JRT:



That sounds exactly like the saying I was looking for.

Following vadenstick excellent example:

Osram,
I was deeply touched by your writings. I understand how hard it must be for you and many Germans like you to try and come to terms with the past for yourselves. To try and explain it to other nationalities must be harder still.
It has been my great honour to have served in Germany and to have worked with Germans both in your country and mine. To a very large degree I have found your countrymen to be welcoming and sincere. I count several Germans among my best friends.
From my perspective, and indeed that of many Britons, coming from a military family who lost members in both wars, there is no national blame to be laid at anyones door.
There are exceptions of course, those who will not let the past rest and I expect these people exist in your country also.
Nations go to war, but it is people who propagate views and prejudices that occasion wars. People are always its casualties too, while often the politics, views and mindsets live on to corrupt again.
None of the countries which fought WW2 are entirely without guilt of one sort or another. Yes, your country gave rise to the Nazis and terrible crimes were indeed committed. But fanatical nationalism lives on still in many countries, not least of which is my own. Is it not also the same to point out that terrible crimes were committed in Russia, in Cambodia and in Rwanda and Bosnia. That does not make all Russians or Bosnians or Rwandans guilty in the same way that it does not make all Germans guilty of Hitler and his supporters crimes.
Many Germans did stand up to him. Many lost their lives doing so. But had Hitler been a Frenchman or a Briton, it is hardly likely that the populations would have behaved much differently, and nobody could prove otherwise. The evidence for that claim can daily be seen on our streets, on French streets or even American streets. The evidence is that it is people who commit crimes, and not nations.
The vast majority of Germans served their nation, most in ignorance of what was happenning. Many would have known. But no other nation could stand up and say that they do not have criminals in their midst, that they do not have people who love their country or that they do not have people who would be frightened to resist. It is easy to be judgemental when your own crimes are not on trial.
I and many Britons like me, accept that when our nations were at war, our young men on both side set out to serve their countries and many lost their lives in the process. Many were motivated by bad judgement, greed or just plain cruelty. But the overwhelming majority, on both sides, did what they felt was their duty. I don't believe that that is too much to excuse anyone of.
I hope my words mean something to you.
Thank you.

Zerosan2

All,

Osram, That was undoubtedly the most direct, most clearly stated view on the events of the Nazi and Germany of that period that I have even had the furtune of reading outside professional circles. Your assessment of Hitler, both in terms of his intelligence and his political and national strategies are IMO spot on, like our English fiends here like to say.

It is so completely facinating to me to hear this from a German. Your's is a perspective on those years that I....., we in America do not for the most part hear. Events such as Coventry were the prelude to larger events like Dresden, both horrible at diffeent levels if that makes any sense.

In any case, thank you for sharing your views. It is a good thing to be able to hear it and try to understand the parts that do not mirror how we have learned it here.

Now do take time from all the drab programming, fly a few missions for the Luftwaffe and report here with a full accounting of your actions. That is when you have time . Thanks again.

Folks,

OSRAM:

I wrote the best response that I could think of for friend DD. In the final analysis it could never compare to the eloquence of what you have so candidly written. No one can speak for you as well as you speak for yourself, no matter how impartial or high their motives may be.

Thank you for sharing your innermost thoughts. I especially appreciate the words about your father and the first hand anecdotes of people you know.

The German volk were in a weakened state after the war and easily mesmerized by Der Fuhrer. The treaty of Versailles was far too punitive and harsh. Certainly this was a powerful catalytic factor in the rise of the Nazis.

Hitler was supposed to be the savior of the Teutonic race. During the war "Adolph Hitler, Der Liebling's Bloomer" was a very popular song. I do not expect that this is sung much in the nurseries or kindegartens of Germany today.

Oh, is that a Vargas girl? Well done. I think there is allways room for those around here.

Zerosan2:

Very well said, as always, just the right words, forming just the right phrases.
This is amazingly interesting stuff but we really need a few more first hand accounts of daring do in the skies.

------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

[This message has been edited by Jolly Roger Too (edited 02-04-2002).]

Folks,

SNAFU, Old Man:

Unnoficial Editor's note: When last I counted,(I believe it was on Saturday last) there were no "fiends" found here lurking in the shadows patiently waiting to grasp poor OSRAM round his unshaven Adams apple.

