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Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games

Posted By: Force10

Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 04:50 PM

I guess I missed this since I wasn't planning on upgrading right away. Apparently, Microsoft is removing support for SecuRom and SafeDisc...so games that use that form of DRM won't run. No Silent Hunter 4, no GRAW...etc.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2015/08/18/microsoft-drm-windows-10/1

I'm sure some are thinking that they will just download some sort of patch/crack to run their legally purchased game...I don't think so:

http://www.t3.com/news/windows-10-will-sniff-out-and-block-pirate-games-and-unauthorised-hardware

Quote:
Windows 10 will sniff out and block pirate games and unauthorized hardware


What's Microsoft's answer for those that want to run their old games that use this DRM? Why...its just a simple matter of purchasing it again from a site like GOG.com that has the DRM removed.

screwy
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 04:51 PM

You can open a command prompt as an admin, type in "sc start secdrv" and it works again. If you want it stopped, "sc stop secdrv".

They disabled the driver per default because it's an unsafe junk driver. They are also rolling this out on Windows 7 and 8.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 04:54 PM

How many people on SimHQ still play games off CD/DVD?

Just curious.
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 04:54 PM

Not only Windows 10, they patched it out also in Windows 7 and 8.

http://www.ghacks.net/2015/09/24/microsoft-update-breaks-safedisc-games-on-windows-vista-7-and-8/
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 05:01 PM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
How many people on SimHQ still play games off CD/DVD?

Just curious.


I play old games all the time. I made ISO's of most of my more frequently used old titles, so I'm not actually putting physical discs in the drive anymore...but the Securom/Safedisc is still there.

Originally Posted By: Sethos88

They disabled the driver per default because it's an unsafe junk driver.


You mean I've been happily playing these games for years without issue and all this time it's been un-safe?

A non-issue for me.
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 05:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10

You mean I've been happily playing these games for years without issue and all this time it's been un-safe?

A non-issue for me.



Every third party driver is potentially unsafe and a potential source of exploitation. Microsoft just decided to keep it enabled by default because it was used by a lot of games at the time. However we've reached an age where Digital and other means of DRM have completely rendered it without use, except for old games. So why should you have a potential vulnerability run be default? If someone has a desperate need to play their old game, they take the 5 seconds and type in the above command.

So complaining about this is making mountains of not even molehills, making mountains out of nothing. They are even rolling this out on Windows 7 and 8.

A non-issue indeed.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 05:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88
Originally Posted By: Force10

You mean I've been happily playing these games for years without issue and all this time it's been un-safe?

A non-issue for me.



Every third party driver is potentially unsafe and a potential source of exploitation. Microsoft just decided to keep it enabled by default because it was used by a lot of games at the time. However we've reached an age where Digital and other means of DRM have completely rendered it without use, except for old games. So why should you have a potential vulnerability run be default? If someone has a desperate need to play their old game, they take the 5 seconds and type in the above command.

So complaining about this is making mountains of not even molehills, making mountains out of nothing. They are even rolling this out on Windows 7 and 8.

A non-issue indeed.


I guess you're also fine with Microsoft scanning your software and telling you what you can and can't use. And what the hell is un-authorized hardware? Now they are going to tell you what hardware you can and can't put in your rig?

"I'm sorry...this peripheral you purchased isn't on our approved vendor list"

I have Windows 7 updates off by default...that way I can pick what I want to update. I also don't have Windows 10 already downloaded and nagging me to upgrade like so many have been subjected to without their consent. With Windows 10, you have to agree to accepting every update they decide to push on you...no matter how intrusive.

Meh...
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 05:22 PM

This is why I won't be getting Win 10 anytime soon. No rush for me to do so until several games come out that I want to play that require DX 12.
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 05:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
With Windows 10, you have to agree to accepting every update they decide to push on you...no matter how intrusive.

Meh...


For 90% of updates in Windows 10, it is still optional, but there are three different settings you have to change to stop the updates. But in case of critical updates, you are correct, they give you no choice.

http://www.howtogeek.com/224471/how-to-prevent-windows-10-from-automatically-downloading-updates/


I see their point from an IT support perspective. A lot of end user issues come from outdated drivers and missing updates. Very few really from a broken update.
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 05:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
I guess you're also fine with Microsoft scanning your software and telling you what you can and can't use. And what the hell is un-authorized hardware? Now they are going to tell you what hardware you can and can't put in your rig?

"I'm sorry...this peripheral you purchased isn't on our approved vendor list"

I have Windows 7 updates off by default...that way I can pick what I want to update. I also don't have Windows 10 already downloaded and nagging me to upgrade like so many have been subjected to without their consent. With Windows 10, you have to agree to accepting every update they decide to push on you...no matter how intrusive.

Meh...


Sounds like you have a major grudge with Windows 10 and latch on to every piece of news like its gospel. Now try doing some research;

https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comme...re_not_so_fast/

Quote:
Short version: the clause in the Microsoft EULA about allowing them to disable counterfeit games and unauthorized hardware is for Xbox and Xbox Live (plus Windows games where MS is the publisher), not Windows.


Windows 10 will not scan your PC and disable your pirated games nor hardware. This is meant for their own closed "Xbox" ecosystem. Basically mimics what you can't do on consoles already in their separate little console environment. It has ZERO bearing on you as a Windows 10 user.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
This is why I won't be getting Win 10 anytime soon. No rush for me to do so until several games come out that I want to play that require DX 12.


This.

The update to DCS World 1.5 looks absolutely fantastic and runs buttery smooth using DX11. I really can't see myself needing more then that right now.

I would fully expect Microsoft to release some eagerly awaited game and slap a "Windows 10" only requirement on it in to try and force more gamers to the platform. Very much like EA did with Battlefield 3...basically forcing people to install Origin if they want the new title.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 06:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88


Sounds like you have a major grudge with Windows 10 and latch on to every piece of news like its gospel. Now try doing some research;

https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comme...re_not_so_fast/

[quote]


You're right...I just read the tech article that was based on Microsoft's poorly worded announcement...I didn't search for more depth by reading the forums of reddit.

And I don't need to do more research to know that Windows 10 data collection and intrusive crap far exceeds any previous versions of the OS. They already have hooks in place to put ads in your start menu, lock screen...etc.

Again...no thanks.
Posted By: Raw Kryptonite

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 06:30 PM

I had to replace my OS SSD, so I went ahead with Win10. Did the upgrade, which didn't run well, but after you've done an activated it after an upgrade, a clean install is no trouble. So, I did the clean install. Better, but not flawless.

I haven't had this many hard locks since Win98. Ctrl-alt-del will not save you. I haven't had to use the reset button on a pc case in YEARS until now.
I didn't know about the mandatory updates before, I don't like that either. Still getting error messages due to it wanting to shut down my headphones driver every time I switch from speakers to headphones. Pretty sure that will get fixed with a new driver release, but still a stupid error.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 06:32 PM

I appreciate all of you guinea pigs who decided to go to Win 10 now so I can be further justified in my decision to hold off. biggrin
Posted By: Raw Kryptonite

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 06:36 PM

You are justified!
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 06:55 PM

This has been back-ported to Win7/8/8.1 already, so it's irrelevant which OS you're using if it's post-Vista, you've got this.

Unless you've failed to install any of the security updates in a long time, of course, but then you've got bigger problems than safedisc...




The Jedi Master
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 07:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
This has been back-ported to Win7/8/8.1 already, so it's irrelevant which OS you're using if it's post-Vista, you've got this.

Unless you've failed to install any of the security updates in a long time, of course, but then you've got bigger problems than safedisc...




The Jedi Master


Well...I have automatic updates turned off and I only do updates manually about once every 6 months or so to Windows...and I select the ones that improve security but don't remove functionality. This is always how I've done my updates...years of doing it this way and "bigger problems" have yet to surface.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 07:18 PM

Yes, and you could've ridden a motorcycle for 30 years without a helmet or insurance and never had an issue, either. Doesn't mean it's a great idea, though. Some of those patches cover astounding vulnerabilities.




The Jedi Master
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Some of those patches cover astounding vulnerabilities.

The Jedi Master


Yep...and those are the updates I want...not the ones that remove my ability to play Silent Hunter 4 or the ones that download a 6gb Windows 10 install package that I didn't want or ask for.


If you want to put un-wavering blind trust in Microsoft...that's fine...but I don't think that's alway's the wisest choice.
Posted By: Gunslinger5577

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 07:29 PM

I upped to win 10 for the Xbox One streaming...which works fantastic btw. No more fighting over the TV so I can play on my console. I play tons of games and haven't run into any issues. Nor did I have any issues with the upgrade or anything else. My ancient version of MS office works great in Win 10 and I prefer the new features over Win 7. I recognize not everyone is having a good upgrade experience (been there before)..but I wanted to share the experience I have so people know its not all bad. I wouldn't go back to 7 if you paid me. I skipped 8. +1 to microsoft on the win 10 upgrade, first time I am saying that give my experiences with 3.11, 95, 98, NT, Win 7.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 07:36 PM

Who said trust? I don't do anything important on my PC, I play games on it. What's MS gonna do, ruin a 10 yr old game on me? I've got far worse problems to worry about. If it stops working, oh well, guess that's one less old game I play. I've got a dozen more where that came from.

Waiting 6 months to institute a patch to a vulnerability, however, means you could be sitting for 5 months with something wide open to a hacker or trojan or something and your PC could be a zombie for all that time while it grabs important stuff from elsewhere. I don't want my banking or CC info stolen off my home network by some Chinese hacker because I was concerned about playing Civ II or something.



The Jedi Master
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Who said trust? I don't do anything important on my PC, I play games on it. What's MS gonna do, ruin a 10 yr old game on me? I've got far worse problems to worry about. If it stops working, oh well, guess that's one less old game I play. I've got a dozen more where that came from.

Waiting 6 months to institute a patch to a vulnerability, however, means you could be sitting for 5 months with something wide open to a hacker or trojan or something and your PC could be a zombie for all that time while it grabs important stuff from elsewhere. I don't want my banking or CC info stolen off my home network by some Chinese hacker because I was concerned about playing Civ II or something.



The Jedi Master


And yet, the very same people are more then willing to go with Windows 10 with it's cloud computing and over zealous collecting practices:

Quote:

SO YOU FINALLY installed Windows 10 and joined the ranks of the other 67 million users. You open your browser to search for a place to grab lunch, and Bing already knows your location. You notice that all the banner ads are geared toward your secret knitting hobby. And when you open Cortana to ask what’s going on, she knows your name and the embarrassing nickname your mother calls you.

This may seems like a stretch, but you’d be surprised by the amount of personal information Windows 10 collects from its users—information including phone numbers, GPS location, credit card numbers, and even video and audio messages. Of course, Microsoft’s privacy statement outlines all the data that is collected, and you agreed to this when you downloaded Windows 10 and checked the terms of service.


Hmmm...I wonder how long it will be before some disgruntled hacking group decides to target MS and share your personal info including name, address, cc numbers and your favorite color.

sigh
Posted By: DaveP63

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 08:35 PM

Zero issues playing any games (including SH4). Zero issues with lockups. Zero BSODs. No issues at all with any of it.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/06/15 08:47 PM

Originally Posted By: DaveP63
Zero issues playing any games (including SH4). Zero issues with lockups. Zero BSODs. No issues at all with any of it.


Are you playing with the DVD in the drive or have you bypassed it with a crack? Or Steam version possibly?
Posted By: rezerekted

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 01:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88
You can open a command prompt as an admin, type in "sc start secdrv" and it works again. If you want it stopped, "sc stop secdrv".

They disabled the driver per default because it's an unsafe junk driver. They are also rolling this out on Windows 7 and 8.


I thought that cmd command was just to enable it on Win7/8? I think on Win10 it is permanently blocked. That is for securom only too, what about Safedisk that they also blocked?

Win10 doesn't check for cracks so you can still use those.
Posted By: DaveP63

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 09:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: DaveP63
Zero issues playing any games (including SH4). Zero issues with lockups. Zero BSODs. No issues at all with any of it.


Are you playing with the DVD in the drive or have you bypassed it with a crack? Or Steam version possibly?


Amazon D/L with 1.5 UBM. Cost about $5.
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 12:21 PM

Originally Posted By: rezerekted
Originally Posted By: Sethos88
You can open a command prompt as an admin, type in "sc start secdrv" and it works again. If you want it stopped, "sc stop secdrv".

They disabled the driver per default because it's an unsafe junk driver. They are also rolling this out on Windows 7 and 8.


I thought that cmd command was just to enable it on Win7/8? I think on Win10 it is permanently blocked. That is for securom only too, what about Safedisk that they also blocked?

Win10 doesn't check for cracks so you can still use those.


No, I actually found that suggested specifically in Windows 10 related topics on the subject. As with Windows 7 and 8, they are just disabling the drivers and services now, due to their unsafe nature and lack of use in today's games. The Secdrv is primarily SafeDisc but also used for SecureRom from what I can read. However SecureRom also requires signed drivers on some occasions. The blocking you are referring to is just articles reporting what Windows does to said driver / service when launched, in a default state.

Also seems there's extra steps to get it working which I missed, the commands are;

To start it;

sc config secdrv start= demand
sc start secdrv

To stop it;

sc stop secdrv
sc config secdrv start= disabled


Plus I'm fairly confident there's no-cd cracks and whatnot to be found for all those older titles, as you mention.

But overall I'm glad they are disabling these garbage drivers and services by default. These drivers have been specifically used in malware attacks and in nefarious rookits. This is exactly what Microsoft is dealing with by being the primary OS of choice today, that fine balance of security and having to support everything out of the box, with ease of use. That triangle never goes together well.

So Microsoft are damned if they do and damned if they don't. People will complain either way.
Posted By: VF9_Longbow

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 12:31 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBH4g_ua5es
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 03:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88


So Microsoft are damned if they do and damned if they don't. People will complain either way.


Yep...they're saints alright.

I wouldn't be damning them if they decided not to turn Windows 10 into a 24/7 data mining operation.

Quote:

All text typed on the keyboard is stored in temporary files, and sent (once per 30 mins) to:

oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
pre.footprintpredict.com
reports.wes.df.telemetry.microsoft.com


Telemetry is sent once per 5 minutes, to:

vortex.data.microsoft.com
vortex-win.data.microsoft.com
telecommand.telemetry.microsoft.com
telecommand.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
sqm.telemetry.microsoft.com
sqm.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net

typing the name of any popular movie into your local file search starts a telemetry process that indexes all media files on your computer and transmits them to:

df.telemetry.microsoft.com
reports.wes.df.telemetry.microsoft.com
cs1.wpc.v0cdn.net
vortex-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
pre.footprintpredict.com


When a webcam is first enabled, ~35mb of data gets immediately transmitted to:

oca.telemetry.microsoft.com
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
vortex-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com.nsatc.net


Everything that is said into an enabled microphone is immediately transmitted to:

oca.telemetry.microsoft.com
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
vortex-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
pre.footprintpredict.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
telemetry.appex.bing.net
telemetry.urs.microsoft.com
cs1.wpc.v0cdn.net
statsfe1.ws.microsoft.com


If this weren't bad enough, this behaviour still occurs after Cortana is fully disabled/uninstalled. It's speculated that the purpose of this function to build up a massive voice database, then tie those voices to identities, and eventually be able to identify anyone simply by picking up their voice
Posted By: Moses

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 04:29 PM

lol smh gets tin foil hat out
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Moses
lol smh gets tin foil hat out


Indeed. It gets tiresome.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 04:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88
Originally Posted By: Moses
lol smh gets tin foil hat out


Indeed. It gets tiresome.


No tin foil hat needed...I just want an Operating system for my computer...not sure why it has to be sending my every keystroke and spoken word to Microsoft.

I guess we truly are sheep when we just don't care anymore as long as we have something new and "shiny".
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 04:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: Sethos88
Originally Posted By: Moses
lol smh gets tin foil hat out


Indeed. It gets tiresome.


No tin foil hat needed...I just want an Operating system for my computer...not sure why it has to be sending my every keystroke and spoken word to Microsoft.

I guess we truly are sheep when we just don't care anymore as long as we have something new and "shiny".



Oh, you need a tin foil hat the size of Latvia my friend. Windows 10, unlike 7 and 8, is meant to be a progressive OS. It's meant to constantly be featured updated, molded and changed on user behaviour and demands. There's no Windows 11 or 12 next year, Windows 10 is meant to be a service. They are also basing the entire OS on the Cortana experience.

For both of these functions to be attractive and to work, they need user information. They gather non-identifying data to improve. Just like Google does. Just like your phone does. Just like Apple hardware does. Just like any major company under the sun does.

No, there's not a Microsoft employee sitting in his undies, checking out your browsing history nor looking into your bank account, which you seem to believe. This is data collection on a MASSIVE scale, to create usage graphs and give Microsoft feedback. Unfortunately, an OS is being used for so much critical stuff that despite everything in today's digital world lives off usage data, Microsoft will catch flak due to people having the usual Microsoft grudge.

And if you don't want to improve the OS, then the the biggest logging features can be turned off in the OS. Then only error reporting and the likes remain. If you want the full tin foil hat package, here's some suggested software that will turn of ALL the features;

http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/destroy_windows_10_spying.html

https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking

http://pxc-coding.com/de/portfolio/donotspy10/

http://pastebin.com/K8Ww4j8z

https://wiiare.in/windows-10-privacy-fixer/

http://www.winprivacy.de/

Then you can confirm with a network protocol analyzer, like Wireshark, that no data is being transmitted.

And ultimately, I suggest you just stay on an out-of-date Windows 7 or 8 to avoid the tracking or even better, look into Linux and create the OS you like.


Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 05:17 PM

Wow, all the hostility directed at someone just because they value their privacy.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 05:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88
They gather non-identifying data to improve.


Hmmm...this is from Microsoft's terms of use:

Quote:


We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to.


Not sure how my private emails to my Mom do to help the overall Windows 10 experience.

Originally Posted By: Sethos88


And ultimately, I suggest you just stay on an out-of-date Windows 7 or 8 to avoid the tracking


At this moment....Windows 7 does everything and plays everything I need it to. Windows 10 would have to make some astounding leaps and bounds for me to sign up with the Big Brother program.

We'll see...
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 05:28 PM

Originally Posted By: F4UDash4
Wow, all the hostility directed at someone just because they value their privacy.




Didn't you know? If you want privacy and don't want to share your every computer movement...you have something to hide!

You are EVIL!

wink
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
Not sure how my private emails to my Mom do to help the overall Windows 10 experience.


https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3f1jvy/we_will_access_disclose_and_preserve_personal/

Quote:
It's because of a case they are currently litigating in New York. US wants to be able to get a warrant to access personal emails and things stored in the cloud in other countries. This isn't something in their control, but they want to protect themselves from getting sued by customers whose data is turned over.

The brief they wrote challenging the decision: http://digitalconstitution.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Microsoft-Opening-Brief-120820141.pdf[1]


You can thank your very own country for that. Microsoft isn't the only company that is forced to abide you know.


Originally Posted By: Force10
At this moment....Windows 7 does everything and plays everything I need it to. Windows 10 would have to make some astounding leaps and bounds for me to sign up with the Big Brother program.


Great. Then stop wasting so much energy telling people why you won't use Windows 10 smile And being a US citizen, I think you are already signed up for the Big Brother program per default.
Posted By: MarkG

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 05:34 PM

Those terms of use are just sad (as is Autodesk's now mandatory renting of its software). frown

++++++++++

There's a structural engineering company in Roswell (Atlanta) GA still using my abandoned software for AutoCAD. I visited them in July, spent a day at the office, talking shop at lunch. I played with their brand new powerful PCs (I don't know specs anymore) running the latest Windows (then 8.1) and AutoCAD 2015.

When I think of the advancements made from 1988 (XT running ACAD2.5) to 1992 (DX2/66 running ACAD12), I'm sure I would have thought in '92 that if I could get just a glimpse of 2015 (23 years later) that it would blow my freaking mind! I mean, if just 4 years can make so much difference in speed and productivity, imagine 23!

My mind would not have been blown, just my heart saddened by what it's become. The old-timers there feel the same way (if not as strongly), they're old enough to remember...

Gaming is different of course.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 05:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88

Great. Then stop wasting so much energy telling people why you won't use Windows 10 smile


It's a discussion forum...get over it.

It's not just a forum to discuss the things you agree with. There is a lot of stuff mentioned here that people would like to know before they pull the trigger on Windows 10...that includes your responses.

With the vigor and informed responses you have given...it definitely appears you might be closer to Windows 10 then just a customer.

Do you work for MS by chance?
Posted By: Flogger23m

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 05:45 PM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
How many people on SimHQ still play games off CD/DVD?

Just curious.


I have a couple of CD based games that I never bought digitally. GRAW 1/2 are some of those. I would also like to play Crysis 1 again sometime to.
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: Sethos88

Great. Then stop wasting so much energy telling people why you won't use Windows 10 smile


It's a discussion forum...get over it.

It's not just a forum to discuss the things you agree with. There is a lot of stuff mentioned here that people would like to know before they pull the trigger on Windows 10...that includes your responses.


But you aren't discussing, you are just machinegunning out cherry picked statements, you find all the nefarious cherry picked lines, you throw out statements you have done zero research on as your ultimate 'proof'. You certainly didn't look for discussion, just a place to dump statements speaking against Windows 10.

