Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 03/23/1309:53 AM
Feels like something between gun or gun-and-missile systems like Shilka and Tunguska, and fixed short-range systems like Neva in terms of capability and envelope.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 03/23/1311:03 AM
Originally Posted By: JWNoctis
Feels like something between gun or gun-and-missile systems like Shilka and Tunguska, and fixed short-range systems like Neva in terms of capability and envelope.
Gonna be impressive!
Originally it was planned to be the cheap alternative of the KUB (SA-6). According to the plans, one KUB (SA-6) regiment armed the tank divisions, while one OSA (SA-8) regiment armed the mechanized divisions.
Due to the protracted development, the KUB become avaiable earlier, and was fielded for almost all mechanized and tank divisions in the Warsaw Pact.
OSA-AK/AKM is the last single digit SAM system, and the most modern and easy to used one.
It was designed by the same engineers, but with almost 10 years difference. (yes the turret cannot be rotated fully around, an Efremov specialty )
On several usability (user friendliness) features it is closer to the S-300PMU (SA-10B) than the KRUG. (The OSA-AK preceded the S-300PT with only 4 years)
- First white panel of the SAMSIM The Shilka and the Dvina used the silver hammer finish. The Volhov, Neva, Vega, KRUG had the blue paint. All the latest Soviet/Russian SAM systems, and the OSA has the white design.
- Containerized, solid fueled missile with 12s (!!!) preparation time. - Missile has huge overload capability, evenly in the whole envelope. - Automatic guidance method selection. - Automatic missile preparation. - Automatic missile selection. - Integrated SOC. - Amphibious. - Acquire target on the move, shoot on short stop. - Dedicated switch against low RCS targets.
WOW... dear hpasp let me say TNQ to you and your amazing effort ! i though shilka is only short range system on samsim at all but you disturb all of ideas !
so i have several heavy questions during sa-8 .. personally because i never seen any sa-8 with my eyes because my country do not have it even 1
questions:
first of all for taking picture : hungary museum armed with sa-8 for free acces ? or u have to create digital panels ?
1.please say something about sa-8 missiles ! missile speed missile G forces how many missile created and design for sa-8 ?
2.sa-8 can fire with what kide of guiding methods ? IR guiding or radar guiding"t/t ? three point ? lead ? half lead?"
3.we can track how many targets at 1 moments ?
4. sa-8 can use p-40 for tracking and aqusition targets or we can just see targets from IADS table ?
WOW... dear hpasp let me say TNQ to you and your amazing effort ! i though shilka is only short range system on samsim at all but you disturb all of ideas !
so i have several heavy questions during sa-8 .. personally because i never seen any sa-8 with my eyes because my country do not have it even 1
questions:
first of all for taking picture : hungary museum armed with sa-8 for free acces ? or u have to create digital panels ?
1.please say something about sa-8 missiles ! missile speed missile G forces how many missile created and design for sa-8 ?
2.this system can fire missile with sitch method ? IR guiding or radar guiding"t/t ? three point ? lead ? half lead?"
3.this system can fire how many missiles to target ? and sa-8 can tracking how many targets at one time ?
4. sa-8 can use p-40 for tracking and aqusition targets or we can just see targets from IADS table ?
1, 9M33M2 speed is about 500m/s. Three missile types were created during the Cold War, - 9M33 (original, 4pcs per vehicle) - 9M33M2 (containerized version with fold-able wings, 6pcs per vehicle) - 9M33M3 (with radio proxy fuse capable of engaging hovering helos under 25m)
2, The 9M33M2 missile is a radar guided one using T/T of Fi guidance method (automatically selected by the system).
3, The 9K33M2 OSA-AK system has one target, and two missile channels.
4, OSA has own target acquisition radar (SOC), no need for P-40. OSA battery (4pcs) has one PU-12 vehicle attached, so we will have the plotting board similarly to the Shilka.
also here Specifications (9M33[3]) Weight 170 kg Length 3158 mm Diameter 209.6 mm Warhead Frag-HE Warhead weight 16 kg Detonation mechanism Contact and proximity Propellant Solid propellant rocket motor Operational range 15 kilometres (9.3 mi) Flight altitude 12,000 metres (39,000 ft) Boost time 2 s boost, then 15 s sustain Speed 1020 m/s Guidance system RF CLOS Steering system dual-thrust rocket motor. Accuracy 5 m Launch platform 9P35M2
Perhaps the discrepancy in range relates to maximum kinematic vs effective engagement envelope, possibly limited by battery life or other consumables as well as by energy state and manoeuvrability.
Perhaps the discrepancy in range relates to maximum kinematic vs effective engagement envelope, possibly limited by battery life or other consumables as well as by energy state and manoeuvrability.
Nope, it relates to sharing of incorrect information.
Let's see if Faroukh could generate 20+ pages with trash talking in this topic until SA-8B introduction in SAMsim...
Dear firend .... Please be carful and understand me and the other side i must say us .... and who loves sam systems ... All of us check this froum for learn about new systems and ask. The questions during next system... And im sure with my basic questions never ever generate any page about any system. So please take it easy and get deep breathe and bee cool till another sam lovers say another basic questions
...also do not forget why we did registered at this froum. Please
OSA SIM will not arrive, at least until the end of 2013, at its best. Currently Im learning its operation and capabilities, and designing the SIM screens.
Im happy to answer questions about this remarkable system (last single digit SAM), while Im still building up my knowledge.
Originally it was planned as a cheap alternative system to the KUB, having full autonomous operation per vehicle. When the KUB become available during the 70's, it was fielded in the WarPact at both tank/mechanized divisions.
At last, when the OSA become available in the 80's, WarPact armies started to swap the more expensive KUB regiments with the OSA!!! (GDR - 2 regiments, Czechoslovakia - 1 regiment, Hungary - never fielded) The reason was that a KUB regiment had only 5 target channel, utilizing 25 tracked vehicles... ... on the other side, the OSA regiment had 20 target channel (4x of a KUB) with 20 wheeled vehicles.
I have a little idea here, regarding the simulation of PU-12 command post. Normally, it would issue target designations to its subordinating SAMs and ZSUs by the voice via radio. As simulating this would be too cumbersome for SAM Sim, I was thinking about issuing them in text form. At plotting board you would select the desired target as you do now with IADS, but instead of automatic traget designation, you would receive guidance in text form, something like "azimuth 270, distance 32, altitude 6", with the same interval as with the real PU-12. I think this would be interesting.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 03/26/1306:17 AM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) workplace...
dear hpasp.... i see somthing different in this pannels and i never ever seen like it at any samsim systems ! please check the rightest panel ... i see somthing yellow circle .... what is it ?
usually in our systems we had one tracking scope and one range finder ... i guess we will meet something different system in future
Could you roughly describe the procedure to shoot down a target with the SA-8? It doesn't have a separate a target designating radar like the SA-4, so are targets found like the ZSU-23-4? Then just lock angle, lock range, and fire a missile or two?
The 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B) turret is quite complex, so first we need to understand it.
1, SOC (Target Acquisition Radar) has three elevation beams (contrary to the 4 elevation beams of the 1S12 [Long Track]). Range options: 0-15km (against choppers), 0-35km, 10-45km 33 rotation per min. 2, NRZ (IFF) 3, SSC (mono-pulse, pencil beam Target Tracking Radar), with a range of 28km. 4, SVR (Missile Tracking Radar - Narrow Beam) 5, SPK (Missile Command Transmitter antenna) 6, SVR (Missile Tracking Radar - Wide Beam) 7, Karat Camera (Optical Target Tracking)
im not sure sa-8 mechanim work like sa-4 mechanism.
Ssc elevation / range indicator is strange for me.... We dont have it till now but im sure i see something like this indicator in straight flush radar room (kub). Right hpasp?
So i guess at first step in sa-8 1. we need data from IADS 2. also find and lock on target with target acquisition scope 3. finding target elevation with scc elevation/range indicator 4. at the end locking on target range on range finder indicator 5. And PUSK ?
Working stations (left - middle - right): Range Operator - Azimuth Operator - Elevation Operator
1, check on the blotting board, if the target is approached at least 50km. [Battery commander in the PU-12] 2, switch on high voltage of the SOC. [Azimuth Operator] 3, acquire the target in azimuth with the SSC boresight line displayed on the SOC azimuth/range indicator. [Azimuth Operator] 4, move the range boresight of the SSC to the target mark on the SOC azimuth/range indicator. [Range Operator] 5, switch on high voltage of the SSC. [Range Operator] 6, acquire the target in elevation on the SSC elevation/range indicator. [Elevation Operator] 7, acquire the target in range on the SSC range indicator. [Range Operator] 8, decide if we want to launch 1 or 2 missiles. [Elevation Operator] 9, when the target approaches the firing zone, missiles automatically prepared. [Elevation Operator] 10, fire 1 or 2 missiles. [Elevation Operator]
Hmmm... Here is basic question .... Why gecko designer creted elevtion/range indicator for gecho ? Wht is the logical reason for this decision ? For example GANEF is movable and use comand guided method for attack like gecko .... So why them use new element as new indicator inside the gecko ? And why we do not have it in GANEF ?
Hmmm... Here is basic question .... Why gecko designer creted elevtion/range indicator for gecho ? Wht is the logical reason for this decision ? For example GANEF is movable and use comand guided method for attack like gecko .... So why them use new element as new indicator inside the gecko ? And why we do not have it in GANEF ?
For recieve high accurecy ?
The KRUG IPP indicator displays the SNR beams only, while the OSA has SOC azimuth/range indicator. (no place left for the elevation information, as the OSA SOC azimuth/range indicator is closer to the P-18 at the Volhov)
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 03/27/1307:15 AM
So .... You meant was gecho soc do not work like p-40 mechnism ? We cant choose the target and sort it to the scc ? Like sa-4 tracking mechanism .... choose target from p-40 indicator and sort it with one click to the IPP indicator ?
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 03/28/1308:13 AM
Originally Posted By: farokh
So .... You meant was gecho soc do not work like p-40 mechnism ? We cant choose the target and sort it to the scc ? Like sa-4 tracking mechanism .... choose target from p-40 indicator and sort it with one click to the IPP indicator ?
As I mentioned earlier, the OSA SOC azimuth/range indicator is closer to the P-18 indicator of the Volhov.
While the SOC is rotating 33/min, the SSC line can be rotated (aimed) on the target in azimuth, just like the perebros line at the P-18.
Outside of the WarPact, Syria '82, Angola '83 & '87~88, Libya '86, and Iraq '91 are the countries, where it was fielded in wartime situation, during the Cold War.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 03/30/1311:29 AM
Thanks for the reply Hpasp.
BTW, are there any confirm kills (by the SA-8) in any of those conflicts?
Looking into the list of conflicts, IMO the most interesting of those conflicts that could be modeled in SAM simulator would (again IMO) be 1991 Iraq (Desert Storm). Not only would allow a realistic SA-8 modeling but we could also have other SAMs (and Air Defence units) that are already modeled in SAM Simulator. Those SAMs would be the SA-2E, SA-3 and Shilka - And by the way, there are confirmed kills by the SA-2E and SA-3 (and also Shilka if I'm not mistaken) during Desert Storm. Resuming, I'm requesting a Desert Storm scenario for SAM Simulator
Dear hpasp.... Do u have any scenarios for gecko ? In real world how many aircraft at what war killed or hited by gecho ?
Those are very good questions that I would also like to know the answer. Thanks in advance for replies...
The General scenarios will be available for OSA also. Currently Im learning about the Angola-South Africa War, where... Operation Askari Operation Modular Operation Hooper Operation Packer ...was fought between FAPLA-CUBAN-SOVIET against SADF-UNITA.
OSA was fielded in these bush-wars, and there are some reports of shooting some SAAF planes. (I take these reports with a grain of salt...)
At the Bekaa valley, OSA shot some IDF planes, but this should be further investigated.
Ashuluk, and Ustka should be available for the OSA.
Desert Storm is a War, I would love to include into SAMSIM, just I not seen any air-war maps...
The 9M33M2 missile speed is heavily depending on the overload, the missile should pull. Generally the booster part of the engine accelerates it into 500m/s (Mach1.5) right after launch. The big difference from the earlier SAM systems (used to over accelerate), is that the sustainer is keeping this speed over most of the flight envelope. If the target maneuvers hard, than the 9M33M2 would follow it, and its speed could drop till 100m/s depending on the required overload.
My main question is still open to everyone... ... how do you like the new '80s white Soviet SAM panel design, compared to the earlier silver/blue one?
In my feeling, the OSA is the first Soviet SAM system where Man-Machine-Interface was considered during the design at least. Most of the indicators and switches are in logical order, compared to the SA-2/3 designs, where developers put switches in places, just because there were empty place on that instrument...
At the Bekaa valley, OSA shot some IDF planes, but this should be further investigated.
Acording to everything that I read about the 1982 Bekaa Valley operations (Operation Mole Cricket) NO IDF fixed-wing aircraft seem to have been shot down.
Nevertheless the Angola-South Africa scenarios seems promissing!
Hpasp , would u introduce sa-8 ashuluk targets ? We will have meteor or something else ?
and one thing is still here and i love to say it... you said you minde still open so i want say somthing during designing of sa-8 panels.... hpasp ... would u want create sceen of scope (SOC) and SCC with ultra high details of colors ? this system is really great evolution at samsim systems and i hope at the future we will see something different with graphical crysis
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
My main question is still open to everyone... ... how do you like the new '80s white Soviet SAM panel design, compared to the earlier silver/blue one?
In my feeling, the OSA is the first Soviet SAM system where Man-Machine-Interface was considered during the design at least. Most of the indicators and switches are in logical order, compared to the SA-2/3 designs, where developers put switches in places, just because there were empty place on that instrument...
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 03/31/1311:13 AM
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
At the Bekaa valley, OSA shot some IDF planes, but this should be further investigated.
Acording to everything that I read about the 1982 Bekaa Valley operations (Operation Mole Cricket) NO IDF fixed-wing aircraft seem to have been shot down.
Nevertheless the Angola-South Africa scenarios seems promissing!
From Jane's Land Based Air Defence book...
First recorded combat use was in the Bekaa Valley, ... in late July 1982, when Israeli aircraft destroyed three of these systems belonging to the Syrians, but the fourth SPU shot down an Israeli F-4E Phantom. ... During the 1987/88 battles in Angola against the SAAF, the FAPLA Brigade SAM units, equipped with the SA-8, destroyed two Seeker RPVs and an Aermacchi/Aeritalia AM-3C Bosbok...
First recorded combat use was in the Bekaa Valley, ... in late July 1982, when Israeli aircraft destroyed three of these systems belonging to the Syrians, but the fourth SPU shot down an Israeli F-4E Phantom. ... During the 1987/88 battles in Angola against the SAAF, the FAPLA Brigade SAM units, equipped with the SA-8, destroyed two Seeker RPVs and an Aermacchi/Aeritalia AM-3C Bosbok...
Very interesting information (which I didn't know). Thanks for the information Hpasp!
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/22/1308:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Was it missed by me only, that the war for Cuito Cuanavale (1987~88) was the biggest battle after World War-II on the African continent??? ... Fought by...
FAPLA (Forças Armadas Populares de Libertação de Angola) CUBAN - 65'000 leaded by Castro SOVIET - 2'500 advisor
... against ...
UNITA (União Nacional para a Independência Total de Angola) - 30'000 SADF - 3'500 South African Defense Forces
I suggested this conflict already earlier this year in the "Suggestion and Ideas" thread - here a link to my post with some links to other sources as well, also listing some AA kills.
In 0.926.7, lots of the switches move now, and a few of them are hidden beneith switch covers. Are all these moving switches going to be simulated? The SA-8 might be more complicated than I thought, which is great!
Also some of the dials are very small. If they're important, they might be too small to read.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/24/1307:28 AM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
In 0.926.7, lots of the switches move now, and a few of them are hidden beneith switch covers. Are all these moving switches going to be simulated? The SA-8 might be more complicated than I thought, which is great!
There are 4 buttons under cover, and one that is locked (can be unlocked), plus two wheels so far.
What is moving now, that is planned to be alive when the OSA will be released. (several of those are only used for emergency procedures)
Originally Posted By: Mdore
Also some of the dials are very small. If they're important, they might be too small to read.
I will working on it. (also the labels are small, but they will stay as they are in the real system)
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/24/1309:04 AM
Originally Posted By: WhoCares
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Was it missed by me only, that the war for Cuito Cuanavale (1987~88) was the biggest battle after World War-II on the African continent??? ... Fought by...
FAPLA (Forças Armadas Populares de Libertação de Angola) CUBAN - 65'000 leaded by Castro SOVIET - 2'500 advisor
... against ...
UNITA (União Nacional para a Independência Total de Angola) - 30'000 SADF - 3'500 South African Defense Forces
I suggested this conflict already earlier this year in the "Suggestion and Ideas" thread - here a link to my post with some links to other sources as well, also listing some AA kills.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/24/1311:33 AM
Regarding label size - will panels look as they are now or will they be divided to more vertical parts like with other systems in SAMSIM for better readability?
Regarding label size - will panels look as they are now or will they be divided to more vertical parts like with other systems in SAMSIM for better readability?
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/26/1310:50 AM
OSA conundrum...
Who can decipher the meaning of these status indicator lamps of the 2nd firing channel? (KRUG experts has advantage! Those who served on the OSA, please be quiet!)
I hope, that the general SAM knowledge of this community, could help you to solve this quiz.
SCHOD - missile just left the starting rail ZACHVAT - missile is being tracked SP. L. - missile tracked by medium sized beam? UZKIJ LUC - missile tracked by narrow beam K3 - K3 command transmitted GOTOV SPK - missile guidance system ready for fire VKL VYS - ? something enabled, VYS like VYSOKOJE - high voltage? 1 (2 and 3) - II - ? I thought it has to do something with missiles launched, but OSA can guide only two missiles.... Maybe missiles in launching containers?
Regarding the 1, 2, 3 - II - it definitely must be indication of missiles in containers - I thought of AKM version which has different indicators above panel. AK has indicators for missile presence here in this panel.
Regarding the 1, 2, 3 - II - it definitely must be indication of missiles in containers - I thought of AKM version which has different indicators above panel. AK has indicators for missile presence here in this panel.
Indicators are in different order...
9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko)
9K33M3 OSA-AKM (SA-8B Gecko)
But Im interested in the 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko)!
Yes, I am writing about AK version :-) I have never been in OSA so I was a little confused (only in the case of these three indicators) :-) Then 1 - II, 2 - II and 3 - II are lights for missile availability for the second channel.
SHOD - missile just left the starting rail ZACHVAT - missile is being tracked SP. L. - missile tracked by medium sized beam? UZKIJ LUC - missile tracked by narrow beam K3 - K3 command transmitted GOTOV SPK - missile guidance system ready for fire VKL VYS - ? something enabled, VYS like VYSOKOJE - high voltage? 1 (2 and 3) - II - ? I thought it has to do something with missiles launched, but OSA can guide only two missiles.... Maybe missiles in launching containers?
Almost
SCHOD - (Started) - missile just left the starting rail, SVR (missile tracking system) is in wide beam mode ZAHVAT - (Captured) - missile is captured by the SVR in wide beam mode SR. L. - (Medium Beam) - missile is tracked by the SVR in medium beam mode UZKIJ LUC - (Narrow Beam) - missile is tracked (and guided) by the SVR in narrow beam mode K3 - K3 command transmitted, radio proxy fuse is activated
If you launch a missile, the indications will be lighted, one after another...
GOTOV SPK - (SPK ready) SPK (missile guidance system) is ready for missile guidance VKL VYS - (High On) High voltage of the SPK is on (might be transmitting to EKV) 1/2/3 - II Indicate, missile in the container on the 2nd PU (left). It flashes, if the missile gyro is overheated. At the OSA-AKM, the additional lamp is indicating the 9M33M3 type of missile. The OSA-AK can use the 9M33M2 missile only, while the OSA-AKM could use the 9M33M2 or the 9M33M3 missile also.
In 0.926.7, lots of the switches move now, and a few of them are hidden beneith switch covers. Are all these moving switches going to be simulated? The SA-8 might be more complicated than I thought, which is great!
Also some of the dials are very small. If they're important, they might be too small to read.
In 0.926.7, lots of the switches move now, and a few of them are hidden beneith switch covers. Are all these moving switches going to be simulated? The SA-8 might be more complicated than I thought, which is great!
Also some of the dials are very small. If they're important, they might be too small to read.
With PODSVET (illumination) they are readable...
one screen with 2 panels ? is it new situation on samsim?
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/06/1311:21 AM
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Mdore
In 0.926.7, lots of the switches move now, and a few of them are hidden beneith switch covers. Are all these moving switches going to be simulated? The SA-8 might be more complicated than I thought, which is great!
Also some of the dials are very small. If they're important, they might be too small to read.
With PODSVET (illumination) they are readable...
Click to reveal..
one screen with 2 panels ? is it new situation on samsim?
Yes, there will be 2 screens for the 3 operator panel.
Screen "Z/Y" will have the Range Officer + Azimuth Officer panel Screen "X" will have the Azimuth Officer + Elevation Officer panel Screen "C" will show the Plotting Board
During target acquisition, the operators should watch not only own, but at their neighbor screen also.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/07/1306:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: farokh
what about osa missile kill zone ? how many meters needed for one shot and one kill ?
Do not really understand your question...
Kill radius/Hit radius of the warhead...?
yes yes .... my meant was kill radius dears
Smaller (just 14,27kg) than the earlies systems depicted in the SAMSIM, but the 9M33M2 has much greater maneuverability to achieve direct hit...
Actually there is no radius because the blast has a 60deg. conical shape . K3 detonates the warhead as soon as the target is inside the above cone and less than 12m.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/07/1306:51 AM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Mdore
In 0.926.7, lots of the switches move now, and a few of them are hidden beneith switch covers. Are all these moving switches going to be simulated? The SA-8 might be more complicated than I thought, which is great!
