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Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down

Posted By: Haggart

Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/10/19 02:45 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/10/africa/ethiopia-airline-crash-nairobi-intl/index.html

According to the Ethio­pian Airlines chief executive, Tewolde Gebremariam, the flight took off at 8:38 a.m. and lost contact six minutes later, crashing near the city of Bishoftu less than 40 miles to the southeast of Addis Ababa.
All 157 people on board the Ethiopian Airlines flight that crashed soon after taking off from Addis Ababa have been killed.

“The pilot mentioned he had difficulty and he wanted to return and he was given clearance,” he said.

“It is a brand new airplance, it had no technical remarks and was flown by a senior pilot,” he added.

The airline said the plane was a Boeing 737 Max 8, the same model aircraft involved in the Indonesian Lion Air crash in October in which the plane plunged into the sea shortly after take off and killing 189.

Boeing Issues Safety Warning After Fatal 737 Max Nosedive ..... Nov 7, 2018
https://www.wired.com/story/boeing-safety-warning-737-max-nosedive/

Posted By: Sluggish Controls

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/10/19 04:09 PM

Tragic. The airframe was only 4 months old.
First images show a crater and nothing much more than tiny bits scattered all around :-/

Slug
Posted By: Chaz

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/10/19 04:23 PM

FlightRadar24 says: "vertical speed was unstable after take off."

[Linked Image]

More info: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a&opt=0



Second MAX to go down since October. This Ethiopian Captain was senior and well experienced. Just gonna be blunt. Boeing has some serious questions to answer for these families. I smell a potential MAX grounding pending further review just like the B787 experienced in 2013.
Posted By: Mr_Blastman

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/11/19 02:43 PM

None of the news outlets are reporting that this plane was only four months old. Is this true?
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/11/19 03:42 PM

Several countries have grounded the a/c.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/11/19 03:47 PM

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-...eristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/

from a pilots forum ...... "IF this is the *MCAS fault again*, then the consequences will be enormous, probably a grounding of the MAX fleet."

Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/12/19 05:48 PM

I made a thread a few months back about the very low number of hours co-pilots had in some airlines. The one in this accident was one of those 200 hour pilots I mentioned. May have no bearing on what happened.
Posted By: EAF331 MadDog

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/12/19 07:50 PM

Considering that Boeing has issued a statement that they will be patching some critical systems can point to it being partly software-related.
https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-releases-statements?item=130402

The US is about the only country not banning MAX 8 from their airspaces or grounding their fleets right now.
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/12/19 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by oldgrognard
I made a thread a few months back about the very low number of hours co-pilots had in some airlines. The one in this accident was one of those 200 hour pilots I mentioned. May have no bearing on what happened.

Is that total hours or hours on type? There was someone else asking about that and thought the hours were on the low side for a co-pilot.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 01:19 AM

Nov 2018 ...... two U.S. pilots flying a domestic flight 737 max 8 reported a sudden attempt of the airplane to go nose down and they fought to keep this commercial flight from doing so. But this is not the only documented incident like this in U.S. flight records of this model aircraft.

"Pilots in the U.S. complained at least 5 times in recent months about problems controlling their Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets during critical moments of flight, federal records show, adding to questions raised by deadly crashes involving that model of jetliner in Ethiopia and Indonesia. Some of the incidents appear to involve the same anti-stall system that has come up as a potential cause of October's Indonesia crash, according to a review of a Federal Aviation Administration incident database that lets pilots self-report trouble."

They had a software fix for the issue back in January but because of the government shutdown the implementation of this fix has been delayed.
Posted By: Mr_Blastman

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 02:53 AM

If they negligently didn't press all customers to install the fix, and knew of this, Boeing should have hell to pay. A hundred and fifty people did not have to die. Three million a family will not be enough. This should cost them billions and some executives should see prison time for manslaughter charges.
Posted By: Chaz

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by Haggart
Nov 2018 ...... two U.S. pilots flying a domestic flight 737 max 8 reported a sudden attempt of the airplane to go nose down and they fought to keep this commercial flight from doing so. But this is not the only documented incident like this in U.S. flight records of this model aircraft.

"Pilots in the U.S. complained at least 5 times in recent months about problems controlling their Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets during critical moments of flight, federal records show, adding to questions raised by deadly crashes involving that model of jetliner in Ethiopia and Indonesia. Some of the incidents appear to involve the same anti-stall system that has come up as a potential cause of October's Indonesia crash, according to a review of a Federal Aviation Administration incident database that lets pilots self-report trouble."

They had a software fix for the issue back in January but because of the government shutdown the implementation of this fix has been delayed.


Do you have a link with this statement? First I've heard of MAX issues in the U.S. so I'm curious. Southwest and American are the predominent U.S. airlines currently operating the MAX.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by Chaz
Originally Posted by Haggart
Nov 2018 ...... two U.S. pilots flying a domestic flight 737 max 8 reported a sudden attempt of the airplane to go nose down and they fought to keep this commercial flight from doing so. But this is not the only documented incident like this in U.S. flight records of this model aircraft.

"Pilots in the U.S. complained at least 5 times in recent months about problems controlling their Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets during critical moments of flight, federal records show, adding to questions raised by deadly crashes involving that model of jetliner in Ethiopia and Indonesia. Some of the incidents appear to involve the same anti-stall system that has come up as a potential cause of October's Indonesia crash, according to a review of a Federal Aviation Administration incident database that lets pilots self-report trouble."

They had a software fix for the issue back in January but because of the government shutdown the implementation of this fix has been delayed.


Do you have a link with this statement? First I've heard of MAX issues in the U.S. so I'm curious. Southwest and American are the predominent U.S. airlines currently operating the MAX.


https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/12/pilots-boeing-737-1266090

Boeing plans to make major changes to the flight control systems on the 737 MAX aircraft — just months after delaying a similar software fix due to failed negotiations with the FAA, a report says.
Sources briefed on the talks told The Wall Street Journal that federal regulators determined that the delay was acceptable because its experts believed there was no imminent safety threat, as did Boeing’s. According to the WSJ, US officials have also blamed part of the delay on this year’s government shutdown — saying it halted work for at least five weeks.

https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/boeing-to-update-737-maxs-after-delaying-changes-for-months/
Posted By: Sluggish Controls

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
None of the news outlets are reporting that this plane was only four months old. Is this true?


Apparently. Multiple media sources.
Delivered to the airline Nov 15 ‘18 (mentioned right below the map). I was a bit off, but not by much https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47513508

Slug
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 05:38 AM

there are only about 58 737 Max 8's in the entire U.S. ..... owned by both American Airlines and SW Airlines. Canada also has some ..... WestJet Airlines, Air Canada

Delta Airlines does not fly any Max 8's
Posted By: Roudou

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Haggart

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/12/pilots-boeing-737-1266090

Boeing plans to make major changes to the flight control systems on the 737 MAX aircraft — just months after delaying a similar software fix due to failed negotiations with the FAA, a report says.
Sources briefed on the talks told The Wall Street Journal that federal regulators determined that the delay was acceptable because its experts believed there was no imminent safety threat, as did Boeing’s. According to the WSJ, US officials have also blamed part of the delay on this year’s government shutdown — saying it halted work for at least five weeks.

https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/boeing-to-update-737-maxs-after-delaying-changes-for-months/


Maybe i missunderstand this article, but it's totaly non sense to me. Boeing is not a private company ? How the shutdown has something to do with that delay ? About the FAA, I find it strange, but not unbelievable. But if it is true, I hope the NTSB reports will change some minds.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Roudou
How the shutdown has something to do with that delay ? .



FAA is a Federal government agency and much of its staff was furloughed during the shutdown.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Roudou
Originally Posted by Haggart

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/12/pilots-boeing-737-1266090

Boeing plans to make major changes to the flight control systems on the 737 MAX aircraft — just months after delaying a similar software fix due to failed negotiations with the FAA, a report says.
Sources briefed on the talks told The Wall Street Journal that federal regulators determined that the delay was acceptable because its experts believed there was no imminent safety threat, as did Boeing’s. According to the WSJ, US officials have also blamed part of the delay on this year’s government shutdown — saying it halted work for at least five weeks.

https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/boeing-to-update-737-maxs-after-delaying-changes-for-months/


Maybe i missunderstand this article, but it's totaly non sense to me. Boeing is not a private company ? How the shutdown has something to do with that delay ? About the FAA, I find it strange, but not unbelievable. But if it is true, I hope the NTSB reports will change some minds.


First and foremost it needs to be understood that Boeing for many years has had a very close relationship with the FAA. Perhaps a bit - too close.
Posted By: Roudou

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 01:48 PM

I missunderstood the article.

I've re read it. Yeah, it seems more like the case of Airbus pitot heat malfounction. "No need to fix it, there is no crash yet." Boeing and FAA found the perfect guilty in the shutdown, in my opinion.
Posted By: Wigean

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Alicatt
Originally Posted by oldgrognard
I made a thread a few months back about the very low number of hours co-pilots had in some airlines. The one in this accident was one of those 200 hour pilots I mentioned. May have no bearing on what happened.

Is that total hours or hours on type? There was someone else asking about that and thought the hours were on the low side for a co-pilot.


That`s total hours.
I think it is insane to let a pilot with so few flighthours sit in the right seat of such an advanced aircraft.
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 03:54 PM

as i said before in the thread about the previous crash, it still sounds like the pilots failed to just put their hand on the trim wheel, and they didn't hit the trim cutout switch

but that was that time - this is now. boeing has a lot of hell to pay for not addressing what was even then, clearly a badly designed system. they had months to prepare an update to make the aircraft flyable for pilots of lesser ability and those without the additional training that obviously everyone on a MAX should have taken

but ultimately it's hard for me to place all the blame on boeing when an incident like this happens so soon after the first crash. yes, the design is #%&*$#, but every pilot in a MAX should have been aware of this even just from hearing the news, and they should have known exactly what to do when things started looking like a runaway trim scenario. bad bad flying.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 04:30 PM

Federal records show that U.S. pilots filed complaints about the Max8 ......8 months before the Ethiopian crash

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-pilots-complained-about-boeing-737-max-8-months-n982651

"I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?" one pilot wrote in a complaint about the Boeing 737 Max 8.
Posted By: Mr_Blastman

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 04:43 PM

I think the FAA is making a mistake by not grounding this plane.
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 05:00 PM

it should be grounded everywhere until training is completed and software upgrades are installed and verified installed on every single aircraft produced and in production
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 05:41 PM

What was the report about smoke and fire in the air ?
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by oldgrognard
What was the report about smoke and fire in the air ?

It was reported by a couple of farmers that saw the aircraft.

Quote
Several witnesses who worked in the farmland below the plane's flight path told the Reuters news agency they heard loud rattling noises coming from the aircraft and saw billows of smoke and debris in its wake as it made a low turn over the fields.
"When it was hovering, fire was following its tail, then it tried to lift its nose," said one witness, Gadisa Benti. "When it passed over our house, the nose pointed down and the tail raised up. It went straight to the ground with its nose, it then exploded."