You aren't even in a position of asking or inquiring, you just throw down statements and say "this is why I won't use it". Many of these statements I've disproved and you simply just moved on to spitting out the next statement you wanted to hold against Microsoft.

None of that falls under the definition of a discussion.


Originally Posted By: Sethos88

With the vigor and informed responses you have given...it definitely appears you might be closer to Windows 10 then just a customer.

Do you work for MS by chance?


I can assure you have have nothing to do with Microsoft. Neither through work nor monetary investments. However I still like to keep informed about the software and hardware I use, do my own research and apply a bit of logic. If I don't know enough, I won't just go on a long rant about it. If I wasn't happy with what Microsoft offered, I would just use an alternative -- That simple. Windows is, contrary to popular belief, not the only OS available.

But I'm glad you think I could work for them, simply by keeping myself informed.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 06:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88

But you aren't discussing, you are just machinegunning out cherry picked statements, you find all the nefarious cherry picked lines, you throw out statements you have done zero research on as your ultimate 'proof'.


I am putting up quotes from various tech articles yes...many of us do that. I don't care if you don't like it... nor do I really care why Microsoft needs my personal info dispatched to them every 5 minutes...I don't need to "research" why it's done...the fact that it's done at all is enough for some.

I'm wondering why...since you keep yourself so informed and research everything...why you said this?

Originally Posted By: Sethos88
They gather non-identifying data to improve.


When I posted the exerp from MS's terms of use showing that they do collect personal and identifying info...you were quick to show a link showing why...as if you already knew they do collect that info but posted the mis-information above anyway.

Whatever...if you think Windows 10 is great and don't mind the drawbacks as far as privacy...then good on you. I don't know why you feel the need to crap on those that don't agree.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88


None of that falls under the definition of a discussion.



So you are now the sole arbitrator how others express their thoughts. Cool!

duh
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
I am putting up quotes from various tech articles yes...many of us do that. I don't care if you don't like it... nor do I really care why Microsoft needs my personal info dispatched to them every 5 minutes...I don't need to "research" why it's done...the fact that it's done at all is enough for some.

I'm wondering why...since you keep yourself so informed and research everything...why you said this?


Exactly. You found quotes from articles that pandered to your aversion of Windows 10. Instead of actually looking into any of it yourself, you just relied on extreme cherry picking. "I don't need to "research" why it's done" -- No, you've made that clear.

Originally Posted By: Force10

When I posted the exerp from MS's terms of use showing that they do collect personal and identifying info...you were quick to show a link showing why...as if you already knew they do collect that info but posted the mis-information above anyway.

Whatever...if you think Windows 10 is great and don't mind the drawbacks as far as privacy...then good on you. I don't know why you feel the need to crap on those that don't agree.


I was quick because I have an amazing tool called Google (Be careful with this one, they are also by law allowed to read and disclose Email information. They also data mine every one of your searches, tailor search results specifically to you via IP and cookies. Oh and they also log what you do if you use an Android phone.) This topic has been raging ever since the release of Windows 10 and people have spent a lot of time arguing and discussing this very subject. You seem to have joined the wagon very late, thus everything is readily available for me to pass on to you.

And I'm certainly not "crapping on you", however I am taking opposition to the narrow-minded way you are trying to present your "argument". You are almost coming off as one of those crazy 'truthers' you see on the TV in way of presenting your information. I expected more from a person in your position, honestly.

If you wanted a legitimate discussion concerning Microsoft's policies, Windows 10 and your internet privacy in general, where you would be shocked to learn that a lot of your devices collect a lot of data on you, then you would have found I am by no means a fan of Microsoft nor the current course of privacy rules online. However I choose, based on a long pro / con list to deal with it or research how to potentially avoid it. Like it's possible in Windows 10.

And if I don't like what the product offers as whole, I'd pick something else. Simple.

Originally Posted By: F4UDash4
So you are now the sole arbitrator how others express their thoughts. Cool! duh


No, words have meanings and definitions. You should look them up. Not everything falls under the word "discussion", which he pointed out. So if we have to play the pedantic game, sure.

Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 06:44 PM

Fair enough Sethos.

I will just say that privacy is a big concern with Windows 10...and as you've shown...there are steps you can take to mitigate some of the issues with the links you posted. Setting up host's files and firewall rules might not be everyone's forte' though. I think it's safe to say that Windows 10 "out of the box" so to speak, is set up by default to be very invasive...and not to everyone's liking.

wink
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
Fair enough Sethos.

I will just say that privacy is a big concern with Windows 10...and as you've shown...there are steps you can take to mitigate some of the issues with the links you posted. Setting up host's files and firewall rules might not be everyone's forte' though. I think it's safe to say that Windows 10 "out of the box" so to speak, is set up by default to be very invasive...and not to everyone's liking.

wink


Yes, that we can agree on. Windows 10 is going to live off usage data, which they will gather at every turn possible. Another reason why it was "Free" so to speak, you pay in data. The tools I listed earlier should kill it all completely with the press of a button, if you want to upgrade and not have any data leave your computer.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88


Originally Posted By: F4UDash4
So you are now the sole arbitrator how others express their thoughts. Cool! duh


No, words have meanings and definitions. You should look them up. Not everything falls under the word "discussion", which he pointed out. So if we have to play the pedantic game, sure.




Pedantic (ie overly concerned with minute details or formalisms), as in telling someone their discussion style doesn’t meet your standards?

But yes, words do have meanings:

From Merriam-Webster:

discussion
noun dis•cus•sion \di-ˈskə-shən\

: the act of talking about something with another person or a group of people : a conversation about something

: a speech or piece of writing that gives information, ideas, opinions, etc., about something



Nothing Force10 posted falls outside the above definition.
Posted By: rezerekted

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 08:23 PM

I'm betting the EU is going to spank Microsoft's butt soon enough and put an end to Microsoft's data collection over in EuroLand. USAnians need to grow a spine and put a stop to this BS. I would rather pay $150 for the OS than be spied on.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-eu-ireland-privacy-schrems-idUSKCN0S124020151007
Posted By: rezerekted

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/07/15 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88

But overall I'm glad they are disabling these garbage drivers and services by default.


But Microsoft used this DRM software themselves and they should never have allowed it on the OS in the first place. I can clearly remember being bullied by software industry apologists because we cried murder over DRM like Starforce. DRM has stolen money from me is how I see it and it won't go forgotten. I now have zero trust in companies like Microsoft because they have shown they are not to be trusted time and time again. Don't even get me started on Microsoft's GFWL fiasco.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 01:17 PM

Discussing about whether or not you're properly discussing something indicates you've lost your original point. As soon as it becomes about the people and not the point being discussed, it's over.

In other words, you're not going to convince anyone.


Oh, and my favorite comeback has to be the completely pointless "oh so you get to decide how something is discussed." When you're told your argument sucks (not your point, but rather that you're failing to get it across), coming back with "who made you the police" is STUPID. The point is YOU failed, not that someone else is telling you what to do. rolleyes If I type arihgadfobnaoghawriophoparghragnranasrngn;oihgario;gharbnaf;bqerioghbaero and you say "I don't understand that", and I reply "Who made you the word police??!" does that make sense? Or perhaps it would be incumbent on me to more properly word what I was trying to convey?

But no, when being told that you've failed to do something properly, first reaction is to strike back at the person who didn't understand you because it's THEIR fault they don't understand you, not YOUR fault that you didn't make yourself understood, of course.

Geez.


On THE ORIGINAL point, there is no winning. If you use a computer OS of ANY type and it has internet communication, you have ZERO privacy. That is the way it is. Any other assumption is fooling yourself. Think you've protected yourself all you want, it's a delusion, anyone who wants to see what you're doing can. Period.
You want otherwise, write your own OS from scratch, all the rest are compromised. To think "because I do these 75 steps I'm safe" is ridiculous and dangerous, because you're not. So either accept it and move on (assume everything you do and say is monitored) or cut yourself off. You can't have it both ways.

If you think your paranoia is justified, get off the internet. If you want to stay on it, accept that people all over the world, in your country and others, have full access. There is no "safe".




The Jedi Master
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master


On THE ORIGINAL point, there is no winning. If you use a computer OS of ANY type and it has internet communication, you have ZERO privacy. That is the way it is. Any other assumption is fooling yourself. Think you've protected yourself all you want, it's a delusion, anyone who wants to see what you're doing can. Period.



Sure...if they are motivated...anyone can dive deep enough and see where you've been and what you've been doing on your computer.

So...your saying we should just take any of the diligence out of the equation and just hand Microsoft the keys and allow them 24/7 access to your data...all so we can have an improved OS?

Maybe part of the reason I have an issue with it is my age. I'm getting close to 50 years old, so I remember a time when privacy for yourself and your family was something that was generally something everyone was on board with. Apparently now...folks don't care as long as they have a new toy.

I don't use Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. but I can see how the privacy concern is a non-issue for this generation. Everyone seems to have this "look at me" complex where they post their every meal, trip, passing thought and bowel movement online for all to see. They are basically used to their life being an open book...and think the rest of us shouldn't have a problem with it either.


<shrug>
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 06:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master


On THE ORIGINAL point, there is no winning. If you use a computer OS of ANY type and it has internet communication, you have ZERO privacy. That is the way it is. Any other assumption is fooling yourself. Think you've protected yourself all you want, it's a delusion, anyone who wants to see what you're doing can. Period.



Sure...if they are motivated...anyone can dive deep enough and see where you've been and what you've been doing on your computer.

So...your saying we should just take any of the diligence out of the equation and just hand Microsoft the keys and allow them 24/7 access to your data...all so we can have an improved OS?

Maybe part of the reason I have an issue with it is my age. I'm getting close to 50 years old, so I remember a time when privacy for yourself and your family was something that was generally something everyone was on board with. Apparently now...folks don't care as long as they have a new toy.

I don't use Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. but I can see how the privacy concern is a non-issue for this generation. Everyone seems to have this "look at me" complex where they post their every meal, trip, passing thought and bowel movement online for all to see. They are basically used to their life being an open book...and think the rest of us shouldn't have a problem with it either.


<shrug>

By using this web site, using Google, reading the tech posts at other websites, etc., you are revealing a great deal of information about yourself, and no one has to do any digging for it. If you use any email system, particularly an online system (Yahoo Mail, GMail, Hotmail, etc.), you are giving those service providers a great deal of info about you. Your IP address, tracking cookies, search history, articles you've read, email content, all kinds of things are being tracked and/or analyzed, very similar to what Windows 10 is tracking.

I'm older than you and understand your desire for privacy, but if you really want it, the only way would be to start using a generic Linux distro, and stop using the Internet.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master


On THE ORIGINAL point, there is no winning. If you use a computer OS of ANY type and it has internet communication, you have ZERO privacy. That is the way it is. Any other assumption is fooling yourself. Think you've protected yourself all you want, it's a delusion, anyone who wants to see what you're doing can. Period.



Sure...if they are motivated...anyone can dive deep enough and see where you've been and what you've been doing on your computer.

So...your saying we should just take any of the diligence out of the equation and just hand Microsoft the keys and allow them 24/7 access to your data...all so we can have an improved OS?

Maybe part of the reason I have an issue with it is my age. I'm getting close to 50 years old, so I remember a time when privacy for yourself and your family was something that was generally something everyone was on board with. Apparently now...folks don't care as long as they have a new toy.

I don't use Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. but I can see how the privacy concern is a non-issue for this generation. Everyone seems to have this "look at me" complex where they post their every meal, trip, passing thought and bowel movement online for all to see. They are basically used to their life being an open book...and think the rest of us shouldn't have a problem with it either.


<shrug>

By using this web site, using Google, reading the tech posts at other websites, etc., you are revealing a great deal of information about yourself, and no one has to do any digging for it. If you use any email system, particularly an online system (Yahoo Mail, GMail, Hotmail, etc.), you are giving those service providers a great deal of info about you. Your IP address, tracking cookies, search history, articles you've read, email content, all kinds of things are being tracked and/or analyzed, very similar to what Windows 10 is tracking.

I'm older than you and understand your desire for privacy, but if you really want it, the only way would be to start using a generic Linux distro, and stop using the Internet.



Is Google or the like sending my every keystroke...even while not using the internet...to it's data centers every 30 mins?

The problem with the "stop using the internet" comment that seems to be popping up, is that society is now structured where having the internet is almost a requirement...weather you want it or not. My kids are both in college now and some courses will only accept Google docs as a form of work to turn in.

I suppose it's just easier to not make waves then call them out on this intrusive BS and try to get it changed for the better.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 08:03 PM

No company will stop doing it because EVERY company is doing it.
It would be a disadvantage to stop. They can't market it because that would admit they were doing it before while accusing their competitors of doing it, which they can't prove. I'm old enough to know that no company will stop doing something that isn't illegal because having a good image is secondary to stock prices.

The only possibility is a gov't regulation forbidding or restricting it. That doesn't work for 3 reasons:
One--people complain about regulations enough already
Two--there are already a large number in place that this doesn't violate because they admit it (if you look hard enough in the right places, which is how most of this is known in the first place)
Three--sometimes even the gov't admits "that would be way too hypocritical for us to say it shouldn't be done".

So yeah, when no company is going to stop because it increases their profits, and they're all publicly traded, and all their investors want more profits, privacy be damned, and the gov't is no position to mandate otherwise, acceptance or avoidance is all that is left. Any attempt to stop this will be viewed as a left-wing socialist clamp down on corporations/freedoms/speech/blah blah blah.

Anything else is a dream that will stay unrealized.




The Jedi Master
Posted By: Sethos88

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 08:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
Is Google or the like sending my every keystroke...even while not using the internet...to it's data centers every 30 mins?

The problem with the "stop using the internet" comment that seems to be popping up, is that society is now structured where having the internet is almost a requirement...weather you want it or not. My kids are both in college now and some courses will only accept Google docs as a form of work to turn in.

I suppose it's just easier to not make waves then call them out on this intrusive BS and try to get it changed for the better.


Technically, yes they are. Google (via Google search, Gmail, Android OS, Google+, YouTube accounts etc.) is sifting through all your data, also when you are sleeping and basically creating a profile for you, plus using your data as part of a bigger data collection network. All your emails, all your data is constantly used to target ads, target search terms and find out about your usage pattern. So they are logging everything you've written, writing and will write within the confines of the Google services -- Even when using an Android phone. Why do you think they are pushing internet into people's homes, internet so desirable and fast? Because they are further expanding their potential data collection network.

As mentioned, every major company will collect data about you in every way possible. Usage data and person tracking is digital gold.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 08:18 PM

There are two futures:

The gov't knows and tracks everything about you in order to *insert whatever reason you want here*. (left wing paradise/right wing nightmare)
The corporations know and track everything about you in order to sell you stuff. (right wing paradise/left wing nightmare)

There's also the possibility that both will occur simultaneously, of course, however given that people in gov't jobs generally speaking don't need to work hard to keep them while private sector jobs will easily disappear if you don't deliver, I'd bet on the corporations having the leg up on the gov't as opposed to the other way around. They have to be more ruthless to survive, the gov't has no competition. smile




The Jedi Master
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 08:40 PM

I understand what both of you are saying...honest!

I just wish there was an "endpoint" to this. Something where a govt. or oversight committee can draw a line of what's over the top as far as data collection goes. As you said Jedi...everyone is doing it...but do they have to keep one-upping each other on how far they push the envelope?

I think what you guys aren't acknowledging is that we're the frogs slowing being boiled to death here, as they slowly chip away at our privacy and freedoms...who knows where we'll be in 20 years? Possibly cameras being installed in our houses for "our own good"...and you will have folks, much like yourselves...defending that point as being ok since you've slowly become accustomed to having your every movement and action catalogued, indexed and referenced.

wink
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 09:24 PM

Force10, I understand what you're saying about the frogs, but in the case of Windows 10, it's not really any different than what's been going on, so it just seems a bit late to be upset or try to change it. You've been giving out your info for a long time now. My comment about not using the Internet wasn't a suggestion, it was pointing out that you just can't get away from it.

If it's any consolation, Microsoft is fighting the government on some data issues:
http://www.insidesources.com/why-the-mic...-harbor-ruling/
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 09:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
Force10, I understand what you're saying about the frogs, but in the case of Windows 10, it's not really any different than what's been going on, so it just seems a bit late to be upset or try to change it.


You're telling me...this has been going on with other Operating Systems?:

Quote:


All text typed on the keyboard is stored in temporary files, and sent (once per 30 mins) to:

oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
pre.footprintpredict.com
reports.wes.df.telemetry.microsoft.com

Telemetry is sent once per 5 minutes, to:

vortex.data.microsoft.com
vortex-win.data.microsoft.com
telecommand.telemetry.microsoft.com
telecommand.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
sqm.telemetry.microsoft.com
sqm.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net

typing the name of any popular movie into your local file search starts a telemetry process that indexes all media files on your computer and transmits them to:

df.telemetry.microsoft.com
reports.wes.df.telemetry.microsoft.com
cs1.wpc.v0cdn.net
vortex-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
pre.footprintpredict.com


When a webcam is first enabled, ~35mb of data gets immediately transmitted to:

oca.telemetry.microsoft.com
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
vortex-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com.nsatc.net


Everything that is said into an enabled microphone is immediately transmitted to:

oca.telemetry.microsoft.com
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
vortex-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
pre.footprintpredict.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
telemetry.appex.bing.net
telemetry.urs.microsoft.com
cs1.wpc.v0cdn.net
statsfe1.ws.microsoft.com




All text typed on the keyboard is stored in temporary files, and sent (once per 30 mins)? This is happening in Windows 7 when I'm typing offline?

I don't think so. I've never heard of any Operating System logging every keystroke (offline or online) and then sending it home to a data collection center.
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 10:05 PM

First, that analysis does not appear to be representative of the final product. Someone did some direct analysis of what Windows 10 was doing, and couldn't really find the traffic described. They felt it was most likely something being done only in the open beta versions for development purposes.

http://blog.robseder.com/2015/08/16/whats-the-real-deal-with-windows-10-and-privacy/

I'll add a bit more detail here, from a post he put in after the article:

Lastly, to speak directly to the keylogger issue: every reference I could find says that the keyboard cache is stored in: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Diagnosis\etlogs\autologger\*.etl – in fact, I did a “dir C:\ProgramData\*.etl /s /b” and found many files under USOShared – but looking at those files, they aren’t big enough, and with being semi-readable, none appear to have anything interesting in them.

So the bottom line for me, I couldn’t confirm some pieces of this – but just finding those Privacy Statements cleared up a lot for me. Microsoft TELLS you it’s absolutely going to take every search you make, correlate it with you personally, and store it. So those things are confirmed. The keylogger part, I was already dubious. That would mean that Microsoft would capture people’s usernames/passwords, and worse, when you connect into work and type intellectual property for your employer, Microsoft would be gathering those keystrokes – which would be akin to breaking into your company, indirectly. That would be a legal nightmare. I can’t imagine a scenario where the value of those keystrokes would be worth the class-action lawsuit! Plus, I couldn’t find any sign of the cached files, not the network traffic to prove it.


So, yes, MS is gathering search data, etc., much like Google does, but the keylogger seems to not be there.

There have been articles on OS X where it gathers data typed in, Android doing it, plus tracking locations, etc., so yes, other OSes have been gathering info you type, your voice searches in Siri via iOS, etc.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 10:31 PM

I guess I understand why they are giving it away for free at first...you aren't really using their product as much as you are the product.

wink
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 10:34 PM

I'm not sure I see exactly how that relates to my post. In general, they're don't seem to be gathering info that's different than what other services have already been doing. It's pretty much proven that the keystroke info logging and transmitting is not happening.

Why is it worse when Microsoft does it?
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/08/15 11:39 PM

Well...with the whole key logging bit aside for now...all the microphone captures and video chat captures that are sent don't bother you?

The reason it bothers me when Microsoft does it is because they are doing it to an entire Operating System...not jus a phone or a search engine. I don't have Gmail and I don't use my phone to surf...so there's a bit of a difference for me.

I guess there's no real point in discussing it anymore...I get the fact that you guys care zero about privacy as long as you can use Windows 10...and because other mediums have been doing it to a lesser degree it makes it OK.

Point taken.


BTW: My statement about us being the product was mostly geared toward the fact that all this data collected is going toward making more money off us well beyond just using the Operating System itself. It's been shown that hooks are already in place to start putting ads in your start menu bar, lock screen...etc.

Enjoy!
Posted By: Coot

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/09/15 12:01 AM

I still play games off CDroms and DVDs. Panzer I just restarted Crysis which I bought from you years ago. Funny thing though it sounds like its going to brake my drive apart and takes a good 30seconds to read the disk.

My previous PC had no issues. So I checked online and apparently its DRM doesn't play nice with certain brand drives. I don't as much as I used to but I still play game's with physical disks. I just hate re-buying stuff though and try to find a solution. Ifs its classic enough and a cheap and easy fix I'll buy another digital copy like Chaos Theory. Couldn't get that to run some years ago and there was some tedious workaround but RawKryptonite shared with me that Steam's version worked just fine on Windows 7.