Also some of the dials are very small. If they're important, they might be too small to read.
With PODSVET (illumination) they are readable...
Superb !!! I feel like been inside an OSA-akm,again... Thank you so much Hpasp.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/07/1309:32 AM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Mdore
In 0.926.7, lots of the switches move now, and a few of them are hidden beneith switch covers. Are all these moving switches going to be simulated? The SA-8 might be more complicated than I thought, which is great!
Also some of the dials are very small. If they're important, they might be too small to read.
With PODSVET (illumination) they are readable...
Click to reveal..
Superb !!! I feel like been inside an OSA-akm,again... Thank you so much Hpasp.
ePap
Thanks, and wellcome to the forum!
This is not the AKM, rather the older AK. (high voltage indicator beside the SOC is at a different position, and some other differences.)
Normal mode, K3 is transmitted 120m before the missile reaches the target. It aims the radio proxy fuse, and that detonates the warhead. In case of jamming target, the K3 is signaled parallel with the Narrow Beam indication.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/07/1311:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Mdore
In 0.926.7, lots of the switches move now, and a few of them are hidden beneith switch covers. Are all these moving switches going to be simulated? The SA-8 might be more complicated than I thought, which is great!
Also some of the dials are very small. If they're important, they might be too small to read.
With PODSVET (illumination) they are readable...
Click to reveal..
Superb !!! I feel like been inside an OSA-akm,again... Thank you so much Hpasp.
ePap
Thank you Hasp !
K3 can also be energized manually from the Off/jamming $switch in case of jamming after lift off of the missile, if I remember well.
Best regards ePap
Thanks, and wellcome to the forum!
This is not the AKM, rather the older AK. (high voltage indicator beside the SOC is at a different position, and some other differences.)
Normal mode, K3 is transmitted 120m before the missile reaches the target. It aims the radio proxy fuse, and that detonates the warhead. In case of jamming target, the K3 is signaled parallel with the Narrow Beam indication.
Osa was originally planned as a cheap alternative for the KUB. KUB would arm the tank divisions, while Osa would arm the mechanized divisions. As Osa development was delayed, mostly all divisions were armed with the KUB.
The Osa regiment has 7 battery; 1 HQ, 5 firing battery, and 1 technical battery.
OSA Regiment HQ 2 x PU-12M, 1RL128D, P-18, P-19, PRV-16
Look closely piston79 list. It is the 9G22m1 vehicle . CV OSA-ak and OSA-akm have two metallic bottles over the top of the hall with air under pressure and it is used to start the engine in winter Or you run out of batteries .Now the real staff. OSA-akm has the necessary pipe lines to fill by it's own compressor this damn bottles. OSA-ak doesn't and so this ugly but useful car is used! One more difference of OSA-akm and OSA-ak.
One week in Creta for live firings . Three days respiration in NAMFI. and three days perspiration at chania beaches . What do you prefer. I would suggest both...
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/09/1310:01 AM
I know it isn't, do not take my words so seriously :-)
Yes we deserve as most information as possible. That's why I am not satisfied with lack of advanced functionality of S-200, which is my favorite system :-)
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/09/1310:03 AM
Not so far in Internet, just couple pages back in this topic...
Quote:
- First white panel of the SAMSIM The Shilka and the Dvina used the silver hammer finish. The Volhov, Neva, Vega, KRUG had the blue paint. All the latest Soviet/Russian SAM systems, and the OSA has the white design.
- Containerized, solid fueled missile with 12s (!!!) preparation time. - Missile has huge overload capability, evenly in the whole envelope. - Automatic guidance method selection. - Automatic missile preparation. - Automatic missile selection. - Integrated SOC. - Amphibious. - Acquire target on the move, shoot on short stop. - Dedicated switch against low RCS targets.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/09/1310:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
I know it isn't, do not take my words so seriously :-)
Yes we deserve as most information as possible. That's why I am not satisfied with lack of advanced functionality of S-200, which is my favorite system :-)
When you will see OSA-akm you going to love it. Love with the first sight.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/09/1310:22 AM
I know it isn't :-) I would guess somewhere around order of 30s, given the flight speed and maximum distance.
Preparation time is the time from "turning the missile on" till the moment it can be launched. It is time needed to start up gyros and all electronics and other systems.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/09/1310:38 AM
I do not know with OSA, but I suppose it will be the same as with other SAM systems when you turn missiles on and in the mean time you do other things (no target can be acquired at all).
If the preparation was part of the firing sequence, you would lose 12s in the case of OSA and given the fact it is a short range system, you could be dead or the target could be away (not even talking about longer times with other SAMs).
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/09/1310:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
I do not know with OSA, but I suppose it will be the same as with other SAM systems when you turn missiles on and in the mean time you do other things (no target can be acquired at all).
If the preparation would be part of the firing sequence, you will lose 12s in the case of OSA and given the fact it is a short range system, you could be dead or the target could be away (not even talking about longer times with other SAMs).
All the above are correct. It is not necessary to have lock on target and to loose these 12 sec in the firing sequence. As soon as you get EW for enemy plains in you area you can by the use of a switch to activate/prepare missiles and when You think what is the proper time you lock and fire.All the above is tactics.
The most important issue behind the preparation of the missile is not that this is a part of the sequence of the fire BUT the exercise (Russians call it trenasor ) of magnetron of the missile.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/09/1311:24 AM
Yes, I guessed about 30s, but that was not correct, so I must admit I do not know. Maybe battery has a greater capacity to have enough capacity in cold weather and so, so under "normal" conditions it could last about 60s, but it is really a wild geuss :-)
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/09/1311:53 AM
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Yes, I guessed about 30s, but that was not correct, so I must admit I do not know. Maybe battery has a greater capacity to have enough capacity in cold weather and so, so under "normal" conditions it could last about 60s, but it is really a wild geuss :-)
Ok my friend. Here it is the answer. There is no battery at all, on the missile!!!
We can find it somewhere in the internet, but you are the one who worked with them, so there is no point in this combat
Man,it's not a combat ! More information about the system. A hard core sim is under construction . We need well trained operators...
It would be very beneficial for everybody, if you could start a series describing the OSA antenna systems, instruments, operation (target acquisition/tracking/engagement in steps) in longer posts...
So does it have some pneumatic generator? It was a good joke :-)
Yes it does!!! It has a metallic squib with nitrogen under extrem pressure .When the fire button is pressed a pyrotechnic divice energizes This squib and the released nitrogen under pressure moves a pneumatic generator and it is produced the necessary electric power.
It would be very beneficial for everybody, if you could start a series describing the OSA antenna systems, instruments, operation (target acquisition/tracking/engagement in steps) in longer posts...
Basically the table is correct. Live firings in NAMFI ,where STIR tracking radars track OSA-akm missiles revealed bigger average velocities from 16sec to 23 sec. !!! Never lower of 500m/sec at the very last 23rd sec.That gave us the certainty of 1km extra range (very useful especially during maneuvering targets ).
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/10/1302:34 AM
Originally Posted By: piston79
Are you sure those numbers are correct? I worked out speed and acceleration, and it looks strange. You might need to scroll the box below to see all the numbers.
Look at the acceleration. It starts slowing down at 8400m, then stays the same speed at 9400m, then slows down a little, then a lot, then a little, then a lot. There's also a strange drop in acceleration at 510m.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/10/1307:15 AM
I looked to the forum, it looks interesting, but one note - Hpasp did not get away from the mathematical modelling, at least something of it - as I remember, he wrote he modelled about 50 dynamic parameters (forces, pressure and so on) for each missile in flight.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/11/1310:42 AM
It might be consistent if there is a substantial lead angle - range only increases at the rate given by velocity if there is no lateral movement.
For a 21 degree lead/crossing angle (which might be seen for a moderate parameter, high speed target) then 580m/s range rate is equal to 630m/s velocity.
It might be consistent if there is a substantial lead angle - range only increases at the rate given by velocity if there is no lateral movement.
For a 21 degree lead/crossing angle (which might be seen for a moderate parameter, high speed target) then 580m/s range rate is equal to 630m/s velocity.
Or the presented chart has to be revised ... Here a new pic from the tracking STIR 1.8 exactly behide an OSA-AKM at NAMFI with t0 t+6 t+12 and t+17(KILL).
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/12/1306:02 PM
new screen mode was a really good idea dear hpasp! with this situation i can feel im a real FCO and i sitting right there ! this screen from this view is a real realistic
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/13/1309:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Hpasp: will there be a possibility with OSA to zoom on each indicator, like in case of Vega (keys A-Z, X-S and C-D)?
No. During target acquisition, you need to be able to see two indicators at the same time. (it is the reason, why this screen arrangement was selected)
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/13/1310:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Hpasp: will there be a possibility with OSA to zoom on each indicator, like in case of Vega (keys A-Z, X-S and C-D)?
No. During target acquisition, you need to be able to see two indicators at the same time. (it is the reason, why this screen arrangement was selected)
You can do that only with PPI scope by means of TAR (target acquisition radar). When you have to engage (acquire/track) a target then you use all the indicators involving TTR (target tracking radar).
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/14/1307:17 PM
please be cool and take it easy with deep breath guys ! here is not yard of school ! dear allien @ max has not any sins ! he is one guy, like me and like you too but here is little different between us ! max has not any Tolerance phase ! just it and please try to choose good word when on guy do not use bad words!
max@ mix your 2 posts at one post ! PLEASE (!) and for some questions like upper question , u can usie from private msg !
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1310:31 AM
Currently I'm working on the only instrument, that was missed from all the simulated SAM systems so far... ... still I'm not convinced, that it could be recreated at the quality level I would expect for SAMSIM.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1312:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Currently I'm working on the only instrument, that was missed from all the simulated SAM systems so far...
no ... its not anything about SCC indicator ! HPASP said one instrument that was missed from all of the simulated sam systems
so ... we need thinking that what is One thing common between sam sim systems im not sure its about TV karat tracking because for this object HPASP need one really graphic engine
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1301:29 PM
You don't really need to use a graphics engine. I know 3D is very popular in modern games, but 20-30 years ago real 3D was very rare. Fake 3D made from 2D sprites was more common and is pretty easy to do today.
Fake 2D won't look as pretty as a propper 3D engine with a 3D world, but 2D engines could look good enough for target recognition and tracking.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1302:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
You don't really need to use a graphics engine. I know 3D is very popular in modern games, but 20-30 years ago real 3D was very rare. Fake 3D made from 2D sprites was more common and is pretty easy to do today.
Fake 2D won't look as pretty as a propper 3D engine with a 3D world, but 2D engines could look good enough for target recognition and tracking.
The simulator used in trainning to OSA akm systems represented the target in day light camera as a 2D steady big dash . With the the good knowledge of or range indicator and a lot of imagination you can see what a target is doing ...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1302:45 PM
for this simulation we need several things
1. sky + clouds 2. targets + shape of current aircraft + body designation 3. missiles + missile shapes + missile flight path with engine smoke 4. wave of explosion like real parameters of warhead
you guys think that all of this objects could be simulate on 2D graphical ? . . . . who knows ? maybe upper pic is for sam sim KARAT !
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1302:51 PM
Originally Posted By: farokh
for this simulation we need several things
1. sky + clouds 2. targets + shape of current aircraft + body designation 3. missiles + missile shapes + missile flight path with engine smoke 4. wave of explosion like real parameters of warhead
you guys think that all of this objects could be simulate on 2D graphical ? . . . . who knows ? maybe upper pic is for sam sim KARAT !
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1303:00 PM
Originally Posted By: farokh
guys how many Percent possible , that this picture could be from sam sim
any idea ?
This is not what you see through OSA day light camera. This is the stir tracking camera which is behind 500m and tracks the MISSILE for safety and data analysis.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1303:06 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Or Hpasp will integrate Dcs world into simsam...
EPAP @ you know it better than me, that if SAM SIM goes to DCS ... im am sure no one cant fly currently and all of aircrafts has to jump to earth for run from missile every minute !
Hmmm with TV tracking channel ... welcome to sam sim empire
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1304:00 PM
EPAP @ would u show to us one photo from real TV tracking display with high details of sa-8 ? and say somthing about tracking range and optical zoom about this camera
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1304:17 PM
Originally Posted By: farokh
EPAP @ would u show to us one photo from real TV tracking display with high details of sa-8 ? and say somthing about tracking range and optical zoom about this camera
I do not have a pic from real tv tracking but I can tell you that you are in the correct path to solve the quiz ... A little help.The target is about 7 km...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1304:25 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: farokh
EPAP @ would u show to us one photo from real TV tracking display with high details of sa-8 ? and say somthing about tracking range and optical zoom about this camera
I do not have a pic from real tv tracking but I can tell you that you are in the correct path to solve the quiz ... A little help.The target is about 7 km...
could we zoom on target ? how many X ? 4X ? 8X ? or we cant zoom at all ?
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1304:37 PM
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: farokh
EPAP @ would u show to us one photo from real TV tracking display with high details of sa-8 ? and say somthing about tracking range and optical zoom about this camera
I do not have a pic from real tv tracking but I can tell you that you are in the correct path to solve the quiz ... A little help.The target is about 7 km...
could we zoom on target ? how many X ? 4X ? 8X ? or we cant zoom at all ?
Is it enough with zoom to estimate the range ? You are close but try harder..
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1304:51 PM
Key point for the above is the dimentions of the cross in the middle of the camera. It is a reticle of 3 mills ! The zoom actualy is the narrow field with 1x1.4deg and the wide with 3.5x4.7deg.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1305:23 PM
Originally Posted By: farokh
EPAP @ would u show to us one photo from real TV tracking display with high details of sa-8 ? and say somthing about tracking range and optical zoom about this camera
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1306:03 PM
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: farokh
EPAP @ would u show to us one photo from real TV tracking display with high details of sa-8 ? and say somthing about tracking range and optical zoom about this camera
This is video from exercise With friendly F-4 somewhere in a Greek island. The remarks written in YouTube About it by some local hotheaded,are stupidities.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1306:10 PM
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: apelles
Shilka has a memory mode for targets ie- masked helos. :-)
what about attack to jaming target ? operators has to use from optical TV lol
The operator has in his disposal a lot of ECCM capabilities. Basically the camera is used for identification and firing results.It is not an auto tracking camera . For hellos you have much more chances to manually follow them.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/16/1306:40 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: farokh
EPAP @ would u show to us one photo from real TV tracking display with high details of sa-8 ? and say somthing about tracking range and optical zoom about this camera
This is video from exercise friendly F-4 somewhere in a Greek island. The remarks written in YouTube About it by some local hotheaded,are stupidities.
But you can see even in very short range ,less than 3km ,the TTR can follow the target easily with 90deg bearing . The tracking rates at this moment should be around 20deg/sec but it is not a good time to fire,at all...
OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/17/1305:46 PM
WARNING!!!
I'm not convinced, that the quality of KARAT camera in the SAMSIM could reach an acceptable level. Please view these screen-shots only as experiments. It might happen eventually, that KARAT will be unavailable with the OSA similarly to other systems...
Zoom-out (wide view)
Zoom-in (narrow view)
The ground image is quite blocky with zoom-in mode. When the Karat zooms in, it shows 1.4 degree in azimuth. By using 256 pixel per TV screen, it would mean ~183 pixel per 1 degree, 65'829 azimuth pixel per firing site (obviously too big)...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/18/1305:18 AM
Wow, I was pretty sure you weren't going to do TV. This'll be amazing if you can make it work. Every system except the SA-5 has a TV or visual mode. It might be a lot of work, but you could do it on every system! :O
Have you decided if you are you going to be using 2D sprites or 3D models for targets?
If screen blockyness is a problem, have you thought about using overlapping 2D terrain like shapes? Like this
Of course you'd probably get better results if you spent more time of the details. That's just what I did in 10 minutes.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/18/1305:48 AM
The wide and narrow field of view is achieved by the interchange of lenses with F=150 and F=500 cm respectively . The Vidicon has 500 vertical and 600 horizontal lines. The density of sweep lines is 841 at a rate of 50 sweep half-frames.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/18/1301:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
Wow, I was pretty sure you weren't going to do TV. This'll be amazing if you can make it work. Every system except the SA-5 has a TV or visual mode. It might be a lot of work, but you could do it on every system! :O
Have you decided if you are you going to be using 2D sprites or 3D models for targets?
If screen blockyness is a problem, have you thought about using overlapping 2D terrain like shapes? Like this
Of course you'd probably get better results if you spent more time of the details. That's just what I did in 10 minutes.
can hpasp add more pixels for TV environment ? i guess only hpasp needs , is more pixels ! how hpasp can add more pixels to 2D graphical environment ? for more pixels we need other graphical engine ?
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/18/1305:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
Wow, I was pretty sure you weren't going to do TV. This'll be amazing if you can make it work. Every system except the SA-5 has a TV or visual mode. It might be a lot of work, but you could do it on every system! :O
Have you decided if you are you going to be using 2D sprites or 3D models for targets?
If screen blockyness is a problem, have you thought about using overlapping 2D terrain like shapes? Like this
Click to reveal..
Of course you'd probably get better results if you spent more time of the details. That's just what I did in 10 minutes.
I prefer to use real terrain mesh from the NASA 100m digital terrain model. The problem is that the camera has much higher resolution, than the radar.
This current model is running at an acceptable speed on my 8 core Intel i7-860 (2,8Ghz) CPU.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/18/1305:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Mdore
Wow, I was pretty sure you weren't going to do TV. This'll be amazing if you can make it work. Every system except the SA-5 has a TV or visual mode. It might be a lot of work, but you could do it on every system! :O
Have you decided if you are you going to be using 2D sprites or 3D models for targets?
If screen blockyness is a problem, have you thought about using overlapping 2D terrain like shapes? Like this
Click to reveal..
Of course you'd probably get better results if you spent more time of the details. That's just what I did in 10 minutes.
I prefer to use real terrain mesh from the NASA 100m digital terrain model. The problem is that the camera has much higher resolution, than the radar.
This current model is running at an acceptable speed on my 8 core Intel i7-860 (2,8Ghz) CPU.
Great ! What about arial targets ?What is going to be the approach ?
Please share your Hardware configuration, and if the speed of it is acceptable. (please share the average value displayed over the IKO, during tower rotation)
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/18/1308:47 PM
During turret up and down when horizont is visible it is about 19-34fps, sometimes something like 4 blinks in. Movement is a very bit coarse with horizon on screen, but it is perfectly acceptable. The question is the framerate with target visible.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/18/1309:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Please share your Hardware configuration, and if the speed of it is acceptable. (please share the average value displayed over the IKO, during tower rotation
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1312:54 AM
Well, I could post my machine specs, but I'm running SAM Sim on Linux using Wine, so that's always going to give me poor performance compared to if I was running Windows software on real Windows.
The number shows 1 constantly.
Framerate feels around 3fps.
Hpasp, how are you drawing the terrain? Are you constantly regenerating it every frame from the height data or range data or something?
If you are, have you considered just creating the entire 360' display once in an offscreen buffer, then just blit the 1' x 1' you're looking at?
OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1305:54 AM
Please test also...
- fast turret rotation - vertical scan - zoom
... these does not have extra effect (beside normal rotation) on frame rate at my system.
@Piston79, and Mdore Please report the value above IKO, with the "Y/Z" screen.
The TV screen use a 360 degree panorama picture (19608x1100), and displays only the small part (256x196) where the KARAT actually looks. It only draws the "ground", "sky" is just the background. It only redraws the screen, when elevation/azimuth changes. Site location is... http://goo.gl/maps/9ss6r ... you can look around with Google Earth, and find the same hills.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1307:08 AM
Hpasp: do you use some HW acceleration for faster redrawing? I tried to enable external graphic card in my notebook, but it looked about the same as with integrated graphics.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1308:41 AM
ok ok i got this one look hpasp ! when i used horizontal rotation i do not feel little lags ! its was on 20 till 34 only even i used fast rotation horizontal god damn ... fast horizontal rotation sound is like hand of robot sound veeeeeezh veeeeeezh
but when i used vertical scan "auto or manual" i feel lag like others ! 3 till 19 till 34 i guess vertical scan use more long parameters to move per m/s and its is reason for lags horizontal scan move very smooth and soft than vertical rotation
AMD phenom II 1090 3.4ghz ATI 5700 1GB DDR4 : 2GB corsair
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1308:58 AM
Number above the IKO is not the frame rate.
It represents the load on your system. If it is 50 (max), than your system has available plenty of free resources. If it is 1 (min), than your system is fully overloaded, unable to cope with the math...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1311:00 AM
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
@Piston79, and Mdore Please report the value above IKO, with the "Y/Z" screen.
Y- screen - 34 , sometimes drops to 19-21 for part of the second...
Thanks, that means the scenario, when KARAT is off.
Please do not concentrate only at the load number, rather on the feeling if this is fast enough. I completely rewritten the code, now it feels bit more smoother, but the load number got lower (from 35 to 19). (basically I use different math) http://www.mediafire.com/?6ymddnxwovtede6
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1311:55 AM
Hpasp, that last patch massively improved speed on my computer.
Before, when I rotated it was 3fps and everything went slow, even the SOC. Now this latest patch, everything is the same speed whether I rotate or not. Nice and fast.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1302:38 PM
With the latest beta patch and in my system:
Intel Core2 Duo E7500 @2.93 GHz Ati HD7850 2Ghz 8 GB RAM
I must say that the TV system runs smoothly with ranging from 34/35 FPS max. (most of the times) to 19 FPS min. (only on rare occasions). The TV system pans smoothly on every occasion: With or without zoom, with manual or automatic panning and independently on what FPS I get.
BTW, I can only pan the TV system in elevation, how can I pan the TV in horizontal azimuth?
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1303:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
This is "the high voltage on/off switch" of the search radar. The RED button which switch off the OSA-akm is in another panel 0096-9M1 (not introduced yet) on your left looking Towards the existing panels. I am sure that Hpasp will introduce it in the near future .
