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Swedish armed forces in subhunt

Posted By: Charlie_SB

Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 02:37 PM

I just thought there might be some people here interested in this:

http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/english-version-could-be-a-damaged-russian-submarine_4023511.svd

Tom Clancy stuff for real...

-C-
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 03:26 PM

Yea with eastern "visitors" we have a ball playing hide and seek in the archipelago smile

Right now the hunt is on for one (or more) "black dressed man" seen on the shoreline as well as the marine looking for a damaged sub of some sort. It's flashback strait to the cold war and the 80's!

/KC

Posted By: Charlie_SB

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 03:39 PM

Survey ship Professor Logachev and her Dutch Navy followers are quite interesting as well.

http://www.marinetraffic.com

-C-
Posted By: semmern

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 03:47 PM

Better get on the horn to Comrade Gerasimov, or call in Clark and Chavez wink
Posted By: Chucky

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 03:53 PM

Theoretically,what would happen if you 'caught' one?
Posted By: Fille_SWE

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 04:02 PM

I hope this will result in bigger funds for the armed forces.
Posted By: semmern

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 04:10 PM

Should be a good chance for the Visby-class corvettes and the Gotland-class subs to get to flex their sensory muscle a bit. Hope they find the sub, if it is there to be found.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Chucky
Theoretically,what would happen if you 'caught' one?


I'm far from an expert but it will make world news for sure just like it did in the early 80's when Russian submarine U137 grounded just a few 100m from shore outside Karlskrona close to naval base. Other than that it will most likely just intensify the communications between SWE/RUS diplomats as a start.

This is a video made by Swedish military back then

http://vimeo.com/11072021

However it's said that the Swedish marine will engage if they locate the sub and if someone is killed or hurt or if they catch someone infiltrating on land things may go differently.

Originally Posted By: Fille_SWE
I hope this will result in bigger funds for the armed forces.


I'm 100% sure it will. Recent events in Ukraine etc shows that the "Russian bear" is slowly waking up from it's ~25 year long hibernation and we can probably thank Mr Putin for that.

/KC
Posted By: scrim

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 04:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Chucky
Theoretically,what would happen if you 'caught' one?


I believe that they'd go along an ROE of shoot to warn, shoot to wound (albeit this being with a considerable accepted risk of killing due to the nature of submarines and depth charges) and finally an all out effort to kill if the sub doesn't surface or broken off parts can be quickly identified and salvaged for proof, with each step up being taken in a response to the sub failing to surface and surrender.

I feel our navy would be quite anxious to capture a Russian sub, even if only as a matter of prestige. It'd look a lot better than when they "caught" one solely due to the ineptitude of its crew, and it would certainly bolster the image of a branch of the Swedish military as being capable of defending the country without the help of NATO, which is a rather popular and certainly accurate notion. The navy would certainly have a better case to make for a larger budget than either the air force (which has failed to intercept Russian combat planes bound for Sweden, pleading a national holiday) or the army, which hasn't been acknowledged as being in actual combat since the Congo in the '60s (as doing so would be to acknowledge that we have in fact not been out of wars for 200 years (yes, the Congo part does that too, but it quite frankly seems that a lot of people count on that to be forgotten)).
Posted By: Charlie_SB

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Chucky
Theoretically,what would happen if you 'caught' one?


The ROE gives the armed forces authorization to fire without previous warning inside the archipelago. So that is probably what would happen if they got a positive contact. It happened a lot in the 80s and it has been confirmed that there were Soviet military deaths due to Swedish weapon employment. In the end there would be a diplomatic incident I guess.

The one caught, the S-363, did manage to catch itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363

The part about the west german grain carriers is great...

-C-
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Charlie_SB
It happened a lot in the 80s and it has been confirmed that there were Soviet military deaths due to Swedish weapon employment.


Ohh, wasn't aware of that. Out of curiosity do you have any links where it's mentioned?

/KC
Posted By: piston79

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Charlie_SB
[

The ROE gives the armed forces authorization to fire without previous warning inside the archipelago. So that is probably what would happen if they got a positive contact. It happened a lot in the 80s and it has been confirmed that there were Soviet military deaths due to Swedish weapon employment.


Really? who confirmed that???
Posted By: Charlie_SB

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 05:15 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79

Really? who confirmed that???


