Folks,




Comments from Old Dux-

Without continued contributions on this and the main forum from the remaining original hard-core posters I think I would have lost interest some time ago. The association with on-line friends has the effect of assuring perpetuation far beyond general troubleshooting inquiries - but aren't such inquiries the start of such friendships? Although playing the original Rowan BoB and to a lesser extent WOV fairly regularly over the years it has hardly been incidental to my posts. In fact, once upgraded - soon I hope - I will spend more time on it and reap the benefits provided by the seemingly tireless developers. Thanks to all of them!

The content of the HWH thread is generally humorous (probably) and often twisted (definitely) and occasionally sprinkled with pics and anecdotes of aviation interest. I hope that more posters will soon surface with contributions which will continue that which was started by the long departed SNAFU and kept firmly on track by JRT.

Comments from C51-

BOB and the later version of WOV have always tried, and succeeded like no other sim in my humble opinion, to give the feeling of 'being there'. That is why so many remain faithful to this sim. But while the software gives us the look and feeling of flight and battle, there is one thing no sim can do. We enjoy this phenomenon for the most part in virtual seclusion, and the human element can be hard to represent. But this forum, and specifically this thread provides the friendship and camaraderie which was every bit as much a part of the Battle of Britain as all the rest.

SNAFU was truly inspired in hitting upon the concept of a place to debrief, compare notes, laugh, stretch our deranged imaginations or just sit and gab. And the idea struck an obvious chord in the likes of JRT and Old Dux and many others, who have continued to come here to meet as friends. Whenever I attend Remembrance Day ceremonies I see veterans coming together many years later, still as brothers. And here on HWH several years after I was so warmly welcomed as a newby, we still drop in to be with our brothers. Many thanks to you all for the many was in which HWH has enhanced my life over the years.

Comments from JRT-

I couldn't agree more with you Dux if you were offering to pay that bar tab you've run up over the past almost 7 years... Since SNAFU is MIA it falls to us to celebrate his brainchild in our own way. We do not however forget that it was he, Mark Carroll, that created HWH. Salute SNAFU where ever you may be.

SNAFU's HWH has been and is a remarkable thread. Not only has it garnered over 5,000 posts on over 500 pages it has welded many a international friendship and brought together many like-minded individuals from across the globe who are fascinated by the BoB-WOV adventure and wish to share their experiences. All I might add in a flame-free environment that was perhaps SNAFU's greatest inspiration. After two threads, HWH and HWH continued, with over 5,000 posts on the latter alone, I am proud to say that we have had not one flame on this thread. And friends I have dropped by here every day so I'd know if there had been.

Here is how it all started way back on 4/24/01 with SNAFU's very first post on the brand new thread he called "Here's What Happened".

SNAFU Typed:
"OK it seems to me that most of the time we are here either complaining about what is not right with BOB or discussing the latest and greatest mod. Both are important to the forum. What I think is missing here is more talk about PLAYING the game. Playing the game after all is why we are here isnt it? Well maybe not all of us. there are some who are just not happy unless they can #%&*$# about something. For those of us who have BOB running well the game is awesome. Here's my proposal. Let us take time to post at least 1 game experience every week that has to do with the Battle of Britian and not the lack of RAM,CTD's etc etc. Keep it short and sweet but descriptive enough for everyone else to get a sense of what happened. So, to get things going here's mine for this week."

"Last night (7/12/40) I was flying intercept in my Spit with the boys from 65 squadron. Over the channel we ran into 40 or so JU87's and 75 ME109's. A total of 5 of our squadrons were ready to fight. I lined up on a Stuka and began letting him have it. A few hits but no major damage. All of a sudden from my left came another Spit blazing a way at the same Stuka. He blew the tail right off the hun. The plane rolled heavily to the right and the crew bailed. The pilot went out the left and his chute opened. The other crewman went out to the right pulled his cord but nothing.. The chute failed and he fell to earth screaming all the way down. WOW. I couldnt beleive what I saw. A bit later we reformed and I found 3 planes missing and 2 more smoking badly. We headed for home sad for the losses, but along the way at 3 different times each of the 3 missing lads showed up. A complete squadron again we all made it home to fight again. Awesome, simply awesome. Your turn........."

