Here we can discuss everything related to the 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B) SAM system.

Inside:

Face to face with the turret, having SOC, SSC, SPK, SVR antenna systems (Land Roll), the Karat camera, and the PU in one unit.

Great Hpasp, according to the last photo, is it from historical institute at Lesany?

Thank you again Hpasp!

I hope it's okay if I ask a few questions?

How far along are you in adding the SA-8 to the sim? Have you just started? And do you have an estimated date it'll be complete?

Why did you have to wait until you announced it? Were you getting permission from the Hungarian military or something?

It is from Czech :-)

By the way, what are main differences between AK and AKM versions?

Feels like something between gun or gun-and-missile systems like Shilka and Tunguska, and fixed short-range systems like Neva in terms of capability and envelope.

Gonna be impressive!

Optimization against hoovering targets...

Its okay, I just might not answer.




Not started yet at all.
Just got the required things that makes me available to create it in the future.

Got the doc from the net, the required high quality photos, and most importantly the connection to somebody who launched OSA missiles several times.

Nice addition, Hpasp!

Originally it was planned to be the cheap alternative of the KUB (SA-6).
According to the plans, one KUB (SA-6) regiment armed the tank divisions, while one OSA (SA-8) regiment armed the mechanized divisions.

Due to the protracted development, the KUB become avaiable earlier, and was fielded for almost all mechanized and tank divisions in the Warsaw Pact.

OSA-AK/AKM is the last single digit SAM system, and the most modern and easy to used one.

Is it similar to use as the SA-4?

It was designed by the same engineers, but with almost 10 years difference.
(yes the turret cannot be rotated fully around, an Efremov specialty )

On several usability (user friendliness) features it is closer to the S-300PMU (SA-10B) than the KRUG.
(The OSA-AK preceded the S-300PT with only 4 years)

- First white panel of the SAMSIM
The Shilka and the Dvina used the silver hammer finish.
The Volhov, Neva, Vega, KRUG had the blue paint.
All the latest Soviet/Russian SAM systems, and the OSA has the white design.

- Containerized, solid fueled missile with 12s (!!!) preparation time.
- Missile has huge overload capability, evenly in the whole envelope.
- Automatic guidance method selection.
- Automatic missile preparation.
- Automatic missile selection.
- Integrated SOC.
- Amphibious.
- Acquire target on the move, shoot on short stop.
- Dedicated switch against low RCS targets.

From user point of view, it is only six lamps indicating that 9M33M3 missile is present, instead of the 9M33M2 ...

9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B)


9K33M3 OSA-AKM (SA-8B)


... and the capability to engage hovering helicopters below 25m.

WOW... dear hpasp let me say TNQ to you and your amazing effort !
i though shilka is only short range system on samsim at all but you disturb all of ideas !

so i have several heavy questions during sa-8 .. personally because i never seen any sa-8 with my eyes because my country do not have it even 1

questions:

first of all for taking picture : hungary museum armed with sa-8 for free acces ? or u have to create digital panels ?

1.please say something about sa-8 missiles !
missile speed
missile G forces
how many missile created and design for sa-8 ?

2.sa-8 can fire with what kide of guiding methods ? IR guiding or radar guiding"t/t ? three point ? lead ? half lead?"

3.we can track how many targets at 1 moments ?

4. sa-8 can use p-40 for tracking and aqusition targets or we can just see targets from IADS table ?

1, 9M33M2 speed is about 500m/s.
Three missile types were created during the Cold War,
- 9M33 (original, 4pcs per vehicle)
- 9M33M2 (containerized version with fold-able wings, 6pcs per vehicle)
- 9M33M3 (with radio proxy fuse capable of engaging hovering helos under 25m)

2, The 9M33M2 missile is a radar guided one using T/T of Fi guidance method (automatically selected by the system).

3, The 9K33M2 OSA-AK system has one target, and two missile channels.

4, OSA has own target acquisition radar (SOC), no need for P-40.
OSA battery (4pcs) has one PU-12 vehicle attached, so we will have the plotting board similarly to the Shilka.

tNQ for answering hpasp but two more question


1. what is FI method ? do u have any picture from missile head ? any GSN armed on 9M33 or not ?

