They were the brainwashed ones. Of course, the russians and the germans were locked in a to the death battle. The ideological struggles between the policies on both sides, and the accelerated cruelty on the EF made for fanatical combat. Prisoners did not do too well on either side. Then there is the bushido, too long to go into that here, but that explains a lot of the japanese behaviour and the ill treatment of their captives and conquered.




An anecdote, for which the 'FWIW' comment is appropriate. The fanaticism of the russians is understandable, given the odds and the nazi terror that they faced.




This is one of the never answered questions of WWII and the nazi era. My guess that it never truly will be answered.




So do I hehe.




Stupidity is relative. One cannot deny the 'achievements' of the nazis, and without the leadership of Hitler this likely would not have happened. Also, Goering may have degenerated into an obese painkiller addicted charicature, but the man was not a moron. Apparently, and I guess one needs tobe a legal expert to appreciate it, which I am not, he put forward quite a formidable defence of himself at the nueremburg trials.

[/B][/QUOTE]So, while the anti semitism helped them in some circles to win votes (At that time, anti semitism was quite wide spread, all over the world), it also hurt them immensly in the scientific community where there were many jews (like Einstein), many who had jews as friends and many who simply were able to think about things unemotionally and who due to things like this wanted to see nazi germany fall. From the people working on the a-bomb, some were german (like the head off the a-bomb design) and almost all knew or had worked in germany..[/B][/QUOTE]

The nazi empire and party was quite unsavoury even without the antisemitism.... and one has to keep in mind that even where antisemitism was rather widespread, I have read a particularly nasty little exercise by Henry Ford myself, having the industrial resources of a modern nation directed toward the destruction of jewry, indeed succesfully destroying the eastern european 'shtetl' culture, rather takes the mottled oyster.




Whenever you dashed well feel like it old chap! If all fails, turn on the MS word spell checker!




Quite, and prolly part of the 'heile welt' sort of celebration of what was truly German. In Holland, from where Y.S. hails, whenever the Wandervogel, no matter how innocent, start raving about the beauty of nature, the woods, the water and the like, the old folks used to get ever that bit apprehensive. This includes a bit of suspicion toward the german greenies, who sometimes appear a bit too close the the geramn 'Boden' hehe.




Vz Oskar Schindler, whose factory apparently did not produce a single working grenade after they were forced to quit making pots and pans.



This is a longstanding myth, that perhaps deserves further investigating. Certainly not all ukrainians are against russia at this time, and I find it rather questionable that there was mass support for the germans, even at an early stage. we have seen the pictures of people handing over flowers to the germans, but these kind of pictures have been shot in Holland and France also, and similarly when the liberating allies came by, flowers, and a bit more, were handed out also




Even earlier there was conflict within the german hierarchy about the treatmetn of the Poles. A certain Franck comes to mind....



Germany deserves praise for the unrelenting soul searching about the third reich. There were always lots of documentaries on german telly, which we could watch as we lived in the east of holland. ANd german literature is replete with the subject. This is a lot more than can be said of our erstwhile enemies in the far east. Nanking???? ehh.... yes, wasn't tthere a riot somewhere in the early part of the century??
I won't buy japanese consumer goods if I can help it. I don't have a problem with german goods. And germans are not the most obnoxious people when traveling abroad anymore either. This disctinction now truly goes to the french ;p



This to me is the question that won't go away. How could the nation with the highest rate of literacy, the highest amount of people going for higher education, the technological, scientific, industrial, artistic, cultural etc etc leading nation of europe go for national socialism.... I guess the anser is if it could happen in germany, given the right circumstances, it could happen anywhere.

FWIW,

Dolle Dolf

Folks,

Can one defend the indefensible? No. One can only observe, reason it out and learn from the mistakes. Given the same set of circumstances and with basic human nature unchanged perhaps it might even happen again. Somewhere.

I suppose that when you are up to your nasal septum in excrement most anything that looks like a quick way out seems reasonable and worth a try to you, given the alternative? Grasping at the proverbial straw may at times of extreme peril seem entirely logical, perhaps?

With no other way out of an impossible situation what else would most people do? Sometimes as with the post WW1 Germans there is even a choice. They chose between two evils, Communism and Nazism. The alternative to choosing at least one of these seemed to be anarchy and total collapse.

