Well, just to clear a bit more my point of view: I wasn't sugesting a pre-release beta. I was sugesting that the first RELEASE Combat-Helo version (version 1.0 if it's what Flexman will call it) didn't bring the Side B campaign, plus the Longbow radar and the longbow hellfire (which aren't that much needed for counter-insurgency warfare by that matter) in order to speed up the game's release - this means what while we could have a final and "complete" version of Combat-Helo sooner - This version would/could model all the needed AH-64D avionics (except for the Longbow radar) and the "side A" counter-insurgency campaign (Flexman would only need to concentrate in the counter-insurgency campaign elements for now, leaving the conventional "armored operations" for later). Please notice that this doesn't mean that Combat-Helo would be released in a "uncomplete" state like a pre-release beta would since releasing Combat-Helo with fully functional avionics and the side A campaign means that this would really be a complete game (and more complete than many games that I see released in the past). This only means that "extra features" such as the Conventional campaign ("Side B" campaign), the Longbow radar and the Longbow Hellfire would be released later in an addon (IMO, would be preferably together with the Chinook addon).

This of course doesn't means that I wouldn't support a paid pre-release beta. Of course I would, if this really would help the devs than surelly I would support the devs by buying a pre-release beta! But if this will be path that the devs decide to choose, I must agree with aggressorblue, don't make this pre-release beta "so public". Only limited advertisement here in the SimHQ forum for such pre-release beta would be my advise as well.

I think most of these proposals, only the SLOW release of the final version, and I do not know whether we like it

I would greatly pay for getting access to a beta version like I did with DCS: A-10C. Even if my system is to weak to run A-10C I did purchase
it to get beta to test if I could run it and to support the devs.

As this sim is made by a few people, releasing a beta version would bring in some capital and also
sort out bugs. Also, we all have different set ups, sticks, comps etc, so performance wise this would help Flexman
sorting out a lot. Please consider doing this Flexman, ED had lots of positive feedback doing it with the DCS: A-10C and I am sure
the release would had more bugs if they did not had the beta opportunity.

Also, consider this as marketing. With a beta release, myself and others will post YouTube videos of the sim showing some of
it features. This bring interest to the sim. I am sure a lot of people are searching for AH64 on the tube and there has been a long
time since an Apache 64 sim!

Another +1 for this idea. I would GLADLY pay full price for a pre-release beta in whatever state you release it in, and I would GLADLY pay for additional content as well!

I don't even have to think about it. I would pay just to fly your Apache Flex, do some beta testing or whatever...just let me fly an Apache :-) For a good sim, I would be more then willing to pay $100.

I've very much appreciated the way Flex has opened up the information of the developement of this very interesting title. Just wanted to throw my $.02 in.

I'm not terribly interested in the 'beta release' (as in the way DCS did it), as I just don't have the bandwidth or time to keep up with that type of release. I would however be very interested (cash in hand) in a 'demo' type release with some X amount of functionality, much like AD described earlier, even if it is a 'beta' release in that some (many?) functions aren't implemented or finalized. A helicopter and a small place to fly around in, perhaps a cannon or a few rockets to shoot at a road or tree or bunker or truck would be an awsome teaser, and in my opinion worth money to ensure further developement. Not to mention a demo is a great sales tool for as long as the title is available for sale.

I would call the pre-release demo a tried and true method. If memory serves, CFS1, EAW, WW2fighters all used that approach to great success trying to beat each other to release. The pre-release demo model itself might even be called 'old school', many titles from the era when CD's were new (before the interwebz) were happy to distribute demos of themselves through gaming magazines etc. Quite fitting for this 'old school' themed title, at least in my own mind.

All great and valid ideas.

People are used to partial releases. Just be honest about what we can expect, and we go for it.

Another suggestion could be having a time-limited demo with the A version + shooting range for a low cost/donation, just to get some money coming in or a more expensive with no time-limit.

Having only 1 side for release 1.0 doesn't shock me. Nor does having the A avionics and knowing a future patch/DC/whatever will eventually bring it later.