Doutless, you meant friends and there are many of those to be sure. I wonder what OSRAM's electronic translation of that little word was in German? Will we ever hear from him again?

------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

Unfortunately most people were Mitläufer, also in the occupied countries. Watched and looked but did nothing. Of course most people are still like that.



As a medical man myself I fully appreciate your assessment of engineers
However, in medicine some of the worst excesses of nazism occurred. I agree that in itself people's education has nothing to do with whether they supported the nazis or not. In Holland it was the dockers of Amsterdam who showed most courage against the occupying forces.




The number of german prisoners of the nazis is actually surprisingly large. I forgot the exact number, as I am not good at numbers, but I remember being quite astonished by it.


....



Actually, from an evolutionary standpoint we are no further than the earliest homo sapiens, and prolly no further than Cro Magnon man.

...



I fully agree with that. The world has changed irrevocably, at least in our part of it. Therefore I don't go for the "oooh here come the nazis again" histrionics invoked when some skinheads are pictured sieg-heiling in a railway station, or destroy a jewish headstone on a cemetery. Mass travel and media have brought those thathave access to it together. These days it simply is no longer feasible to paint germans as evil hun baby eating cannibals, british as decadent corrupt colonialists, french as.... eh, well, OK, perhaps with the french we can
Unfortunately the developing world has not taken part of the progress of the last 50 years, and especially in Africa war continues to rage.

Oh well, I wish some of our japanese friends could be convinced to join the fun. Nanking..... eehhh, where is that????

Dolle Dolf

I appreciate that this appears weird, but given the whole blut und boten, sacred german soil, the worship of the woods, germanic mysticism, rune signs and all that, as soon as poor germans display a bit too much of love of nature and campfire singalongs the eyebrows of some folks will rise and in their thoughts visualize book burnings and mass marches under the night sky with torches as shown by Lena Riefenstahl in Triumph der Wille,
..... don't forget also that the former nazi prisoners and resistance people are a very loud voice, and they are rather paranoid, and given their almost sainted status are above critisism
As soon as someone even makes a joke that may not quite be PC as far as WWII goes, the newspapers are full of it the next day.
IT is also part of the national trait, wagging the index finger like a dutch reformed vicar

Dolle Dolf

SNAFU, JRT, Dolle Dolf, Osram, others,

Yes, the lady was meant to be a "cooling effect" somewhat like trying to break up a dogfight with a garden hose. Usually doesn't work if one has his teeth sunk in.

Osram, I downloaded the redhead, this one has escaped me, and is new to me. Might fit onto the Dornier, thanks again, and Aloha!



[This message has been edited by vadenstick (edited 02-05-2002).]

All,

I have received a very nice gift from one of our most experienced BoB pilots and I wanted to share it with you.

The link below will lead you to a wonderful piece of artwork by Jolly Roger Too, a prime contributor to HWH, giving us fine tales of air combat over England and much more. Thank you JR2.

I should also thank Sir Bader for helping me get it posted here. Bader, you da man!

The link has also been placed at the top of the first post in the thread.

Hope you like it.

http://flightsimmers.net/runway/parogers/HWH2.jpg


[This message has been edited by SNAFU (edited 02-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by SNAFU (edited 02-06-2002).]

Nice touch, JRT!

I noticed it is a "Designated Flame Free Zone!"

I was a bit busy with other stuff, including coding a bit .

Thank you all for your kind words. I especially enjoyed your warm words, zerosan. I saw in the other thread how knowledgable you are.



Actually I think in the 2. WW the blame is quite clear: Noone apart from the germans is to blame for the war in europe.

BTW, regarding WWI, I think the question of blame is not so important, since the people from all the nations were enthusiastic and wanted a new war to be able to prove themselves. My aunt still remembered 1914, IIRC she was 4 at the time. So, before WWI europe was a powder keg and it just needed a spark. You can argue whether the assasination was the spark (and one person is responsible for WWI), or whether that could have been contained etc etc, but IMHO the bad thing was that there was a powder keg in the first place.



I agree that the Hitler and the "nation" could not have acted if many germans had sharply oposed. Unfortunately, some small human traits, that one could even say endears humans to one, can have a devastating effect in a chaotic, violent time where things can easily topple that way or that. For example, humans are "herd animals", not "loners" (sorry, no dictionary here). If some strongly go in one direction and some follow, then most of the rest will follow as well. I am sure you have seen this behaviour. Normally it's fairly harmless. From an evolution standpoint it's quite clear to see why it was an advantage. In that situation it was disastrous. And, like I said the germans are especially obedient. Off course, the german trait to be especially thorough also made the catastrophy worse.



