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#4440294 - 09/22/18 07:31 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Hey gents, didn't want to start a fight. Read once on some other forum never to ask fm questions... now I see why smile

Never the less I believe adults can compare fms from different sims and stating which they prefer and why without hurt feelings. If one feels more accurate/realistic/fun or whatever to one person and another sees it different great! A matter of taste! That should not be source of conflict...

And to real life pilots telling "all sims are wrong so I don't care for fm as long as it's OKish and the rest of the game is great!" - valid point of view. Mine is different - I don't know how flying a real plane is and most likely never will. So the more a game makes me feel I'm flying the better - even if it's still far from the real thing.
I on the other was platoon leader in the mechanized infantry. I can tell you any game trying to simulate being part of a military unit, leading men in a combat situation, feeling the fatigue of ongoing military operation or simply shooting a gun fails just as much if not worse than any flightsim. That doesn't mean of course that a good try can't be enjoyable as a game.

However those posts that actually tried to answer my questions helped a lot - thank you very much. I now have a better idea what to expect and I'm less excited than before but still enough to give it a try next month. I'd rather go into a new game with a realistic expectations than being disappointed. Looking forward to the experience.

#4440297 - 09/22/18 07:55 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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The first rule of FM Club is: You do not talk about FM Club.
The second rule of FM Club is: You do not talk about FM Club yep

No in all seriousness pal,go with your gut feeling. Other sims may have a "better" (a subjective word) feeling of flight but the Ai and campaign in some of the other sims are woeful IMO.
This is just the start and already the AI here is incredible,the campaign is excellent and i believe will only get better and better when more craft\phases become available.
I think the point youv,e made regarding You being a platoon leader is what pilots are trying to make pal..It.s "Never" going to be the same. But as long has it,s enjoyable then great

Anyway take care
Best Regards
Adger


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4440302 - 09/22/18 08:19 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Eisenfaust, glad to hear you will give it a go! Look forward to hearing your after action report.


Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from either end.
BOC Member since....I can't remember!
#4440316 - 09/22/18 09:21 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Originally Posted by Eisenfaust
Hey gents, didn't want to start a fight. Read once on some other forum never to ask fm questions... now I see why smile


FM's, comparisons, "Can the P-51 kill tanks by bouncing .50 caliber rounds off of a road surface and penetrating the underside?" These are the cans of worms ye shall never open on a forum.


Let's pretend I got the BWOC badge to embed here.
#4440325 - 09/22/18 10:08 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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High over the Front
Everyone is an expert.

#4440328 - 09/22/18 10:30 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted by DukeIronHand
Everyone is an expert.


Indeed.

#4440363 - 09/23/18 02:57 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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So I decided to compare a couple of sims to see if I agree with myself. ( I often don't...) So I loaded back up IL2 Cliffs of Dover to give it a whirl. Now, see, I have had CLoD for years but it never stays on my hard drive because...well, for me, there is nothing really to do. It's very similar to Rise of Flight, which I really wanted to like, but again, is not on my hard drive. CLoD has two canned campaigns and a handful of missions that are not very easy to modify. Basically, the only way I could make a comparison video was to find a mission in CLoD that already existed and then I was able to easily reproduce the key elements of it in WOTR. So I have a link to the private video, I don't want people to stumble on it without going through this thread. I believe the link will work, let me know if it doesn't, I've never done a video this way before...

https://youtu.be/hj_jq1D7LB0

Google link:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uc84MaeFLqFz1r_TaZ9dblMu77p7ggHO

Thoughts:
Graphics: CLoD wins, but not by as much as I would have thought as I went back to it. There's obviously a lot more animated on the plane, more on that in a bit. Still, the WOTR cockpits are nice and clean and I don't seem to miss what's not there when I am flying it. I think individual ground objects in CLoD don't have that much more detail to them, but draw distance is much greater. Surprisingly, there was still some cloud pop in. There are definitely some shader work and effects that really make the CLoD graphics "pop" over WOTR and I am wondering if DX11 ever shows up in WOTR, how much that lead will be cut. Again though, WOTR show improvement over WOFF with regards to explosions and tracers and damage modelling (visually) and I like the improvements.