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47521744
Posted By: Wigean

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 07:03 PM

President Trump has ordered to ground Boeing 737 MAX 8.
Posted By: Chaz

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Wigean
President Trump has ordered to ground Boeing 737 MAX 8.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna982811

It's the right thing to do. Too many lives have been lost in such a short span. The FAA has waited too long before reacting and fixing a problem.
Posted By: EAF331 MadDog

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 08:45 PM

Boeing has also asked all airlines to ground their 737 Max 8s now.
Posted By: BlueHeron

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 09:02 PM

Wow, they must have found something really significant in the investigation. The reactions yesterday by Canada, US and Boeing were nothing like what we're seeing today.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 09:58 PM

But the Boeing BA stock closed up today.
Posted By: Mr_Blastman

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/13/19 10:05 PM

Not buying any shares... yet.
Posted By: Sluggish Controls

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/14/19 04:17 AM

About time, all 737 MAX 8 grounded.
Similarities between the 2 recent crashes are now emerging in the investigation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

Slug
Posted By: Blade_RJ

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/14/19 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
as i said before in the thread about the previous crash, it still sounds like the pilots failed to just put their hand on the trim wheel, and they didn't hit the trim cutout switch

but that was that time - this is now. boeing has a lot of hell to pay for not addressing what was even then, clearly a badly designed system. they had months to prepare an update to make the aircraft flyable for pilots of lesser ability and those without the additional training that obviously everyone on a MAX should have taken

but ultimately it's hard for me to place all the blame on boeing when an incident like this happens so soon after the first crash. yes, the design is #%&*$#, but every pilot in a MAX should have been aware of this even just from hearing the news, and they should have known exactly what to do when things started looking like a runaway trim scenario. bad bad flying.


sure its always the pilot fault ... did you already forget that case when the pilot was locked out of manual because the automated system though he was making a mistake and continued to pitch the plane ?
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/15/19 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Blade_RJ


sure its always the pilot fault ... did you already forget that case when the pilot was locked out of manual because the automated system though he was making a mistake and continued to pitch the plane ?


it doesn't lock the pilot out of anything.

there's a physical link from the trim wheel to the moving control surfaces.

all you need to do is hold the wheel. it will stop moving. as far as i know this has always been boeing's policy.

besides that, right by the trim wheel are two cutout switches that can turn the thing off completely.

there are also a number of breakers on the rear overhead panel or bulkhead that can accomplish the same thing and more if the situation allows enough time to pull them.

boeing diverged from its philosophy of allowing the pilot to manually override anything with physical force on the control column with this series of aircraft and it has clearly not been implemented well.

but ultimately i still think that this crew's lack of familiarity with flying in general (200 hour copilot?) was probably a major contributor to this crash. not absolving boeing at all - their system sucks. but every 737 pilot in the world should have known to hit the trim cutout switches after the first crash, and grabbing the wildly spinning, clacking trim wheel ought to be an instinct for any pilot with ears. they were probably literally twiddling their thumbs trying to get the trim to work on their yokes like in the first crash. 200 hours is not enough to fly a commercial jet. it's more of a burden to whoever's in the left seat than anything.
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/16/19 08:11 AM

There is a video of the operation of the trim system in this video:

Posted By: Meatsheild

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/16/19 10:50 AM

i was just about to post that, it looked like it required a fair bit of force to stop it spinning and you have to actually hold it or it just keeps spinning... what if you have other buttons to press? yea there might be 2 people up front but considering the pilot will be busy looking out the windows with both hands on the controls and the co pilot will prolly be troubleshooting as well ... to me it just seems like an un needed stupid system
Posted By: Nixer

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/16/19 01:44 PM

Great info from real pilots HERE

Boeing’s design deficiency [JF note: having the MCAS rely on a single data source, the “angle of attack” indicator, without backup or comparative sensors] sets up the need for pilot training on how to overcome it.

-Boeing’s failure to highlight the change resulted in no specific MCAS pilot training.

Those two big mistakes, it now appears, likely caused two tragic major catastrophes. Shame on Boeing if the final analysis bears these points out.

The corrective action is simple and within the capabilities of any competent airline captain to execute. Certainly easier than dealing with an engine fire or loss of multiple hydraulic systems.

There is a broad spectrum of abilities in any group of pilots, and without an emphasis training, some of them will be unable to overcome the design deficiency, even if the emergency procedure is simple to carry out. All the lights and buzzers going off will freeze the less capable pilot who has not been trained to drill down to what is going on, and to flip the switch. Training has to be to the lowest level of ability, if you’re operating an airline with any significant number of pilots. They all can't be Sully Sullenbergers.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/18/19 12:09 PM

Not sure why federal prosecutors would be investigating the development of the Max8 or is this routine stuff with air crashes ?
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/18/19 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by oldgrognard
But the Boeing BA stock closed up today.

3% down today Edit: that was this morning, now down 10%

Reports saying investigators are now looking into the FAA's approval process for the MAX-8 as well as the extra training given to pilots on the differences between the standard 737 and the Max-8 version being only 56 minutes and on an iPad.

Not the link I first read it in this morning but contains similar info https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing...-scrutiny-ethiopian-airways-et302-crash/
Posted By: HeinKill

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/18/19 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by ... but not from ... Nixer
The corrective action is simple and within the capabilities of any competent airline captain to execute. Certainly easier than dealing with an engine fire or loss of multiple hydraulic systems.


I guess that's true, but most aircraft (I hope!) don't have a known design flaw which increases the likelihood of engine fire or loss of hydraulic systems. As I understand, the repositioning of the bigger engines in the Max 8 created a propensity for the machine to pitch nose up, so the MCAS was a kludge, created to help compensate for that design flaw.

OK, I'll say it - a better design option would have been to design a plane that didn't have a propensity to pitch nose up! Back to the drawing board Boeing!

H
Posted By: Nixer

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/18/19 05:28 PM

That quote was from the article I linked, not mine, FWIW.

A runaway trim switch would have put me into a full panic if somehow I was transported into a cockpit seat in that airplane.
Posted By: Blade_RJ

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/18/19 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
Originally Posted by Blade_RJ


sure its always the pilot fault ... did you already forget that case when the pilot was locked out of manual because the automated system though he was making a mistake and continued to pitch the plane ?


it doesn't lock the pilot out of anything.

there's a physical link from the trim wheel to the moving control surfaces.

all you need to do is hold the wheel. it will stop moving. as far as i know this has always been boeing's policy.

besides that, right by the trim wheel are two cutout switches that can turn the thing off completely.

there are also a number of breakers on the rear overhead panel or bulkhead that can accomplish the same thing and more if the situation allows enough time to pull them.

boeing diverged from its philosophy of allowing the pilot to manually override anything with physical force on the control column with this series of aircraft and it has clearly not been implemented well.

but ultimately i still think that this crew's lack of familiarity with flying in general (200 hour copilot?) was probably a major contributor to this crash. not absolving boeing at all - their system sucks. but every 737 pilot in the world should have known to hit the trim cutout switches after the first crash, and grabbing the wildly spinning, clacking trim wheel ought to be an instinct for any pilot with ears. they were probably literally twiddling their thumbs trying to get the trim to work on their yokes like in the first crash. 200 hours is not enough to fly a commercial jet. it's more of a burden to whoever's in the left seat than anything.



what did i say ? https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/18/18270910/boeing-faa-investigation-max-8-mcas-trump

Quote
Boeing’s safety assessment of MCAS understated the system’s power and failed to account for how it could reset itself after each time a pilot responded. Black box data retrieved after the Lion Air crash indicates that a single faulty sensor triggered MCAS multiple times during the deadly flight. This led to a struggle between the pilots and the plane, as the system repeatedly pushed the nose of the plane down and the pilots wrestled with the controls to pull it back up before the final crash.


This is on boing lap, and its not the first time...They blamed the pilots in previous accidents, i hope they are responsibilized here
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/19/19 02:37 AM

This time? Sorry, but I think the Ethiopian Airline pilots were more responsible than the Lion Air pilots. Regardless what was known or not known before Lion Air went down, the issue became public knowledge in its wake. I'm not an airline pilot and I knew about it. If the Ethiopian Airlines pilots didn't, it's on them.

I used to skydive. Membership in the USPA came with a subscription to Parachutist Magazine. And every month, the first thing I looked for, even before the cool pictures, was the incident reports. Knowing what someone else did wrong is the best way to make sure you don't do the same thing. They shoulda known. And the airline shouda made sure they knew.
Posted By: Blade_RJ

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/19/19 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by vonBaur
This time? Sorry, but I think the Ethiopian Airline pilots were more responsible than the Lion Air pilots. Regardless what was known or not known before Lion Air went down, the issue became public knowledge in its wake. I'm not an airline pilot and I knew about it. If the Ethiopian Airlines pilots didn't, it's on them.

I used to skydive. Membership in the USPA came with a subscription to Parachutist Magazine. And every month, the first thing I looked for, even before the cool pictures, was the incident reports. Knowing what someone else did wrong is the best way to make sure you don't do the same thing. They shoulda known. And the airline shouda made sure they knew.


Did i read that wrong then ?what i understood is that the system continually pulled control from the pilot even though the pilot was doing the procedure to take back control....i can't see how that is the pilot fault in this scenario, that would be like you hitting break but the car continually cutting the fluid every time you hit the break.
What else could the pilot do ?
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 12:42 AM

The system is designed to nose over in case of an approaching stall. Apparently, sometimes it will misread the airflow on takeoff (steep angle of attack and relatively low airspeed) and interpret it as an approaching stall. The procedure is to turn off the system and return complete control of the aircraft to the pilot. The switch is located on the console between the pilot and copilot. And I don't fly these things. I don't fly anything except computers.

As I stated, the Lion Air pilots may have been able to be excused, because I've heard several people say it was only addressed initially by a small blurb in the flight manual, easily overlooked. But after that incident the issue, and the correction, were all over the news. At this point it would be like your receiving a recall notice about the brakes on your car but not taking your car in for the fix. Sure, there was a design flaw, but you were told about it and and ignored the warning.

I would also lay significant blame on whomever at the airline was responsible for making sure that all of their pilots were aware of this and knew what to do.
Posted By: HeinKill

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by vonBaur
Sure, there was a design flaw, but you were told about it and ignored the warning.


Or also, that the warning and training was inadequate perhaps? Heard an interview on Australian radio with a Virgin Airlines Australia executive who said the Boeing re-training package comprised a 45min video and a powerpoint deck.

H
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 02:34 PM

Trying to find answers in the emergency procedures manual.

Quote
JAKARTA/SINGAPORE/PARIS (Reuters) - The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...earch-for-fix-sources-idUSKCN1R10FB?il=0

Lack of training or something deeper in the software?
Posted By: adlabs6

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Alicatt
Trying to find answers in the emergency procedures manual.

Quote
JAKARTA/SINGAPORE/PARIS (Reuters) - The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...earch-for-fix-sources-idUSKCN1R10FB?il=0

Lack of training or something deeper in the software?


An interesting read:
https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/
Posted By: Mr_Blastman

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Alicatt
Trying to find answers in the emergency procedures manual.

Quote
JAKARTA/SINGAPORE/PARIS (Reuters) - The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...earch-for-fix-sources-idUSKCN1R10FB?il=0

Lack of training or something deeper in the software?


Too much "rules and procedures" and not enough "stick and rudder" training. If the ground is getting closer, by God pull up!

I see our youth too often being taught to regurgitate and recite rather than think and create. Perhaps this problem isn't endemic to America alone.

Alas, not every pilot can be Chuck Yeager, but more of a fundamental understanding of gadget-free flight training would be a boon to all commercial pilots. Basic understanding of stick, rudder, trim wheels and throttle would be a good place to start.

This doesn't absolve Boeing of potential culpability. More data needs to be collected and processed.
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 04:28 PM


Very interesting

Quote
After the Lion Air Flight 610 crash, Boeing for the first time provided to airlines details about MCAS.


That is telling, and along with the next statement -

Quote
Boeing’s bulletin to the airlines stated that the limit of MCAS’s command was 2.5 degrees.
That number was new to FAA engineers who had seen 0.6 degrees in the safety assessment.
“The FAA believed the airplane was designed to the 0.6 limit, and that’s what the foreign regulatory authorities thought, too,” said an FAA engineer. “It makes a difference in your assessment of the hazard involved.”


Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 04:33 PM

About the black boxes and cockpit recorders.

https://www.wired.com/story/boeing-737-max-8-ethiopia-crash-black-box-data-lion-air/
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Alicatt

Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


Still, holding the trim wheel stops the trim physically and also resets the MCAS timer delay.

It's never so busy that both crew members need to be hitting all kinds of buttons with both hands at the same time - both incidents could have been avoided if someone had grabbed the trim wheel. It can also be forced back to neutral with a strong grip, even if the yoke trim switch is not listening to you.