And that is how this amazing thread was started almost seven years ago.

Thank you Dux for sharing your time, talent and good humor with me and with our visitors over the past six and a half years. It has been for me an honor. I have enjoyed every happy minute of our virtual HWH association. Your Olga Sagas have become legendary and they are still much looked forward to by all. What a wonderfully twisted and fertile mind you have sir. Your encyclopedic aviation knowledge and your interesting photographs and the occasional drawing have been a marvel. You are a large part of the glue that binds us to this thread.

Thank you my Canadian friend C51 for your thoughtful comments. I heartily agree with your evaluation of our forum and our thread. For me at least it has been my friendly associations with folks like you and Dux that has made the many hours of typing and reading here the greatest of pleasures. In addition your daily e-mails and constant encouragement have meant more than you know.

Let me thank all those who have so kindly posted stories here over the years. I have enjoyed reading every one. Thank you also to all you 'lurkers' out there who come here daily to read our aimless chatter and perhaps to find the occasional new story or a re-posting of a popular old one. I continue to maintain our archives on a daily basis and I am retrieving the stories from the original HWH thread on the SimHQ archives as well. These are available on request.

Thanks to the Admin of SimHQ for hosting us and special thanks to our pals Jens and 20mm who have helped us many, many times. I do not have to tell you what a rare and valuable experience SimHQ has been and continues to be. They deserve our thanks and our congratulations on the occasion of their 10th anniversary.

Now on to the next 5,000. Right Dux?

JRT,

Of course! Kittyhawk NC - never occured to me before. Thats a truly historic State you live in especially regarding aviation.
Our part of Britain is littered with air crashes and I have a few more crash site photos to post.
The problem was that navigation was not the exacting science that it is today and there are Pennine uplands hereabouts that reach to 2,000 feet whereas most else is comparative lowland. If the pilot was off course or lost he would naturally assume that there was height to spare while dropping through cloud for a fix. All too often they struck the ground before breaking cloud.

The pilots of the Sabres collided in mist while climbing to get above rising ground and had just cleared the top.

JRT,

That was lucky. I didn't know you were piling in the posts. Glad I didn't drop on the 5000 but it was a close thing! At this moment the graphic hasn't come through though yet.

Ah! Now it has! Absolutely magnificent work Old Chap! You have really done it justice.
I'll have to print that off - magnificent. Wish SNAFU was here on-line eh?

I think it would be quite appropriate to bump this for a couple more pages as they turn.

Folks,

Dux:

You may want to re-read that 5,000th post. I've added SNAFU's first post on the original HWH thread. The post that initiated that thread and this one. It is worth reading I think.

Yes, we can carry on a few more years if the Admin. are tolerant and Providence is gracious. Perhaps others will join in and post their stories. If not, we friends will just tramp along together until one day perhaps only one of us is left at the keyboard, and then, in the fullness of time, eventually that typing will also be stilled. When it is, the stories may stop, and HWH may become ancient history. Whatever happens, the friendships forged here will continue on.

Folks,

Dux:

I am sorry to report that our C51 seems to be temporarily MIA. I have not received his customary morning e-mail with my breakfast toast for two days running. Perhaps his broom malfunctioned and he augured in last night? Or he may be suffering that common post Halloween affliction known to us all as toomuchcandyitis.

As you know, he is a teacher and they are made of sterner stuff than us ordinary humans. So I expect him to survive whatever it might be. In no time at all he will once again be teaching those sweet, bucktoothed little bast...er...assh...ah...little kiddies how to blow their drums and beat their trump... blow their horns and beat their drums. After a full glass of breakfast I always seem to get the wind and percussion instruments confused.

A wind instrument? Hmmmm. Isn't that something a very brave proctologist might gently insert to relieve the painful, embarrassing symptoms brought on by the chronic over-eating of certain leafy vegetables? Ouch!

Speaking of crashes, here is an interesting, and apparently up-to-date, site that tracks the B-17s still in existence. You may wish to check this out. Or maybe not?

http://www.stelzriede.com/ms/html/mshwb17f.htm

JRT,

Thanks for that interesting link.

The RAF was first to use the B-17 over Europe when 90 Squadron flew them operationally as early as July 1941. This was the B-17C mark which lacked adequate defensive armament and the tail fairing and turret which characterized later versions. I am surprised to learn that so many have survived!

