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#4505093 - 01/26/20 11:55 PM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: oldgrognard]  
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What strikes me the most about that monologue by Macdonald is that you can’t get much more pacifist than modern day Germany. Heck, a considerable percentage of the population would have no problem with completely getting rid of the military.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 01/26/20 11:55 PM.

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#4505299 - 01/28/20 04:54 PM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: vonBaur]  
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Originally Posted by vonBaur
Originally Posted by Pooch
For a reason that I don't recall, the caravan was detoured.

It was because one of the other conspirators had thrown a grenade at the car earlier, wasn't it?

Yes, there were multiple assassins and they all failed. It was on a later detour after the Archduke's speech that they decided to go to the hospital and visit those hurt form the grenades that they took a wrong turn and stopped right where Princip was standing.

#4505300 - 01/28/20 05:01 PM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: oldgrognard]  
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The Guns of August was already mentioned, but G.J. Meyer's The World Undone also had a large section devoted to the causes of the war.

#4505301 - 01/28/20 05:16 PM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Alternate history can be fun at times to contemplate even though ultimately it proves fruitless since it is impossible for us to take into consideration all of the possible outcomes and factors. For example, had WW1 never occurred, would countries like Germany, Russia and Austria still have their monarchies today? It really is impossible to know with certainty.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4505323 - 01/28/20 08:14 PM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: oldgrognard]  
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If WW1 never occurred, new nations like Czechoslovakia, Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania and part of Poland would never have been created.

#4505334 - 01/28/20 09:25 PM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: oldgrognard]  
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That's not guaranteed. It could have led to marxist rebellions in various regions, or civil war might have broken out. In a way I think that the Great War was more of a catalyst that accelerated developments, but things wouldn't have stayed the same in any case.

#4505348 - 01/28/20 11:39 PM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Here’s another interesting hypothetical historical scenario.

Let’s say Hitler decided to “play nice” and stopped all of his territorial ambitions after the Anschluss with Austria so that means no occupation of the Sudetenland and no invasion of Poland. Would Hitler have stayed in power until he died? For how many decades would Germany have remained a fascist country? For example, Spain remained fascist until Franco died in 1975.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4505486 - 01/30/20 12:46 AM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Here’s another interesting hypothetical historical scenario.

Let’s say Hitler decided to “play nice” and stopped all of his territorial ambitions after the Anschluss with Austria so that means no occupation of the Sudetenland and no invasion of Poland. Would Hitler have stayed in power until he died? For how many decades would Germany have remained a fascist country? For example, Spain remained fascist until Franco died in 1975.

I think that falls into the category of the scorpion and the frog. Hitler was just being true to his nature. He couldn't NOT do what he did.


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#4505491 - 01/30/20 12:58 AM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Yeah, it's similar to all the discussions how Germany could have won WW2 - in the end it always boils down to "if only the Nazis hadn't behaved like total Nazis".

#4505495 - 01/30/20 01:10 AM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Here’s another interesting hypothetical historical scenario.

Let’s say Hitler decided to “play nice” and stopped all of his territorial ambitions after the Anschluss with Austria so that means no occupation of the Sudetenland and no invasion of Poland. Would Hitler have stayed in power until he died? For how many decades would Germany have remained a fascist country? For example, Spain remained fascist until Franco died in 1975.



In such a scenario, the Soviets, riding the wave of Stalin's all-out industrialization and modernization plans since 1929, were steadily increasing in strength and might have become too powerful for the Axis alone to deal had they had been left alone for a few more years.

#4505496 - 01/30/20 01:29 AM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Probably the biggest "IF" about World War One has to do with Communism, in my opinion. If the war hadn't occurred, Russia would not have fallen to the Communists. That means that China, most likely would not have either. Korea, Viet Nam...etc. There would have been no Soviet Union to spread world Communism, no Cold War. Lotsa ifs to ponder as to what would have happened instead.


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#4505497 - 01/30/20 01:34 AM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: oldgrognard]  
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It had enablers in high places, who used it to subvert the Russian Empire and who were capable of doing it elsewhere if needed.

#4505524 - 01/30/20 11:40 AM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: vonBaur]  
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Originally Posted by vonBaur

. Hitler was just being true to his nature. He couldn't NOT do what he did.



This is true since Hitler's ultimate objective was to take most of Eastern Europe and the USSR for his "lebensraum" doctrine.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4505526 - 01/30/20 11:46 AM Re: Cousins might have prevented the First World War [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Also, he was convinced of being fated to an early death, and therefore in a hurry. Which also was a nice excuse to cut all unwelcome discussions short.

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