Lookie here, this video is from 2016, way before the MAX trouble started.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQirIH_DuAs

There are also good old stick and rudder techniques (Cross controls, lots of rudder) that let you hold up (Or down, if necessary) the nose of just about any airplane regardless of how screwed up the trim is. Changing engine thrust can also help. Rudders on big jets are very powerful, and with careful banking it is possible to rescue a very screwed up aircraft. I'm sure any of you who ever got your airplane shot up in old WW2 simulators have some experience nursing a plane back like this. Airshow pilots do this often as well. 200 hour copilots in a brand new jet.. not so much.

Boeing really screwed up, but I think the reason we haven't seen accidents like this in Europe and North America is because the pilot standards are way higher and the overall total flight times of the crews are way higher in general, and more evenly split between the two pilots flying.
Posted By: adlabs6

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Alicatt
Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


If I understand the article correctly, it's interesting that the MCAS maximum of 2.5 degrees correction was reset and applied again, each time the pilots disable the system, and it auto-restarted. IIRC the article said this cycle happened 21 times over the course of those final minutes.

I wonder how this looks from the pilot's perspective, compared to a trim runaway? The trim wheel isn't just spinning continuously... a good part of the time, the wheel would be stopped, it would seem. Ratcheting up in small increments, over and over, and as you mention, with a cumulative input value greater than could be manually commanded.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 08:56 PM

And now it's being reported that a pilot catching a ride in the jumpseat of an airliner prevented a similar disaster by switching the MCAS off the day before the Lion Air crash. Meaning that someone knew even then how to recognize the symptoms and correct the problem. So the information was out there. It's a question of whether or not you care enough to take it seriously.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by vonBaur
And now it's being reported that a pilot catching a ride in the jumpseat of an airliner prevented a similar disaster by switching the MCAS off the day before the Lion Air crash. Meaning that someone knew even then how to recognize the symptoms and correct the problem. So the information was out there. It's a question of whether or not you care enough to take it seriously.



And I believe I read that a maintenance issue with the Lion Air jet was the root cause of the MCAS engaging, IE MCAS only thought the aircraft was approaching a stall because of a faulty AoA reading that was a result of poor maintenance of the instrumentation/sensors.
Posted By: Blade_RJ

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by adlabs6
Originally Posted by Alicatt
Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


If I understand the article correctly, it's interesting that the MCAS maximum of 2.5 degrees correction was reset and applied again, each time the pilots disable the system, and it auto-restarted. IIRC the article said this cycle happened 21 times over the course of those final minutes.

I wonder how this looks from the pilot's perspective, compared to a trim runaway? The trim wheel isn't just spinning continuously... a good part of the time, the wheel would be stopped, it would seem. Ratcheting up in small increments, over and over, and as you mention, with a cumulative input value greater than could be manually commanded.


this is what i said when i linked previously, how would a pilot cop with this when the system keep restarting ? that is the same as removing control. can the pilot turn this mcas off in flight ?
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/20/19 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
Originally Posted by adlabs6
Originally Posted by Alicatt
Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


If I understand the article correctly, it's interesting that the MCAS maximum of 2.5 degrees correction was reset and applied again, each time the pilots disable the system, and it auto-restarted. IIRC the article said this cycle happened 21 times over the course of those final minutes.

I wonder how this looks from the pilot's perspective, compared to a trim runaway? The trim wheel isn't just spinning continuously... a good part of the time, the wheel would be stopped, it would seem. Ratcheting up in small increments, over and over, and as you mention, with a cumulative input value greater than could be manually commanded.


this is what i said when i linked previously, how would a pilot cop with this when the system keep restarting ? that is the same as removing control. can the pilot turn this mcas off in flight ?

Yes, it seems he can, it happened the day before on the same aircraft as mentioned in the post above yours by F4U, I had read that on another news feed. I guess it was not the same two pilots flying the aircraft then.
Posted By: Docjonel

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/21/19 10:34 AM

As a non-pilot, my take on this discussion is that with better training and more information, these pilots could have overcome the deficiencies in the flight control system.
I do not ever want to fly on a plane where the pilots have to fight the aircraft for control in normal flight or turn off key flight control systems in order to avoid crashing. This sounds like an inherently unsafe aircraft if it is that vulnerable to failure.
Yes, the pilots should have known better, but no, they should never have been put into that position on a commercial airliner with hundreds of lives at stake. Clearly the MCAS system was malfunctioning and the pilots were fighting unsuccessfully to keep it from crashing their aircraft. Sounds like a system with inadequate safeguards combined with lack of pilot training, maybe a criminal failure by Boeing to disclose the extent of these issues to operators of its planes.
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/21/19 01:45 PM

Found this interesting
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019...d-boeing-737-max-pilot-software-engineer
Posted By: Nixer

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/21/19 02:15 PM

How many Ethiopians (aircrews) does it take to report a possible catastrophic control glitch on an aircraft?

Certainly more than the just previous aircrew who failed to even report it in their maintenance log.

Of course Boeing selling an "upgrade" that helps fix a big problem their CHEAP/crappy design is pretty sketchy also.

Low time pilots in big jet aircraft is also a HUGE problem IMO.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/21/19 02:28 PM

Now the FBI has joined the investigation. That is an interesting development.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...on-into-certification-of-boeing-737-max/
Posted By: Nixer

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/21/19 02:49 PM

Too bad there weren't any competent, un-biased investigators around....
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/21/19 03:11 PM

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/03/re...ed-planes/?utm_source=push_notifications

Boeing charged airlines extra money for key safety upgrades that were missing on crashed planes
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/21/19 06:54 PM

Juan giving an update on the Max 8



Juan is an ex 737-800 pilot now flying right seat on a 777
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/22/19 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
Originally Posted by adlabs6
Originally Posted by Alicatt
Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


If I understand the article correctly, it's interesting that the MCAS maximum of 2.5 degrees correction was reset and applied again, each time the pilots disable the system, and it auto-restarted. IIRC the article said this cycle happened 21 times over the course of those final minutes.

I wonder how this looks from the pilot's perspective, compared to a trim runaway? The trim wheel isn't just spinning continuously... a good part of the time, the wheel would be stopped, it would seem. Ratcheting up in small increments, over and over, and as you mention, with a cumulative input value greater than could be manually commanded.


this is what i said when i linked previously, how would a pilot cop with this when the system keep restarting ? that is the same as removing control. can the pilot turn this mcas off in flight ?


i already told you!

and i mentioned in in the lionair thread as well! i even posted a video of how to do it in this thread!
flip the switches by the trim wheel into the cutout positions.
or if you don't know how to flip switches..
you HOLD THE TRIM WHEEL STILL. WITH YOUR HAND! THAT'S IT! AIRPLANE WILL NOT CRASH.

the system does not restart. it's on a timer that waits around 2 or 3 seconds from the last input, then does its thing automatically. every time there's an input from the crew, it waits then starts up. if the cutout switches are turned off, it does nothing. if you hold the trim wheel still, or crank it back to where you want it by force, it can't override you.
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/22/19 09:05 AM

Going by this video (same guy as linked above, though he is not type qualified on the MAX), there might be more going on with respect to stall warnings while the MCAS also does its adjustments, like a rattling stick and sound and light shows (based on information from the Lion Air crash). So the pilots might have been busy with other stall recovery prevention procedures while MCAS did its "magic". Worst case they are focussed on other displays/consoles and might not even realise that with every manual trim input soon after the MCAS automatically does its own stab trim adjustments. If they realise it, they will most likely use the cut-off switches - why would they want to permanently hold the wheels...
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/22/19 01:35 PM

Boeing to make optional safety features standard
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a...etliners-2019-03-21?mod=mw_theo_homepage
Posted By: Mr_Blastman

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/22/19 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Haggart


Nope. Too late, Boeing. Executives should see prison over this.

I'm really fed up with fines being issued. Over three hundred people died to greed and incompetence. This requires prison to send a message to the aviation industry.
Posted By: Chaz

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/22/19 02:54 PM

The issue isn't whether low time pilots should be at the controls. Your every day B737 line pilot is not the Boeing test pilot trained to respond immediately. If both Ethiopian Airlines pilots were "high" time, then who would you blame? The issue is Boeing has potentially (and perhaps knowingly) made a defective product and didn't properly notify and train their customers. Even if every 737 MAX line pilot was the Chuck Yeager of the skies, it doesn't absolve Boeing from making a defective product. The MAX is still defective. This is why the FBI is getting involved.
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/24/19 09:46 PM

Seems the pilots were not able to override the MCAS or better the elevator angle due to limitation to overstress at high speed.
Pilot could have switched off the MCAS altogether, but.. even setting it to off after the start it was not possible to override it anymore due to the blowback effect?
F'n flying computers.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/24/19 10:04 PM

All Max aircraft models grounded .... AA airlines canceling 90 flights/day

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/24/business/american-canceling-flights-737-max-grounding/index.html
Posted By: semmern

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/25/19 02:55 PM

The problem with the MAX is that the larger engine nacelles create a lift component at high angles of attack. Being forward of the CG, this decreases the stick force required for further pitch-up. This is a non-allowable certification requirement, because stick force has to increase the more the AoA increases, hence MCAS was introduced, and in a rather sloppy manner it would seem.

Still, that doesn’t explain why basic flying skills seem to have gone out the window. It is also my opinion that a pilot with several thousand hours isn’t necessarily very experienced, if his experience since getting his first jet job at 200 hours with wet ink on his license consists of LNAV/VNAV and A/P on at 400 ft.
Posted By: Pooch

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/25/19 05:08 PM

Holy Smokes! As a pilot, his description of what happens in the cockpit during this malfunction sends shivers up my spine. The trim is running wild and every time you try to correct it it goes back to what it was doing. Then the auto pilot pushes the throttles forward and you are completely losing control of your airplane. And add to this, that you are low and slow on takeoff or landing and it's the stuff that gives pilots nightmares.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/25/19 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Pooch
Holy Smokes! As a pilot, his description of what happens in the cockpit during this malfunction sends shivers up my spine. The trim is running wild and every time you try to correct it it goes back to what it was doing. Then the auto pilot pushes the throttles forward and you are completely losing control of your airplane. And add to this, that you are low and slow on takeoff or landing and it's the stuff that gives pilots nightmares.

Unless, of course, you've at least watched the news. They've shown how to easily shut the MCAS down completely, several times since the Lion Air crash. It baffles me how seemingly no pilot groups have mentioned it to their members, because this still comes a quite a shock.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 09:21 AM

Over-reliance on automation is not just restricted to the actual flying of the airplane. While I can see how this happened, it demonstrates how we can get trapped operating in a bubble trusting the system.

https://www.kcci.com/article/airplane-mistakenly-lands-in-scotland-instead-of-germany/26931138
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by oldgrognard
Over-reliance on automation is not just restricted to the actual flying of the airplane. While I can see how this happened, it demonstrates how we can get trapped operating in a bubble trusting the system.

https://www.kcci.com/article/airplane-mistakenly-lands-in-scotland-instead-of-germany/26931138

What puzzles me about this one, okay, the carrier filed a flight to Edinburgh instead of Duesseldorf. Pilots + cabin crew arrive at the airport, get their plane and flight plan assigned, and everything points to a flight to Edinburgh. But why does the boarding still treat it as a flight to Duesseldorf? I mean, the passengers would not have boarded the plane if the displays and announcements had told them it's a flight to Edinburgh, no?!?!

With respect to the MAX crashes I wonder when the MCAS really interferes and how that is related to stall warnings etc. Okay, MCAS only "sees" one AoA sensor and when that shows risk of a stall, MCAS reacts. But what about other stall warning systems that take both AoA sensors into account, and in the crash scenario see significantly different AoA readings? What kind of indications/warnings/alarms are triggered in such a case?
Seems the crashed planes had no AoA readout error indicators or AoA dials (said in an article above that those were optional, but now will become standard for the MAX).
Posted By: HeinKill

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by WhoCares
With respect to the MAX crashes I wonder when the MCAS really interferes and how that is related to stall warnings etc. Okay, MCAS only "sees" one AoA sensor and when that shows risk of a stall, MCAS reacts. But what about other stall warning systems that take both AoA sensors into account, and in the crash scenario see significantly different AoA readings? What kind of indications/warnings/alarms are triggered in such a case?
Seems the crashed planes had no AoA readout error indicators or AoA dials (said in an article above that those were optional, but now will become standard for the MAX).


