Me 410A 9/ZG 1

OK. Fran et al, take a loot at the base 410A without shading and highlights. Me 410A1-U2 model by Rotton50 with a few very small realignments my IM.












I still have to add the unit insignia (wooden shoe / clog), paint the wing radiators. There will be a few grey-violet/green skins from the Gruppe Stab too.


Finally, the right nacelle is a bit wonky. It will be fixed by one of the 3dz Boffins (eh Ray) and patched into the finished unit.

I think the swastika needs to be a seperate element, as it is on the original models, and then rotated 45 degrees so it retains the straight lines from the drawing. Just a thought.
BTW your props om the left side are rendering through the engine cowlings.



I'm sorry for being a critic but I think it's the only way to improve this game.

VonBeerhofen

Thank you for the information, but just so you know...

The swastika is a separate element in this model.

For your information the swastika is painted straight up and down first then rotated 45 degrees to the right. It is the size of the low rez tail that causes the problem , not the actual drawing. The swastika is 15 pixels across. If it is any larger it is no longer in the proper scale for the model. The arms are 3 pixels wide and when reoriented lose their definition. In the HR Bf110G skin the swastika is 30 pixels and retains its' shape. So, until this model is truely converted to High Resolution that issue will remain.



The prop arc on the right wing is part of the nacelle problem mentioned in my original post. "Finally, the right nacelle is a bit wonky. It will be fixed by one of the 3dz Boffins (eh Ray) and patched into the finished unit."

It too shall be fixed and patched in.

That's not what I meant Mike,

you have it as a drawing on the tail and it's already rotated, but if you draw the swastika with 90 degree angles (so your drawing plus 45 degrees) and superimpose the element onto the tail it will render much better. Just have a look at some of the original models (Me262). This element sits on top of the model and is transparent, so it can be placed anywhere you like and as many times as you like, using the same drawing.
The same trick was used for the roundels on US airplanes and obviously can be used on many models.
As for Ray's comment on a previous post:



I don't think this paints the entire picture of 3D modelling in EAW, as you can see in the above picture and possibly in many more models. Note the word 'never', which I've heard hundreds of times and never held up to it's promise. It's a good idea but solving such problems require a lot more knowledge, as does creating models from scratch.
You can show a picture of a 'fixed' propellor and not show the tail disappearing at the same time and I've seen all of that in the past.
I don't really care but such models won't make it into my game, inspite of the most awesome skins attached to em.

VonBeerhofen

Sorry, I'm not a 3dz modeler. I paint what is there, not create the model itself.

Well I don't really blame you for it, but you can still improve the swastika, and perhaps the knowledge is usefull for other markings too, as there is plenty of space on the available drawings of a HR plane, especially in 512*512 and your pictures clearly show the available space.




VonBeerhofen

A green version for the Gruppe Stab...





I've cleaned up the prop hubs so the tip has a smaller white cap. That actual machine had a spiral but that is beyond my abilities.

Deano can do them IIRC..

VBH,

My empty" F concept works PERFECTLY for any standard single engine fighter. There is NEVER an R/S problem BETWEEN the various pieces of the model but there can still be R/S problems WITHIN the individual pieces.

For example, when I re-build the ME410 as a Hi-Res version the prop problem will still be there since the conflict in WITHIN the G.3dz. I will have to rebuild that wing as part of the overall project. Even with that, I can bring a Hi-Res model to the community a lot faster than the old method.

If you're interested I can teach it to you. It would be nice to have another designer use it and we could really bang out a bunch of Hi-Res planes in a short time.

Hi Ray.

I know your idea about the F.3dz works for you, and it's a quick way of converting a model to HR, but I still don't understand exactly how you do your trick.

You'll need to do a full write up on how you do these conversions so others can follow in your foot steps.

Over the Christmas break I hope to have time to add all the tools and samples to WOB. I can't do it sooner, because I'm working on a BIG Christmas present for the community, which I want to get posted ASAP.

And no, I'm not going to give any clues to what it exactly is.