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1303:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
ePap, When the SOC was in 15km range mode, were the range rings really at 2km, 7km and 12km?
I'm not sure if it's a bug because Hpasp isn't finnished, or if it was real.
It seems strange to me. Why not 5, 10, 15. Or 2,4,6,8,10... or something else ordered like that.
No it is not a bug. It is real and Hpasp did excellent job ,as always. The reason has a technical answer .The range rings always have 5 km gap besides the first gap at 0-15 km mode which is 2 km.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1303:40 PM
Faster at me, just very slight (almost unnoticeable) coarseness of SOC when moving in azimuth (not in elevation). 35 most of the time, sometimes 19, exceptionally one digit number.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1304:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
ePap, When the SOC was in 15km range mode, were the range rings really at 2km, 7km and 12km?
I'm not sure if it's a bug because Hpasp isn't finnished, or if it was real.
It seems strange to me. Why not 5, 10, 15. Or 2,4,6,8,10... or something else ordered like that.
15km mode is against pop-up helos flying at the tree level. The OSA range against targets below 25m (in altitude) is 2km (minimum) and 6.5km (maximum).
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1304:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Mdore
ePap, When the SOC was in 15km range mode, were the range rings really at 2km, 7km and 12km?
I'm not sure if it's a bug because Hpasp isn't finnished, or if it was real.
It seems strange to me. Why not 5, 10, 15. Or 2,4,6,8,10... or something else ordered like that.
15km mode is against pop-up helos flying at the tree level. The OSA range against targets below 25m (in altitude) is 2km (minimum) and 6.5km (maximum).
The main operational mode for the OSA-akm is the 0-35 km selection. You have to have a target with the TAR (target acquisition radar) at 0-35 km scope and using tactics to switch to 0-15 km as a zoom in condition and consetrate to a particular target. You will never be at 0-15 km from the begging because you will be over run,most probably,because you will not have much time to react and the target will be quickly in your negative cone of acquisition radar.
As soon as you acquire a lock to a slow target then you will feel more comfortable to switch to 0-15 km mode and enjoy it...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1307:26 PM
right now after download new patch ... i do not feel any lag vertical roration and horizontal rotaion works fine
hpasp... tnQ to your hard effort ... right now ... i have nothing to say and im still in deep shock with your hardest efforts i cant imagine that one day we could have a TV tracking but you did it ... like a boss you are a legend
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/19/1311:12 PM
Excellent job doing the TV tracking. I think it is plenty sufficient for Sam simulator and would work fine with the game. I hope this can lead perhaps one day to an SA-13 or something of that nature.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/20/1311:34 AM
Originally Posted By: max2012
About the SA-13 can be more interesting if the S-300.
But the S-300 probably will not soon be.
OSA is a substitution SAM "Thor", I wonder will the "Thor" or not.
thor right ? you thinking that access to tor is really easy lol? thor still under heavy national security of all of countries ! and why you think that you can Comparison sa-8 with thor ? access to c-300 pmu is very easier than thor or tor !
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/20/1302:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Yes, I know this. I wrote about S-300 and Tor which I understood max wants more.
TOR-M1 is THE perfect system but very boring for Sam simulator! You have nothing to do as operator.You press one button to lock the target and then you press the fire button. Nothing more,nothing less.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/20/1303:04 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
TOR-M1 is THE perfect system but very boring for Sam simulator! You have nothing to do as operator.You press one button to lock the target and then you press the fire button. Nothing more,nothing less.
i knew it but,,,, what about s-300 and patriot ? i guess these are boring like tor right ? choose target on scope and pusk ... right ?
Ps: guys do you have any picture from inside of tor ?
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/20/1304:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
Can the SA-8 hit ground targets? Can any SAM hit ground targets after the SA-2 and SA-3?
Theoretically yes. You see the target by the use of camera and you insert the correct range (key element) and the system selects the Fi mode and you fire.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/20/1305:12 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Quiz
What is the difference between a ground target and a landed/hovering helicopter ,as a target for an ADA system!
One is in the air (hovering helicopter) while the other isn't (ground target and landed helicopter). Now seriously, I can imagine that when using the radar to guide a SAM there's quite a difference between air target and ground target due to ground clutter but when using a optical system to guide a SAM it doesn't matter if it's on the ground or air, you just need to point the optical/TV system towards the intended target.
Regarding optical Anti-Air (SAM) systems, one SAM system that I find quite interesting is the Canadian ADATS which is indeed considered a dual purpose system (ADATS - Air Defence Anti-Tank System) and this dual purpose is possible because the missile relies on optical systems (FLIR and Day TV) to guide the missile (which is Laser guided) and of course the missile also carries a warhead capable of defeating armored targets (besides aircraft).
Now that we have optical systems in SAM simulator can I request the ADATS for a future system to be added to SAM Simulator?
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/21/1301:58 PM
Canada cancelled it. ADATS was too expensive and too ineffective. Jack of all trades, master of none.
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Regarding optical Anti-Air (SAM) systems, one SAM system that I find quite interesting is the Canadian ADATS which is indeed considered a dual purpose system (ADATS - Air Defence Anti-Tank System) and this dual purpose is possible because the missile relies on optical systems (FLIR and Day TV) to guide the missile (which is Laser guided) and of course the missile also carries a warhead capable of defeating armored targets (besides aircraft).
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/21/1302:46 PM
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Canada cancelled it. ADATS was too expensive and too ineffective. Jack of all trades, master of none.
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Regarding optical Anti-Air (SAM) systems, one SAM system that I find quite interesting is the Canadian ADATS which is indeed considered a dual purpose system (ADATS - Air Defence Anti-Tank System) and this dual purpose is possible because the missile relies on optical systems (FLIR and Day TV) to guide the missile (which is Laser guided) and of course the missile also carries a warhead capable of defeating armored targets (besides aircraft).
You are so right!!! That's why my country rejected the offer of used ADATS at lates of1990. Too expensive Antitank system...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/21/1310:13 PM
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Canada cancelled it. ADATS was too expensive and too ineffective. Jack of all trades, master of none.
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Regarding optical Anti-Air (SAM) systems, one SAM system that I find quite interesting is the Canadian ADATS which is indeed considered a dual purpose system (ADATS - Air Defence Anti-Tank System) and this dual purpose is possible because the missile relies on optical systems (FLIR and Day TV) to guide the missile (which is Laser guided) and of course the missile also carries a warhead capable of defeating armored targets (besides aircraft).
According from almost everything that I read the ADATS is yes, expensive but no it's not ineffective, by the contrary - The ADATS is considered to be a very effective system against low flying aircraft, specially against helicopters. The ADATS missile is very fast with a top speed of Mach3, it's very precise, has a very powerful warhead and due to it's guiding system is immune to decoys and/or countermeasures such as Flares and has a decent max range of 10Km (for a mobile short range SAM). I would say that the ADATS is for example much more effective than the Stinger missile. But of course this can be disputed since the ADATS never entered in real combat. The ADATS initially had some reliability problems (when initially developed in the 80's) but these reliability problems where mostly solved.
Anyway the reasons why Canada retired (NOT canceled) the ADATS resumes to the following: - Too expensive! Canadian Armed Forces are facing some major budget cuts and one of the systems that the Canadian Forces decided to cut/retire was the ADATS, due not only to it's high costs but also due to the idea that an Air Defence system is currently unnecessary for Canada - an idea which I disagree, since Air Defence systems will always be important, since there will always happen situations where ground forces will be attacked by air forces, even when those ground forces are supposedly protected by large or superior air forces - Just look at a situation where French UN troops where attacked by SU-25s in Ivory Coast. - An "orphan" system - Canada is the only country that uses or used the ADATS (besides Thailand which only operates 2 fixed ADATS launchers) and as such this makes the ADATS system even more expensive specially if there's future desire to upgrade it.
Despite the ADATS is no longer in service I still would like to see it modeled in SAM simulator and well, asking/dreaming doesn't cost anything, does it...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/21/1310:19 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Canada cancelled it. ADATS was too expensive and too ineffective. Jack of all trades, master of none.
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Regarding optical Anti-Air (SAM) systems, one SAM system that I find quite interesting is the Canadian ADATS which is indeed considered a dual purpose system (ADATS - Air Defence Anti-Tank System) and this dual purpose is possible because the missile relies on optical systems (FLIR and Day TV) to guide the missile (which is Laser guided) and of course the missile also carries a warhead capable of defeating armored targets (besides aircraft).
You are so right!!! That's why my country rejected the offer of used ADATS at lates of1990. To expensive Antitank system...
According from that I read, the main reason why ADATS was not sold to Greece seemed to be because Canadian government officials demanded that the ADATS exported to Greece could never be transferred to Cyprus. At the time ADATS was considered one of the favourite systems in the Greek program to procure an Air Defence System. But I also agree that the ADATS cost together with the reason above certainly decide the ADATS "fate" regarding a possible export to Greece.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/22/1304:33 AM
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Canada cancelled it. ADATS was too expensive and too ineffective. Jack of all trades, master of none.
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Regarding optical Anti-Air (SAM) systems, one SAM system that I find quite interesting is the Canadian ADATS which is indeed considered a dual purpose system (ADATS - Air Defence Anti-Tank System) and this dual purpose is possible because the missile relies on optical systems (FLIR and Day TV) to guide the missile (which is Laser guided) and of course the missile also carries a warhead capable of defeating armored targets (besides aircraft).
You are so right!!! That's why my country rejected the offer of used ADATS at lates of1990. To expensive Antitank system...
According from that I read, the main reason why ADATS was not sold to Greece seemed to be because Canadian government officials demanded that the ADATS exported to Greece could never be transferred to Cyprus. At the time ADATS was considered one of the favourite systems in the Greek program to procure an Air Defence System. But I also agree that the ADATS cost together with the reason above certainly decide the ADATS "fate" regarding a possible export to Greece.
My dear friend this is not truth.Never ever was the problem of possible transfer of ADA systems to Cuprus.After Jusus there are a lot of prophets... The reason is that it was evaluated and rejected.Also US rejected.You are talking for the ADATS missile but were not there during firings to see that one third of them hit the ground after lunch and one third missed the drone targets?Do you know that you have to follow the target manually (no auto tracking) and the 15 tons on M113 carrier can hardly move even in plain ground?
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/23/1302:21 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Do you know that you have to follow the target manually (no auto tracking)...
Sorry but I find that VERY HARD to believe since the ADATS electro-optical system (FLIR) is based on an enhanced version of the AH-64 Apache FLIR and the Apache FLIR does have an autotracking function! So if the Apache FLIR has autotracking so does have the ADATS.
Besides and since the ADATS uses FLIR (termal imaging) to track targets this makes the ADATS effective at night and adverse weather conditions, situations that will hamper systems that are relying solely on TV systems.
Originally Posted By: ePap
15 tons on M113 carrier can hardly move even in plain ground?
Again very hard to believe! The Canadians sent M113s to Afghanistan (albeit no ADATS version of course) because and since the M113 are tracked they had much better off-road mobility than wheeled vehicles (such as the LAVIII). So and sorry but saying that the M113 "can hardly move even in plain ground" is very, very far off from reality!
Regarding the demand that the ADATS exported to Greece could never be transferred to Cyprus (and a few more details regarding the ADATS and it's potential export to Greece), here you are:
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/23/1304:13 PM
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Originally Posted By: ePap
Do you know that you have to follow the target manually (no auto tracking)...
Sorry but I find that VERY HARD to believe since the ADATS electro-optical system (FLIR) is based on an enhanced version of the AH-64 Apache FLIR and the Apache FLIR does have an autotracking function! So if the Apache FLIR has autotracking so does have the ADATS.
Besides and since the ADATS uses FLIR (termal imaging) to track targets this makes the ADATS effective at night and adverse weather conditions, situations that will hamper systems that are relying solely on TV systems.
Originally Posted By: ePap
15 tons on M113 carrier can hardly move even in plain ground?
Again very hard to believe! The Canadians sent M113s to Afghanistan (albeit no ADATS version of course) because and since the M113 are tracked they had much better off-road mobility than wheeled vehicles (such as the LAVIII). So and sorry but saying that the M113 "can hardly move even in plain ground" is very, very far off from reality!
Regarding the demand that the ADATS exported to Greece could never be transferred to Cyprus (and a few more details regarding the ADATS and it's potential export to Greece), here you are:
1. FLIR of AH-64 first generation thermal imager is capable to autotrack ground targets but not high speed airplanes .Please do believe it or ask hello pilots.
2. You mast be joking saying that you can use ADATS in adverse visibility and weather conditions. FLIR , laser (beam rider) and rear infrared indicator of missile are heavily affected by the above conditions ,what's why serious Shorad systems (Russian,Frence,German,swidish)include tracking radars as primary tracking systems.
3. I know nothing about ADATS send in Afganistan.For sure I know the capabilities of mighty Taliban Air Forces and how dengerous are they,but I am ready to accept it if you prove it somehow.
4. If the M113a2 is ok why they want to upgrade the system carrier with LAV III?They have so much money to spent? When the US Army tested (and not accepted finally) it, they installed it in Brandleys.
5. Greece was offered ADATs as a used system by Canada and so there was a LITTLE concern about the end user certificate. a. ADATS were manufactured by Oerlicon Zurich Switzerland. b. Cyprus Army bought and use Skygard and aspide SAM from Oerlicon Zurich Switzerland. c. Greece was negotiating for new brand ADATS systems much more capable but not existing (only in papers) and because of the late deliveries (after 6years!!!) an intermideate solution with 12 used ADATS was offered.
6. Greek army is present (under the law of UN) in Syprus and use all NATO systems for his own protection and so ADATS was not a problem. We do not intend to transfer the ownership to Cyprus Army.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/23/1309:38 PM
Originally Posted By: piston79
Not the same "OSA", but still:
Video 1 Some data coming from this video. Terrible video adjustment in PPI scope.Normal video not MTI. Fire one missile at 7 km,checked K1,K2 commands and no kill of the target !
Video 2 Introduction of completely new fire computer in place of the old(but fast and perfect) fire solution system based in operational amplifiers!
Video 3 Nice and smooth barrel role missile flight path ,obviously because of the new fire computer and which extend the max range of the system to 12 km with out touching the missile !
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/29/1303:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
What is the single indicator screen in the background?
This is simulator trainer. Two crews,one in this simulator and one real combat vehicle is connected ,are trained simultaneously. The PPI alone and the racks are the trainer's panels. Very useful piece especially in ECCM procedures (jamming environment ). But the most important characteristic of this is that you can change the behavior of the targets (two maximum) during the run of scenarios, like to be in multiplayer game .
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 05/29/1306:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
ePap: thanks
My pleasure.
I forgot to mention that the above sim is the old version (carat is a mock up not fanctional ). In the new one the carat(tv) is fanctional but the target is represented as a spite ,fair enough for training. In my country we use both.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/05/1312:26 PM
Originally Posted By: farokh
question from HPASP
how u can show to us missile flight path on KARAT? do u have any idea ?
as we know each missile has different flight parameters ! so we need random flight path right ? as realistic to switch
PS: we love to see missiles trajectory on TV do u have any idea hpasp?
Missile smoke trails (6) will show actual missile path, till the missile engine is working. After that, the missile will not be visible, as in reality.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/05/1302:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: farokh
question from HPASP
how u can show to us missile flight path on KARAT? do u have any idea ?
as we know each missile has different flight parameters ! so we need random flight path right ? as realistic to switch
PS: we love to see missiles trajectory on TV do u have any idea hpasp?
Missile smoke trails (6) will show actual missile path, till the missile engine is working. After that, the missile will not be visible, as in reality.
your meant was ... we cant see any missile shape on karrat ? even at impact point ? we will see only target on karrat and after pass second target will booooom ? like when one maverick missile fire from fighter ? ONE TV LOCK ON TARGET AND WE CANT SEE ANY SIGN FROM MISSILE RIGHT?
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/05/1303:42 PM
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: farokh
question from HPASP
how u can show to us missile flight path on KARAT? do u have any idea ?
as we know each missile has different flight parameters ! so we need random flight path right ? as realistic to switch
PS: we love to see missiles trajectory on TV do u have any idea hpasp?
Missile smoke trails (6) will show actual missile path, till the missile engine is working. After that, the missile will not be visible, as in reality.
your meant was ... we cant see any missile shape on karrat ? even at impact point ? we will see only target on karrat and after pass second target will booooom ? like when one maverick missile fire from fighter ? ONE TV LOCK ON TARGET AND WE CANT SEE ANY SIGN FROM MISSILE RIGHT?
do u have any screen shot from this one ?
Im not committed releasing Karat yet, its just an experiment. If it will be realistic enough for myself, than you will see...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/14/1308:01 AM
Why the Range dial indicator is big and you can clearly see it in low/ dark light environment while no other dial indicators are present ,for direct use I mean.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/15/1307:07 AM
Originally Posted By: crotalito
I don't find it so big as that!!!
In knowledge which the range operator was also in charge of watching the PPI scope (SOC)
The range of the target is constantly guarded aytomatikaly by the system for the attention/ in range evaluation.So no needed the operator to be involved. Also from Range indicator you have a good knowledge of the target range.
Two other reasons exist ( according to the manufacturer approach ) which are ...
1. You can watch closely the attitude of the target ( increase/decrease of speed , change of heading ,..) and inform the other operators accordingly . 2. When you fire at stationery or very low fling (hovering) hellos in the zoom climb mode (fi) you insert manually the precise range needed.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/15/1306:58 PM
You are right but the target's track can also be to make in semiautomatic mode, or in manual mode. So I think that the range operator must be involved, in particular against the jamming, Chaff deployment, terrain masking, gate's thief...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/15/1307:13 PM
Originally Posted By: crotalito
You are right but the target's track can also be to make in semiautomatic mode, or in manual mode. So I think that the range operator must be involved, in particular against the jamming, Chaff deployment, terrain masking, gate's thief...
My friend I agree for what you are writing but read carefully what I wrote about the involvement of the range operator .
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/15/1307:40 PM
Originally Posted By: crotalito
Sorry ePap, I badly have to translate your text or I badly understood it.
That's ok my friend.no problem at all. For what you wrote, range operator is envolved but range indicator scope is his prime concern. For what I wrote, range operator involves and have extra concern of the range dial indicator.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/15/1310:20 PM
Thus I had understood well your text but I badly expressed myself.
I don't think that the range operator is extra concerned by the range dial indicator. Because the range information can be seen by the azimuth operator on its scope PPI, and for the elevation operator by her "attention or warning" lamp (target has 15 seconds of the domain of shooting). The range information is certainly important but not capital. I don't exclude the communication between the operators, which is very important of course.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/16/1306:40 AM
Originally Posted By: crotalito
Thus I had understood well your text but I badly expressed myself.
I don't think that the range operator is extra concerned by the range dial indicator. Because the range information can be seen by the azimuth operator on its scope PPI, and for the elevation operator by her "attention or warning" lamp (target has 15 seconds of the domain of shooting). The range information is certainly important but not capital. I don't exclude the communication between the operators, which is very important of course.
Regards
I think that some how we missed the subject. The subject is " why the range DIAL indicator exists " and so why is useful to the operator. The key word of my answer is " attitude " which means that you can easily understand what is the fling behavior of the target and also the insert of manual range in certain conditions. In PPI scope you can not understand the small changes in range .Very soon you will see it by your own in the Samsim, I have seen it in real too many times.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/16/1301:40 PM
I think that some how we missed the subject. The subject is " why the range DIAL indicator exists " and so why is useful to the operator. The key word of my answer is " attitude " which means that you can easily understand what is the fling behavior of the target and also the insert of manual range in certain conditions.
In Hungary during target practice, the Range Operator had to read out loud the target range (each km).
Is there any chance of you adding helicopters to SAM Sim? Ones that can hover and do pop-up attacks.
Helos are on the cards for Ashuluk. (Sitting on the ground, with rotating blades.)
So far it was a common knowledge that the S-300PS (SA-10B) can auto-lock on incoming HARM missiles, but did you know, that the OSA is (beside auto selecting&preparing missiles) capable of auto-locking targets?
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/16/1302:38 PM
@Hpasp So far it was a common knowledge that the S-300PS (SA-10B) can auto-lock on incoming HARM missiles, but did you know, that the OSA is (beside auto selecting&preparing missiles) capable of auto-locking targets?
You have to be very brave and to have a lot of patience in order to wait for an OSA akm auto lock ...
In OSA akm simulator there is procedure that creates a Harm firing scenario from platform airplane, in order to act accordingly ,which is a. stop any emmition and change position or b. engage the missile
Re: OSA work in progress screenshot... - 06/16/1303:11 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
@Hpasp So far it was a common knowledge that the S-300PS (SA-10B) can auto-lock on incoming HARM missiles, but did you know, that the OSA is (beside auto selecting&preparing missiles) capable of auto-locking targets?
You have to be very brave and to have a lot of patience in order to wait for an OSA akm auto lock ...
In OSA akm simulator there is procedure that creates a Harm firing scenario from platform airplane, in order to act accordingly ,which is a. stop any emmition and change position or b. engage the missile
I would suggest definitely the a.
It is always, and always will be the limitation of SAM SIMULATOR "Realistic to the Switch", that we are doing a 3~5 crews work, one handed (having one mouse vs two arms).
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 06/16/1304:29 PM
exactly who can forbearance for next six month EPAP AND HPASP ! do not suffer us ! please just finish it in summer ! OR finish it normal version soon than KARAT version ! please !
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 06/16/1306:23 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: ePap
Christmas time !!!
It is time for presents Hpasp ...
Come on gays, put some humor
Some Russian real one...
The first phase of modernization "Osa" was planned for 1974.
VP Efremov, recalled: "DF Ustinov visited Izhevsk electromechanical plant, which was carried out mass production of complex military machine "Osa."
