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#2138699 - 02/15/07 04:00 PM LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11  
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BeachAV8R Offline
Lifer
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Today well take a look at how well accomplish the SEAD role (Suppression Enemy Air Defense) using the Su-25T. The T is quite capable in the SEAD role and carries a few unique weapons and instruments that will help accomplish that mission. The two primary items you need to accomplish SEAD missions are 1) a means to detect enemy radar emissions and 2) a means to engage those threats. You could also throw in a third item 3) a means to protect yourself from getting shot down. The best way to avoid getting shot down is, of course, to kill the threat before he kills you.

Ive set up a mission with several independent SAM sites for us to train against. Keep in mind that the scenario is fairly simplistic because there are not multiple layers or tiers of air-defense in this scenario. A more realistic setup would include long range detection, long range/altitude engagement, medium range/altitude, and short range defenses to protect the SAM emplacements including AAA and short range man-portable SAMs. For todays training flight well be taking off from Novorossiysk and heading inland past several SAM sites before returning to Gelendzhik.



Along the way well encounter several different types of SAM units that Ive chosen somewhat at random. Im not a master of mission design, so Im not at all sure what the capabilities and relative strengths and weaknesses are of each unit, but Im sure well thresh that out in later discussions. The first site well come across is an SA-11 Buk system comprised of 4 launchers and a radar vehicle. A mission designer would better be able to tell you how these items interact, Im not sure how many launchers can be controlled by each vehicle, nor do I know how close the launchers have to be in proximity to the radar vehicle in order for it to be effective.



The next site will contain an SA-6 Kub system, again containing a radar vehicle and launchers.



The final two systems well face are the SA-8 Osa and the SA-15 Tor. All of the SAM sites have been placed near the edges of prominent lakes on the map to better help us identify the site locations since this is a targeting exercise. Keep in mind that in a real mission you likely wont know the locations or, in some cases, the types of threats you will be facing.



In order to take out these threats well be carrying a fairly specialized SEAD ordnance package consisting of anti-radiation missiles such as the Kh-25MP and the Kh-58. These missiles use a passive detection system to home in on radar emissions and both have the ability to remember the location of the emitter and continue toward the target (though loss of the active signal seriously degrades their kill probability). In addition to anti-radiation missiles well also be carrying the unique KMGU-2 Sub-munitions Dispenser which is a bomblet dispensing unit that is used at low altitude and high speed to saturate an area with munitions much like a cluster bomb but slightly more linearly. On the center-line well be carrying the L-081 Fantasmagoria ETS (Emitter Targeting System) which is a passive detection system that directs the initial targeting of the anti-radiation missiles. On the outer stations well carry the MPS-410 radar jamming pods for self-protection. Ive also adjusted the fuel load to 50% to give us a 94% of gross takeoff weight.



With all these cool toys mounted on the outside we head off for our first target area.



The harbor near Novorossiysk is a beehive of activity; you certainly cant say that LOMAC world isnt rendered beautifully.



After climbing a bit it isnt long before weve entered the detection range of the first SAM site and our SPO-15LM Bereza radar warning system starts doing its thing. I have to admit that getting a grip on the Russian style RWS continues to be a learning process. The unit compacts a lot of information into a very small space and learning to decipher what it is telling you is crucial for battlefield survival. The first thing worth noting is what type of threat you are receiving. The type of threat is indicated by the 6 lights that cross horizontally at the bottom of the instrument. Moving left to right the radar types are: airborne, long range, medium range, short range, early warning and finally AWACS. Obviously, as an attack aircraft, the most alarming would likely be an airborne radar since your air-to-air capabilities are relatively modest. In this case we are looking at a medium-range radar (the 3rd light is lit) and the x underneath the symbol supposedly indicates this is a secondary threat (as opposed to an n which would indicate a primary threat). There are actually two threats being received however since primary and secondary threat bearings are indicated by the outer orange bearing lights and the green secondary threat bearing lights respectively. As you can see here we have a primary threat bearing indication (orange light) 10 degrees right of the nose and a secondary threat bearing (green light) also at 10 degrees.



