I just wanted to give you guys a heads up on something I've been working on for a long time.

I've had the dream to design and produce a realistic, affordable, floor mounted stick for several years now. This year I was finally able to do it.

All the pieces are in place, and production is currently under-way, so I feel now I can let the cat out of the bag.

The first offering is a floor mounted, long throw stick, based on the cyclic from the UH1 Huey. I think the Huey's stick is a good compromise between a helicopter stick and a good general purpose fixed wing stick.

Yes, there are collectives, pedals, and throttle in the works... but I just want to get this one out there first. Will be less than $500.

If you'd like more information please goto www.galactic-pancakes.com

Thanks
John
[img:left]http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0280/6098/products/Catalog_Stick_MKIII-01a_1024x1024.jpg?314[/img]

Looks good. But too rich for my blood $500.00 really?

SD

Thanks for your feedback!
No, it's important that it will be *under* $500.

Will keep you posted.

Interesting project.
Your gimbal system use cam?

Sokol1

The design is such that cams can be used, but currently it uses 4 springs at the base of the stick. Provision is also there for rotary dampers, but of course that won't help to keep the cost down.

500$ is worth compared to the headache of building your own.
500$ is nothing compare to materials used, engineering required, and time and effort..

BUT i chose the build my own route, only because i like CH Products, and i made decision to make my own controller (cyclic) using a CH fighterstick.

Hi Hannibal,
I saw your CH project thread.That's some impressive engineering right there.

The grip is nearing completion. Can't decide if we should add the wrist relief or not. I've seen them both ways.

What do you guys think?

looks great for a first design.

if you happen to make apache flight sticks at reasonable cost, let me know.

great job, let see the prototype!

Thanks.
Would love to do an Apache grip. The problem with the B8 is the lack of buttons, and an Apache grip would sure solve that issue.
Won't be able to get to that until all the kinks are worked out of this first model though. In the meantime, if you have a spare Apache grip you can lend us to measure, that would help immensely

My 2c: wrist relief never hurts. The lack of it can...

Agreed. Wrist relief please

Ok, wrist relief it is. Thanks for the feedback.

Hi jm1941,

what technology are you planning to use for these grips? Will you 3D print them, or do you want to use some molding technology?

Hi,
They will be injection molded. Here's a quick look at the 3d print from yesterday. A bit rough round the edges, but everything fits, and it feels very close to the original.

VERY NICE!

awesome work! i wish i had a cnc machine and or 3d printer..

Very nice looking!

Do you plan on including the diamond grip texture on each side?

Like this drawing

This is quite promising.

I'm guessing this initial model won't have force trim, since that'll make the price skyrocket for a nice, smooth implementation with tight centering force?

Another thing I'm hoping for is interchangeable grips. The B-8 is a nice, basic start, but people will want Ka-50 cyclic and collective handles real soon, I'm sure. (And while we're at it, might as well add grips for all the major 4th-gen fighters and other military aircraft with center-mound sticks...)

Hi guys,
Yes the grips will feature knurling on both sides, but it would not have printed that well so we left it off for now.

Nameless; you are correct, the initial model won't have force trim. However, we've designed the base so that it's modular, and future modifications should be quite easy. So if we get to that point it could be an upgrade module in the future.

Grips will indeed be interchangeable, as well as sticks, so in theory you would be able to change from a Huey setup, to a Mustang setup (F-18, Ka-50..whatever), in a matter of seconds.

Parts are leaving the factory tomorrow, so I should have more to show you early next week.

Stay tuned!

Modular design for easy upgrades? I like the sound of that! Makes the initial cost easier to swallow if I can be confident that there's a force-feedback upgrade path. I know someone can make a better FFB stick than the old MS SWFFB2, but hardly anyone tries.