Folks,

Dux:

Twas a tough old beastie the B17, originally expected to be able to perform its mission without fighter escort. Those bright sparks flying those heavy desks in the Pentagon thought that by proceeding to the target in tight, precision box formations the heavily armed versions of the "Flying Fort" could easily defend themselves. They might have done had the other side not actually had modern fighter planes with good pilots, tactics and real bullets.

Initially our side had no fighters with a fuel supply capable of following the heavies into Germany. The bombers were in fact on their own and forced to defend themselves once over Germany until the P-51 finally came along sans the underpowered Allison and now with a far better supercharged British engine. Most of all the P-51 came with the fuel capacity capable of taking those "little Mustang friends" all the way over the vital targets in Germany and back to England. It is a tribute to the bravery of the allied pilots that everyone in Germany was already calling Herman Goring 'Myer' by now and as those shiny Mustangs took to the skies over the assembling boxes of buzzing B17s headed for some serious target practice in Festung Europa, old Jerry was in for a truly nasty surprise.

Daylight raids on German industry were costly. Every B17 that went down took ten men with her. Accurate bombing required precision flying especially for the final few minutes to the "IP" when the bombardier took over the controls from the pilot. The B17s flying a straight line to the target were just sitting ducks for fighters and especially for the heavy flack.

The flack was heaviest over the important targets of course and often the enemy fighters held back to pounce on the stragglers coming off the target on the other side of the bomb run. Having those Mustangs there to keep the riff raff at bay was a real blessing to those beleaguered pilots and crew on those long missions that destroyed factories and supplies vital to the Axis war effort. That surely shortened the war.

I'm glad you found that site interesting.

Folks:

The pilot of the US bomber Enola Gay, which in 1945 dropped the first nuclear bomb to be detonated in wartime, died today at the age of 92.

Paul Tibbets was in command of the B-29 aircraft, which dropped the five-ton "Little Boy" bomb over Hiroshima as the US tried to end the second world war without a ground invasion of Japan.
Up to 100,000 people are estimated to have died in the explosion.

Mr Tibbets requested no funeral or headstone because he feared they would attract protesters. In 2005, he said he wanted his ashes scattered over the English Channel, where he had enjoyed flying during the war.

Most people will not know that from 1938 through 1940, while at Fort Benning, Tibbets met George Patton, then a Lieutenant Colonel, and destined to become the world-famous tank General in World War Two. While Tibbets was a lowly Second Lieutenant, they went skeet shooting together. Patton was a fierce competitor and "screamed in fury" at the few quarters he lost competing against Tibbets.

There is much controversy today over the use of the atom bomb. War itself is a horrific, brutal, misery causing business. There is honor and there is bravery and there is self sacrifice but there is nothing noble about war itself.

Before the first bomb was dropped, Japan had already lost her war and knew it. The Emperor would not surrender until the last Japanese had died defending him. Hell, it took two A-bombs to make up his mind. Tens of thousands of Allied troops would have shed their lives and that of countless thousands of Japanese taking the islands of Japan. And take it they certainly would have. Each of us must look at the facts and decide for himself what was best. Better no A-bomb, I agree with that, however, IMHO better yet no Pearl Harbor, better yet no Bataan death march, better yet no Iwo Jima or Tariwa... better yet no war at all.

JRT,

The controversy over the A-bomb often ignores the 'conventional' destruction wrought by the fire-raid on Tokyo - March 9th 1945 which caused greater damage to civilian dwellings in particular.

The most destructive single squadron raid of any war using conventional explosives was undoubtedly 617s attack on the Ruhr dams. While the raid did not achieve full expectations (which in my view were over-optimistic) the damage caused to the German war effort was massive compared to the numbers of aircraft used - just 19 - and exceeds any other single squadron operation by an almost incredible margin being far from that failure which self-proclaimed 'historians' choose to erroneously perpetuate. The moral boosting effect was incidental.

The A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki effectively cauterized the military code of Bushido - permanently, and the survivors of the Rape of Nanking would have given Tibbet's critics an argument.

Folks,
Dux:

As usual, you make a very good point.