Really good laypilot article here including animation:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/business/boeing-simulation-error.html

Yes, sounds 'easy', if you've been trained and if you regularly practice, if nothing else is happening in the cockpit, if pilots are sober/awake/alert, if you don't screw up and waste your precious 40 seconds reaction time, if if if ...

Better not to introduce (or to have approved) such a dodgy aircraft characteristic requiring such emergency action in the first place.

HYPOTHETICAL FUTURE BOEING AIRCRAFT DESIGN MEETING

Lead designer: OK people, we are getting smashed by Airbus, we need to double fuel efficiency, ideas??
Fred: I have a design I've been working on that will easily double fuel efficiency!
Lead: Awesome! What's the catch?
Fred: Well, in the unlikely scenario that both engines cut out, the plane won't be able to glide and pilots will lose all control. It will drop like a brick.
Lead: Not a deal breaker. Mitigation?
Fred: Give all passengers parachutes and increase the brightness of the LEDs showing the emergency exits?
Lead: Approved! Call the factory!
Fred: Won't the FAA need to approve this?
Lead: Fred, I am a certified FAA safety officer, and I say 'approved!' Get that production line cranking buddy!

H

Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 01:18 PM

Really recommend reading the comments on the blog post below. The discussion is mostly on the 737 Max issue but some other Boeing related issues mixed in:

http://www.transterrestrial.com/2019/03/21/more-boeing-delays/#comments
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 01:28 PM

From above link, sums up my personal thoughts:

"Mike Borgelt
March 23, 2019 At 1:16 PM
There’s nothing wrong with MCAS or the 737 MAX. Those crews were going to die whenever they next had a runaway stab trim motor for any reason including actuation by any of the 4 automatic and one manual methods that can run it.
This whole thing has become a disgusting, irrational political witch hunt complete with grandstanding politicians and agencies.
Just brief the crews on the MCAS and if it or the other 5 systems trigger or remain stuck on, hit the stab trim disconnect switches.
The autopilot is one of those systems so a crew can be fat, dumb, happy and complacent with autopilot on at FL350 and suffer a runaway trim because some passengers moved forward or aft and the autopilot drove the stab trim motor and it didn’t turn off. The airplane will get upset pretty quickly, either up or down.
The crews in the crashes just didn’t understand the aircraft systems well enough to take the timely and appropriate action which is meant to be a memory item."
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 02:37 PM

... and the response to that by George Turner:
Quote
But the crews weren’t going to die without MCAS. All the prior 737’s had all those other systems that adjusted the trim, and all the pilots, like these, were trained how to respond to runaway trim by hitting the TRIM STAB cutout switch. ... Third world pilots flying 737 NG’s instead of MAX’s aren’t crashing due to runaway trim, and those are the same pilots that just transitioned to the MAX, which they are crashing....

The problem is that MCAS doesn’t manifest as runaway trim until the NTSB finds the jack screw in the debris. It only runs for a handful of seconds and then stops. So when the pilot is trying to figure out if he has a runaway trim problem, the trim wheels aren’t turning, so the answer is no, it can’t be runaway trim. So he goes on checking something else to get the plane back to a normal attitude, probably focusing on why the engines just went to full thrust.

Shortly afterwards, the wheels turn again, and then stop. He keeps right on troubleshooting, and it’s still not manifesting as runaway trim because the trim wheels aren’t turning. And the MCAS system and the pilot might do this little dance all the way into the ground. As one 737 pilot described it, MCAS is insidious because it acts intermittently...
Posted By: Nixer

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 02:48 PM

The response is from where?

Bottom line IMO.

Disconnect all auto control functions and fly the #%&*$# airplane as a FIRST step in trouble shooting. What's insidious is these pilots not doing this, again, IMO.
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Nixer
The response is from where?

Bottom line IMO.

Disconnect all auto control functions and fly the #%&*$# airplane as a FIRST step in trouble shooting. What's insidious is these pilots not doing this, again, IMO.

In the same link posted by F4U earlier, from which he also took his quote.
Posted By: Mr_Blastman

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 03:26 PM

I'm not sure we can blame the pilots here.

Boeing modified the jet with a new system that does something entirely new and unexpected, that even seasoned pilots aren't used to. Then Boeing decides to make once of the necessary sensors an option, which airlines don't understand is an important option, and neglect to purchase. And to top things off, with or without the system, the jet has a single point of failure in a sensor that has no redundancy, which can cause insidious trim wheel movements that are counter-intuitive and not a red flag based on standard pilot training. You have a jet trying to kill itself due to a badly designed and implemented system.

I think it is unfair the pilots should shoulder the blame here, given they acted according to their training on a situation that was not obvious.

Boeing messed up. Badly. There's some serious negligence here, and they have blood on their hands. No amount of profit is worthwhile if the cash is stained with blood.



I think what is most insidious about this system is it sounds like even if the pilots are manually flying the aircraft to altitude, the MCAS still will kick in and override their inputs with sporadic trim wheel adjustments. The trim stab cutoff seems second nature to use if the wheels are spinning, but if they're moving incrementally? Not an obvious solution it seems.
Posted By: Nixer

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 03:36 PM

Great story here about real pilots vs a runaway flight computer:

Link
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Pooch
Holy Smokes! As a pilot, his description of what happens in the cockpit during this malfunction sends shivers up my spine. The trim is running wild and every time you try to correct it it goes back to what it was doing. Then the auto pilot pushes the throttles forward and you are completely losing control of your airplane. And add to this, that you are low and slow on takeoff or landing and it's the stuff that gives pilots nightmares.


prescription for this problem: click click, click click

autopilot off

autothrottle off

hand on the yoke.
hand on the throttles.

PROBLEM SOLVED

yes, airliners should be designed for the lowest common denominator, but really. the governments of all developed nations have stricter rules on drivers trying to get their driver's license. you will not find a person with 200 hours of driving time driving a bus or truck anywhere, not legally at least. why is this being allowed for jets?


boeing screwed up but until the world decides to get its #%&*$# together and not put incompetent people into the cockpit, this is going to get worse.

and for what it's worth, this is not the first time over reliance on automation has caused a slew of accidents. in the early to late 1990's, airlines and aircraft manufacturers continually tried to downplay the importance of competent flight crew and increasingly demanded the reliance on automation for all phases of the flight. this ultimately led to a statistically significant increase in accident rates around the world. many of these accidents and incidents involved crew who were too busy trying to deal with automation related issues, be that punching stuff into the scratch pads, fiddling with the mcp, whatever. they crashed their aircraft into the ground or other aircraft. in many or all cases, simply manhandling the aircraft with AP and AT off, looking outside or at the big blue screen in front of them while having their hands on the yoke and throttle would have saved the aircraft.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 06:46 PM

As mentioned earlier in a recent simulation the pilots had just 40 seconds to the correct the situation

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/americas/boeing-test-40-seconds-intl/index.html
Posted By: Nixer

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 07:25 PM

Ooooooo 40 seconds...the stress, the horror..

I have had less than 10 seconds separating me and possible death and injury, or major collisions. Me and my BIG dang steel boat, full of flammables, toxic stuff, sometimes passengers and sometimes very explosive stuff, and close collisions with oil platforms, other boats and assorted other hazards.

It's called experience and keeping your cool when it counts...luck helps also at times...and not being afraid to make a decision.

You don't learn that in a few hundred hours, or as semmern said, a few thousand hours on autopilot. A merchant Marine Captain is required to have hundreds of DAYS, not hours, at sea just to get an entry level license. No boat owner in their right mind will let a new captain run a boat without serious supervision.

40 seconds is a long darn time if you know what you are doing.

Contrary to current beliefs, in the game of life, you don't get a trophy if you lose.

Somebody needs to set up a website to expose all these shifty air carriers with low time/experience pilots in the cockpit.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 08:27 PM

Forty seconds? Do you want to get a good idea of how LONG that is try staring at a clock while holding your breath. Those seconds start to s-t-r--e---t----c------h .

In 1975 I pulled my ripcord and nothing happened. I mean it didn't even clear the pocket. I was at 2500 feet AGL, terminal velocity, and just off the coast of Florida (opening point in order to land about 500 yards inland) at the time. That means I had less than twelve seconds to diagnose and correct the problem or become a mess for someone to clean up (given 200 to 300 feet for the parachute to open). And there is NO "emergency procedure" training for that situation.

If you can't think fast and clearly in an emergency situation you have no business putting other people's lives at risk, let alone your own.


**edit**
In the interest of full disclosure, it was my own stupidity. I had a left-side inboard pull harness and somehow had routed my cheststrap THROUGH the ripcord handle. There are at least two other people who should have caught it, but the ultimate responsibility lies with me.
I survived, by the way.
Posted By: EAF331 MadDog

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 08:42 PM

A lot of armchair pilots here.

How many of you have flown the MAX8 and espesially have experienced the MASC malfunctioning like in these two crashes?

I thought so. ZIP.

The blame is fully in Boeing's court - they created the system, they failed to provide proper mandatory training on it in order to save costs. Some motherfucking beancounter and leaders at Boeing needs to be tried for 300+ cases of manslaughter in a federal state with the death penality.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
A lot of armchair pilots here.

How many of you have flown the MAX8 and espesially have experienced the MASC malfunctioning like in these two crashes?

I thought so. ZIP.

The pilot who, according to the news, was in the jumpseat of the Ethiopian airliner the day before it crashed and told those pilots how to correct the problem then has flown it. And although I don't know if he'd ever experienced the malfunction before that he certainly knew what to do should it occur. So since he knew I have to assume the knowledge was available to other pilots who do fly the type and should have a vested interest in staying up to date on its peculiarities. Also, as I have mentioned a few times, I've known since the Lion Air crash just from watching the news even though I am admittedly only an "armchair pilot". *


Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
The blame is fully in Boeing's court - they created the system, they failed to provide proper mandatory training on it in order to save costs. Some motherfucking beancounter and leaders at Boeing needs to be tried for 300+ cases of manslaughter in a federal state with the death penality.

I'm not negating Boeing's responsibility in this. Aircraft safety is, literally, a matter of life and death. And the idea of not having at least one backup sensor as standard equipment is something for which they should definitely be held totally responsible. Safety equipment that is considered important enough to be optional should be considered important enough to be standard, NOT optional. All I'm saying is that to hold the pilots completely blameless in it is, in my opinion, wrong. The information was out there, and to more than just pilots who fly those aircraft. They had a responsibility to their passengers to make sure they knew it. And their airline had the same responsibility.


*I'll see your "ZIP", and raise you a "BAZINGA". wink
Posted By: Nixer

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/26/19 10:58 PM

Hard to call your countryman, semmern, an armchair pilot.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/27/19 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog

How many of you have flown the MAX8 and espesially have experienced the MASC malfunctioning like in these two crashes?


I'm betting you've not flown one either.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/27/19 11:17 AM

a good article by an investor who is also an aerospace engineer

Boeing 737 MAX Lessons To Be Learned
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4251063-boeing-737-max-lessons-learned
Posted By: Chaz

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/27/19 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
A lot of armchair pilots here.

How many of you have flown the MAX8 and espesially have experienced the MASC malfunctioning like in these two crashes?

I thought so. ZIP.

The blame is fully in Boeing's court - they created the system, they failed to provide proper mandatory training on it in order to save costs. Some motherfucking beancounter and leaders at Boeing needs to be tried for 300+ cases of manslaughter in a federal state with the death penality.


The FAA is just as much responsible as Boeing. The FAA approved the airplane. The bureaucracy and red tape run deep......

And no armchair pilot here. Though I don't fly the 737 or MAX, I fly a similar type jet. And typed in others as well. I'm ok being labeled a Monday morning quarterback. right
Posted By: Flogger23m

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/27/19 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Chaz
Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
A lot of armchair pilots here.