Also, I seem to remember that many things improved initially under the Nazi system. Crime virtually disappeared. There were jobs. Rampant inflation was checked. The volk loved all that.

Many Germans embraced Hitler and willingly took a big unhealthy bite from the NAZI carrot without even thinking twice about what they were giving up in personal freedoms. They took no note of the heavy stick poised over their pointy heads.

Yes, Germany was world renowned for their scientists, philosophers,scholars and writers. Many Germans were highly educated. This was not the Young Republicans we are talking about here. Books were burned and once Hitler was in power many of the so called leaders, intellectuals and the well educated were quickly rounded up and sent to concentration camps. Most, not all, of the others were afraid to speak out, fled the country or they suddenly became true believers.

Having said all this, and given perfect hindsight, it is difficult for me to understand just how Hitler went from a failed artist selling postcards on the street to supreme dictator of the German state.

Good grief, I'll shut up now, lets get back to BOB.



------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

This thread needs some new smiley faces!

Here it goes the campaign jornal.
Let me explain that this is just what I imagine the life of the RAF commander would be like.

Campaign Jornal-convoy RAF
RAF Commander Timdog ran for the RAF HQ. He slowly opened the doors and headed for the map room. As he walked to the room a man came running beside him. They walked to the room together and sat down. The intel commader spoke" Intell recently found that the Germans are preparing for an airwar. Their likely first target will be the convoys that bring the supplies to us."

" are there any convoys out right now?" Timdog asked.

"Yes" Said the Intell commander. He picked up a ship model and placed it on the gigantic map before them." This is the aproximet location of the convoy"

" Well put up 12 patrols around it fast" Timdog ordered.

"Yes sir"

Timdog walke dout of the room and into the communications room.

Suddenly one of the ansewers called to him" A bomber has been sighted near the convoy. Should we intercept?" Yes intercept with 3 hurricanes.

43 squadren

" Ok chaps lets find that bomber"
3 hurris take off into the sky and head for the convoy. As they arrive they spot a bomber over the convoy. " Bandit" I call. " saftey catches off" I throttle to 100 percent and head for the bomber. As I come close I fire a 3 second burst. I was rewarded with sparks on his left engine.

My two winnies attack and I roll hard left. As I see the bomber again I head for it desperate to attack. I open fire and hit his left engine until it smokes. I flick the rudder right and hotlead pours into his fueslage. His right engine smokes and I continue to fire. He finnaly drops down and enters a spin.

I return home and land.

Nice one Timdog

Folks,

Vadenstick:

You are always there at the right time with just the right idea. I expected someone in a grass skirt though.

BTW, you've often mentioned missing the beautiful Rockies. I'm sure that you are aware that your home of Hawaii has the tallest mountain in the world. Taller in fact than Everest and by quite a lot.

Of coarse the majority of it is under water.

Timdog:

Thank you for posting an interesting story. Like a combat report, it was brief clearly crafted and straight to the point. We now have two recent posts, yours and mine. If some others will now follow our lead, this thread may have some life left in it after all.

Otherwise, like a fatally wounded HE111 falling like a leaf into the Channel, HWH and HWH continued may slowly drift down the page to disappear forever into the growing archives of SimHQ history.

[As if daring anyone to complain, and by doing so post a few needed lines, he wrote the above in his most melodramatic fashion. One that turned even his own gills a little green]



------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

I am compelled to put down here something that I am studying, part of John Keegans history of warfare, refering to studies made of hostilities between primitive tribes, namely the Maring Tribe of Highland New Guinea:
"The timing of Maring warfare always coincided with the readiness of a tribe to offer the necessary thank-offering to their ancestor spirits for assistance in the fight. Such thank-offerings took the form of killing and eating mature pigs in the ratio of one for each tribe member. Since it takes about 10 years to raise and fatten such a number of pigs, fights seemed only to occur every 10 years. And strangly, it was only toward the end of each 10 year period that neighbouring tribes began to offer each other the slights and injuries which were the occasion of such battles.
In any event, to undertake battle without the means of thanking ancestors was to court defeat; on the other hand, to have a surplus of pigs without the excuse to eat them was to lose the point of fattening them in the first place.....It might be thought that the Maring fought out of habit rather than for any reason that anthropological theory can advance".
On actual warfare itself;
"Each morning when there was to be fighting, the able bodied men assembled near their hamlets and went en-masse to the fight ground for the days combat while the women remained behind to attend to routine gardening and domestic duties. The men themselves did not fight daily during the period of warfare. When it rained both sides stayed at home, and by mutual agreement, all combatants sometimes took the day off to repaint their shields, attend ceremonies or simply to rest. There could be intervals as long as three weeks during which hostilities were suspended while the men worked at making new gardens".
Once I stopped laughing, I began to wonder what was so primitive about that. Now, where are the pigs....

