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August 6th, 1945, 75 years later.

Posted By: NoFlyBoy

August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/04/20 07:49 PM

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...n-drop-more-than-two-atomic-bombs-japan/

The day the world changed when the US dropped the first Atomic bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima.

3 days after that another Atomic bomb was dropped on the Japanese city of Nagasaki.

Are there any survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki still living?
Posted By: Catfish

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/04/20 08:00 PM

Yes, one of them is engaged in calling for a banning of nucear arms. Good luck with that.
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20200708_10/
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/07/08/national/a-bomb-setsuko-thurlow-nuke-ban-pact/
Posted By: rwatson

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/04/20 08:00 PM

YEP
https://www.bbc.com/news/in-pictures-53476318

https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/survivors-hiroshima-and-nagasaki
Posted By: NoFlyBoy

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/04/20 08:26 PM

Thank you! I cannot imagine the horror they lived through and the nightmares they had.
Posted By: Ajay

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/04/20 10:48 PM

Read Ruin From the Air
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/04/20 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ajay



Another good read: Retribution: The Battle for Japan, 1944-45

Quote
By the summer of 1944 it was clear that Japan’s defeat was inevitable, but how the drive to victory would be achieved remained to be seen. The ensuing drama—that ended in Japan’s utter devastation—was acted out across the vast stage of Asia, with massive clashes of naval and air forces, fighting through jungles, and barbarities by an apparently incomprehensible foe. In recounting the saga of this time and place, Max Hastings gives us incisive portraits of the theater’s key figures—MacArthur, Nimitz, Mountbatten, Chiang Kai-shek, Mao, Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin. But he is equally adept in his portrayals of the ordinary soldiers and sailors—American, British, Russian, Chinese, and Japanese—caught in some of the war’s bloodiest campaigns.

With unprecedented insight, Hastings discusses Japan’s war against China, now all but forgotten in the West, MacArthur’s follies in the Philippines, the Marines at Iwo Jima and Okinawa, and the Soviet blitzkrieg in Manchuria. He analyzes the decision-making process that led to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki—which, he convincingly argues, ultimately saved lives. Finally, he delves into the Japanese wartime mind-set, which caused an otherwise civilized society to carry out atrocities that haunt the nation to this day.

Retribution is a brilliant telling of an epic conflict from a master military historian at the height of his powers.
Posted By: Pooch

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/04/20 11:23 PM

Oppenhiemer didn't realize the power that he had released until he witnessed what was probably the largest man made explosion in history up until that time, in the New Mexico desert. He thought of a quote from Hindu scripture in the Bhagavad Gita. "I am become death. The Shatterer Of Worlds."
Some of the scientists involved began to have second thoughts. Some thought that, maybe, the Japanese should be shown what the weapon could do and that they would surrender. But I am of the opinion that had it not been used, the invasion of Japan, in November of '45, would have cost many more lives. They would have fought to the last man, woman and child. It would have been the worst bloodbath in history.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/04/20 11:35 PM

+1 Pooch


And to think that all of this could have been avoided had Japan surrendered earlier instead of fanatically fighting until the end. Tojo and Hirohito had plenty of chances so those unfortunate deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were on their hands.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/04/20 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Pooch
Oppenhiemer didn't realize the power that he had released until he witnessed what was probably the largest man made explosion in history up until that time, in the New Mexico desert. He thought of a quote from Hindu scripture in the Bhagavad Gita. "I am become death. The Shatterer Of Worlds."
Some of the scientists involved began to have second thoughts. Some thought that, maybe, the Japanese should be shown what the weapon could do and that they would surrender. But I am of the opinion that had it not been used, the invasion of Japan, in November of '45, would have cost many more lives. They would have fought to the last man, woman and child. It would have been the worst bloodbath in history.



Additionally they were going to execute all the prisoners they held. The quick surrender stopped that from happening. So I count the saving of tens of thousands of prisoners to greatly offset any horror of the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Posted By: Nimits

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/06/20 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Pooch
Some thought that, maybe, the Japanese should be shown what the weapon could do and that they would surrender. But I am of the opinion that had it not been used, the invasion of Japan, in November of '45, would have cost many more lives. They would have fought to the last man, woman and child. It would have been the worst bloodbath in history.


