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Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines?

Posted By: M@verick

Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 08:19 AM

A burning question I've always pondered. The SCAR-H for instance only have 20 rounds, the H&K 417 as well. Why limit magazines to 20. 5.56mm weapons have 30.

To much stress on the spring in the magazine? To heavy in the vest pouches? What gives?
Posted By: DaBBQ

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 08:32 AM

The same reason why there's 8 buns for 10 hot dogs per packages. Depends on the manufacturer.
Posted By: Dachs

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 08:55 AM

Probably to keep the weight and size practical.
I can't imagine a 30 round HK G3 magazine being very handy, the 20 round ones sure were bulky enough as they were!
Posted By: M@verick

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 09:13 AM

Ah, make sense about the magazine sizes. Thanks.
Posted By: DaveP63

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 10:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Dachs
Probably to keep the weight and size practical.
I can't imagine a 30 round HK G3 magazine being very handy, the 20 round ones sure were bulky enough as they were!


This.
Posted By: EAF331 MadDog

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 01:55 PM

Also height. A 30 round magazine will be 50% taller, and as it is the 20-round G3 magazine is just right in size when prone.
Posted By: gallycadet

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 03:26 PM

But if you have an M1A, there are some 50 round drum magazines that will give you a great workout.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 03:54 PM

They make them for several guns. I have two for my HK91's. They are quite good. Not bulky and length is good. Heavy when loaded. But 50 is much better than 20 when firing full auto bursts. I'll post pictures next time I take them to the range. Expensive at $250 each.

http://www.xproducts.com
Posted By: gallycadet

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 03:55 PM

Oldgrognard... You are quickly becoming my idol, and the person I envy the most in this world. lol
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 03:58 PM

Thanks. I am trying to live a full life.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 03:59 PM

Surefire is another alternative if you are using 5.56 or 300 Blackout. I have a couple of the 60 round mags for my ARs. The larger 100 capacity are not practical. Better to go with the dual drum.

http://www.surefire.com/tactical-equipment/high-capacity-magazines.html
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 04:21 PM

This may help.

Here is an HK91 with 20 round magazine.








Here it is with a 30 round mag. If you can make it out, the weapon is now teetering on the base of the 30 round mag. The right front bipod is off the ground.





And here it is with 50 round drum. Resting correctly on bipod and buttstock.





And this shows that it isn't too bad on width or cumbersome other than a bit heavy because of the weight of 50 rounds of 7.62/308.


Posted By: gallycadet

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: oldgrognard
Surefire is another alternative if you are using 5.56 or 300 Blackout. I have a couple of the 60 round mags for my ARs. The larger 100 capacity are not practical. Better to go with the dual drum.

http://www.surefire.com/tactical-equipment/high-capacity-magazines.html


I'm probably going to pick one up soon. I have a 100 round drum for my AR, but you're right it's not the most practical, and its more maintenance intensive than the rifle! Heard a lot of good things about the surefire, and am kicking myself for not picking one up a while back for half price.
Posted By: CyBerkut

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 08:12 PM

I have a couple of 30 round mags for my HK-91. As mentioned earlier, they really are too long if you are shooting in the prone position. Plus being unusually long, there are not a lot of magazine pouches that they would fit into properly.

If somebody were to make a .308 HK-91 magazine similar to the Surefire Mag5-60



a more manageable 30, or 30+ round magazine could probably work... but they only make those for .223 as far as I know.

Edit: Ah, I see the surefires got mentioned on page two. I posted this before going to page two. D'oh!
Posted By: NH2112

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/09/14 10:26 PM

Didn't the 7.62x51 Galil use 25-round mags? I know the 5.56x45 mags held 35, with 50s available.
Posted By: Richie61

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/10/14 02:09 AM

I have 30 round mags for my M1A. exitstageleft
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/10/14 02:22 AM

Me too; they are big. not really practical.