True. If you would think all germans of the time were swines, then you would be racist as well. IMO it is chance where you were born. I once read an interview with the germany expert of the BBC during the war. The interview was long afterwards. He said, when he meets a german, say in a train, that is of his age, he is careful at first. However, should he get to kno the person deeper and see they are ok, then he has no problems with them.



True.



Absolutely. Thank you.




Yes, unfortunately there are those as well in germany, and we need to watch them. But their number is fairly small (especially in the western part).


I think one should not read ones own messages. I wrote:



LOL.

Dolle wrote:



Some reasons are off course the same in the occupied terretories as in germany itself - fear of inprisonment or worse, fear to loose the work, not wanting to bother with politics, just trying to get on with the easiest way through life, swimming with the stream instead of against it etc.

BTW, my father was in several occupied countries and was most impressed by the dutch. He said that while they off course could not stop the germans by themselves, there were less collaborateurs and the dutch kept more of their dignity than others.

But off course each country has its good and bad citizens, it is "just" a matter of how many and which side the state tries to help.



Interesting thoughts!



Well, there was a large number of reasons you could be imprisoned, being against the nazis is just one of them, others are:

- being a jew (after all, many were germans)
- being a "Roma" (gipsy)
- being gay
- being a "normal" criminal
- Having a jew as girl/boy friend

etc.

Very nice! I also especially like the "flame free zone" .

Heres what happened....I swear.

In deference to that great and entertaining writer JRT, I am going to use this thread now for its intended purpose. That is because I am simply amazed that this game continues to throw delightful realisms at me of the type I have found in no other sim.