In general I like Microsoft stuff as far as desktop PCs, gaming, peripherals and such but also in general I've grown to detest Microsoft and other monster companies that have gained far too much influence and access to the individual person. I don't trust Bill Gates as far as I can throw myself.
Posted By: wheelsup_cavu

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/09/15 12:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Coot
I still play games off CDroms and DVDs. Panzer I just restarted Crysis which I bought from you years ago. Funny thing though it sounds like its going to brake my drive apart and takes a good 30seconds to read the disk.

My previous PC had no issues. So I checked online and apparently its DRM doesn't play nice with certain brand drives. I don't as much as I used to but I still play game's with physical disks. I just hate re-buying stuff though and try to find a solution. Ifs its classic enough and a cheap and easy fix I'll buy another digital copy like Chaos Theory. Couldn't get that to run some years ago and there was some tedious workaround but RawKryptonite shared with me that Steam's version worked just fine on Windows 7.

In general I like Microsoft stuff as far as desktop PCs, gaming, peripherals and such but also in general I've grown to detest Microsoft and other monster companies that have gained far too much influence and access to the individual person. I don't trust Bill Gates as far as I can throw myself.

I agree.


Wheels
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/09/15 02:42 AM

I'm pretty sure we're not going to convince each other of anything, so this will most likely be my last post on the topic. I just thought I'd respond to a couple of things.

Originally Posted By: Force10
Well...with the whole key logging bit aside for now...all the microphone captures and video chat captures that are sent don't bother you?

The reason it bothers me when Microsoft does it is because they are doing it to an entire Operating System...not jus a phone or a search engine. I don't have Gmail and I don't use my phone to surf...so there's a bit of a difference for me.

You keep saying this stuff like it's fact, and in reality, there's no real evidence to support the OS is just capturing video and audio data on its own, and most of it is based on some blogger's misinterpretation (or misrepresentation) of the privacy info. They say general things about Windows 10 privacy, then a bunch of people jump on the bandwagon, and it just keeps building.

For example, I saw someone posting how bad the Windows 10 privacy policy was, and they quote parts of it, like this:

[...]We collect content of your files and communications[...] the content of your documents, photos, music or video [...] the content of your communications sent or received [...]

But what's left out is really important - here's that whole section, with what was left out in bold (note, the privacy policy is not for Windows 10 only, it's for Microsoft products and services in general):

We collect content of your files and communications when necessary to provide you with the services you use. This includes: the content of your documents, photos, music or video you upload to a Microsoft service such as OneDrive. It also includes the content of your communications sent or received using Microsoft services, such as the:
•subject line and body of an email,
•text or other content of an instant message,
•audio and video recording of a video message, and
•audio recording and transcript of a voice message you receive or a text message you dictate.

Additionally, when you contact us, such as for customer support, phone conversations or chat sessions with our representatives may be monitored and recorded. If you enter our retail stores, your image may be captured by our security cameras.

You have choices about the data we collect. When you are asked to provide personal data, you may decline. But if you choose not to provide data that is necessary to provide a service, you may not be able to use some features or services.


So just because you're using Windows 10, this policy doesn't necessarily apply - it's service-specific. But people would rather spread FUD than stick to the boring facts, so you see this being referenced incompletely a lot of places.

Here's an article that discusses how it generally applies:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-tries-to-clear-the-air-on-windows-10-privacy-furor/

If you upload a document to Microsoft's OneDrive servers, and the feds get a warrant, Microsoft will be able to get access to the content of your documents, etc. But not if it's on your C: drive.

Originally Posted By: Force10
I guess there's no real point in discussing it anymore...I get the fact that you guys care zero about privacy as long as you can use Windows 10...and because other mediums have been doing it to a lesser degree it makes it OK.

Point taken.

Nice dig, really helpful in this conversation. No one said I care zero about privacy, I just haven't found any factual evidence to support those claims. And I bring up the other services to point out that you're already giving that same info away, in the same way - because for the most part, IT'S NOT TIED TO THE OS. Yes, Cortana is included in the OS, but you don't have to use it. OneDrive is included in the OS, but you don't have to use it. And so on. You should be complaining about Google just as much, because they do the same thing with their services. If you don't use them, you don't have to worry about it, just like Microsoft services.


Originally Posted By: Force10
BTW: My statement about us being the product was mostly geared toward the fact that all this data collected is going toward making more money off us well beyond just using the Operating System itself. It's been shown that hooks are already in place to start putting ads in your start menu bar, lock screen...etc.

Enjoy!

I'll just state again here, that it's not the OS, for the most part, it's the services. What the OS collects is more around the functioning of the OS, not really your personal info. Things like, what was running when this crash occurred?

It never hurts to be skeptical and untrusting of a new system, and research it thoroughly, and I'm sure things are being collected that I would prefer weren't, but from what I've seen there's nothing that personal being collected and I am fairly confident there isn't someone at Microsoft reading through all my personal data. And most of what personal data is collected is generally used to provide a service. For example, if I ask Cortana for a list of nearby restaurants, it has to have my location. If I want Cortana to remind me of someone's birthday, I need to provide that info, and so on.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/09/15 04:37 AM

Arthonon...you've convinced me...Microsoft always has my best interests in mind. In fact, I think I will download Windows 10 right now.

Hold on a minute...it looks like Microsoft already decided for me that I would want to upgrade to their latest OS. It seems it's already downloaded through my capped internet connection to the tune of 6gb. Funny...I don't remember being given the choice if I wanted to go over my limit. (sarcasm based on real events)

Luckily...Microsoft has no fear of having bandwidth issues of their own since they decided to hitch a ride on their customers bandwidth to deliver this update.

lol

In all seriousness Arthonon...my joke above aside...you made some good points in your post and I read every word. Who knows...maybe the skeptic in me is being a little over zealous.

For now...I will hold off and just take a wait and see approach. I just don't see anything groundbreaking or any "gotta have" features yet. Time will tell on how they decide to use this "possible" un-restricted access and maybe my tune will change over time.

Cheers and thanks for taking the time to write the post above.

cheers
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/09/15 07:42 AM

First of all the argument that "everyone else is doing it" doesn't make it a good thing!

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
We collect content of your files and communications when necessary to provide you with the services you use. This includes: the content of your documents, photos, music or video you upload to a Microsoft service such as OneDrive. It also includes the content of your communications sent or received using Microsoft services, such as the:
•subject line and body of an email,
•text or other content of an instant message,
•audio and video recording of a video message, and
•audio recording and transcript of a voice message you receive or a text message you dictate.

Additionally, when you contact us, such as for customer support, phone conversations or chat sessions with our representatives may be monitored and recorded. If you enter our retail stores, your image may be captured by our security cameras.

You have choices about the data we collect. When you are asked to provide personal data, you may decline. But if you choose not to provide data that is necessary to provide a service, you may not be able to use some features or services.



Thanks but no thanks!

Quote:

It never hurts to be skeptical and untrusting of a new system, and research it thoroughly, and I'm sure things are being collected that I would prefer weren't, but from what I've seen there's nothing that personal being collected and I am fairly confident there isn't someone at Microsoft reading through all my personal data. And most of what personal data is collected is generally used to provide a service. For example, if I ask Cortana for a list of nearby restaurants, it has to have my location. If I want Cortana to remind me of someone's birthday, I need to provide that info, and so on.


We agree on the sceptical part but how do you really know if MS change their thinking and starts to collect more data - the hooks are already there? I would never trust MS/Google/etc. and upload any of my documents/backup files to the "Cloud" or let them comb thru my computers no matter what they say (today) it's for - why take the risk? When lots of valuable information/data is in one place someone gonna try to hack it - it's been proven many times.

When it comes to Windows 10 I can understand that you have to "pay" for it somehow since it's offered for "free" and we all know that there is no free lunch! Thats fine with me since I choose not to use it for several reasons and one of them is the privacy issue. This since I use my PC's for more things than playing sims/games.

IMO MS (mis)uses million and millions of peoples ignorance to spread Win 10 and gain market shares as well as killing Win 7 on the consumer market since they don't wan't Win 7 to be another Win XP.

Last week I had a conversation with a co-worker and his parent had clicked on the "Yes" button poping up without really knowing what she was doing or what EULA she was agreeing to. Since she did the book keeping for their family company at home it resulted in a total reinstall of Windows 7(30+ days had passed). I doubt Windows 10 will be adopted by many companies at least in current form.

The day when I switch over to Linux (already use it for servers) for everything except gaming and use Windows only for gaming seems to get closer and closer.

I'm with you all the way Force10 and it looks like some frogs are already in the pot - jk wink

/KC
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/09/15 12:34 PM

No one said it was a good thing.

Why do people make the erroneous leap that if someone says you can't avoid something and there's no way to stop it that means they think it's a good thing? confused


I'll boil it down to this simple concept: Corporations are made of people. The gov't is made of people.
People are evil.


Nuff said.




The Jedi Master
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/09/15 04:12 PM

For the record, I am not trying to defend Microsoft or Windows 10, just trying to make sure that the information on which people are basing their decisions is accurate. I can give you a lot of issues I have with Microsoft and Windows 10, and I would never try to convince anyone to use their stuff for any reason, especially if they didn't want to. But if you don't want to, do it for real reasons, not stuff that was misunderstood or made up and spread around the Internet.

As far as the "everyone is doing it" aspect, again, I wasn't justifying anything Microsoft was doing, I was just trying to figure out why no one seemed to have a problem giving their info to the other companies, but yet it's the end of the world when Microsoft is doing the same thing.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/09/15 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
No one said it was a good thing.

Why do people make the erroneous leap that if someone says you can't avoid something and there's no way to stop it that means they think it's a good thing? confused



Isn't it an erroneous leap to suggest that you can't avoid Windows 10? It's not a mandatory function of life to download Windows 10 and accept their aggressive terms. If enough people declined citing privacy issues...maybe things would be changed.
Posted By: Wrecking Crew

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/09/15 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master

People are evil.


Only half of them...



When does the Win 10 free upgrade offer expire?

WC
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/09/15 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Wrecking Crew

When does the Win 10 free upgrade offer expire?

WC

It is being offered free for one year, and I think that means it expires in late July of 2016.
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/15/15 09:47 PM

Lest anyone think I'm a Microsoft shill, I find this very disturbing and annoying. I hope Microsoft listens to everyone and stops pushing Windows 10 so hard:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-upgrade-nags-become-more-aggressive-offer-no-opt-out/
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/16/15 12:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
Lest anyone think I'm a Microsoft shill, I find this very disturbing and annoying. I hope Microsoft listens to everyone and stops pushing Windows 10 so hard:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-upgrade-nags-become-more-aggressive-offer-no-opt-out/


Yeah...that's pretty bad. I was at my folks setting up a Roku box they had received as a gift...and I noticed my Mom had the Windows 10 upgrade icon in her system tray at the right. I told her not to do it...it will create big headaches for me as I'm the family IT guy and she lives a few hours away.

You know there are many "older" users that aren't very savvy with will just end up doing it. I still think the reason for the big push...basically trying to force it down everyone's throat...is the revenue they will generate from the info they collect.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/16/15 03:24 AM

Apparently...the forced update was an "accident". <wink wink>

Quote:

We've asked Microsoft what's going on, and the company tells us that enabling the update was done accidentally:

As part of our effort to bring Windows 10 to existing genuine Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 customers, the Windows 10 upgrade may appear as an optional update in the Windows Update (WU) control panel. This is an intuitive and trusted place people go to find Recommended and Optional updates to Windows. In the recent Windows update, this option was checked as default; this was a mistake and we are removing the check.

Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/16/15 05:58 AM

So, is this not avoidable right now?

If they screw up my Win7Pro and all my games, I'm gonna be upset.

Real upset.

I saw the forced windows update to Win10 come in, and couldn't seem to get it off my Windows Update list.
One little mistake, and 'poof', there goes my Win7Pro and all my games!???
Wish I could get it off my Update list.

Not liking that.

So, how do I find out if I have this hog on my HDD right now?
And how do it get rid of it, if I do?
I read those links, and they sound very 'fishy'.
Seems if you click the wrong box, or maybe even if you don't, you might just install Win10.
Ooops.
Right.




Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/16/15 06:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
Lest anyone think I'm a Microsoft shill, I find this very disturbing and annoying. I hope Microsoft listens to everyone and stops pushing Windows 10 so hard:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-upgrade-nags-become-more-aggressive-offer-no-opt-out/


You get that by doing a Windows Update and installing the non critical updates.

I haven't done a Windows Update in a month and I won't.
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/16/15 08:10 AM

Well, I'm beginning to make it a habit to look into the corresponding entry for every non-security, non-office patch. So far at least they haven't been lying about what these items are. Of course this is more onerous, but I've managed to avoid these pesky nagware invasion, or got rid of the items in cases where I wasn't vigilant enough.
It is sad that the world has devolved to this kind of state. Arguably however the writing was on the wall when MS introduced the automatic upgrades as early as Windows 2000. They maintained the pretense of the user still being in control of his computer for 15 year, but that's over now if they have it their way. Not that you're in control with other operating systems, save for maybe OpenBSD.
Posted By: Chucky

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/16/15 09:43 AM

Google 'GWX Control Panel'. Article HERE

It permanently stops the Win 10 upgrade process.My friend just ran it and it seems to work.That is until M$ finds a way around it.
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/16/15 10:06 AM

I downloaded that GWX Control Panel and it didn't find any of those occurrences on my PC.

I turn all that stuff off months ago including disabling Windows Update before all the hoopla over W10 started.

Yay, Me!
Posted By: Wrecking Crew

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/16/15 04:17 PM

I applied some other updates to the Hollo Pointe server today after I unchecked Win 10. The Win10 update kept coming back as checked even after I chose to hide it. Be careful just applying the latest update because right now it will include the Win10.

WC
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/18/15 02:43 AM

Is there any way to get the Win10 update option, or the 'preliminary download', off my computer?
The one where it says it has a 2+ GB Win10 Upgrade, ready to install, "Click Here", I want it gone.

I thought I saw a link, to some instruction on how to do that.
Get it off my HDD.

Anyone have one?
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/18/15 03:38 AM

I haven't tried this, but it sounds like a reasonable approach:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/214...-download-files
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/18/15 07:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Murphy
Is there any way to get the Win10 update option, or the 'preliminary download', off my computer?
The one where it says it has a 2+ GB Win10 Upgrade, ready to install, "Click Here", I want it gone.

I thought I saw a link, to some instruction on how to do that.
Get it off my HDD.

Anyone have one?


http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4182229/Re:_Windows_10?_Yeah...no_than#Post4182229
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/22/15 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
I haven't tried this, but it sounds like a reasonable approach:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/214...-download-files


Yeah, it sounds reasonable, but it doesn't work.
I can't find the KB3035583 update, or the <$WINDOWS.~BT> folder.
And I have 'show hidden folders' enabled.
Right now I still have Win7Pro OS.

But I still have the Win10 update downloaded and "READY TO INSTALL" according to my windows update. If I click the wrong button, my OS is toast.
Lucky I have 'notify me before installing any updates'. But how long that will stop them is unknown.

If they screw up my Win7PRO operating system, I'm gonna be pizzed.
This computer is worthless, if I can't play my older flight sims.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/22/15 11:44 PM

Murph,

I don't know if this will work for you...and I claim no responsibility for damage to your system or emotional state of mind...lol.

Anyway...I mentioned earlier about going to my Mom's house and seeing the Windows 10 deal in her task bar on the right. After finding out that it could force her to install with one wrong click, I called her and had her do a system restore to an earlier date.

Basically...I had her open system restore and tell me what restore points she had available. Her earliest restore point was September 15th...and from what I read, that's the date you want to go back to or earlier. I had her do a restore from that September 15th date and after it was done she told me the Windows 10 nagware was gone. I then had her turn off automatic updates...basically set it to "Never". I will have her turn this on later after the dust settles and it's safe to do so.

I don't know if you've used system restore before...but it doesn't affect documents. If you have installed a program or did a hardware update after September 15th (or after the restore point date you choose)...that will be affected.

Basically anything that uses a registry entry will be affected.

Not sure if you want to try this or not...if you don't have a restore point for September 15th or earlier...it's a no go regardless.
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/23/15 12:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Murphy
Originally Posted By: Arthonon
I haven't tried this, but it sounds like a reasonable approach:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/214...-download-files


Yeah, it sounds reasonable, but it doesn't work.
I can't find the KB3035583 update, or the <$WINDOWS.~BT> folder.
And I have 'show hidden folders' enabled.
Right now I still have Win7Pro OS.

But I still have the Win10 update downloaded and "READY TO INSTALL" according to my windows update. If I click the wrong button, my OS is toast.
Lucky I have 'notify me before installing any updates'. But how long that will stop them is unknown.

If they screw up my Win7PRO operating system, I'm gonna be pizzed.
This computer is worthless, if I can't play my older flight sims.


I think on one of my systems it was in the root of C:, but not sure if that helps you.
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/23/15 12:10 AM

It's pretty sheety for Microsucks to force stuff on people!

Their OS is outdated even the new version.

Windows PC are vulnerables to spywares and adwares and viruses.

People are switching to other OS or buying Apple Product.

Microsucks is losing money so they try to make it up by shoving their crap down our throat?
Posted By: Mad Max

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/23/15 01:17 AM

Murph, if you're referring to the little window square on your toolbar at the bottom, don't worry about it. First of all you've got to click on the window icon which then opens another dialog box that you have to activate to order the upgrade. Here a few days then passed before I was notified that the upgrade was ready for installation. After upgrade you still have at least a month to roll it back to the earlier version.

FWIW I have had no trouble at all from upgrading. In fact my PC is faster.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/23/15 01:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Murphy
Originally Posted By: Arthonon
I haven't tried this, but it sounds like a reasonable approach:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/214...-download-files


Yeah, it sounds reasonable, but it doesn't work.
I can't find the KB3035583 update, or the <$WINDOWS.~BT> folder.
And I have 'show hidden folders' enabled.
Right now I still have Win7Pro OS.

But I still have the Win10 update downloaded and "READY TO INSTALL" according to my windows update. If I click the wrong button, my OS is toast.
Lucky I have 'notify me before installing any updates'. But how long that will stop them is unknown.

If they screw up my Win7PRO operating system, I'm gonna be pizzed.
This computer is worthless, if I can't play my older flight sims.



This worked for me on my very ancient Vaio laptop running windows 7. Please, take great care if you're going to try this. You can back up the registry values before tinkering with them. File -> Export

regedit (search for regedit if you're not familiar with it and regedit.exe will come up)
1. Go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows
2. Create a new key, right click on Windows, select New and select key and type GWX
3. Select the newly created GWX and right click on the right pane, select New then select DWORD, type "DisableGWX"
4. Double-click on the newly create "DisableGWX" and enter the value of 1 for the value data.

Restart and the icon should no longer be there.

Reference: http://www.askvg.com/how-to-remove-get-windows-10-app-and-its-icon-from-taskbar/

Now, for the update deletion of *$WINDOWS*, you can just run the disk cleanup, clean system files. It will take a while and when it does load you'll see "Windows Update Cleanup" which is about 1.74 GB (in my case). That will wipe out the downloaded data.

I don't recommend this unless you're sure windows 7 won't download the data in the background. In my case I accessed the registry of WindowsUpdate/OSUpgrade and just spammed 0 for AllowOSUpgrade, ReservationsAllowed etc.

Commentary: Thanks to this thread I decided to disable GWX. It's an old laptop anyway which I only use for nefarious purposes.

About the OS thing: Linux, Mac and Windows. As a regular user of all three. IMO you can get owned using any of them. You can shift to linux or Mac but if you're more competent and more knowledgeable on Windows then I'd say you're more secure on Windows than the other two.
Posted By: Chucky

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/23/15 08:31 AM

Just a note that GWX Control Panel,the tool that stops the Win 10 update/nagware is up to version 1.4 and now includes the option to delete the update cache.LINK
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/24/15 01:43 AM

I could so far get rid of all three or four attempts by MS to install telemetry spyware and GWX on my machine through the Windows Update dialog in the System Settings where I managed to locate the corresponding entries and either uninstalled them (then marked them to never be installed again), or prevented them from installing right away.
So, while it may not be possible to do it with the tray icon itself, it's still possible without registry hacks if you go through the list of installed updates.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/24/15 08:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Force10
You know there are many "older" users that aren't very savvy with will just end up doing it. I still think the reason for the big push...basically trying to force it down everyone's throat...is the revenue they will generate from the info they collect.


^This!

Sign of desperation?

/KC
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/24/15 08:50 AM

Of course it is.
Then again, maybe consumer preferences HAVE massively changed and as a corporation can cannot ignore that and stay relevant. Microsoft is too important in the business IT market in order to be easily replaced, but of course they want to remain attractive for the individual user, and that means they have to do something about the mobile sector.


I'm not against the ideas behind Windows 10. I'm just concerned about the way they are executed. wink
Posted By: Warbirds

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/24/15 11:09 AM

Love win 10. Don't care about what they use or take from my gaming pc. Important stuff is on my old xp pc. Only thing I am not happy about is that win 10 will not accept most bluetooth drivers that worked find in 8.
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/24/15 11:11 AM

I just ran that new control panel and still nothing on my PC.

I guess I am just lucky and careful since I don't let WUpdate automatically put anything on my computer.

I also don't let it auto search for an update. I have it completely disabled in services.msc.

Plus the service is kooky!

I ran it manually and it wanted to install with a security patch for IE 10.