The former supreme commander of the swedish armed forces, Bengt Gustafsson, confirmed that. I was trying to illustrate that there has been a LOT of weapon employment in the past. In case there is a damaged sub that needs help I assume that the Swedish navy will assist and help out if asked.

-C-
Posted By: piston79

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Charlie_SB

The former supreme commander of the swedish armed forces, Bengt Gustafsson, confirmed that.


Hm, I never heard about such incidents.... Anyway, I guess we gotta believe what the commander told...
Posted By: Immermann

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 05:56 PM

Who cares. We have an open door policy on anyone who wants to come here anyway.
Why discriminate against russian submarines?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 06:04 PM

On some russian speaking medias appeared info that this sub is the flagman of the Baltic's fleet and it is on the bottom of the sea as "Kursk"... frown
Posted By: Charlie_SB

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/19/14 06:20 PM

This image was shown by the Swedish armed forces today and show an observation from today before lunch. The image is too small to actually see much but hopefully a full size image will be released later.



-C-
Posted By: Attackmack

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/24/14 08:53 AM

Hunt been cancelled and nothing found.
Well, the coastguard at least got their raise of budget and no longer need to lay off personale, guess they call this a success...
Posted By: jdbecks

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/24/14 09:13 AM

was it a submarine? was it really????



biggrin
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/24/14 10:17 AM

smile2

/KC
Posted By: Sim

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/24/14 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Charlie_SB
This image was shown by the Swedish armed forces today and show an observation from today before lunch. The image is too small to actually see much but hopefully a full size image will be released later.



-C-


Posted By: Charlie_SB

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/24/14 04:31 PM

Good one! He is still almost too small to notice though.

-C-
Posted By: U-96

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/24/14 07:14 PM

Wasn't it the Congo where the Swedish Air Force bombed a hospital? Ahead of their time those chaps ;-)
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/24/14 09:48 PM

I kind of doubt the Swedish Navy would drop depth charges even they located a nuclear powered Russian submarine in their waters. Not only might it kill the entire Russian crew on board but what about the nuclear reactor ?

I think a more likely scenario would be that the Swedes would tell the Russians "ok we found you now come up" and then they'd have dinner together on the Russian sub. After that they would shake hands and the Russians and their sub would go off into international waters as the sun was setting. That's how I would like it to end.
Posted By: KeyCat

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/24/14 10:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Haggart
I kind of doubt the Swedish Navy would drop depth charges even they located a nuclear powered Russian submarine in their waters. Not only might it kill the entire Russian crew on board but what about the nuclear reactor ?


Not always clear but the potential submarine/s we are talking about the past week are not really "conventional" subs. It was much smaller minisubs, most likely used by Spetznatz or similar special forces.

I'm 100% sure it wasn't the first time nor the last time they probed us underwater. Past year RUS have flexed it's mil muscle several times (as part of their psychological warfare I belive). In 2013 they performed a excercise attack with two Tupolev Tu 22 (IIRC) bombers (escorted by four Su-27) running in over international air space, one bomber headed in direction of the capital city and the other headed for big navalbase in SE Sweden. They broke off before Swedish air space but to me the message was clear...

And just a few weeks ago a RUS Su-27 flew up close - and I mean close - besides a Swedish non armed mil recon plane flying over international water and flashed all missiles toward the crew/cameras (lovely plane btw)...



Pic taken from Swedish article here...

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/ryska-jaktplan-allt-mer-nargangna/

/KC
Posted By: Haggart

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/24/14 11:14 PM

KeyCat..."Past year RUS have flexed it's mil muscle several times (as part of their psychological warfare I belive)"

lol psychological warfare ...and that lol isn't directed at what you said ..it's directed at Putin ....cause what you say is likely true. Problem is Putin's "psychology" is still mired in the Cold War Era. A part of him will always be a relic of his KGB past and the days of the "Iron Curtain".

When that is taken into account his psychological warfare game becomes more predictable and frankly should be less intimidating
Posted By: Charlie_SB

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/25/14 11:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Haggart
I kind of doubt the Swedish Navy would drop depth charges even they located a nuclear powered Russian submarine in their waters. Not only might it kill the entire Russian crew on board but what about the nuclear reactor ?