After hearing my report, DF Ustinov set the task: "Veniamin Pavlovich, you put on a fighting machine four missiles. Necessary to increase the ammunition twice! " My objection is impossible to place, lack of weight and dimensions based on the car were severely rejected: "This is your concern, then report on the execution!"
As a result of further work placement eight missiles on combat vehicle demonstrated the possibility of placing six missiles in transport-launch containers. I called DF Ustinov and said: "We have worked with PD Grushin your instructions about the possibility of eight missiles on combat vehicles, eight did not work, but well-placed six rockets. " Dmitri thought for a moment and said: "As in the Russian proverb: a black sheep though tuft of wool."
Hahahaha...
ps: the successor of OSA, the TOR was designed with 8 missiles on board, as was originally requested by DF Ustinov...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 06/19/1309:47 AM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Air pressure on the wings (I do not find the correct English word) makes free spinning around the missile body.
Actually the opposite happens. The aft fin section rolls in ball bearings to the missile body. K1 and K2 steers the front canards which introduce a spin to the missile body. The aft lolling fins remain steady because of the drag . This happens in order to minimize the rolling diameter of missile flight path.
You must be joking gays about how hot is in your countries! Come in Athens with 40C and you will see what hot means. Of course we can escape from this easily in a nearby sea coast ...
You must be joking gays about how hot is in your countries! Come in Athens with 40C and you will see what hot means. Of course we can escape from this easily in a nearby sea coast ...
For me, anything warmer than 25 Celsius is like hell.
The only place where i feel 40 C is in my workplace, near the laser cutting machines. I not like it. Not one bit.
OSA akm is much newer version than OSA m. OSA m are used in see environment and besides the search-acquisition radar the other radars and missiles are not stabilized . OSA akm was forbidden to fire on the move or even to track a target. Besides a possible balance issue can you see any other ?
Basic OSA - naval version OSA-M OSA-AK - naval version is OSA-MA OSA-AKM - not sure that NAVY has equivalent [/quote]
Originally Posted By: ePap
OSA akm was forbidden to fire on the move or even to track a target. Besides a possible balance issue can you see any other ?
All I know is that missile is leaving the launcher too slow to compensate shaking by the off-road driving and could go to undesired direction... Is it possible to "miss" antena's beam and not received guidance command??? What is your opinion as a practitioner?
Missiles are leaving launcher relative slow in order to easily/smoothly driven to wide-medium-narrow and finally radar tracking beam. In my opinion and because of the wide angels at least of wide beam antennas of MSR and because of the reference/stabilized system ,it can easily track and fire on road move. I have doubts for rough terrain .
In July 1968, the Commission has suspended further testing of the failing OSA system.
The Commission lists all identified weaknesses: - Layout war machine ... does not provide a circular firing in a given zone of destruction, given the effectiveness of shooting at low-flying targets and fire at the target zone by two series of rockets launched; - Do not provide the required lower limit of the affected area of 50-100 m and the efficiency of fire due to the large pointing errors; - Not be guaranteed because of the burning rocket nozzle of the engine block, which leads to additional errors guidance; - The complex has a large dead time, which limits its ability to engage suddenly appearing targets; - In connection with a significant overload of combat vehicle can not be conformed to reserve, walking speed and buoyancy of the complex.
During testing, one example sinked in the Black Sea...
And yet, despite the fact that by the time the work on the complex Mauler (US equivalent system) stopped (and it gave a good reason for making similar decisions), the creators of "Osa" was still determined to bring this work to completion. As a result, they had released two more years. The Council of Ministers of the USSR, the new deadline to "Osa" on state tests was set II quarter of 1970.
Soon, the NII-20 (NIEMI) held a meeting on the question of principle with GRAU Chief Marshal of Artillery PN Kuleshov.
After explaining the situation, the VP Efremov proposed to delete the requirement of shooting on the run from TTP to develop "Osa", replacing it with a short stop shooting.
However, he suggested to keep the ability to detect targets in motion, on the march, and enter into a fighting machine second channel auto-tracking missiles, providing salvo firing at a target. After a heated discussion of the proposals, despite the protests were on the meeting as representatives of Grau, PN Kuleshov agreed to changes in the technical order.
It looks like it has only one SVR (Missile Tracking Radar - Narrow Beam)... Is that means that it could guide only one missile at a target?...
Here some "first hand" commentary:
Quote:
It's work logic scheme, in my opinion, has not big difference, but the layout and AVS! LAnd variant of the Complex is far better ! When in 2005 me and Igor Nedviginym (former battalion commander with the TFR, and then the officer Urawa PF) in my school looked at OSA (I was on the 25th anniversary of the release, and Igor's son did), he was amazed at how wonderfully done and closed AVS (antenna power cable system). And we have the version with open cables, rotting from the sea water! And Clumsy wide beam antena. Hitting planes was not something challenging for OSA. In the army, improving the system followed the path of struggle with helicopters, and we have become aware that main target for our OSA are anti-ship missiles, and here http://svzriu.ru/teh.php?type=osa clearly traces the history of the modification of the complex. When I went to the Navy after college I saw that OSA-MA, the almost complete analog of OSA-AK. Layout and antennas are not counted. Here are just a different PSA(analog computer) and stability system - on land airframe (gyros and vertical gyroscopes). A rocket is the same, except that the wings fold up and stuff in TPK.
....Because cipher and has 9M33M2. But this universality of all evils. How not to upgrade your PSA, and if the rocket is not designed to destroy aircraft (aircraft), but only for his defeat, the result respectively. Aspen missiles with high-explosive effect within 5m, and that we are on the TTC - complex provides guidance to within 15m. That is, the destruction of the aircraft is not guaranteed. And we have to deal with anti-ship missiles flying at a low altitude, the discovery of which, and its fire can be the minimum distance at which the affected but not destroyed (not destroyed) Anti-Ship Missile can fly into the board. I do not know if my idea is clear, but it is that in the Navy as opposed to the land we have to deal with the ship and anti-ship missiles, and the ship is easier to be hit. And in the performance of practical shooting, and even if such violations that were at the last shooting "Monsoon" further increases this risk. I believe that the versatility of this missile has also become one of the factors that led to the death of the "Monsoon".
It looks like it has only one SVR (Missile Tracking Radar - Narrow Beam)... Is that means that it could guide only one missile at a target?...
Here some "first hand" commentary:
Quote:
It's work logic scheme, in my opinion, has not big difference, but the layout and AVS! LAnd variant of the Complex is far better ! When in 2005 me and Igor Nedviginym (former battalion commander with the TFR, and then the officer Urawa PF) in my school looked at OSA (I was on the 25th anniversary of the release, and Igor's son did), he was amazed at how wonderfully done and closed AVS (antenna power cable system). And we have the version with open cables, rotting from the sea water! And Clumsy wide beam antena. Hitting planes was not something challenging for OSA. In the army, improving the system followed the path of struggle with helicopters, and we have become aware that main target for our OSA are anti-ship missiles, and here http://svzriu.ru/teh.php?type=osa clearly traces the history of the modification of the complex. When I went to the Navy after college I saw that OSA-MA, the almost complete analog of OSA-AK. Layout and antennas are not counted. Here are just a different PSA(analog computer) and stability system - on land airframe (gyros and vertical gyroscopes). A rocket is the same, except that the wings fold up and stuff in TPK.
....Because cipher and has 9M33M2. But this universality of all evils. How not to upgrade your PSA, and if the rocket is not designed to destroy aircraft (aircraft), but only for his defeat, the result respectively. Aspen missiles with high-explosive effect within 5m, and that we are on the TTC - complex provides guidance to within 15m. That is, the destruction of the aircraft is not guaranteed. And we have to deal with anti-ship missiles flying at a low altitude, the discovery of which, and its fire can be the minimum distance at which the affected but not destroyed (not destroyed) Anti-Ship Missile can fly into the board. I do not know if my idea is clear, but it is that in the Navy as opposed to the land we have to deal with the ship and anti-ship missiles, and the ship is easier to be hit. And in the performance of practical shooting, and even if such violations that were at the last shooting "Monsoon" further increases this risk. I believe that the versatility of this missile has also become one of the factors that led to the death of the "Monsoon".
piston you dud a great job on my greate begginner subject
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 06/27/1307:52 AM
Originally Posted By: piston79
To developer:
Will "Karat" became blind/broken when targeting the sun?
Not decided yet... ... probably not.
Still Karat is seen as an experiment, not sure if it will be in the final release... (depends if it will be smooth enough in my Intel-i7 8 core 2.8Ghz CPU) ... anyway, if you do not switch it on, than the code will be faster.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 06/27/1308:26 AM
Hello Hpasp, is SAMSIM able to use more than one CPU core or is it a single threaded application? I do not know if multithreading is even possible in VB (I program only in Delphi and C).
Hello Hpasp, is SAMSIM able to use more than one CPU core or is it a single threaded application? I do not know if multithreading is even possible in VB (I program only in Delphi and C).
The main SAMSIM VB code is using one processor only (for logic, and math) but for displaying, I extensively use 2d graphic API of Windows. That use all available system resources.
Will "Karat" became blind/broken when targeting the sun?
Not decided yet... ... probably not.
Still Karat is seen as an experiment, not sure if it will be in the final release... (depends if it will be smooth enough in my Intel-i7 8 core 2.8Ghz CPU) ... anyway, if you do not switch it on, than the code will be faster.
i am full agree with hpasp decision ! Karat item could be an experiment for systems
im not sure that we should wait more than 9 months just for karat item ! hpasp could create karat for samsim as a expansion patch at future !
i guess it is good idea right hpasp ? if u agree that karat could an expantion patch , so you can keep working on samsim without stress and without wasing time for karat
without karat , samsim stand on top of other simulators head ! like a boss
Guys, once we have Karat for the SA-8, it could probably be very easily ported to the SA-2E, SA-2F, SA-4 and ZSU-23-4. All of these have either a TV or telescope system.
It's not a tiny thing restricted to just the SA-8, It could revolutionise the entire simulator!
Guys, once we have Karat for the SA-8, it could probably be very easily ported to the SA-2E, SA-2F, SA-4 and ZSU-23-4. All of these have either a TV or telescope system.
It's not a tiny thing restricted to just the SA-8, It could revolutionise the entire simulator!
For SHORAD TV/IR camera is a must. For medium and long range systems is not an essential feature . What ever Hpasp will decide it will well accepted.
Guys, once we have Karat for the SA-8, it could probably be very easily ported to the SA-2E, SA-2F, SA-4 and ZSU-23-4. All of these have either a TV or telescope system.
It's not a tiny thing restricted to just the SA-8, It could revolutionise the entire simulator!
For SHORAD TV/IR camera is a must. For medium and long range systems is not an essential feature . What ever Hpasp will decide it will well accepted.
During Desert Storm, the most effective SAM system was the S-75M Volhov (SA-2E). They used Karat, and launched only at close range. Pretty effective tactics against jamming and HARMs...
Guys, once we have Karat for the SA-8, it could probably be very easily ported to the SA-2E, SA-2F, SA-4 and ZSU-23-4. All of these have either a TV or telescope system.
It's not a tiny thing restricted to just the SA-8, It could revolutionise the entire simulator!
mdore@ i dont said no karat ! i just said , we can have it after release normal sa-8 ! hpasp could done karats for all systems at one expansion patch at future after sa-8 !
Guys, once we have Karat for the SA-8, it could probably be very easily ported to the SA-2E, SA-2F, SA-4 and ZSU-23-4. All of these have either a TV or telescope system.
It's not a tiny thing restricted to just the SA-8, It could revolutionise the entire simulator!
For SHORAD TV/IR camera is a must. For medium and long range systems is not an essential feature . What ever Hpasp will decide it will well accepted.
During Desert Storm, the most effective SAM system was the S-75M Volhov (SA-2E). They used Karat, and launched only at close range. Pretty effective tactics against jamming and HARMs...
The only system with verified target destruction was sa-8b. 18 tomahawk downed !!
This is fair but half story. In order the story to be full,we have to know how many missiles fired in total and if the engagements were at the capabilities of the given systems. If you use a medium/long range system as a vshorad,me personally I can't see any reason to celebrate.it is a desperate situation for the defenders.
In 1967, after another unsuccessful shooting trial, all original designers were replaced.
The new one, VP Efremov (he designed the SA-4) proposed to delete the requirement of shooting on the run, replacing it with a short stop shooting (deleting the SSC stabilization system), and offered adding a second missile channel.
After a heated discussion of the proposal, despite the protests were on the meeting as representatives of Grau, PN Kuleshov agreed to changes in the technical order.
So while the NAVY version kept the target tracking radar stabilization, with only one missile channel, the army version could shoot only during stops, but with 2 missiles
So while the NAVY version kept the target tracking radar stabilization, with only one missile channel, the army version could shoot only during stops, but with 2 missiles
Thanks, man! I thought it is just like that, but didn't found an 100% evidence in materials I read...
we will meet 9m33m2 missile of osa right ? dear hpasp could u add 9m33m3 for osa too ? 9m33m2 engage alt is very very low.. what is your logical idea?
this hapened coud be done ? or not ? replace 9m33m2 with 9m33m3 could be give high engage point to user ...
There is no evidence that 9m33m3 ever exist with these kind of capabilities ! These are nonsense written over the Internet. They confuse the different models of OSA (ak,akm) and create conspiracy theories for missiles also. Most probably they saw the saman missile which is a modified m2/m3 missile for training activities (less speed and 15 km range).
The blast of the warhead is a 60 deg conical shaped. The effective range (the high of the cone) is 12m. Also the proximity fuse ,for approaching airplane, is ~12m.
I guess so, but it is probably for 9M33 missile (OSA-M).... Unfortunately, the man, who created those drawings passed away two months ago....
I am sorry for that gay.!
Technically wise is impossible to have the proximity fuse in front only and expect to destroy a target with 15 kgr warhead with side blast ! This happen with semi active missiles ( I know about hawk) with massive warheads and side fuse antennas . In OSA case the fuse cone and blast cone ,coincide.
I guess so, but it is probably for 9M33 missile (OSA-M).... Unfortunately, the man, who created those drawings passed away two months ago....
I am sorry for that gay.!
Technically wise is impossible to have the proximity fuse in front only and expect to destroy a target with 15 kgr warhead with side blast ! This happen with semi active missiles ( I know about hawk) with massive warheads and side fuse antennas . In OSA case the fuse cone and blast cone ,coincide.
This is his drawing for the radiofuse cone:
On this and previous drawing, the dotted line represents the area of the fragment dispersion in dynamic (when missile's speed added 500/m/s), on the previous - continuous line - when the missile (warhead) is static....
I guess so, but it is probably for 9M33 missile (OSA-M).... Unfortunately, the man, who created those drawings passed away two months ago....
I am sorry for that gay.!
Technically wise is impossible to have the proximity fuse in front only and expect to destroy a target with 15 kgr warhead with side blast ! This happen with semi active missiles ( I know about hawk) with massive warheads and side fuse antennas . In OSA case the fuse cone and blast cone ,coincide.
This is his drawing for the radiofuse cone:
On this and previous drawing, the dotted line represents the area of the fragment dispersion in dynamic (when missile's speed added 500/m/s), on the previous - continuous line - when the missile (warhead) is static....
Most probaly (i guess) he was tring to explain the gap between the moment of detonation vs the velocity of the target. This has been solved in OSA missiles, by introducing an appropriate delay of detonation (in order the missile to come closer to the target and detonate) for helicopters and receding targets.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 07/03/1310:34 AM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Most probaly (i guess) he was tring to explain the gap between the moment of detonation vs the velocity of the target. This has been solved in OSA missiles, by introducing an appropriate delay of detonation (in order the missile to come closer to the target and detonate) for helicopters and receding targets.
His drawings are in a relations with a tragical incident during exercises in USSR Pacific NAVY (OSA-MA failed to destroy antiship missile, which after been damaged by gunfire, suddently changes it's course and hits the shooting ship). One of the reasons for the accident is that OSA-MA was loaded with older 9M33 missiles, instead of the newer verson, that's why I think those drawings are relative for the 9M33 missile... Note that in the last image, the blue cone of radiofuse is within dotted line of fragments dynamic area...
As per delay in detonation - it was introduced in later missiles (M/M2, probably), to counter early detonations due ground proximity (that's what I found in I-net)...
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 07/03/1311:18 AM
Originally Posted By: piston79
[quote=ePap]
As per delay in detonation - it was introduced in later missiles (M/M2, probably), to counter early detonations due ground proximity (that's what I found in I-net)...
Nop.This is not truth.
The delay detonation is huge improvement of OSA system, for engaging helicopters and receding targets.
The ground effect possible detonation and thus the OSA missile not to go lower than 25 m was solved to OSA akm model ,introducing new trajectory of missile higher from the line sight of TTR (zoom climb mode-part of method Fi).
By the way,we have spoken so much for the OSA missiles and it is the only part of the system which actually never see it in Samsim ( I mean the specific and detailed issues that we discuss). Hpasp will do the fine job and we will just push the red button (I think), or not ...
PS: you are all invited to my promotion party, from junior I become member...
Re: OSA work in progress video released... - 07/06/1307:48 AM
Originally Posted By: piston79
No idea...
Switch initial position at elevation station. Rod switch is in TP position!!! Not in red dot ! In real OSA you can't lock and fire with the switch in this position! Only with simulator connected .
Re: OSA work in progress video released... - 07/06/1303:32 PM
The visual indication of missile path seems very straight compared to those in real videos ~ there seems to be a lot of oscillation around the mean flight-path.
Don't know whether this is because missile flight and guidance are in an early phase or because this 'wobble' is under-represented generally. It is only slight when seen as a 3d line, but when viewed from the 'end' like this, the error correction responses should be more visible IMO.
Re: OSA work in progress video released... - 07/06/1304:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Lieste
The visual indication of missile path seems very straight compared to those in real videos ~ there seems to be a lot of oscillation around the mean flight-path.
Don't know whether this is because missile flight and guidance are in an early phase or because this 'wobble' is under-represented generally. It is only slight when seen as a 3d line, but when viewed from the 'end' like this, the error correction responses should be more visible IMO.
Agree, this was just the first iteration of missile smoke trail. The missile rotation is not added yet.
When I decided to upload these status reports, my idea was to show you how the development progresses. There is at least a half year of code development ahead, so...
- do not ask to be released at this point - do not expect perfect behavior
If these sneak-peaks gives you false expectations, that I can avoid these in the future easily...
i fully agree with missile rotation and flight pass in video ! when we use from karat for what reason ? because we want see missile move on air till impact point ! right hpasp ? what do u think ? could u create any missile feature in karat for us that can be roaring and maneuvering flying on karat ? do u have a model ? if yes please share it to us !
i just say my idea because some times developer need some ideas from users ! why u guys ? why ashamed me ?
These are not ideas farokh. This is not a si-Fi simulator!It is a real system sim. You put pure pressure to the developer !!!don't you understand this?
Please tune your approach.It is annoying. Hpasps deserves a lot better approach and also the other guys in that forum.
i just say my idea because some times developer need some ideas from users ! why u guys ? why ashamed me ?
Please understand that these screenshots/videos are recorded during development. Im lucky to have severalreal operators who (were there, and done that) and helping development.
After these screenshots/videos shared, I receive several proposals/corrections from them to make this SIM more accurate.
Im just posting these here to show you the stage of the daily development...
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 07/07/1307:34 AM
Thanks for the update Hpasp!
I understood very few steps you took in the video. Just rotating, turning on dial lights and camera zoom. Everything else you did in the video I didn't understand at all :P
It seems complicated, but that's probably just because I don't know the system.
An idea just came to me, you're probably not going to be able to do it, but if there's a HARM incoming, can we tell the driver to move the vehicle?
hpasp said (2013.03.22) Announcement The next SAM system, to be added into the SAM Simulator "Realistic to the Switch" will be the 9K33M2 Osa-AK (SA-8B Gecko). https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/
Even if he creates AKM, it doesn't matter as "OSA" was never fielded in Hungary, thus - no problem of creating it... (despite "Kub")...
Who said that is a problem to create -AKM ?On the contrary,it will help a lot mil personnel in training!!!
Black cat ( -AK) or white cat (-AKM),as soon as she cats mice (targets) it's fine !e?
Epap @ without kidding , are u serius ? hpasp now working on OSA-AKM ?
I always use to be serius .
What is going to be the difference for you ? AK or akm is going to be the same for you,as sim-operator. In real could be some minor differences for specific occasions.
What is going to be the difference for you ? AK or akm is going to be the same for you,as sim-operator. In real could be some minor differences for specific occasions.
because im in shocked from this news !!!! here is big different between this two!!! AK can atack with 9m33m2 to 10km range and 15000ft .... but AKM can engage with 9m33m3 to 15km range and 40000 ft !
so here is big different between this 2 and i am so happy now !
so tell me about 9m33m3 missile.... do u have any photo from 9m33m2 and 9m33m3 ? about shape and design style 9m33m2 and 9m33m3 has what different between each other? tell me about : Weight Length Diameter and warhead
What is going to be the difference for you ? AK or akm is going to be the same for you,as sim-operator. In real could be some minor differences for specific occasions.
because im in shocked from this news !!!! here is big different between this two!!! AK can atack with 9m33m2 to 10km range and 15000ft .... but AKM can engage with 9m33m3 to 15km range and 40000 ft !
so here is big different between this 2 and i am so happy now !
so tell me about 9m33m3 missile.... do u have any photo from 9m33m2 and 9m33m3 ? about shape and design style 9m33m2 and 9m33m3 has what different between each other? tell me about : Weight Length Diameter
Oh,my God !!! Not again !!! Please.Piston79,heeelp
Just go back to page 39 and read ,not only with eyes ...
Variants
Click to reveal..