Last night I was going about my business, controlling RAF Fighter Command from Uxbridge (the surroundings do look suspiciously like my study, but I can assure you that in my mind at least, it IS Uxbridge). I have, like several other players, a rule on realism whereby I want the game as accurate as I can possibly make it, and that includes a 'one squadron, one pilot life' rule that means if I buy it in combat the campaign is over as far as flying is concerned.
Anyway, I am in a newish Convoy attack phase, and it is 22nd July. My chosen squadron this time is 43 at Tangmere. Nothing much happens in the morning period due to bad weather, until round about 1pm when a largish raid starts to build up, obviously aiming for the convoy east of the Isle of Wight. It looks to be about 100 or so comprising 87s, 109s and 110s. This, I think' looks interesting since I have not often seen this although it happened often in reality (109 & 110 escort together)
I have one squadron up over the convoy and three more 'at two minutes' so I get them up and bring two more to standby as a reserve.
43 is one of them, so I think, I'll get some combat here.
Still in 2D, I position my fighters as the raid forms and begins moving out. The beauty about the south coast is that you have more time to react to incoming, as indeed it was in reality. I bring 64 sqd down to the coast over Poling, 610 toward Beachy Head, 145 is already over the convoy with 30 minutes to spare and 43 is ordered to Poling also. after a minute or so I decide to get 601 up over Tangmere too.
Everything is looking good. The Spits are positioned to draw off the escort as they pass going west while 3 sqds of Hurris can hit the raid head on before its target. I like this strategy against detached escorts, the Spits are usually outnumbered but they can mostly hold their own and the Hurris can often deal with the bombers on their own terms. With what I think is time to spare, I make my revectoring adjustments, time in normal, and frag into Green 3 in 43 sqd.
I now search for the enemy, when my Sqd leader shouts his warning. I realise looking ahead that my timing was not quite as good as I believed, for ahead in the distance I can see the twisting and turning dots of aircraft that is a dogfight. The Spits must have only just engaged.
My sqd leader shouts his instructions, including 'friendlies to starboard' which must be 145 on our right. Indeed I can see them when I look over my shoulder.
Then I am in the middle of a huge dogfight, there is shouting like crazy over the RT, aircraft are everywhere and the noise as they pass (thanks Mr SB live for that reproduction of the RR Merlin and DB601)is startling as the volume is up. I come under attack briefly although I do not know what it was, only tracer flying past and a few bangs, but nothing serious I think. I am too confused (I do not use any form of target lock, except peripheral vision, just as the real pilots I must manually recognise, target and keep track of my enemies). In truth everything is happening too quickly, I am dodging this way and that and enemy fighters seem everywhere. I manage to get off a quick burst at a 110 and I see a few puffs of smoke but he has more latent energy
and disappears before I can get him back.
Then suddenly, I see Stukas below me to my left going in the opposite direction, about 6 or so. Their formation must have been broken up. I quickly come round, close the throttle a bit, yaw her round a bit with the rudder until one on the right is nearly in my sights. Beads of tracer come back at me as their rear gunners open up. Between us a Spit hurtles by in a half roll about 100 yds ahead and I am aware of a 110 breaking to the right above me, one of its engines streaming white smoke. (Thanks Mr P4 processor and Geforce2MX400 for the graphic reproduction with all but no stutter)
At about 150 yds I squeeze the trigger (Thanks Mr Saitek USB) and keep it held as I close in. The Stuka, taking hits swerves violently to the right and I close the throttle to avoid overshooting, drop the nose a bit, check over my shoulder, and swing in behind him. He noses over into a turning dive with me following, his rear gunner still firing. But this pilot is good. He throws the 87 all over the place, with me firing at every opportunity and still not getting anything but winging hits and the odd puff of smoke. We are down to 4000 ft now, his speed has built up and i've got about 1200 rounds left. I grit my teeth. With the reticle just above him I let go a long burst. Yes, Yes! My rounds strike home, there is a bang and a cloud of grey smoke, something spins backward nearly hitting my machine. I've got him. His dive begins to steepen and he starts to outpace me leaving a thin trail of smoke. There are only 184 rounds left in my magazines. I start to feel sorry for them. Get out,I think to myself, come on bail out.
But there are no parachutes. Instead, about 500 ft off the ground the machine explodes in mid air. The effects are excellent, pieces can be seen flying in all directions accompanied by fingers of red flame and parabolas of smoke. This, I have never witnessed in Bob before.
But strangly, I have no joy at this kill. Because, as this game so rudely reminds you from time to time, that is exactly what it is, a kill. It may only be an electronic kill figuratively, and the causualties might only be imaginary AI pilots and crew. But I can see the faces of real men in my mind. Like the ones we have all seen in photos, with brylcreemed hair and boyish smiles.
I am full of admiration for the pilot of that Ju87, artificial or otherwise. He handled the machine, slower, heavier, less manoverable and poorly armed in as faultless a way as possible. He presented the least possible target, caused me to expend almost all my ammunition, and almost got away.
I return to base, more humble now. As a pilot in this particular campaign, it is my first kill.
As a person, playing a simulation of real events, I am humbled beyond what I thought was possible from a small, silver plastic disc and a handbook.
Virtual or otherwise, what we do in this game is kill. We must not forget the respect due to those who could not press the 'back' button.

"And lo, who is the rider on the black horse. Fear ye, for he is the seventh, and with him rides death"

As my grandfather was betrayed by dutch collaborators (he was hiding jews) my family has always been less than impressed by the dutch attitude during the occupation. Indeed, the dutch both in absolute numbers and in percentage numbers delivered the highest numbers for the Waffen SS.

When I worked in germany (as a masseur in a 'kurort') I met many older germans and some of them would go 'Oh Holland, I love Holland, I was there during the war, we loved the food, we lived like kings!!!' then they would feel a bit embarrassed, feeling that their enthusiasm for the place and their fondness of the food might be a bit inappropriate given the circumstances

I also met a 'Spaetheimkehrer' who had been attached to the Wiking Waffen SS division who met many dutch SS volunteers. This was actually a very nice man, who actually liked the Russians more than the Americans. 'The Russian will share his last piece of bread with you' he would say. And he felt that as a people the Russians were much more cultured than the Americans. Go figure. War is a funny old thing.

Dolle Dolf

Folks,

OSRAM,DD:

I've really enjoyed reading your friendly discussions.

OSRAM, you say there are still a few in Germany who will not totally accept the NAZI defeat. A few malignant cells can, under the proper conditions, grow and even metastasize throughout the body to eventually threaten life. Yes, these people must be diligently watched.

SNAFU:

I am delighted that you have seen fit to post a link to my HWH tribute page. Thanks Sir Bader for assisting in getting it hosted.