2. we will meet photo real panels or digital panels ?

and haPPY NOWROOZ to you sam sim fans and great hpasp

1, Fi is similar to K method on the Volhov.
Missile head, not really got your question, but here it is.


GSN is only used by the Semi Active missiles like the KUB and Vega.
OSA is command guided like the Dvina/Volhov/Neva/KRUG.

2, Real panels.

Hmmm... i read about missile range .... impossible 15km missile range ?

this missile is really smal for flying till 15 km ...

Where???

The 9M33M2 missile has...
- 1,5 .. 10,3km range
- 25 .. 5000m altitude
- 500m/s (Mach1.5) maximum target speed.

Wow, that's a lot of electronics. Much more than I would have guessed.

Why so much?

It's command guided, so no complex sensors. And proximity fuses can fit in a 40mm shell, so that shouldn't take much room.

here wrote max range is 15000m and alt is 12000m
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-8.htm

also here wrote about first variant range is 12000km and for m3 version 15000m range !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K33_Osa

also here
Specifications (9M33[3])
Weight 170 kg
Length 3158 mm
Diameter 209.6 mm
Warhead Frag-HE
Warhead weight 16 kg
Detonation
mechanism Contact and proximity
Propellant Solid propellant rocket motor
Operational
range 15 kilometres (9.3 mi)
Flight altitude 12,000 metres (39,000 ft)
Boost time 2 s boost, then 15 s sustain
Speed 1020 m/s
Guidance
system RF CLOS
Steering
system dual-thrust rocket motor.
Accuracy 5 m
Launch
platform 9P35M2

I would rather trust the official operations manual, than Wiki or FAS...

... but here are some better websites.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K33-Osa.html
http://www.rwd-mb3.de/pages/9k33.htm
http://www.flak11.de/9K33-Start.htm
http://www.rta-4.de/rakete.html

9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) workplace...

Dear hpasp.... Do u have any scenarios for gecko ? In real world how many aircraft at what war killed or hited by gecho ?

Wow, great! Osa will be a perfect addition!

Perhaps the discrepancy in range relates to maximum kinematic vs effective engagement envelope, possibly limited by battery life or other consumables as well as by energy state and manoeuvrability.

wow white panel is very sexy .

hpasp would u want introduce the fire switch to us ?


also one more thing sir :
i see how KUB operators can lock on target .... so locking on target by Gecho near close to Kub or Gecko is different ?

Perhaps the discrepancy in range relates to maximum kinematic vs effective engagement envelope, possibly limited by battery life or other consumables as well as by energy state and manoeuvrability.

Nope, it relates to sharing of incorrect information.

Pretty easy...
... look for a RED button, with the label of PUSK.

deleted...

Dear firend .... Please be carful and understand me and the other side i must say us .... and who loves sam systems ... All of us check this froum for learn about new systems and ask. The questions during next system... And im sure with my basic questions never ever generate any page about any system. So please take it easy and get deep breathe and bee cool till another sam lovers say another basic questions

...also do not forget why we did registered at this froum. Please

Dear All,

OSA SIM will not arrive, at least until the end of 2013, at its best.
Currently Im learning its operation and capabilities, and designing the SIM screens.

Im happy to answer questions about this remarkable system (last single digit SAM), while Im still building up my knowledge.


Originally it was planned as a cheap alternative system to the KUB, having full autonomous operation per vehicle.
When the KUB become available during the 70's, it was fielded in the WarPact at both tank/mechanized divisions.

At last, when the OSA become available in the 80's, WarPact armies started to swap the more expensive KUB regiments with the OSA!!!
(GDR - 2 regiments, Czechoslovakia - 1 regiment, Hungary - never fielded)
The reason was that a KUB regiment had only 5 target channel, utilizing 25 tracked vehicles...
... on the other side, the OSA regiment had 20 target channel (4x of a KUB) with 20 wheeled vehicles.