Posted By: Rick.50cal

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/10/14 07:23 AM

Canada used to have the FN C1 rifle, basically an SLR / FAL. It was issued with the very practical 20rd size. But we also had an LMG Automatic Rifle version, select fire but meant for full auto bursts, called the C2, and that was issued with 30rd mags. That were huge, bulky. Unwieldy.

Being prone with such vertical mags... not good. Generally not practical, was disliked by the troops. See, you need not only for it to clear the ground, but also clear the grass and shrubbery, and still allow for mag changes easily.

In the history of the FAL and other battle rifles, the ONLY time and place 30rd 762Nato mags were moderately wanted by troops, is in the south of Africa, in Rhodesian war, and when those same vets fought in Namibia for the SADF later in the 80's. That's IT.

Keep in mind you can't carry many rounds before it gets stupid heavy.
Posted By: Blade_RJ

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/10/14 11:03 AM

I always believed becouse if would be too heavy and big when prone, also being bigger mass more damage, so if you single shot, you dont need as many ? i've seen the damage 7.62 does on someone pretty close and i'm not even in a war zone
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/10/14 02:23 PM

I've always liked the FN. I agree with Rick's comments.

L1A1 with 20 round mag.





With 30 round. I have a couple of the South African 30 rounders. They are hard to find and now are getting to be expensive. The FN doesn't look as wrong as the others with 30 round mags.



Posted By: EAF331 MadDog

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/10/14 03:25 PM

Now if I could only find 20 round magazines for my Ruger GSR frown 10 rounds are too small for IPSC shooting.
Posted By: Peally

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/10/14 05:07 PM

The extra reloads put hair on your chest
Posted By: Flogger23m

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/10/14 07:06 PM

Galils have 25 round 7.62x51 magazines. These don't look too bad:




25 round 7.62x51 PMAG also looks about the length of a 30 round 5.56 magazine:


25 rounds seems to be the longest you can get without it becoming too cumbersome.
Posted By: Peally

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/10/14 07:10 PM

I need an M1A like that, they're just too damn classy
Posted By: gallycadet

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/10/14 08:45 PM

Just started saving up for my M1A. Hoping to get it next summer.
Posted By: shan2

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 12:30 AM

Why the M1A? I had several M1As, but the SCAR is just as accurate, lighter, has drop-free mags, can support optics without a duct tape solution, and has an adjustable gas block. Oh, and the stock folds if you're into that kind of thing.
Posted By: NH2112

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 12:44 AM

For me, I just feel like I'm shooting a rifle when I shoot an M1A, M1 Garand, Lee-Enfield, Mauser, etc. Anything made mostly of plastic and aluminum feels like a toy to me. I'll be the first to admit that an out-of-the-box AR will usually outshoot an accurized M1A (or most OOB bolt guns, for that matter) but I just like that solid feel of wood and steel.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 12:46 AM

Because the SCAR has no soul. A lifeless unattractive thing that has a butt-ugly Space Boot buttstock and ... it's a side-folder.
Posted By: shan2

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:00 AM

You've never tried one. wink
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:17 AM

You're right shan. Never shot one. Wouldn't dirty my hands with one. winkngrin
Posted By: gallycadet

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:19 AM

I've held the SCAR, it's nice, and if I win the lottery I'd get one. But like Oldgrognard said, the M1A has a soul. There's something special about it.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:20 AM

Originally Posted By: oldgrognard
Because the SCAR has no soul. A lifeless unattractive thing that has a butt-ugly Space Boot buttstock and ... it's a side-folder.


that about sums it up....
Posted By: shan2

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:21 AM

Well, if it's dirtiness you're worried about, we can try shooting under a nice cleansing rain. You can bring your M1A and I'll bring my fantastic plastic SCAR. hahaha

edit:

I've no idea what you guys are talking about imparting a soul to an inanimate object. They're just tools. Some are prettier than others, but ultimately, it's the function that distinguishes tools, not their form.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:24 AM

Scar's, both of them, are solutions to a problem that was already solved 60 years ago.