Flight Experience: I am not a pilot but I have flown commercially a lot and flown many flight sims, so I can only speak from those limited experiences. I was able to get around in both sims, although it took me a bunch of missions in each to get the feel for them as I am not really all that familiar with engine management and all the ins and outs that go with it. There's a lot more feedback from CLoD in terms of shakes and shudders and whatnot than there is in WOTR (such as the wind rushing through your ears when the canopy is open, Pol!) to warn you of impending doom, and WOTR is more forgiving of pilot error absent those feedback mechanisms. Overall the CLoD flight model was "bouncier" and the WOTR was natively smoother, but in both cases the aircraft did what I expected them to do. Increase throttle, go up, stick left, go left etc. It's easier to seize the engine in CLoD through rough use, and I haven't seen how that is modeled in WOTR (if it is). The clickable cockpit in CLoD is nice if you forget the key to press, but the shortcuts in WOTR seem more granular. I found myself having to go to the clickable cockpit in CLoD to get the settings I wanted sometimes. I hope that the engine management can be dialed in a little more in WOTR as I find it a fun thing to fiddle with, even as I am swearing at the monitor in fury as I go down with a cooked engine... The AI seemed reasonable in both (um, ignore my wingman who just had to stay in formation in CLoD), although they were pretty limited engagements to be sure. OBD has a good track record with me for creating interesting AI that is much more challenging than the standard, especially with their tendency to team up on you and then break for home when things go south. There are clearly multiple systems that can be damaged in both, as seen by the video. On the WOTR section, I sustained early rudder damage that made lining up the shots ( and safely ditching) quite a challenge. Obviously, the cracked windscreen in CLoD flight offered a different kind of challenge...

Gameplay Experience: This is pretty much where I get off. There's just not much for me to do in CLoD and much like RoF, I'm sure it will fall off my hard drive in a few weeks. I just am not interested in short on-line skirmishes and I don't have a good schedule for larger co-ordinated multiplayer engagements. Now, if team fusion whips up a good semi-dynamic campaign, I'll plop down my cash and be thrilled as Lou Rawls fans at a Lou Rawls concert, but as it currently stands, WOTR is where it is for me. I can just jump into my pilot, take off, shoot stuff and try to make it through the war, knowing that every engagement will be different and every career will be like a new game. As OBD adds new planes and new phases, I look forward to a lot of fun and hopefully even better graphics and flight models!

I don't know if that helped at all, it was interesting to try them both out side be side... If you are not as interested as I am in the long term career mode, maybe one of the other offerings will have what you want. I of course want everything, and with chocolate ice cream...

Last edited by Rick_Rawlings; 09/23/18 02:12 PM.
#4440387 - 09/23/18 09:32 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Thank you Rick - very interesting insights! Unfortunately the video doesn't work (or I'm doing it wrong). I would like to watch it!

CLOD doesn't offer much for the SP guy - very true. There are some usermade missions and campaigns and a kind of dynamic thing by enlightened florist - but nothing comparable to what wotr seems to offer. There was a third party developer offering lots of well made scripted campaigns that have a good reputation but his side seems to be down and I only got a demo - but they seemed to be quite enjoyable. No Idea where to get them now though.

That's why I'm looking for alternatives smile

#4440389 - 09/23/18 10:15 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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The video isn't available Rick.

#4440393 - 09/23/18 11:09 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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His post sums up the long and the short of it for me. I've had the same experiences, or very similar. I can only imagine that the video more or less confirms what Rick wrote.


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#4440412 - 09/23/18 01:44 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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heh, well, since you can't see it, I can definitely say that one thing the the video does prove that I am the greatest virtual pilot of all time, and by a long shot! rofl I'll edit this post in with a google drive link as soon as it uploads. If anyone knows how the whole private video thing works on youtube, let me know and I will fix that as well...

edit: Google link:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uc84MaeFLqFz1r_TaZ9dblMu77p7ggHO

Last edited by Rick_Rawlings; 09/23/18 02:12 PM.
#4440416 - 09/23/18 02:25 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Guys, cool down please, although we try our best, it is just a PC flight simulator.
It is not perfect., and neither is all the other sims. Its very easy to find faults and hangon those.
Originally Posted by Force10

Space_Ghost is a defender of all things BOS/BOM/BOX related. Since this is a competing product...my guess is he's doing his part to try and take it down a notch. Just IMO of course.


Thanks Force10.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4440451 - 09/23/18 06:20 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Hmm, I made it unlisted, see if you can watch it now...


#4441240 - 09/28/18 09:23 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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I just wanted to revisit this because I have simply had so much fun so far. I have never smiled so much at virtual dogfights as I have in WoTR.

I thought I saw my wingman go down the other day in a collision, he was spinning down to the ground... but no, I found him shortly after I tangled with another enemy, and he was heading home, albeit struggling to control his aircraft.I actually cared!

Your fellow airmen help you, and rapidly so. Calling for assistance works, and it is beautiful to see your assistance scything down on the bandit chasing you.

I have also grown to love the graphics in their own way, especially the clouds which I originally found a bit 'different'.

I am very much looking forward to the next phase.

