There is no doubt that the methodology used by the IL-2 developers to ensure quality and compatibility has contributed to their success. We are in complete agreement there!

My perspective is that of a dedicated model and texture-maker, so it is understandable that I view modding from a different viewpoint. The success of the Red Orchestra mod team is directly attributable to the UT2K4 developers providing ACCESS to their game system through a series of comprehensive editors and SDK. That is how a sci-fi shooter was morphed into a respectable Russian front quasi-sim. Such a process is not possible with the IL-2 developer's approach to "filtering" mod activity - unless the IL-2 developers are in complete agreement with the modders.

If the UT2K4 developers had emulated Oleg Maddox, it is possible they would have said: "You want to WHAT?! Forget it!!"

I couldn’t agree more , Its totally my opinion but I believe that if PE had had a stable easy to use online game then it would still be a large playing community today. We had many different player sites, leagues competitions etc that really enhanced our experience of the game. But it proved (and still does to this day) a fiddly and somewhat unreliable multiplayer game. I personally enjoy the human AI in fact I think most would agree its is the best AI available and the social interaction produced from online play and the modding community.

Hey, sounds like there's lots of room for agreement here, and I do enjoy Red Orchestra-Ostfront very much too (and played the initial mod versions as well).....Ostfront is what I play online mostly these days.....it's easy to join, and easy out. Perhaps making an SDK for map creation to T vs T would be a good first start for potential modding (beside hoping the designers get that mission editor/creator out to us first)?

I too have been a modder for years (contributing to three "stand-alone" flight sim mods), but I can see some of the tumult that content addition brings to the multi-player aspect of simming. In Red Orchestra-Ostfront for instance, the developers are promoting complete mod conversions, and map creation, but also keep a good reign on content changes/additions, especially so since the sim is aimed exclusively at online play.

You know, it's been my experience in RO that the best maps are still the ones created by the game's designers. There have been a number of third-party maps I've enjoyed a lot too, but nothing bugs me more than getting on a server, only to find the next map chosen is a user-created version that I've now got to download, and have no familiarity with, and end up being last to select my weapon, and left to basically wallow around taking "baby steps" while the battle rages. For sure any new game map takes time to learn, and just when I think I have, here comes version III of "Lost in the Woods" that I now have to download in order to play (all over again).

(dump time, and I'm back looking for another server to join)

Ok, sorry if this post kinda turned into a rant session (sorry).

I'm hoping you see where I'm coming from though.

One of the concepts we tossed around with RO was a fluid battlefield map.
In simple terms the maps are linked or extensions and change depending on the result of the game.
So say there are five maps 1- 5 the starting map is 3 and each side has equal resources i.e a balanced amount of AFV’s. If side (a) wins then the next map (2) has say 25% ( or a greater amount of heavy amour) increase of resources in favor of side (b). If (a) wins again then map (1) has 50% ( say + x3 the amount of artillery strikes or fixed AT emplacements – mine fields etc ) more resources than side (a) making the last map hard to win but really reflecting the fact the (a)’s supply lines are stretched and that (b) is closer to their reserves. I personally think it would make for better team play and formulation of strategies

Excellent idea 5tide.

I considered trying the lastest WW2 RT game Company of Heroes, but when I read that gameplay would be based on securing something akin to build nodes and supply points I balked.

To me, tactical-level battle and maneuver certainly involves protecting one's own lines of communication (and threatening the enemy's), but basing gameplay on seizing or creating supply and building points is more of a strategic-level concept.....like managing a logistical system that is totally beyond the realm of a tactical force leader's responsibilities (again, beyond that of keeping his own supply lines open).

I like the ideas you've forwarded 5tide, on how to allow for the ebb and flow of mobile warfare, while allowing for a reasonable enemy response to the initial contact, through reinforcement and allowing counterattack. Might even consider having a random force multiplier formula enabled, so that neither side would ever know for sure what reinforcement amount(s) were to be expected as the battle raged from one map to the next(?).

Mission editor, mission editor, mission editor. What we pleaded for in 1999 for PE. Dare I mention Pz Cdr that actually had a decent user friendly editor. A sim with a mission editor that any plyr can use lives forever - well almost forever.
We at PE's Ostpack released 40 PE scenarios and many of those without Teut releasing a mission editor but it was ectremely time consuming and, at times a bit ugly. There were 3, then 5 then 3 then 2 of us and finally 1 when I left and BobR released 2 more PE scenarios.
It simply makes no sense not to have a mission editor for "everyman."
And in passing "Hi" to Major Maggee and 5tide from EdK. BobR are you listening?

In addition to editor, quick mission editor just as in IL2 would be nice. That future kept me playing for many years!

Here's another nice image I found. Kinda sets the mood for a picnic, doesn't it?

Looks like Ivan's fishing holiday down by the creek just got cancelled.

Great looking water effects btw, et al.

wow !!! u could drink that water lucks so yum ! hehe
we should have a caption competion for the screeny lol

Great looking scene. Now just shatter most of the trees, burn the grass, and muddy the water, and you have a realistic battlefield.