Plastic and space age is cool...until it is not anymore. A least I have gone full circle. Now all about nice wood and classy.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:25 AM

That kind of dirtyness can't be washed off with rain. You need Holy Water, an old priest and a young priest, Sacred Ground, a choir of 50 virgins, a Bible blessed by the Pope, and candles ... lots and lots of candles.

It is no small matter.
Posted By: gallycadet

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:27 AM

I won't say never until I fire one, but I thought this review summed up my feelings pretty well.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/foghorn/gun-review-scar-17s-semi-auto-civilian-scar-h/
Posted By: gallycadet

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:29 AM

Think it also just depends on what feels right. I love my XD, and am in no hurry to get a 1911 (Someday...), but my dad hates it, and thinks polymer pistols are the work of the devil.
Posted By: shan2

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:48 AM

Originally Posted By: gallycadet
I won't say never until I fire one, but I thought this review summed up my feelings pretty well.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/foghorn/gun-review-scar-17s-semi-auto-civilian-scar-h/


I like the reciprocating charging handle and it's not heavy enough to throw off any balance. Personal taste, I guess. As for bulkiness, it's no worse than a H&K G3. I'm not sure what he means about the muzzle brake being necessary to tame the rifle, it's the first thing I removed. The SCAR is the softest shooting autoloading 7.62 rifle I've ever shot and I've pretty much tried them all.

The only thing I don't like about the SCAR is the stock. I'd prefer a more substantial fixed stock without the funny cheek riser. Everything else on my 17S has been modded or replaced. New charging handle, extended fore rail, new trigger, new grip, new flash hider, and sling did go a long way to making it ergonomic for me.
Posted By: Peally

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 03:22 AM

Bill is going to come in here and start breaking heads with all the SCAR hate biggrin
Posted By: Rick.50cal

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 06:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Blade_RJ
I always believed becouse if would be too heavy and big when prone, also being bigger mass more damage, so if you single shot, you dont need as many ? i've seen the damage 7.62 does on someone pretty close and i'm not even in a war zone



Well... Rhodesia was just about the only war where guys with battle rifles actually were effective on full auto (barely), but the average shootout distance there was about 25 feet. And contacts were short... probably 99% of them lasted less than 5 seconds. Getting prone just didn't happen much. That's very unlike most warzone contacts.

Much more normal is to put battle rifles on semi, use 20rd mags so its lighter, you can go prone, and the mag pouches don't bash you in the chin AND yer ballz. You'd carry perhaps 4 to 5 20rd mags...and it would weigh a lot. Ya can't carry as much 7.62N...its literally double the weight of 5.56mm.

But yea, its true 762 is devastating. I bet you would see some of that in Brazil. Imbel made decent FAL's... do they still make those?
Posted By: semmern

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 11:27 AM

Originally Posted By: oldgrognard
Because the SCAR has no soul. A lifeless unattractive thing that has a butt-ugly Space Boot buttstock and ... it's a side-folder.


This. It's why I go flying in a Tiger Moth, Cub or similar vintage plane rather than a modern 172. The old kites have soul and personality.
Posted By: shan2

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 11:41 AM

Bah. Soul and personality attributed to machinery only indicate vulnerabilities to random malfunctions that can't be controlled by the operator. Give me a boring tool instead of one with a "soul" any day of the week.
Posted By: Allaire

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 11:54 AM

Well at least if you have to use a M1A as a club you won't be very afraid of breaking it.
Posted By: semmern

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: shan2
Bah. Soul and personality attributed to machinery only indicate vulnerabilities to random malfunctions that can't be controlled by the operator. Give me a boring tool instead of one with a "soul" any day of the week.


Not true. If that was the case with an airplane I would never fly it.
Posted By: Peally

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 01:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Allaire
Well at least if you have to use a M1A as a club you won't be very afraid of breaking it.


Same reason 1911s still have an edge over polymer pistols wink
Posted By: NH2112

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 02:51 PM

Originally Posted By: semmern
Originally Posted By: oldgrognard
Because the SCAR has no soul. A lifeless unattractive thing that has a butt-ugly Space Boot buttstock and ... it's a side-folder.


