First off, that quip that I made was a joke. I have probably shouldn't have done it because I knew that someone would be 'offended' by it but I really don't like the name. I think the name should keep itself true to the Flanker roots of the title. I understand the need to cross over into other areas and unfortunatly most people who are nothing more than casual fans of the Genre don't give a whig about flying an Su 27/33 Flanker. Its too bad, its a wonderful airplane but that's the way it is.

The fact that I don't like the name is immaterial but I did want to voice my opinion that I thought the name choice was not very good. I should have phrased that better and for that I apologize.

As for the 'lock' cracks. The Lock on part is fine as far as I'm concerned.

A better Name using the title Flanker would have been IMHO :

Lockon: Flanker x.xx

Flanker: Modern Air Combat

or even:

Lockon: Modern Air Combat: Flanker x.xx

As I said before, I will definately get the game. I have flown Flanker since the first version (it was the third game I bought) and although I suck royally as a jet driver I still enjoy the game. One of the things that kept Flanker 1.0/1.5 on my hard drive was the fact that it wasn't a dumbed down title. I don't think that Lock ON will be dumbed down, I sure hope not.

Now as for the insults flying here. Yes I started it with my little quip but lets please stop this now before it degenerates into an insult fest.

Thanks for defending me Teapot but I should have known better for making that post.



------------------
Tom Cofield
Contributing Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com

*grumble*
*mutter*
but it was just getting fun..
*whiiiine*


Anyways..I don't think that the sim will be dumbed down either.

I think that SSI has a great game engine that already models things such as Flight Model and weapons parameters with a very high level of fidelity.

What they're doing (I think ) is using this engine and adapting it to the new aircraft..hence there shouldn't be much dumbing down.

Consider when Falcon series introduced the Mig..it used the same engine basically..just a new plane..and little was 'dumbed down'.

It's the same thing I forsee happening here...SSI is leveraging their existing investment in their game engine.

This is perhaps the holy grail of game development..and especially sim development:
If you can take one engine and modify it to fit several aircraft you could potentially have a cash cow creating new detailed campaigns,Aircraft and Terrain add-ons.

I DO hope they introduce more FUN elements into the game.
I don't enjoy having an accurate simulation of an aircraft..I want a game to fly around and have fun in.

From posts on the offical Flanker 2 forums, however,they do seem to be including several options (slider bars? ) so players can customise the game to their liking,as well as some sort of pilot tracking etc..which is a good thing



Dino:

*sheepish look*
the reason I edited was becaused I typed Lock ON!:Modern Air Combat

*pops a meth*
YABBA DABBAAA DOOOOOOO!

*sneaks off into the psychedelic ether*

-Gel
http://www.carigamer.com

Elmers

And it was just a series of bad puns, and yes it was meant to be humorous to a point(yeah i failed miserably there ).

Glad to know Tom is actually a good guy..
I, on the other hand,am a neutral agnostic


------------------
-Gel214th
CO 214th Annihilators

http://www.214th.com/flanker2

Flanker 3.0


That´s all.



------------------
Edgardo F. Alessio
Visit the ECV 56 Cóndor site!!!

The problem with calling it Flanker 3.0 is that amny players will shy away from it.

1: cos its Russian.
2: because Flanker says to simmers: hi fidelity, low graphics.
3: very hard to play and get into.

Remember the rows about the opening movie in these boards when F2 came out?

("I won't buy it because they are shooting down F/A-18s")

This on the other hand is a far better way to go.

Gavin

Gavin I am afraid you are right about that. In my upcoming IL2 preview I state my concerns about poor sales because it is about the Russian Front. Although another problem with IL2 will be with sales and distribution (only online but that may change with new ownership of Blue Byte) I think the game may have only a niche problem due to the subject matter. This is too bad, the Russian Front has been neglected for too long.

I can understand why SSI decided to change the name from Flanker x.xx to something a little more appealing to a mass market. I certainly hope that the name that I hate is a game that everyone loves and it reaches and grabs a while new population of gamers. As long as they don't dumb the game down they will draw some people into the game. I am sure the Novalogic Mig 29 fans might actually gravitate to the title. I have no reason to doubt Matt so I have my 45 bucks all ready to buy the next version of the Flanker series when it comes out.



------------------
Tom Cofield
Contributing Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com

Tom, Rubles....not bucks or dollars....

If this game is successful, it could save the Russian Economy, allowing them to build the next generation fighter.

That in turn would allow for future wars to occur between third world countries who buy those new fighters, in say 5 - 10 years.

The net effect of this will be that eventually the U.S. and it's NATO allies, sans France, will be able to engage their new toys and prove once and for all which is better.