Hi Mike,

the camo looks spot on, only some panel adjustments would be necessary. The code "2N" is too big, maybe you have to reduce the lettering to one pixel width.
The white portions of the underwing Balkenkreuz are too small, maybe you´ll have to add at least one pixel. In 1943 Messerschmitt changed towards simplified underwing crosses, so the black trim may be omitted.
It would be good if somebody could add the 3dz for the chin radiators of the DB 603 engines

Ok, John, I'll work on writing up some instructions.

Thanks Fran, those are changes I can make. The 2N code is too big but it loses clarity as it gets smaller. I'll work on that again. It is the same basic problem that crops up with the wooden clog and swastika. The detail on the radiators can be grought out a bit through painting.

I definitely love the Me-410, good job

After a few small changes...

Hi Mike, the Geschwader code "2N" and the individual code share the same horizontal centre line.
Watch this:

The cannon muzzle at the fuselage nose ought to be elliptic:

Hope this helps - good success

Fran, I've got 4 different illustrations that show the 2N code in different locations. I had it centered with the larger version. I'll set it back.

The nose cannon is a different matter, the scale only allows 3 pixels wide (1 x 3) for the front so it won't look correct on this bird until it can go High Rez.

How is this? I moved the 2N and did my best to round off the cannon faring.

Looks good to me, but everything you do looks great.

Hi Mike

Nice looking skins, but they would look even better in 512x512.
Why are you only using 256x256 textures?

Cheers

Looking verrry good, Master Mike
What about a small black shadow behind the prop hubs?
Did I tell you I like the tone of your RLM 74 grüngrau? Exactly that blueish/greenish tinge!
Maybe your RLM 75 grauviolett is a bit too bright, looks more like a late-war RLM 75.The grays ought to be closer together. But anyway, that´s no problem - excellent

I am having problems with the conversions from 256. Then even more problems dropping them back down. That is if they need dropping back down. I'm not quite sure what needs to be done so the skins work.

Fran...
A photo of tha tail of a 110G 74/75



1. Closest match to the photos' Gray-Violet
2. From a RLM color chart (I've used this one).
3. From a digital Luftwaffe color chart 43-45
4. A dark gray

Just remember Mike and Fran, daylight, flash, indoor lighting, aging of all sorts, and interpretation of colours all lead you guys into a long dead end!

There really is no such thing as a standard colour 70 years after the fact.

I've had the same arguments after painting locomotives with Precision Paints.

http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/index.asp

We have an original MkV Spitfire throttle quadrant with three different shades of "British Cockpit Green" on it..

We use Humbrol

OK, what problems?

Have you asked Col. Gibbon about it?

I'm sure he can help getting the 512x512 textures to work.

Cheers

This color debate comes up quite often and once again I want to add that computer monitors are another variable.

I have two PC's right next to each other and the difference in colors of the skins is quite striking.





Mike, my advice is get it close and move on.

By my calculations you have 8,578,344 other skins to do.

Of course all of you are right. My point is not the EXACT colour but the difference between the two camo paints.
Like I´ve said, Mike´s darker gray RLM 74 cannot be made better, but the DIFFERENCE to the brighter RLM 75 is too big IMHO.
Just have a look at those two pics:

Me210A RLM 74/75/76
Bf109G RLM 74/75/76

But it´s no "must" just a "maybe"

Btw, the mysterious one-colour RLM 70 Bf 109s turned out to be a myth. Recent research and work on b/w negatives revealed this as a question of lighting and film development. Those Messerchmitts wore a simple RLM 70/71 splinter camo. Bur with the two green tones rather close together. And such was RLM 74/75, too.
The Bf110G on your photo wears a RLM 75/76 nightfighter camo. But it´s not an original paint, but a British paint.

A German paint producer (Kiroff, Fürth) has mixed the RLM paints according to the original recipes and by using original ingredients. The camo colours obtained this way are used for many modern restorations (The Laatzen Fw 190 e.g. is painted with Kiroff RLMs).

http://www.rlm-farben.de/en.html

Late-War RLM-painted camoes are a problem for themselves. Tha standard for the new RLM 81/82/83/76 could not be established because of the war situation and because of lack of some materials. The paint producers had to use replacement materials - so the RLM 76 underwing colours were looking more yellowish.