Additionally, we have a signal strength meter that illuminates as signal strength changes. As signal strength increases, more and more lights illuminate counter-clockwise on the display. The dual hemisphere indication at the center of the display indicates the threat elevation relative to you (above or below).

Ive already activated the air-to-ground mode and have turned the ETS pod on (I-key) to detect and display the threat data on the HUD. Threats are projected on the HUD as diamonds and the square targeting data cursor can be moved over the diamond and selected to lock your missile onto the threat. Once youve selected the target the diamond turns to a circle and a range bar appears on the left side of the HUD. An arrow will fall down the range bar (maximum range is indicated by the thick tick line on the scale) and when launch parameters are realized a launch authorized cue will appear and your ready weapon station will flash.





Of course, if you can see the enemy SAM site, there are good odds that he sees you too. In this case the SA-11 Buk has launched on us as indicated by the solid red flashing circle and launch tone from the RWS.



Now is a great time to plug an excellent tutorial by Ironhand (RSoro on SimHQ) that will help you understand the dynamics of missile evasion (useful not just for LOMAC but for any flight sim with missiles). While his tutorial utilizes the A-10 the information contained is still extremely useful and the evasion tactics appear to work just as well with the Su-25T. You can download the video from Ironhands website: http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/supad.htm The video is the first one titled Outmaneuvering SAMs and is well worth the time to watch.

I found that approach at low-level has a couple distinct advantages and disadvantages. Among the advantages is the fact that you can close to a closer range to the threat than at medium or high altitude due to terrain masking and simple radar signal physics. I also found that entering a rapid descent while the missile is in the homing phase can easily drive it into the ground since it is anticipating where you are going to be in X seconds, and if that point happens to be negative AGL you are in business. I dont know if some missile systems have anti-ground collision logic, but I found the technique definitely works. Here you can see Ive pushed into a steep dive and also turned to put the threat on my beam (90 degrees) and the result is the missile starts to descend rapidly as well as corner.





The clear disadvantage to this type of maneuver is the proximity to the ground you are doing such radical evasive maneuvers; the threat of running into cumulus granitus is perhaps as lethal as getting hit by a missile. Keep in mind also that the Su-25T in particular, with its advanced flight model, seems to be very unforgiving of misjudging the controls and you cant instantly arrest a fast trend; there is a tendency to want to mush down into the ground after you give up a lot of energy during a pull-out maneuver. I almost mashed right into the ground on the first dive at the ground and a sharp yank on the stick, bordering on an accelerated stall, was all that saved me.



I flew along for a bit testing out the terrain masking and it appears to work quite well in LOMAC. The other disadvantages to flying low besides the high ground collision potential are that your fuel economy is absolutely horrendous and you are also exposing yourself to other threats by being in small arms range (the Golden BB). An additional consideration is that your offensive launch range for your anti-radar weapons is significantly reduced by flying at low altitudes. Engaging from high altitude gives your weapon much more potential energy from the start and can increase your stand-off range. After a bit I started a climb back up to a low altitude, re-locked the SA-11 and launched my first Kh-25MP.



The missile tracked in nicely for a kill on the radar vehicle. With the head of the target lopped off I could now proceed inbound to finish up the job with free-fall weapons.



Selecting my KMGU-2 dispenser I set the arming panel to the special SSC-MJM SERIES release mode which, according to the manual, would release the contents of each dispenser at 2 second intervals to provide maximum (or appropriate) coverage.



Using the flames from the radar vehicle (and the pre-briefed knowledge of the location of the site relative the lake) Im able to pick up the SAM site visually (thanks for the zoom feature TIR!) and prepare to make my attack run on the site.



Again keep in mind that in a normal mission youd likely have several layers of defenses to penetrate and that this scenario isnt really indicative of the type of situation you would find in a well constructed mission. No doubt there would be additional ground threats in the form of MANPADs, close in AAA, and other armor units firing every gun they had at you. Reaching the bomb release point I hit the pickle button and watch the little bomblets release from the dispenser.





My string lands a bit long but watching the ripple of explosions tear across the ground is fantastic!



Coming back around I plan my attack run to be more in line with the axis of vehicle orientation and I have a bit better success on the second run.