Heck maybe if we are lucky, the Russians will send "advisors" to the country at War. And just maybe they will decide to fly and challenge the Western Capitalist Pigs who are threatening their loyal client state.

Now that is what dreams are made of.... =)

Lockon: Modern Air Combat...feel the power!

Now I remember why I responded to you the way I did.

See..I don't think you're really joking around here, which makes your jabs at Russia anything but Humorous.

Frankly the Russian developers are kicking your american asses in terms of flight sim development, as are the Europeans.

Pretty soon if you continue with your outdated and myopic viewpoints and prejudices, you won't have a sim to fly.



That would truly be a sad thing, and a very poor reflection on the prejudices of Americans even in this day and age of global integration.

To me that stance has less to do with patriotism and more to do with bigotry, stupidity,and a false sense of superiority.

I hope IL2 and Lock On kicks ass and they both sell very well.

That will prove that the intolerant views expressed on these and other forums toward flight sims which are developed by and focus on the various wars from the perspective of other countrys, belong to a diminishing minority.

I remember with great sadness when I was surfing the newsgroups and saw some of the reasons why some Americans refused to even try Flanker 2. And all this time I was playing Falcon 4 and JF18 I thought I was just playing a game and having fun. I didn't realise that there were sick people out there attaching more significance to downing a Mig than simply enjoying the act of playing the game.

I say sick because there's something wrong when you can think it is O.K. to shoot down a pixelated aircraft flying the Russian flag, but not O.K. to shoot down the same pixelated F18 from the cockpit of an SU27.

I have no doubts that these games will be shining examples of their Genre and help define it for future titles.

I hope that Lock On shows them doing a fly-by just before they sink the Eisenhower while American sailors play basketball on the deck. *snicker*


So you can all put that in your pipes and smoke it over a backyard barbecue.

-Gel,
A Proud Trini.
"Discipline,Tolerance and Production".
http://www.carigamer.com

In my opinion, the title is perfect. What they are looking for is to grab the attention of the mass market. Judging from the posts, they already have us flanker fans in the bag. So they need to start bringing in more fans for this sim.
I know its odd that an American won't buy the game because you can shoot down an American aircraft rather than a Russian,but a lot of us have some wierd ideas on ethics. Oh well, they'll miss out on a great sim . As for me, I'm already eagerly awaiting the release date.

Gel,

If the Russians are so great, why do they need Matt Wagner or Stormin' Carl Norman? Kind of a contradiction in my opinion.

I guess the Russians need Americans to teach them the Western Capitalist methods of business so they too can experience multiplied fiscal success, which will allow them to buy exspensive vehicles, smoke well made cigars and buy haute coutre clothing for their girl friendski or wifeski at the local boutique or bazar.

Futhermore, for all of America's faults, and they are many, who ya' gonna call when all hell breaks loose? Spain? Don't think so.

I never said I was not going to buy Lockon: Flightsim of Champions. In fact, I own Flanker 2.0. I must admit though, yawn when it comes to environment. Beautiful, yes...devoid of all symblances of life, yes. Do I hear a ROGER from the ATC Choir?

Anyway, keep up the post. They are a hoot to read!

Me thinks thou protest to much though.

Well, the Russian developers are doing a fantastic job and aren't asking for the money that some of their American and European counterparts are. Some of this is natural, the cost of living in Russia is less than in the west and some of it is because western Developers have been used to getting a lot of money.

Lets face it, I have talked to enough developers and producers of games and none of them are doing this for the money. If they wanted to make money they would knock out a crappy Command in Conquer RTS clone and rake in the money. Hell, a Quake III mode probably brings in more money that Fa 18 will. I know Tiger Wood's 2K probably tripled what F15 and Fa 18 combined.

This isn't necessarily bad, it means that we have a lot of folks that really want to make these games and that the 'dead' weight or the get rich quick guys leave real quick but it also makes it hard for these guys to make a living. I respect companies like SSI for continuing to support the Flanker series (no matter what the name is-Sorry Matt, I should have held my tongue at that prior crack) in the face of what has been lackluster sales of the series as of recently.

What we evil capitalistic pigs bring to the table is the ability to keep developers in Russia solvent. If they continue to make decent games, they can have my money. That is the essence of Capitalism, make a decent product that people want and you make money. Make garbage or something that the public doesn't want and you fold. It doesn't always work that way, look at Myst, but the theory is still there.

Gel, I think the reason that people won't be interested in a WW2 Russian Front (ok, Great Patriotic War) sim is not because they are patently against the Soviet Union or don't want to fly for the 'Godless Commies'. I think Oleg would probably refuse to even give the game to anyone with those views. Those types of clowns may be the most vocal but IMHO they also are a very small minority.