SNAFU, as I told you, I feel that HWH and HWH continued are very special indeed. I feel that they are like a unique diary or book. A crazy, patchwork quilt-like book made up of stories by a cross section of BOB enthusiasts from all over the world. For this reason I feel they deserve to have a title page of sorts. A page that celebrates both Rowan's BOB and the spirit in which this long lived thread was begun by you as a "Flame Free" zone.

It was all your idea SNAFU and whatever happens from here on you should be very proud of what you started. It has certainly helped to keep me off the streets and out of trouble for months. SALUTE!

Zerosan2:

You honor me with your kind words and your fine story. Of coarse honesty requires that I admit that I have mixed emotions about it.

Mainly I enjoyed the read as I am sure have all who frequent here. Clearly, you have become immersed in the BOB experience. The one thing that kept nagging at me as I read, the idea that returned again and again to sorely bruise my grossly swollen ego was the obvious fact that you write in a style that is, for BOB, so much better than is mine.

I am a true masochist at heart I suppose, so I sincerely hope that this will be the first of many such well written stories about "What Happened" . Thank you, Zerosan "The Magnificent".

------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

[This message has been edited by Jolly Roger Too (edited 02-07-2002).]

Folks,

No people hated or feared the Germans (there is a strong correlation there I suspect) than the French. Yet there were many French collaborators. In fact, there were collaborators in all the occupied countries.

Good grief, there were NAZI sympathizers in the US and Britain. Lord HawHaw and Axis Sally were two individuals who blatantly and actively worked for the Axis cause.

On balance, there was also an organized resistance in those occupied countries. Once liberating forces drew near, one of the first thing on the retribution menu for these folks was to gather up all those nasty collaborators who had so recently annoyed them and wreck a terrible vengeance upon them. As they say in horse racing circles, what goes around eventually comes around.

There was so much filth and nastiness stirred up in that horrible war that I suspect it was splattered on folks in just about every country one way or another.

I am quite prepared however to lay the blame for starting the two great wars squarely at the feet of Germany. While there may be blood stains visible on the hands of many from those warring generations, I myself see none upon the hands of those who have come after them.

The world is in our hands now and soon it will be passed on to our children. We must learn from the mistakes of our fathers and their fathers and pass that vital information on to our children. Otherwise we too will be spattered with the blood of those who will die in the next great war.



------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

Folks,

Way, way, way OT:

I was just looking over part of my extensive collection of books. I picked out one of several that I have by an especially favorite author of mine.

It may be surprising for you to learn that this book had nothing whatever to do with flying or WW2. In fact, another of my favorite authors, Mark Twain, is reputed to have had nothing to do with either as well.

The title of the book in question? "Death in the Long Grass". I turned the pages slowly looking at the well drawn illustrations of big game and various African scenery. I once was a hunter and enjoyed the sport greatly. I still have several firearms in my collection and my son is an avid hunter today.

I have given up the sport. I don't care for killing anymore unless of coarse it is flaming a pesky 109 now and again. 109s being the exception, I never did kill unless I planned to eat what I shot.

Somehow hearing the odd bullet thither,zither past one's own ear now and then causes many to empathize a tiny bit more than average with the game animals, like deer, wild boar, turkey, bear, squirrel, rabbit and cattle. And so it was with me, I suppose.

OK, I was just kidding about the cattle. I put that in just to see if you were paying attention.

I still love to read about hunting. Particularly about so-called big game. The author whose book I was carefully scrutinizing was Peter Hathaway Capstick. A remarkable man who lead a remarkable life.

Starting out as a NY stock broker and ending up as one of the world's most renowned and successful authors. Between the two he was able to neatly sandwich in becoming a big game hunter, Safari leader extraordinary and even an African game warden. He has published tons of fascinating magazine articles, books and videos.

I love his humorous style of writing and enjoy his books for that as much if not more than for the subject matter. If you have an interest in such things and are not familiar with this author, I recommend him to you.

I believe he has passed on now. Does anyone here know what happened to him? A search on Google.com told me nothing. I have not seen any new books for some time now.

------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

JRT,

Thanks for the e-mail advertisement re the forthcoming (now past) story 'The Telegram'.

Another splendid story from the pen of the Master!

As for Old Dux entertaining Bader and SNAFU on his broad Derbyshire estate - I think it would be more true to say that we got into a state entertaining the Derbyshire broads!

Still making notes for my offering...