I don't have IE on my computer. I haven't used IE since version 5.5 nor have I had a physical full copy of any version of IE on any of my computers and laptop since 5.5

Same goes for Windows Media Player. The last version I had was maybe 7.0?

I hated WMP! Every time you want to play a video that's free standing on your hard drive, it wants to take a lot of time first to connect to the internet.

Why does it want to connect to the internet? The file is on my hard drive. It makes me wonder if it's spying on you by scanning your hard drive and reporting what's on your hard drive to Microsoft.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/24/15 09:49 PM

I can tell you guys, that oselisan's registry hack DOES work.
It's gone from my update list, deleted, and the download is gone from my HDD.

I just got 2,850MB's smaller, and I like it.

Don't know how I got that on my HDD, as I have my updates set to "allow me to decide", whether to install them or not. But somehow it just dropped almost 3000 MBs onto my HD, without me asking for it.
And if it would have given me Win10, it would have ruined my flight sims.

Just like they did with WinXP.
One of the best OS they ever developed.

Management at Microsoft, IMHO, are very pushy people.
If I didn't need Win7Pro to fly flight sims, I'd be using Linux.
I just don't like the way MS does business.


This is the way my system will look..."forever".....


ASUS SABERTOOTH Z77; LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
CASE; Cooler Master HAF 932 RC-932-KKN5-GP R
PSU; CORSAIR HX750 750W RT
Intel CPU i5-3570K Ivy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) 77W Quad-Core HD Graphics
MEM; CORSAIR Vengeance 16GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
VIDEO; EVGA GeForce GTX 770 2GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP SLI Support
HDD; 2 - Seagate Barracuda's 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s
LITE-ON Black 12X BD-R 2X BD-RE 16X DVD+R 12X
DVD-RAM 8X BD-ROM SATA 12X Blu-ray Burner with Blu Ray 3D Feature
ASUS 24X DVD Burner - Black SATA Model
COOLING; Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO
MNTR; SMSNG LED 23.6" 2MS HDMI
Win7 Professional SP1 64-bit
MSSWFF2 stick
Pro Throttle
Pro Pedals
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/25/15 03:50 AM

Good to hear you got it sorted Murph!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/25/15 08:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Murphy
I can tell you guys, that oselisan's registry hack DOES work.
It's gone from my update list, deleted, and the download is gone from my HDD.

I just got 2,850MB's smaller, and I like it.

Don't know how I got that on my HDD, as I have my updates set to "allow me to decide", whether to install them or not. But somehow it just dropped almost 3000 MBs onto my HD, without me asking for it.
And if it would have given me Win10, it would have ruined my flight sims.

Just like they did with WinXP.
One of the best OS they ever developed.

Management at Microsoft, IMHO, are very pushy people.
If I didn't need Win7Pro to fly flight sims, I'd be using Linux.
I just don't like the way MS does business.


This is the way my system will look..."forever".....


ASUS SABERTOOTH Z77; LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
CASE; Cooler Master HAF 932 RC-932-KKN5-GP R
PSU; CORSAIR HX750 750W RT
Intel CPU i5-3570K Ivy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) 77W Quad-Core HD Graphics
MEM; CORSAIR Vengeance 16GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
VIDEO; EVGA GeForce GTX 770 2GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP SLI Support
HDD; 2 - Seagate Barracuda's 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s
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Most likely my old laptop will be running windows 7 for the rest of its electronic life so we're on the same boat. Good to know it worked for you thumbsup
Posted By: Warbirds

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/25/15 11:57 AM

Starting to wonder what you all have on your pc's that make you so paranoid? Like I mentioned earlier use an old XP pc to do your banking or whatever and keep the cable unplugged only plugging it in when you use it. If your really paranoid why do you keep anything that important on a pc?

As far as games and flight sims go for win 10 I have not found one that did not work as well or better than any outdated obsolete op system.
Posted By: 531 Ghost

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/25/15 02:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Warbirds
...

As far as games and flight sims go for win 10 I have not found one that did not work as well or better than any outdated obsolete op system...


CFS 1 and CFS 3 come to mind as well Jane's F/A 18 for me. Weird thing is, CFS 2 works fine.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/25/15 05:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Warbirds
Starting to wonder what you all have on your pc's that make you so paranoid?


Oh Lord...why does not wanting your every keystroke monitored, cataloged, and referenced mean you're a bad person?

Would you accept a free house if your every movement and conversation was video recorded 24/7? If not...that means you're a bad person with something to hide...right?
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/25/15 11:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: Warbirds
Starting to wonder what you all have on your pc's that make you so paranoid?


Oh Lord...why does not wanting your every keystroke monitored, cataloged, and referenced mean you're a bad person?

Would you accept a free house if your every movement and conversation was video recorded 24/7? If not...that means you're a bad person with something to hide...right?


I agree that not wanting to have all of your information monitored in that way ("every keystroke monitored, cataloged, and referenced") does not make you a bad person, or even paranoid. However, anyone who believes Windows 10 is doing that at this point, with all of the actual evidence showing the contrary, *is* paranoid.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 12:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon

I agree that not wanting to have all of your information monitored in that way ("every keystroke monitored, cataloged, and referenced") does not make you a bad person, or even paranoid. However, anyone who believes Windows 10 is doing that at this point, with all of the actual evidence showing the contrary, *is* paranoid.


Again, from Microsoft's terms of use:

Quote:


We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to.


If Microsoft admits to it...what makes it so hard for you to believe? It may not be "24/7"...but it goes beyond any OS I have used before.

I'm curious Arthonon...are you using Windows 10? If so, do you realize they're using your bandwidth to seed Windows updates for everyone?

http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-silently-uses-your-bandwidth-to-send-updates-to-others/

You also commented about the forced Windows 10 fiasco recently...you don't think anyone has a right to be paranoid about this company?

I just don't see how you can put your faith in a company with so much shady crap going on. Who knows what updates will come down the road that pushes the envelope even further.
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 02:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Force10


Again, from Microsoft's terms of use:

Quote:


We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to.


If Microsoft admits to it...what makes it so hard for you to believe? It may not be "24/7"...but it goes beyond any OS I have used before.



I want to discuss this first, because it affects answers to the questions in the rest of your post. Can you show me the link where you got that quote? I can't find it in reference to Windows 10. All I found was a references to other services, such as OneDrive and Outlook.com, in which case that data is actually stored on Microsoft servers. Here's what I found at https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement :

Originally Posted By: Microsoft
Finally, we will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails in Outlook.com, or files in private folders on OneDrive), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to:
1.comply with applicable law or respond to valid legal process, including from law enforcement or other government agencies;
2.protect our customers, for example to prevent spam or attempts to defraud users of the services, or to help prevent the loss of life or serious injury of anyone;
3.operate and maintain the security of our services, including to prevent or stop an attack on our computer systems or networks; or
4.protect the rights or property of Microsoft, including enforcing the terms governing the use of the services - however, if we receive information indicating that someone is using our services to traffic in stolen intellectual or physical property of Microsoft, we will not inspect a customer's private content ourselves, but we may refer the matter to law enforcement.


The Windows 10 section of that page does not contain a reference to accessing any folder content, only performance data that includes information such as the number of folders on the desktop. If you can show me where you got that quote, instead of just quoting it, it would help track down what's really being claimed by Microsoft.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 05:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon


I want to discuss this first, because it affects answers to the questions in the rest of your post. Can you show me the link where you got that quote?


Sure...here ya go:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/02...-DO-NOT-INSTALL

Interestingly enough...the article has a link to their quote but it appears Microsoft has changed the wording to what you posted...at the time it said what I had posted. I'm sure what they collect hasn't changed...but the brutal truth of their wording needed to be "spruced up" to not sound as intrusive.

They more or less were saying "Here's how we will be raping you" but changed it to "Here's how we will be pleasuring you"...lol (that's a quote from someone here at SimHQ on a different subject years ago)

Here's the "services" that are affected:

Quote:


Microsoft Privacy Statement

Your privacy is important to us. This privacy statement explains what personal data we collect from you and how we use it. It applies to Bing, Cortana, MSN, Office, OneDrive, Outlook.com, Skype, Windows, Xbox and other Microsoft services that display this statement. References to Microsoft services in this statement include Microsoft websites, apps, software and devices.

We encourage you to read the summaries below and to click on "Learn More" if you'd like more information on a particular topic. The Service-Specific Details below provide additional information relevant to particular Microsoft services.


I bolded Windows...as they are calling it a service.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 05:27 AM

Originally Posted By: 531 Ghost
Originally Posted By: Warbirds
...

As far as games and flight sims go for win 10 I have not found one that did not work as well or better than any outdated obsolete op system...


CFS 1 and CFS 3 come to mind as well Jane's F/A 18 for me. Weird thing is, CFS 2 works fine.




Thanks for that Ghost.
Saved me the time it would take to check each one.
And I'm fairly sure, you missed a couple more that would not work on Win10.

Win7Pro was the last best OS, for flight sims, and numerous games.
I didn't make a list, but I've read a lot of complaints from users on numerous other forums.
I don't need to find out the hard way.

I just want what I paid for.
Leave it alone, unless I ask for changes, or "UP-GRADES".....lol.... rolleyes

They learned nothing from WinXP.
I'll not buy another OS from Microsoft.

My word.
We each learn at our own pace.
Guess I was slow, I should have kept WinXP offline gaming, and Linux for the internet.
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 05:58 AM

The way I interpret it is that they, in fact, have not changed what they collect, and the new wording is more accurate to what they do. You have to remember that these documents are largely written by lawyers that are not in any way involved with the development and have no idea what it actually does.

And yes, the statement includes Windows, but it is separated by product with a separate section of it specific to Windows, and in that Windows section, the text you've quoted does not appear. Where the text does appear it was changed to specify the services it affects (Outlook.com and OneDrive). If you want to argue that they actually do more, but changed the legalese to make it sound like they're not doing it, then how do you know other services are doing things and they don't even write it up? If Microsoft can do whatever they want and not say, then anyone else can too. So, you'll have to literally stop using everything if you don't trust their privacy statements.

Do I trust Microsoft? No, no more than I trust anyone else. But I research what's going on and base my decisions on facts, and I don't go into a paranoid panic just because a bunch of bloggers create a bunch of click-bait articles. If someone wrote up a blog article saying that SimHQ collects a bunch of personal info without disclosing it, I guess you would have to believe them. For example, here's part of the SimHQ privacy statement:

Originally Posted By: SimHQ
This policy is effective and updated on July 31, 2000, and is subject to change without notice, particularly as new site features are added. For any questions about this policy, please contact guod.


So that means it could have changed without notice some time in the past 15 years, and Guod isn't even involved anymore. How can you trust SimHQ? A blogger could have a field day with that, but SimHQ isn't well known enough to get enough clicks so it won't happen.

You have posted things here that are demonstrably inaccurate, and when shown that it was inaccurate, you seemed to concede that and moved on to something else, but then brought it back up again even though it had been disproven. It just sounds like you've decided what Windows does based on a bunch of bloggers with old info and/or no supporting evidence and refuse to accept facts if they are counter to your beliefs. Based on that, I'm confident there is no amount of evidence that would ever make you reconsider the situation, I've just tried to provide some facts for anyone else reviewing this thread, so I'm done here. I don't care whether people trust Microsoft, install Windows 10, or whatever, I just hope they base their decisions on facts (of which there are plenty to cause concern) and not fear-mongering blog posts.

Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 07:54 AM

So in the same sentence you say there is "cause for concern" and then label it as "fear mongering"? lol

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
and I don't go into a paranoid panic just because a bunch of bloggers create a bunch of click-bait articles.


Rock paper shotgun and Newsweek...a bunch of bloggers? Ugh.

Not to mention there are literally dozens of articles and some utilities that show you how to stop Windows 10 from spying on you...did I imagine those?

I could have sworn just a page or two ago...many users (including yourself) were trying to help our very own admin Murphy, try to get rid of a Windows 10 update download that he didn't ask for and that Microsoft sneakily put on his machine. Only a registry hack worked for him. Something non-tech people and our older generation will not know how to do...I'm guessing these are Microsoft's intended victims.

There is one thing you are 100% correct on however:

You will never...ever...convince me that Windows 10 isn't spyware. Regardless of your "interpretations" or parroting Microsoft doublespeak...Windows 10 out of the box is the most intrusive piece of spyware ever created for an operating system.

Coincidentally, you never mentioned if you were using Windows 10 and if it was poaching your bandwidth to deliver updates to the world. You actually don't have to...everyone that installs Windows 10 has this turned on by default, and it's done so without letting the user know or aware of it.

I know...it's just "fear mongering".

Meh
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 12:51 PM

No, the point is that they have always done this. All that has changed is they're being more upfront about it now.

So by avoiding Windows 10 it's like quitting smoking the "new" cigarettes that have the surgeon general's warning on them, because those are bad, but thinking it's ok to keep smoking really old packs that predate the warning, because those cigarettes back then were fine.

The paranoia is thinking A is safe and B is unsafe. They are equally safe or unsafe, depending on your point of view.




The Jedi Master
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 12:58 PM

I like to keep things simple. I will not go to Win 10 until there are at least 2-3 games out there that I want to play which require DX 12.
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Force10
So in the same sentence you say there is "cause for concern" and then label it as "fear mongering"? lol

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
and I don't go into a paranoid panic just because a bunch of bloggers create a bunch of click-bait articles.


Rock paper shotgun and Newsweek...a bunch of bloggers? Ugh.

Not to mention there are literally dozens of articles and some utilities that show you how to stop Windows 10 from spying on you...did I imagine those?

I could have sworn just a page or two ago...many users (including yourself) were trying to help our very own admin Murphy, try to get rid of a Windows 10 update download that he didn't ask for and that Microsoft sneakily put on his machine. Only a registry hack worked for him. Something non-tech people and our older generation will not know how to do...I'm guessing these are Microsoft's intended victims.

There is one thing you are 100% correct on however:

You will never...ever...convince me that Windows 10 isn't spyware. Regardless of your "interpretations" or parroting Microsoft doublespeak...Windows 10 out of the box is the most intrusive piece of spyware ever created for an operating system.

Coincidentally, you never mentioned if you were using Windows 10 and if it was poaching your bandwidth to deliver updates to the world. You actually don't have to...everyone that installs Windows 10 has this turned on by default, and it's done so without letting the user know or aware of it.

I know...it's just "fear mongering".

Meh

This post perfectly exemplifies what I've been saying. If you actually read the article from Rock Paper Shotgun, for example, you will discover they don't reference a key logger at all, nor do they provide any details on file access. They base their entire argument about it on the outdated text of the privacy agreement you quoted. Yet you continue to state the key logger as a concern. Microsoft is not watching everything you type, nor are they going through your personal files stored on your PC (that we can find any evidence of).

What they are doing is generating and advertising ID, monitoring how your PC is used, what apps are running, etc. I can see people being concerned about that. Cortana and Bing need to track what you type, and if you want things synchronized across multiple PCs, data (such as browsing history, favorites, etc.) has to be uploaded to Microsoft to allow it to be used on another device you log into. It has to get the data onto the other device you log into somehow, and uploading it to a central location that's available from any system you log into seems to be the most logical way to do that. I can see people not liking that, and therefore I think it's a valid concern. If you don't want those things done, in most cases you can avoid them by simply not logging in with a Microsoft account and use a local account instead. Cortana doesn't work, and it can't sync across multiple devices so none of that data is uploaded.

That's the kind of stuff discussed on the Rock Paper Shotgun article called "Windows 10 Is Spying On You: Here’s How To Stop It" found here:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/30/windows-10-privacy-settings/

In it, again, they don't even mention the key logger you can't seem to give up on, and even though they mention files, it's not clear what they mean. They link to two other sites to detail their concerns. The first one is HERE, and it provides no evidence of anything, but bases its concerns on the privacy agreement, and specifically the section that you referenced that has since been clarified. It was also written before the final version of the software was even released.

The second link they use, found HERE is actually a comment about another article found HERE. It also largely bases the file access concerns on the outdated privacy statement.

Both of these articles also discuss the advertising ID, the encryption key being uploaded to Microsoft servers, Cortana, etc., all of which are largely valid concerns, but again, for the most part they agree that doing those things are necessary to make those items function as described (you can't have Cortana find nearby shops automatically if your location isn't shared, etc.).

These are also things that Google and other companies do. And I don't say that to imply that because some other company does it you should be OK with it, I'm bringing it up because it shows that that's how these systems work - you just can't do what they try to do without it. You can use Google, or Yahoo, or Microsoft, but if you want it to find data based on location, etc., then you've got to share it with someone.

I don't like having an advertising ID created, but again, to a large extent lots of companies do something like that (including SimHQ - look in the privacy agreement). Also, Rock Paper Shotgun has this bit of irony in their discussion of Windows 10 advertising: hello, uh, please either whitelist RPS in your adblocker and/or take a look at our Supporter scheme.

So yes, there are things about Windows 10 that I don't like, but I understand them and know what data they are gathering - NOT key logs nor personal files. I don't like the fact that Windows 10 downloaded automatically to people's PCs, nor that it's seeding other updates - all valid concerns and issues. However, the Windows 10 files have nothing to do with gathering personal information, so just because Microsoft is doing that, it doesn't automatically mean they've installed a key logger or are looking at my personal files - they are two completely separate issues.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 04:06 PM

So you're saying this article from PCWorld last month about the key logger and how to disable it is bogus?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2974057/w...ll-has-one.html

I'm very curious why Microsoft doesn't file a lawsuit for making this up.
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 04:48 PM

That article is mis-characterizing what it is - it's not a keylogger, it's a tool that analyzes text to work better with certain systems. For example, on my phone, I type the name of my girlfriend a lot, so now, when it sees the first few characters of her name, it comes up as a suggested word I commonly use.

I can understand that people wouldn't like that and would want to turn it off, but it's not the same as a keylogger. The difference is subtle, and the article doesn't say MS is doing something they're not, so they are not going to sue.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 05:04 PM

Ummm...no. It is the definition of a keylogger.

Just because they aren't using it to steal info for illegal usage like a hacker would...it doesn't make it any less of a keylogger. I understand that given your long rant against me stating Windows 10 doesn't have a keylogger...that you can't reverse your opinion now.

Windows 10 has a keylogger...period.
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 05:20 PM

OK, seriously, my last post on this. I think it's a matter of semantics at this point. Do components of Windows 10 view and analyze your typing? Yes. Are they logging and storing every keystroke somewhere? No.

Here's Kaspersky's definition of a keylogger:
Keystroke logging is an act of tracking and recording every keystroke entry made on a computer, often without the permission or knowledge of the user.

Windows 10 doesn't do that - it analyzes text and records information relevant to the usage, it does not record and store every keystroke. So it me, it's not a keylogger, but if it is to you, knock yourself out, I'm not going to argue it. Regardless as to whether it's a keylogger or not, I can see people not being comfortable with it. Fortunately, there are ways to turn it off.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/26/15 05:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
OK, seriously, my last post on this. I think it's a matter of semantics at this point. Do components of Windows 10 view and analyze your typing? Yes. Are they logging and storing every keystroke somewhere? No.

Here's Kaspersky's definition of a keylogger:
Keystroke logging is an act of tracking and recording every keystroke entry made on a computer, often without the permission or knowledge of the user.

Windows 10 doesn't do that - it analyzes text and records information relevant to the usage, it does not record and store every keystroke. So it me, it's not a keylogger, but if it is to you, knock yourself out.


I guess PCWorld should have you as a consultant then...that way you can correct all of their mis-information and mis-characterizations. wink

I agree that we are down to semantics now.

Peace

salute
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/31/15 03:29 AM

And in related news, Microsucks is going to make it even more difficult for Windows PC users to get out from upgrading to Windows 10.

http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/29/9639414/microsoft-windows-10-automatic-update-recommended

My solution is easy. I totally disabled Windows Update.

The only way my computer will check for new Windows Update files is for me to click on start/all programs/windows update and then on check for updates.

See? Totally disabled!

If it can't download from Windows Update, it can't install anything to create dialogue telling you to update to Windows 10 or anything that will force the Windows 10 installation without your permission.


Posted By: frinik22

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 10/31/15 03:46 AM

In an age where the NSA can spy on every World leader's phone conversations and yours as well I wouldn't worry too much about Microsoft trying to spy on what program I use or website I visit....
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/01/15 09:50 AM

Originally Posted By: frinik22
In an age where the NSA can spy on every World leader's phone conversations and yours as well I wouldn't worry too much about Microsoft trying to spy on what program I use or website I visit....

Hell yeah, let's just surrender.
Posted By: Nate

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/01/15 11:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Ssnake
Originally Posted By: frinik22
In an age where the NSA can spy on every World leader's phone conversations and yours as well I wouldn't worry too much about Microsoft trying to spy on what program I use or website I visit....

Hell yeah, let's just surrender.


No need, you've already lost.

Nate
Posted By: Dart

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/01/15 03:21 PM

I'm holding off on the upgrade just because it's new, and like all normal people I fear and hate all new things - particularly those which cannot be easily destroyed by fire.

However, I am not the least bit shocked that data stored in a "cloud" of any type (and the meaning of what the "cloud" is seems to be whatever the marketers want it to be any more) can and will be accessed by the company that controls it.