Of course, I fully admit that I won't be able to afford equipment of your grade for a while. "Champagne tastes with a beer budget", as some like to say. But I've been through so many flight controls, from the old Suncom F-15 HOTAS setups to the Saitek X-52 Pro to a very highly modified TM HOTAS Cougar to the usual CH Products Fighterstick/Pro Throttle/Pro Pedals combo to even the vaunted TM HOTAS Warthog, and every single time, I noted bothersome flaws in each and every one of them regarding ergonomics, feel of movement, sensor quality, programmability, etc.

I'm not alone, as I met someone on the Star Citizen forums who's quite possibly just as demanding, if not moreso, and also happens to be an engineer for this sort of stuff, down to designing and building his own gimbals, most notably a specialized aiming stick for MechWarrior Online. (And speaking of Star Citizen, that fanbase is a market you can potentially expand to down the line, if you so choose. Some people there are already devising new HOTAS setups and alternatives better suited to 6DoF spaceflight...)

I want to know if you'll be the first for which I don't notice the usual flaws associated with mass-produced gear of any sort, something that makes me want to pinch pennies for months so I can finally buy it and have that greater step toward immersion...unless I'm the lucky sod that manages to win the free set, but I'm not counting on that.

I'd like to hope we meet your expectations. I'm extremely critical, which is one reason I decided to do this in the first place. Yes, there are a few other companies building nice stuff, but not at a price point most people are going to go for.

To your point about being mass produced; our stuff won't be. We will be looking at a product run of 100 units for the control column.

Thanks for the info about Star Citizen...It wasn't even on the radar for us.

And lastly, you never know about the free giveaway. Not too many people have bothered to sign up, so your odds are pretty decent at the moment!

Have a good weekend!

I have a little sneak peek for you guys.

Ok, so what are looking at?

What we have here is part of the initial run of control columns. Everything is made from laser-cut aluminium, except for the housing, which is made from cold-rolled steel. The housing is finished in black power-caot, while the aluminium parts are left bare. We might decide to anodize them on later runs.

These pictures will give you an idea of the finished parts. Currently the electronics are still being manufactured. The stick tubes are also still being made. The opening where the stick exits the enclosure will be finished with a leather boot, and that is also still being finished.

So, as you can see, there are still plenty of things to get done before we can start selling them, but we are well on our way!

As you can also see, this thing has been designed and built to last a lifetime, and as I've said in earlier posts, the basic framework is modular, so as we think about things moving forwards, they will all be retro-replaceable parts that will work with the base unit.

We've spent alot of time and money so far, and I hope you guys think the results thus far are promising, and worthy of your interest.

Appreciate any feedback you may have!

Nice sheet metal gimbal. What kind of force load do you plan to use? Will there be separated load for each axis? Eventually dampers?:)

is that a self centering bearing??????

It takes about 250 grams of force to move the stick to the stops. That seems ok but we are experimenting with different springs. Currently the load is divided among 4 springs, and not separated per axis. The original design intent utilized cams and bearings to divide the load, but it would have made the unit too expensive. We plan to offer the parts to upgrade to that configuration once units are shipping.The same goes for the rotary dampers.

Nope, they are 22mm flanged bearings.

Great looking stick thus far! Please be weary of the type of lube to use so the springs don't break over time and the metal does not wear out...

Sweet!

How high do you figure the seat must be from the floor to have the stick grip at proper height?

The unit is made to work with a standard desk height of 30 inches.
For chair height, figure a measurement of 17-22 inches at the front of the seat.

Looks good to me, I even signed up!

What I really like about the gimbal construction is that it's easy for the end user to disassemble and modify as necessary. Just look at all those screws holding it all together and those bearings used where mass-production sticks have none! This will be pit-builder paradise, I know it!

Now if I could just think of a way to connect some FFB motors to the gimbal pivots sturdily, reliably and without stressing out the motors too much to the load. I'll cannibalize an existing FFB stick's electronics if I have to.