I have a little idea here, regarding the simulation of PU-12 command post. Normally, it would issue target designations to its subordinating SAMs and ZSUs by the voice via radio. As simulating this would be too cumbersome for SAM Sim, I was thinking about issuing them in text form. At plotting board you would select the desired target as you do now with IADS, but instead of automatic traget designation, you would receive guidance in text form, something like "azimuth 270, distance 32, altitude 6", with the same interval as with the real PU-12. I think this would be interesting.

Could you roughly describe the procedure to shoot down a target with the SA-8?

It doesn't have a separate a target designating radar like the SA-4, so are targets found like the ZSU-23-4?

Then just lock angle, lock range, and fire a missile or two?

dear hpasp.... i see somthing different in this pannels and i never ever seen like it at any samsim systems !
please check the rightest panel ... i see somthing yellow circle .... what is it ?

usually in our systems we had one tracking scope and one range finder ... i guess we will meet something different system in future

The 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B) turret is quite complex, so first we need to understand it.



1, SOC (Target Acquisition Radar) has three elevation beams (contrary to the 4 elevation beams of the 1S12 [Long Track]).
Range options: 0-15km (against choppers), 0-35km, 10-45km
33 rotation per min.
2, NRZ (IFF)
3, SSC (mono-pulse, pencil beam Target Tracking Radar), with a range of 28km.
4, SVR (Missile Tracking Radar - Narrow Beam)
5, SPK (Missile Command Transmitter antenna)
6, SVR (Missile Tracking Radar - Wide Beam)
7, Karat Camera (Optical Target Tracking)

Indicators:

1, SSC range indicator.


2, SOC azimuth/range indicator.


3, TV.
4, SSC elevation/range indicator.

im not sure sa-8 mechanim work like sa-4 mechanism.

Ssc elevation / range indicator is strange for me.... We dont have it till now but im sure i see something like this indicator in straight flush radar room (kub). Right hpasp?

So i guess at first step in sa-8
1. we need data from IADS
2. also find and lock on target with target acquisition scope
3. finding target elevation with scc elevation/range indicator
4. at the end locking on target range on range finder indicator
5. And PUSK ?


Oooof im confuse

Working stations (left - middle - right): Range Operator - Azimuth Operator - Elevation Operator

1, check on the blotting board, if the target is approached at least 50km. [Battery commander in the PU-12]
2, switch on high voltage of the SOC. [Azimuth Operator]
3, acquire the target in azimuth with the SSC boresight line displayed on the SOC azimuth/range indicator. [Azimuth Operator]
4, move the range boresight of the SSC to the target mark on the SOC azimuth/range indicator. [Range Operator]
5, switch on high voltage of the SSC. [Range Operator]
6, acquire the target in elevation on the SSC elevation/range indicator. [Elevation Operator]
7, acquire the target in range on the SSC range indicator. [Range Operator]
8, decide if we want to launch 1 or 2 missiles. [Elevation Operator]
9, when the target approaches the firing zone, missiles automatically prepared. [Elevation Operator]
10, fire 1 or 2 missiles. [Elevation Operator]

Hmmm... Here is basic question .... Why gecko designer creted elevtion/range indicator for gecho ? Wht is the logical reason for this decision ?
For example GANEF is movable and use comand guided method for attack like gecko .... So why them use new element as new indicator inside the gecko ? And why we do not have it in GANEF ?

For recieve high accurecy ?

The KRUG IPP indicator displays the SNR beams only, while the OSA has SOC azimuth/range indicator.
(no place left for the elevation information, as the OSA SOC azimuth/range indicator is closer to the P-18 at the Volhov)

So .... You meant was gecho soc do not work like p-40 mechnism ? We cant choose the target and sort it to the scc ?
Like sa-4 tracking mechanism .... choose target from p-40 indicator and sort it with one click to the IPP indicator ?

Hpasp,

I heard this is not a 360 turret. How does it operate or what are it's limitation?

As I mentioned earlier, the OSA SOC azimuth/range indicator is closer to the P-18 indicator of the Volhov.

While the SOC is rotating 33/min, the SSC line can be rotated (aimed) on the target in azimuth, just like the perebros line at the P-18.

±330° it is electronically limited, not like the KRUG, where you can kill the system by over-rotating.

Those are very good questions that I would also like to know the answer.


Thanks in advance for replies...

The 9K33M2 OSA-AK was exported from 1980.