One of the vehicles is damaged and continues to smolder for a minute or so before exploding into full-on flames.





Im surprised to get an audible message warning my fuel has reached 800 kg. of fuel and a minute later I glance down and am alarmed to see Ive burned through my light fuel load rather quickly at these low altitude and high throttle settings. Ive also moved on toward the 2nd SAM emplacement and my threat receiver is indicating that I have been launched on.



I lock on to the SA-6 Kub emitter and wait for the range arrow to fall to the maximum launch range bar for my second Kh-25MP. When the max range parameter is met I launch the weapon while the SA-6 takes a shot at me.





Im a bit unsure as to the status of my wing mounted MPS-410 jamming pods. I page through the manual and cant find much reference to them and the keycard indicates hitting the E key turns on active jamming. When I toggle it on and off however I cant find any indicator within the cockpit that alludes to the status of the device (?).

Once again the Kh-25MP finds its mark and Im able to see the glow of the fire though the HUD. Im a bit unclear (or uneducated) on the specific (or general) capabilities of the SAM systems Im facing. For instance, Im not sure if some SAM missiles are autonomous after launch or if all of them require post launch guidance from the radar site that launched them. I figure by killing the radar vehicle Ive vastly improved my odds anyway. Additionally, Im not sure if supplemental types of guidance are implemented; I know some types of SAMs have different modes including optical backup and perhaps even IR backup (?). There is a lot to learn still obviously.





Once again I swoop in low after the initial anti-radar missile strike and clean up a bit with the KMGU-2. Ive learned to anticipate the release a bit better though and now hit the pickle button a second prior to my first intended point of impact; this allows the string to start just prior to the first vehicle and walk up to and over it and I think it decreases the chances of having a pass go long and miss the first target.





After the pass I continue off to the east toward the SA-8 Osa formation. I inadvertently included four SA-8 vehicles clustered around a centrally located re-arming vehicle that I mistook as a radar vehicle in the mission editor. I didnt realize that SA-8 is a self contained unit and doesnt require any additional support for firing. The support vehicle does bring up the interesting question of whether SAM units resupply from those vehicles or if they even have a finite missile capability. I know for sure that they have reload times, but Im unsure of the other two factors.



Since Im getting critically low on fuel, I elect to pass-by the SA-8 formation and instead proceed to an airfield where I can refuel. I choose Krasnodar-Pashkovskiy on the opposite side of the SAM emplacement so I decide to fly around the north side of the threat.



Ill be well inside the engagement range of the multiple SA-8 vehicles and they soon start popping off missiles at me at regular intervals.



I push my flying down as low as I can stand and the concentration required is immense. Just a slight bobble or second of inattention and it will be all over. Rising terrain is a serious hazard as it requires instant correction without bouncing up too high into the SAM engagement envelope.



Time after time the SA-8 vehicles fire but the missiles are on such flat trajectories that they often run into intervening terrain or structures.



At my point of closest approach I allow myself to drift just slightly high and as I look out the right side of the cockpit I can see the launchers and I watch in horror as a missile gets a bead on me and doesnt fly into the ground. This one stays fixed on my canopy and I feel my shoulders go tense and know Im going to get smacked by this one.





I push the nose down then yank back violently on the stick and the missile slides behind me and a huge yellow explosion lights the wings and inside of the cockpit. I look for damage indications and am amazed to find that the missile has missed!



I pass out of the west side of the engagement zone and hit the speed brakes to line up on the runway at Krasnodar. I touchdown and rollout before taxiing over to the ramp to let the tension subside.