Zerosan the Magnificent

"Now if you Americans don't jolly well put that tea back on this boat, we'll be forced to hurl abuse at you across a field for 3 weeks and then you'll have to give us all your pigs. Don't say we didn't warn you"

i have restarted my campaign.

Campaign Jornal Convoy RAF

As RAF Commander Timdog looked out over the cliffs of Dover, A beer bottle in his hand, he began to think if the world would ever become peaceful. He had entered into the bloody deed that was WWII. He had been put as Commander of Fighter Command. He sipped the beer and looked at a ship as it prepared to dock.

He was startled as a car pulled up near him. A man got out and ran to him. "Good morning commander. I have bad news. The Germans have declared war against Britain."

" What?!"said Timdog.

"They have began something called Operation Sealion." said the man.

" Take me to fighter Command"

" Yes commander"

The two men get in the car and drive away. The phone in the car rang and Timdog picked it up." Commader we have a reconn bomber near a convoy"

" intercept with 3 hurricanes" Said Timdog

" Yes Sir"

As they drive back the commander looked at the farms and thought that this may be the last time he saw them.

Tangemere Airfield.

" Lets get some breakfast" said 43 leader Timdog. Before they could walk away a phone rang. Timdog picked it up. " We need 3 of you to scramble against a recon bomber"

Timdog picked out 2 other men and they ran to their Hurris. Start the engine. Flaps down. Throttle 100%. Trim up. Gear up. Flaps up.

Timdog confirmed the vector to the bomber and he followed it. As he neared a cloud layer he could see the wings of a bomber. '" Bandit ahead. Safetey catchs off." I throttle to th ebomber and begin to fire. Yes hits. I consentrate on his left wing till it breaks off and falls down. I return home using rudder for course adjustment. I land and finally have some breaqkfast.

Folks,

Zerosan2:

LOL. It was Indians, mate, who watered down all that expensively taxed tea belonging to George number 3. Didn't you see all the disguises, er...I mean buckskins, feathers and warpaint?

IMHO Mr. Keegan is a superb author and historian. I have read his "The Face of Battle" many times. If men were not so deadly to each other at times we surely would make the halls of Valhalla ring with laughter at our folly and utter stupidity.

I have seen those tribes of which you speak in action on TV and in some ways it does seem a more "civilized" way of waging battle. If battles must be fought at all.

So I think was the "our flaming champion meets your flaming champion" idea that gained much favor for a time. Two men, the best each warring side could muster fought to the death to determine the ultimate outcome of the whole conflict. It saved lives, gallons of blood, sweat and much R&D on weapons development expense.

Then one day someone cupped his tender hands over his pursed lips, tongue firmly in cheek and with fingers crossed, shouted from the safety of their battlements, "our big guy can thoroughly trounce your big guy". The other side shouted back a clever retort like " Oh, yeah,right then."

Shortly after that formal "throwing down of the gauntlet" ceremony a single combat was fought between two champions and to the death. All hell broke loose even before the dead guy could be placed six feet under because the losing side brashly reneged on the outcome. So much for "civilized warfare".

Chess is said to have been developed to replace real battle. Can you even imagine an older Bobby Fisher and a youngish Gary Kasparov facing off to decide the end of the cold war? How about Kasparov in a serious rematch against IBM's "Big Blue" chess computer. Now that would be a new twist.

------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

[This message has been edited by Jolly Roger Too (edited 02-03-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Jolly Roger Too (edited 02-03-2002).]

I just love to laugh. JR2, not only are your writings a pleasure, your sense of humour is almost on a par with us offbeat Brits. We love to laugh at ourselves, something we don't often see in other nations (except perhaps the French for whom we are always prepared to make an exception).