#4441259 - 09/28/18 12:48 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Great points! There are also effects in WOTR that I greatly prefer over CLoD, such as the wounding effect. Even for the work to be done, nice touches abound. Re-watching the video above, I had forgotten about the flack shooting down the 110 as I made my initial climb-out...

#4441469 - 09/29/18 06:19 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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I think both WOTR and CLoD have their virtues, and I would never forget to mention BoB II Wings of Victory - which, if you haven't considered, I also would highly recommend trying. My own short summary would be as follows:

(1) IL-2 Cliffs of Dover (Blitz Edition) - the only one with multiplayer, it has probably the best flight models, and certainly does the best of the three at modeling the nuances of the controls (esp. engine controls) of the aircraft it models. The selection of aircraft is slightly larger than the others. The graphics are best of the three - though arguably just by a notch, and most of its advantages are purely technical (it has an engine with fancier shaders and features like 3D grass). It runs very well even on fairly high settings (this was not true of IL-2 CLOD as originally released, but the Blitz edition is a huge improvement). Main downsides are the very limited singleplayer content, especially since the third-party Desastersoft campaigns add on is no longer available or supported. The AI is a bit lackluster, and at least as of writing, there are annoyances like bomber gunners that are way too accurate and effective. It is a great time in multiplayer - and covers some historical ground that the others don't touch (like the Battle of France, the Dunkirk evacuation, and night bombing/night fighting during the Blitz).
In short, it is a pretty smooth sim with really good aircraft and flight models, best enjoyed in multiplayer.

(2) BoB II Wings of Victory - this one has a dynamic campaign that is definitely the most advanced on a strategic level; indeed, you can actually play this one as a pure strategy game, commanding the whole war effort without ever actually flying an aircraft. Although the engine is quite aged (on par with WOTR's CFS3 engine), it still looks quite good. In the hands of an officially-supported community group, patch support for it had gone on long after release. It has some very good details in scenery, and an incredible variety of skins for aircraft (last I checked, hundreds and hundreds of unique historical skins). Its greatest advantage by far, though, is the sheer number of aircraft the engine can handle - actually, more than any other sim since European Air War. A "large" bomber raid in IL-2 CLOD (and mostly in WOTR as well) means a couple dozen bombers at most. A large raid in BoB II WOV is 300-400 aircraft - absolutely huge! And it actually handles it pretty smoothly. The flight models are good, the AI is very good (I wouldn't put it over WOTR's, but it's better and more human-like than anything in IL-2 series games). Its main downsides are its age and a campaign that can get a bit technical and impresonal.
In short, it's a great choice if you're interested in the "big picture" of Battle of Britain combat and want to see huge formations - and are less interested in the personal detail. IMO, it's a sim that everybody at least needs to try though!

(3) Wings over the Reich - as others have said, if you want a more focused individual pilot/squadron experience, this one's a great go to! In many respects, for me it seems to sit in between the other titles, and that's not a bad thing: the CFS3 engine shows its age, although OBD's updates have pushed it a little further in terms of looks than BoB II. It doesn't look quite as good or run quite as smooth as IL-2 CLOD on similar settings, but it makes up for purely technical finesse with some very good design - here and in WOFF, I've always enjoyed the handcrafted look of the terrain and atmosphere. It might not draw individual blades of grass, but from high up the terrain "feels" really naturalistic, and down low you get some lovely details like livestock and fences (on second thought... I hate fences! biggrin ) The flight models - personally, I actually really like them, with a few caveats (there are a few odd behaviours here and there). I especially like how this game treats the Hurricane - at least subjectively, it feels like it reflects all the operational limitations of the aircraft that you read about in literature. I would still have to put IL-2 CLOD over it in terms of things like detailed controls and instrumentation. The AI is definitely the best in business - other than WOFF (but give it time and I'm sure it'll be tweaked to the same level of refinement). It doesn't handle nearly as many aircraft in-mission as BoB II, but somewhat more than IL-2 CLOD typically does.
In short, it provides a more personal perspective - if you just want to play as a single pilot in a squadron, it's a great choice. The campaign system is very good, the AI is excellent, and it keeps you firmly "in character".

I don't think there's any "bad choice" among the three, to be honest, nor one that completely "knocks out" the others in every respect. Any one of them deserves to be somebody's favourite - it just depends on personal preferences, and what the player is actually looking to get from the experience smile


If you're having trim problems, I feel bad for you son
I got ninety-nine problems, but my pitch ain't one...
#4441509 - 09/29/18 11:29 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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CCIP, Very nice comparison. I enjoy all three, each with their own strengths. I'm very lucky to have three fine BoB sims to choose from.