I think FlyRetired, Geezer, Hetzer, and 5tide have just about nailed it. My two cents would be to provide for importing elevation data to create true-to-life maps of the actual battle terrain, and spend time on the physics, and AI code so things behave realisticly.

My mind can fill in the eye candy if things do what they're supposed to, but the best looking wingman in the world shouldn't be able to "leap tall buildings in a single bound". A perfect example is the effect that differences in ground pressure has on the tactics available to the Soviets versus the Germans depending on the weather, and the terrain.

One thought about the mission editor. How you structure the interface can go a long way toward maintaining compatibility. If it leads the scenario designer through the proper steps it should help keep the quality up to standard. Perhaps follow the format for an US Army Op Order to insure you populate the needed data, while you're building the mission briefing.

Speaking of weather, ground pressure, and special terrain effects (the sim's road dust animation is looking nice).



One question I have for Rainer at the moment, is whether AFVs shudder, sending a cloud of dust into their surroundings as they let loose with their heavy armament? We've all seen German wartime film footage of one of the Big Cats opening up in close proximity to the camera's view.....and dust goes flying off the tank's superstructure and road wheels.....and all this in addition to the gun smoke exiting from the tank's muzzle brake. Even seen mud go slinging into the air from a vehicle when it opens up with the main gun in a sequenced filmed during a rainy season.

Any chance of these special gun-firing sequences being in evidence in the pre-alpha build yet Rainer?

P.S. Those collision shots of the T-34-85 and the cottage previewed on the previous page would be a perfect opportunity to render some of these particle effects upon impact (both off the vehicle and from the shack's collapsing old timbers).

Indeed, Dave, there are such effects already. You can see the dust kicking up from around the Tiger when it shoots! SFX are, of course, not finalized yet!

Sinking In The Soft Ground Of A Forest Trail

I'm was thinking about things like slowing on a grade, breaking distance being a function of speed, and trees or buildings offering variable resistance based on their size and the momentum (weight x speed) of the tank. Even fallen trees should present an obstacle so an abatis can be constructed to channel units around forests.

Sorry Major if I used your post as a segway for talking about special effects! Let me clear the smoke a bit ( ) and add some more support to your discussion on vehicular mobility differences, and precautions, and techniques (these excerpts from the Tigerfibel):

Buildings and Walls
Should not be run over! The rubble looks better in the weekly movietone news than on the tail end of Your Tiger. The blower will suck in all the dirt and dust, the radiator is covered up and no longer functions. The engine overheats and fails.

Tarp, leaves, rubble, luggage
Must not lay on the blower cover or disturb the cannon when rotating the turret.

Morass, swamps
Avoid dark areas and high grass. Prefer to make long detours. Investigate the ground on foot. Take another man piggyback and stand on one leg. If the ground carries You, it will carry the tank. Go through swiftly, do not steer or change gears. If You get stuck, do not dig Yourself in attempting to get out. Another Tiger will pull You out. Anchor the cable, hook into the tracks and pull Yourself out.

Log dam
The dam must be 3.5 meters in width and the logs must be at least 15 cm in diameter. Otherwise they will break or work loose when passing over the dam.

Rivers
A solid riverbed and firm riverbanks are necessary. Where other tanks wade through the water, the Tiger can go too. Turn off the engine and prepare for underwater driving. Close the sump vent, turn on the bilge pump.

Bridges
Investigate on foot. Prefer to ford. Stop in front of the bridge. Position the Tiger so it can be crossed without any need to steer. Select low gear, do not change gears, do not stop, drive slower than walking pace. Accelerate only after 5 meters of having crossed the bridge.

Ditches and craters
Approach head on, avoid wet areas.

Wooded areas
The Tiger will tear down trees up to 80 cm in diameter using the edge of the front plate. If the clearance between trees is too narrow, drive in a zig-zag pattern, with one side running free.

Mines
Stay on the tracks, bump back on tracks, do not steer, eliminate mines if possible.

Snow
New dry snow is no reason for concern below 70 cm in height. Compacted snow or sleet only up to the level of ground clearance - 50 cm.

Ice
Throw chainlink in front of the track, use inertia, do not steer, approach edges or ditches with one track. Using twigs or sand for traction makes little sense.

Hey guys, are we sure we want all this mobility "realism" (especially that part about the "one-legged piggyback test")? :winkbiggrin:

Seriously though, as MajorMagee is indicating here, getting the physics of mobility nailed is essential for replicating the differences between tracked, semi-tracked, and wheeled vehicles, and the limitations between their weight classes and particular designs.

I wonder if Rainer has any comments (insights) yet on T vs T, from his experience of driving around the different AFVs in the sim's present build (that he can share)?

Can't really tell you much about that, really! I am sure that we will be able to improve upon those things and make them more aparent! For now, there are lots of particle effects in the game. Some well made, some overdone or not correctly modelled. But I am sure we will be able to improve that soon!

Oh, I think we were looking more for any comments you might have about mobility issues....like bogging in soft/wet ground, over-weighting bridges, forest movement, fording, etc. (?)

Will the snorkel on the Tiger be operational?

Also, how about a cheapo video giving us a sneak peak at what is going on?

All I can say is.....#%&*$#!!!!! This going to be one hellova sim.