Zerosan the Magnificent

Folks,

Zerosan2:

A sense of humor almost on a par with you chaps? I beg you Sir, allow me to differ.

My friend, one cannot even exist in this country of 30 mile traffic jams, $10,000 fender benders, 3 hour waits at airports, resultant road rage, lousy customer service, and the best politicians money can buy without possessing the most perfect sense of humor in the world.

You mention the French have a good sense of the ridiculous. Ahh, but mes ami, like us Americans, the Frogs, sorry, the dear French do have so very much to laugh at themselves about, now don't they?

I personally have no difficulty whatsoever laughing at myself. I pass a mirror several times each day and pause a moment just to practice. And believe me, I have had much practice of late.

I even enjoy making the odd mistake now and again as my wife and friends derive so very much pleasure pointing them out to me.

------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

[This message has been edited by Jolly Roger Too (edited 02-03-2002).]

A belly laugh a day, that's all I ask!

Folks,

The Telegram

Wing leaders SNAFU, Bader and Old Dux stood in silent disbelief. They were gazing down upon a crumpled sheet of beige paper where it lay on an old walnut desk. Around it lay several other items that had arrived at the same time in a separate parcel.

There was a gold pocket watch that was more like a locket lying open. Inside you could make out a slightly tarnished photo of a pretty young woman. There were two other photos. One was of a pilot in flight dress. The other was of a man in a blue business suit. Next to these lay an aviator's watch and two bone-white dice made of ivory.

These three brave men, all heroes of the Battle of Britain, were on much deserved leave. Bader and SNAFU were the guests of Old Dux on his broad family estate in Derbyshire.

You would have thought the piece of paper were a poisonous snake the way each man seemed to be afraid to pick it up; yet none could pull their eyes from it.

The subject of their concentrated gaze was a telegram from the war department confirming what they already suspected. One of their own would not be coming back.

Meanwhile, somewhere between reality and that misty, gray area that we all suspect is just beyond our mortal perception, a meeting is taking place between two men. You need not know their names. They might be anyone.

Hello friend. I am happy to meet you. You seem a bit bewildered. Pull up a cloud and let’s set a spell to watch that beautiful sunset. I see that you are a pilot like me. You are no stranger to the beauty of the sky then? I thought not. No one appreciates the beauty of this world better than an aviator does. We see so much of it and all at one time.

Look over there, something is just entering the setting orb of the sun. Do you see that speck? It is turning toward us and growing larger now by the second. Hmmm. It seems to be a flight of aircraft. Bombers, I think, from the formation. Thank you, my eyesight has always been exceptional. I see you’re a fighter pilot. Your eyesight must be extraordinary as well?

Well, in fact it is a large flight of bombers. I’d say they are HE111s and from the look of them they have been in quite a scrap. Look there, several are trailing smoke. Another seems to be losing altitude fast. I don’t think that one will make it to France, do you? Yes, the sound is rather loud now; they are coming abreast of us. We’ll have to shout. What’s that? No, I don’t think they see us.

Yes, I saw that smoking straggler go in. That was quite a splash wasn’t it? Parachutes? I count four. Only four.

Let’s move a bit. The clouds are bunching up and we will see better over there. Now, isn’t that better? My friend you are crying. Why are you so sad? Do not worry. Those fellows will be all right. Take my word for it. For them as for us the worst is over, I assure you.

Notice how the setting sun glints on the bomber’s tails and turns their canopies to gold. Most of them are going to make it home tonight. Most of their attackers are safe as well. The bombers were overwhelmed and did little damage at all. How do I know all this? Frankly, I’m not sure. I simply know it.

Well, that’s about it. The show’s over and it’s time for us to leave this place. Walk with me into that bright light, my fair-haired young friend, and tell me how you won your Iron Cross. Yes, that is the DFC on my tunic. How kind it is of you to notice.

What light you ask? Quite right, the sun has set now, but that is not the light of which I speak. Just close you eyes now and you will see it.

THE END



------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

All,

Timdog, your two accounts of life as an RAF leader were both very good. They give a glimpse of sorts to what it may have been like to be an RAF commander during those days. Nice job on that bomber too. Ripped his wing right off did ya, well that is good shootin in any man's air force young man. Well done, Well done indeed.