A good example on patch/expansion management is what Blizzard is doing with WoW. You know patches are coming (usually 3 major patches between expansion packs) and they will bring cool stuff for free (or maybe a nice low price for CH) and then you have the expansions with real extra content (like campaigns, new aircraft, amazing new features, etc.). Something like this could be planned for CH, maybe.

Just my 2 euro cents.

A lot of you seem to be saying about "just release the 'Apache' or 'A' model" first. I don't think some of you realize what you're talking about. Combat-Helo will model the AH-64D, not the AH-64A. Talk of leaving out the radar in beta releases would see the AH-64D being available, just without the radar, the AH-64D Longbow is what it's called with radar fitted.

Technically the AH-64D is still an 'Apache' but it's generally called 'Longbow'. The 'A' model is the Apache and the 'D' model is the Longbow (when radar is present). Just to make some people clear about this.

Yes, Flyboy is right! Notice that for example the Dutch Apaches are all AH-64D (-D Model) but they don't have the Longbow radar (The Dutch didn't buy the Longbow radar for their Apaches).
Another example are the US Army Apaches that operate in Afghanistan are mostly if not all AH-64Ds but they don't have the Longbow radar installed as well.

Also an another good example is Jane's Longbow 2 where all the flyable Apaches were AH-64Ds but in that sim you have 2 variants:
- AH-64D with radar
- AH-64D without radar

Yeah ricnunes knows what I'm talking about! I have seen quite a few variations of designations and name combinations over the years, and just because a Longbow doesn't have the radar fitted, is often mistaken as simply being an 'A' model 'Apache'.

Here are some designations/names I've seen...

Without radar ... With radar:

AH-64C ... AH-64D
AH-64D ... AH-64D Longbow
AH-64D (no rader) ... AH-64D (radar)
AH-64D (NR) ... AH-64D (R)

IIRC, the 64C is not used. Only a few were produced and they all got updated to 64Ds very soon.

And there are flavours of D models too, just to add to the confusion.

Actually, no. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I love the Apache but I don't know it that well. Used to when I was a kid. Now my brain is filled with way more fun stuff like when I have to deliver my tax declaration.

I think everyone understood what we meant. I appreciate the info though, so thanks

I don't do much else but lurk here from time to time (too much time spent on shacknews) but I just wanted to say that I'd love to give the devs some money in pre-order or paid beta form. I love the idea of the game and I'd love to support it in any way possible.

I think some people are misunderstanding...

Original suggestion made by Ricnunes was not releasing beta but separating 1 product to 2 products, "Combat-Helo : Counter-insurgency" and "Combat-Helo : Counter-army" with 2 different AH-64D variant, "without radar" and "with radar", which was first planned to be released all in one.
So, with the Rucnunes's plan, dev can release first product much more faster and can make more profit by selling two product.

btw I will happily pay full price for each of those 2 products.

I don't think we are misunderstanding, mate. We're just pitching in and further developing Ric's idea to help the dev team get some cash. Funding is non-existant at the moment and the guys can't live out of sheer air, sun -- and perhaps some water now and then.

The idea of a game + expansion pack is a good one but it may be split into smaller parts at the beginning just to try and give the guys some well-deserved income.

I would pay for pre-release beta. Looks great.

Imo the best version of a pre-beta, with pre-paid, as was the case a-10.
It is a pity to lose time on the other extras, models of the helicopter, just focus on the full release of the complete version.
Many people said that he would pay for the beta, in this and so I do, and it will be tantamount to buying the full version.
It is my humble 2 cents;)

I would happily pay full price for a beta, and would also pay for subsequent upgrades (such as the "D" model). I love these sims and need an excuse to give you guys my money!

I also want to send out thanks to Flexman; I love your blog, although I have no experience with game design I find the process fascinating. Thanks for keeping us updated!

I like the Idea of a 2 product release. I would also pay for a beta release.

2 cents!