BOB II WOV ( and predecessor Mig Alley) are my all time favorites. Unfortunately, BOB II seems to have issues running under Windows 10 for me and others.

Last edited by Vox; 09/29/18 11:35 PM.
#4441538 - 09/30/18 05:12 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Seconded.....excellent review.

Luckily not being at the bleeding edge of technology I still have a system running windows 7. If what the last respondent said was correct , no reason to think not,...i'll be keeping a system running windows 7 as part of the new expanding computer sector. We have Vintage Cars why not Vintage Computer Systems.

With a plethora of sims showcasing the campaign of BOB and or modelling the aircraft; the last respondent has also highlighted the bitter sweetness that is Wings Over The Reich. It should have been.... Wings Over Korea !!!

Tim

(P.S. not a thread-jack just a personal observation )

#4441540 - 09/30/18 05:37 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Very well written, CCIP. I think exactly the same and keep on my HD the same sims.

#4441585 - 09/30/18 04:13 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Thanks CCIP - very interesting comparison! The windows 10 incompatibility of BOB2WOV bothers me very much, since my desktop pc that still had windows 7 has hardware problems and my laptop only runs windows 10... A pitty - a fantastic sim!

After a little trouble setting up the sim, that were solved by the faq and polovski in this forum I had my first flight and my first dogfight in WOTR.

First I have to say: I find Space_Ghost's criticism despite his provocative style valid. The flight model feels sometimes weird if you are used to other sims. Especially the rudder (as was mentioned in this forum more then once already) feels very diffrent. The slip ball indicator behaves inpredictable and when I try to "step on the ball" to coordinate the flight it doesn't have the expected impact on the ball and the plane starts to turn unbanked. Also the change from speed to altitude and vice versa as well as stalling and stall behaviour feel more natural in both clod and bob2wov.

That said - it was far from terrible won't stop me from enjoying the game.

Graphically it looked better than I expected and for me it clearly beats BOB2WOV - though it is behind CLOD. But getting this look from such an old engine? Awesome!

Ok after the first take offs and aerobatics to set up controls and get used to the new FM I did a quick scenario - escorting some He-111 attacking cargo shipping.

After a wild chase after my flight leader (engine management feels off in the Emil as well) we flew close escort for the bombers until one calls out "Indianer, 11 Uhr hoch!". Radio chatter with it's static sounds is great and very atmospheric! The swarm climbs to intercept the interceptors - spits reluctant to give up their energy advantage, 109s content with keeping them away from the bombers - both sides actively trying to get into killing position/avoiding being killed - ok, ai is very good. I kept a little away from the dogfight - gaining altitude, watching the dogfight and the bombers. The spits draw the emils away from the bombers - on purpose? If so - good job, because a few hurricanes descent upon the bombers. I attack a hurricane that flies away from the bombers in a straight line. Expected it to turn around for a second pass or evade me if it saw me - did neither... Hit by a gunner? Not sure - gave it a short burst - wing rips apart and the pilot immediatly hangs on his chute as if he was ready there just waiting for the plane to disappear around him... That actually looked a bit odd and I almost rammed the poor fellow...

First kill (in campaign noone would have confirmed it I guess) - I turn around and see noone... So I fly back to the cargo ships to see if I can do anything more... a spit passes me in straight line on her way back to the isle - to far for a kill, yet she didn't see me. I try to catch her but I can't - a wild machine gun burst to have her start maneuvering so I can catch her - she does the right thing and ignores me...

Checking my six and see another spit sneaking up on me - nice try! Start a dogfight with the spit doing good maneuvers, but I land a snapshot that seemed to have hurt, because afterwards I have a good pass on her six - now she is definitly seriously damaged. Can't see anything but she gets slow and lumbering. A third pass and she breaks into peaces - second kill that would definatly stay unconfirmed... But that was a fun dogfight! Now back to france - eavding the coastal flak. (which looks great and is accurate enough to make me feel in danger) Motor starts to stutter... Did I kill the engine because I haven't mastered WOTR engine management yet? Was I hit by the spit or the flak and didn't notice? Is it random engine failure? Checking the fuel clock - enough left - ok so engine broken for wathever reason and I'm to low to glide all the way back to France. So I go as far as I can and thought this a good moment to see how emergency watering is simulated. I liked it! Coming to a halt 300m away from the french coast and the plane started to sink slowly. I guess I would have made it back to friednly forces...

So conclusion: In my opinion the sim still needs a lot of work - but from what I saw so far on this forum I believe that the devs will work hard to imrpove it.

Yet I already had lots of fun in this single mission without any context and look forward to try the campaign that is advertised as one of the two major selling points of this sim - the other one (ai) seems to be great already!

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