What keeps folks from getting games like IL2, or FLANKER (or even Battle of Britain) is a relative lack of knowledge about the subject. Most people know something about things like the Battle of Stalingrad and a few may know about battles like Kursk or the siege of Lenigrad but for the most part the average 35 year old guy is very, very ignorant of the Eastern Front. These same guys have never seen a Flanker or a Yak 9 at the local Air Show but they have seen an FA 18 or P-51 and just seeing those things makes you want to fly one.

To the average American, the Great Patriotic War seems distant and it doesn't touch people in the West like it did the people in Russia that fought it. I am sure that people in Russia have the same feelings about the US bombing campaign over Germany in WW2. Most Russians knew about it but can't get too 'into' the idea because they didn't have grandparents, or uncles or fathers that fought and died in that particular part of the war. YOu don't see B-17s and P-38s at most Russian Air Shows but you do see Su 27s and La 5s so you can get excited about a sim that has the plane you just saw in it.

I don't see it as racism or even nationalism. It is more apathy and desire to stick with what is familiar.

Where you might get some sales, is in Germany, where there are people who have direct links to people who fought and died on the Eastern front. I wouldn't be suprised if Germany is the biggest buyer of IL2.

------------------
Tom Cofield
Contributing Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com

[This message has been edited by SimHQ Tom Cofield (edited February 21, 2001).]

I strongly disagree.
See the response by barney-boy above to see one example of why.

"why do they need Matt Wagner or Stormin' Carl Norman? "

"the Russians need Americans to teach them the Western Capitalist methods of business "

"who ya' gonna call when all hell breaks loose? Spain? "


I have seen it plainly said, and I know you have as well, on the Flightsim newsgroups that "I will not fly this plane, because I can't get into shooting down american aircraft" or
"I can't fly for the Russians".

Those sentiments are out there, and it has nothing to do with not knowing about one war or the other.

The majority of flight simmers don't know about any of these wars either, so what's the real reason they won't fly the aircraft/play the game?

Comes back to my original post.

And I stand by my original statement that I find such sentiment alarming when it relates to a computer game.

I can't relate to such a case of narrowmindedness,a misplaced sense of superiority, and a false perhaps inbred sense of bigotry that is carefully hidden under the guise of "Nationalism".

As for you Dino..*shrug*..you just got Locked off.

ciao.

-Gél214th
http://www.carigamer.com
http://www.214th.com/flanker2

I'm curious about how they plan to make an avionics model that will work with both the Russian and American aircraft. With flanker2, there are very few things you need to play around with when it comes to your radar modes, nav, weapons, etc...While in F/18 and F/15 I have several MFDs to play around with as well as the ability to set programs up for your weapons, auto pilot, EW, etc...
I have always been a fan of the flanker2 flight model and a fan of F/18s avionics. This game should prove to be interesting .

P.S. I'm looking forward to playing with warthog and the frogfoot with the beautiful flight model of F2.

I'm not saying that there aren't people in the US that would refuse to fly a Russian plane, I am sure there are.

At the same time, I am sure that there are Russians who would refuse to fly and F-15 against the Russian Aircraft. The nationalistic feelings can go both ways and I am sure it has.

"I can't relate to such a case of narrowmindedness,a misplaced sense of superiority, and a false perhaps inbred sense of bigotry that is carefully hidden under the guise of "Nationalism"."

Well, there is plenty of that in all countries, including Russia. Look at the skinhead movement and the past pogroms against non ethnic Russians. I'm not saying you personally are a nationalist but the same things that make you proud to be Russian make most Americans proud to be Americans. Nationalism has gotten a bad rap, really. When you swell with pride as your national anthem is being played, well that's nationalism. Stalin used nationalism to drive the German's out, if the 'Mother Russia cry' (funny coming from a Georgian) hadn't been used to its propaganda best, then maybe the Russians would have folded under the Wehrmacht. Nationalism is used for both good and bad.

You stated earlier a statement about how Russian Developers are kicking American's butts. Well, I hate to say it but that is very close to a 'Nationalistic' statement. You may not agree with my assessment but there are people who would interpret it that way.

I'm glad that good programs are coming out of Russia. In all honesty, as a consumer, I don't care if they come from Russia, Japan, or the moon as long as they give me what I desire as far as gameplay is concerned. If someone doesn't buy a game because it was made by 'some Russian' then the hell with him.