I've got a Logitech WingMan Strike Force 3D that's sitting around all disassembled because the stock gimbals are a total engineering failure with the way the pots are mounted directly onto them. That would be a perfect donor for this project, especially coupled with some anti-torque pedals...the only problem is that the software centering force is very sloppy and will need some mechanical assistance. Even the famed Microsoft SideWinder Force-Feedback 2 suffers from that a little, which will be especially obvious in a floor-mount stick with lots of throw.

Thanks for the feedback!

@nameless could you post some images of those FFB motors please?

390.00 USD = 243.136 GBP

I think that's a pretty reasonable start price for early adapters.

If I can,I will try and sell some militaria and see if I can make some £'s.

Could you please estimate uk shipping?


H

The shipping is a bit of a sore spot at the moment. Shipping within North America is not too bad, around $50, but shipping to Europe is double that, around 100-110 to the UK for instance. Reason being the weight; it's almost 10kgs.

We are looking into other options for shipping to Europe/UK, and if we can find a cheaper method we will use it. If we do find a better method, all pre-orders will be refunded the difference.

Very impressive work i hope you will sell buttloads!:)

Have you any idea/plans on the costs for international postage....is this something you are looking to support?

Looks great by the way.

Thanks very much. So do we!

Thanks!

Yes, we're happy to ship anywhere worldwide. Shipping outside of North America seems to come in around $100 USD. Due to the weight I'm afraid.

Here are a few images showing the spring arrangement, and a short stick used just for testing.

How's the noise on those springs? I think you might need some thicker wire gauge ones so they don't snap during long use?

They are 1.05mm thick, and they seem ok. We do have a thicker option standing by if needed. As far as noise, you do get a little "springy" noise now and then, and that's something that's being looked into. We have another arrangement using spring anchors that eliminates it all together if needs be.

Looks fantastic! I already have modification plans swirling through my head. Count me in!

I've been searching for a decent joystick for years. I've owned the Cougar, Warthog, G940, X52, CH, Aviator, etc etc, and always go back too the MSFF2, for its gimbal smoothness, and easy of putting bullets on target. I've always felt most sticks had very clunky gimbals with the Cougar, and CH being very clunky, albeit robust. How would you rate your gimbal system for smoothness going across the XY axis?

Hi,
Well, of course I'm going to be biased...
But to be honest, I don't think anything could be any smoother. The bearings are shielded, and made from chromed steel. They are rated for 34000rpm, so they should last a lifetime. The gimbal frame is made from 3.5mm aircraft grade aluminium, and once assembled, the whole rig is rock solid and super smooth.

Once the pre-order customers start to receive their orders I'm hoping some will add their thoughts also.

Thanks for your interest.

I'm very interested in your product, and glad to see your located in Canada where I won't have to incur heavy brokerage/shipping fees. Do you have an approximate idea when your product will be available? PayPal?

Hey, I think we emailed?

Yes, Paypal is accepted, and we should begin shipping first week of January.

Thanks!

Yes. I started checking out your website the same time I was reading this thread. I'm looking forward to more Pics and info. I assume the software included will allow the X and Y axis's to be tweaked? Deadzone/slope etc

Thinking about putting this one on the Christmas list...

I see you are located in Toronto which is convenient.

To avoid heavy shipping costs, would it be possible to purchase and do a local pickup?

Also, any thoughts about producing a decent set of pedals in the near future?
My Pro Pedals are kind of sucking these days.

S!

How about Force Feedback system ? maybe next ?


-haukka81

Looks great John! Signed up and very close to committing to a pre-order. I would also like to learn more about the electronics side of things in terms of how it'll all integrate with our favorite sims. If there's any plans to interface with the TM Warthog or Cougar grips, that would be awesome.

Thanks for making our dreams possible!

Hi guys, sorry for the delay in responding. Things have been a little busy! Just wanted to let you know the first run of grips came in, and I'll be posting some pictures, and responding to the questions above tomorrow morning.