On the ramp I shut the engines down (only 170 kg. of fuel remaining!) and then hunt through my keycard to find the refueling command. I hit the CTRL-R key and the fuel load starts creeping up slowly; a nice effect instead of just having the tanks fill up instantly. As the fuel load increases I wonder if it will stop at the pre-mission total of 1895 kg. or if it is possible to exceed that and Im pleasantly surprised to see the fuel increase past that point. I then become curious as to just how much fuel I can put in and it allows me to fill the internal tank to maximum capacity of 3770 kg. I wonder to myself if perhaps this weight is over-gross or not with my remaining weapon loadout and if there are any ramifications (structurally) other than increased takeoff speed and distance (?). Interestingly, it took several minutes to fully fuel and in that time I had the battery on but the engines off. After several minutes I panicked because the electronics turned off and my canopy raised automatically and I thought I had run the battery dead and wouldnt be able to restart. Thankfully, I was able to turn the battery back on and accomplish the engine start. Im wondering if perhaps the turning off of the electrics and opening of the canopy was the signal that the ground maintenance was complete (repairing damage which in my case was just repacking the drag chute). If you ever manage to get a damaged bird back to an airfield that is a good tip to know and one I only discovered after reading about it in the forums: just stop on the ramp (maybe even the runway?) and sit for a few minutes and your bird will get patched up. I didnt re-arm (is that possible?) so I fired back up and headed back to the runway.





Heading up the lake to the final SAM site, the SA-15 Tor, I once again turn on the ETS and prepare to engage with my Kh-58 missiles.





The Kh-58 is a pretty cool weapon since it drops away in free fall before the boost motor kicks in. This looks like a missile with real heft and punch. According to the manual the Kh-58 has a maximum range from a high altitude launch of 100 km!



Unfortunately, my first shot misses, perhaps because the SA-15 turns off its radar briefly and the missile only hits nearby but not close enough to damage the vehicle.



Meanwhile I evade missiles lobbed at me by staying just outside of the engagement zone. It is gratifying to look out the canopy and see the SAMs exploding a kilometer or so away in the mid-air.



I launch my second Kh-58 and get a kill on the SA-15 and I decide to have a little fun on my way back to base with the multiple SA-8 emplacements that I bypassed. I jettison my KMGU-2 dispensers and get down on the deck at near maximum speed. Though the SA-8 vehicles attempt to engage me several times Im just too low and I blister across the site at near 800 kph. Fun stuff but the high concentration required to fly so low is actually quite fatiguing.





Arriving at the destination airfield (Gelendzhik) back on the coast I get a bit stupid and try to slow from 700 kph to landing speed all while descending down from the high mountains that guard the west side of the harbor. As everyone knows, an unstabilized often leads to an unstabilized landing, which is exactly what I end up with.






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#2138701 - 02/15/07 04:02 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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BeachAV8R Offline
Lifer
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As I near the threshold I can see things arent working out, but as I attempt to arrest my descent nothing happens and I plow into the ground hard and bounce back into the air. I jam the throttles forward and stagger away from the field with all kinds of a mess hanging below me. Ive jammed both main gear partially back into the wheel wells and shredded both main tires as well as partially jammed the nosewheel up. Ive also managed to scrape the tail stinger housing off and to compound all the damage my speedbrakes are stuck in the extended position, making my climb away from the pavement a bit of a lesson in energy management.



I look in the cockpit and dont see any abnormal warning lights. I remember looking at the configuration panel and seeing my speedbrakes showing extended but cant remember what the landing gear indicators now indicated. In any case, I proceeded out over the water to dump my fuel and reduce my landing weight further before coming back in for the approach. A funny thing happened during that bit: as I was dumping the fuel I was watching the fuel gauge careful to try to get down to around 400 kg. or so prior to landing. I was concentrating so much on getting that exact figure that I almost allowed myself to drift down into the water. At the last second I saw the glare of the sun on the water and yanked back on the stick and just barely avoided an Everglades type accident. (If you dont know what Im talking about this makes for some sobering reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401



Coming back around I lined up on the runway and tried to set her down as gently as possible on the belly. Unfortunately I couldnt jettison the ETS pod on the belly and I was concerned that the airplane would want to fall off on one wing or the other during the belly landing. I touched down and sparks flew from the bottom of the aircraft and I started to drift off into the grass next the runway. Rudder had very little effect (and I didnt think to pop the chute, I was too busy) and soon I was sliding in the grass. Fortunately the aircraft stayed relatively straight and upright and I just missed running into one of the airport ground vehicles. When I finally came to a stop the engines were still running fine and damage seemed to be minimal. I shut down the engines, popped the canopy and reflected on what a fun mission that had been.