That is not really an opinion. The Japanese army in particular was barely phased by the first atomic bomb, and even after two of Japan's cities had been burned to ashes many in the Japanese upper ranks were advocating for continuing the war. The atomic bombs (couple of the Soviet declaration of war ending the Japanese fantasy that the Soviets were going to broker a negotiated peace between Japan and the western Allies) gave the peace faction the political will necessary to end the war, but it would be ridiculous to suggest that a neutral demonstration would have given the Japanese government the same shock.
Posted By: CyBerkut

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/06/20 01:53 PM

This thread should probably be in PWEC, but we'll see how it goes.

Some useful context provided in this article:
https://townhall.com/columnists/vic...al-august-debate-over-the-bombs-n2573760
Posted By: NoFlyBoy

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/06/20 02:02 PM

There were couple online articles this week saying Japan surrendered not because of the 2 atomic bombs, but because Russia declared war on them and the Japanese were more afraid of the Russians than the Americans .
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/06/20 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
There were couple online articles this week saying Japan surrendered not because of the 2 atomic bombs, but because Russia declared war on them and the Japanese were more afraid of the Russians than the Americans .


That is indeed a possibility since the Japanese army knew that they stood no chance against the Soviet steam-roller in Manchuria in 1945.
Posted By: Pooch

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/06/20 02:41 PM

Nimits, I'm not the one making the "rediculous" suggestion that the bomb should have been demonstrated to the Japanese. It was made by some scientists who were part of the Manhattan Project. And I also don't understand what it was that I wrote which "is not really an opinion." Clarify.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/06/20 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
There were couple online articles this week saying Japan surrendered not because of the 2 atomic bombs, but because Russia declared war on them and the Japanese were more afraid of the Russians than the Americans .


That is indeed a possibility since the Japanese army knew that they stood no chance against the Soviet steam-roller in Manchuria in 1945.



The Soviets had little capability to direct any meaningful attack against the Japanese home islands.

Only the US had the capability of launching a massive amphibious assault against the Japanese home islands.

Only the US could mount massive bombing raids against the Japanese home islands, conventional and nuclear.

Only the US could completely cut off and starve out the Japanese home islands with submarines and air dropped naval mines.

And I'm pretty sure the Japanese were well aware of this.
Posted By: Pooch

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/06/20 05:15 PM

When Hirohito made his announcement to the Japanese about their country surrendering to the Allies, he said,

"The enemy has deployed a new most cruel bomb that could result not just in the obliteration of the nation but the total extinction of human civilisation." There is good reason to suspect that the Bombs were his primary reasons for ending the war.
The timing of Russia's entry into the war against Japan was no accident, I think. Stalin had a spy in the Manhattan Project. He knew the weapon was about to be used. He had to get into the war on Japan or the Soviet Union would not gain any land concessions from the Japanese.
Posted By: BD-123

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/06/20 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
There were couple online articles this week saying Japan surrendered not because of the 2 atomic bombs, but because Russia declared war on them and the Japanese were more afraid of the Russians than the Americans .


That is indeed a possibility since the Japanese army knew that they stood no chance against the Soviet steam-roller in Manchuria in 1945.



The Soviets had little capability to direct any meaningful attack against the Japanese home islands.

Only the US had the capability of launching a massive amphibious assault against the Japanese home islands.

Only the US could mount massive bombing raids against the Japanese home islands, conventional and nuclear.

Only the US could completely cut off and starve out the Japanese home islands with submarines and air dropped naval mines.

And I'm pretty sure the Japanese were well aware of this.


The problem is the Japanese High Command weren't aware of anything that wasn't part of their plan. They continued to fight the war without deviating from a rigid strategy from the first setbacks, without adapting to the situation as the war progressed. Further hampered by interservice rivalry and dismissing all Humint and sigint as the 'chattering of old women'. Therefore they overestimated the Soviet threat and tied up millions of troops in Manchuria, idle apart from exploitation and persecution of the populace. Adding to the 30 million dead there whom apologists for the use of the bombs tend to overlook in their outrage.
The atomic bombs often seem to be considered in isolation because of their immediate carnage and destruction, the Japanese people had suffered higher losses of centres of population primarly constructed of wood with war industries interspersed. And still the blinkered and rigid command would not give in.
I perceive the most egregious error of the Japanese Navy was the lack of offence against or defence of merchant shipping, not considered an honourable action within the interpreation of Bushido.
Posted By: wormfood

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/07/20 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer

And to think that all of this could have been avoided had Japan surrendered earlier instead of fanatically fighting until the end. Tojo and Hirohito had plenty of chances so those unfortunate deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were on their hands.