Curtis LeMay's decision to fire bomb civilians brought the terror of war to Japan like never before.
The homes were mostly made of paper and wood. We can also mention the fire storms of Dresden and other German cities where the attempt was made by "Bomber" Harris to force the populace to rise up against their masters and end the war. As with the bombing of London by the Luftwaffe, thousands were killed and made homeless but I do not believe the demoralizing result was what was hoped for.

The 'Dam Busters' definitely did their best aided by that amazing bouncing bomb of theirs. The very
first computer game I ever purchased was titled "The Dam Busters" Monochrome early graphics to be sure but fun non the less. You could pilot, navigate, adjust those spot lamps to determine your altitude above the water, fire away at BF 109s or those pesky searchlights down below and best of all, bomb those dams. I still have that somewhere on a 5 1/4" inch floppy.

"Paul Tibbets was in command of the B-29 aircraft, which dropped the five-ton "Little Boy" bomb over Hiroshima as the US tried to end the second world war without a ground invasion of Japan.
Up to 100,000 people are estimated to have died in the explosion."

My father was in the south Pacific preparing for the invasion of Japan. I salute Tibbets, as he have may very well saved my fathers life (and made mine possible as well). As for the bomb, yes it was horrific! But probably not as much as an invasion of the Japanese mainland. Rest in peace sir.

10/31/07

Folks,

Craterman:

Welcome to HWH.

Thank you for adding your comments to ours. We often forget that in addition to all those precious lives saved (both Japanese and American) by ending the war early and making an invasion unnecessary were the countless lives of all their progeny and all future generations thereof. Tibbets and his crew were not asked their opinions they were doing their job as directed by the President himself. They were trained specifically for their mission and they did their job as expected. Having said that, seldom if ever have so few men been entrusted with such a world changing task.

Dux;

I have received your e-mail and replied to it. As you have suggested I have bumped the 5,000 post graphic to this page as well for those who might have missed it. We should be hearing from a tardy C51 sometime later today.

Gentlemen,

Craterman,

Nice to receive your post with interesting comment. Hope it won't be the last.

JRT,

A tardy C51? Perhaps delayed by Bonfire Night/Halloween celebrations all rolled into one eh?

BTW: Perhaps this is the opportune time when we should all pay silent homage to Guy Fawkes and his gallant companions:

The only people ever to enter Parliament with good intentions.

My HWH Friends,
I see the party has long since started, congratulations to...us...for the milestone of 5000 posts. In particular to SNAFU for this brainchild, to JRT who for his faithful, often single handed contributions at keeping the home foires burning, and to Old Dux for his continued unmatchable mischeviousness. And there are many more also. Very refreshing to see a post from a new contributor, greetings Craterman. Smashing graphic JRT, once again you have added a brilliant splash of creativity and colour to the celebration.

Sorry I missed the last few days, I was forced into hiding after pictures of myself in questionable Hallowe'en attire began showing up on wanted posters around town - obviously the work of some photoshop wizard. Hmmm, the style seems very familiar....

Folks,

C51:

Thanks for your comments. I have added them to the 5,000th post for that is where they belong. You are a long-time member of both the forum and HWH.

Dux:

That particular celebration would be on the fifth of November as the song says...and if I remember correctly. I also seem to recall that the unlucky Mr. Fawkes' explosive Parliamentary celebration more or less fizzled out. We do not light bonfires or celebrate over here for some reason. Our mothers' do not let us play with matches for one thing. I suppose that if our tireless legislators could figure out a way to make it a national holiday from work for themselves that might instantly change. At any rate, we will have a glass, bottle or bucket of something frothy and delightful in old Guy's honor on Monday night if you would care to join us.