This. It's why I go flying in a Tiger Moth, Cub or similar vintage plane rather than a modern 172. The old kites have soul and personality.


And it's why I'll take a muscle car from the late 60s or early 70s over a new "muscle car", even if the new ones make more horsepower. Hearing and feeling the lopey idle of that 4-500CID engine is so much different than the 4cyl econobox-smooth idle of a modern muscle car. It's not just about the raw numbers.
Posted By: Crane Hunter

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 05:19 PM

Non reciprocating charging handles are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, outside of the AR platform and applications where "working space" is at a premium, as with bullpups.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 06:15 PM

I don't get the reciprocating handle is bad. Most semi auto rifles have had them since forever. Of course many select fire ones too. Its simple. Its strong. If something weird happens you can take a rock and beat on it to get the bolt open. I had a mini 14 seize up on a case stuck in the chamber. Was some Chinese 5.56 from way back. Fixing it was easy. Take a shooting brick from the range and beat on the vary strong charging handle. Lots of guns this would not work on. You would have to get a cleaning rod and beat the thing out from the front....AR. This is a vary rare thing to happen. But it happened to me once.

Multi part bolt handles are just more things to brake or go wrong. And potentially a vary important piece of the gun to loose on field striping. Thinking Italian AR-70. Although that I am sure that did reciprocate. My little Berreta storm charging handle also pops out on field strip. I don't like that. Since the gun brakes down to 3 large pieces for basic field strip... and 1 little charging handle.

In a fighting gun.... simple well thought out is better. More complex, more parts... bad. No damned Jesus pins!
Posted By: Rick.50cal

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 06:16 PM


I liken it to cars. The latest modern assault carbines are equivalent to owning a Nissan GTR. A heavy wood and steel FAL or M-14 variant... is like owning a Jaguar E-type convertible. Both are highly desired sportscars. Both are fast for their eras. Both look good and handle well.

But... most people only desire one or the other...old school or new tech.

I'm one of the rarer types of guys, who wants both equally. The GTR and the E-type. The M-14 and the Israeli Tavor bullpup (and I do own both).

The biggest difference between the cars and the guns is, the cars get heavier as they get newer, while the rifles get lighter (welllll...usually!). That and the cars kill far more people than the assault and battle rifles do. Even during full on wars... just look at the numbers, they will shock you.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 06:19 PM

Well more people drive cars than serve in a military. Makes sense.
Posted By: Bill_Grant

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 06:35 PM

Far be it from me to say a gun is crappy because I don't like it, or it is an old design.
On the SCAR, the 'SpaceBoot' can be replaced with a machined adapter that allows you to put most any AR stock on it. Fixed OR Folding. So there. biggrin

Yes, the M1A is sexy. Just look at OG's rifle. It is drool-worthy.

But then again...

http://33.media.tumblr.com/7b3f3ff0d51f9bf9e6e3e0464f628d82/tumblr_n5ols5Lg0U1tw4pxzo1_1280.jpg


Note the Fixed Stock....

wave2
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 06:58 PM

Hey, that's the same scope that is on my M1A !
Posted By: Bill_Grant

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 06:59 PM

Heheh, but you didn't mention the Non-Space-Boot stock!
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 07:25 PM

Well, ... it's still a side-folder. winkngrin

When are you going to come back so we can go to the range again Bill ?
Posted By: shan2

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 10:55 PM

Actually, the SSR stock doesn't fold. I have one on order.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 11:04 PM

Sure looks like a silver pin through a hinge.
Posted By: shan2

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 11:12 PM

Nope. The hinges on the SCAR stocks are plastic. That is just the mounting rail on the receiver.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 11:21 PM

The mounting rail for what ? Are we both talking about that vertical pin where the butt meets the receiver ?
Posted By: Crane Hunter

Re: Gun people, why only 20 rounds of 7.62 in magazines? - 11/11/14 11:23 PM

What's wrong with side folders? Some are not well implemented, but the basic idea is sound.
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