The German lacquer industry developed paints which could be used on bare aluminum, i.e. without any primer. As anybody of us know, a paint applied on a bright primer looks different than applied on bare clean aluminum. Only parts of subcontractors, oftenly made from different materials like wood or fabric featured camo paints applied on primers to protect those sensitive materials.

Thus it was possible that one colour applied on the same plane is appearing as completely different on pfotographs - especially on photos using orthochromatic or panchromatic films.

No rivet-counting intended or work-providing for Mike
just an attempt to suggest immersive camo systems


Edit: Mike, just get me right - your darker gray (RLM 74 grüngrau) is MORE than correct, it´s the brighter gray RLM 74 grauviolett which might come out as darker

Fran, how is this one?
Original Gray-Violet

Darker Gray-Violet

Darker No.2

2N+FT with new clog

Pics #1 and #3 would be my favourites - the clog is looking fine, too.
It´s not easy to "paint" in pixel level, isn´t it?
Let 'em shine

Hi John,

Precision Paints on trains - that brings back many happy memories. Still have a couple of dozen tins of train and aircraft paint by them, some of which may be viable. The one I miss the most is the RFC PC10. As I am sure you know this was actually quite a dark brown colour used on upper surfaces, but the cellulose varnish it was covered with made it take on a greenish tint, before it eventually faded almost Khaki. Unfortunately everybody else such as Humbrol and Xtracolour produce a Dark Olive Green (RFC Green) but the Precision one looked more brown and much better to me. They also did a PC12 for aircraft used in the Middle East - much pinker brown.

Don't think anybody will ever get the paints so that everybody agrees they are right - too many variable as we all know - weathering, crews mixing their own variations, colour reproduction on photo's etc, problems with printer inks, and yes as Ray says even the way your monitor is set up. Add to that the so called Scale Colour effect when referring to models so you pays your money and takes your pick. At least I seem to recall that the original Precision sold paints to loco restorers.

Cheers

Peter

a crappy web profile, but it clearly demonstrates
the vagaries of late war german aircraft colours
n markings.....

Like this beauty
http://www.gosshawkunlimited.com/restoredaircraft/fw190d/fw190dhistory.htm

I can't vouch for the spinner color but the wings look very close to the shades I've used on my D-9's.

Guys,
be more than careful with the camo of this particular Fw 190D-13.
Basically this was a RLM 76/75/83 factory-applied camo, the RLM 75 gray areas heavily toned down in the field for ground concealment with heavy mottling of RLM 83 dunkelgrün. The new colour do not match exactly and they´re applied like one would do it on a 1/72 plastic model. Big blotches but neither spraying nor mottling.
The green spinner colour depicting Koomodore Götz´staff machine is definitely wrong. It ought to be RLM 25 hellgrün, some kind of turquoise green, comparable with RAL 6000.
Okay, call me rivet counter

Ermm ok "Your a rivet counter"

If in england get over and take some piccies..
http://members.multimania.co.uk/rafstathan/page39.html

Here are some of the rest of the 24-bit skins...








I'm ready to start the 8-bit conversion of the skins.

here's a scheme i did when ray came out with his
50mm gun version...notice white clog and simplified
fuselage cross...and maybe incorrect spinner colour,
can't find the profile i used for this one, it was
never released due to fran's uncertainty of how
authentic it was.....

Here is what I have on that machine. III ZG 1 was reformed as II ZG 26 in late October 1943 at Hildesheim, Germany



Also, I've taken the Clog emblems off of the skins since they didn'y have them until the unit was reformed as II ZG 26 "Horst Wessel".

big ta IM...

now i'm sure about the spinners and the w.nr:
interesting to note the reverse spinner spiral
on the smaller inset pic....item re clog noted..

Hi Ade,

Mike has covered your query pretty well but here is a copy of an old Profile Publications from around 35 years ago.

Cheers

Peter

thanks for the profiles bootho...

will reskin to 3U+JN 'horst wessel'
looks great...