It's rather like if another person routinely came to my house and used my computer for their stuff, saving documents, browsing the Internet, etc., and then left. Of course I have the ability to look at it. And if the police came with a warrant saying they wanted to look into my hard drives about the stuff he put on there I'd oblige.

So would I store my tax returns or work up my taxes on servers and hard disks "in the cloud?" No.

OTOH, I long ago figured out that ANYTHING that goes through a company's servers is up for grabs by that company. AT&T can read all my emails, as I use their email servers. Bing and Google know my search histories. Google knows how often I use the web, as I use Chrome as my browser. MicroSoft knows I use Office, as it queries for it to know if I need an update to it.

Hell, back in the days of putting the handset in the modem and ensuring that it was set to either pulse or dial, the local BBS sysop knew when someone had downloaded the latest game or .gif file of the girl in the nude and would make snide remarks about it when one talked to him. Privacy and multi-computer connectivity have as much in common as concrete and Japanese girl bands, and it's been that way from the start.
Posted By: usafmtl

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/01/15 03:30 PM

Here is a great video on optimizing Win 10. The only reason I upgrade is because my computer came with Win 8.1. I just couldn't stand it. Had I had Win 7 on this I would of kept that.


Posted By: Stormtrooper

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/01/15 03:43 PM

Ok I love Win10 now

IL-2 Cliffs of Dover and Ghost Recon AW2 both work on my Alienware now.
On Win7 couldn't get them to work at all.
Posted By: adlabs6

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/01/15 05:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
OK, seriously, my last post on this. I think it's a matter of semantics at this point. Do components of Windows 10 view and analyze your typing? Yes. Are they logging and storing every keystroke somewhere? No.


I suppose what makes me stop and think:

On my little tablet I used to play with (an Android by Visio, not sure which one as it no longer works)... It had the keyboard app stuff that would try to guess my typing. New words, or words unknown to it were added to it's built in dictionary for future reference. Ok, it works most of the time.

On that tablet, I didn't care. Nothing much but recreation going on there.

But on a desktop PC, set to do these same things... What happens when I type strange words called passwords? Are they also captured? Where? Can I prevent this? Can I see the list of what it has added to it's dictionary and remove entries? Are they saved locally, or does it all go to the Microsoft cloud, where it's out of my hands forever?

And I'm not just talking about web forms on HTTPS pages, which are easy to "not capture", but on encryption software dialog boxes, or terminal command lines for GPG? Are those captured or not?

Those kinds of things I do regularly for business, and have no sense of clarity here regarding whether what I type is being saved somewhere or not.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 12:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Nate
Originally Posted By: Ssnake
Originally Posted By: frinik22
In an age where the NSA can spy on every World leader's phone conversations and yours as well I wouldn't worry too much about Microsoft trying to spy on what program I use or website I visit....

Hell yeah, let's just surrender.


No need, you've already lost.

Nate


There's no reason for any government to spy on me. But the escalation is tiresome.

For example, eveyone thinks that a VPN is safe. Back then even people in China could connect to the outside world unhindered using VPN. Then came the DNS and WebRTC leaks.

Next ToR seemed anonymous but then again there was this issue about exit nodes

Another thing, you download files from supposedly trusted sites. Simple right? Not anymore, if you want to make sure then you have to check the signature etc (sha1 or cryptographic key... memory's bad).

People who lose are the ones who can't keep up or are too tired and busy to keep up.


and I'm really... really tired.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 02:01 AM

Keep up Oselisan.

Just go as fast as you can, that's good enough. smile
It's all any of us can do.

Win7Pro plays all my older games, and all the flight sims I use.
Win8 didn't.
I'm happy right where I am.
I don't need any 'updated OS'.

If they force it, I'll cut the cord on my computer, and put Linux on my laptop.
I decide what I buy, what I use, and what OS gets put on my property.
Right or wrong, it's my decision.
Posted By: Mechanus

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 04:03 AM

Originally Posted By: frinik22
I wouldn't worry too much about Microsoft trying to spy on what program I use or website I visit....


There's an inevitability to it that worrying won't do anything anyway. We will move on into a world that increasingly looks like this. Every provider of some kind of online service will collect user data for internal use or to sell to other parties whether we like it or not. The way to get around this is not to participate- good luck. At some point, disconnecting from the global networks will be like not having an identity. It's like not having a Social Security number. Maybe in time, disconnecting oneself from the network will in itself arouse suspicion as someone trying to hide.

The tech industry will become what every futurist, dystopian criticism projects. Even if people acknowledge it, there's little choice other than to go with the flow because there's no alternative once the precedent is set. The generations that didn't grow up with all this technology will eventually die and be replaced by newer generations who never knew what it was like not to have it. And they don't look at privacy the same way, it's not a concern to them.

The tech industry just has to be patient and wait- that's all it has to do. It's simply not a concern for people who make money to regulate themselves if it's better business to proceed this way. People's tolerances will adjust to it little by little, and that's how it works.
Posted By: PV1

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 07:27 AM

"My dear, here we must run as fast as we can, just to stay in place." - the Red Queen
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 09:04 AM

Mechanus, I disagree. There is a manifest demand for privacy, and if MS, Apple, and Google are unwilling (or, due to their business model, uncapable) to address that, people will eventually go and look for alternatives (Linux, as one possible candidate). There will be sufficient demand for at least one non-intrusive alternative.

The Data Kraken wants us to believe that "the trend is inevitable", and indeed they are doing everything they can to make their package convenient for those who don't care. But so far I heard this mantra of inevitability, that privacy is a concept of the past, from people who have themselves a vested interest in that future - Mark Zuckerberg, Eric Schmidt, to name the two most prominent apologists of Big Data.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 12:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Ssnake
people will eventually go and look for alternatives (Linux, as one possible candidate).


I seriously doubt this will happen. People (ie the mass market) want their GUI interfaced user-friendly operating systems.
Posted By: Mechanus

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 04:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Ssnake
Mechanus, I disagree. There is a manifest demand for privacy, and if MS, Apple, and Google are unwilling (or, due to their business model, uncapable) to address that, people will eventually go and look for alternatives (Linux, as one possible candidate). There will be sufficient demand for at least one non-intrusive alternative.

The Data Kraken wants us to believe that "the trend is inevitable", and indeed they are doing everything they can to make their package convenient for those who don't care. But so far I heard this mantra of inevitability, that privacy is a concept of the past, from people who have themselves a vested interest in that future - Mark Zuckerberg, Eric Schmidt, to name the two most prominent apologists of Big Data.


I'm not sure that 'customers will look elsewhere' will last forever. That could be the general idea right now. Perhaps one hundred years from now, it's a different view while slowly consumers become acclimated to the way life and society change.

And it doesn't have to be just PC and mobile platforms and apps, it could be virtually any service. You buy movie tickets with your credit card at kiosk or over the Internet, and your data is collected and analyzed for your tastes (what kind of films you like might interest you in consumer goods that may also relate to that). In this sense, it becomes so 'harmless' that it becomes so pervasive. It's already seeded and the momentum picks up and gets in through the gates under the guise of convenience.

It doesn't necessarily have to happen this instant, it will take a little more time, and that's why I say that patience is what would take us there. People today for example might be turned off by things Google Glass. Perhaps that won't be the case one hundred years from now by the time people are just no longer capable of thinking about privacy (or even just basic offline social skills) the same way anymore. We already see the difference with people born after the Internet- they have a different mindset.

Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 04:58 PM

There are easy-to-use Linux distributions.

What's always been Linux' problem in the end-user market is the availability of end-user software, be it games, be it office software. That's changing, even though I suspect that the actual breakthrough is still years away. It may depend a bit on how serious Valve is pushing Linux as a (gaming) platform.
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 05:06 PM



BEWARE!! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSyo3khWIAAREfJ.jpg

biggrin
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 06:53 PM

People didn't want to pay for their OS. Companies were making the OS and needed to make money doing that. Data mining is the answer. It was tested smaller scale first, now it is big business.

There is just as much chance of a reversal on this as there is of the South turning the tide to win the Civil War today. The difference is that war was obvious and no one was ignorant that it existed.
This war was fought, won, and the new post-war rules put in place ages ago (in computer terms) and you're not going to roll it back.

To say you're not going to surrender in 2015 when Robert E Lee already signed the papers in 1865 is the same thing. You may not want to accept that the war was lost, but it was.

If you continue to use Windows then you have accepted it as well, unless your PC is off the internet and never connects to it. Any "protection measures" you take are just steps to satisfy your own delusion of control.

You don't have the control. You never did. If you're using their product, they have it. Your only power is to not use theirs, which includes the older ones.




The Jedi Master
Posted By: MarkG

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 09:54 PM

I'm taking a wait and see, at some point I'll get a new laptop with Win10+ and maybe I'll keep it, maybe try Linux again (it was fine for going online).

My Win2000 desktop and XP laptop aren't wireless and have no online accessibility, no reason for it.

If you want FULL control, go back to DOS! smile You can easily learn what every file in your OS does (including the couple of hidden ones on your root drive) and anything installed can be removed without a trace it ever existed. You can completely control everything, even how memory is managed.

You know you all miss that! smile

++++++++++

P.S. System Restore (restore points) is a wonderful feature...that I always disable and will never use, I have my own method. I believe this is why Win2000 is so small, it doesn't include lots of stuff I find useless. Not giving NT4 a Defrag went too far, but I like the size/feature balance of 2K, makes XP look like a bloated pig.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/02/15 11:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
People didn't want to pay for their OS. Companies were making the OS and needed to make money doing that. Data mining is the answer. It was tested smaller scale first, now it is big business.

There is just as much chance of a reversal on this as there is of the South turning the tide to win the Civil War today. The difference is that war was obvious and no one was ignorant that it existed.
This war was fought, won, and the new post-war rules put in place ages ago (in computer terms) and you're not going to roll it back.

To say you're not going to surrender in 2015 when Robert E Lee already signed the papers in 1865 is the same thing. You may not want to accept that the war was lost, but it was.

If you continue to use Windows then you have accepted it as well, unless your PC is off the internet and never connects to it. Any "protection measures" you take are just steps to satisfy your own delusion of control.

You don't have the control. You never did. If you're using their product, they have it. Your only power is to not use theirs, which includes the older ones.

The Jedi Master


It's almost as if you can hear the "Lemmings" music playing while reading it.

No...Windows 95 did not collect near the data that Windows 10 does. Just because they slowly strip away privacy doesn't make where they're at now acceptable.
Posted By: MarkG

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/06/15 07:25 PM

This crap is ridiculous...
http://198.65.10.229/DID/Temp/qgoK5Km.jpg

I've decided that when the time comes to test my executables in Win10, I'm going to buy the cheapest laptop I can find just to test what I need and then throw it in the closet.

If Windows ever becomes a SaaS (and MS is already refering to it as a "service"), I'll use it online just long enough for testing.

No FREAKING WAY I'd use this OS for anything more! If Windows ever stops supporting my own compiled Win32 programs (and I doubt this will happen be in my lifetime), I can forget MS even exists.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/06/15 07:33 PM

If it wasn't for PC gaming I would not be using Windows outside of the work environment at all.
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/07/15 09:20 AM

...and there you have it, work and games (panem et circenses). Are there other reasons to use a computer?
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/07/15 03:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Ssnake
...and there you have it, work and games (panem et circenses). Are there other reasons to use a computer?


All of the other stuff you can do on a tablet or a smartphone.
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/12/15 03:14 PM

Threshold 2 (TH2) was released today to non Insiders. A major update with all the improvements and changes from the last 6 months.

If you update, be wary that some of your system settings will need to be re-applied, and if you disabled some of the privacy related settings, they could be re-applied, so check after installing.

Also, run Disk Cleaner after you have made sure everything is working fine, so that you then recover some space from the backed up original install.

http://www.howtogeek.com/232176/whats-ne...10-fall-update/

Posted By: Raw Kryptonite

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/12/15 05:25 PM

Update on my experience:
I RESENT the way updates are handled, but some must have come through at some point. It's much more stable now, no lockups in the last couple of weeks. I got some updated sound drivers (Creative SB card and headphones), so an annoying conflict I was getting with my headphones is no more.
Alt-tab remains unreliable in-game, but then it wasn't always rock solid on Win7 either. I haven't gotten a lock up from the attempt at least, it just won't always do it.

For now, until I discover an issue that I haven't seen before, I'm doing ok with W10. I'm sure something will come up, but perhaps nothing major. I still resent how dumbed down it is. Vista might not have been wonderful (I didn't have a bad experience though) but at least it was the last Win OS that didn't seem like it was "talking down" to me.


As for OS of choice....I'll still take Windows over android. Android limits you in what you can do and corrupts easily. I've yet to have any android device make it more than a couple of years before getting unstable.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/12/15 05:40 PM

And the vast majority of PC games don't run on Android/Linux.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/12/15 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Mechanus
The generations that didn't grow up with all this technology will eventually die and be replaced by newer generations who never knew what it was like not to have it. And they don't look at privacy the same way, it's not a concern to them.


When I'm six feet under I guess I won't care but until then I'm gonna sleep with my tinfoil hat on and put up a fight wink

I agree with you that the younger generation don't see it the same way as older farts like myself but it may bite them in the ass someday - time will tell.

Originally Posted By: Ssnake
...if MS, Apple, and Google are unwilling (or, due to their business model, uncapable) to address that, people will eventually go and look for alternatives (Linux, as one possible candidate). There will be sufficient demand for at least one non-intrusive alternative.


^This!

Really hope Valve have a hit with the newly released Steam Box running Linux!

/KC


Posted By: Raw Kryptonite

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/12/15 08:53 PM

Oh it will. How many get bitten every day sending texts/Snapchats/Instagram/social media posts etc that they don't believe anyone not the intended recipient or group will see?
These kids just don't get it at all. Once it's out there, it's OUT THERE.

Got news for you kids: good parents check. We might not always say anything, but we know what's going on.
Of course, there are those that aren't tech savvy in the least and really have no clue, but there isn't much you can do for the naive.
Even if yours is the good kid.
Posted By: Mechanus

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/12/15 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By: KeyCat




I agree with you that the younger generation don't see it the same way as older farts like myself but it may bite them in the ass someday - time will tell.




It's already doing it. And it's not just privacy. People today are so socially awkward it's painful to watch. During the rare times I can be bothered to watch TV, the characters reflect what relationships between friends and boyfriends and girlfriends have begun to look like in the real world. The boys act like the girls and the girls act like the boys. They all look neurotic and seem incapable of avoiding awkward moments. They'll need to teach classes to youngsters on how to interact with one another in the flesh instead over chat or texting, and it will cause the same kinds of conniptions and anxiety as difficult math courses used to do.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/12/15 10:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master

If you continue to use Windows then you have accepted it as well, unless your PC is off the internet and never connects to it. Any "protection measures" you take are just steps to satisfy your own delusion of control.

You don't have the control. You never did. If you're using their product, they have it. Your only power is to not use theirs,which includes the older ones.


Can you please elaborate what you mean? I use XP and Windows 7 daily and both are connected to the net but I still have control over both - how?

I have automatic updates disabled since day one and only install critical updates manually. Most of the "YOU MUST UPDATE YOUR OS AND ALL PROGRAMS" as soon as we tell you to else you gonna get this or that is IMO pretty much BS if you know what you are doing. Sure there virus/trojans/bugs/etc around but there are also several ways to keep you safe even if you go online with old OS's.

I'm not saying automatic updates is bad for people with low computer skills, for them it may fill a need.

/KC
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/12/15 11:59 PM

I agree....and I have 2 Win7Pro OS's.
One on my gaming computer, which I built, and is NOT connected to the internet, used for offline gaming only.
They are NOT networked together. I transfer new campaigns, patches etc....via a written DVD from my lap top.

The 2nd Win 7 OS is on a laptop, which I use for Email and a FireFox browser for coming here, and any internet browsing I may have to do. It also has only; "Let me decide which updates to install" selected.
And I have adjusted the registry to not accept any OS Upgrades, on both systems.
I can wipe it clean anytime I want, and reinstall a new clean version, from a plug in portable HDD, if it has a problem.

So I do have control of my computers, more than most people anyway....by far.

My Win7Pro systems will never be upgraded to Win10.
I'll switch to Linux for connecting to the internet, if I have to, and keep my Win7Pro gaming box for my flight sim.
I'm not interested in anything else.
It's certain I would have bought many more games, if they had not been so intrusive when you buy them, I won't submit, it's not that important to me.
And I won't submit to Microsoft, or the gaming developers.
I'm certain they're losing money.

But I'm sure the younger generation will never know the difference, when they lose their privacy.
I doubt they even care anymore.
Good luck with that.



Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/13/15 12:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Murphy


But I'm sure the younger generation will never know the difference, when they lose their privacy.
I doubt they even care anymore.
Good luck with that.



The younger generation pretty much lives their life as an open book anyway with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram...etc. They mostly seem to have the "look at me" thing and are looking for that next viral video or pic that will give them 15 minutes of fame. Whatever it takes so they can be "known".

So yeah...I'm pretty sure they don't care much.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/13/15 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: MIguFTD
They disabled the driver per default because it's an unsafe junk driver. They are also rolling this out on Windows 7 and 8.


What post, or 'driver', are you referring to????
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/13/15 08:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Murphy
Originally Posted By: MIguFTD
They disabled the driver per default because it's an unsafe junk driver. They are also rolling this out on Windows 7 and 8.


What post, or 'driver', are you referring to????



Pretty sure he's referring to the Securom/Safedisc driver that the original post was about.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/13/15 10:35 PM

Oh sorry, I lost track, 16 pages ago!....

Is that the one where it was answered just below the OP, where you;

Quote:

You can open a command prompt as an admin, type in "sc start secdrv" and it works again. If you want it stopped, "sc stop secdrv".

They disabled the driver per default because it's an unsafe junk driver. They are also rolling this out on Windows 7 and 8.


And they aren't "rolling anything out" on a computer that is not connected to the internet, or any network.
Unless they've invented tinfoil hats.
But then again, I can appreciate the concern over an unsafe driver.
I wouldn't mind removing that on this laptop, I don't game on this machine.
I still get updates on this laptop, so it may already have been removed.


Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/15/15 05:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Murphy
And they aren't "rolling anything out" on a computer that is not connected to the internet, or any network.


Nor on computers with the automatic update "feature" disabled.

/KC
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/17/15 06:56 AM

This is pretty much same way I feel about Windows Updates!

Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 11/17/15 07:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Sethos88
You can open a command prompt as an admin, type in "sc start secdrv" and it works again. If you want it stopped, "sc stop secdrv".

They disabled the driver per default because it's an unsafe junk driver. They are also rolling this out on Windows 7 and 8.


I tried that on my Win7Pro OS, running as Administrator, and got a DOS return...."is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file." when I entered; "sc stop secdrv" in the command prompt.

I am the administrator.

Don't know if it's because the driver hasn't been installed yet, or if it just won't work.

I think the best way to dodge the bullet, is to disconnect the computer from the internet...period.
I play offline old flight sims anyway. Don't need it to connect, I can D/L campaigns and patches via my laptop and transfer them via written DVD. No networking.

Wish that driver could be turned off, and on. But it doesn't look like it will work.
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/01/15 12:04 PM

Don't worry folks!

With Windows 10, you will still get this:

click on the thumbnail to open animated .GIF (2.25 MB in size)

(slightly NSFW)

Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/04/15 05:53 AM

Someone at another forum I go to posted this.

Looks like W10 is going to be like Vista and ME:

2 Microsucks OS I didn't fall for the hype and I remained with my 98 SE and my XP while all my friends were getting them.

Quote:
Upgraded to win 10 two days ago. Actually, three days ago, but it took one day to upgrade.
Biggest piece of #%&*$# I have ever seen.
It removed seven different programs, though they were labeled compatible with windows 10 (including my Avast IS and CCleaner).
CPU usage went to 100% after some updates.
Then it stopped my wireless internet connection.
I'm usually a cautious guy so I did a full back up of all system and data before the "upgrade" and also a Linux bootable USB stick.
Booting from USB I can surf the net. With windows not. Searched for solution for 20 hours. Nothing has worked.
Needless to say I just reverted to Windows 7, without the need of the backup.
My opinion: DON'T DO IT ! It's not even an upgrade. They are only pushing their apps.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/04/15 01:16 PM

The testimony is obviously from just one guy and I know others have done the upgrade with no issues but as for me I will not be getting Win 10 for a long time. Not until several games come out that I want to play which require DX 12.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/04/15 02:06 PM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
The testimony is obviously from just one guy and I know others have done the upgrade with no issues but as for me I will not be getting Win 10 for a long time. Not until several games come out that I want to play which require DX 12.



I really can't understand why a PC gamer would do otherwise.
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/04/15 02:48 PM

10% of all world Internet traffic is now Windows 10.

Windows 10 is now the second most used OS BY GAMERS in Steam, behind Windows 7.

I can tell you that now both my main PC and laptop are running Windows 10 with no issues. In the case of the desktop, I have been using it since almost the day it was released, and most of that time I was using the Insider (beta) releases. After the TH2 update I have left the insider program (small annoyance of resetting all my preferences with each new beta).

I am now experienced enough in it to recommend it 100%. It is the most stable OS platform from Microsoft in a long time. Every game I was playing in Windows 7 is still working on Windows 10. I find I do no more tweaking in Windows 10 for my games than I had to do in Windows 7. They games even perform slightly better.