I am not talking about those people. While its unfortunate that people in all countries hold these kinds of 'anti foreigner' views, it is a reality. I still think that you are talking about a relatively small minority. I know a lot of casual simulation owners (those that fly Mig 29/F-16 or USAF/ or CFSII) that have never bought Flanker just because they think the game is too complicated. At the same time, it is only recently that these guys have been exposed to Russian Aircraft, and most of this has been on the Discovery Channel.

Don't think it is racism or nationalism that hurts sales of Russian titles or Russian subject matter in Western countries. There may be some of that, there probably is, but that in no way is the main reason that people don't buy the games. If that was the case, then no name change would create sales of Lock On once the nationalist Americans found out who created the game.


"The majority of flight simmers don't know about any of these wars either, so what's the real reason they won't fly the aircraft/play the game?"

They won't play the game because it doens't interest them. I don't play space sims because they don't interest me. No matter how good the game is, I cannot let my imagine take me into a space sim. To a guy that has no clue as to what happened in 1941-45 on the Eastern Front, it is like a space sim. Some will be curious and maybe try it out, but most will stick with something that they find comfortable. Americans are good at this. That is why CFSII, which is probably going to be inferior to IL2 will sell more copies. It is comfortable (and marketed by Microsoft, don't forget that).

This is an interesting thread. It is amazing to discuss these things in a rational manner. We all should realize that the Cold War has really only ended about 10 years ago. All the feelings and all the mistrust over the previous two generations (not counting ours) will not go away in a few short years. Dialogue, and not confrontationalism, will make the hatred diminish.

Thomas S. Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com

[This message has been edited by SimHQ Tom Cofield (edited February 22, 2001).]

Gel,

Can't we all just get along? Why are you injecting racism into this? It is nothing of the sorts.

It's a game for crying out loud! Some people like to fly Western built planes, others like to fly Russian built planes. Does that make them a racist?

You need to step back for a few days and rethink your positions. You are starting to look rather foolish flaming the wind with your insecurities of a hate retoric conspiracy existing within the sim community.

If I or anyone else have issues with the country formally known as the USSR, it's not because of the race. The last time I checked, the former USSR was a melting pot of different races living in Russia, Ukraine and all the other satellite countries of the old Soviet regiem.

I do have some political differences with the country regarding some issues and causes they support, but overall, since 1991-1992 the country has improved. Let's hope it continues. =)

If you want to talk racism, all countries are guilty including the USSR and the current Russia. The USSR killed over 20,000,000 of it's own people, mainly Jews, between WWII and the present day. I may be confused, but that number seems higher than the genocide Hitler inflicted upon the Pols, Jews and Slavs during all of WWII.

In any case, I don't want this to be a political discussion or one about race. We should be talking about Flight Sims!! The almighty uniter of people everywhere.

Take care Gel.

Good points Cory - I have to say, that's one of the things I'm looking forward to in Lock On. If you've been over to the Flanker2 forum, matt's made a couple of posts stating that the intention (note, it's not coded yet, and stuff does change between design & implementation) is to model the F-15 avionics etc with a high degree of fidelity. Of course, the other thing I'm looking forward to is...

Damn straight! I don't know any sim that flies as nicely as F2 - one of the few sims I have where just going up to fly around doing aerobatics is fun enough...


------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

Come come..where did I inject Racism?

It was your own silly little quips and prods which started this whole thing off, as I stated in my previous post. I also quoted rather unflattering statements made by yourself toward the Russian developers of the sim in question, Flanker 2, which you attmepted to use to bolster your point that the Russians need American capitalists in order to save their poor suffering selves.

Did someone else write that,Dino? Because unless you went back and edited your text it seems that's exactly what you said.

So I'm not injecting anything, I'm responding to it.

And I think you're being quite sarcastic once more.

Tom:
The Russian developers kicking american developer's butts in the Combat flight sim world at the moment, is a fact..but it was phrased in that particular way to rebutt the aspersions raised by Dino

CFSII was a best selling flight sim because it was a great game. Period.

I don't care where the game took place, what planes were available to be flown,or how realistic the flight model is..CFSII is a TOP GAME.

It seems to have everything the average joe could want in a flight sim. And we all know there's no pleasing the anal-hardcore group,so the average joe is who you have to aim for and give him the room to grow to a higher level of fidelity in the game

CFSII pulls you into the entire atmosphere of those old WWII planes, with the missions, cutscenes, pilot history..the wild extensibility of the game with new planes available, new flight models..I mean it is just a great game..and whether one hates M$ or the fact that CFSII's flight Models may not be all there, you have to look at what Microsoft has produced, and why it was successful.

Even factoring in the amazing marketing might of M$: They weren't marketing vapour..they were marketing something with substance.