JR2, Quite a stirring tale you last told. Leave it to you to take us for a short cloud tour to hear from a few of the few as well as one from the other side who have left the war and life behind. It would honestly never have occured to me to write about such a thing but for you it flows like melted butter. A bold and successful peice. Thanks.

I would not be too concerned with the limited stories being posted to HWH continued lately. I for one have had many pressing tugs on my free time. Rest assured that I think there are still unlimited accounts left to write and I will surely contribute when time allows. Of course I have spent most of my little recent free time setting up, tweaking and playing on my new rig. To get everything set up the way you want it takes a great deal of time and like most, I have a limited amount of it. I am sure we shall soon be graced with wonderful words from Sir Bader and others as well. As long as we are playing it (and we will be) the game will see to that.






[This message has been edited by SNAFU (edited 02-04-2002).]

Did I actually see a "babe" post here. YIKES!

Folks,

SNAFU:

Thanks for the encouraging words. I hope that you are correct. If so, we all still have much to look forward to. If not, Timdog and I may be overwhelmed, and I am creatively just a bit pooped. I heard someone shout "Thank goodness, he's stopped writing that mess."

It is a bit like flapping one's arms in a desperate attempt to keep a wingless Spitfire aloft when we are left posting alone for long periods like this. Not that I mind the writing. I miss the reading.

I do not wish or intend for this to ever become a JRT thread. No one would put up with that including myself and the readers would stay away in droves.

Yes, I agree, we are all very busy and have so many other things more important on our plates. I certainly do. That is precisely why over 750 posts on this extended thread is so astounding, isn't it? BOB is truly inspiring. I for one am always happy to step into the breech now and again and pump in an extra story or two to keep things going and to keep HWH from drifting off the page. I do love to write.

Try as I might, I cannot bring the variety of stories and the energy of many other writing styles that I suspect were so appreciated by our readers in the past. And heck, as I said, I love to read those stories myself. I've already read my own stuff and frankly I do not care much for it much myself. Ok, that statement just planted me firmly with the majority, didn't it?

SNAFU has started something special here. We can easily reach 1000 posts and beyond if interest and participation does not wane. I suspect that HWH is getting a bit old for all of us now. Yet BOB has not lost its luster so there is, as you point out, hope.

Folks must have grown tired of reading my crude stories day after day. What we need is some exciting new talent posting here like young Timdog. We need them to come along and give us old hands a break once in a while and to keep the interest and momentum going. Those who post also read.

I have all my fingers crossed friends, however, as you may well imagine, it is very, very difficult to type this way.

------------------
"Blessed are they who expect nothing.
For they will not be disappointed." - Edmund Qwenn, "The Trouble with Harry"

[This message has been edited by Jolly Roger Too (edited 02-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Jolly Roger Too (edited 02-04-2002).]

Sorry, no story .

Hello JRT, old friend.

Let me reiterate that IMO it is a good thing if a story makes you think.

I am sorry that I obviously killed that story of yours through my clumsyness with (english) words.

It is clear that war throws up the worst of the moral dilemas and questions and it seems
to me that many ethical standards are just standards and really strange once you think about them.


---oooOOOooo---

There are many questions.

Were people in germany that saw what is happening and did not try to elongate the war traitors?
Was not Hitler the biggest traitor of the german people?
Why is it bad to shoot at a parachuting pilot that will come tomorrow and try to kill you and others, but good to bomb defenseless women that work in weapons factories? Why is it good to lay out mines and then, when the enemy comes while you are still there, show him the way out so that he will not be killed?
I you do something that has a tiny, say 1/1000 000 chance of starting of huge war that might have 1000 000 dead, then is that as bad as killing one person? Is it different if you do it (say, produce a weapon) to feed yourself and your family or whether you do it as a hobby or as a matter of pride? If the other side does not abide by the geneva conventions, should you? Do you have to? In a war, you normally only know the propaganda of your own side. Do you trust it as there is no alternative?
Do you say that it is the job of politicians to decide and that you will follow? Regardless of the order? Where is the limit?
If you have a gun and someone seems to attack you and your fear loosing your gun if you don't shoot him, do you?