How many of you have flown the MAX8 and espesially have experienced the MASC malfunctioning like in these two crashes?

I thought so. ZIP.

The blame is fully in Boeing's court - they created the system, they failed to provide proper mandatory training on it in order to save costs. Some motherfucking beancounter and leaders at Boeing needs to be tried for 300+ cases of manslaughter in a federal state with the death penality.


The FAA is just as much responsible as Boeing. The FAA approved the airplane. The bureaucracy and red tape run deep......

And no armchair pilot here. Though I don't fly the 737 or MAX, I fly a similar type jet. And typed in others as well. I'm ok being labeled a Monday morning quarterback. right


I'm not sure if I already posted it, but it sounds like all parties are at fault in some capacity.

- Improperly trained pilots
- Only one sensor for MCAS even if it can be disable easily seems like a lack of redundancy for what is a major system
- FAA should have noted the above
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/28/19 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
...it sounds like all parties are at fault in some capacity.
- Improperly trained pilots
- Only one sensor for MCAS even if it can be disable easily seems like a lack of redundancy for what is a major system
- FAA should have noted the above


Agreed as to all parties, although I would add at least Ethiopian Airlines. But the question, in my mind, is to what extent should each be held accountable?

Boeing: somewhat for their treatment of a backup system as "optional equipment". As I said earlier, if they felt the additional safety of multiple sensors justified offering them as option, they should have been included as standard. As I understand it, system redundancy is so much the norm in airliner design they probably wouldn't even have had to justify the cost of it to their customers.

The FAA: probably not so much. They didn't farm out certification to Boeing for this one type only. According to the reports I've heard, it's been SOP for years, maybe decades.

The pilots: In the case of Lion Air, somewhat leaning toward giving them a pass, since theirs was the first case to come to light. In the case of Ethiopian Airlines, definitely. Ultimately the pilots are the ones putting their lives and the lives of their passengers on the line. Not to oversimplify, but if you see something unfamiliar in an airplane you're going to be flying you might want to ask, "Oooo eek ! What does this button do?" And as I have stated, by the time of the second crash the potential danger was well-known even outside aviation circles. I used to skydive, and one of the Golden Rules was "never jump a parachute you didn't pack", the crux of which is that YOU are the one who may die and therefore the one ultimately responsible for making sure you know what's going on before you step out of the airplane. Or on it, for that matter. And the airline's safety officials should potentially be held more accountable than the pilots, since their only job is to ensure the safety of the passengers. They should be scouring every incident report for any equipment issue, and especially when it involves an aircraft type their airline uses.
Posted By: CyBerkut

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/28/19 01:22 PM

Just saw this: Another Max 8 Makes Emergency Landing As Boeing Plans to Fix Dangerous Plane Model
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/28/19 02:18 PM



An engine quit is what I heard.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/28/19 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK


An engine quit is what I heard.

Same here, which would make this totally unrelated. Although I'm sure that won't make any difference to the media.
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/28/19 05:04 PM

not related to mcas, total non-event. sounds like they shut down the engine to reduce risk of wear or damage while operating outside of safe parameters. happens fairly frequently to jets of any make. could be caused by anything but probably a small maintenance issue that requires adjustment.
Posted By: HeinKill

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/29/19 07:27 AM

My test is always, would I book my kids on a flight with airline X or airplane Y

Max 8: no

Max 8 after Boeing does software kludge: no

Max 8A after Boeing re-engineers it: after a year or so, maybe
Posted By: CyBerkut

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 03/29/19 02:24 PM

Just saw this one: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/288501-boeing-proposes-fixes-for-grounded-737-max-aircraft
Posted By: Blade_RJ

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/03/19 08:05 PM

So contray to all you armchair pilots out here, a source inside the investigation revelaed that the pilot DID cut off the mcas as per emergency instruction, but the mcas was is not completely shut by doing this, and it reingaged on its own when they manage to get 2000 ft and pulled the plane nose down again.......
boing was asked to comment on this but its silent.....this tells a lot.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/03/19 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
So contray to all you armchair pilots out here, a source inside the investigation revelaed that the pilot DID cut off the mcas as per emergency instruction, but the mcas was is not completely shut by doing this, and it reingaged on its own when they manage to get 2000 ft and pulled the plane nose down again.......
boing was asked to comment on this but its silent.....this tells a lot.


Without a link to a legitimate source you're just "armchair piloting" yourself.
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/03/19 08:29 PM

Read something similar from Reuters but they said that the pilots re-engaged the MCAS system as they could not get enough trim authority from manually trimming the aircraft. they were quoting an undisclosed source that had been briefed on the investigation.

So no confirmation only rumour.
Posted By: Chaz

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/03/19 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
So contray to all you armchair pilots out here, a source inside the investigation revelaed that the pilot DID cut off the mcas as per emergency instruction, but the mcas was is not completely shut by doing this, and it reingaged on its own when they manage to get 2000 ft and pulled the plane nose down again.......
boing was asked to comment on this but its silent.....this tells a lot.


Without a link to a legitimate source you're just "armchair piloting" yourself.


Um, it's all over the morning news. Any major outlet you wish.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...n-airlines-pilots-lion-crash/3350372002/

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...crash-boeing-software-engaged-repeatedly

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/03/africa/ethiopian-airlines-emergency-procedures-intl/index.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing...lowed-emergency-procedures-before-crash/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ethiop...ps-to-disable-737-max-system-11554263276
Posted By: Blade_RJ

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/03/19 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
So contray to all you armchair pilots out here, a source inside the investigation revelaed that the pilot DID cut off the mcas as per emergency instruction, but the mcas was is not completely shut by doing this, and it reingaged on its own when they manage to get 2000 ft and pulled the plane nose down again.......
boing was asked to comment on this but its silent.....this tells a lot.


Without a link to a legitimate source you're just "armchair piloting" yourself.


i'm not the one joking over how it was a pilot mistake over a simple procedure they should know about. From day one i told this was the system getting out of pilot control....it seems it was very much the case.
just like the frozen pitot thinking the airplane was flying inverted, nothing the pilot can do, when all systems are giving contradicting information and the pc assumes control while they are doing a checklist.
Posted By: semmern

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/03/19 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by WhoCares
Originally Posted by oldgrognard
Over-reliance on automation is not just restricted to the actual flying of the airplane. While I can see how this happened, it demonstrates how we can get trapped operating in a bubble trusting the system.

https://www.kcci.com/article/airplane-mistakenly-lands-in-scotland-instead-of-germany/26931138

What puzzles me about this one, okay, the carrier filed a flight to Edinburgh instead of Duesseldorf. Pilots + cabin crew arrive at the airport, get their plane and flight plan assigned, and everything points to a flight to Edinburgh. But why does the boarding still treat it as a flight to Duesseldorf? I mean, the passengers would not have boarded the plane if the displays and announcements had told them it's a flight to Edinburgh, no?!?!

With respect to the MAX crashes I wonder when the MCAS really interferes and how that is related to stall warnings etc. Okay, MCAS only "sees" one AoA sensor and when that shows risk of a stall, MCAS reacts. But what about other stall warning systems that take both AoA sensors into account, and in the crash scenario see significantly different AoA readings? What kind of indications/warnings/alarms are triggered in such a case?
Seems the crashed planes had no AoA readout error indicators or AoA dials (said in an article above that those were optional, but now will become standard for the MAX).


Actually. the fact that this system is for stall prevention is a common misconception. MCAS has nothing to do with stall prevention in the traditional sense. It is designed to provide a linear increase in stick force with higher angles of attack, as the certification requirements of commercial airliners includes an increase in stick force as AoA increases. The larger nacelles of the MAX provide lift at increased angles of attack and that lift, being forward of the CG, contributes to a decrease in stick force required to further increase AoA, rather than an increasing force as per the certification requirements.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/04/19 12:32 AM

And on the news tonight it was reported that the pilots reactivated MCAS, it did not reactivate itself.
Posted By: semmern

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/04/19 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by vonBaur
And on the news tonight it was reported that the pilots reactivated MCAS, it did not reactivate itself.


It cannot in itself be activated or deactivated. Wth the stabilizer trim cutout switches to cutoff, all electric trim is disabled, and that includes MCAS. With the switches in the normal position, MCAS is always active - during its engagement criteria, of course.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/04/19 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by Chaz
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
So contray to all you armchair pilots out here, a source inside the investigation revelaed that the pilot DID cut off the mcas as per emergency instruction, but the mcas was is not completely shut by doing this, and it reingaged on its own when they manage to get 2000 ft and pulled the plane nose down again.......
boing was asked to comment on this but its silent.....this tells a lot.


Without a link to a legitimate source you're just "armchair piloting" yourself.


Um, it's all over the morning news. Any major outlet you wish.


https://www.theguardian.com/busines...crash-boeing-software-engaged-repeatedly


Did you even read your sources?

"It was not immediately clear whether the crew had chosen to redeploy the system, which pushes the nose of the Boeing 737 Max downwards, but one person with knowledge of the situation said investigators were studying the possibility that the software had kicked in again without human intervention."

Nothing definitive there AT ALL. Just more speculation.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/04/19 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
So contray to all you armchair pilots out here, a source inside the investigation revelaed that the pilot DID cut off the mcas as per emergency instruction, but the mcas was is not completely shut by doing this, and it reingaged on its own when they manage to get 2000 ft and pulled the plane nose down again.......
boing was asked to comment on this but its silent.....this tells a lot.


Without a link to a legitimate source you're just "armchair piloting" yourself.


i'm not the one joking......



And who was joking about something?
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/04/19 08:06 PM

Preliminary report is now out:

http://www.ecaa.gov.et/documents/20...1EQS914Wm-ECeoSDCJVmaSKHUCOxUHDZHikoIF8s

Not read it yet, just about to start.
Posted By: Chaz

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/04/19 10:37 PM

Boeing (CEO) has publicly accepted blame and apologizes for the 2 MAX accidents and loss of life.

Video with taped statement by the CEO: https://www.yahoo.com/news/preliminary-report-says-pilots-ethiopian-093005543.html

The chairman of Boeing acknowledged Thursday for the first time that a new maneuvering system was responsible for two plane crashes that killed almost 350 people, and he apologized to the families and friends of the victims.

"We at Boeing are sorry for the lives lost in the recent 737 accidents and are relentlessly focused on safety to ensure tragedies like this never happen again," CEO Dennis Muilenburg said in a videotaped statement posted on Twitter.

Posted By: rollnloop.

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/04/19 10:39 PM

Scary, as expected.
Posted By: OldHat

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/04/19 11:24 PM

Speculation and pointing fingers is over. Now it's time for accountability and Boeing to fix their mistake. Sad that most of the world did the right thing way before the US FAA woke up. Very frustrating.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 12:45 AM

And yet, surprisingly, Boeing stock continues to go up.
Posted By: wheelsup_cavu

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by oldgrognard
And yet, surprisingly, Boeing stock continues to go up.

It does seem a bit strange to me too but I never was much good with playing the markets.


Wheels
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 06:12 AM

Boeing Co. Chief Executive Dennis Muilenburg Apologizes for Loss of Life & Promises a Software Fix Soon
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/b...eks-away-2019-04-04?mod=mw_theo_homepage
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Alicatt
Preliminary report is now out:

http://www.ecaa.gov.et/documents/20...1EQS914Wm-ECeoSDCJVmaSKHUCOxUHDZHikoIF8s

Not read it yet, just about to start.

Accordng to the cockpit voice recorder (page 11) they used the "stab trim cut-out" at 5:40:35, and the flight data recorder (page 26) indicates a few seconds later an automatic trim down command that gets supressed (no change in stab position) => cut-out does its job.
At 5:41:30 they try stab trim again, and I assume that's supposed to be manual electrical input, but there is no such input indicated in the FDR plot. Correction, not by trim but pitch up by pulling the stick, I guess. The pilot then asks the co-pilot whether trim is working, which he answers no and then tries to trim manually, which seems not to work either.
But then at 5:43:20, short before the end (no indication that they would have reverted the cut-out, but the switch position seems not to be part of the FDR plot), they trim again, two short manual electric up inputs are indicated in the FDR, ~5secs after the last manual input followed by a longer automatic down - that's the last inputs before the crash.