The mission was a great learning experience, although as often is the case, it probably raised more questions than it answered (SAM system configurations, capabilities, ECM functions, etc..). I figure that if I were a professional war-fighter that Id probably have a much more intimate knowledge and understanding of my enemy and his capabilities prior to embarking on any mission. Id want to know how many missiles X-SAM site could launch, how far they could reach me, and what the limitations are that I could exploit. Knowledge is power. The anti-radar missiles are very effective and easy to use and the KMGU-2 dispenser has a cool factor that might only be approached by the Durandal and the JP233 mounted on the Tornado (better idea in theory than implementation though from what Ive read).

Mission results edited for brevity:



It should be very interesting to fly against a much higher threat, integrated defense system. It is my understanding that LOMAC utilizes some form of IADS to coordinate defenses, but that is way over my head for now.

This mission can be downloaded here: http://www.mudspike.com/lomac/simhq11.zip

Thanks again to RSoro Ironhand for the excellent tutorials on his site, they have been a great learning tool!

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/news.html

BeachAV8R



#2138711 - 02/15/07 04:07 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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BeachAV8R Offline
Lifer
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Sorry..had to edit the original thread because the images weren't showing up...this was posted by Viper:

Great Read - btw the ECM indicator is located on the right hand panel of the cockpit as you are seated - a green bulb which lights up as the ECM is activated.



#2138720 - 02/15/07 04:12 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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BeachAV8R Offline
Lifer
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Originally Posted By: Viper
Great Read - btw the ECM indicator is located on the right hand panel of the cockpit as you are seated - a green bulb which lights up as the ECM is activated.


Aha! Thanks..I was looking around for some indication that the jammer was working..but couldn't spot that light! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction..

BeachAV8R



#2138753 - 02/15/07 04:56 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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I thought only ForSquirrels was allowed to delete posts???


There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the universe is for it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
#2138754 - 02/15/07 04:58 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: Legend]  
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BTW, good mission (again). Now if I get my profit sharing in a few weeks, maybe I can buy a new computer and finally do the later missions with a normal framerate.


There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the universe is for it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
#2138788 - 02/15/07 05:25 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: Legend]  
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as always a great read. keep it up.


DCS:World Sqd - 159th G.A.R
my pics - Tour
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#2138856 - 02/15/07 06:14 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: joey45]  
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Cntrl/W to re-arm when on the ground. Will only give you those weapons that you started the mission with (unlike Cntrl/R which allows you to re-fuel to whatever level you want).

WARNING - Cntrl/W will jettison weapons whilst airborne.


Sorry Death, you lose! It was Professor Plum...
#2138942 - 02/15/07 07:44 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: BritRadarDude]  
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Axel Offline
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Brilliant read, as always ! I just downloaded the mission and will be off to try my hand on it \:\)

Thanks a bunch and a big S! for your efforts,
-Axel-


System: E6600, 2GB, X1950Pro, X52, TIR4
#2139113 - 02/15/07 10:36 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: Axel]  
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Over the hills and far away.
Great read! Always enjoy them. Bring on some more!!
Regards, Kodiak.


I Want To Believe
#2139142 - 02/15/07 11:12 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: Kodiak]  
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Another good read Beach! Couple of thoughts...

Why didn't you start with the 58s? Those are your 'big sticks' when it comes to ARMs. Much longer range than the 25s.

Also it's good to get in the habit or 'double tapping' the radars. When engaging a target area that might have long and short range ADS in close proximity to each other the chances of a single ARM being shot down before impact are pretty good.


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, or how smart you are, If it doesn't agree with experiment it is WRONG. ~Richard Feynman
#2139201 - 02/16/07 12:23 AM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: Colt40Five]  
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Yeah for some reason FC 1.12a went back to Flanker 1.5 as far as the issues with SAMs. I got a training track that I've been seriously procrastinating that is quite different than that. Pretty much your launch angle and distance determines the ability for the opposing SAM system (in the case of my track, it's the same, a Kub) to actually intercept the ARM. Since the -33 can't use true ARMs, I figured that at 50-100m AGL gives me a one shot one kill with Kh-31As when launched at 20km. At that altitude and distance, it's a straight launch flight coupled with the right angle to kill the radar. If you fly lower than 50m AGL you may "hit" it as I found out one time to my detriment.