Inside of the WarPact...

GDR (East Germany) - two regiments
1984 FRR-8 in Schwerin
1987 FRR-11 in Weißenfels

Czechoslovakia - one regiment
1984 5. protiletadlový pluk Žatec

Romania - two regiments
1989

Poland - four regiments
1980 8 pplot in Koszalin
1982 4 pplot in Czerwinsk
1984 124 pplot in Szczecin
1987 69 pplot in Leszna

Bulgaria - two regiments
1982 50 regiment Boyanovo
1988 49 regiment Blagoevgrad

Hungary - never fielded


Outside of the WarPact, Syria '82, Angola '83 & '87~88, Libya '86, and Iraq '91 are the countries, where it was fielded in wartime situation, during the Cold War.

Here is some Easter Egg patch...
http://www.mediafire.com/?2aavi4919229t7d

Hpasp , would u introduce sa-8 ashuluk targets ? We will have meteor or something else ?

Thanks for the reply Hpasp.

BTW, are there any confirm kills (by the SA-8) in any of those conflicts?


Looking into the list of conflicts, IMO the most interesting of those conflicts that could be modeled in SAM simulator would (again IMO) be 1991 Iraq (Desert Storm). Not only would allow a realistic SA-8 modeling but we could also have other SAMs (and Air Defence units) that are already modeled in SAM Simulator. Those SAMs would be the SA-2E, SA-3 and Shilka - And by the way, there are confirmed kills by the SA-2E and SA-3 (and also Shilka if I'm not mistaken) during Desert Storm.
Resuming, I'm requesting a Desert Storm scenario for SAM Simulator

Upper: Time in seconds
Lower" Distance in meters:

Great, Chinese!

Some corrected issues...
http://www.mediafire.com/?cq8xfwmdwrl1hh6

The General scenarios will be available for OSA also.
Currently Im learning about the Angola-South Africa War, where...
Operation Askari
Operation Modular
Operation Hooper
Operation Packer
...was fought between FAPLA-CUBAN-SOVIET against SADF-UNITA.

OSA was fielded in these bush-wars, and there are some reports of shooting some SAAF planes.
(I take these reports with a grain of salt...)

At the Bekaa valley, OSA shot some IDF planes, but this should be further investigated.

Ashuluk, and Ustka should be available for the OSA.

Desert Storm is a War, I would love to include into SAMSIM, just I not seen any air-war maps...

Hmmm, where did you get it?

The 9M33M2 missile speed is heavily depending on the overload, the missile should pull.
Generally the booster part of the engine accelerates it into 500m/s (Mach1.5) right after launch.
The big difference from the earlier SAM systems (used to over accelerate), is that the sustainer is keeping this speed over most of the flight envelope.
If the target maneuvers hard, than the 9M33M2 would follow it, and its speed could drop till 100m/s depending on the required overload.

My main question is still open to everyone...
... how do you like the new '80s white Soviet SAM panel design, compared to the earlier silver/blue one?



In my feeling, the OSA is the first Soviet SAM system where Man-Machine-Interface was considered during the design at least.
Most of the indicators and switches are in logical order, compared to the SA-2/3 designs, where developers put switches in places, just because there were empty place on that instrument...

I like this new design more, at least it looks modern and clean :-)

Yes, this is good design..

Acording to everything that I read about the 1982 Bekaa Valley operations (Operation Mole Cricket) NO IDF fixed-wing aircraft seem to have been shot down.

Nevertheless the Angola-South Africa scenarios seems promissing!

Hpasp , would u introduce sa-8 ashuluk targets ? We will have meteor or something else ?



and one thing is still here and i love to say it... you said you minde still open so i want say somthing during designing of sa-8 panels.... hpasp ... would u want create sceen of scope (SOC) and SCC with ultra high details of colors ? this system is really great evolution at samsim systems and i hope at the future we will see something different with graphical crysis

From Jane's Land Based Air Defence book...

First recorded combat use was in the Bekaa Valley, ... in late July 1982, when Israeli aircraft destroyed three of these systems belonging to the Syrians, but the fourth SPU shot down an Israeli F-4E Phantom.
...
During the 1987/88 battles in Angola against the SAAF, the FAPLA Brigade SAM units, equipped with the SA-8, destroyed two Seeker RPVs and an Aermacchi/Aeritalia AM-3C Bosbok...