Good Day Lads,

ah yes Old Dux, in a couple of days you will have to be forking over pennies for the Guy, or does this still happen? I doubt if children would bother going to all that trouble for a few pennies, but if the ante were up a bit I'm sure such a tradition would continue. I love your comment about Guy Fawkes being the only person to enter parliament with good intentions - much truth there. Indeed, lets raise a glass to them.
Hallowe'en is still huge here, although costumes are mostly store bought now rather than the home made jobs we used to throw together. The massive amounts of candy sold and distributed is mind boggling. I don't seem to see as many pranks any more, in my day we were more interested in trouble than candy, but of course we got mostly apples and those horrible Hallowe'en kisses which we would just throw at kids we didn't like. Of course This being Samhain, the Celtic new year, my ancestors would make huge wicker men and fill them with animals and unpopular people and set fire to the lot. Sounds like a real blast, those Celts really knew how to party
JRT, if I was your mother I wouldn't let you play with matches either. She was a wise woman and knew her son well. If it had been you there instead of Guy Fawkes, I'm sure the British Parliament Buildings would have neen history. And speaking of holidays, our newly re-elected provincial government has awarded us a new holiday in February. They are calling it family day. Whatever, I'll take it.
Ah... Guy Fawkes, 5000 posts, Celtic New Year, random holidays, so many things to celebrate and so little time. Drink up fellows.

Folks,

C51:

LOL! The very thought of you being my -gasp- mother is more than enough to bring several large drinks to my own lips. We will begin the celebration two days early. Salute!

Forking pennies?? We feel the same but spell and pronounce it a bit different. Most of us Yanks never spend a penny (yes, Dux I know that has quite another meaning over there) or need to, they just pile up in a dish or a jar until they spill over, get in the way and someone has to count and tube them for the bank.

Family Day, eh? Sounds like a euphemism to me. Why is the new government rewarding its citizens? That would never do down here. We expect, nay demand to be screwed by all new governments. It is a tradition. Family Day. Isn't that the one happy day of the year when all good Canadian boys are encouraged to get their girlfriends, ummmm, in the family way? Not that they need much encouragement of course, however, Canada is such a big place and with tensions escalating with the USA you will soon need more brave Canadians to man the US Canadian border. We won't even mention what is going on with the melting ice caps and the opening Northwest Passage these days.

Gentlemen,

I haven't witnessed a penny-for-guy request/demand/threat for several years now. It was usually some kid in a disguise anyway who resented being closely examined for genuineness. Such exploratory fumblings would get one arrested nowadays.

Bonfire Night is very useful for getting rid of those unwanted combustible items that the Town Council charge you for taking away. Settee, cupboard, carpet, mattress, unpaid statements, bills, that heavy and mis-shapen fair-isle pullover that Granny knitted for you last Christmas and you have been using as a doggie-bed, the twelve volume set of Selected Congress Speeches; all that crap will disappear in a few hours of exciting, comforting warmth.

Folks,

Dux:

I know exactly what you mean about that innocent fumbling about. Just the other night I was given a sound tongue lashing by a comely young woman who was wearing a skin tight red dress, stiletto heels and black fishnet hose. I had innocently brushed my hand against this ladie's behind as I passed her in the dark. I should have been more aware of her proximity even though she was standing on a dark Lizard Lick street corner for she was carrying a large flashlight with a red filter over the lens. I cannot be completely sure, however I do not believe she was impersonating Guy Fawkes at the time. To be honest, I am not absolutely sure what she was screaming about either, however, I do recall that the sum of $100 was mentioned several times.....

Unless you happened to live in old Salem, Mass. many years ago, a bonfire never sounded so very...very practical before. I thought all those hot, showery, sparky smoky things were good for was burning the odd witch, illumination, warmth and a good fill of charred hot dogs and marshmallows. Looks like the old country still has some clever ideas from which we in the colonies might benefit.

One technical question regarding bonfire safety occurs to me. How close does one dare to get to one of those roaring, fiery things when one is completely loaded to the gills with a rather volatile beverage that is sloshing about inside and tainting one's every breath?

Drat! I came down with a sore throat and never did finish that online correspondence course in sword swallowing and fire eating. If I get too close to the conflagration on Monday night that particular skill might come in mighty handy.

Folks,

Dux:

Due in part to your showing an inordinate amount of interest in my 3D graphics, and perhaps also due to my own lack of concern for my less than noteworthy reputation as a graphical artist, an e-mail carrying my latest effort is at this very moment landing in your rusty mailbox.

Derbyshire men are noted for their many good traits. Besides a heroic, nay gargantuan thirst that keeps several distilleries running full bore 24-7, you are reputed to have a great tolerance for the shortcomings of others. Be considerate my friend...my talent is small and my feelings are far too easily bruised.