Colt40Five is most definitely right of course, always lead with your longer ranged missiles, as the Su-25T just doesn't have the power to even consider outmaneuvering a SAM unless, you fly tree top altitude and when it fires at you, fly towards the ground to "guide" the SAM into the ground while barrelling towards it. Needless to say, it's harrowing and quite suicidal, but can be done. Or just let it fire and find some cover, quick.

Unfortunately at most distances the generic missile flight profile is a near straight line start then a "pop up" terminal attack. This happens at the longer ranges, but the more you lower the launch altitude, the better success you have, and as said, double tap it and drive on.

Also you should have used the Kh-58s on the Kub and Buk, while keeping the lighter missiles for the smaller targets. Personally I think it's a waste popping it with a large missile when a Kh-25MP would do more nicely. Save the Kh-58 for the fun ones, such as the Patriot, S-300PS/V. Also note LOMAC does not model the secondary sighting system that the Buk and Kub have currently. Toast the radar, and it's "dead" as far as the other launchers. Flanker 2.51 had a nasty habit with the Buk in where the TELARs could still lock you up. Fun stuff back then but after you kill the radar on tke Buk, you'll be allright, as you saw.

ECM there should be a light on the panel on the right. If not well, remember if you turned it on or off. Personally ECM works alot better than it used to, so I don't truly discount it anymore as I did back then. You'll know when you're jamming a radar when you know you're in range and you hit the button, and it shuts down. Note that there's "burn-through" just like in aerial combat, and if I gauged it correctly, usually at ~20m and less, the Buk can burn through Sorbitsyas. I generally will never take the time to fly the Su-25T, so the MPS-410 is something you'll have to figure out on your own. Another trick coupled with the dive is yots of chaff. Usually you shouldn't have to burn through all of your chaff but a few bundles combined with a fast ninety degree turn (the Kh-25MP if I still think is fire and forget) can give you a fighting chance against "beaming" a SAM missile at long range anyways. Course find yourself some terrain to hide behind too ;\)


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#2139289 - 02/16/07 03:12 AM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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Originally Posted By: BeachAV8R
The first thing worth noting is what type of threat you are receiving. The type of threat is indicated by the 6 lights that cross horizontally at the bottom of the instrument. Moving left to right the radar types are: airborne, long range, medium range, short range, early warning and finally AWACS. Obviously, as an attack aircraft, the most alarming would likely be an airborne radar since your air-to-air capabilities are relatively modest. In this case we are looking at a medium-range radar (the 3rd light is lit) and the x underneath the symbol supposedly indicates this is a secondary threat (as opposed to an n which would indicate a primary threat). There are actually two threats being received however since primary and secondary threat bearings are indicated by the outer orange bearing lights and the green secondary threat bearing lights respectively. As you can see here we have a primary threat bearing indication (orange light) 10 degrees right of the nose and a secondary threat bearing (green light) also at 10 degrees.


A slight conceptual shift and, then, a correction:

First the conceptual shift: The green lights around the perimeter of the Beriosa are the threat bearing lights. When a threat is detected, one of these lights will be lit. So a green light will ALWAYS be lit. In addition the primary threat will be given a 2nd light, one of the orange lights in outer row above the corresponding bearing light.

Now the correction: This concerns the horizontal row of lights across the bottom of the display and the letters beneath them. When a threat is detected, the letter corresponding to the type of threat lights up. "X" means medium-range SAM. It's position is always 3rd from the left. (The "П" that Beach refers to actually stands for "airborne" threat and it always appears in the 1st position on the left.) The letters from left to right are: П=airborne threat (fighter), З=long-range SAM, X=medium-range SAM, H=short-range SAM, F=EWR, and C=AWACs. When the threat type is also the Primary Threat, the orange light above it lights up (just as the orange light above the bearing light lights). If there is no orange light shining above it, then the letter is representing a secondary threat.