Now, let's turn this around to if CFSII focussed on Russian aircraft.

Same game, same features..you're saying that it would not have been as popular because people don't know the background behind the game.

I think your space sim analogy goes a bit too far, we're not talking chalk and cheese here.

We are instead talking about racing a Volvo in Germany..vs racing a Ford in Arizona.

I think that a Russian (just for argument's sake) CFSII would not have sold as well simply because it chose to focus on the Russians, and because of this sort of ingrained negativity and stigma that seems to seep to the fore in military circles when dealing with the Iron Curtain.

True, the cold war did end 10 years ago...and perhaps we're worse off for that fact now.
The world, to me, has become far more unstable than it was back then.

But the old prejudices still remain, making it even worse in our new unstable era.

I think that even though the physical forces involved in the cold war have been lifted, the psychological scars still live on in the minds of many Americans.

This is what I'm referring to in my responses when I speak of misguided patriotism/nationalism and the fact that someone could shift some sort of meaning toward blowing up a Russian plane on their monitor.

Because if you stop to think about it..that's exactly what someone who says they can blow up Russian and CHinese aircraft all day, but can't fly a Chinese flight sim, is doing.

They are ascribing qualities to those pixelated images that has a lot of significance to them.
I don't think that's healthy.

If I feel so much about a game, that I can't fight American forces..then I sure as hell would have similar trouble playing that game and fighting and destroying anyone else..because destruction is destruction..death is death.

But with that misguided patriotism, destruction and death are ok because it's not Americans or allies..

see what I'm getting at when i say I find it a disturbing trend of thought in a computer game?

You say that this is a minority..but the flight sim community on the whole is a minority..and those knowledgeable few we look up to in the flight sim circles may themselves perpetuate these prejudices simply because they belong to the Old School.

And thus these same views filter down ad-infinitum to the newcomers.

SSI themselves seem to have realised this..and perhaps it's why they decided to include NATO aircraft in their next game.

Sure, the popularity of the aircraft in question had something to do with it..but was that the only reason?
I don't think so.

I think that in addition to that the reason may be closer to what we've been talking about here.

And if a Combat Flight Sim company factored that thinking into their decision to change the focus of their game because it could affect their bottom line...then the prejudice may not be as much in the minority as we want to believe..eh Tom?


Maybe when I get carigamer.com off the ground a bit more I'll get a chance to interview either Carl or Matt and put the question to them

-Gel
http://www.carigamer.com

Wow. It's amazing that an argument over what we are calling our next flight sim product can turn into accusations of racisim and nationalism.

For the record: We Americans need the support and talent of our Russian colleagues and likewise, they require our talents and support. It's called TEAMWORK and it doesn't have a flag on it.

I've become very good friends with those folks in Moscow and I am pleased to have friends around the world because of Flanker and my work on simulations. I know it is a cliche and a bit corny, but the diversity of our community is a strength and one of the things I enjoy most about the hobby.

There are plenty of better names than "Lock On." We know because we tried to use just about every other name. None, and I mean NONE of them passed our Legal Department as being free to use. We like the Flanker name but realized that the association of the name with being a Russian aircraft only product was not going to help us keep this product line going. We put in some American planes because that was the most requested thing that the community has requested. We'd love to add some European aircraft in the future, but no promises at this time.

It's not just for the general consumer that we are changing the name, the retailers, the marketing folks, and the sales folks need to work with a name that is more encompassing of modern jet combat. Perception at those levels makes a big difference in the success or failure of a retail product.

Lock On was not my first choice, but I accept it and realize the reputation and content of the product will make the grade, not the damn name.

Why don't you guys stop fighting each other and share the glory of modern combat simulation with one another? Our hobby has enough problems without everyone getting into pissing contests over the slightest issue or disagreement.

There - I got that off my chest. Let's play nice.

Cheers,
Carl


------------------
Carl C. Norman
Director of Product Development
Game Studios / SSI
A Division of The Learning Company

"I'm looking for marbles ALL DAY LONG!"
- Ensign Frank Pulver (Jack Lemmon)in the movie MR. ROBERTS



[This message has been edited by Combatsim_ssi (edited February 23, 2001).]

Hi Carl.

Can't really say much to amplify this, but there is this.

East West tensions are ramping up again. The usual issues of global influence are being trotted out. The evil Americans are bombing Iraq and the evil Russians are bombing Chechnya.

Wouldn't it be far more healthy if we were blowing the crap out of one another in a nice little game called Lock On, by SSI?

Gavin

BTW-

Its hardly corny to be proud that your work has made you friends.

It's something to be proud of. Moreso, when your work is also worthy.

Gavin