9K33 "Osa" (US DoD designation SA-8A "Gecko") began development in 1960 and was introduced in 1971-1972 with four exposed 9M33 missiles per TELAR 9A33B and a maximum range of 12 km (7.5 mi). 9K33M "OSA-M" (NATO reporting name SA-N-4 "Gecko") was introduced in 1972 and is the naval version of the system with two 9M33M missiles on a Zif-122 retractable rotating launcher and improved performance. It has been installed on Gepard class frigate, Kara class guided missile cruisers, Kiev class VTOL cruisers and also the Kirov, Slava and Krivak classes. 9K33M2 "Osa-AK" (US DoD designation SA-8B "Gecko Mod-0") with TELAR 9A33BM2 was introduced in 1975 with the new six-missile box launcher, each 9M33M2 missile being a sealed round. 9K33M3 "Osa-AKM" (US DoD designation SA-8B "Gecko Mod-1") with TELAR 9A33BM3 and missiles 9M33M3 was introduced in 1980 with the maximum range extended to 15 km (9.3 mi) and maximum altitude to 12 km (40,000 ft) as explained above. Most OSA-AKM systems also feature an IFF antenna.
Missiles
Click to reveal..
Engagement range for the early versions is approximately 2–9 km (1.3-5.6 miles) and engagement altitudes of between 50–5000 m (164-16,400 ft). The 9M33M2 "Osa-A" missile extends the ranges out to 1500-10000m (1-6.2 miles) and engagement altitudes to 25–5000 m (82-16,400 ft). The 9M33M3 missile greatly enhances the altitude engagement envelope to 10–12000 m (33-42,500 ft), and as such are also able to fly further (about 15 km/9 miles) but the system is not able to engage targets at longer ranges, due to other factors such as the radar tracking of the missiles. The system is designed for use primarily against jet aircraft and helicopters in any kind of weather.
The 9M33 missiles are 3.158 m (10.3 ft) long, weigh 126 kg (278 lb) and use command guidance. There is also a backup low-light optical tracking system for heavy ECM environments. The latest 9M33M3 missiles have an increased total weight of 170 kg (375 lb) in order to provide the extended range coverage and larger warhead. Propulsion is provided by a dual-thrust solid fuel rocket motor. Both versions feature a missile speed of around Mach 2.4 (peaking at around Mach 3) for a maximum target engagement speed of around Mach 1.4 for the original missile and Mach 1.6 for the M2\M3 missiles. The warhead for the initial and M2 versions weighs 19 kg (42 pounds), increased to 40 kg (88 lb) in the M3 version to improve performance against helicopters. All versions have impact and proximity fuzes.
Just go back to page 39 and read ,not only with eyes ...
Click to reveal..
9K33 "Osa" (US DoD designation SA-8A "Gecko") began development in 1960 and was introduced in 1971-1972 with four exposed 9M33 missiles per TELAR 9A33B and a maximum range of 12 km (7.5 mi). 9K33M "OSA-M" (NATO reporting name SA-N-4 "Gecko") was introduced in 1972 and is the naval version of the system with two 9M33M missiles on a Zif-122 retractable rotating launcher and improved performance. It has been installed on Gepard class frigate, Kara class guided missile cruisers, Kiev class VTOL cruisers and also the Kirov, Slava and Krivak classes. 9K33M2 "Osa-AK" (US DoD designation SA-8B "Gecko Mod-0") with TELAR 9A33BM2 was introduced in 1975 with the new six-missile box launcher, each 9M33M2 missile being a sealed round. 9K33M3 "Osa-AKM" (US DoD designation SA-8B "Gecko Mod-1") with TELAR 9A33BM3 and missiles 9M33M3 was introduced in 1980 with the maximum range extended to 15 km (9.3 mi) and maximum altitude to 12 km (40,000 ft) as explained above. Most OSA-AKM systems also feature an IFF antenna.
Click to reveal..
Engagement range for the early versions is approximately 2–9 km (1.3-5.6 miles) and engagement altitudes of between 50–5000 m (164-16,400 ft). The 9M33M2 "Osa-A" missile extends the ranges out to 1500-10000m (1-6.2 miles) and engagement altitudes to 25–5000 m (82-16,400 ft). The 9M33M3 missile greatly enhances the altitude engagement envelope to 10–12000 m (33-42,500 ft), and as such are also able to fly further (about 15 km/9 miles) but the system is not able to engage targets at longer ranges, due to other factors such as the radar tracking of the missiles. The system is designed for use primarily against jet aircraft and helicopters in any kind of weather.
i read wiki and i read page 39 too but im confused between this 2 different words !
that what i asking questions !!!!
If you don't realize, you are telling me and Hpasp idiots as soon as wiki exists and YOU pick up information from there e!!
If you are confused choose one but stop that. I told you before,tune up your approach. Here is a friendly place and we contribute with knowledge. If you can't follow the depth of answers try harder, read more the official papers/documents given to you by the developer.
I have no hard feelings man but find another way of approach,this won't work any more.
PS: I think you are lucky haven't born in ancient Sparta ...
Trust me, that this will be THE all time favorite system for all the SAMSIM beginners.
I remembered those Hpasp's words when read this (from a real professional - google translator):
Quote:
Simulators. The simulator on the Osa-MA gorgeous! I listened attentively to the news. Everybody scream, aircraft shot down, the Georgians idiots, they cannot shoot, it should be only the Ukrainians! To do this you mast learn long time ! #%&*$#! Within two hours preparing any crew on Osa-Ma to perform the firings. (No maintnance, only combat use) Of course, even then you need to train the battalion commander at introductory, in the case of possible failures. Do not believe me? At least, I can cite two recent cases of it. 1. Varyag (Red Ukraine) is going on a visit by South Korea. Somehow the crew was disbanded, there was only a battalion commander. All the others are far from life (do not know a #%&*$#). Out to sea, with a control check before departure. In the post down FRO 36 Vadik Riabinin DRC. He is trying to check the crew, the commander goes mad. Vadim asked me, Valera help. After 40 minutes, the crew worked like clockwork. At this point, the actual target was discovered, a plane that was landing at the airport. The target was locked-on in seconds, no problems with tracking and electronically shooting. 2. And another case is almost just before his retirement. On the flotilla planned shooting, plus came from the IPC Sovgavan. So, as I was then serving in the URAV, iI received an order to test the readiness of the crew. The audit showed, that because the ship were out of fuel and power for six months, there was no crew either. We had to do something. On one of the IASC I gathered experts LTO (unfortunately, they were all graduates of the Faculty of PNI miners, not fools and by the time I taught them a thing or two per year, but no experience of operator's training) and two zrdn's. Planted two officers instead of operators, combat staff - lieutenant out of school, the rest stay behind and started training. Again, after 40 minutes the crew performed all procedures for opening fire on any target. The main thing! There was an example, and the training of operators has begun!
Trust me, that this will be THE all time favorite system for all the SAMSIM beginners.
I remembered those Hpasp's words when read this (from a real professional - google translator):
Quote:
Simulators. The simulator on the Osa-MA gorgeous! I listened attentively to the news. Everybody scream, aircraft shot down, the Georgians idiots, they cannot shoot, it should be only the Ukrainians! To do this you mast learn long time ! #%&*$#! Within two hours preparing any crew on Osa-Ma to perform the firings. (No maintnance, only combat use) Of course, even then you need to train the battalion commander at introductory, in the case of possible failures. Do not believe me? At least, I can cite two recent cases of it. 1. Varyag (Red Ukraine) is going on a visit by South Korea. Somehow the crew was disbanded, there was only a battalion commander. All the others are far from life (do not know a #%&*$#). Out to sea, with a control check before departure. In the post down FRO 36 Vadik Riabinin DRC. He is trying to check the crew, the commander goes mad. Vadim asked me, Valera help. After 40 minutes, the crew worked like clockwork. At this point, the actual target was discovered, a plane that was landing at the airport. The target was locked-on in seconds, no problems with tracking and electronically shooting. 2. And another case is almost just before his retirement. On the flotilla planned shooting, plus came from the IPC Sovgavan. So, as I was then serving in the URAV, iI received an order to test the readiness of the crew. The audit showed, that because the ship were out of fuel and power for six months, there was no crew either. We had to do something. On one of the IASC I gathered experts LTO (unfortunately, they were all graduates of the Faculty of PNI miners, not fools and by the time I taught them a thing or two per year, but no experience of operator's training) and two zrdn's. Planted two officers instead of operators, combat staff - lieutenant out of school, the rest stay behind and started training. Again, after 40 minutes the crew performed all procedures for opening fire on any target. The main thing! There was an example, and the training of operators has begun!
I'm preparing a crew in two hours!
In order to use OSA akm system effectively you need a lot of hard work. The stories about preparing a crew in two hours is for laughters.
The system man machine interface is friendly but need coordination of three operators. The search radar and the 3 zones is a negative gap and loosing time to find the target. The lack of digital process of search radar do the job more difficult .
Especially when you use enlisted soldiers (servicemen for 12 months) Of course in some countries (former Warsaw pack) the personnel remained in the same position for 20 years and this make things much easier.
In general it is very hard to maintain high level of availability and training according to Russian standards Especially in maintenance .This is my experience.
In general it is very hard to maintain high level of availability and training according to Russian standards Especially in maintenance .This is my experience.
Within two hours preparing any crew on Osa-Ma to perform the firings. (No maintnance, only combat use) Of course, even then you need to train the battalion commander at introductory, in the case of possible failures...
In general it is very hard to maintain high level of availability and training according to Russian standards Especially in maintenance .This is my experience.
Within two hours preparing any crew on Osa-Ma to perform the firings. (No maintnance, only combat use) Of course, even then you need to train the battalion commander at introductory, in the case of possible failures...
Don't forget that naval version is different . Has no peculiarities with the 3 searching zones , no ground effects and (I assume) longer range from integration of ship long range early warning.
in real life ! when one harm launch at you what do u do at this situation ? sa-8 for run from harm using from IRZ decoy Or you tell to driver to move to somewhere ?
in real life ! when one harm launch at you what do u do at this situation ? sa-8 for run from harm using from IRZ decoy Or you tell to driver to move to somewhere ?
If you will tell me how do I know that a harm is coming towards me then I will tell you what I will do .
in real life ! when one harm launch at you what do u do at this situation ? sa-8 for run from harm using from IRZ decoy Or you tell to driver to move to somewhere ?
If you will tell me how do I know that a harm is coming towards me then I will tell you what I will do .
While you try to find how you will realize that you are the target of an incoming Harm ,I would suggest to do the following :
in real life ! when one harm launch at you what do u do at this situation ? sa-8 for run from harm using from IRZ decoy Or you tell to driver to move to somewhere ?
If you will tell me how do I know that a harm is coming towards me then I will tell you what I will do .
While you try to find how you will realize that you are the target of an incoming Harm ,I would suggest to do the following :
in real life ! when one harm launch at you what do u do at this situation ? sa-8 for run from harm using from IRZ decoy Or you tell to driver to move to somewhere ?
If you will tell me how do I know that a harm is coming towards me then I will tell you what I will do .
While you try to find how you will realize that you are the target of an incoming Harm ,I would suggest to do the following :
Two missile launched against a P-15 in Ustka... ... double kill.
where is the explosion wave? i see 2 circle ! are they the explosion wave ? would u showing us in high zoom so i guess missile proximity fuse created ?
PS: oo my god ... we are so close to one and new hobby ! i praying every day that this project be ready very soon , before when papa noel wants back .....
dear hpasp would u create one another movie for us with better resolution ????? with sound of course ! i love hear to radar and launch sound ! PS: how it is possible that you without transmitter!!!! can guiding missile to target ? missile how can know that where is target on sky ?
ps2: what is blue line in karat ! i ee one line that goes down ! is it flight path of target ?
could we rotate karat cadre, with drag mouse left click on TV screen and rotate it to up/ down/ left/ right/ with left ????
i dont know nothing about karating but as i know.... after launch you need to guide missile with karat boresight to target right ? so we azimuth and elevation wheels ... its very hard to move and down !
maybe im in wrong mind!!!! please help if i say wrong thing
Obviously SNR is on, but search and tracking radars are using a dummy load. The Guidance radar is providing active course/LOS information to the missile beacon.
I assume that it merely flies as a SACLOS missile along the LOS.
The target *may* get a launch warning if their ECM fit is aware of the relevant frequencies and 9M33 operation modes, but not enough to locate or fire an ARM against it. An optical ASM might be a possibility if the launch site can be identified, but the SAM will reach the target before the ASM reaches the ground, and it would need to be another aircraft that Id'd and targeted the launcher, while the target attempts to/evades the missile.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 07/13/1309:42 AM
Originally Posted By: farokh
on question during KARATing to hpasp @
could we rotate karat cadre, with drag mouse left click on TV screen and rotate it to up/ down/ left/ right/ with left ????
i dont know nothing about karating but as i know.... after launch you need to guide missile with karat boresight to target right ? so we azimuth and elevation wheels ... its very hard to move and down !
maybe im in wrong mind!!!! please help if i say wrong thing
My plan is a bit unrealistic approach ... ... if you manage to bring the target close to the crosshair with the wheels, you can lock it visually by pressing PA, and then your virtual operators will track it. Reason for this (already debated) approach, is that you need a mouse to be able to press the launch button, and switch other missile related switches.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 07/13/1310:21 AM
The heat of the battle (with carat) belongs to OSA AK/akm . Adrenaline produced only in Shorad systems. Less reaction time,best game play,more adrenaline !!!
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 07/13/1310:37 AM
Originally Posted By: ePap
The heat of the battle (with carat) belongs to OSA AK/akm . Adrenaline produced only in Shorad systems. Less reaction time,best game play,more adrenaline !!!
Might be interesting to note here, that the SAME Karat-2 "Optical Target Tracking System" was used with the Volhov, Neva, KUB, KRUG, OSA systems.
In each system it had the same f=150mm and the f=500mm telephoto lens systems. Its weight is 54kg!!!
Obviously SNR is on, but search and tracking radars are using a dummy load. The Guidance radar is providing active course/LOS information to the missile beacon.
There is a major disadvantage of "OSA"'s KARAT, compared to the other systems - KARAT is too close to the launching containers, so the smoke could be a problem sometimes... The manual recommends to lock the target on AS, before launch in case smoke makes KARAT useless....
Obviously SNR is on, but search and tracking radars are using a dummy load. The Guidance radar is providing active course/LOS information to the missile beacon.
There is a major disadvantage of "OSA"'s KARAT, compared to the other systems - KARAT is too close to the launching containers, so the smoke could be a problem sometimes... The manual recommends to lock the target on AS, before launch in case smoke makes KARAT useless....
We solved that problem by installing very strong fans blowing upwards and in front of carat ...
Obviously SNR is on, but search and tracking radars are using a dummy load. The Guidance radar is providing active course/LOS information to the missile beacon.
There is a major disadvantage of "OSA"'s KARAT, compared to the other systems - KARAT is too close to the launching containers, so the smoke could be a problem sometimes... The manual recommends to lock the target on AS, before launch in case smoke makes KARAT useless....
We solved that problem by installing very strong fans blowing upwards and in front of carat ...
You can see clearly how well its working . Clear view for Carat ...
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 07/14/1305:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Maybe radar turret (fire control radar and missile tracking antennas) is looking up?
You are close but not precise . You can move the Target Tracking Radar manually in what ever elevation you like ,without been locked on target... But...
Now it makes sense, it must be those 28 degs for MSR only since missile always starts with this angle and TTR is looking at angle of the target independently. Thanks
Now it makes sense, it must be those 28 degs for MSR only since missile always starts with this angle and TTR is looking at angle of the target independently. Thanks
Also don't forget that after lift off the MSR steer the missile and put it in the narrow beam of TTR (~300/500 m from OSA). After this the specific MSR follows the movements of TTR antena while the other one remains at 28 deg. waiting for a possible missile fire to the same target.
i read somewhere that OSA accuracy is between 5 till 7 meters and at hard target 10 ... but in last AFTER ACTION REPORT by last trying hpasp with karat mode ....missile explosive distance to target was so far !!! between 17 and 21 meters ..... this error was for karat accuracy or proximity fuse in OSA sometimes detonating sooner than ideal moment ? osa can kill target from 21 meters ?
i read somewhere that OSA accuracy is between 5 till 7 meters and at hard target 10 ... but in last AFTER ACTION REPORT by last trying hpasp with karat mode ....missile explosive distance to target was so far !!! between 17 and 21 meters ..... this error was for karat accuracy or proximity fuse in OSA sometimes detonating sooner than ideal moment ? osa can kill target from 21 meters ?
Accuracy may be given as a SD ~ almost (but not exactly) 50% of missiles will pass in a box of this height and width (69% for each separately). By roughly 3x this dimension you can expect 'around' 95% of correctly functioning missiles will pass inside the 'box'.
The target has non-zero dimension. Even with a contact only fuse you would see detonations at non zero miss-distances as the rule, rather than exception. Miss distance being the deviation of the impact from either the aim-point or target centroid.
Setting warhead size, and fusing radius to around 3SD, plus a little for target dimension maximises utility of the system accuracy without unduly reducing missile performance, increasing overall size and weight or having ineffective 'fusing events', or unfused 'lethal-distance' misses.
i read somewhere that OSA accuracy is between 5 till 7 meters and at hard target 10 ... but in last AFTER ACTION REPORT by last trying hpasp with karat mode ....missile explosive distance to target was so far !!! between 17 and 21 meters ..... this error was for karat accuracy or proximity fuse in OSA sometimes detonating sooner than ideal moment ? osa can kill target from 21 meters ?
With an OSA you can do anything you like ...
i ask few question and you rotating me !!!! it was not an answer lol
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 07/15/1303:58 AM
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: farokh
Epap@
i read somewhere that OSA accuracy is between 5 till 7 meters and at hard target 10 ... but in last AFTER ACTION REPORT by last trying hpasp with karat mode ....missile explosive distance to target was so far !!! between 17 and 21 meters ..... this error was for karat accuracy or proximity fuse in OSA sometimes detonating sooner than ideal moment ? osa can kill target from 21 meters ?
With an OSA you can do anything you like ...
i ask few question and you rotating me !!!! it was not an answer lol
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/17/1301:14 PM
Originally Posted By: farokh
great +1000 but.... i guess this plane is like f-16 or f-18 ! of course at my eyese ! would u take another photo from closer range ?
PS: OSA-AK could hunt maverick missile ?
The Karat-2 Camera system has f=150mm wide view, or the f=500mm narrow (zoom in) view. If you ever tried to photo military jets at an air-show, you will recognize, that targets will be always small on the Karat screen, except if they are suicidal, or doing practice flight.
f=500mm narrow (zoom in) view of an F-4 Phantom at 10km range. (where our missile should hit him)
f=500mm narrow (zoom in) view of an F-4 Phantom at 3km range. (now he is already finished his bombing run on us)
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/17/1301:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: farokh
great +1000 but.... i guess this plane is like f-16 or f-18 ! of course at my eyese ! would u take another photo from closer range ?
PS: OSA-AK could hunt maverick missile ?
The Karat-2 Camera system has f=150mm wide view, or the f=500mm narrow (zoom in) view. If you ever tried to photo military jets at an air-show, you will recognize, that targets will be always small on the Karat screen, except if they are suicidal, or doing practice flight.
f=500mm narrow (zoom in) view of an F-4 Phantom at 10km range. (where our missile should hit him)
f=500mm narrow (zoom in) view of an F-4 Phantom at 3km range. (now he is already finished his bombing run on us)
hpasp what about other models on ashuluk and other scenarios ? f-111 / f16 / f-18 / a-7 corsair / a-6 / f-105 / a-4 sky hawk .....what about them ? did i work on them yet ? or just phantom modeled ?
It looks to be a the 'key' that prevents the missile body rotating while in the launch tube - look to the left of the image. Remember that the fins rotate compared to the rocket body.
It looks to be a the 'key' that prevents the missile body rotating while in the launch tube - look to the left of the image. Remember that the fins rotate compared to the rocket body.
The missile starts rotating after it is locked in range from MSR (missile sighting radar) which happens when the missile is at least 30-50 m and the aft fins have fully unfolded.After this the computer starts creating k1 and k2 commands who actually force missile to rotate (rolling).
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/17/1306:43 PM
Clearly marked as Transportirovanii ~ means 'Shipping' or something akin ~ and still appears to be an anti-rotation key.
(Remember that the aft end support is likely to be not 'stable' or intended for both load bearing and fixing the orientation of the body in the tube. Given the requirement to maintain connections to the launcher it probably isn't a great idea to have the missile rotating in the tube ~ damage to the connectors and/or waveguides is a possibility if more than a trivial amount of movement was permitted...)
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/17/1306:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Lieste
Clearly marked as Transportirovanii ~ means 'Shipping' or something akin ~ and still appears to be an anti-rotation key.
I would appreciate if you can point with an arrow or with something else which exactly part of the missile you are talking about, because bay be a have misunderstand you .
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/17/1308:13 PM
Ok, so 'most' are merely latches that attach warhead to propulsion, but 'several' also key to the launch cannister - each is also present as a female 'notch' in the interior of the transport can that can be seen in the smaller image the questioner referred to.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/17/1308:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
f=500mm narrow (zoom in) view of an F-4 Phantom at 3km range. (now he is already finished his bombing run on us)
Click to reveal..
How about better resolution in "zoom in" KARAT mode? it could be dependable of certain distance for every type of target (bigger or smaller)? Is this possible or too much load for the engine?
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/17/1308:35 PM
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
f=500mm narrow (zoom in) view of an F-4 Phantom at 3km range. (now he is already finished his bombing run on us)
Click to reveal..
How about better resolution in "zoom in" KARAT mode? it could be dependable of certain distance for every type of target (bigger or smaller)? Is this possible or too much load for the engine?
Also better calibration of carat (off from cross hair)...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/27/1309:03 AM
as we hear about osa fragments ! they are like steel balls ! like shotgun firing ! so number 2 is better answer but here is same question !
with miss distance 5 meter ... target could be kill with explosion wave ? so from 5 meters + explosion wave + some of balls fragments ! kill percent going to high level !
this is easy question but for me hard to say
PS: Epap@ OSA warhead have how many of explosion degrees ? this question could be help us to say true answer !!!!