EDIT: Though I've never run into it, I suppose it's possible that you could have two medium-range SAM sites on the same bearing. In that case the lights would still be lit just as they are with the closer site being designated as Primary and the more distant site as secondary. But the likelihood in Beach's image is that we are looking at a single site which is designated as the Primary Threat.

Rich

#2139365 - 02/16/07 06:01 AM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: RSoro01]  
Joined: Jan 2007
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Axel Offline
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Axel  Offline
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Posts: 29
Germany
One minor question with regard to re-flying those missions:

It seems as if I am always flying as "BeachAV8R" - while this is honorable in itself, I don't want to abuse Beach's ID by my horrible flying skills

Is there a way to make all missions flown being assigned to my normal pilot ID that I entered in the LOMAC pilots list ?

Thanks,
-Axel-


System: E6600, 2GB, X1950Pro, X52, TIR4
#2139484 - 02/16/07 11:11 AM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: Axel]  
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Lucky812 Offline
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Lucky812  Offline
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Corpus Christi, TX
In the preflight mission brief click on any waypoint, look for pilot, you will see your pilots name on a list when you click on it.


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#2139730 - 02/16/07 04:21 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: EricJ]  
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Joe Offline
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Joe  Offline
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Bridgewater, NJ
Originally Posted By: EricJ
Also note LOMAC does not model the secondary sighting system that the Buk and Kub have currently. Toast the radar, and it's "dead" as far as the other launchers. Flanker 2.51 had a nasty habit with the Buk in where the TELARs could still lock you up.
Yep, same in Jane's F-18. There's nothing as fun as a missile site which you have to kill 4 or 5 times over. \:\) Interesting that this is not modeled in Lock On.

#2139891 - 02/16/07 07:12 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: Joe]  
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EricJ Offline
Me, just me.
EricJ  Offline
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Baltimore, MD
Well really in some cases thats a real blessing \:D

Axel, you should be able to highlight Beach's original flightpath:





And select your own pilot. You may have already BeachAV8R's name already in your Pilots Log? If so that's why his name is showing up. WHen I opened the file it was "Pilot1" and I was easily able to change it to mine.

Osa missile capacity should be a total of six missiles per vehicle. I'm not sure how they model reloading but probably since you had alot of missiles flying... both were probably shooting at you, or alternating, so its not surprising that it happened as it did. Try going up against the Roland, that one is always a party SAM, ten missiles with a real hellacious reload time (the Roland has two ready to fire, while the rest of the missiles are in the vehicle itself) so two Osa's shouldn't be too bad. It's only too bad that I can only use Kh-25MPs on the Su-25T and not the -33. Oh well, I guess it's time to figure out some tactics. Been flying around too much and not enough testing..


|My Books | Home Page | http://562.combatace.com/ |
- 'Nearly everyone felt the need to express their views on all wars to me, starting with mine. I found myself thinking, I ate the crap sandwich, you didnt, so please dont tell me how it tastes.' - CPT Cole, US Army
- "...parade ground soldiers always felt that way (contempt) about killers in uniform." -Counting The Cost, Hammer's Slammers
#2139987 - 02/16/07 09:19 PM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: EricJ]  
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BeachAV8R Offline
Lifer
BeachAV8R  Offline
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Posts: 24,314
KCLT
Thanks for the comments guys..appreciate the feedback and learning...

Quote:
Why didn't you start with the 58s? Those are your 'big sticks' when it comes to ARMs. Much longer range than the 25s.


Ah...ya' know..I think I knew that from looking in the manual (that the Kh-58 was significantly larger and longer range)...I just didn't think of the situation "tactically"...good point! Indeed..it would be smart to use a high-altitude, long distance shot first..then move progressively through the armaments as their stand-off range declines. I guess the bottom of that pyramid is the canon..hehe..

Quote:
Colt40Five is most definitely right of course, always lead with your longer ranged missiles, as the Su-25T just doesn't have the power to even consider outmaneuvering a SAM unless, you fly tree top altitude and when it fires at you, fly towards the ground to "guide" the SAM into the ground while barrelling towards it. Needless to say, it's harrowing and quite suicidal, but can be done. Or just let it fire and find some cover, quick.


Yeah..flying around at low-level is fun stuff..edge of the seat stuff..particularly after you've invested a good bit of time flying a mission!