I am a bit confused that right after the cut-out the FDR still recorded the suppressed automatic trim input, but it later does not indicate the apparently attempted manual electric at 5:41:30 (I guess there might still have been such an attempt before the co-pilot said that trim doesn't work and tried manually). So it seems supressed automatic inputs are recorded, but supressed manual electric inputs are not recorded?
Question is, did they revert the cut-out before the last manual electric trim inputs?

Trying to put the quoted excerpt from the report into a quote or spoiler here, but the forum does not accept the post in that way...

Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 10:59 AM

As separate post it does - sorry for chain post...
ANU: aircraft nose up
AND: aircraft nose down
At 05:40:28 Manual electric trim in the ANU direction was recorded and the stabilizer reversed moving in the ANU direction and then the trim reached 2.3 units.
At 05:40:35, the First-Officer called out “stab trim cut-out” two times. Captain agreed and co-pilot confirmed stab trim cut-out.
At 05:40:41, approximately five seconds after the end of the ANU stabilizer motion, a third instance of AND automatic trim command occurred without any corresponding motion of the stabilizer, which is consistent with the stabilizer trim cutout switches were in the ‘’cutout’’ position.
...
At 05:41:30, the Captain requested the First-Officer to pitch up with him and the First-Officer acknowledged.
...
At 05:41:46, the Captain asked the First-Officer if the trim is functional. The First-Officer has replied that the trim was not working and asked if he could try it manually. The Captain told him to try. At 05:41:54, the First-Officer replied that it is not working.
...
At 05:43:04, the Captain asked the First Officer to pitch up together and said that pitch is not enough.
At 05:43:11, about 32 seconds before the end of the recording, at approximately 13,400 ft, two momentary manual electric trim inputs are recorded in the ANU direction. The stabilizer moved in the ANU direction from 2.1 units to 2.3 units.
At 05:43:20, approximately five seconds after the last manual electric trim input, an AND automatic trim command occurred and the stabilizer moved in the AND direction from 2.3 to 1.0 unit in approximately 5 seconds. The aircraft began pitching nose down. Additional simultaneous aft column force was applied, but the nose down pitch continues, eventually reaching 40° nose down. The stabilizer position varied between 1.1 and 0.8 units for the remainder of the recording.

Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Haggart
Boeing Co. Chief Executive Dennis Muilenburg Apologizes for Loss of Life & Promises a Software Fix Soon
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/b...eks-away-2019-04-04?mod=mw_theo_homepage


Already posted by Chaz. It is a few posts before the one you posted.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 11:41 AM

Yikes. What a major clusterfu** for Boeing.


I'm sure Airbus will be benefiting from this.
Posted By: RSColonel_131st

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 12:28 PM

I guess for Military Aircraft it makes sense to build airfoils and designs that are inherently so unstable it needs software to fly (F-117 was the first of the sort, no?).

But for airliners, there should be a law that the aircraft needs to be inherently stable. Fixing a design problem with a sensor and software was just asking for this tragedy.
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 01:28 PM


The same pilot posted earlier in this thread, talking us through the report. He assumes that the pilots indeed may have reverted the cut-off. Also interesting his explanation why the manual trim attempt may have failed.
Posted By: semmern

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Yikes. What a major clusterfu** for Boeing.


I'm sure Airbus will be benefiting from this.


Airbus has had its share of issues as well. The Air France crash in the South Atlantic, and these:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72

https://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia_AirAsia_Flight_8501

All it takes is a small error in soldering on a circuit board..
Posted By: HeinKill

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st
I guess for Military Aircraft it makes sense to build airfoils and designs that are inherently so unstable it needs software to fly (F-117 was the first of the sort, no?).

But for airliners, there should be a law that the aircraft needs to be inherently stable. Fixing a design problem with a sensor and software was just asking for this tragedy.


+1
Posted By: Spidey

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/05/19 10:16 PM

I really rhink Boeing has blood on its hands. Air Lion we can say was a tragedy. The fact that Ethiopian air happened after that was completely inexcusable. They were probably presureing FAA not ground the 737 MAX even after both disasters too behind the scenes.

People should go to jail over this.
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/06/19 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by WhoCares
As separate post it does - sorry for chain post...
ANU: aircraft nose up
AND: aircraft nose down
At 05:40:28 Manual electric trim in the ANU direction was recorded and the stabilizer reversed moving in the ANU direction and then the trim reached 2.3 units.
At 05:40:35, the First-Officer called out “stab trim cut-out” two times. Captain agreed and co-pilot confirmed stab trim cut-out.
At 05:40:41, approximately five seconds after the end of the ANU stabilizer motion, a third instance of AND automatic trim command occurred without any corresponding motion of the stabilizer, which is consistent with the stabilizer trim cutout switches were in the ‘’cutout’’ position.
...
At 05:41:30, the Captain requested the First-Officer to pitch up with him and the First-Officer acknowledged.
...
At 05:41:46, the Captain asked the First-Officer if the trim is functional. The First-Officer has replied that the trim was not working and asked if he could try it manually. The Captain told him to try. At 05:41:54, the First-Officer replied that it is not working.
...



Was it broken or was it that he didn't know how much strength it would take to move it at 250 knots?

Did the captain try to move it with the first officer?

The conversation here doesn't seem to mention turning the cutout switches back on, how is it that it autotrimmed with the switches on CUTOUT? is this one of the flaws in the design, or did they flip the cutouts back to the normal positions?

incidentally, one of the techniques taught in that fantastic AA training course was unloading the aircraft to restore control of the aircraft after malfunction of a control surface or trim failure.. Really, everyone should watch it..
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/06/19 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
Originally Posted by WhoCares
As separate post it does - sorry for chain post...
ANU: aircraft nose up
AND: aircraft nose down
At 05:40:28 Manual electric trim in the ANU direction was recorded and the stabilizer reversed moving in the ANU direction and then the trim reached 2.3 units.
At 05:40:35, the First-Officer called out “stab trim cut-out” two times. Captain agreed and co-pilot confirmed stab trim cut-out.
At 05:40:41, approximately five seconds after the end of the ANU stabilizer motion, a third instance of AND automatic trim command occurred without any corresponding motion of the stabilizer, which is consistent with the stabilizer trim cutout switches were in the ‘’cutout’’ position.
...
At 05:41:30, the Captain requested the First-Officer to pitch up with him and the First-Officer acknowledged.
...
At 05:41:46, the Captain asked the First-Officer if the trim is functional. The First-Officer has replied that the trim was not working and asked if he could try it manually. The Captain told him to try. At 05:41:54, the First-Officer replied that it is not working.
...



Was it broken or was it that he didn't know how much strength it would take to move it at 250 knots?

Did the captain try to move it with the first officer?

The conversation here doesn't seem to mention turning the cutout switches back on, how is it that it autotrimmed with the switches on CUTOUT? is this one of the flaws in the design, or did they flip the cutouts back to the normal positions?

incidentally, one of the techniques taught in that fantastic AA training course was unloading the aircraft to restore control of the aircraft after malfunction of a control surface or trim failure.. Really, everyone should watch it..

There was a mention of the captain asking the co-pilot to help pull back on the control,

The aircraft was at 340knots and getting faster, final speed before the end of the recording was over 500knots, so a lot of resistance to moving the controls/ trim and they did not have the height above ground level to unload the aircraft to trim manually.
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/06/19 09:00 AM

The pilot in the yt video explains the unloading as well - not sure whether they knew about this technique. But the question is whether it would really be applicable, because they didn't really have the luxury of altitude to unload the aircraft.
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/09/19 01:57 AM

maybe not, but I have a suspicion the captain did not try to move the trim wheel with the fo, and that the inexperienced fo didn't realize that trim was going to be stiff because he'd probably never flown an airplane that fast besides the 737 using manual trim.

I really question why they didn't stop the wheel on the numerous, long chances they got, and most of all I wonder who and why the cutout switches were turned back to normal even though they knew the system was behaving badly.

for what it's worth, unloading an aircraft does not mean you have to lose altitude. if they had been quicker to notice that the nose was being pushed down, they would have been able to unload the aircraft and continue climbing. i haven't looked at the time stamps in super detail but iirc they didn't start looking at trim issues until the second or third instance of uncommanded nose down trim. they ignored a LOT of signals to let it get to that point. it's the difference between holding the yoke with your thumb and index finger and having to strain to pull back on the yoke to keep the nose from sinking. it's a huge oversight. alert pilots don't just miss that. then turning back on a system they knew was broken.. well come on, really?

it doesn't absolve boeing of their %hitty design which is a position i've always maintained, but they should have been watching like hawks, and they should have known every little detail of the mcas after the lionair crash. they didn't know that enabling AP would have disabled the mcas. fair enough, i didn't know that either, but then again i'm not a MAX captain. they didn't know that flaps down would have stopped mcas.

they SHOULD have known that changing power settings would have improved their maneuverability on manual controls. instead they crashed their jet with the throttles untouched at near max power settings. unbelievable. they SHOULD have known that turning on a bad system would compound problems, not improve them. they SHOULD have asked for help over the radio when they realized they didn't have a solution. someone on the air might have known what to do.
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/09/19 08:19 AM

The pilot actually enabled the autopilot, from the pilots seat which at that time was already shaking for ~30secs as a stall warning (kept shaking until the end, only the pilots, not on the fo side), but AP was turned of again 33 seconds later, iirc, whether automatically due to the divergent AoA and other sensor readings from both sides, or manually is not documented in the report. Short before the autopilot was disengaged, the crew retracted the flaps as well. With autopilot off and flaps up MCAS finally "took control", triming down from 4.6 to 2.1 5secs after the AP was disengaged (1st).
"Don't sink" warning, followed first by pulling the stick and then electric trim up to 2.4. 5secs later MCAS trims down to 0.4 (2nd).
"Don't sink" warnings again, followed by electric trim up to 2.3, and stab trim cut-out. Thus before MCAS could do its thing the third time, they already reacted.
Posted By: Alicatt

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/09/19 08:31 AM

As part of flight training in the Cessna 150/152 the instructor wound on full nose down trim to let me feel and react to an out of trim aircraft, now we were only flying at around 90kts but it took a lot of force to hold the little aircraft straight and level, the trim tabs on a little Cessna are not very big at all.
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/09/19 09:47 AM

For most of the time they still managed to maintain a slight climb, up to ~9kft above ground. Then they requested and entered a turn to return to the airport.
At 5:42:04 both call out "Left alpha vane" (I guess realising that the AoA vane on the pilots side gives wrong input). Then the pilot asks the FO to pitch up with him again, but also adds that pitch is not enough. At that time they maintained altitude (probably as a result of the turn no longer climbing?!) until apparently the cutout was reverted. I'd guess that's coming as a reaction to that notion and not being able to trim manually, though I wonder why there were just two very short uptrim pulses. 5secs later MCAS triggers again, and the plane crashed <30secs later.
Already stating that pitch is not enough and not being able to trim manually, I guess reverting the cutoff is a measure of desperation, but as said, I wonder why after that they only gave very short uptrim pulses...
Posted By: adlabs6

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/09/19 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
... then turning back on a system they knew was broken.. well come on, really?

...they didn't know that flaps down would have stopped mcas.


I was following some discussion of actual 737 pilots, who were responding to some suggestions that the crew could have dropped flaps to disable MCAS. The pilots indicated two counters to this... A) modern air safety is largely supported by pilots following orderly procedures. Dropping flaps isn't apparently part of the procedures to counter the MCAS issue. and B) the aircraft was above rated speed for flap deployment anyway, and one pilot mentioned a lockout which would have prevented flap deployment above that speed, even if they had tried.