I don't know if they could have surrendered earlier. They were still split on surrendering, and they didn't try to contact the US or UK about surrendering. They did try to contact Russia, who ignored them, up until they declared war on Japan.
Posted By: NoFlyBoy

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/07/20 05:01 AM

Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/07/20 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by wormfood


I don't know if they could have surrendered earlier. They were still split on surrendering, and they didn't try to contact the US or UK about surrendering. They did try to contact Russia, who ignored them, up until they declared war on Japan.



The point of my previous post wasn't about whether or not the Japanese leadership could agree among themselves to surrender earlier but rather that the ethical/moral onus was on them and not the US for the consequences of the atomic bombs.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/07/20 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by BD-123

I perceive the most egregious error of the Japanese Navy was the lack of offence against or defence of merchant shipping, not considered an honourable action within the interpreation of Bushido.



That attitude was not so different from the way the Royal Navy perceived the submarine during WW1 but at least that initial attitude changed quickly for quite pressing pragmatic reasons.
Posted By: Pooch

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/07/20 03:57 PM

This type of thinking was rampant back then. As the services were modernizing, a lot of the old guard could not accept the changes. The refusal to believe that airplanes would ever take an important part in warfare, for instance. The old battleship admirals who refused to accept the fact that the aircraft carrier could ever overshadow their vessels in a sea battle. Cavalry officers who were reluctant to give up their horses for tanks.
But the Japanese were worse, in some ways, because they were still mired in their 19th century thinking even into the 1940's. The country had entered the modern age in an amazingly short period of time. The Western world forced itself upon the Japanese in the 1850's when Admiral Perry showed up with his fleet. By the turn of the century they had a modern navy and army and took on the Russians!
Japan was like a child that had been forced to grow up too fast. Wanting to be an adult, but still in some ways, having the mind of a child. A gross oversimplification, I know, but I see them that way sometimes.
Their insistance on sticking to the old ways definately contributed to the country's defeat.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/07/20 04:05 PM

Great post Pooch and I agree with your analogy.
Posted By: NoFlyBoy

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/10/20 07:50 PM

Did the USA had more than 2 Atomic bombs?
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/10/20 09:50 PM

That was laid out very well.
Posted By: Ajay

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/10/20 10:42 PM

Just watched that yesterday myself.
Posted By: NoFlyBoy

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/06/22 06:25 PM

First time I see this

Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/08/22 02:47 AM

What's your fascination with reviving so many dead threads? Just curious.
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/08/22 08:03 AM

As for the question how many bombs the USA had at that time, there is a transcript of a phone call available where some responsible general or some such at length explains that they are capable to produce 7 bombs over two months.
Except he keeps explaining it rather complicated on a per month basis, one month they can produce three ot four bombs. After a month producing four, the next month they are only able to produce three, and vice versa...
(I remembered 9 every two months, but adapted it to the numbers proviuded in the link below)

Edit: Googled a llitte bit, didn't find the transcript I had in mind, but a memorandum by general Groves:
Bomb Production Schedule 1945
Quote
4. The final components of the first gun type bomb have arrived at Tinian, those of the first implosion type should leave San Francisco by airplane early on 30 July. I see no reason to change our previous readiness predictions on the first three bombs. In September, we should have three or four bombs. One of these will be made from 235 material and will have a smaller effectiveness, about two-thirds that of the test type, but by November, we should be able to bring this up to full power. There should be either four or three bombs in October, one of the lesser size. In November, there should be at least five bombs and the rate will rise to seven in December and increase decidedly in early 1946.


Eidt 2: If you really want to dig into primary sources on the whole Manhattan Project, the politics around it, and even some MAGIC transcript of Japanese reactions, check this page out:
The Atomic Bomb and the End of WW2

Edit 3: Here is the transcript of the telephone call I had in mind )from the list of documents in the link above):
Call Gen. Hull w. Col. Seaman August 13th 1945
"One every ten days."
Posted By: Chucky

Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. - 08/08/22 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
What's your fascination with reviving so many dead threads? Just curious.


You don't have him on ignore yet? I can thoroughly recommend it smile
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