The 2 reasons I would recommend not to upgrade -

- If you are in Windows 8.1, there is no rush to upgrade. The differences are there, but are not that significant (for now).

- If you cannot verify that you can get all your drivers to be native Windows 10 drivers, do not upgrade. It is true that Windows 8 drivers work, but really is a 50-50 situation in terms of stability (not from the OS, blame the manufacturers for this).

Is it different?, yes. Is it a bad kind of different?, no. You will get used to it after a few hours of use.

Oh, and if the privacy thing bothers you, there are ways to disable the offending features, or, there is always dropping off the grid. It is not like your current OS, your browser, your ISP, your search engine and some of your programs aren't doing the same thing already.

But choice is a great thing, so use what works for you.

What I mean to say with the above, is that there is no inherent technical or functional issue for not updating.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/04/15 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna
If you are in Windows 8.1, there is no rush to upgrade. The differences are there, but are not that significant (for now).



This applies to me but even if I was still using Win 7 I would not go over to Win 10 until at least the middle of next year.
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/04/15 03:00 PM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna
If you are in Windows 8.1, there is no rush to upgrade. The differences are there, but are not that significant (for now).



This applies to me but even if I was still using Win 7 I would not go over to Win 10 until at least the middle of next year.


Why?
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/04/15 03:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna





Why?


Because I see no reason to as a gamer. Will there be lots of titles coming out next year that require DX 12?
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/04/15 03:44 PM



Everyone should at least be aware of the newer internal features. Memory compression improves performance of repeatedly access resources and data and keeps them out of the disk pagefile:

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/memory-compression-in-windows-10

This improves performance of games that use repeated resources, like textures, even without DX12.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/04/15 04:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna


Everyone should at least be aware of the newer internal features. Memory compression improves performance of repeatedly access resources and data and keeps them out of the disk pagefile:

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/memory-compression-in-windows-10

This improves performance of games that use repeated resources, like textures, even without DX12.



That's nice and all but not worth the headache of me doing an upgrade to what is essentially a beta version of an OS right now. I can wait since my games run plenty well right now under 8.1
Posted By: Peally

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/04/15 04:03 PM

Got better things to do with my afternoons than a voluntary OS upgrade. I'll consider it when it's a needed upgrade and I'm already wasting time installing new PC components or something.

I do enough of this crap at work, I don't like screwing with technology at home smile
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/06/15 02:12 PM

My next PC won't have Windows OS on it even if it means that I have to learn how to use a new OS from scratch.

It will be like the first time I ever used a Windows PC back in 1985.

Windows 1.0 I believe it was?

Posted By: Chucky

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/06/15 02:17 PM

Good luck playing games on it (if that's what you do).That's the only reason I never went to Linux on my gaming machine.I used an old lap-top to experiment with various Linux distro's though.

I've turned all my machines over to the dark side (Win 10).I'm not going back to 7,not now and it's highly unlikely I'll re-visit Linux any time soon either.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/06/15 03:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna
10% of all world Internet traffic is now Windows 10.

Windows 10 is now the second most used OS BY GAMERS in Steam, behind Windows 7.


The reason for that is most likely MS desperate attempt (IMO) to push out Windows 10 to everyone. "Free" stuff is not a bad thing but I had several (not so computer savvy) friends not really knowing what they clicked on when the upgrade offer popped up and MS knows that.

Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Why?


My personal opinion only. In my case Windows 7 does everything I wan't/need and I never had any stability problems on this old rig. I stopped chasing the "latest greatest" many years ago...

If it ain't broken don't fix it!

BTW: I just built a brand new gaming rig last week and bought another Windows 7 Ultimate license for it. This since I like Win 7 better.

/KC
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/06/15 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: KeyCat


If it ain't broken don't fix it!



+1000


I am in the process of building a new gaming PC. It will be Win7 Pro.
Posted By: Airdrop01

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/06/15 03:38 PM

I have Windows 7 professional on a one year old Falcon Northwest rig. It is a great machine. Why would I change what isn't broken?

Also, now I'm getting an extremely annoying box that pops up every few days asking "upgrade now" or "upgrade later."

Is it or is it not true that "upgrade later" still pits crap on my machine? I don't know but if true....

That is a scuzzy business practice in that there is no "don't ask me again" option.

Flat out scuzzy.
Posted By: citizen guod

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/17/15 08:21 AM

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news...-tonight-pop-up
Posted By: WaveHopper

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/17/15 10:23 AM

I haven't touched Windows 10 and I wont be using it. My dad decided to update his and it was a nightmare trying to fix it. Solid works stopped working properly, the Adobe suite was buggy as hell, and none of his programs functioned as they should.

In the end I had to reinstall 8.1 to fix all the issues.

Call me cynical, but a company the size of Microsoft offering a free operating system sets off all sorts of alarm bells.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/18/15 04:41 PM



Pretty lame to not give their own customers an opt-out option and again it shows how (IMO) desperate MS are when they feel the need to force feed Win 10 to clueless users! I think it will bite them in the ass...

Here is another article:

http://www.maximumpc.com/microsoft-makes-windows-10-upgrade-seem-mandatory/

/KC
Posted By: Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/18/15 05:16 PM

Also for win10 users I had a huge update today that took almost an hour to install (not download just install) which reverted a bunch of my settings. Its a royal PITA every time this #%&*$# updates itself. and for what reason? I have no idea it wont tell me what was updated.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/18/15 05:26 PM

I see that my decision to hold off on Win 10 has been greatly justified yet again. smile
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 12/18/15 05:34 PM

It's clear that MS will do whatever it takes to kill Windows 7 so it won't become the new Windows XP - but it will, at least for me LOL! This by force feeding the "free" Windows 10 and get high stats in surveys to have the press saying that Windows 10 is a major hit.

I'm not saying Windows 10 is a bad OS but I personally don't se any benefits to update - on the contrary. Also don't like what MS become and really don't like bullying tactics no matter what company it is. IMO choice is a good thing and by not allowing it just shows their ignorance of their own customers.

/KC
Posted By: citizen guod

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/17/16 11:30 PM

Wait, it gets better.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/16/10780876/microsoft-windows-support-policy-new-processors-skylake
Posted By: JimK

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/17/16 11:40 PM



Jeez, its looking like that Apple Mac is looking better with every push by Microsoft. I will stick with
7 ultimate. After my horrible experience with 10. Talk about a mess to clean up after reverting back.
Posted By: PV1

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/18/16 04:53 AM

Looks like there'll be a run on older Intel cpus for
the next few weeks...
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/18/16 05:11 AM

Originally Posted By: JimK


Jeez, its looking like that Apple Mac is looking better with every push by Microsoft.
Assuming you don't play PC games of which the great majority don't have a Mac version.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/18/16 11:33 AM

I just built a Skylake PC..............
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/18/16 06:09 PM


Not the first time a new Microsoft OS has exclusively supported a new Intel microprocessor feature.

Remember MMX?

SSE2?

SIMD?

All those were improvements on processor instruction sets that could not be supported by older Windows versions.

Old processors will still work, but improved technologies will not be able to run in them.

Same as DirectX12. You will probably be able to run games that support it on old Windows OS versions, but will not have the enhancements of DX12.

This is not Microsoft blocking anything, but supporting improvements for hardware that the old OS code will not support.
Posted By: citizen guod

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/19/16 05:41 AM

Did some more reading on this tonight.

The reason the Skylake processors won't work with Win7 is because Skylake is USB 3.0+ only, so you have to use an old PS2 keyboard and mouse when installing the OS to boot, and before that get the drivers for USB 3 for Win7, put them on a CD and pull them in during install. So not impossible but a PITA. Bib4 is right. New optimization won't be there for Win7 especially after the agreement with MS' enterprise customers 18-month window closes (pun intended).

I know two sim racers that have moved to i7-6700k systems and both are having crashing problems. Maybe this is why. wink

The i7-4790k never looked so good. smile
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/19/16 11:31 AM

Originally Posted By: citizen guod
Did some more reading on this tonight.

The reason the Skylake processors won't work with Win7 is because Skylake is USB 3.0+ only, so you have to use an old PS2 keyboard and mouse when installing the OS to boot, and before that get the drivers for USB 3 for Win7, put them on a CD and pull them in during install. So not impossible but a PITA.



I just built a new Skylake PC, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit. I didn't have to do anything special to install, used USB mouse and keyboard etc.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/19/16 02:28 PM

Originally Posted By: F4UDash4
I just built a new Skylake PC, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit. I didn't have to do anything special to install, used USB mouse and keyboard etc.


Same here! I've read that some had issues but it is still possible to get Windows 7 up running and my new 6700K runs just great @ 4.7 GHz (air cooled) in Windows 7 Ultimate and will do so for a long time.

This is just another desparate MS move to "scare" people to think Windows 10 is the only option.

/KC
Posted By: KRT_Bong

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/19/16 04:03 PM

Microsoft aka Bill Gates have never cared for Games not made exclusively by and for Windows and I just saw an announcement that they were pulling support for Win 8, seems like there is reasoning here for a class action Lawsuit. They are trying to force you to buy their new OS, kind of reminds me of Obamacare..
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/19/16 04:25 PM

Originally Posted By: KRT_Bong
Microsoft aka Bill Gates have never cared for Games not made exclusively by and for Windows and I just saw an announcement that they were pulling support for Win 8, ..



But not 8.1, as I understand.
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/19/16 05:27 PM

It boggles the mind the amount of rationalizing in this thread just to justify avoiding change and allowing progress of operating systems and hardware.

The biggest mistake Microsoft, as a developer did on the last 30 years was to give so much importance to software backward compatibility. By doing this promoting the entrenchment of old low level and driver technology. Supporting a limited memory model until recently, and delaying the adoption of 64 bit based operating systems until recently.

No company can dedicate any significant amount of time, money or staff to support old tech forever.

What Microsoft wants is to establish an update/upgrade model similar to what Apple has with OSX, where support for the old OS version is dropped immediately after the new version is released. PC can always upgrade, but there has to be a baseline, a line drawn where the old tech and systems support stops.

Are they nudging too hard to promote this change? Yes. I cannot think any other way this can happen in any sustainable way for any company, than to provide as many incentives as possible for the user base to upgrade, even to the point of being annoying.

You have choices.

- Do not upgrade to Windows 10 or Windows 8.1, which will limit the access to new upcoming technologies, so as long as you keep your old hardware, you are fine with what you have. You will also be limited to what software you can run in the future (Any of you still use a 32 bit OS?, think about how many games and programs would be unavailable to you if you had stayed on that model).

- Upgrade at any time in the future by paying money (to either 10 or 8.1)- as has been the case with ALL Microsoft operating systems before this one. You then should be planning to also upgrade your hardware.

- Upgrade now for free to Windows 10, which is an unprecedented move, and should give anyone a big hint to what extent is Microsoft is willing to go to move away from old technology and allow hardware companies, and their own software to move ahead, and yes, they want to save tons of money (to justify the OS giveaway). Last I checked, that is what companies do.

- Upgrade to Linux or go for a Mac - which even though are currently limited in selection of applications and games, it seems to be growing every day. You then should be rooting for the Steam Machines, as if the Steam OS becomes popular, it is another solid Unix based free OS to choose from.However, new technology does not become Open Souce from one day to another, so either these improvements will be slow coming in, or then a paid version needs to step up and become a real competitor to Microsoft.

Will rebuilding/reinstalling be needed, yes. Will it cost money if you upgrade your hardware? It always does. Will Microsoft own me since they own all my information? Google already does. Will you need to learn again how to make old software run optimally. Yes. Will some software stop working? Yes. Is it a pain in the butt? Yes.

But I still think it is worth it. All the above is more or less true for every time I have upgraded my OS.

rant-on-off
Posted By: MarkG

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/19/16 05:48 PM

MS has threatened to kill off supporting 32-bit Visual Basic 6 "Classic" (1998) since Vista but it's always a bluff, VB was just too successful to kill support. The last I've read, they've promised support until the year 2025, and I'm sure support will continue even past that...

https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums...4b?outputAs=rss

Limited by their own success?

I now have 5 fully functional PCs in storage that run Windows 2000/XP just fine, enough to last my lifetime. smile Windows can go tablet and "service" (assuming future subscription model), if need be I'll go Linux for going online on a new laptop.
Posted By: citizen guod

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/19/16 08:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna
It boggles the mind the amount of rationalizing in this thread just to justify avoiding change and allowing progress of operating systems and hardware. <snip>


Speaking for myself, "justify avoiding change" isn't correct here. I installed and unloaded Win10 on 3 different machines with very different purposes of use. I wanted to like it, but found too many kludge issues to warrant it remaining on any current machine. Hell, I reformat our computers periodically for the fun of tweaking them. Change and tweaking is fun.

"Allowing progress of operating systems and hardware". Depends on what is perceived as progress. One persons progress is another persons wart on the arse, and only the marketplace decides who is correct. For Microsoft to resort to such onerous tactics to misdirect users into thinking they have no option but to go Win10 is abhorrent and demonstrates corporate irresponsibility. Ends justifying the means at its worst.

New dlls and how it handles code optimization is a good reason to go to Win10, but unfortunately some of the new feature set doesn't further anything beneficial for those who do not want to make online purchases or raise-the-social-media-bar-regardless. So if Redmond says it is progress, that doesn't always make it so.

Most irritating is some of the re-positioning and exclusion of previously included interface items that serve no benefit and require customers to reorient and rediscover. It is essentially a marketing 101 driven function, not a code or interface driven benefit. An example is, where do I control the size if each interface font item in Win10? Not "smaller, bigger" items as a grouping, but actual sizing of individual items? I'm referring to the granularity and control of this:



Performance wise, notice how much stuff -- even new games and apps -- still suggest the user turn off the graphical interface (formerly known as Aero) for better performance?

I'm more than willing to go with an early adaption of a Windows OS. Hell, I even bought Vista Ultimate on day 1. wink But for right now the warts are more prominent than the benefits in Win10.

It will be fine after some time as it settles in and everyone figures out how to disable / deactivate / destroy the fluff.

IMO of course. smile
Posted By: JimK

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 04:37 PM

Good news for Skylake chipsets and Win7.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3024372/h...-after-all.html
Posted By: citizen guod

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: JimK
Good news for Skylake chipsets and Win7.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3024372/h...-after-all.html


There ya go. The marketplace wins again.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3024372/h...-after-all.html

Win10 will be fine after it gets through puberty.

Thanks for posting JimK.
Posted By: JimK

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 04:49 PM

No problem Doug, found this on the news update section on Facebook. Was
rather excited knowing Intel was not going shove 10 down on everyone.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: citizen guod
Win10 will be fine after it gets through puberty.



+1


Like I've mentioned before, I will get Win 10 eventually (ie 1-2 years from now). I'm currently using 8.1 so I feel no rush in upgrading now.
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 06:43 PM

Really very little has changed.

As I mentioned before, newer processors were always going to work with Windows 7 and 8.1, but the full instruction sets would not be supported which means, you are paying for the same processor and get less features/performance. But you can always decide to do that.

Now, addressing the claim that Microsoft was not going to support Skylake on Windows 7.

This is the blog from where all the hoopla was started from:

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/01/15/windows-10-embracing-silicon-innovation/

The blog addresses the commitment by HW companies to support Windows 10, including Intel:

Quote:
We are particularly excited about the work we’ve done with Intel on their new 6th generation Intel Core processors (code named “Skylake”). Compared to Windows 7 PC’s, Skylake when combined with Windows 10, enables up to 30x better graphics and 3x the battery life – with the unmatched security of Credential Guard utilizing silicon supported virtualization. We and our partners are continuing to invest, innovate, and update to drive continued performance improvements across Windows 10 and Skylake devices.


So, you got new security and performance features embedded on the HW (by Intel I may add, not Microsoft) that require a different low level abstraction layer implemented in the OS to work properly. This is not easy to change on previous OS, you might as well re-write the whole thing. The increased security at the hardware level is a good thing. Minimizing hijacks and allowing for recovery even when normal software access is compromised.

Therefore, Microsoft can foresee that in the future, Windows 8.1 and prior versions will not be completely secure, or be able to mature hardwarewise, due to the changes on firmware.

Quote:
At the same time, we know many of these customers continue to rely on Windows 7 for its well understood reliability and compatibility. Windows 7 was designed nearly 10 years ago before any x86/x64 SOCs existed. For Windows 7 to run on any modern silicon, device drivers and firmware need to emulate Windows 7’s expectations for interrupt processing, bus support, and power states- which is challenging for WiFi, graphics, security, and more. As partners make customizations to legacy device drivers, services, and firmware settings, customers are likely to see regressions with Windows 7 ongoing servicing.


In other words, the hardware will work (as long as it is supported by emulated features on software drivers), but each new generation of hardware will work less efficiently on the Windows 7 and 8.1 architecture.

Finally, we get to the controversial part- Where it says Microsoft will end Windows 7 and 8.1 extended support for customers with Skylake processors (and beyond) , earlier than those that stay on older silicon.

Quote:
Support Policy Updates for Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 Customers

With Windows 7 now in extended support, we are focused on our commitment to deliver security, reliability, and compatibility to our installed base on their current systems. Redesigning Windows 7 subsystems to embrace new generations of silicon would introduce churn into the Windows 7 code base, and would break this commitment. Thus, today we are clarifying our Windows support policy:

Windows 7 will continue to be supported for security, reliability, and compatibility through January 14, 2020 on previous generation silicon. Windows 8.1 will receive the same support through January 10, 2023. This includes most of the devices available for purchase today by consumers or enterprises.

Going forward, as new silicon generations are introduced, they will require the latest Windows platform at that time for support. This enables us to focus on deep integration between Windows and the silicon, while maintaining maximum reliability and compatibility with previous generations of platform and silicon. For example, Windows 10 will be the only supported Windows platform on Intel’s upcoming “Kaby Lake” silicon, Qualcomm’s upcoming “8996” silicon, and AMD’s upcoming “Bristol Ridge” silicon.

Through July 17, 2017, Skylake devices on the supported list will also be supported with Windows 7 and 8.1. During the 18-month support period, these systems should be upgraded to Windows 10 to continue receiving support after the period ends. After July 2017, the most critical Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 security updates will be addressed for these configurations, and will be released if the update does not risk the reliability or compatibility of the Windows 7/8.1 platform on other devices.


So note not functionality, but support will be reduced to critical only, is what will be changing/ending earlier on MS platforms older than Windows 10.

You can certainly keep using it though, and it will work.

So what Intel did, is remove the exclusivity for newer chips for Windows 10 (which they had agreed with MS before), but the fact is, the features of this hardware will still be limited and drivers will need to emulate what is not provided by BIOS and the OS HAL.

So just don't expect to receive the same security and performance benefits.

Posted By: Airdrop01

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 07:21 PM

I haven't read all 20pp of this. So forgive if this has been answered:

Why, if Win 7 Pro works perfectly for me, would I ever want to change?

It's not broke. Why would I fix it?

I won't until MS makes me by breaking what I have (which they've tried to do by back dooring their stupid upgrade window that pops up).
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Airdrop01
I haven't read all 20pp of this. So forgive if this has been answered:

Why, if Win 7 Pro works perfectly for me, would I ever want to change?

It's not broke. Why would I fix it?

I won't until MS makes me by breaking what I have (which they've tried to do by back dooring their stupid upgrade window that pops up).



If you are a PC gamer and/or if you are already running Win 8.1 there is zero reason to get Win 10 right now.
Posted By: bonchie

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Airdrop01
I haven't read all 20pp of this. So forgive if this has been answered:

Why, if Win 7 Pro works perfectly for me, would I ever want to change?

It's not broke. Why would I fix it?

I won't until MS makes me by breaking what I have (which they've tried to do by back dooring their stupid upgrade window that pops up).



Why do you change anything that works? Why do you not still watch tube TV or wear leisure suits?

This is the same thing we saw with XP. It took a few years, but people switched. At one point Windows 7 was the devil and XP "just worked."

Eventually, games are going to start taking advantage of things Windows 7 can't provide. At that point, the rest will finally jump ship. I'm still on W7 as well. But I'll switch at some point.
Posted By: Airdrop01

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 08:01 PM

Who says I don't wear leisure suits?
Posted By: MarkG

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 08:08 PM

From a non-gaming/entertainment point of view...

Change is inevitable and for many years change in software was positive and welcomed. I've spent thousands of dollars over the years on software, the same software that I wouldn't accept today for free (incidentally, some of them now ARE free). At the time I thought they were worth every penny, changes almost always meant increased productivity.

Remember the change from DOS to Windows? There were growing pains, while you could multitask easier using Windows "shell", Windows programs required a lot more overhead and usually ran slower and were less robust than their DOS counterparts.

Windows NT/2000 and 9x (with upgraded hardware) made life so much easier. If I *had* to I could still be productive under DOS, using Lotus 1-2-3 for spreadsheets, Word Perfect for word processing and AutoCAD for drafting/designing. Luckily I don't have to, I've upgraded to Windows 2000/XP.

IMO, change today (and for several years now) is more about bling-bling, taking control from the user, requiring an online connection to allow for subscription and rental software (becoming ever mandatory). It's no longer about increased productivity, it's about advertisements and idiot-proofing your box.