The general feeling I got about their conclusions was that the procedure following MCAS error, was followed, cutting out the system. However, this leaves the crew in a bad to worse situation, if the plane has been forcing nose down, and is descending at high speed (the manual trim forces at 400 to 500 mph are apparently quite high). Those comments I read seemed to indicate that a crew in such a position would need to nose down even farther to decrease manual trim forces, or re-enable power to the system to attempt powered adjustment.

This post is only intended as a response to the idea of deploying flaps as a fix. I welcome input and correction from anyone who knows better.

And of course, I will add all the usual internet required disclaimers to my post:
I am just me relaying what I've read elsewhere. I am not a pilot. I can't verify the guys I was reading were actually pilots, or that what they were posting was even correct.
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/09/19 06:12 PM

There is also the suggestion floating around that they should have reduced the power to reduce the speed. I am no pilot, but I am tempted to think that this is not standard procedure in the climb phase after the start while the stick is rattling and warning of a potential stall condition. It's easy for us in hindsight to say it's clear that it's the "MCAS bug" causing them the troubles.

For the pilots the trouble started with the shaking stick at 5:38.44, MCAS only started to play its stab trim game after flaps got retracted and 5secs after the auto-pilot was disabled at 5:40:00. At 5:40:35 they used the cut-out switch - took them (just or loooong?) 35secs from the first MCAS trim action to them switching the stab trim off. And all the while the pilot has a shaking stick telling him about a (potential) stall risk. The next ~100s they maintain a slight climb by pulling the controls but also continuously build up speed. At 5:41:20 an overspeed clacker started. That's the point where you can start to argue that they should adjust the power settings. But what's a safe reduced power setting when you still try to climb but have a shaking stick telling you about a stall risk and without stab control? I hope a pilot that went through plenty of training has a good answer to that question - I am no pilot, I don't frown ... What do they teach in a simulator training in such a situation?! I wouldn't consider trying to go back to the airport the worst possible idea.

See, I'd love to give them reverting the cutout to get back stab control if they went ham applying a lot of uptrim - what I don't understand is why they do so but then give only very little trim input. I mean, they gave significant trim input from 0.4 to 2.3 units to revert the 2nd MCAS action, why now just 0.2 units...
Posted By: Spidey

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/09/19 07:19 PM

I still don't understand why these pilots were going ne as rly full throttle the whole time speed keeps going up amd up out of safety range.
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/09/19 09:25 PM

the question is, is the flaps thing something that all/most MAX pilots knew about before and after the LionAir crash. The first time I heard about it was after the second crash and it's not exactly intuitive.

Does putting flaps to the 1 or 2 or 5 position in a MAX cause a pitch up or a pitch down movement at the margins of the maximum flaps extension speed?

How does the MAX respond to a reduction in thrust while in a climb at high power settings and relatively high altitude? These are some questions that may help explain their thinking.

It looks to me like they diagnosed certain things with more accuracy than I gave them credit for, but the steps they took to resolve the problems..not the right steps.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/12/19 03:24 AM

Ethiopian Crash Data Analysis Points To Vane Detachment

Quote
LOS ANGELES—As the investigation continues into the causes of the Mar. 10 Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX accident, sources close to the probe say flight data recorder (FDR) data firmly supports the supposition that the aircraft’s left angle-of-attack (AOA) sensor vane detached seconds after take-off and that, contrary to statements from the airline, suggests the crew did not follow all the steps for the correct procedure for a runaway stabilizer.

Detailed analysis of the FDR trace data shows that approximately six seconds after liftoff was signaled by the weight-on-wheels switch data, the data indicate the divergence in angle-of-attack (AOA) and the onset of the captain’s stick-shaker, or stall warning. Almost simultaneously, data shows the AOA sensor vane pivoted to an extreme nose-high position.

This, says one source, is a clear indication that the AOA’s external vane was sheared off—most likely by a bird impact. The vane is counter-balanced by a weight located inside the AOA sensor mounting unit, and without aerodynamic forces acting on the vane, the counterweight drops down. The AOA sensor, however, interpreted the position of the alpha vane balance as being at an extreme nose-high angle-of-attack.

With the stick shaker active, the trace indicates the crew pushed forward on the column to counteract what they believed were indications of potential approach to stall. The aircraft, now in level flight, also accelerated rapidly as its power setting remained at 94% N1 thrust used for take-off. This was followed by some manual trim inputs using the thumb switches on the control column.

Seconds after speed advisories were heard, the crew raised the flaps. With the autopilot turned off, flaps up and erroneous AOA data being fed to the flight control computer (FCC), the stage was set for the MAX’s maneuvering characteristics augmentation system (MCAS) to activate. This is indicated by approximately 8-sec of nose-down stabilizer movement, which was followed by the use of manual trim on the control column. However, with the MCAS having moved the stabilizer trim by 2.5 units, the amount of manual nose-up trim applied to counteract the movement was around 0.5 units, or roughly only 20% of the amount required to correctly re-trim the aircraft.

Because of the way the aircraft’s flight control computer P11.1 software worked, the use of manual trim also reset the MCAS timer, and 5 sec. later, its logic having not sensed any correction to an appropriate AOA, the MCAS activated again. The second input was enough to put in the full nose-down trim amount. The crew again manually counteracted with nose-up trim, this time offsetting the full amount of mis-trim applied by the latest MCAS activation.

By then, some 80% of the initial MCAS-applied nose down trim was still in place, leaving the aircraft incorrectly trimmed. The crew then activated the stabilizer trim cutoff switches, a fact the flight data recorder indicates by showing that, despite the MCAS issuing a further command, there was no corresponding stabilizer motion. The aircraft was flying at about 2,000 ft. above ground level, and climbing.

The crew apparently attempted to manually trim the aircraft, using the center-console mounted control trim wheels, but could not. The cut-out switches were then turned back on, and manual trim briefly applied twice in quick succession. This reset the MCAS and resulted in the triggering of a third nose-down trim activation lasting around 6 sec.

The source says the residual forces from the mis-trim would be locked into the control system when the stabilizer cut-off switches were thrown. This would have resulted in column forces of up to around 50 lb. when the system was switched back on.

Although this could have been reduced by manually trimming the aircraft, this did not occur, and the third MCAS activation placed the aircraft in a steep nose-down attitude. This occurred with the aircraft near its peak altitude on the flight—about 6,000 ft. The engines remained at full take-off power throughout the flight, imposing high aerodynamic loads on the elevators as the crew attempted to pull back on the columns.

Vertical acceleration data also indicates momentary negative g during which the AOA sensor on the left side unwinds. This is seen as further validation of the theory that the external part of the alpha vane was detached as the apparent change in angle indication could only be explained by the effect of negative g on the counterbalance weight, forcing it to float up inside the sensor housing. In addition, the captain’s stick shaker also comes off twice in this final phase, further reinforcing the severed vane notion.

The source indicates the crew appeared to be overwhelmed and, in a high workload environment, may not have followed the recommended procedures for re-trimming. Boeing’s stabilizer runaway checklist’s second step directs pilots to “control aircraft pitch attitude manually with control column and main electric trim as needed,” according to one U.S. airline’s manual reviewed by Aviation Week. If the runaway condition persists, the cut-out switches should be toggled, the checklist says.
Posted By: Blade_RJ

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/12/19 03:42 AM

oh sure,now software indicate it was possibly a bird crash......too bad you cant check this out as the plane was totaled ....seems fishy and scape goat to me.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/12/19 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
oh sure,now software indicate it was possibly a bird crash......too bad you cant check this out as the plane was totaled ....seems fishy and scape goat to me.


Read, comprehend, then comment.
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/12/19 11:42 AM

Thinking about the topic (and before F4U posted the article above), I yesterday considered to post about the topic of AoA vane reliability, as it seems in both fatal crashes (and actually already in flights before the first crash) those were the root cause of the problems.
I actually started to calculate a rough failure rate based on the number of planes shipped (393 by 03/19) and an assumed flying time. Then again, that assumed FIT rate would not take service and replacement cycles into cosiderations anyway, so I decided against posting....
The point about that consideration could have been that even "normal" redundancy with a second sensor might not be sufficient if the failure rate is so high.
I just picked me up a certificate on automotive(!) functional safety, so I can somewhat relate to this kind of stuff. Then again, I would assume that Boeing and the FAA have done that job beforehand... pilot
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/12/19 04:52 PM

A robot pilot far above the capability of "auto pilot" could make split second optimal decisions to keep the plane flying. AI could do this completely without emotion or hesitation being able to diagnose flight issues and their solutions in a matter of seconds. The pilot would assume the role of co-pilot, and take a decrease in pay thereby paying for the continued research and upgrade of AI pilots.
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/12/19 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Haggart
A robot pilot far above the capability of "auto pilot" could make split second optimal decisions to keep the plane flying. AI could do this completely without emotion or hesitation being able to diagnose flight issues and their solutions in a matter of seconds. The pilot would assume the role of co-pilot, and take a decrease in pay thereby paying for the continued research and upgrade of AI pilots.

Except that in this specific case it is speculated (but not proven) that after ~33secs of its activation the autopilot gave up and handed the plane back to the pilot because it couldn't make sense out of the sensor readings. They actually activated the autopilot after the AoA vane broke and the stick shaker activated. And they raised the flaps before the autopilot disengaged.
The guy from the videos posted earlier, also posted a nice link explaining a lot about the stab trimming, emergency procedures, and changes in the mechanisms over the 737 evolution. Like that in the past it was possible to cutout autopilottrim, but maintain electric supported amnual trim. That's no longer like that in the MAX.

He also posted a new video on stab trim procedures.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/29/19 02:22 AM

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/b...rned-off-2019-04-28?mod=mw_theo_homepage

new details about the info (or lack of ) given to the airlines

"Plane maker Boeing Co. didn’t tell Southwest Airlines Co. when the carrier began flying 737 Max jets in 2017 that a standard safety feature, found on earlier models and designed to warn pilots about malfunctioning sensors, had been deactivated. Federal Aviation Administration safety inspectors and supervisors responsible for monitoring Southwest LUV, -0.69% , the largest Max customer, were also unaware of the change, according to government and industry officials."
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/29/19 02:55 AM

Bad decision by Boeing but not likely to have affected the outcomes of the two crashes which did occur. Knowing the AoA sensors disagree only tells you that fact - the sensors disagree. That knowledge will not prevent the aircraft from a trim runaway alone, only warn an alert crew that something is wrong with the sensor data reaching the displays. Without the AoA indicator option installed (Which very few airlines have) it does not help much. If you have two AoA indicators a competent crew can quickly determine which AoA is bogus but the steps to ensure MCAS is disabled must still be followed.

Most US carriers do not even have AoA indicators equipped on their aircraft (Which I also think is a bad decision by air carriers, they should all have AoA indicators).

777 display for reference, the AoA indicator's on the right side in the red box. If they disagree the fo's will indicate a different AoA and if it's a bad failure it will be a ridiculous, impossible number if flying at a normal speed.
[Linked Image]

I still think it is ridiculous that they programmed the MCAS to push the nose down based purely on the AoA reading of a single sensor when at the very least it should have used both sensors, or better, it should have used AoA data from both sensors, as well as vertical speed, altitude and pitch attitude to verify if what it thought was happening really was happening. The team that designed this and the inspectors who let it through have a lot of questions to answer. This kind of logic has been built into so many Boeing aircraft before the MAX, I cannot understand what they were thinking. They should have known better. Anyone who's seen a NO AUTOLAND or NO CAT3 annunciation has seen this logic at work when the aircraft detects a problem with the compared data. This stuff was on 747's in the early 90's, why on earth would they leave it out now.
Posted By: Chaz

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 04/29/19 11:42 PM

Boeing's CEO just went on record blaming the pilots for the crash.... so first he apologized and accepts blame. Now, pulls a 180... investors and lawyers getting to him? To blame the pilots for not being able to react properly to a malfunctioning flawed system that, in the first accident, nobody knew anything about and that they had never had sim training in is beyond arrogant. That just shows you how deeply flawed the entire culture is at Boeing.