Before my time, legal maturity (don't know the proper word) in Germany was 21. A teacher of mine told me that he was a soldier (after WWII) and commanded 5 people and in war could have decided their fate. But he was too young to do a contract.

Some of these questions probably have an easy answer, but IMHO most do not.

I do not want to attack anyone here. I do not believe in the nazi idea of "SippenHaft" that you are responsible for what other people of your family or even people do. IMO you are only responsible for what you do and say yourself. My father went through one of the most horrible things you can imagine by being in Dresden at the wrong time.
Without luck, he would not have survived. Still, he was never angry at the allied, he always said that coventry was beforehand.


---oooOOOooo---

You asked how the Germans could choose Hitler. This is off course the most important answer everyone asks himself when starting to look into this dark period of time.

This is indeed surprising looking back and was surprising to many even at the time; My father told me that before the 3. Reich he thought these things impossible and thought that in a civilised country like Germany this is not possible.

There are many reasons for the rise of Hitler. One thing you have to see is that he tried in vain to get to power for a long time and only succeeded as all the circumstances were right for it.

Even, 1933, the majority of Germany did not want him. IIRC, there were
three elections shortly following each other, because the governments
could not govern. So, many people thought, "rather than voting for
xyz, who have failed, lets try Hitler, I don't like him, but his is
the only major party we have not tried yet (apart from communists)". Also, with the severe fighting (inclusive violence) between the parties and the huge number of parties, people were polarized and did not want any more to vote for "middle of the road parties". Also, if you are (or think you are) at the very bottom, then you will much easier "experiment" with a extreme party than if you think "everything is great, lets not rock the boat".

Off course there were also those that were convinced, maybe because they wanted their pride back, because they believed
in the pseudo darwinism etc

And people felt they were at the very bottom. There were approx. 10% job less, and in that time that was totally different to today. You had to fight for your bread. After loosing the first world war, the hurt pride was very dangerous. Also, the versaille treaty had very high and bad financial punishments against Germany. AFAIK, the french General Foch predicted
at the treaty that it would lead to a war 30 years later. Well, he was wrong, it was 31 years :-/.

Hitler was a modern politician in the way that he promised people what they wanted to hear. Also, he did not pay much attention to legal stuff (like the treaty), moral dilemas, or to any results his actions could have. He did not care much and was very brazen. Many Germans that saw no chance how they could get out of their work by honest work (they did not get work, if they did the main profits went to the victory states, or at least, that's what they thought). So, they were prepared to gamble. And off course, many of the early "victories" for Hitler were gambles (like going into the Rhineland when he had no chance to defend himself). Also, Hitler must have been an orator that impressed the people at the time, he invested quite a lot of time over 10 or 20 years to perfect this. While this is common practice today, AFAIK it was not at the time.

Hitler himself was IMHO not very intelligent, he was lead by his feelings, which off course is ok for an orator, but not to plan a propaganda strategy. BTW, propaganda at the time was simply the normal German word for public relations, so if you went from house to house selling stuff, you did "propaganda". Anyway, IMHO the only really intelligent person among all the very top rank nazis ways Goebbels, the later propaganda minister.

Also, some industry bosses helped him. Some simply helped every party so that whoever came to power would owe them. Yes, *some* things why Hitler came to power are valid today as well. Others, including other politicians, severly underestimating him, thought they could pact with Hitler and then politically get rid off him.

Anyway, even in the 3. election, still "only" about 30% voted for him. But, when many small aprties are around, that is a lot. Even so Hindenburg, the president, did not want Hitler, there was no possible combination of coalition partners, that did not include Hitler and that had not been tried before.

So, there was a coalition with Hitler at the top (his was the largest of the coalition parties). He fairly quickly got rid of the other politicians (instead of they of him) and got the majority in the parliament and was able to democratically vote democracy away.

Why did not the Germans object? Well, again there are lots of reasons:
Like today, many people did not care (much) for politics. So, even if they heard about a scandal, they might say "that's bad" and then go on with their lives. Even if you are interested, but all the media is "unified", it does not help you that much. Sometimes, the news people are dumb and there is a contradiction in itself, but normally you can either believe or disbelieve what they say, but can not check it.
If you are oposed, either the nazis will very quickly have killed you or their terror is so good that you are afraid to do anything. If you are stupid enough to warn other people of the nazis, then you will be gone quite quickly. Off course, typical german obedience helped as well, as it did later on.