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/27/1309:44 AM
Originally Posted By: farokh
as we hear about osa fragments ! they are like steel balls ! like shotgun firing ! so number 2 is better answer but here is same question !
with miss distance 5 meter ... target could be kill with explosion wave ? so from 5 meters + explosion wave + some of balls fragments ! kill percent going to high level !
this is easy question but for me hard to say
PS: Epap@ OSA warhead have how many of explosion degrees ? this question could be help us to say true answer !!!!
I also like your approach ,
BUT the PS has already answered to you with pm long time ago. ...piston79 will be right one more time, I guess...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/27/1301:19 PM
well, Mmmmm as i know , when one sam missile detonate near the target warhead for better doing affect on target need distance till fragments can propagate on air and get speed for Influence at target's body !
and fragments can affect on every where on target's body with my explain ! we are close to case 2
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/27/1302:01 PM
I would guess it depends on position of missile detonation in relation to target position, is it infront, behind, or to the side/up/down.
If it is behind, I would go with farokh's 5m because of the shockwave, but depending on target speed this could do little damage. If it is in front, then 12m, as mdore suggested shrapnel spreading. If it is to the side than 5m again, as 12m shot would have shrapnel fly behind a target (taking 60 degree shrapnel cone)
Of course the more I typed the more I felt it has nothing to do with the warhead, maybe it is a trick question. Then maybe Im just getting paranoid.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/27/1302:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Vympel
I would guess it depends on position of missile detonation in relation to target position, is it infront, behind, or to the side/up/down.
If it is behind, I would go with farokh's 5m because of the shockwave, but depending on target speed this could do little damage. If it is in front, then 12m, as mdore suggested shrapnel spreading. If it is to the side than 5m again, as 12m shot would have shrapnel fly behind a target (taking 60 degree shrapnel cone)
Of course the more I typed the more I felt it has nothing to do with the warhead, maybe it is a trick question. Then maybe Im just getting paranoid.
The question refers to approaching targets.
You are right , it has nothing to do with the warhead but with the proximity fuse .
Proximity fuse is energized with k3 and always in a standard and fixed way (receive certain number of frequency returns from the target).
In our case the position of the target in relation to the axis of the missile is the KEY. The missile ,if the target is inside the 60 deg of proximity fuse,should detonate always in a fixed distance .
In first missile we have 5 m detonation (miss) distance which means the target was out of the expected window of proximity fuse and some how the missile get much closer of the expected optimum position and then received the required returns from the target and detonates.During this the missile maneuver and forced for better position and so the probability (parameters) for a kill ,is lower.
The second missile performed much better than the first one. It acquired the target with prox.fuse in optimum range and so it is expected a better kill probability.
Conclusion . The closer is not always the better when there is a directional warhead .
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/30/1302:58 PM
The carat view is not from original sa 8.Look like firing at night.The cross hair is different.May be an upgrade. The target is not an helicopter because in this range (estimation from missile flight time is less than 6 km) should be seen clearly. For me looks like training activity ...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/30/1303:58 PM
Google translator:
Quote:
Syria Islamic Liberation Front - the banner of Islam: The praise of God and the bounty for the first time in Syria, targeting Assad Army aircraft by the USA Russian-made system which has been grasped and developed by the banner of Islam in the region of Eastern Gota shown by imaging radar screen Alawsa cart. Have been confirmed killed both the pilot Colonel Nizar Ghanem and handsome pilot Capt. Rajab and Capt. Almkaniki and Qusay, were named in the helicopter that crashed near Damascus International Airport. To follow the news network Nora News
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/30/1304:35 PM
Originally Posted By: piston79
Google translator:
Quote:
Syria Islamic Liberation Front - the banner of Islam: The praise of God and the bounty for the first time in Syria, targeting Assad Army aircraft by the USA Russian-made system which has been grasped and developed by the banner of Islam in the region of Eastern Gota shown by imaging radar screen Alawsa cart. Have been confirmed killed both the pilot Colonel Nizar Ghanem and handsome pilot Capt. Rajab and Capt. Almkaniki and Qusay, were named in the helicopter that crashed near Damascus International Airport. To follow the news network Nora News
So you are convinced that the this video is from the described activity ?
My remarks still stand.Please convince me for the opposite .
Missile launch is at 00:15s, and detonation is at 00:28s. Missile flight time is approx 13s. Target should be at approx ~6km.
hpasp would u sent some detail about osa missile ? of course not some details like wikipedia or other websites !
some details like other missiles info in samsim doc
I can assure you, that the OSA sim will have the same quality documentation, as the earlier systems used to have. As the original OSA training material was already linked here, describing the missile in 10 pages, I do not really understand your request...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/30/1307:11 PM
It seems improbable that the warhead fires in a solid cone of 60 degree semi-angle (or full angle). Looking at the shape of the warhead section it *looks* like it is designed to give a fairly wide beam of fragments, someway ahead of the beam position. (probably centred on or slightly ahead of 30 degrees from the beam - which also seems to be the indication from the diagram posted earlier...).
I'd be very, very surprised by a 'solid cone', rather than a lateral band (hollow cone) type detonation pattern, although there does seem to be a significant tapering of the front of the warhead to shape the band away from a 'pure' lateral pattern. (as there is with an artillery shell, but it makes little difference to the main fragment 'spray' being concentrated into a slightly forward of beam 'hollow conical pattern').
There may be a double 'solid cone' effect if the fusing and fragmentation is focussed by initiation and timing to 'shape' the fragment pattern from a circular to an 8 shaped pattern about the missile axis but I've not seen anything to support or reject that possibility.
It would be extraordinarily unusual to have an 'axial' fragment pattern (as far as I am aware anyway) for a proximity fused warhead. They tend to be either 'beam' or 'generalised' patterns in most cases I am aware of.
There are a few contact only warheads with shaped charge warheads of course (the ultimate axial warhead), and it isn't uncommon for air-air missiles to use 'shaping' of the 'beam' fragmentation to concentrate the dense portion(s) to include the plane of the detected 'target', at the expense of less dense regions between.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/30/1308:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
Though ePap, the display says "WFOV" in some parts of the video. That probably stands for WIDE Field Of View. So not maximum zoom.
If so, it could be a helicopter.... There is a moment when they put some brightness and it appears a black silhouette on the screen.... We could try to calculate the size of the target, just a nice snap shot is needed....
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/31/1309:13 AM
Originally Posted By: ePap
The carat view is not from original sa 8.Look like firing at night.The cross hair is different.May be an upgrade. The target is not an helicopter because in this range (estimation from missile flight time is less than 6 km) should be seen clearly. For me looks like training activity ...
The elevation angle of TTR is at least 60 deg (the missile is pop up from the screen well below). The estimated range is ~6 km (from flight time ). The target is head on (from the trace of the flight path). From all the above there is no chance to see it in PPI (very close and very high).
Also a have doubts if there is a valid lock (no indications in video for that and target not centered to crosshair).
Most probably the target is locked well out of this range ,at least from 15 km and tracked and fired at 7-6 km.
All the above drives my to say that this video is from training firing activity (target drone ) Also it is strange that 4 missiles are loaded (seems training activity) .
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/31/1309:28 AM
i told u guys
this video notice is lie ! they fired on one drone but they wrote that we shot down a helicopter
Ps: this information that wrote under the link of video by siryan rebels channel is a kind of Psychological warfare something fired on KARAT and boom !!!! and wrote that we shot down the chopper ? so what the hell
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/31/1302:07 PM
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Mdore
Though ePap, the display says "WFOV" in some parts of the video. That probably stands for WIDE Field Of View. So not maximum zoom.
If so, it could be a helicopter.... There is a moment when they put some brightness and it appears a black silhouette on the screen.... We could try to calculate the size of the target, just a nice snap shot is needed....
I checked the video frame-by-frame, but not seen the target. If you can provide the screenshot, I can calculate its size.
Re: OSA work in progress update... - 07/31/1304:49 PM
You should own it, and be a member already...
Though site membership is free and non-conditional on using the software, though it is IMO the best armour and combined arms simulation available. Arma does infantry centric, small scale actions better, but sucks with vehicles.
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 07/31/1306:12 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Update No 2.
The elevation angle of TTR is at least 60 deg (the missile is pop up from the screen well below). The estimated range is ~6 km (from flight time ). The target is head on (from the trace of the flight path). From all the above there is no chance to see it in PPI (very close and very high).
It should be at > 5 km altitude (if slant range is ~ 6 km and elevation > 60 degrees)....
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/01/1304:32 AM
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: ePap
Update No 2.
The elevation angle of TTR is at least 60 deg (the missile is pop up from the screen well below). The estimated range is ~6 km (from flight time ). The target is head on (from the trace of the flight path). From all the above there is no chance to see it in PPI (very close and very high).
It should be at > 5 km altitude (if slant range is ~ 6 km and elevation > 60 degrees)....
OK.Let say 45 deg. Well above the ~ 32 deg of TAR search zones and the 28 deg of lift off angle.So no PPI target ,anyway...
PS: I can assure you that OSA missiles can reach 6 km height...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/21/1304:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
More SA-8 use in Syria.
Looks like their camera has gone out of alignment :\
I am not convinced that this particular OSA fired .
There is no lock indication . The carat/camera is trembling (besides the ...cameraman) .
Most probably an adjacent system very close fired (searching radar of ,not to jam the firing unit) and the missile is coming from the right as is the target is maneuvering but the illuminating target is almost steady .
Still don't understand ,if this is the scenario,why not the test target in the middle of crosshair .
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/21/1306:52 PM
Originally Posted By: piston79
Is it possible that camera is damaged and not calibrated with TTR axis? ePap?
Yes it is possible,but for sure this OSA is not the firing OSA.
For me is more probable the antena is in fix position waiting for firing results .
Strange for me is the camera oscillation but also the position of the target. I saw another video with the target in the same position ,out of the center of carat. May be the same OSA !
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/21/1307:19 PM
I do not know the SA-8, but...
1. The sound of launching.... If it is another SA-8, it should be "cheek-to-cheek" with this one.... 2. The camera is in NFOV (narrow field of view) and the target is in 270-360 degrees quadrant of the screen (away of the crosshair), I believe on the previous video, the target was there too, but closer (WFOV)....
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/21/1307:39 PM
Originally Posted By: piston79
I do not know the SA-8, but...
1. The sound of launching.... If it is another SA-8, it should be "cheek-to-cheek" with this one.... 2. The camera is in NFOV (narrow field of view) and the target is in 270-360 degrees quadrant of the screen (away of the crosshair), I believe on the previous video, the target was there too, but closer (WFOV)....
1. Yes.cheek to cheek,that's why TAR is not radiating (PPI sweep is steady) in order not to interfere/jam the firing one,I guess... 2. You are right.
Strange also why the operator switch off the camera just after firing.It's not normal ...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/22/1305:59 AM
Farokh, I don't know much about the Roland missile system. The information I looked up seems to show the Roland is slower and has shorter range than the Osa.
The Roland seems to be more similar to the Tunguska, minus the guns. Both the Roland and Tunguska have 8km range, both fly at about mach 1.6, and both use "command to line-of-sight guidance"
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/22/1310:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
Farokh, I don't know much about the Roland missile system. The information I looked up seems to show the Roland is slower and has shorter range than the Osa.
The Roland seems to be more similar to the Tunguska, minus the guns. Both the Roland and Tunguska have 8km range, both fly at about mach 1.6, and both use "command to line-of-sight guidance"
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/22/1301:56 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Quiz
Why 1 OSA AK = ~ 4 ROLANDs ?
Question especially to Farouk who asked .
this is hard question... because i dont know nothing anout roland but...
OSA missile speed is aprox 2.5 mach and roland missile speed around 1.5 ! this is big point ! and maybe osa target calculator parameters is so faster than roland.. and the other side ... OSA SOC have longest detect range than roland at the end ... OSA armed with 6 missiles silo and roland i think that maximum overload is 4 missiles as mdore@ wrote : these 2 using one method ! CLOS !
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/22/1302:03 PM
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: ePap
Quiz
Why 1 OSA AK = ~ 4 ROLANDs ?
Question especially to Farouk who asked .
this is hard question... because i dont know nothing anout roland but...
OSA missile speed is aprox 2.5 mach and roland missile speed around 1.5 ! this is big point ! and maybe osa target calculator parameters is so faster than roland.. and the other side ... OSA SOC have longest detect range than roland at the end ... OSA armed with 6 missiles silo and roland i think that maximum overload is 4 missiles as mdore@ wrote : these 2 using one method ! CLOS !
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/22/1304:09 PM
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: ePap
Quiz
Why 1 OSA AK = ~ 4 ROLANDs ?
Question especially to Farouk who asked .
this is hard question... because i dont know nothing anout roland but...
OSA missile speed is aprox 2.5 mach and roland missile speed around 1.5 ! this is big point ! and maybe osa target calculator parameters is so faster than roland.. and the other side ... OSA SOC have longest detect range than roland at the end ... OSA armed with 6 missiles silo and roland i think that maximum overload is 4 missiles as mdore@ wrote : these 2 using one method ! CLOS !
It is not so complex.
Just maths.You have the range of both systems.
Well,why 1 OSA =~4 ROLANDs ?
I think your implication is that the range is 2x, and area 4x... but I'm not sure that ADA works quite like that... I'd assume more of a barrier than an areal coverage... so the effectiveness would be only a little better than 2x. For a point defense ~ it may even be less significant than that if the attacking aircraft can be engaged successfully before they reach weapon release point, and there is no difference against stand-off weapons that can be launched from outside the coverage of the larger system which are aimed at the 'protected' main target...
Re: OSA work in progress screenshots... - 08/22/1304:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Lieste
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: ePap
Quiz
Why 1 OSA AK = ~ 4 ROLANDs ?
Question especially to Farouk who asked .
this is hard question... because i dont know nothing anout roland but...
OSA missile speed is aprox 2.5 mach and roland missile speed around 1.5 ! this is big point ! and maybe osa target calculator parameters is so faster than roland.. and the other side ... OSA SOC have longest detect range than roland at the end ... OSA armed with 6 missiles silo and roland i think that maximum overload is 4 missiles as mdore@ wrote : these 2 using one method ! CLOS !
It is not so complex.
Just maths.You have the range of both systems.
Well,why 1 OSA =~4 ROLANDs ?
I think your implication is that the range is 2x, and area 4x... but I'm not sure that ADA works quite like that... I'd assume more of a barrier than an areal coverage... so the effectiveness would be only a little better than 2x. For a point defense ~ it may even be less significant than that if the attacking aircraft can be engaged successfully before they reach weapon release point, and there is no difference against stand-off weapons that can be launched from outside the coverage of the larger system which are aimed at the 'protected' main target...
It is not my implication.Is how ADA systems work in space of 3d or the calculation in the power of 3 in order to find the volume of area that protect .
Compare the range of OSA/Roland 6,3/10,3
The above is the main (but not the only) factor that presents the relative fire power of an ADA system.
PS (QUIZ) : how much time an OSA AK can be in full operation mode with it's owne fuel ?
If Osa has full tank (250km range with 70L/100km consumtion on road, with 2h stationary transmit on mode) = ~ 200 - 250 liters of fuel.
Then 9I120 gas turbine produces 50kw power and consumes 67kg/h of fuel when on move or stationary. = 3-3.5h or 35kW and 20kg/h of fuel when stationary (using main diesel engine and generator as c-75). = 24h
PS (QUIZ) : how much time an OSA AK can be in full operation mode with it's owne fuel ?
If Osa has full tank (250km range with 70L/100km consumtion on road, with 2h stationary transmit on mode) = ~ 200 - 250 liters of fuel.
Then 9I120 gas turbine produces 50kw power and consumes 67kg/h of fuel when on move or stationary. = 3-3.5h or 35kW and 20kg/h of fuel when stationary (using main diesel engine and generator as c-75). = 24h
Have i won?
Fuel tank capacity ~300 lt
Consumption when use GTO (turbine) is ~75 lt/h (stationary) and 100 lt/h (on the move). Consumption when use GOM (main engine) is ~25 lt/h.(only on stationary position).
Half of the 300 lt are always remain for use for the move of the vehicle.
So when the fuel Gage shows half,you request refueling .
So,yes you won as good manual reader.
But as an operator you fail because you do not manage spare fuel for the movement of your vehicle ...
PS: What is the attached photo? I guess a power converter ?
hi to all and congrats for sa-8 sim .im also a sa-8 user we have them in my country in full usage. the diesel engine burns diesel-petrol and i can assure you it burns any type.the jet generator burns diesel also but its a jet power generator in need can burn anything 330 +,- 10 liters and the jet consumes 69 liters per hour.also there is another option for power.you can connect a generator to the vehicle gearbox and produce power.the system needs 218-230 and 400hz.the power sources are ΓΟΜ-ΓΤΑ AND THE ABOVE GENBERATOR IS NOT SA-8 .
hi to all and congrats for sa-8 sim .im also a sa-8 user we have them in my country in full usage. the diesel engine burns diesel-petrol and i can assure you it burns any type.the jet generator burns diesel also but its a jet power generator in need can burn anything 330 +,- 10 liters and the jet consumes 69 liters per hour.also there is another option for power.you can connect a generator to the vehicle gearbox and produce power.the system needs 218-230 and 400hz.the power sources are ΓΟΜ-ΓΤΑ AND THE ABOVE GENBERATOR IS NOT SA-8 .
Welcome my friend.
You are quiet right to your answers. You are Samsim user of OSA or a real one ?
Ps: OSA burns all kind of fuels,even orange juice ...
IM NOT SAMSIM USER i cant tell you more.as far for food during war time scenario theres no eating sleeping the osa crews must work hard in order not to get seen by enemy.if theres time you can sleep and eat everywhere even inside vehicle.
Ps: OSA burns all kind of fuels,even orange juice ...
Great way for commander to demotivate / punish soldiers for mistakes; by taking away dinner juice and pouring into tank.
Btw, how are eating time organised in wartime scenario? UAZ arrives with cans and handles food inside OSA?
You can also prepare your food,just aim the tracking radar towards the food cans and as a microwave oven , in 5 min, you have your meal well cooked with so much radiation energy ...
Eating schedule as follows (in local time) Breakfast 08:00 Launch 13:00 Dinner 20:00
Ps: OSA burns all kind of fuels,even orange juice ...
Great way for commander to demotivate / punish soldiers for mistakes; by taking away dinner juice and pouring into tank.
Btw, how are eating time organised in wartime scenario? UAZ arrives with cans and handles food inside OSA?
You can also prepare your food,just aim the tracking radar towards the food cans and as a microwave oven , in 5 min, you have your meal well cooked with so much radiation energy ...
Eating schedule as follows (in local time) Breakfast 08:00 Launch 13:00 Dinner 20:00
With the M1 Abrams the crew jams an ammo can in the rear grill. 2 mins @ 800 Deg C = tasty.
in this video you will see the firing exercise against a low alt drone as i guess! but here the question ! why OSA flying like semi-active missiles on air ? OSA flying top of target head and the last moment she dive on the target ! what the hell is this guys ? is it GORKA ?
in this video you will see the firing exercise against a low alt drone as i guess! but here the question ! why OSA flying like semi-active missiles on air ? OSA flying top of target head and the last moment she dive on the target ! what the hell is this guys ? is it GORKA ?
First, this is not OSA AK but the upgraded OSA 1T.(new digital computer ) Second,obviously we don't know the flight path of the target drone . Third,how the hell you can recognize that this missile trajectory looks like as a semi- active one ?There is a way to be identified ,if you don't know the system which fired it?
Third,how the hell you can recognize that this missile trajectory looks like as a semi- active one ?There is a way to be identified ,if you don't know the system which fired it?
i saw semi-active missile trajectory on youtube from different sarh system lik c-200 / hawk / KUB but sa-8 trajectory is so different ! i never saw that on missile going upper alt and then dive to the targets head ... usually diving to the targets head at the terminam phase used for semi-active just !
maybe im wrong ! but target flying on very very low alt!
Third,how the hell you can recognize that this missile trajectory looks like as a semi- active one ?There is a way to be identified ,if you don't know the system which fired it?
i saw semi-active missile trajectory on youtube from different sarh system lik c-200 / hawk / KUB but sa-8 trajectory is so different ! i never saw that on missile going upper alt and then dive to the targets head ... usually diving to the targets head target at terminam phase used for semi-active just !
maybe i wrong !
That's why I wrote about the unknown flight path of target drone . Obviously it was higher and dive to lower altitude . Semi active missiles do not dive at terminal phase .Who told you that?
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 12/14/1307:35 AM
Quiz.
We are at NAMFI firing range for OSA AK firings. The target drone flights with 300km/h at a high of 27 m Above Sea Level,and at 6.4 km range. Can be hit? and why ?
We are at NAMFI firing range for OSA AK firings. The target drone flights with 300km/h at a high of 27 m Above Sea Level,and at 6.4 km range. Can be hit? and why ?
Well... The tricky issue is the altitude of NAMFI firing range which is ~300m ASL. So, only manually the target can be tracked (Fi mode).
Im writing the historical section of the OSA manual. Can you please check and correct the text below...
Thanks Hpasp
Fielding of the 9K33M2 OSA-AK As fielding was severally delayed, most of the WarPact countries fielded the more expensive 2K12 KUB instead of the OSA-AK. According to the original plan of 59’s, for each KUB regiment, 3 OSA regiment was planned…
They are shooting ? Yes. Do they expect some result ? With this manual tracking quality : no But still scary for the helicopter crew ...
In the first video they are tracking a plane, which is going to land... It looks like the plane is below 100 meters and descending... What method they used? They cannot measure the range, thus no Fi, right?
They are shooting ? Yes. Do they expect some result ? With this manual tracking quality : no But still scary for the helicopter crew ...