Thanks. I'll stick to my Brazilian station wagon the E175.
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/12/19 08:18 PM

We saw this guy before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGM0V7zEKEQ

First he blamed it on the pilots, now..
First iteration of the MCAS was much too strong, and could not be overcome in certain situations
Only one control vane per side feeds info in the computer during a flight, next flight it switches to the other one. So no redundancy.
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/12/19 08:39 PM

I think you misunderstood what he said. He has been consistent with his criticism of the pilots - that they didn't respond well to failures that Boeing and FAA shouldn't have allowed to happen.

You've also misunderstood what the MCAS does and how it works. It is not an issue of it being too strong. The issue is that it is able to, albeit slowly, push the nose down too far to maintain altitude. The MCAS itself does not cause stiffness in the trim, that was a result of cutting the stab trim out and resorting to manual control. Stiff manual controls and trim are not unique to the 737. It has been an issue aircraft designers have struggled with since before WW2. Look at the A6M Zero or the P-38 Lightning and the steps the designers had to take to deal with those problems. I won't blame the pilots entirely for not knowing how stiff the trim would be while flying at that speed as it may have been the first time they'd experienced it for real, but many airlines teach a procedure specifically for dealing with stuck manual trim during simulator training (Unloading the aircraft and reducing speed). Pilots who fly recreationally in relatively fast aircraft have all experienced this.

The MCAS does not put in nose down trim particularly quickly. The biggest criticism of the pilots appears to be that they allowed the trim to run away for so long without taking any steps to stop it. In the first incident, they never attempted to stop the trim physically. In fact they never took any steps to stop it at all. This is in stark contrast with the crew who on the previous day, had flown the same airplane and disabled the system immediately once they recognized a trim runaway. In the second crash, the response to the trim running away was slow, though it did occur, but then the system was re-enabled and the trim movement was STILL not stopped. It was the final re-enabling of the MCAS which sent the aircraft into the ground. If they had left it cut out the first time they probably would have had enough time to figure out a better solution.

It does not absolve Boeing of the bad design at all, but it's becoming more clear that certain elements within Boeing made it known that they felt the lack of redundancy with the MCAS was dangerous. They were silenced by management in order to ensure the MAX could be certified for flight without requiring a new type rating or additional training for pilots coming in from other 737's. FAA must have known about this and let it slide.

It's clear Boeing made a very bad decision with this. But it is a demonstrable fact that alert crews recognized MCAS / Trim runaway and responded quickly and appropriately to prevent the situation from escalating BEFORE the first crash happened. What I would like to see the media grab onto, instead of just the poor design decision, is WHY pilot training at airlines operating the type has not been consistent, and WHY pilots are flying on passenger jets without knowing how to handle runaway trim scenarios - one of the most dangerous but preventable technical failures that can occur on any aircraft. Why is it that some crews from the same airline were able to deal with it but not others? It seems to me that regulatory bodies and airline management have more to answer for than just allowing Boeing's bad design choice to make it into service. Lowest common denominator aircraft design does not cut it. Things can and will go wrong with airplanes. The crews need to be competent enough to handle problems when they crop up. One crew from the same airline on the same aircraft literally one day previous was able to handle the emergency, but not the next crew. This speaks volumes about the inconsistency of the training going on there and at other airlines.

My suggestion for airlines in developing nations is to post a third flight crew member with high flight time (In the type being flown) in the cockpit to monitor at all times if the captain has been paired with a low flight time first officer.

Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/12/19 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
What I would like to see the media grab onto, instead of just the poor design decision, is WHY pilot training at airlines operating the type has not been consistent, and WHY pilots are flying on passenger jets without knowing how to handle runaway trim scenarios - one of the most dangerous but preventable technical failures that can occur on any aircraft. Why is it that some crews from the same airline were able to deal with it but not others? It seems to me that regulatory bodies and airline management have more to answer for than just allowing Boeing's bad design choice to make it into service.

At the risk of getting this moved to PWEC (and moderators, please feel free to edit my remarks or delete the post entirely to prevent that), that won't happen. It better fits the media's self-aggrandizing attitude to make worst case scenarios like this out to be the fault of greedy corporate and/or corrupt government types even if, as you pointed out, the evidence indicates that others have successfully dealt with the same problems. That is, "Defective Airliner Caused Crash" sounds better and will sell more papers than "Pilots Failed to Take Corrective Action in Time".
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/13/19 04:19 AM

It was Boeing management that wanted MCAS, and wanted it exactly like it was originally designed, so that the Max 8 could operate on the same type certification without additional pilot training or simulator time. As a result we have 350 dead. If the original iteration of the user manual obfuscates MCAS and its role, and the pilots don't receive specific training to deal with it, I just can't see how it's justified to pin those accidents on the pilots. So, it was "corporate executives", motivated by financial considerations (AKA "greed") that made the call which lead to two preventable disasters. That some air crews managed to identify the issue cannot absolve Boeing upper management from their responsibility. That the FAA permitted the manufacturer to self-certify only adds to Boeing management's responsibility.
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/13/19 08:49 AM

@Longbow,

since this is the public forum and i mean in no way to take this to PWEC, let me explain a few things. I am not into a which is better contest. Airbus has similar problems with its automation systems

Airbus Quantas

and the 737 is still a very good plane. I am aware that the pilots involved in the two 737max incidents did not handle the situation well, and that others might have acted more successfully in keeping the plane from a crash. Also automation for basic tasks is a good thing and lets pilots have their head free for complicated other decisions. In this case with automatics running haywire the pilots seem to have been overstrained.

It seems though that Boeing did not communicate differences well enough to airlines and pilots. The new 737max engines changed the flight physics considerably, and since no one wanted an expensive pilot training the new Max was intended to feel and fly like the usual 737.

The new plane had different engines that caused the plane to rotate due to a shifted center under full thrust, which was intended to be counterbalanced by the MCAS.

Too 'sensational' but well explained

It is stated that a 56 minute iPad "Course" was what pilots of the 737 got to fly the 'Max', and this would have been enough under normal circumstances - which a damaged aoa vane and a runaway stabilizer is not.
The two Aoa vanes are not both used by the MCAS during one flight, but are "cycled" instead. So if one vane feeds data to the computer on one flight, it switches to the other vane in the next flight. So if the one vane fails that feeds the data this flight, there is no redundancy for the automatic system.

The elevators were set to rotate the plane back to normal ascent in case of a too high angle of attack. The MCAS oversteered because of a faulty Aoa vane indicating a too high aoa (again, the other vane may have worked alright, but the data feed came from the damaged one).

So the engines generated full thrust and the aoa was perfectly ok. But the MCAS being fed with wrong data from a damaged vane 'thought' that the Aoa was too steep, so it actuated the elevators to lower the nose. Which lead to the plane lowering the nose and thus getting faster under still full thrust. When the pilots realized that something was wrong they switched off the MCAS and tried to manually trim the elevator back to normal - alright so far.

As tests have shown the manual trimming was probably too slow (switch to manual at 18:50, and see what happens) to get the plane back into horizontal flight path (?). The MCAS trimming the elevator is much faster than you could do it manually, and the latter also needs a lot of strength to turn the trimming wheels, which can only be done by one pilot since the other flies the plane pulling hard. If you see how fast those wheels turn when actuated by automatic and electric engine you can see that time is crucial, and turning the trim wheel against the pressure of the forces, especially when going faster than the usual ascending speed, is almost impossible.

If the pilots had cut the thrust, the plane would have lowered the nose even more because of the trim set prior to switching to manual, while keeping up high speed for a while in then level flight. It looks like the pilots let the 'tilting up' engines run to keep the plane horizontal and counterfight the dropping nose. When this did not work they set the MCAS to on again because they could not actuate the trim fast enough and hoped for the MCAS to assist. They were not able to cope with the force acting on the elevator at that speed. Lowering the flaps to slow down was also impossible due to speed and automatics forbidding it (because of the speed).

Automation, psychology I think this is a very good video:

Quote
"It does not absolve Boeing of the bad design at all, but it's becoming more clear that certain elements within Boeing made it known that they felt the lack of redundancy with the MCAS was dangerous. They were silenced by management in order to ensure the MAX could be certified for flight without requiring a new type rating or additional training for pilots coming in from other 737's. FAA must have known about this and let it slide.


True. I still wonder what Airbus did or does after the crash in the Atlantic to prevent happening this again.

Quote
What I would like to see the media grab onto, instead of just the poor design decision, is WHY pilot training at airlines operating the type has not been consistent, and WHY pilots are flying on passenger jets without knowing how to handle runaway trim scenarios - one of the most dangerous but preventable technical failures that can occur on any aircraft. Why is it that some crews from the same airline were able to deal with it but not others? It seems to me that regulatory bodies and airline management have more to answer for than just allowing Boeing's bad design choice to make it into service. Lowest common denominator aircraft design does not cut it. Things can and will go wrong with airplanes. The crews need to be competent enough to handle problems when they crop up. One crew from the same airline on the same aircraft literally one day previous was able to handle the emergency, but not the next crew. This speaks volumes about the inconsistency of the training going on there and at other airlines.
My suggestion for airlines in developing nations is to post a third flight crew member with high flight time (In the type being flown) in the cockpit to monitor at all times if the captain has been paired with a low flight time first officer.


Amen to that!
But the media are seldomly specialists... same as politicians.
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/15/19 07:01 PM

Audio reveals pilots angrily confronting Boeing about 737 Max feature before second deadly crash
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/us/boeing-737-max-audio-meeting-with-pilots/index.html

or from youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMzc1GEBdcc
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/16/19 10:04 AM

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/2/18518176/boeing-737-max-crash-problems-human-error-mcas-faa

"Human error", on the ground.
Posted By: Chaz

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/16/19 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Haggart
Audio reveals pilots angrily confronting Boeing about 737 Max feature before second deadly crash
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/15/us/boeing-737-max-audio-meeting-with-pilots/index.html

or from youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMzc1GEBdcc


[Linked Image]

This goes back to my previous post. We can banter back and forth for 16 pages on a forum on woulda shoulda coulda..... but none of us were in the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines flight decks. When the sh!t hits the fan, flight controls don't act as advertised, lights, bells and whistles are going off like a Christmas tree on steroids, line pilots are just that: line pilots, not test pilots. Boeing's safety culture is the root cause. They installed a faulty system (without telling anyone) and 300+ people are dead because of it. Their families wants answers, justice, and some closure. The B737 is the only aircraft in history where sales has driven innovation (or lack there of) rather than innovation driving sales. The common type rating at all costs has been the name of the game all along and the mighty guppy might just have finally been stretched in too many directions.
Shall we discuss the faulty rudder system of the 737 that caused 2 hard overs and 100+ lives (not including the handful of other suspected incidents)? How about Lauda Air 004 uncommanded thrust reverser deployment (B767) resulting in a in-flight breakup and 224 lives lost ?
Posted By: WhoCares

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/16/19 02:51 PM

From the Boeing + pilots discussion posted by Haggart, the Boeing rep made one "dangerous" statement: (0:37)
Quote
In a million miles, you're going to fly this airplane, maybe once you're going to see this ever.

I guess he thought that was a rare occurrence?
Let's say a plane cruises at 300kts, that's approx. every ~3000 hours, you would run into this problem. With >300 737MAX already delivered, that would be an incident every ~10 hours.
Okay, he said "may" - assume it was a 1% chance in a million miles, that's then ~1000 hours. If the planes flew an average 10h a day, that would be an incident about every 3-4 month.
Still rare?!?!
He might want to check with his safety and quality experts before talking such numbers - that is, I hope he didn't!

Posted By: Patrocles

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/17/19 11:10 AM

You guys probably know about the issues related to the crashes. I have been hearing snippets on the news, but have been too busy to read or hear anything in detail about cause of the crashes. The Beeb put out an article about the crashes, Boeing, FAA, pilot training, future direction.

What Went Wrong Inside Boeing's Cockpit (BBC)

Posted By: RedToo

Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down - 05/17/19 12:22 PM

That BBC piece is a good summary.
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