About 1933, near where my father lived in Berlin, there was a well known communist. He dissappeared into a concentration camp quite quickly. Then, suddenly, he reappeared, a mere ghost of himself, very ill. He died two weeks later. My father thinks the nazis did this on purpose to show people what will happen to anyone that oposes. This went so far, that my father did not speak with his parents about political stuff, in fear they might inadvertendly say something to outsiders.

So, this regime was built on fear and lies and IMO people knew this. They knew what happens to people swimming against the stream and they knew what they were supposed to say to stay out of trouble. At the same time, there was a huge economical recovery. By taking loans he never had to pay back because of the war and generally gambling on the war, Hitler was able to give work to more or less everyone. People produced everyday needs, weapons, Autobahns (used for the war later), etc. I grew up in Hannover. Although a 500 000 people city, the forrest and a large lake go almost right into the centrum. On one end of the lake you can bath, you can jog around it if you are a good jogger, there are boats, a "promenade", restaurants at the beach etc. One day I came across a picture showing how during the 3. Reich the people dug out the lake by hand ! That was the way Hitler created jobs.
When we nowadays speak about financial things, it is clear that everyone has a car and computer etc, it's just a matter of how good and people whine if they can not play the newest game without stutter - on full settings of course, everything else would be below their level . At the time it was a matter of feeding the kids and paying the doctor and survival. So, Hitler, in spite of reducing democracy got probably more popular, not less. Also, the terror regime also meant it was very "quiet". The street fights between political parties stopped, robberies etc went back. Also, national pride was a big factor. You only need to look at *some* reactions to the WTC attacks, that did not weep about the victims, but about the hurt pride to see how big a factor this can be. First, the economic rise gave pride and later on the military adventures like the rhineland etc.

Hitler had a knack at seemingly giving the people what they want and didn't have beforehand, but use it for war. For example, there was the peoples car, the VolksWagen, that many looked forward to, worked for and paid for. In this situation, people are happy and work much and do not think about politics and pay the cars that will be used for war. With my aviation interest, who knows whether I would have been a member of the "Flieger HJ"? For some work you could fly there for free.

Still, it is surprising that he was able to start a war. After all, after one of the worst wars (if you can compare wars), the germans were definitely of the opinion "never again". I have utterly horrifying pictures that my grandad, an artist did of his experiences in WWI. Still, the same man let himself bend so much by the daily propaganda that he went along with what Hitler did.

Off course, the biggest popularity was for Hitler after France fell with a speed that surprised everyone, including the generals and Hitler himself. He looked like a half god to some after achieving in a few weeks with relatively (compared to WWI) little bloodshed what had been attempted by the best German generals for years in the first WW. Hitler gave a playground to thugs and sadists first in the street fighting, themn in the concentration camps and in the war. But he also tried to get the idealistic people by telling them that Germany is everything and above else and that the most idealistic thing one can do is to help other persons and disregard oneself.

I hope this all does not seem like I want to excuse the Germans of the time. I think there were some people who worked against the dark age, more who really liked to rob other countries by force, but by far the majority was the people that went along and did what they were supposed to do. IMHO it was this group that, by their sheer numbers, was the most crucial for Hitler to keep his power through all those years.

If you want to learn from an event, then IMHO you have to understand and explain it.

IMHO the people at the time could have known what will happen (and some did). If they did not, then it is either because they did not try to (for ex., because they were apolitical) or because they did not want to. While I have not read "Mein Kampf" myself, I have heard repeatedly, that in it, Hitler quite openly describes most things that will happen and his inhumane ideology.

---oooOOOooo---

I am sorry for the long, dry, text. As a thanks for reading until here and as
a penant I promise there will be a real "HWH" story from me (although I do not promise when) .

Ahh Commander Timdog, I see that you are obviously aware of the customs of this grand old country of ours

Zerosan2

Sorry, another one of those posts .

Like Dolle writes, we should start this with a "FWIW".