Quote:
Save the Kh-58 for the fun ones, such as the Patriot, S-300PS/V.


Good call..I haven't seen these types of radars yet..but I'm sure I'll find them in the campaign missions and user missions..! Like I said..I'm not a mission designer..I just sort of place stuff all over with no real thought on the appropriate use of integrated air defense.

Good points on ECM, radar burn through, and the lack of electro-optical backup to the radar. Interesting..

Quote:
"X" means medium-range SAM. It's position is always 3rd from the left.


Ah..thanks for the clarification..! That clears up some confusion I had..I wasn't sure if the type showed under those six lights..I was mistaken in thinking those symbols changed or were somehow tied to the lights... \:\) Thanks for the correction...

Thanks everyone for the continued good learning!

One thing I sure wish for is that there would be some way to place the pre-planned flight path (waypoints and lines connecting them) on the F12 map view. Even though it would be sort of a cheat it would be nice for situational awareness. I guess it isn't possible to make a utility to do that huh?

Fun stuff...

BeachAV8R



#2140122 - 02/17/07 01:11 AM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: BeachAV8R]  
Joined: Jun 2001
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Kodiak Offline
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Kodiak  Offline
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Over the hills and far away.
BeachAV8R I like your SU-25T paintscheme!! Is it for download somewhere, or did I miss something?
Best regards, and keep 'em up!
Kodiak.


I Want To Believe
#2140148 - 02/17/07 01:52 AM Re: LOMAC/FC: Training Mission #11 [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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EricJ Offline
Me, just me.
EricJ  Offline
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Baltimore, MD
Well BeachAV8R most of the info I gleaned was just the same you do man, place it on the map and (pun kinda intended) take shots at it to see how it ticks. And I'm pretty sure Ironhand has done the same, only we don't present it particularly in a mission style format (for giggles maybe) and go from there. The beauty since Flanker 2.51 is that you can do practically what you want within the scope of the simulation, and nobody thinks or worries about it. Go play!

Like I just got done with a test against the S-300PS system. Seems a long range distance shot, it'll fire three(!) missiles at it and the closer and lower, you'd be able to pop it. I just gleaned that from the cockpit as the track file I have to view to get more results. But that's the process I mainly did for Flanker 2.51, place it on the map and experiment with techniques and how it'll operate. So now it just look like the "big sticks" will have to be closer in. Still you can still use the Kh-58 but personally in the Su-25T.... I'd seriously find some cover when firing. That and you'll fight the plane, well as said bro, that's my opinion anyways.

The thing is Ironhand (the actual term, not Rich) is in itself seemingly complex, but on the other hand, quite simple due to the simple precepts that pretty much come out of it:

1. Electronic Warfare is a must (though if you do it right it won't be necessary), a la ECM gear.
2. Generically most systems have a typical launch and flight profile, but then again, the S-300PS/V's are they're own beasts.
3. Radar ranges are drastically reduced the closer you get to the ground, this reflects the Earth's roundness, hence most of the time to get waaay closer than expected despite what's shown on the Mission Editor. But don't take it for granted when you're 2000m+ in the sky, those ranges can look real in seconds!
4. Speed, Maneuverability, Reflexes are what keeps you going. If you're lacking in one aspect, naturally it affects the others. Speed is really depending on where you are at. If you are in an A-10 or the Su-25T then it really doesn't make too much of a difference if you've got terrain. Heck you can still beat most SAMs head on if you use the Reflexes portion. Maneuverability is a relative thing too, as even if I'm jetting in an Su-33, it doesn't make a difference if I'm stalling and I got a missile incoming then I'm just as dead as anybody else.

I mean you're doing great and definitely the reading is always good to pass the time man, so you'll be okay bro ;\)


|My Books | Home Page | http://562.combatace.com/ |
- 'Nearly everyone felt the need to express their views on all wars to me, starting with mine. I found myself thinking, I ate the crap sandwich, you didnt, so please dont tell me how it tastes.' - CPT Cole, US Army
- "...parade ground soldiers always felt that way (contempt) about killers in uniform." -Counting The Cost, Hammer's Slammers
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