Hi Ade,

Beware the colours, when the Profile was produced Humbrol had just released their so called "authentic paints" and as far as they were concerned then in Europe there were just the early 65/70/71 Hellblau/Schwarzgrun/Dunkelgrun, RLM 02 Grau, and what they called 74/75/76 Dunkelgrau/Mittlegrau/Hellgrau. Later info suggests Hellgrau should in fact have been 77 and Fran calls 74 Graugrun and 75 Grauviolett I believe. Some time later they produced the late war green and brown option. Not exactly sure if the state of the art at the time the Profile was produced was actually correct, but hey - looks good as you say - for nearly 20 years I painted my kits with those paints and thought they were correct. The later versions I have made may be more accurate. Funny - you would have thought that the earlier paints had the advantage of captured aircraft before they were "restored" and should be right but as Mike and I discovered with the IWM Fw190 that was not always the case. Since then as Fran points out restorers have had paint made up from the original RLM specs so they should be close though there would still be local variations - bit like the green and black "tractor paint" the Russians used on some of their Mig/Yak fighters.

Have fun,

Peter

Hi Spitty,

Oddly enough I have lived about 18 miles away from RAF St Athan for the last 30 years and have visited it a couple of times for air shows, but the ruddy museum was never open - they had a Mitsubishi Ki46-III Dinah as well which I would have liked to have seen. The base effectively closed a few years ago and the 410 is now at Cosford, which is about 120 miles away, but I used to visit when going to see my mother in Yorkshire. Sadly that was before the 410 moved, and mum died last year so it is unlikely I will go to Cosford again. Oh well.

Cheers

Peter

have created new side gun barbettes, and running
with 44' camouflage: RLM74/75/76 - 2./ZG 26 'horst wessel'
for this can opener....

Hi Ade,

That looks OK to me.

Peter

Some details concerning the code position:

http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/Me410-photos.shtml

The position of the "3U" code on the first pic is not regular; the position on the 2nd photo et al. with the "D1" code is correct.

fran...why am i lookin at pics of
D1+IK?

Ade, I thought those pics as just a good example for a late-war bomber, recce or heavy fighter code - not because of the letters "D1", but because of the position of the letters.
The centrelines of the Balkenkreuz and the Geschwader code "3U" should be identical.

Sorry for unclear statements and the subsequent confusion.

Concerning the clog colour I did some research - the clog ought to be yellow with black trim. On underexposed b/w pics the clog appears as white and the black trim is not visible

Merry christmas to all you dedicated skinners who bear the rivet counters patiently

I'm still working on the squadron. I have run into a bit of a problem with the 8-bit version in Glide mode. The 8-bit looks fine in D3D but has strange flipped panels in Glide. I may have to substitute a lower rez model to fix the problem. I have sent a missive to the hanger elves for their observations and suggestions.

it's a can of worms fran...
on the port side the small codes were often positioned
on the first aid hatch cover ......and on the starboard side
also not always on the centre line of the cross...







i notice on these restoration pics the clog is white....
interesting to note all the variations....maybe some
of the painters had hangovers from too much schnapps
the night before!





god help me fran! for a few minutes there i thought i
was turning into a rivet counter!!

IM thanks for your patience m8..

ade

Hey Fran, great pics. I know you were pointing out markings but they will be a great help to me as I upgrade the model to hi-res.

I've broken up the base model so now I can add lots of detail, like actual turrets and more detailed landing gear.

Once that's done I'll have to re-map the damn thing to new textures so it'll take a few weeks until it's ready for Mike's paint shop.

Ray, you weren't kidding about the images. They are a goldmine. I like the last one that appears have a Grayviolet and Graygreen camo. Ooh so nice!

And Ade, I've seen several images that have the small code parallel to the lower quad of the cross. The is (speaking wormy) a bit of wiggle room in the marking of these machines.

Hi guys, skinners and 3dz magicians...
Here´s some christmas advice :
1) Don´t trust skins
2) Don´t trust models
3) DON´T TRUST THOSE BLOODY YANKS AND TOMMIES WHO PAINTED THE POOR original LUFTWAFFE PLANES THE WAY THEY WANTED
4) Only trust photographs - but even those may fail (Orthographic and panchromatic film material e.g.)

Exact colours are a dangerous conjecture - but the position of markings can be recognized clearly.
Concerning the small codes - especially on Me 410s:
-the correct position would be in the middle of the Balkenkreuz - valid for all types
-in case of the Me 410 some crews decided to place the code amidst the maintenance cover on the port side of the fuselage in order to keep it undivided. On the starboard side the small code is placed correctly. Other crews painted it the correct way on both fuselage sides.
- some crews did odd things: E.g. the 3U+CC model is wrong. Original photos show this particular Me 410 as CC+3U!! "3U" as small code in any case.