In the first video they are tracking a plane, which is going to land... It looks like the plane is below 100 meters and descending... What method they used? They cannot measure the range, thus no Fi, right?
They are not tracking.They try to follow the target unsuccessfully !
Normally and if the target is low and manually tracked and range less that 7 km ,the system recognize to be be in Fi mode. No need for precise range.
They are shooting ? Yes. Do they expect some result ? With this manual tracking quality : no But still scary for the helicopter crew ...
In the first video they are tracking a plane, which is going to land... It looks like the plane is below 100 meters and descending... What method they used? They cannot measure the range, thus no Fi, right?
DID THEY REALLY USING TV ONLY?
I think their crosshair is pretty off target in first videos....? On the 16.01.2014 one the operator pointed at elevation indicator...?
They are not tracking.They try to follow the target unsuccessfully !
Normally and if the target is low and manually tracked and range less that 7 km ,the system recognize to be be in Fi mode. No need for precise range.
But how the missile knew when to descent over target if no range data?
In this case the missile flies in a predefined path just 3 meters higher from the crosshair of carat and with the proximity fuse already energized,it is expected the target to be hit by the warhead fragments .
They are shooting ? Yes. Do they expect some result ? With this manual tracking quality : no But still scary for the helicopter crew ...
In the first video they are tracking a plane, which is going to land... It looks like the plane is below 100 meters and descending... What method they used? They cannot measure the range, thus no Fi, right?
DID THEY REALLY USING TV ONLY?
I think their crosshair is pretty off target in first videos....? On the 16.01.2014 one the operator pointed at elevation indicator...?
In my opinion the video on 16.01.2014 is from training activities and the target is tracked by the tracking radar and that's why there is target blip on elevation screen.Carat just verifies the results.
In the other video ,firing over buildings (war activity ) there is no tracking radar locked and applicable what I wrote in my previous message.
If you have time, it is worthy to look careful all videos, and say what is going on (or not) for everyone of them.... Does they really used radar lock on any of them?
EDIT: The cargo plane shooting - missile flew for 26 seconds...
If you have time, it is worthy to look careful all videos, and say what is going on (or not) for everyone of them.... Does they really used radar lock on any of them?
EDIT: The cargo plane shooting - missile flew for 26 seconds...
In videos with hit , they use the lock on target with tracking radar. The night vision is out of alingmnet.I don't know why. In war condition video they try to follow with the night camera their target but incorrectly and because of the misalignment there is no chance for a hit. In that case there is no radar lock.May be in order to surprise the target (no chaff release) or radar failure .Or to force the system to go in Fi mode,which I have doubts ....
In videos with hit , they use the lock on target with tracking radar.
Videos with missile detonation are more than one....
I refered clearly for hits verified in the night camera. The detonation and the hellicopter I don't know what happen . Most probably the pilot was very very lucky but I am not convinced that is an OSA missile .It seems to me slower and not rolling.From the other side the detonation of warhead look like OSA .
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 01/20/1406:07 AM
They've videos from rebels, who might not be fully trained, or might not be trained at all. Using a vehicle which they probably don't have spare parts for, or repairs.
It's to be expected that the system isn't being used very effectively.
Hpasp ,,, could we track osa missiles movements on SOC scope or only way to tracking osa missiles is in the range finder?
Yes, that's a good question... ePap, Hpasp?
Let's clarify first terminology.
When we refer to " track" we mean that we follow a target electronically and automatically . Right? If so the following is the answer to farokh and piston79. In real world the missile in flight is not seen in SOC scope. In the range finder scope we can see the electronic response of the missile and which is automatically tracked,that means the system tracks the range of the missile and not the missile it self.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) work in progress... - 03/19/1408:08 PM
How long does it take to launch a missile? I mean from the moment ПУСК button is pressed until missile leaves the container? Just wondering...
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) work in progress... - 03/20/1406:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Vympel
How long does it take to launch a missile? I mean from the moment ПУСК button is pressed until missile leaves the container? Just wondering...
ou know - my friend take a part on VictorStrike2000 and 2001 in Drawsko Pomorskie trening center in Poland.
During this trening fight (whit using MILES system) american regiment Ah-64A + OH-58 Kiowa where coopereting whit MLRS battery. The target was polish air defence using non-downgraded SA-8M Gecko (now Sting" SA-8P Sting ADMS Air Defence Missile System) And what? And US fools lose whole AH-64 regiment during polish AA ambush. And thanks to not using radars in long mode (only short for directing) and very quick change of position Sa-8 lost only 2 complex for MLRS battery fire. Quite low when we consider the fact that US army "lost" in this MILES battle more then 30 Ah-64...
In next year "battle" where repeated - This time with ridiculous restrictions for Sa-8Gecko battery (fire range limited to max 2km, no using radars, 2times shorter time for MLRS battery countrfire) and what? ~4-6 Sa-8 lost and... 16 Ah-64 "killed" in this MILES battle.
And in both cases Ah-64 regiment whit MLRS COOPERATION was not able to destroy the target (mechanizated batalion). The Sa-8P not guilty Ah-64 regiment near target area. The Ah-64 was not able to using weapons because there was not able event to approach near target.
The key was using terrein for ambush and using non advanced posoration system (ex: microwave on jeep, or a small motor connected to the radio station). This, and well-trained Sa-8 crews was enought to "destroy" Ah-64 regiment during first battle, and stop during second. In both cases the target was not destroyed becouse Ah-64 regiment was not able to attack near target area.
And old Sa-8 is not Tor... It's not only example when even polish slighty downgraded WarPac AA was better then US army image...An there was more suprises - ex the same time to "Fire task" fo MLRS battery and... polish BM-21 GRAD battery (using Topaz system).
to:
Click to reveal..
Before the AH-64D entered service the US Army flew test missions against high threat ground threats (this was 1996). Eight AH-64A and six AH-64D took part in the trials.
Ground threat was 20 M1A1, 20 M2, six 2S6, two SA-8B, one SA-11, three SA-13, one SA-15, 10 SA-18 and Swedish Giraffe radar. They also used smoke, RF/IR blankets, conformal RAM camouflage netting, decoys, corner reflectors and active jammers.
The Apaches did not use the standard SEAD or artillery support (the test was to compare the two models). They flew the seven close attack and five deep attack times at night only.
AH-64A scored 75 kills and lost 28 aircraft. They also made 34 blue on blues. (friendly fire). AH-64D scored 300 kills and lost 4 aircraft. No blue on blues.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/29/1410:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
More realistic night time?
Very valid comment!
When I started SAMSIM, I had to decide...
In real life, all operator stations are more darker, than it is displayed in SAMSIM.
... but SAMSIM is for civilian enthusiasts, where I would like to give the possibility to read (at least) the RUSSIAN labels, when they are learning to operate a system.
So SAMSIM panels are too bright for realtime operation...
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/29/1410:16 AM
So why not prepare both versions (beginner or realistic) and switch them at startup with a checkbox (like a possibility of nuclear warhead or non-historical scenarios)?
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/29/1410:20 AM
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
So why not prepare both versions (beginner or realistic) and switch them at startup with a checkbox (like a possibility of nuclear warhead or non-historical scenarios)?
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/29/1410:32 AM
But very appreciated work :-) Double is not the right word, photos can be used only as templates, positions of buttons are the same and so the indicators....
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/29/1411:08 AM
There is always a push from the minority of expert users to add more realism, while the newcomers are keep suffering reading the Russian labels.... ... I need to find a nice balance of realism vs playability vs development effort.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/29/1411:14 AM
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
There is always a push from the minority of expert users to add more realism, while the newcomers are keep suffering reading the Russian labels.... ... I need to find a nice balance of realism vs playability vs development effort.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/29/1411:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Mdore
More realistic night time?
I like it very much .But : 1. Azimuth dial numbers are visible now but the range rings and sweep are too bright (in 10 minutes you will get a headache). 2. Also rotational dial with parameter lines are missing/not seen .
With 4 Gb if it is if everything would be in 3D and everywhere you can rotate his head Yes and type missile launch as a movie, then yes of course a minimum of 4 Gb.
If everything is in 3D, it would be like in the movie, then of course you need a lot of memory.
4GB is not much. My old system had that, and the current is 16GB. I'm not wealthy, have a 'poverty line' income, but still can afford occasional luxury items - by planning ahead and saving small increments.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/30/1408:46 AM
Guys, I think 4GB is not a problem today. Even my almost three years old notebook has i5 with 4GB (in basic configuration). On the other side, it's resolution is 1600x900 only, so for SAMSIM external monitor is needed.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 04/30/1411:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Guys, I think 4GB is not a problem today. Even my almost three years old notebook has i5 with 4GB (in basic configuration). On the other side, it's resolution is 1600x900 only, so for SAMSIM external monitor is needed.
im fully agree with your opinion ! but hpasp should telling us several month ago ... not now i spent all of my money ... if i knew it.. i buy one 2gb another ram for my self
00:03:51, Missile exploded on Channel-1 Practice target LA-17M [program-1] simulating A-4 Skyhawk killed by SAM. (miss distance: 2m)
00:03:55, Missile exploded on Channel-2 Practice target LA-17M [program-1] simulating A-4 Skyhawk killed by SAM. (miss distance: 3m)
Total, SNR On Air Time: 4min 3sec
ps: but i have a question dear hpasp... at compare with other systems like sa-2E and sa-5B why this system is so easy for me ? i cant belive it ... with one click i can lock on target ! why this system is so easy to work ?
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/01/1408:21 AM
Nice work Hpasp!!!
I'm really impressed with the radar display. Much smoother and more realistic than before. The system seems easy to use, though I've only shot down parachute targets so far. Things might be more difficult under actual combat. But I want to master the system in peace time before I fire at targets that fire back!
Also the game takes a lot less than 4GB on my system. Maybe that's because I've only done practice missions, I'm not sure.
Edit: Okay, I've played about with it for a while now. It's pretty easy to get kills in practice, but in war, it is really difficult.
By the way, is it possible to track a jamming target with radar only? Or do you have to use the camera?
00:03:51, Missile exploded on Channel-1 Practice target LA-17M [program-1] simulating A-4 Skyhawk killed by SAM. (miss distance: 2m)
00:03:55, Missile exploded on Channel-2 Practice target LA-17M [program-1] simulating A-4 Skyhawk killed by SAM. (miss distance: 3m)
Total, SNR On Air Time: 4min 3sec
ps: but i have a question dear hpasp... at compare with other systems like sa-2E and sa-5B why this system is so easy for me ? i cant belive it ... with one click i can lock on target ! why this system is so easy to work ?
Is Soviet Advanced Technology Comrade! Soviets have learned meaning of "Ergonomics" is glorious advance!
Observe Advance of T-72 compared to T-62! Laser Range finder! Ballistic Computer! AND Auto-loader!
in ashuluk site ... the helicopter do not explode at all !!! when i send several missiles to it helicopter do not explode
You need to use METHOD-FI against helos...
well... as dear hpasp and dear epep told me about choosing the OSA missiles gudance methods ... i remember both of you said... OSA target calculator choose automaticaly methods by it self !
so why i should to set method-F1 manualy ? where is the switch and button to changing the methods ?
in ashuluk site ... the helicopter do not explode at all !!! when i send several missiles to it helicopter do not explode
You need to use METHOD-FI against helos...
well... as dear hpasp and dear epep told me about choosing the OSA missiles gudance methods ... i remember both of you said... OSA target calculator choose automaticaly methods by it self !
so why i should to set method-F1 manualy ? where is the switch and button to changing the methods ?
This special switch will be shown on lesson 23. Now we are at lesson 1 !
00:08:50, Missile exploded on Channel-1 A-4E Ahit number 1 of flight-2 attacking 10th Battery of the 5th Air Defense Missile Brigade killed by SAM. (miss distance: 6m)
00:09:17, Missile exploded on Channel-2 A-4E Ahit number 2 of flight-2 attacking 10th Battery of the 5th Air Defense Missile Brigade killed by SAM. (miss distance: 5m)
00:08:50, Missile exploded on Channel-1 A-4E Ahit number 1 of flight-2 attacking 10th Battery of the 5th Air Defense Missile Brigade killed by SAM. (miss distance: 6m)
00:09:17, Missile exploded on Channel-2 A-4E Ahit number 2 of flight-2 attacking 10th Battery of the 5th Air Defense Missile Brigade killed by SAM. (miss distance: 5m)
00:03:51, Missile exploded on Channel-1 Practice target LA-17M [program-1] simulating A-4 Skyhawk killed by SAM. (miss distance: 2m)
00:03:55, Missile exploded on Channel-2 Practice target LA-17M [program-1] simulating A-4 Skyhawk killed by SAM. (miss distance: 3m)
Total, SNR On Air Time: 4min 3sec
ps: but i have a question dear hpasp... at compare with other systems like sa-2E and sa-5B why this system is so easy for me ? i cant belive it ... with one click i can lock on target ! why this system is so easy to work ?
Basically the OSA is the pinnacle of the analogue (using mechanically steered antennas) Cold War SAM system development... ... all systems after it (SA-10/11/12 ...) had digital phase modulated radar arrays and computers.
PS: with the Patriot, you never acquire/track a target, it is done completely automatically... ... you just arrange the targets into the TBEQ (Targets To Be Engaged Queue). Launcher - missile - guidance method - radio proxy fuse settings, and actual launch command is completely automatic. Instead of fighting a battle, you are just managing it...
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/02/1408:10 AM
all right Epap... lets just finish this funny subject continue to dodging in private msg please
any way
one strange question guys ... what do you thinking that why soviet design (tor) for itself and other friendly nations ? as i know... OSA-AKM has got a digital calculator for itself... so as we read the OSA manual pdf ... i can engage with 0 altitude... so this is great .. but why they design some thing like tor again ?
It is a pity that S-300 to make it worth while in service.
But what system is planned in the Simulator here is interesting, perhaps you can't take THOR in service, I do not know probably complex and which can still be interesting.
What Hpasp did with Greece that was good I did not expect to like this you could shoot if everywhere so it would be on all systems is very good I like it, thank you!
As I understand the priority of such Systems as possible.
About Patriot Systems it is not ours, and American, and here are all of our System, whether it is worth doing, it's also how S-300 in service with another.
Thanks for the credits,but Farokh deserves a try ...
No, this is too important to be left in a hands of a civilian....
When Hpasp will give us the capability to create complex scenarios based on real tactics and maltypleyer then it will worth to go deeper. Now basic handling is fair enough I think but I am here to help if needed .
Some remarks : try to lock the target at such a range in order to get the benefits of the range of the system (tracking and missile range) The 15km screen is for slow targets like HELOs and not with fast targets.If you do not aquier a lock earlier and the target change altitude most probably it will over run you. So I propose a lock between 16-18km and fire 2 missiles.
i trying to lock on target between 18 and 20 km... i did it but... i dont know why missile ready light illuminate do not be ON til 9KM ... why ? but some time the system give access to engage from 14km ! this one is realy strange for me
ready light illuminate some times Be ON in differents range ! with same target !!!!
i trying to lock on target between 18 and 20 km... i did it but... i dont know why missile ready light illuminate do not be ON til 9KM ... why ? but some time the system give access to engage from 14km ! this one is realy strange for me
ready light illuminate some times Be ON in differents range ! with same target !!!!
It is not strange at all.The heading of the target is the important factor in such cases. In head on targets (1000-1200km/h) you expect ready to fire at14-16km. The sim works perfect.Hpasp made great job,believe me.
PS: all of 3 videos include with sound and they are not silence also please one kind guy .... download them and upload them to youtube and drope youtube links in here ....
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/04/1408:57 AM
Hello. I have some questions about new version. At first, Thank You for Your work. It's great simulator and I hope, what You will continue Your development, and I hope You will add another screen Resolutions. How target can be hited by OSA if it's not Daytime or maybe fog and target jams Radar ?
OSA has 3 target tracking methods. 1, via SSC (target should be above 00-10 Imperial Russian military degrees) 2, via SSC in range, and Karat in angles 3, via Karat in angles only. (target range is guestimated using the crosshair)
If you have bad visibility, you are left with option one only. Jamming target is usually not a problem, as 9M33M2 can pull 25g during T/T guidance, and the SSC is a monopulse design.
Jamming might not be a problem in real life, but it is in SAM Sim, because there's no way to track a jamming target at night.
Tracking of a noise jamming target in angle with a monopulse design (SSC) is more than easy. Due to design, angle tracking errors are reduced by "x" magnitudes, compared to non jamming targets.
Arming the missile radio proxy fuse after launch, is a manual choice of the Firing Officer.
As the 9M33M2 can pull 25g during T/T guided flight, so target has to "do magic" to avoid hit.
Jamming might not be a problem in real life, but it is in SAM Sim, because there's no way to track a jamming target at night.
Tracking of a noise jamming target in angle with a monopulse design (SSC) is more than easy. Due to design, angle tracking errors are reduced by "x" magnitudes, compared to non jamming targets.
Arming the missile radio proxy fuse after launch, is a manual choice of the Firing Officer.
As the 9M33M2 can pull 25g during T/T guided flight, so target has to "do magic" to avoid hit.
as i remember sa-4 SCC has got a switch with green lamp to engage with jammer target but OSA doesnt have any thing like this !
i check all of button an switch around SCC pannel but they doesnt work at all ...
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/05/1406:10 AM
dear hpasp... one question ! why our OSA-AK doesnt have infera red camera ??? at the nights ... we cant use TOV because we cant see anything in air at night
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/05/1409:14 AM
Originally Posted By: jazjar
So is the karat capable of doing image-recognition tracking, or must the target be tracked manually referring to case #3?
Only manually.
In Samsim it is a compromised situation (yet...) In stead of semi tracking (or aid tracking,so called PA mode) which actually is a manual tracking of target in real ,in Samsim we have TOB(day camera) auto tracking . The manual tracking in Samsim is fulfilled with PY (RU) manual tracking (in real this is used only to rotate tarret in aziuth and not to follow a target !).
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/08/1410:17 AM
Originally Posted By: farokh
fellas ... i have one question !!! why in osa-ak and after that .... designer used container for hanging up missiles ??? why container ?
what happened will be done without container ?
Extremely good question Faroukh!
You're proven fan and professional OSA master!
In fact not many simmers here appreciate hardware design from outside of SAM's...
Note, that containers are square-sided, this is because their main purpose is to prevent missiles from rolling on sloped surfaces during reload (because you knew that OSA missile has rotating fins, you,little clever guy! ).
So, squared containers are really important to prevent some injuries and explosions...
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/08/1411:10 AM
Originally Posted By: farokh
fellas ... i have one question !!! why in osa-ak and after that .... designer used container for hanging up missiles ??? why container ?
what happened will be done without container ?
1. Safety,handling and protection reasons,obviously . 2. In order to load 3 missiles (containerized) in stead of two ( w/o container)! Read the manual carefully ... 3. In order not to know what kind of missile is inside ...
fellas ... i have one question !!! why in osa-ak and after that .... designer used container for hanging up missiles ??? why container ?
what happened will be done without container ?
Extremely good question Faroukh!
You're proven fan and professional OSA master!
In fact not many simmers here appreciate hardware design from outside of SAM's...
Note, that containers are square-sided, this is because their main purpose is to prevent missiles from rolling on sloped surfaces during reload (because you knew that OSA missile has rotating fins, you,little clever guy! ).
So, squared containers are really important to prevent some injuries and explosions...
this is you kindness my friend ;)but as u know even better than me... im not a clever guy .... if i was... i must went to iran defense organization im just a poor sam lover without any real Experience
I think you are right even I tried to put some salt and pepper in No3 answer . ..
That's because the victim developed some resistance.... Bigger dose is needed...
...but something tells me not to... Farouk ...
epap epap epap you were a best teacher for me ... you learned to me,lot of information about the osa I'm really jealous to your students ... in my eyes.. you are the one of the Patient teacher in air defense arena i hope we can meet each other some days .... near the one OSA ... and take several pictures for Memento
I think you are right even I tried to put some salt and pepper in No3 answer . ..
That's because the victim developed some resistance.... Bigger dose is needed...
...but something tells me not to... Farouk ...
epap epap epap you were a best teacher for me ... you learned to me,lot of information about the osa I'm really jealous to your students ... in my eyes.. you are the one of the Patient teacher in air defense arena i hope we can meet each other some days .... near the one OSA ... and take several pictures for Memento
of course FT. piston79
Ok.ok,now back in class...
Farouk,tell me. You see an OSA canister .What could be inside to it ? (it's not a joke ...)
I think you are right even I tried to put some salt and pepper in No3 answer . ..
That's because the victim developed some resistance.... Bigger dose is needed...
...but something tells me not to... Farouk ...
epap epap epap you were a best teacher for me ... you learned to me,lot of information about the osa I'm really jealous to your students ... in my eyes.. you are the one of the Patient teacher in air defense arena i hope we can meet each other some days .... near the one OSA ... and take several pictures for Memento
of course FT. piston79
Ok.ok,now back in class...
Farouk,tell me. You see an OSA canister .What could be inside to it ? (it's not a joke ...)
Farouk,if no reply in next 5 min ,you go to manpad class ... PS: you are looking for 3 items ...
Any other opinion is much welcomed...
Well,time is up...
So inside an OSA canister could be : 1. A dummy missile 2. A training missile or 3. An arial drone Saman M missile...
Farouk,what is the difference between a dummy and a training missile ?
i think ... saman missile usualy used for high tactical sam systems lke TOR for example... OSA launching a saman missile for TOR ! and TOR can kill him on air !
but about dummy missiles... i think they are real missiles without any warhead
Farouk,if no reply in next 5 min ,you go to manpad class ... PS: you are looking for 3 items ...
Any other opinion is much welcomed...
Well,time is up...
So inside an OSA canister could be : 1. A dummy missile 2. A training missile or 3. An arial drone Saman M missile...