Thanks again for all the interest!

I'm also very close to pre-ordering! Some info on the electronics and the type of sensors used for the x/y movement would make the decision easier <S>

I would make order too, but would like to know if Force Feedback is possible to make? Looks like that gimbal system is strong enough

Here are a few pics showing the B8 Grip as it currently stands. The buttons are not exact replica items, but the real deal cost around $90 per button...so, we have these instead. They are good quality buttons, rated for 1 million activations, so they should last a very long time.

The original plan to injection mold the grips has been shelved for the time being; we'd need to sell over 250 grips to just break even, so for now we are going with a 3d printed grip. The quality of the 3d printed item far exceeds an injection molded one...the only drawback is that they are slightly lighter than an injection molded ones, so you may want to add some weight to the grip to get a more realistic feel, however once attached to a stick I don't think you'd really notice.

As you can see, the hat switch is still being manufactured.

We went with black buttons for the time being, but give us some feedback, either black, grey or red buttons are an option.

Hope you guys like it!

Unfortunately software isn't our thing, so you will have to make do with whatever axis tweaking options are already available under windows.

Yay Toronto! Yes, local pick-up, why not? Let me know before you order and I'll make a special non-shipping SKU for you.

It's on the list. Have to finish the pedals and collective first though.

Yes, pedals are almost ready to be released. We redesigned them to make them cheaper to produce, while still maintaining a very close likeness to the originals. Will be posting some images in the next few weeks.

In theory that shouldn't be too difficult. If someone can provide a pin-out diagram, and details of the correct connector, it seems do-able. If anybody else wants this please PM or email me and we'll try and sort it out.

The sensors are Allegro Hall Effect sensors, feeding analog data into a 12-bit analog to digital converter. So, you'll end up with 4096 steps, or values, per axis. Deflection on the stick is 15 degrees pitch and bank, so that's something like 136 discreet steps per degree of stick travel. The electronics aren't 100% locked down yet though, and the circuit and firmware is still being improved.

Grip looks great and new force feedback in future will make me happy

Any plans to put 1 more hat to grip, second hat would be nice, even if it means to leave one button off.



But your project looks too great to be true, best thing is that it is TRUE

-haukka81

Looks great! Put me down as a +1 for red buttons though

Very nice grip. Put me down for all black buttons and trigger.

Jm 1941

Warthog, Cougar, F-22 PRO grips use inside a "multiplexer" chip (8 bits) to reduce wires (5) between controller circuit and handle.

This chip use the SPI (Serial Peripheral Interface) protocol.
So to be compatible with Warthog and "cousins" grips like people
want your USB controller need handle this protocol.

A example of USB controller able to do this is Teensy 2.0 prototype board.

People asking for Force Feedback seem don't know that his protocol involve million dolar patents. Perhaps not viable for low volume production...

Sokol1

Hi Sokol,
Thanks very much for the info. That would seem to complicate matters somewhat. Will pass this along to the electronics people and see what they can do.

Wow, I somehow missed this topic, but this looks great, and I've been hoping to find a floor mounted stick which wouldn't cost me $2000.
Would the shipping to Australia also be around $100? If yes, I think I might very well pre-order!

Hi,
Yes shipping would be just over $100USD.

Ok thanks, that sounds really great!
Is it easy to disassemble and pack away? I might be moving interstate in early 2014, so I'd need to pack the stick during the move. Apart from that aspect, I'm really keen on getting this stick!

Thanks for the feedback on the delivery and pedals question.
I almost bought a condo across the street from you so it was easy to find.

I have signed up but when does the pre-order page become available to actually pre-order?

I see "sold-out" on your webpage for the stick.

Did I miss my chance to be an early adopter and save a little money in the process?

S!