No thanks.

If I were a hardcore gamer I might feel differently, of course. But then I'd probably own a console.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 08:13 PM

Originally Posted By: MarkG

If I were a hardcore gamer I might feel differently, of course. But then I'd probably own a console.


If you're not into flight/naval sims or in-depth real time strategy games like the Total War series then a console system is really all you need.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: MarkG
It's no longer about increased productivity, it's about advertisements and idiot-proofing your box.



It's about monetizing your existing customer base aka milking them for more money because the market they serve is generally at saturation.

Since business "wisdom" says you have to keep growing or you become worthless, there are only 2 ways to do this when you have a single product--you get more people to buy it (which is hard once everyone has it) or you get the existing people to pay you more.

Sure, you can raise the price, but if people can keep using your old product indefinitely what does it matter what the price of the new one is?



The Jedi Master
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/20/16 09:26 PM

It is also about cutting costs.

Since Windows XP, and thanks to very long support cycles, Microsoft has basically maintained support for 4 operating systems (five now - XP, 7, 8, 8.1 10 - not counting the server versions), which is unsustainable when suddenly hardware becomes reliable and has a high life/cost ratio. In other words, when customers decide that is not necessary to upgrade their operating system anymore.

If Microsoft was a non-profit or government, maybe we could have claimed they owed us that support since that option would be our "right".

But MS is a business, and in this environment where they seem to be less relevant every year, they have to cut the fat somewhere. They exist to make money, and the old sales and software update model no longer works.

So I see they have two options. Do a straight cut of product support, leave their loyal customers from previous OS hanging in the sun, and move on.

Or, they can try to move people to the platform they have decided they can give the best support in the future, doing away with the new version every X years model and updating and improving on the same base, and THEN, move on as a company.
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/21/16 12:34 AM

Argh. Delete. Wrong thread.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/21/16 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna
It boggles the mind the amount of rationalizing in this thread just to justify avoiding change and allowing progress of operating systems and hardware.


For me it's really not about "resisting" more like commmon sense.

Tell me why I should update if I can't see any new features that I need nor increase my productivity (I use my PC's for more than gaming) compared to running Windows 7 that do everything I need it to do? Then there are the privacy issue, hate the forced updates, never use the cloud stuff and dislike the new flat GUI style.

If it's just for the bragging rights to say "I'm running the latest [insert software name here]" I'm happy to pass. Since many years ago I always ask myself "what do I gain in productivity by updating [insert software name here] and spend time setting things up again and make sure my software/hardware is working equally well?

If the answer is nil/minor common sense says don't fix it if it ain't broken (I know thats an old one but saved me some precious time by following).

When it comes to gaming DX11 will be supported for a long time also in newer games. Remember DX9?

Just my 0.20 SEK

/KC
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/21/16 03:15 PM

The reason is one word--security.

They find exploits in OS almost daily, some are bigger threats than others. At a certain point they stop patching them. Windows 2000 and XP are majorly vulnerable to have connected to the internet anymore.

Now if you want to keep running your Pentium 3 with Windows 98 offline for 10 years, go ahead, it's not a problem. Just don't think that the mountains of malware out there are going to be unable to get at you if it gets online.

It's really amusing that people think that MS is a bigger threat to their privacy then these foreign malwares that are out to steal everything you have.



The Jedi Master
Posted By: MarkG

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/21/16 03:51 PM

Of my PCs and laptops, only one has the capability of connecting online, the Win7 laptop that I'm posting on. To me it's just a toy, only a notch above my tablet (that I hardly use). The PCs/laptops I consider important will never be connected online.

Privacy is not an issue to me (obviously, since I post more personal stuff than anyone here), it's more about control and the possibility of hacking into more than some personal information.

Businesses that get hacked and their work stolen I have no pity for, why is your work even accessible over the internet? Why not keep a closed intranet with a separate avenue for going online that isn't connected to the company intranet? I know my thinking is so old-school.

EDIT: I have both wired and wireless home networks, only the wireless has internet capability. The wireless is just for playing and online shopping.
Posted By: Airdrop01

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/21/16 03:55 PM

You're the Bill Adama of Zachary/Baker/Slaughter, Mark!
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/21/16 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
The reason is one word--security.


Windows 7 will receive security updates until 2020 so at the moment thats a moot point. I'm sure I will update/switch OS someday in the future but that day is still far away since W7 works just fine on my newly built Skylake rig (among a few others).

/KC
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/21/16 04:55 PM

Yes, for now.

Also, if you have a static reliable computer setup, you're good. But if you expect to get the latest and greatest video card in 2020, will there be reliable and optimized Win7 drivers from AMD and nVidia? Will a new mobo have Win7 drivers or will it require Win10 as by then it will be 6 years old already (which is how old XP was when Vista came out, while Win7 will be 11 years old then, or older than Vista is now)?



The Jedi Master
Posted By: MarkG

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/21/16 05:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Also, if you have a static reliable computer setup, you're good.

Or several. smile

My sister called me just last night to make sure I still wanted their WinXP Dell. Heck yeah! I'm out of office closet space for storing PCs but I still have room in the attic...
http://198.65.10.229/DID/Temp/DSCF4539.JPG

Assuming extreme attic temps won't harm it, I'm going to have to research this.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/21/16 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Yes, for now.

Also, if you have a static reliable computer setup, you're good. But if you expect to get the latest and greatest video card in 2020, will there be reliable and optimized Win7 drivers from AMD and nVidia? Will a new mobo have Win7 drivers or will it require Win10 as by then it will be 6 years old already (which is how old XP was when Vista came out, while Win7 will be 11 years old then, or older than Vista is now)?


You are correct! Thats why I wrote "I'm sure I will update/switch OS someday in the future" wink

The new rig I recently built will hopefully be good for the next 4-5 years, maybe even longer. Been really long time since I upgraded so this time I bought pretty much high end of everything (6700K, GTX 980, 16 GB RAM @ 3000 MHz, M.2 SSD along with a 32" 2556x1440 monitor).

/KC
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 01/21/16 07:08 PM

Originally Posted By: KeyCat
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Yes, for now.

Also, if you have a static reliable computer setup, you're good. But if you expect to get the latest and greatest video card in 2020, will there be reliable and optimized Win7 drivers from AMD and nVidia? Will a new mobo have Win7 drivers or will it require Win10 as by then it will be 6 years old already (which is how old XP was when Vista came out, while Win7 will be 11 years old then, or older than Vista is now)?


You are correct! Thats why I wrote "I'm sure I will update/switch OS someday in the future" wink

The new rig I recently built will hopefully be good for the next 4-5 years, maybe even longer. Been really long time since I upgraded so this time I bought pretty much high end of everything (6700K, GTX 980, 16 GB RAM @ 3000 MHz, M.2 SSD along with a 32" 2556x1440 monitor).

/KC


Your computer is great, but Microsoft will discontinue support for your OS in July 2017, because you have Skylake and Windows 7.

But you can certainly keep using it, just will get the rare update for a critical issues only.

Also, you do not have access to all the new features of Skylake while you use Windows 7.
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 02/02/16 07:48 PM

http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/2/10893620/microsoft-windows-10-upgrade-recommended-update

I have Windows Update turned off completely in services.msc.

You are not forcing that trash onto my computer, Microsucks!
Posted By: Airdrop01

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 02/02/16 08:01 PM

The answer to why should I upgrade something that works being "MS will discontinue support" is not really responsive to the question.

I've got a 2011 Acura MDX. It's out of warranty. However, it's got 180,000 miles and runs exactly as it should. Why would I ditch that car to get a hypothetical Acura PDQ which looks completely different, works differently and if I'm lucky would work 75% as well as what I have (remember, what I have is quite literally 100% satisfactory).

The fact that they are having to force it on people, because they can't even give it away (truly) should tell you all you need to know about Windows 10.
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 02/02/16 08:06 PM

You are like my friend who has a 1992 Lexus LS 400 with 249,000 miles on it and asides from the battery and tires and a few belt and spark plugs and one complete brake job during past 23 1/2 years, the rest of the car is still original parts and still working including the A/C and 6 Disc CD changer and AM/FM Cassette Stereo.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 02/02/16 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Airdrop01
The answer to why should I upgrade something that works being "MS will discontinue support" is not really responsive to the question.

I've got a 2011 Acura MDX. It's out of warranty. However, it's got 180,000 miles and runs exactly as it should. Why would I ditch that car to get a hypothetical Acura PDQ which looks completely different, works differently and if I'm lucky would work 75% as well as what I have (remember, what I have is quite literally 100% satisfactory).



There is zero chance that someone will hack into your MDX and steal your identity, banking information, or use it to commit a crime...unless it gets stolen and used as a getaway car or something, of course.

Your PC can do all of those things without you even knowing it if the security is compromised, and once MS stops updating it those odds go up as new vulnerabilities are discovered, disclosed, and disseminated around the criminal cybergangs.

Again, if your PC is like Mark's and you keep it offline you have nothing to worry about. Online is totally different. I think I heard the average time for an unprotected XP PC to get infected after going online is under 30 minutes, no need to surf "dangerous" sites or open infected emails or anything, just sitting there.
Firewalls and AV software help that, of course, but can you imagine a bank with a broken vault lock that would just hire extra guards instead of replacing the broken lock?

So to upgrade today? No, there's no need to. However, it will eventually stop receiving updates before all the security holes are fixed and then it becomes a time bomb. That time is dependent on when MS stops patching it. Just like Acura will stop fixing your car once it's out of warranty.




The Jedi Master
Posted By: No105_Archie

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 02/03/16 01:33 PM

Be careful or you may get Win10 whether you want it or not soon

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/windows-10-upgrade-1.3430469
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 02/03/16 01:36 PM

That's why I have automatic updates disabled on my PC. I only download updates when I manually run Windows Update.
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 02/03/16 02:21 PM

Microsucks is not telling you this, but their secret code name for Windows 10 is Genisys.
Posted By: PV1

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 02/04/16 10:02 AM

Seems like windows update has stopped notifying me of
available updates, since sometime in December. I expect
this must be to encourage me to turn on automatic updates.
It also offered me the Win10 install offer update again,
this time with a publish date of Dec. 15th. This was probably
the day it stopped giving me notifications.
Posted By: Mark Aisthorpe

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 02/04/16 07:22 PM

So far my Win7 games rig is free of any attempted Win10 hijacking and will stay that way.
I still do updates manually but scrutinise them before installing and mark any I don't like the look of to hide.

For reference I have the following updates hidden that all seem to relate to Win10
KB3021917, KB3035583, KB3075249, KB3080149, KB3112343, KB3123862 and KB2952664.
The last one they tried to sneak in twice, once as optional and once as recommended.

I do also have a Win10 machine, The one I'm posting on now. It was built from previous gaming rig left overs on a new HDD with a bought and paid for copy of Win10.
So far I've had about half a dozen BSOD's when watching YouTube or Twitch on it frown
Posted By: citizen guod

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/07/16 06:22 PM

https://youtu.be/u1kGMCfb2xw

Worth the time to watch. Best single content overview I've found so far.

If you disagree cool, but if you don't know, you need to. Then you can decide with full knowledge and awareness.
Posted By: wheelsup_cavu

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/10/16 06:22 AM

Originally Posted By: citizen guod
https://youtu.be/u1kGMCfb2xw

Worth the time to watch. Best single content overview I've found so far.

If you disagree cool, but if you don't know, you need to. Then you can decide with full knowledge and awareness.

Great find. smile


Wheels
Posted By: PV1

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/18/16 04:50 AM

Something I've been meaning to mention, and I keep
forgetting; this thread seems the appropriate place:
for those who are running Win7, and have updates set
be be screened before installation, since Dec 15th,
Windows Update has stopped announcing the presence of
new available updates - you now have to check for them
manually by running up Win Update. I thought perhaps
this was something unique to my system, but checked
with a friend, who looked on his machine and found
80 updates waiting to be installed. I expect this is
a move to make it more inconvenient to not migrate to
Win10, but it may just be neglect and incompetence.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/18/16 08:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Your computer is great, but Microsoft will discontinue support for your OS in July 2017, because you have Skylake and Windows 7.

But you can certainly keep using it, just will get the rare update for a critical issues only.

Also, you do not have access to all the new features of Skylake while you use Windows 7.


Exactly what cricital issues on the Skylake are you implying to? Many of you keep pulling the "security updates" card but unless you are totally computer illirate they are not as critical as M$ wan't you to belive.

Sure the are threaths and some updates are important but you can minimize many of them with some common sense. I'm sure you disagree but my own experiments shows otherwise.

As an experiment I've been running Windows XP SP3 (WU disabled) + a few manual updates on one machine used pretty much daily since 2009 without any protection at all except a HW firewall - during this 7 years I've been bitten once (1) by malware. Thats after I DL a dubios file from shady site so I was fully aware of the risk.

Problem was quickly fixed by backing up new files and then restoring a 2 week old fresh image.

I'm not recommend anyone to disable their AV/etc just letting you know result of my ongoing experiment to back up my statement above. For this to work regular image backups and paying attention to what you click on/install are critical.

/KC

Posted By: JimK

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/18/16 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: PV1
Something I've been meaning to mention, and I keep
forgetting; this thread seems the appropriate place:
for those who are running Win7, and have updates set
be be screened before installation, since Dec 15th,
Windows Update has stopped announcing the presence of
new available updates - you now have to check for them
manually by running up Win Update. I thought perhaps
this was something unique to my system, but checked
with a friend, who looked on his machine and found
80 updates waiting to be installed. I expect this is
a move to make it more inconvenient to not migrate to
Win10, but it may just be neglect and incompetence.



Yep, just found I had 58 updates awaiting. Not so sure I should let them update and
put more Windows 10 garbage on it. Thought I got rid of any 10 update and upon opening
the update window There was 10 update once again.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/19/16 01:05 PM

Looks like MS changed their minds...

Quote:

...
critical patches will be addressed for Skylake systems until the end of mainstream support for the operating system, which is January 2020 for Windows 7, and January 2023 for Windows 8.1.
...
Future hardware may run just fine on Windows 7 if you can put up with issues like Ian had installing Windows 7 on a new Skylake system when he was forced to use an optical disk.
...


The last part is of course dependent on HW manufacturers releasing drivers working with 7/8.x


Source: http://www.anandtech.com/show/10167/microsoft-extends-skylake-support-on-windows-7-and-windows-81

/KC

Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/19/16 09:51 PM

Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/19/16 10:59 PM

I haven't updated my Windows 7 computer in almost a year now.

F Windows!
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/19/16 11:24 PM

Somehow, even after I adjusted the registry to reject any upgrades, they slipped an update that prevented my flight sims from working. The only purpose for my gaming box. It took me weeks to fix it.

Delete the offending updates, all the recent ones.
Still no joy.

Checked the adjustment to the registry not to accept updates.
Reinstalled all my games.
Renamed them.
Scan Disc.
Check for errors.
Restart a few times.
Just about 20 hours work, trial and error.....
And bingo, I've got my games and flight sim back.
I think it was deleting the update, scan disc, reinstalling and renaming my games.
But I can't be sure.

Win10 never got through, thankfully.
I think it was my registry hack.
I thank a member here for that info smile

I can't express my feelings for Microsoft.
I can't imagine what they are thinking, and 'why' they would do that to their customers.
I'll never trust anything with the name 'Microsoft' on it again. Nothing.

I unplugged my internet Ethernet cord from my gaming box.

I have no idea how they slipped the update past me that disabled my flight sims.
I checked each one, and have a list of the dangerous ones with bad updates for old games.
They must have renamed one of them, or put it on a new security update.

I won't make that mistake again.
If I need a MOD or new addon, I'll D/L it with my notebook and write it to disc, then install it on my gaming box. It will never again see the internet. No need to.
I'll never buy, or build, another computer.

ASUS SABERTOOTH Z77; LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
CASE; Cooler Master HAF 932 RC-932-KKN5-GP R
PSU; CORSAIR HX750 750W RT
Intel CPU i5-3570K Ivy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) 77W Quad-Core HD Graphics 3D
MEM; CORSAIR Vengeance 16GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
VIDEO; EVGA GeForce GTX 770 4GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP SLI Support 3D
HDD; 2 - Seagate Barracuda's 2TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s
LITE-ON Black 12X BD-R 2X BD-RE 16X DVD+R 12X
DVD-RAM 8X BD-ROM SATA 12X Blu-ray Burner with Blu Ray 3D Feature
ASUS 24X DVD Burner - Black SATA Model
COOLING; Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO
MNTR; SMSNG LED 23.6" 2MS HDMI
Win7 Professional SP1 64-bit
MSSWFF2 stick
Pro Throttle
Pro Pedals

Great business move Microsoft.... rolleyes



Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/19/16 11:31 PM

That's why I haven't done a Windows Update in almost a year.

You can't tell what they are.

They all have file names with a bunch of numbers in them and according to Microsoft, every one of them is either Critical or Recommended AS IF your PC or laptop is going to SELF-DESTRUCT if you don't get that update or it's going to be vulnerable to everything.

I am sure in the past nearly year I have missed out on a lot of Critical updates and Security patches but I haven't gotten a single spyware or adware or virus.

I run MalwareBytes and SpyBot and BitDefender every week.

SpyBot and BitDefender even checks for registry vulnerabilities and open ports and other non virus things.

NOT a darn thing and everyone knows I spend a lot of time on the net so my PC should be more vulnerable to attacks than the next person's but in almost 26 years of being on the net, I have never picked up anything on any of the PC and laptops I've owned.

Even back in those days when people were getting viruses from FWD FWD everything or from the nude Anna Kournikova chain mail, I still never picked up anything.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/19/16 11:42 PM

I have a virus protection program I pay 40 bucks a year for, and install it on both my computers.
I update it, and scan every day.
I've never had a virus either.

Unless you consider Microsoft a virus, and now.....I do.

What is the definition of a virus?
I think Microsoft fits right into that category now.

My gaming box is now clean.
No unwanted programs any longer.

My laptop is infected with Microsoft updates, but it will never accept Win10.
My registry is altered. Sorry MS.
I'll get a smart phone, before I buy anything with the name Microsoft again.
When Win7Pro dies, I'm done with PC's.

Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/19/16 11:49 PM

Thanks for that cartoon Bib4Tuna.......I loved it.
Copied it and passed it on. biggrin

And it's almost true to life.

Can't figure out why Microsoft doesn't see itself, for what it is......."Money" I guess.
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 12:05 AM

I remember when AOL was a virus.

I never installed it on my PC but it seems everyone I knew had AOL because they just love to hear that You Got Mail.

Then after you cancel their internet service and uninstall their program, it kept reappearing on it's own with amount of files getting larger and larger and more processes running in the background hogging up RAM and Processor Speed with each time you remove it.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 12:20 AM

I tried to tell people I knew that AOL was NOT a good ISP.
But nobody believed me.

Live and learn.
Some still have it.
They've never known anything but AOL.
Crippled. wink
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 01:18 AM

I know one person still using AOL email.

I also know another person who is still paying for Hotmail Email when it's now free.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 04:05 AM

Call me a traitor but I just upgraded both my Win7/64 PC’s to 10. No big deal and no more nagging.

After all these years in bed with Microsoft OS’s I kinda think of them as my wife. biggrin

Just double check your privacy settings during and after installation.

Then again, I don't play old games so your mileage may vary.
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 04:16 AM

I have also learned to like Windows 10 a lot. It took a some time to get used to, but it is as second nature to me now as Windows 7 was before.

However, that does not mean that I agree altogether with their aggressive push of the OS, and I side with those wanting to keep their current OS if they like. I understand why Microsoft does it this way, but I still think that if they had more innovation bundled with the software, people would had naturally gone with the update. But they had a very solid OS with 7, and a too recent release of 8.1 to really excite anyone into changing at this time.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 04:25 AM

I totally agree. Superficially, the difference between Windows 10 and Windows 7 is negligible. I would even go so far as to call the upgrade unnecessary but then again I have no idea what's happening beneath the surface.

I only upgraded because I found out Windows 7/64 Home Premium Edition only supports up to 16GB of RAM whereas Windows 10/64 Home supports up to 128GB.
Posted By: Brit44 'Aldo'

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 06:21 AM

I'm still happy with my win98 rig. The only reason I have an XP rig is to play at keeping an old game running for other people. I would say to each there own, but it is obvious that YOU MUST CONFORM! The day after my parents pass I will put a bullet in my head. The current state of humanity makes me puke.
Posted By: Zamzow

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 06:31 AM

I'm still wondering if I'd run into problems installing and activating FSX via original 2006 DVD on Win10.

64 bit Win8.1 already bricked a ton of my older games, but thankfully FSX did work - and quite well.

FSX is the ONLY "game" that old that I still care about running...
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 08:31 AM

Originally Posted By: CG2015
That's why I haven't done a Windows Update in almost a year.

You can't tell what they are.

They all have file names with a bunch of numbers in them

While I agree that the UI design by MS sucks how they made it, and maybe even deliberately so, you actually CAN find out what each of these is for. Click on the entry, and on the right hand side it will provide a link to the corresponding knowledge base entry. Usually the title is descriptive enough to understand what each entry is about, so you can unselect it from the list of updates if you don't like it, and right-click it to select that it shouldn't be shown again.
Of course, the longer you wait the longer this list grows, so it's a considerable amount of work. But IF your PC is connected to the internet, it probably is a good idea to apply the vast majority of these updates. Your PC might not self-destruct, but it becomes more vulnerable to attacks, not all of which a virus scanner can detect. The virus scanner is an application. If something happens that even the operating system can't properly recognize, the virus scanner is equally blind.

