Hi Gang,

Hope everyone is doing well. This is probably a question geared for the research side of WOFF, but I can think of no better place to ask. I'm trying to track down the origin of the shift in German aviators between the notion of "dry" and "wet" deaths during the conflict. In other words, the change from Boelcke's approach to, likely, Richthofen's methods for bringing down an enemy. Try as I might, I've searched my notes and cannot find the origin of this idea and its shift in the war. If anyone can shed some light on this, I'd be most appreciative.

Cheers!

Hi Cap.

Just a quick look at a couple of things shows me that Richthofen's methods were mostly a continuation of what he learned from Boelcke. When the Jagdstaffeln were created in August 1916,their purpose was to act as a 'hunting pack,' cooperating with one another to achieve air superiority in their sector, rather than being individual hunters or pairs of hunters.

This was further expanded when the Jagdgeschwaders were created in June 1917 to have an overall leader who could direct, not just hist own Staffel's activities, but a Group, working together.

In the Dicta Boelke, he says "For the Staffel (squadron): Attack on principle in groups of four or six. When the fight breaks up into a series of single combats, take care that several do not go for the same opponent."

That of any help?

JH

Are you asking about aiming for the engine or plane structures vs. aiming for the pilot?

Have not come across this expression before. Is it referring to Rick's question above? Or something else?

I said the same thing yesterday. As far as I remember, I've never seen those terms (dry/wet deaths) used before. Certainly not in any of MvR's writings. Will you please define them?

I'm going to say there was no real change between Boelcke's and MvR's methodologies. The latter's were born from the former's, and that's what he--and just about everyone else, if not everyone else--always used. When commanding the Geschwader later in the war the overall tactics were modified, as jerbear indicated, but an attack's core was still founded upon Boelcke's dicta.

I've heard of dry or wet where dry referred to going down in flames, and wet being shot down not in flames (there were even some German words for it that I can't find at the moment), but I haven't really heard that described as a specific technique (or preference) of Richthofen?

"Stinker" would be used for flamer

mind you, Germany has a lot of different slang, and a depending on the Squadron (Bavarian, Pruß etc..) each could have its own collection of words/meanings

This is great, because I've never seen/heard those references anywhere. Maybe it is born from some online or television "information"? Often, a vast amount of that is inaccurate/incorrect.

I've only heard the term mentioned by lederhosen, about a plane "stinking" when a damaged plane leaves a trail of vaporized fuel behind it. As per Lothar von Richthofen's definition: "The Englishman already 'stunk,' a flying expression for the ribbon of smoke from a punctured fuel or oil tank."

Yes, "Stinker" was used for an aeroplane with a smoke plume or similar and the possibility / probability, that it will burn soon (is my knowledge).

Greetings

I'll try to find it. I'm pretty sure it was in some book somewhere, as I had forgotten about it until this thread, so it wasn't recent...

Hallo @Rick,

I don't know the terms "dry / wet death". I hope you can find it.

I can imagine this:
I have found the expression "dry hit" for the normal hunt (animals). It means, that the animal hit by a bullet doesn't lose any blood. A "wet hit" means the opposite.

In transfer to the WW1-airfight it could mean this maybe:
wet hit / death: the damaged / crashed aeroplane does lose some kind of fluid (oil, fuel, cooling water, ...). Dry hit / death means the opposite.


It's only an idea, maybe I'm wrong.


Greetings

So here's what I found: It was in a book called Aces High by Alan Clark. The phrase was "fercht oder getrocknet" which he translates as "wet or dry" and relates as the pilot died from trauma (wet) or fire (burned). Unfortunately, the book is not footnoted so there are no references but the implication is that it is a phrase that would have been known at the time. I, of course, have no idea if that is true and will defer to the more knowledgeable members who have already or will chime in!

Gents, what can I say, I'm taken aback by how generous you all are with your time and knowledge. Thanks to all of you, and especially Rick for tracking that one down in Aces High.

A little background...

I'm working on a book on German First World War aviators and a colleague had mentioned the dry and wet deaths language - which I had not come across either. It refers to a dry death as being killed in a crash, and wet death - as I think you can imagine where I'm going with this - involves being burned alive. I cannot for the life of me find an origin point of this in any primary sources and...after a long time spent looking through my sources I finally decided to ask you all - figuring I must be missing a huge part of the story that I've somehow overlooked for the last 26 years.

This is what both makes the field so fascinating - I'm always learning something new - and so frustrating at times - information is so scattered and decentralized that it's easy to miss an important detail in the story.

I actually feel better knowing that you all were stumped as well lol

If nothing else, it means I haven't missed anything major - which makes me feel better about the work I'm doing. I'll give you all a shout when the book is published. Again, my thanks for searching and my apologies for any additional gnashed teeth or torn hair you might have encountered in your search.

Cheers!

No problem! Just for a note, should anyone find reference of it somewhere else, Clarke gives "getrocknet" - dried, the distinction of being the flamed death, as in there is no moisture left...

In "Push Me Pull You - A Dictionary of Aviation Slang", it claims it was an expression used by Oswald Boelcke, stating what he expected to be the alternatives for his own manner of death. It does reference Alan Clark's book in the footnotes.

I suppose it's possible that the phrase is a reference to the medieval idea of dry death and wet death, i.e., ashes to ashes dust to dust vs being so much oozy worm food when you're dropped in the grave.

(yup, I'm still around)

Fascinating find, Lou! I'll have to grab a copy of Clark and work it into my footnotes. Manuscript is coming up due fast.

For what it's worth - I audibly called out: "LOU"! when I saw you had replied. Hope you are doing okay these days, my friend.

Cheers

I will too: Lou!!!

.

Rick! Soppy! I'm doing great guys, hope you are as well. I miss you barmy lot. Life continues to stay busy and fun so I can't ask for much more than that. Well, maybe a bit of free time to get back into the WOFF cockpit. Fingers crossed!

🤞🤞🤞

I wouldn't put too much weight on what was written in Aces High. Lots of error, at least as regards MvR.

In any event, there is no German anecdotal evidence of any "shift" between Boelcke's tactics and MvR's, since the latter's was born from the former's and never really changed, just expanded to incorporate a Geschwader. But as MvR wrote, even during a Geschwader attack things usually turned into a 1 v 1 situation, which of course employed Boelcke's tactics.