The stick tube is held in the gimbal by 2 bolts, so once you remove them, and unplug the wires from the grip, the stick and grip come apart, leaving you with just the base unit and the stick+grip. If you keep the box it comes to you in, you should be ok

Did the pre order sell out already? I was just about to pre order it and just wanted to clarify a couple of details, but the webpage is indeed displaying "sold out" on the pre order page...

Hi, The stick was available to pre-order, but as of yesterday all the pre-order units have been sold. Now we are focusing on fulfilling those orders, and once they are all shipped we will begin taking orders again, at the full price.

Wow! Good news for you that there was enough interest to sell out the pre-order units Bad news for those of us prevaricating
At the pre-order price, I would have talked myself into purchasing. For the full price, I probably can't. My loss for procrastinating.
Sincere wishes for your success ! <S>

Good news for you, but you could have warned us that only few units were remaining... I took the time to ask a few questions because I didn't know there was a limited amount of sticks to pre order, but I had pretty much set my mind on it and would have ordered ASAP if I would have known that...

Hi guys,
Sorry for the disappointment and frustration...We were sort of caught off guard as well. Yes, it is great that we sold them all, but it's bad because we did say the pre-order period would last until January...So we've been discussing what we should do.

What we can do is extend the pre-order period for another 2 weeks. I'll update the order page to reflect that date. The trade off will be that these "extended" pre-order units might not ship until February, or possibly later (it will depend on the factory that does the sheet metal for us). You would still be able to cancel your order and get a full refund if you got tired of waiting however.

So, you can pre-order up to Dec 1, but after that it'll be full price.

Hope that'll work.
Sorry again for any upset.

Hi,

Thanks for that, as far as I'm concerned that's perfect and I don't mind if I end up waiting a bit more, that's ok. I think that if you do this with a clear warning on about the delays on the pre-order page it should make everybody happy.
I'll certainly pre-order mine when the pre order process will be open again!

EDIT: Done!

Hi, just a quick update;

We've completed testing with the electronics package. I quite enjoyed flying around in IL2 BOS, as well as DCS A-10, Blackshark and P-51. Everything is working together well so that's another milestone checked off.

Also want to thank everyone from the mailing list that took the time to fill out the quick survey. Some really interesting trends are developing, so we thought we'd open the survey to people on the forum as well. If you feel inclined to answer some questions that will directly shape our future offerings, please follow the link;

Galactic Pancakes Survey

We had a few issues with customs last week that have caused some delays, but other than that things are pretty much on track.

Thanks
John

That's great to hear. I've been flying the IL2 BOS early access and I'm looking forward to flying that using your controller!

I was wondering: is there any way that the control column could be made modular so that it could accept a yoke instead of stick grip in a modular way (ie remove one, replace by the other type, and release or lock the bank axis on the column as necessary)? I'm guessing that this might be too hard on this design, but a column which would be designed with that type of modularity in mind could be something awesome and unique (although I'm guessing that it makes it really hard to adjust things such as the spring strength given the big difference in weight between a stick grip or a yoke sitting on the top of the column). Just my 2 cents.

Make a video.

Sokol1

It's definitely possible with the current setup, but most likely not something we will be getting into in the near term.

Noted!

Any updates?

Still working away. As I may have stated before somewhere, the stick tubes themselves are proving to be most elusive. We have contacted numerous contractors about fabricating these parts and never hear back. We'll sort it out one way or another however.

Rudder pedals have been redesigned to lower machining cost as well as shipping cost. Will be posting something about them soon!

Any updates or news? Seems the Galactic Pancakes website is down.

The website being down for a few days is concerning, hopefully its just going thru an upgrade that will include new information.

Hi, no we're still here, though there was an issue with the site over the holidays that has now been resolved.
The good news is we have found a vendor who is able to make the correct stick tubes for us.
The bad news is that they're more expensive than originally budgeted for.

I may have to ask everyone who ordered if they would prefer the base unit, without the stick, at a discount, or the complete unit at a slightly increased cost. Of course a full refund is also still available.