Virus scanners should neither be the first line of defense, nor the only one.
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 09:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Ssnake
Click on the entry, and on the right hand side it will provide a link to the corresponding knowledge base entry. Usually the title is descriptive enough to understand what each entry is about


Like I am going to take what is written there just because Microsoft wrote it.

Those other updates that were pushing Windows 10, they didn't say that by installing this, you will be nagged over and over about upgrading to Windows 10, did they?

Instead they said critical update, install this or your PC will be vulnerable.
Posted By: Chucky

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 10:44 AM

Security patch KB3139929 (Win7/8.1) was released recently but it contains a small surprise,namely KB3146449 which basically gives you ads in IE for Win 10.

Apologies if this has already been brought up,this thread is getting quite long now.
Posted By: CG2015

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Chucky
Security patch KB3139929 (Win7/8.1) was released recently but it contains a small surprise,namely KB3146449 which basically gives you ads in IE for Win 10.



See? That backs up exactly what I said above.

Microsoft can be hiding these aggressive W10 push to upgrade programs into updates and patches and we have no way of knowing which one is it and once it's installed, not all 3rd party programs are able to find them and remove them.
Posted By: F4UDash4

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/20/16 06:13 PM

Are ads for W10 in IE so oppressive?

Just use Chrome.
Posted By: citizen guod

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/21/16 04:07 AM

I debated whether to tell this since it could be purely tinfoil hat material but its a good story if nothing else.

Had an old laptop that I decided to switch back to Win7 from Linux. I know -- why would I want to do that...? smile Used my favorite disk killer which deleted the partitions and made it all happy. Installed Win7 just as I've done on many, many other machines here, for friends, and at work. I told it to install Important updates only. It loaded a few then stopped loading them. The next time I went to Windows Update it just sits and spins and spins looking for updates but never completes. I started the Google search and found multiple occurrences of people having this problem. I tried every one of the fixes but to no avail. Since I can kill the disk and load Win7 in an hour or so, I repeated the format and clean loaded again, and watched each step to see if anything was different. Same thing again. Now I'm playing detective. Killed the disk and loaded Win7 but this time I checked the box for it to load recommended updates along with the important updates. Well what do you know, no problem! Installed all the important updates, then did several of the recommended updates (as I watched which ones it was scheduled to load) and then I deselected the recommended check box, cleared the cache, temp, and other trash files, then cold booted it. Once back up I checked to make sure the Internet connection was still working without a problem, then tried Windows Update again. Back to spin spin spin and never complete the checking for important updates after letting it run for hours. I guess Microsoft has figured out some of us nefarious creatures have figured out if you don't select recommended updates you don't get Windows GWX crap.
Posted By: citizen guod

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/21/16 04:16 AM

Originally Posted By: F4UDash4
Are ads for W10 in IE so oppressive?

Just use Chrome.


Ehhh, aren't there "adlets" positioned in the Win10 interface and menu structure, not just exclusively in the browser window?
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/21/16 10:02 AM

I pull both important and recommended updates, but I maintain a "sh!t list" of KB entries that are verboten, mainly GWX and Telemetry related issues. So far this is only a handful and not too difficult to memorize. If they show up, I mark them as "don't install, don't list them again" and for the most part things stay that way. Yes, I had to abandon the concept of simply trusting MS, so now I have to check the full list of knowledge base entries to see what's in each update, which sucks. But the suck started with the concept of operating system updates which was inevitable if you connect to the internet, so you could just as well say that the internet is at fault. And, to be fair, if your computer isn't connected to the outside world you don't need updates.

Still, even though I definitely am slightly paranoid, I still cannot recommend skipping all the updates just because MS might slip something nefarious onto your computer. The stuff that hackers push on your machine, if they find an exploitable security hole, is definitely worse. And all that's needed is visiting an inconspicuous website that has syndicated web banners that may use Flash or JavaScript.

If you are a Facebook user,
if you don't clean out your cookie collection and browser cache several times a day,
if you use Flash without modifying its internal settings for user tracking,
if you have a smartphone and use it for your everyday activities,
if you don't use encryption in your emails and chat messages
if you don't compartmentalize your online activities in several, unconnected virtual machines,

- then all your privacy concerns about MS are purely emotional BS because you already reveal everything to large, looming megacorporations. MS is no less or more trustworthy than Amazon (which knows everything about your media consumption), Google (which knows everything about your surfing habits, search phrases, possibly your daily commute and other movement profiles), or Facebook (which knows everything about your loss of control under the influence of alcohol, and the embarrassing habits and dubious political associations of your friends).

Maintaining your privacy is hard work these days and requires constant vigilance and a certain loss of comfort. It's still possible, but concerns about Windows updates - if seen in isolation, and withion the context of your privacy - are fundamentally irrational. There's certainly something to be said about MS's marketing activities to push Windows 10 into the market, I'm NOT defending that. But there are ways to deal with it that still maintain IT security on internet connected machines. Refusing all updates "just because" is not the way to go.
Posted By: PV1

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/21/16 11:03 AM

You missed

If you have an android smartphone and load free apps without ever
reading through the permissions granted to the apps on the
googleplay page (there may be an equivalent for apple but I
have no experience with those.)
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/28/16 08:06 PM

Just putting this here because it seems to be a safe and simple way for people to turn off the Windows 10 nags (a link is in the article, but I wanted to link to the article so people got more info from a reputable source first):

http://www.zdnet.com/article/never10-a-new-tool-for-turning-off-microsofts-windows-10-update/
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/28/16 09:20 PM

Thanks Art...that was a simple fix.
I've been wrestling with MS for a month.
Had to reinstall and rename all my flight sims...'CUP' was quite a lot to reinstall.
Lucky I had a backup on my 'B' Drive.

Then it started to download security updates that were giving me problems.
Hiding the SEC ROM disabling thing in the 'critical updates'.
I must have spent 20 hours trying to find a way around them disabling my flight sims.


Anyway....thanks for the link smile

Gibson is pretty reliable, IMHO.
Posted By: JimK

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/28/16 10:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
Just putting this here because it seems to be a safe and simple way for people to turn off the Windows 10 nags (a link is in the article, but I wanted to link to the article so people got more info from a reputable source first):

http://www.zdnet.com/article/never10-a-new-tool-for-turning-off-microsofts-windows-10-update/


Thanks Ken, going to use this on my office notebook, Tired of the Win10 popups.
Posted By: PFunk

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 12:46 AM

I have a Windows 98 legacy machine if I ever want to fire up any of those titles.

Which I generally don't have time for.
Posted By: Airdrop01

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 01:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
Just putting this here because it seems to be a safe and simple way for people to turn off the Windows 10 nags (a link is in the article, but I wanted to link to the article so people got more info from a reputable source first):

http://www.zdnet.com/article/never10-a-new-tool-for-turning-off-microsofts-windows-10-update/


This is gold. Should be sticky!!!!

Thanks!!! clapping
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 01:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Airdrop01
Originally Posted By: Arthonon
Just putting this here because it seems to be a safe and simple way for people to turn off the Windows 10 nags (a link is in the article, but I wanted to link to the article so people got more info from a reputable source first):

http://www.zdnet.com/article/never10-a-new-tool-for-turning-off-microsofts-windows-10-update/


This is gold. Should be sticky!!!!

Thanks!!! clapping


Originally Posted By: Mary Jo Foley
There's a new free utility available for 'normals' who don't want their Windows 7 and 8.1 PCs and tablets to automatically update to Windows 10.


So I'm abnormal because I like Windows 10 now? biggrin LOL!

I’m pushing 50 and I can’t even remember the last time I bought a sim or game with SecuRom or SafeDisc!

You Windows 10 haters are living in the past.
Posted By: PV1

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 10:32 AM

Win10 crashes my preferred flight sim.
As did win8 but in a different way.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 10:53 AM

No Win 10 for me for at least another 1-2 years. I'm in no rush.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 01:07 PM

Linebacker - You are not "Abnormal" in my opinion.
But you just aren't looking at the other side of the coin. Or you are not aware.

There are a lot of really talented coders who have spent thousands of hours on MODs and improvements to the old SIMs, like IL2/FB/PF - making them better in some peoples opinions, than any new flight sims on the market, some believe that, and still play the older games.
Tens of thousands, maybe more, people play these older, highly modded, flight sims.
Try reading the rest of the site, it's mostly "Flight Sims".
There are many more sites, which are dedicated solely to these modded flight sims.
They are VERY popular.

So cutting out that part of a computers use, computers that many have built themselves, and paid a lot of money for, and making the work they've done useless, work that many thousands of guys have done for free just to help the flight sim community, is a very bad move for Microsoft. Cruel, one might say. And unnecessary.

Just done for the "Cloud", so they can sell info to advertisers.
Skimming info from Win10, which they cannot get from Win7Pro.

Greed.

That's just my POV though.
Others may disagree.
I'm sure.

That link should be a 'sticky'.




Posted By: adlabs6

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 03:23 PM

Yea, thanks for that link.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 04:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
So I'm abnormal because I like Windows 10 now? biggrin LOL!

I'm pushing 50 and I can't even remember the last time I bought a sim or game with SecuRom or SafeDisc!

You Windows 10 haters are living in the past.


Each to his own but please tell me why to upgrade when in my case Windows 7 provides me with everything I need, everything setup and configured to my likings and works 100% stable and without any issues at all for the things I do?

On top of that there are several things I dislike with MS new direction so for me it's a "Loose - Loose" situation and to upgrade just for the cause of it just makes more work for me without any benefits - on the contrary.

Someday I'm sure I have to update or switch OS but until then I'm more than happy with what I have.

/KC
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 04:57 PM

+1 KeyCat
Posted By: SkateZilla

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 05:07 PM

I dual boot,

Windows 7 with all my expensive suite software (3DS, Vegas, Adobe CS5 and CS6, etc etc).

Windows 10, I mainly use for DX12 Benchmarking and Xbox Stuff, outside of that, unless I need one of the above suites, I have no issues with Windows 10 and can do everything in it (Surfing Web, Movies, TV, etc etc).

I have it for when any new games I buy need DX12, but Im not going to spend the time to transfer some of the Licenses to a New Windows PID (mainly because I have so Many).

Some of my Extra Hardware I use w/ Video Editing/Capture also does not have Windows 10 Drivers Yet, (if ever).

My Windows 10 Insider Install sits happily on a 250GB Drive in a eSATA Dock, when I need it, I just reboot and choose that drive.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 05:57 PM

"Extremist"...... wink

Oh yeah, easy for you.....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 06:53 PM

I cracked.

Decided to create a template for windows and others.

Run them through a Virtual Machine.

Whatever messed up thing they have it's contained. Whether it be the security flaws of the older systems or the privacy problem with windows 10.

Keeping my valuable data elsewhere.
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 07:06 PM

In the latest Steam Hardware Survey (from almost 120M users), there are as many users on Windows 10 as in Windows 7. Windows 8 is going away quickly, and it never paired with Windows 7 in the Survey.

Of course part of the growth has to do with it being given way for free, but gamers would not had supported if it was a "bad" OS.

I play also old and modded games. I may have to do something extra that I was not doing in 7 (in a few of them), but at the end, everything that I had running in 7 is running in Windows 10, including IL2.

After all these months, still not a single crash for me.

But one thing I will say. It is good enough for me that you say you don't want it to not have to upgrade to it. No need for anything else to be said.

As long as MS supports it, there is plenty room for whatever many OS versions are good for each user.

F*** MS with their pushy tactics.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna

...
Of course part of the growth has to do with it being given way for free force feed to clueless users, but gamers would not had supported if it was a "bad" OS
...


Fixed that part for you Bib4Tuna wink

/KC
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 03/29/16 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By: KeyCat
Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna

...
Of course part of the growth has to do with it being given way for free force feed to clueless users, but gamers would not had supported if it was a "bad" OS
...


Fixed that part for you Bib4Tuna wink

/KC


That indeed may make a bit of the growth, but in reality not as widespread as you seem to think it was. I usually have gamers on a higher esteem when it comes to decide what goes in their machines. Take in account that Steam only surveys their active accounts.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/07/16 11:49 PM

Alright, I'm now officially a Windows 7 user again. Two installations actually, one in a HD partition, the other is running as an AppVM inside Linux.

I just want to make an early observation. First, ironically I had trouble getting updates (which everyone was keen to disable) LOL. After fixing that I just stuck with the important ones and ignored the optional updates.

Up to now, I haven't got a single windows 10 notification. Could it be that those pesky updates have all been placed in the optional category?

I haven't installed any games with securom or any disk protection and will update this post if it goes well.

UPDATE: The Safedisc/Securom patch got through which means it's listed on the important updates. I enabled it via registry but please note that both my Win 7 connections to the internet are heavily filtered so I'm not worried (much) about security. I would not recommend this for someone who uses Win 7 as their primary OS doing web surfing etc.

Win7 right now is just an isolated platform for me to play old games.

Up to now, with no registry changes etc. I still don't have the pesky Win 10 update.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/08/16 09:17 PM

That link, "Never 10" .exe - worked well for both my lap top and PC gaming machine Oselisan.

But I see you've 'really' gotten into it, Linux, a HD partition and all!
Good for you.
It's a little more time than I wish to invest, but a great idea.

Still, I'd keep a copy of that Never10.exe around, it might come in handy.
One click and it fixed all my problems, on both machines.
And it tells you if they've slipped something past you, or if your safe.
A very small program.
"Gibson" is pretty trustworthy IMHO.

Good to hear you beat Microsoft.

But I'm sure the battle is not over...... wink
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/09/16 11:39 AM

Thanks Murphy, I'll keep that Never10.exe in mind should I need it.

And yes you are right, it's not over because it's a never-ending escalation. It's a term I liked when it was used in Batman Begins with Gordon describing how things "escalate" as the criminals adapt to what the police/law-enforcement has.

p.s. I think that's a bad analogy unless the reader takes Microsoft to be the criminals lol.
Posted By: Brun

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/09/16 03:07 PM

Posted By: Mark Aisthorpe

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/09/16 07:43 PM

If your sticking with Win7 or 8 you should also check out "Spybot Anti-Beacon" to take care of the Win10 style spyware thats also being snuck into 7 & 8 through the updates.

https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/09/16 11:28 PM

Thanks Mark.
Don't know if I would need that, having an anti-virus/Firewall and checking my traffic often.
But good to have, if I need it.
Kaspersky says it's a good program, has a good reputation, FYI.
Posted By: KRT_Bong

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/10/16 02:33 PM

A friend of mine has windows 8 on a sound system for playing and recording music with a professional sound board just recently it has decided to turn a folder on the desktop containing sound files into a shortcut to media player or xbox player (they seem to be interchangeable) you can't open it to view the files and you can't just go to folder like in 7 without it trying to play the files like a playlist, I absolutely despise this in a computer to not be able or easily go into the drive to access folders or that the start button opens a tile based desktop that takes up the entire screen. and without even opening a browser it constantly prompts you to upgrade first to 8.1 and then to 10. To me it's like the whole PC has turned into a pay to play system like the annoying games on Facebook. We should be able to use an OS that works for us not the other way around. If I want to play a CD of self recorded Live music Windows shouldn't be telling me I don't have permission to play it (true). Pretty soon you'll have to have a card reader on the PC for your credit card (I'll bet they've even considered that one) and the PC will be locked like a pay phone.
Posted By: Airdrop01

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/14/16 01:36 PM

Arthonon or anyone else in the know:

Does this update undo the Never10 fix or am I good to install it?

Thanks!

Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/14/16 04:33 PM

I can't say for certain, but I would think that at worst, you'd just have to run the Never 10 exe again.
Posted By: PV1

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/15/16 09:18 AM

I run all security updates, malware updates, and defender
definition updates, and I seem to get away with it. I
vet all the non-security updates individually, and let them
through if they're benign, like a change for different
Daylight Saving dates, or the like.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/15/16 03:12 PM

Originally Posted By: KRT_Bong
Pretty soon you'll have to have a card reader on the PC for your credit card (I'll bet they've even considered that one) and the PC will be locked like a pay phone.


I liked that one and I also belive that they are aiming for some kind of yearly subscription model in the future.

LOL at Brun's pictures smile

/KC

Posted By: citizen guod

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/22/16 06:09 AM

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news...bad-for-you-son
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 04/22/16 06:45 AM

I just checked on Amazon. A Windows 10 OEM license key is a mere 35 euros. So Microsoft's offer is running out in 99 days and after that I'd have to pay $40.- ?

Scaaaary!
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/23/16 11:36 PM

The hits just keep coming! Now they changed the "X" in the corner to mean "yes...I want to install Windows 10"

They just can't accept that some folks don't want to be monitored 24/7.

Careful if you don't want W10.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/...oo#12e74ba278b0
Posted By: Airdrop01

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/24/16 12:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Force10
The hits just keep coming! Now they changed the "X" in the corner to mean "yes...I want to install Windows 10"

They just can't accept that some folks don't want to be monitored 24/7.

Careful if you don't want W10.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/...oo#12e74ba278b0


That is outrageous.

Utterly indefensible.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/24/16 04:06 PM

Incredible lame! They are breaking their own Windows GUI guide lines/rules themself screwy

They are sure doing whatever they can to push it out to clueless users so they can reach that 1 Billion device goal. Then they can brag with that in press and interviews and say "1 Billion users can't be wrong".

http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/29/microsoft-expects-1-billion-windows-10-devices-in-2-3-years/

The 1 Billion includes PC's, Tablets, Phones, XBoxes but thats not usually mentioned.

PS: Really hope this new force feed tactics will backfire like hell!

/KC
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/24/16 04:16 PM

Seriously, if all the games I played ran on Linux I would have dumped Windows a while ago.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/26/16 03:47 PM

Microsoft doesn't want to support anything but Windows 10. It's a drain to make updates for multiple OS's at the same time. They have to release a new OS every few years because their stockholders demand it. Then their customers don't want to all move with it, and they're stuck patching vulnerabilities in an OS released 10 years ago.

IMO the answer is clear, MS should just stop supporting any OS that isn't Windows 10. It's what they really want. Security flaw found in Win7 or 8? Then update to Windows 10. Or don't and stay vulnerable. That's all. Simple.




The Jedi Master
Posted By: rezerekted

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/26/16 04:39 PM

Too late, paid for Win8.1 and Microsoft said it is supported until 2023 so they can't backtrack now because that would be illegal. I'm going to run it until then too.
Posted By: Force10

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/26/16 05:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
stuff


I will never switch to their intrusive BS operating system.

If you don't do any banking or other sensitive stuff on your gaming computer...there's no reason to switch...just as simple.
Posted By: Murphy

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/26/16 05:22 PM

If they stop updating Win7, I'll just game offline with my gaming box, and install Linux on my lap top.

I won't patronize a company that screws it's customers after taking their money.
Put them out of business. They've go nothing I need, and no reason for customer 'loyalty', when they screw the people who built them up.

Capitalism, it works, if the people are still 'informed', and intelligent enough.
We're not Communists....yet.

"Linux"! Made for free men.
Posted By: Arthonon

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/26/16 06:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Murphy
"Linux"! Made for free men.




biggrin
Posted By: No105_Archie

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/27/16 05:35 PM

just upgraded to Win 10..it was painless and took about 2 hrs...everything works just fine afterwards
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/27/16 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: No105_Archie
just upgraded to Win 10..it was painless and took about 2 hrs...everything works just fine afterwards
Have you tried any games on it yet?
Posted By: Bib4Tuna

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/27/16 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted By: No105_Archie
just upgraded to Win 10..it was painless and took about 2 hrs...everything works just fine afterwards
Have you tried any games on it yet?



All games (300 on Steam, about 20+ non Steam) work for me. They are working either the same or better than Windows 7.

Call me lucky.

Call me skilled.

Or maybe that is the way it should work.

Reading through many game forums around the web, many issues are caused by MSI Afterburner and the AMD Gaming Evolved app in Windows 10, not the games themselves.

I never used either.
Posted By: Chucky

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/27/16 07:36 PM

Win 10 runs every game I've thrown at it.I don't play older games however.Wouldn't go back to 7.
Posted By: adlabs6

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/27/16 11:09 PM

I also upgraded from Win7 to Win10 this week. All my games work, performance has been fine.

And a side comment: IMO holding off/skipping this "free" upgrade isn't a problem, if somebody chooses. The "free" upgrade isn't like a boxed upgrade, such as my Win7 Upgrade retail product. It won't follow you through hardware builds like a retail box product will. Once your current "device" for Win10 is changed, your "free" Win10 upgrade is gone, and you're going to need to buy a box of Win10, anyway. So any loss may actually be rather small, in the longer term.
Posted By: Para_Bellum

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/27/16 11:19 PM

Upgraded to Win10 from Win7 today.

So far, so good. Everything works, no problems yet.
Posted By: No105_Archie

Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games - 05/28/16 12:00 PM

Quote:
Have you tried any games on it yet?


WoW and Eve Online work fine , plus I have a couple of fairly old ( circa 2003/4 ) utilities that work fine as well.
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