In my books the "correct code" is prevailing but like always there are exceptions to the rule

And - believe me, the clog is yellow



Patience? No problem. Feel absolutely free to discuss and excuse my comments - no offense intended. A good skin is the best reward

Even reference material can be conflicting.
I've been doing Allied skins for years
and often what I find in reference books
(I have lots) conflict with profile skins
I find on the internet.
Sometimes you just have to bit-the-bullet
and make a choice and finish the skin.

Colours are another difficulty.
I have a new flatscreen monitor and I've spent
sometime trying to get Olive-drab to look right to me.
Now, as I understand it, men mostly, see colours differently.
It has something to do with the number of cones and rods
your eyeballs have and of course your age.

Then of course there is the limited EAW pallet.

So, what are we left with...
YANKS, CANUCKS AND TOMMIES WHO TRY TO PAINT THOSE POOR LUFTWAFFE PLANES THE BEST WAY THEY THINK MIGHT BE CORRECT.

At least, they are skinning which seems to be very few of them these days.

Merry Chirstmas mates
David

Sorry, Skylark, you misunderstood me...
Members of this forum and skinners excluded, naturally. I was thinking of some ignorants painting their 1:1 originals or so-called "restorations". No offense intended

Nooooooo!
Nooooonn!
Neiiiiin!
Neeeeemm!

Heh, heh, one of the very few times I'm glad I decided to stick to 3dz work.

I KNOW what the shape of the plane has to look like.

In any case, thanks for all the great pics. I hope the finished model will withstand the scrutiny.

Heh, if not, I'm sure you guys will help me get it right.

the plot thickens....

while looking for somethin' else i fluked finding this
colour pic of what appears to be red CC...full balkancross
and white clog...

fran, any ideas what outfit this one belongs to?

Pic looks like the ex St Athens one.yes color reproduction wasn,t high on restorers minds back in the old days.Now it is hopefully better.Like the NAAM P61 or this beauty.
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38160&start=90

Hello here are some suggestions for the Me 410 hangar...

Cheers

No problem Fran...
After re-reading your post I see what you were driving at and I agree.
I recently purchased a copy of 'German Fighters' Collector's Edition by Flight Journal
which proves your point perfectly.

I think the best work produced by this community
are those projects that involved a team effort.
Coders, Modders, Skinners and Rivet Counters.

Cheers mate
David

Nice Hangers Kempston.

and heres a couple more! since my orginals from the 2008 release are now obsolete for 128e...


...thought i'd try a redo at 1024x768 reolution with this one considering the attention!

updated as seen ingame now! - merry xmas

Thanks Knegel

Hey FlyRight



Your hangars are cool, you said that they are obsolete for the 1.28E, in my opinion they are not obsolete, if you wanna to upgrade it to 1.28E resize them to 1024*768 and you can add a bar in the bottom (Fly Mission, Plan, Loadout and Back) it can be helpful

thanks! that was a slapped together WIP but the outdated ones i was referring to were from a release 2 years ago...i now updated my previous posted pics as final remakes, i think if you copy them and convert to psp > mpc they shouldn't lose any integrity? - cheers

Surely it does. Something happened to me, I was making hangars for the 1.28, I almost finish my job, later I saw the news in the forum and it apeared the realase of the 1.28d for 1024*764. What I can do with my old hangars then? Start from the begining again so I resized the pictures to 1024*768 and convert them to psp. Some of them lost the integrity when I resized and convert. Not all the images went bad at all.
I found that some pictures good, and it depends of the colors and the quality.
But the best way is redo again, most of my hangars needed to start from the beginning and some not.

I have a question what program did you use to get that bottom effect in your hangars and what is the name of the effect used?

I few profiles I've found.

Low resolution versions of III/JG 27 have been sent to Sandbagger.

8-bit




24-bit



A high resolution set will come when Rotton50 finishes the model...

Tail section and left wing are finished.

About 2 weeks more to finish the 3dz model.