Very interesting information (which I didn't know). Thanks for the information Hpasp!

Just for preparation...

What caused the spirals on the target acquisition radar? Another radar on the same frequency causing interferences?

The good old Range Gate Pull Off (RGPO) Range Deception Jamming against the SOC.

Was it missed by me only, that the war for Cuito Cuanavale (1987~88) was the biggest battle after World War-II on the African continent???



Fought by...

FAPLA (Forças Armadas Populares de Libertação de Angola)
CUBAN - 65'000 leaded by Castro
SOVIET - 2'500 advisor

... against ...

UNITA (União Nacional para a Independência Total de Angola) - 30'000
SADF - 3'500 South African Defense Forces

dear hpasp... are u play write coding or you still reading the manual operation?

no panel design yet ?

This one...

I suggested this conflict already earlier this year in the "Suggestion and Ideas" thread - here a link to my post with some links to other sources as well, also listing some AA kills.

In 0.926.7, lots of the switches move now, and a few of them are hidden beneith switch covers. Are all these moving switches going to be simulated? The SA-8 might be more complicated than I thought, which is great!

Also some of the dials are very small. If they're important, they might be too small to read.

i saw that
my meant was online panel
dear hpasp would u do a favor to us ===> and show the SSC panel when system is online ? please

There are 4 buttons under cover, and one that is locked (can be unlocked), plus two wheels so far.


What is moving now, that is planned to be alive when the OSA will be released.
(several of those are only used for emergency procedures)



I will working on it. (also the labels are small, but they will stay as they are in the real system)

No, as I do not have any.
This is where the sim stands now.

First I create the switch movements, and only after it I will create indicators.
Currently I'm working on the Range wheel indicator.

Exactly this is why it will be included...

Regarding label size - will panels look as they are now or will they be divided to more vertical parts like with other systems in SAMSIM for better readability?

They will look like as of now.

OSA conundrum...


Who can decipher the meaning of these status indicator lamps of the 2nd firing channel?
(KRUG experts has advantage! Those who served on the OSA, please be quiet!)



I hope, that the general SAM knowledge of this community, could help you to solve this quiz.

SCHOD - missile just left the starting rail
ZACHVAT - missile is being tracked
SP. L. - missile tracked by medium sized beam?
UZKIJ LUC - missile tracked by narrow beam
K3 - K3 command transmitted
GOTOV SPK - missile guidance system ready for fire
VKL VYS - ? something enabled, VYS like VYSOKOJE - high voltage?
1 (2 and 3) - II - ? I thought it has to do something with missiles launched, but OSA can guide only two missiles.... Maybe missiles in launching containers?

(Descent) (lock) (Drink A Beer...?) (Narrow Beam) (K, maybe constant elevation like SA-2?)

(Missile ready) (No idea) (1-ll) (2-ll) (3-ll) No idea either.


I really shouldn't be allowed near SA-8s.

Regarding the 1, 2, 3 - II - it definitely must be indication of missiles in containers - I thought of AKM version which has different indicators above panel. AK has indicators for missile presence here in this panel.

Indicators are in different order...

9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko)



9K33M3 OSA-AKM (SA-8B Gecko)



But Im interested in the 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko)!

Yes, I am writing about AK version :-) I have never been in OSA so I was a little confused (only in the case of these three indicators) :-)
Then 1 - II, 2 - II and 3 - II are lights for missile availability for the second channel.

Were you able to find all 5 guarded button/switch?

what about osa missile kill zone ? how many meters needed for one shot and one kill ?

indicator illumination + range indicator

Do not really understand your question...