Farouk,what is the difference between a dummy and a training missile ?
i think ... saman missile usualy used for high tactical sam systems lke TOR for example... OSA launching a saman missile for TOR ! and TOR can kill him on air !
but about dummy missiles... i think they are real missiles without any warhead
Why you wrote your story about saman and TOR ?It has something with the question what is inside the container ? Also your answer for the dummy missile is not correct .
...farokh stay focus or I will sent you in AAA as a gunner ...
Dummy is a simulcrum, a weighted box of the correct dimensions.
Training is a box with some features of the real weapon. Interface at least, possibly including flight systems.
This would be my usage of the terms... not sure if this exactly matches the one used in this case.
e.g. a dummy cartridge is an inert round, a blank is a training round - in the case of a conventional small arms cartridge this would be a wad and a small amount of powder. Other types of training round might include plastic or 'airsoft' type non-lethal ammunition natures for force on force training where increased realism is desired with low risk technologies (Miles etc is expensive and complex compared to this).
Farouk,if no reply in next 5 min ,you go to manpad class ... PS: you are looking for 3 items ...
Any other opinion is much welcomed...
Well,time is up...
So inside an OSA canister could be : 1. A dummy missile 2. A training missile or 3. An arial drone Saman M missile...
Farouk,what is the difference between a dummy and a training missile ?
i think ... saman missile usualy used for high tactical sam systems lke TOR for example... OSA launching a saman missile for TOR ! and TOR can kill him on air !
but about dummy missiles... i think they are real missiles without any warhead
sir.. you asked me about traning and dummy missile difference ! so i answer that
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/09/1404:10 AM
Originally Posted By: Lieste
Dummy is a simulcrum, a weighted box of the correct dimensions.
Training is a box with some features of the real weapon. Interface at least, possibly including flight systems.
This would be my usage of the terms... not sure if this exactly matches the one used in this case.
e.g. a dummy cartridge is an inert round, a blank is a training round - in the case of a conventional small arms cartridge this would be a wad and a small amount of powder. Other types of training round might include plastic or 'airsoft' type non-lethal ammunition natures for force on force training where increased realism is desired with low risk technologies (Miles etc is expensive and complex compared to this).
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/09/1404:38 AM
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: ePap
Farouk,if no reply in next 5 min ,you go to manpad class ... PS: you are looking for 3 items ...
Any other opinion is much welcomed...
Well,time is up...
So inside an OSA canister could be : 1. A dummy missile 2. A training missile or 3. An arial drone Saman M missile...
Farouk,what is the difference between a dummy and a training missile ?
i think ... saman missile usualy used for high tactical sam systems lke TOR for example... OSA launching a saman missile for TOR ! and TOR can kill him on air !
but about dummy missiles... i think they are real missiles without any warhead
sir.. you asked me about traning and dummy missile difference ! so i answer that
does sa8 use sidelobe blanking (a omnidirectionnal antenna)? when working with mti how many pulse does it send before it can change frequency? does it use intrapulse coding (frequency coded? phase coded?) what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?) a plane can inject early false target ( false target before the real plane) and late target?if( there is no random intrapulse modulation) the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)? if not it can be jammed with a jam that simulate a no newtonian object? does it has protection against doppler velocity gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?)
when enemy use noise jamming on both surveillance radar and tracking radar , is there a way to have range ? can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)? can the enemy jam the SVR ? can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna? can the enemy jam the Monopulse Medium beam Missile Guidance Radar ? what's the missile beacon power , i guess it use frequency hopping , does it use too the spread Spectrum?
when working without mti does it frequency hopping between each pulse? if it is the case(without mti) a plane can't inject early false target (no false target before the real plane) only late target? does it has protection against range gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?) does it have protection against blinking jamming ?(2 planes that jam one after other , useless i guess because the camera ?
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/19/1411:59 AM
Originally Posted By: Migow
hi hpasp i have many question about sa 8 akm
does sa8 use sidelobe blanking (a omnidirectionnal antenna)? when working with mti how many pulse does it send before it can change frequency? does it use intrapulse coding (frequency coded? phase coded?) what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?) a plane can inject early false target ( false target before the real plane) and late target?if( there is no random intrapulse modulation) the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)? if not it can be jammed with a jam that simulate a no newtonian object? does it has protection against doppler velocity gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?)
when enemy use noise jamming on both surveillance radar and tracking radar , is there a way to have range ? can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)? can the enemy jam the SVR ? can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna? can the enemy jam the Monopulse Medium beam Missile Guidance Radar ? what's the missile beacon power , i guess it use frequency hopping , does it use too the spread Spectrum?
when working without mti does it frequency hopping between each pulse? if it is the case(without mti) a plane can't inject early false target (no false target before the real plane) only late target? does it has protection against range gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?) does it have protection against blinking jamming ?(2 planes that jam one after other , useless i guess because the camera ?
does it use random prf against target injection?
what modulation the sa8 use?
thx for answer
Such a detailed questions from a newly registered one...
Several of these questions are actually outstretches the scope of a free simulator, so I cannot answer those. SAMSIM only simulates noise jamming, no other advanced jamming method is simulated. We are discussing OSA-AK version here, not the AKM. I will try to answer those that I can...
what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?) Manual page 25, its not altitude, but elevation angle
the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)? Helicopter rotor is always visible.
when enemy use noise jamming on both surveillance radar and tracking radar , is there a way to have range ? Through PU12. Manual page 19.
can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)? No, as it has a narrow perpendicular beam, so jamming it is usually too late.
can the enemy jam the SVR ? Usually no, the missile has a powerful beacon, and it is closer to the OSA than the target.
can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna? Why on earth would you jam a transmitting only system???
the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)? Helicopter rotor is always visible.
when working in doppler the system can only have lock on newtonian object (the object move forward or rearward not the two at the same time like a helicopter's rotor or jamming)
Quote:
Special consideration is required for aircraft with large moving parts because pulse-Doppler radar operates like a phase-locked loop. Blade tips moving near the speed of sound produce the only signal that can be detected when a helicopter is moving slow near terrain and weather.
Helicopters appears like a rapidly pulsing noise emitter except in a clear environment free from clutter. An audible signal is produced for passive identification of the type of airborne object. Microwave Doppler frequency shift produced by reflector motion falls into the audible sound range for human beings (20-20,000 Hz), which is used for target classification in addition to the kinds of conventional radar display used for that purpose, like A-Scope, B-Scope, C-Scope, and RHI indicator. The human ear may be able to tell the difference better than electronic equipment.
A special mode is required because the Doppler velocity feedback information must be unlinked from radial movement so that the system can transition from scan to track with no lock.
Similar techniques are required to develop track information for jamming signals and interference that cannot satisfy the lock criteria.
does it have those special mode to track helicopter , and to protect against jam that simulate (target with receding AND advancing movement at the same time to break track (jammer could break old sa6 missile track but not the improved))
Quote:
can the enemy jam the SVR ? Usually no, the missile has a powerful beacon, and it is closer to the OSA than the target.
the tunguska and tor move to missile tracking flare (IR)(because sa8 svr could be spoof or jam?) 2k22m(can be spoof by flare or dircm?) , and then IR pulsed beacon 2k22m1(there is a reason they move to infrared)
Quote:
can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna? Why on earth would you jam a transmitting only system???
can the enemy jam the receiver on the missile (the spk is only transmitting) so the missile can't receive k1k2k3 and the receiver is it directionnal antenna?( to protect from jamming)
Quote:
can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)? No, as it has a narrow perpendicular beam, so jamming it is usually too late.
the 2k22m tunguska move to 8 laser proximity fuse (to protect from jamming?) and then 2k22m1 move back to RF proximity fuse to intercept cruise missile.
Quote:
what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?) Manual page 25, its not altitude, but elevation angle
the sa8 use Pulse-Doppler signal processing (high sub-clutter visibility performance ,like tunguska ,require good hardware) ? or MTI with phase cancellation ( but low sub-clutter visibility performance( old device)) ( second most likely) if target fly near ground (how much?) the target can't be distinguished from ground because MTI can suppress only 25dB signal , the ground clutter is still higher than target(unlike pulse-doppler processing 45dB ,60 dB ...)you can't see the target (only with camera?), helicopter 's rotor rcs is low .
the question are about sa8 ak ( akm better )not the sim itself thx if you have documentation thx for answering
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/22/1408:23 AM
Originally Posted By: max2012
The question is about OSA-AK there in Greece have AN-64 Apache helicopter as a goal so that is can OSA shoot it down.
The idea of flight altitude 10 meters and documentation of said at least 25 meters, then it turns out the problem.
And why should the training made Stealth I do not understand how the OSA may shoot it down?
Click to reveal..
How to understand this, can someone explain why the Stealth and AN-64 Apache Helicopter at an altitude of 10 meters.
Generally you can set the target altitude as you want. I will correct Apache initial altitude to 25m (in 0.982.2). F-117A can be tracked with the Karat daytime.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 05/22/1411:00 AM
Originally Posted By: max2012
The question is about OSA-AK there in Greece have AN-64 Apache helicopter as a goal so that is can OSA shoot it down.
The idea of flight altitude 10 meters and documentation of said at least 25 meters, then it turns out the problem.
And why should the training made Stealth I do not understand how the OSA may shoot it down?
How to understand this, can someone explain why the Stealth and AN-64 Apache Helicopter at an altitude of 10 meters.
What do you mean stealth Apache ? Your (OSA AK) altitude is 260m and helo's alt 10m.If you you mean that you can not see it in PPI it's ok. I don't know if you mean you can not see it with CARAT.Is that so?
PS: we use AH-64A for training in GREECE and not to shoot them down ...
The question is about OSA-AK there in Greece have AN-64 Apache helicopter as a goal so that is can OSA shoot it down.
The idea of flight altitude 10 meters and documentation of said at least 25 meters, then it turns out the problem.
And why should the training made Stealth I do not understand how the OSA may shoot it down?
How to understand this, can someone explain why the Stealth and AN-64 Apache Helicopter at an altitude of 10 meters.
What do you mean stealth Apache ? Your (OSA AK) altitude is 260m and helo's alt 10m.If you you mean that you can not see it in PPI it's ok. I don't know if you mean you can not see it with CARAT.Is that so?
PS: we use AH-64A for training in GREECE and not to shoot them down ...
Update.
After short investigation for above issue I can say that Samsim works very well ,close to what expected to see in real ! I used the unit 96 Chios with alt 224m and target(AH-64A) alt 10m at 20km incoming . You can see it both in PPI and in CARAT as it should. Target lost in PPI around at 7 km range as it was expected !Still in CARAT .
PS:The only that we can say here is that the above 7km could be 10-12 km in a more realistic base.
does sa8 use sidelobe blanking (a omnidirectionnal antenna)? when working with mti how many pulse does it send before it can change frequency? does it use intrapulse coding (frequency coded? phase coded?) what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?) a plane can inject early false target ( false target before the real plane) and late target?if( there is no random intrapulse modulation) the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)? if not it can be jammed with a jam that simulate a no newtonian object? does it has protection against doppler velocity gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?)
when enemy use noise jamming on both surveillance radar and tracking radar , is there a way to have range ? can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)? can the enemy jam the SVR ? can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna? can the enemy jam the Monopulse Medium beam Missile Guidance Radar ? what's the missile beacon power , i guess it use frequency hopping , does it use too the spread Spectrum?
when working without mti does it frequency hopping between each pulse? if it is the case(without mti) a plane can't inject early false target (no false target before the real plane) only late target? does it has protection against range gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?) does it have protection against blinking jamming ?(2 planes that jam one after other , useless i guess because the camera ?
does it use random prf against target injection?
what modulation the sa8 use?
thx for answer
hi ePap can you answer those question ? thx for answering
does sa8 use sidelobe blanking (a omnidirectionnal antenna)? when working with mti how many pulse does it send before it can change frequency? does it use intrapulse coding (frequency coded? phase coded?) what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?) a plane can inject early false target ( false target before the real plane) and late target?if( there is no random intrapulse modulation) the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)? if not it can be jammed with a jam that simulate a no newtonian object? does it has protection against doppler velocity gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?)
when enemy use noise jamming on both surveillance radar and tracking radar , is there a way to have range ? can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)? can the enemy jam the SVR ? can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna? can the enemy jam the Monopulse Medium beam Missile Guidance Radar ? what's the missile beacon power , i guess it use frequency hopping , does it use too the spread Spectrum?
when working without mti does it frequency hopping between each pulse? if it is the case(without mti) a plane can't inject early false target (no false target before the real plane) only late target? does it has protection against range gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?) does it have protection against blinking jamming ?(2 planes that jam one after other , useless i guess because the camera ?
does it use random prf against target injection?
what modulation the sa8 use?
thx for answer
hi ePap can you answer those question ? thx for answering
All these questions are necessary in order to learn how the Samsim works ? ...unless you want to buy a real one...
Jamming might not be a problem in real life, but it is in SAM Sim, because there's no way to track a jamming target at night.
Tracking of a noise jamming target in angle with a monopulse design (SSC) is more than easy. Due to design, angle tracking errors are reduced by "x" magnitudes, compared to non jamming targets.
Arming the missile radio proxy fuse after launch, is a manual choice of the Firing Officer.
As the 9M33M2 can pull 25g during T/T guided flight, so target has to "do magic" to avoid hit.
as i remember sa-4 SCC has got a switch with green lamp to engage with jammer target but OSA doesnt have any thing like this !
i check all of button an switch around SCC pannel but they doesnt work at all ...
please some one hunt a jammer in lybia
It is the question I want to ask too...but no reply yet?
Jamming might not be a problem in real life, but it is in SAM Sim, because there's no way to track a jamming target at night.
Tracking of a noise jamming target in angle with a monopulse design (SSC) is more than easy. Due to design, angle tracking errors are reduced by "x" magnitudes, compared to non jamming targets.
Arming the missile radio proxy fuse after launch, is a manual choice of the Firing Officer.
As the 9M33M2 can pull 25g during T/T guided flight, so target has to "do magic" to avoid hit.
as i remember sa-4 SCC has got a switch with green lamp to engage with jammer target but OSA doesnt have any thing like this !
i check all of button an switch around SCC pannel but they doesnt work at all ...
please some one hunt a jammer in lybia
It is the question I want to ask too...but no reply yet?
It is a valid bug, and will be corrected in SAMSIM v928.2... ... that can be downloaded from here:
does sa8 use sidelobe blanking (a omnidirectionnal antenna)? when working with mti how many pulse does it send before it can change frequency? does it use intrapulse coding (frequency coded? phase coded?) what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?) a plane can inject early false target ( false target before the real plane) and late target?if( there is no random intrapulse modulation) the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)? if not it can be jammed with a jam that simulate a no newtonian object? does it has protection against doppler velocity gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?)
when enemy use noise jamming on both surveillance radar and tracking radar , is there a way to have range ? can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)? can the enemy jam the SVR ? can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna? can the enemy jam the Monopulse Medium beam Missile Guidance Radar ? what's the missile beacon power , i guess it use frequency hopping , does it use too the spread Spectrum?
when working without mti does it frequency hopping between each pulse? if it is the case(without mti) a plane can't inject early false target (no false target before the real plane) only late target? does it has protection against range gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?) does it have protection against blinking jamming ?(2 planes that jam one after other , useless i guess because the camera ?
does it use random prf against target injection?
what modulation the sa8 use?
thx for answer
hi ePap can you answer those question ? thx for answering
All these questions are necessary in order to learn how the Samsim works ? ...unless you want to buy a real one...
not about samsim but sa8 i 'd like to know the capability against many jamming technic , thx
If not, bad of course, I thought that it is possible.
No you can not.You can train your self in all procedures but to fire ,You can emulate a firing but not to shoot down planes. In firing places you can fire missiles and shoot down drones. Go and participate to a historic scenario where real war took place and fire missiles.
Why it's bad? It is wise ...
PS: maybe Hpasp can create a virtual "nowhere" land where we can fire agaist all kind of available targets .
In Hungary, too, is not possible to shoot, then what is the point of her doing so, there are Stealth is made, the question Why?
The Volkhov shoot the can, why it cannot be done.
NAMFI can shoot there, but there's little objective just 3 types of very small, why not at least 6 different types of targets.
Not all assignments made Cairo, very strange, let then Cairo would make the whole.
Very few types of purposes that's the problem, if you can do both in Greece and in the choice of the goal to choose such an editor, it would be good.
I think the problem is that it is not appropriate to shoot planes all around with a simulator (almost) real to the switch .
If you want you can choose among other sims to do so.
In principal a agree with not to do that even if in back of my mind my finger goes to the fire button if a create my self a scenario of a possible "zomby" crossing the airspace of my country ...
In page you are reffered,is not described the risk they took to implement this version of less capable OSA ! In a vital asset like a ship,you raise up the air deference chances you have.It is matter of surviving !
All the above under the assumption that ,two missile channels+TOB are better than one channel and no TOB,or OSA AK is more capable than the OSA-M.
All the above under the assumption that ,two missile channels+TOB are better than one channel and no TOB,or OSA AK is more capable than the OSA-M.
Probably they could mount more than one OSA-M/MA on a ship....
Yes,but still this does not explain why they did not include a second missile channel+TOB.
Think the following scenario: ASM is incoming.Detected and fired at 8 km. One missile on air until possible hit.Missile flight time,let's say 12 sec. Expecting the results with horror you realize(not seen at TOB) no hit,you fire another missile but it's to late....(with the second missile channel you could have your chance for a second fire )
The huge advantage of OSA AK compared to other Shorad systems(70s-90s) is that she can steer 2 missiles in one target (RF CLOS).
A missile, targeting something near the OSA... Or a range gate pulloff-jamming..
Nope.
If it was a missile or something like this,the radar return it should be much smaller of the plane. RGPO jamming should be in front of the plane and not behind. That's why I included two pictures ,for reference ...
Eh, equipment that's easy to operate is undeniably a good thing I'd assume. Maybe that's why?
its not all about equipments ... but i understand.. why this one is deadliest than other systems! fastest system in reaction to tracking ! that is the question how a command guided system can be fastest like sa-8 and one guy who operate that must answer this question
hpasp in first pages of this topic you wrote about osa missile speed is 500ms ... and during overload speed drop to 400ms but in manual page 27 you wrote 640ms
hpasp in first pages of this topic you wrote about osa missile speed is 500ms ... and during overload speed drop to 400ms but in manual page 27 you wrote 640ms
witch one is true ?
Osa missile theoretical speed vs flight time chart:
All SAMSim SAMs have this capability. Including the SA5.
Point the FCR and/or the Karat TV camera at the target. Electronic wizardry and radio signals guide the missile to and then along the boresight - this is SACLOS
Technically however if the missile has lead applied to it becomes "Command Guidance" as the FCR system is throwing the missile off to the side, but it could still be classed as SACLOS as it is still following automatically generated commands to a user designated target.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 08/18/1508:15 AM
guys... i have a question as we know... 9m33m2 warhead is weak only 15 kg ... 8tnt . 7fg so... how it can defeat one aircraft like f.15 or phantom f.4 ? is it possible or this system design for soft target . . like drones
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 08/18/1511:35 AM
Weight of the warhead has non-linear effect on the maximum miss distance the missile can approach the target, and still achieve kill. Do not forget, that the OSA missile can pull more g's during engagement, than the older missiles...
hpasp.. 1 .can u add black and white karat version on osa samsim ? is it possible gor u sir ?
2..........
This is a night time shot....
if u see the center of the karat .. u will se the target with white sign in the dark like a white dot in the karat plus... but in samsim.. u will not see anything in karat atvthe night
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 01/19/1602:37 AM
I was wondering if it would be possible to get an addition to the existing manual that shows all usable switches. The manual as it stands at the moment seems to cover most, but not all the usable switches, and unfortunately I don't read Russian (unlike some people here I'm sure).
If, however, the other switches have been animated just for #%&*$# and giggles, well, that'd be nice to know so I could stop wondering what they do.
Despite at least two media releases, that rebel's SA-8B was destroyed by Russian VKS, after more than two years after last release, new video appeared...:
(It could be an old video, released just now, no confirmation about recent helicopter loss in Syria...
I'm a noobie at Sam Simulator, and SA-8B, and having difficulty locking on to moving targets, range gate is the main issue, the control seems to move too slowly to capture a sub mach A4.
So whats the trick, or just patience and predicting the path.
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 03/21/1807:51 AM
Originally Posted by Slippery_Rat
I'm a noobie at Sam Simulator, and SA-8B, and having difficulty locking on to moving targets, range gate is the main issue, the control seems to move too slowly to capture a sub mach A4.
So whats the trick, or just patience and predicting the path.
It must be a quick way to move it (with buttons, like in SA-4... Check the manual...
Fi method against helicopters. The trajectory is quasybalistic, so the missile is approaching the target at 25 degrees from the groud, so even if the fuse is trigeret by the local objects or ground, the warhead elements will destroy it...
The "H" method... In case of jamming (distance to target not known) after "POMEHA" switch is on, the fuse is set at after 0.8 seconds after launch. The missile is skimming at 170-180 meters above the ground so the fuse cannot be trigered from the ground.....
Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) - 07/10/1910:47 AM
Originally Posted by piston79
TT (3 points) guidance method principle...
SA-8 TT (3 points) flight path
Some problems with low altitude targets
Method "Gorka" in SA-8...
"Gorka" method trajectory
Fi method against helicopters. The trajectory is quasybalistic, so the missile is approaching the target at 25 degrees from the groud, so even if the fuse is trigeret by the local objects or ground, the warhead elements will destroy it...
The "H" method... In case of jamming (distance to target not known) after "POMEHA" switch is on, the fuse is set at after 0.8 seconds after launch. The missile is skimming at 170-180 meters above the ground so the fuse cannot be trigered from the ground.....
Hpasp should be incredibly proud of the work he did on the SAMSIM!
Dunno... He kicked the project just like that.... He could just finish it with some Mission editor, so it could live on it's own... Also left some bugs....