Dolle wrote:


I think Hitler got most of the things he got by being brazen and by being quite good at "selling himself". Regarding Goering you are probably right, that his painkilling addiction changed him during the war years (and before). He may have been quite sharp while defending himself after the war. But at the same time, in the prison he supposedly said "it was all worth it, I had 14 great years". If you contrast this to his telling his pilots off for being not courageous enough when they were in fact, to (in their eyes) save germany, flying against huge odds and signing papers that they have to ram if they can not bring down the bomber in any other way, then then that is ethically one of the lowest things I have ever heard.

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The nazi empire and party was quite unsavoury even without the antisemitism

Absolutely true.

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In Holland, from where Y.S. hails, whenever the Wandervogel, no matter how innocent, start raving about the beauty of nature, the woods, the water and the like, the old folks used to get ever that bit apprehensive. This includes a bit of suspicion toward the german greenies, who sometimes appear a bit too close the the geramn 'Boden' hehe.

That surprises me. Keep in mind the nazis closed down "WanderVogel", "Pfadfinder" etc. IMO the greens are probably the political party that is farthest from the nazis, I think parties left of it are closer to nazis in the socialist aspect (I sometimes think the political spectrum is like an "u" or like an almost closed ring).

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quote:
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Also, the mentality of the Nazis towards the "russians" also was very important.
The people from the ucrain welcomed the Germans as liberators. The German attitude
changed that fast, made them first unwilling to help and then partisans, making logistics to
the russian front very difficult. .
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This is a longstanding myth, that perhaps deserves further investigating. Certainly not all ukrainians are against russia at this time, and I find it rather questionable that there was mass support for the germans,

Really? Interesting. I have read it quite often. Also, it is known that Stalin governed with iron fist, like Hitler did. But AFAIK, he suppressed the people of whole regions. So, with the ucrainians knowing about Stalin, but not knowing about Hitler, I find the stories believable. But off course I do not know myself and also have not spoken to anyone that does.

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Germany deserves praise for the unrelenting soul searching about the third reich.

Thank you. Off course it would have been better if nothing had happened that needed soul searching, but it did.

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This to me is the question that won't go away. How could the nation with the highest rate of literacy, the highest amount of people going for higher education, the technological, scientific, industrial, artistic, cultural etc etc leading nation of europe go for national socialism.... I guess the anser is if it could happen in germany, given the right circumstances, it could happen anywhere.

I have partly answered that in my other long post. Also, I think that at least the scientific and literary circles oposed Hitler more than other circles and several left the country. Of the scientists that did not leave the country, quite a lot did "passive" sabotage by not working in the direction they should and by not giving
out ideas.

For example, I think that Heisenberg, the boss of the german atomic project, sabotaged it.

My father worked on the V2. But some ideas that he had, he told no one. He did measurements people told him to do and did not fake them etc, so in this direction he did nothing that could be dangerous. Actually I think he was not even so proud of this like for some other things he did that were maybe much less important, but much more dangerous. One thing he was really proud of actually involved a dutch peron. He was there to work together with a scientist, who was totally naive in politcal things. He simply told everyone what he thought, which off course was more than dangerous in occupied europe. Although my father was quite courageuos, he was afraid to warn this collegue out of fear the dutch in his naivety would tell someone else about the nice german that warned him about the nazis . In the end , he found out that the wife was a bit more clearly thinking in political things and warned her to warn him. I think he was still quite afraid what might come out.

This shows what it must have been like to live in a terror state.

Even of the scientists, too many colaborated. For example, my mother was IMHO a "Mitläufer" who believed almost all of what was told her. In the war she was in parachute design.

I think even engineers reacted differently to nazism than scientists. AFAIK almost all helped the nazis as much as they could. Certainly the germans as a whole did not put up a fight against nazism or against the war. Also, Hitler missused some of science to help him get into peoples minds. Most off all, he missused the theory of Darwin and survival of the fittest and used it on people.

To be technologically advanced does not mean that you are emotionally or ethically advanced. IMHO evolution is so slow that the people themselves, disregarding the education are much the same as, say at roman times. So, if you brainwash them by telling them the same cr*p over and over, most will start to believe it, especially if thgere are reasons so they want to believe it.

What hopefully has changed since the 3.reich is things like the internet, better radio, TV, Fax etc that can help people in opressed countries to form their own ideas.



[This message has been edited by Osram (edited 02-04-2002).]