... OSA kill zone:

Target speed 0..300m/s
Altitude 25..5000m
Distance 1500..10300m
Parameter 6000m

Target speed 300..500m/s
Altitude 100..5000m
Distance 1500..10000m
Parameter 4000m

Target speed 0..360km/h (!!!)
Altitude 10..25m
Distance 2000..6500m

Kill radius/Hit radius of the warhead...?

yes yes .... my meant was kill radius dears

Almost

SCHOD - (Started) - missile just left the starting rail, SVR (missile tracking system) is in wide beam mode
ZAHVAT - (Captured) - missile is captured by the SVR in wide beam mode
SR. L. - (Medium Beam) - missile is tracked by the SVR in medium beam mode
UZKIJ LUC - (Narrow Beam) - missile is tracked (and guided) by the SVR in narrow beam mode
K3 - K3 command transmitted, radio proxy fuse is activated

If you launch a missile, the indications will be lighted, one after another...

GOTOV SPK - (SPK ready) SPK (missile guidance system) is ready for missile guidance
VKL VYS - (High On) High voltage of the SPK is on (might be transmitting to EKV)
1/2/3 - II Indicate, missile in the container on the 2nd PU (left). It flashes, if the missile gyro is overheated.
At the OSA-AKM, the additional lamp is indicating the 9M33M3 type of missile.
The OSA-AK can use the 9M33M2 missile only, while the OSA-AKM could use the 9M33M2 or the 9M33M3 missile also.

9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko)



9K33M3 OSA-AKM (SA-8B Gecko)

Smaller (just 14,27kg) than the earlies systems depicted in the SAMSIM, but the 9M33M2 has much greater maneuverability to achieve direct hit...

With PODSVET (illumination) they are readable...

one screen with 2 panels ?
is it new situation on samsim?

Nice to see some things lit up!

Thanks for the update pictures. Is development going okay?

Yes, there will be 2 screens for the 3 operator panel.

Screen "Z/Y" will have the Range Officer + Azimuth Officer panel
Screen "X" will have the Azimuth Officer + Elevation Officer panel
Screen "C" will show the Plotting Board

During target acquisition, the operators should watch not only own, but at their neighbor screen also.

Hmmm


dear hpasp why you do not talk about the new revolutions on samsim ?
anything else that we must know about new situations ?

what about the other systems ??? they upgrade like sa-8 screens or just it ?

Actually there is no radius because the blast has a 60deg. conical shape .
K3 detonates the warhead as soon as the target is inside the above cone and less than 12m.

ePap

Superb !!!
I feel like been inside an OSA-akm,again...
Thank you so much Hpasp.

ePap

Thanks, and wellcome to the forum!


This is not the AKM, rather the older AK.
(high voltage indicator beside the SOC is at a different position, and some other differences.)

Normal mode, K3 is transmitted 120m before the missile reaches the target. It aims the radio proxy fuse, and that detonates the warhead.
In case of jamming target, the K3 is signaled parallel with the Narrow Beam indication.

Ops, hang fire (one missile email out).Try again...

Thank you Hpasp .
K3 is also energized from the off/jamming switch manually in case we have jamming after
Firing a missile,if I remember well.

Best regards
ePap

True?

Osa was originally planned as a cheap alternative for the KUB.
KUB would arm the tank divisions, while Osa would arm the mechanized divisions.
As Osa development was delayed, mostly all divisions were armed with the KUB.

The Osa regiment has 7 battery; 1 HQ, 5 firing battery, and 1 technical battery.

OSA Regiment HQ
2 x PU-12M, 1RL128D, P-18, P-19, PRV-16

5x Osa firing battery
5x (PU-12M, 4x 9A33BM2, 2x 9T217BM2, 9V210BM2, 9F372M2)

Technical battery
9F16M2, 1525AM, 9V242, UKS-400

http://www.flak11.de/9K33-Start.htm

What was/is the use of the "Compressed Air Tanker ZiL-131" ?

My Unit took all flak11 equipment in 1993 !!!

Hello ePap, have you fired a missile with Osa? You could be useful in SAMSIM testing :-)

At least 30 of them.

Question, and that someone had Shot OSA, it is not done.

Question for Hpasp, where such release is planned this year?

When the output is approximately?

Well, at least there is some plan.

Great

Nobody ???

To be more precise, the theoretical OSA regiment OOB is.
(not all countries fielded all of this.)



I do not seen this...
9G22M1 1 Compressed Air Tanker ZiL-131
... here. It might been a local specialty.