Will be sending emails to those of you who have ordered over the weekend to see what your feeling are.

Thanks
John

Did you end up sending these emails? I didn't receive any (although I ordered in that short period of time when you re opened orders, so I'm not supposed to be in the very first batch). I'll certainly go for a slightly increased cost (as long as it is only a slight increase indeed) rather than the base unit since I was mainly attracted by the fact that this was a complete controller - I wouldn't be able to do a decent stick myself.

Has anyone heard anything recently?

I've been in regular contact with John, and I'm currently waiting to hear more about the pricing and options (the stick tube issues mentioned by him in Jan are still the main problem from what I understand) for the base alone.

Anyone else in the pre-order group get their deposit refunded? Mine was refunded yesterday. No explanation or reason given.

I hadn't checked my paypal account, but now that you mentioned that your received a refund, I'm realising that I received one too. From the recent emails I exchanged with John, it looks like he couldn't source some parts at a reasonable price and was forced to abandon the whole project. At first, it was just the stick and grip part which was problematic, with the base still an option, but apparently even the base must have turned out to be a problem.

Now I'll have to figure a new plan for my new stick. I'm hesitated between a Warthog + extension or a stick from these guys: http://www.maxflightstick.com/
It's a pity that their grips don't come with coolie hats and more buttons though, so I might still go for the extended Warthog. Any advice (or links to other interesting full/extended length sticks) is welcome!

FlyingMonkey,
I had the same issues regarding enough hats and buttons on available sticks. I solved that issue with help from Rich Price at Komodo Simulations. He made an AS350 grip and an extended cyclic shaft for me. I had planned on mating that with the Galactic Pancakes' base. Sadly, that's now off the table.
I've a semi-completed uni-joint gimbal and a hacked MSSWFFB2 base, but I'm not totally satisfied with them, either. Currently exploring other options such as a VKB Black Mamba gimbal.
<S> Bohemond

Hi Guys,

Don't want to poach the thread, but all my controls are still available and all with the Multi-Grip Base on both the collective and cyclic controls. B206, AS350 and Huey Cyclic controls available with more being added to the range in the future.

PM me or get in touch direct thru the website or Facebook if you're interested.

Bohemond, if you want to get the base unit from me let me know. I can easily add the Multi-Grip adapter to the base of your cyclic to attach the my Multi-Grip base unit.

BR

Rich

Rich,
Good to "see" you again!
Correct me if my memory is faulty, I thought that your bases were designed for helo's with no self-centering. At least that's what I seem to recall reading on some bbs. Since I fly only fixed wing WW I/ II crates, that wouldn't be optimal for me. I would definitely seriously consider one of your bases if they do, in fact, have a self-centering mechanism.
<S> Bohemond

Hi,

Yeah sorry, it's my memory that's faulty. I remember why you only ordered the shaft and grip now. Let me try out some different springs and damping oil to see if I can get the right return to centre force and we might be onto a winner for you.

BR

Rich

That'd be fantastic. Thanx Rich!
We should take this to email or pm, Rich.

@FlyingMonkey,
If u have any questions, shoot me a pm and I'll do my best to answer.

Bohemond, did you hear anything further from Rich? I sent him a pm but didn't get any answer yet.
Right now I'm waiting to see whether Rich could indeed make a self-centered version of that stick as I want to be able to fly fixed wings with the stick (helos as well, but not only them). The sticks at http://www.maxflightstick.com/ look good but their grips only have a top button, fine with Rise of Flight, less so in DCS which I also fly from time to time. I'll wait a couple of months to see what is around but right now I'm leaning towards a Warthog with extension.

Hi FM,

I replied to your message the day after you sent it, I'll try to re-send it.

BR

Rich

FM,
I see Rich beat me to a reply.
I'm confident that if there's a way to do self-centering with his stick base, he would be willing to do it.
<S> Bohemond

My mistake, I had received the pm but somehow didn't see it. I've replied by email.