I think a more likely scenario would be that the Swedes would tell the Russians "ok we found you now come up" and then they'd have dinner together on the Russian sub. After that they would shake hands and the Russians and their sub would go off into international waters as the sun was setting. That's how I would like it to end.


There are no nuclear powered subs in the baltic sea. The submarines in the baltic are smaller quiet diesel electric subs. A big boomer is certainly not going to be placed in the baltic, there is just no mission for it there. And it's also a little bit like putting a hippo in your bathtub, you will notice it's there. ahoy

One can only speculate about weapons employment but it has not really been an issue in the past so I doubt it would now.

-C-
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/25/14 11:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Haggart
KeyCat..."Past year RUS have flexed it's mil muscle several times (as part of their psychological warfare I belive)"

lol psychological warfare ...and that lol isn't directed at what you said ..it's directed at Putin ....cause what you say is likely true. Problem is Putin's "psychology" is still mired in the Cold War Era. A part of him will always be a relic of his KGB past and the days of the "Iron Curtain".

When that is taken into account his psychological warfare game becomes more predictable and frankly should be less intimidating



It is not only Putin that is still mired in a Cold War mentality.
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/25/14 03:50 PM

Boomers can barely submerge in the Baltic when trying to pass through the Danish belt. Between Tallinn and Estonia you get water depths of 700m+ ... but that isn't very helpful if you want to penetrate the coastal defenses, ir if you want to break out of that pond and into the North Sea, then the Atlantic.
Posted By: Crane Hunter

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/25/14 04:02 PM

I wonder if the sub is still there, hidden and awaiting recovery later, or if they managed to get it out under its own power?
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/26/14 12:42 PM

Hi,
posted this in SubSim some time ago, about those intrusions into swedish waters.

The only one sub that was caught red-handed, of russian origin - was the W-137 called "Whiskey" on the rocks" by the press if i remember right, relating to the Nato designation of a russian "Whiskey" type sub, beached within swedish territorial waters.

This time, it may well be a russian sub, but back then all those incidents were most probably UK and US subs, trying to turn the swedish politics towards the west, against Russia, by imitating russian subs, repeatedly breaking swedish territorial waters and by this convinving the swedish government to keep towards the NATO probably becoming a member, and if keeping to neutrality at least have no negotiations with Russia.

And maybe i do not have to remind you, but 1987 swedish New Prime Minister Olof Palme was murdered on the streets of Stockholm.
Palme was fed up with the Submarine incidents and was planning to build up good relations with Russia on a nuclear free zone in the Baltic. The Russians were also very interested to improve the relations with neutral Sweden which could then act as buffer to NATO. Understandably, the Swedish/Russian relations had become quite frosty following the W-137 affairs.

But the swedish Navy felt betrayed. Also the NATO and the western allies were not happy. Three days before Palme's visit to Moscow in 1987, you could see six well known faces of high ranking Navy officers on the Front Pages of daily papers with the headline PALME IS A TRAITOR.

A TV reporter interviewed Palme and raised the question:

Have you any thoughts on why the officers in the Navy do not trust the Prime Minister?
Palme replied:
"I have had some thoughts if I could trust my officers and I came to the conclusion that that I can do so - which does not includes those 6 officers in the newspaper."

Two days later Mr Palme was shot dead - the murderer is still free despite a reward on 50 million SEK.

The Swedish Television recently released a program of Palme and the murder plot. It was aired in 3 parts and was extremely well done. The conclusion was that the murder was set up and organised by a number of ex officers, some of them later serving as police officers in Stockholm.
The "police trail" as it was called, was never followed, and Palme's death never clarified.

All smoke and mirrors, as said before the cold war mentality is still there, also within NATO.
Posted By: scrim

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/26/14 03:08 PM

That's the biggest load of conspiracy nonsense I've seen in a while. Especially considering the fact that as early as the Eisenhower administration, there'd been a covert NATO guarantee that should Sweden be invaded by the WP, NATO would declare war for our sake. There's a very good reason the entire Swedish military since the start of the Cold War was built based on a NATO template, and that several of the many gaps that were left in our military equipment and capabilities were never addressed even when the defence budget could cover it because NATO support in case of war was counted on to fill those gaps.
Posted By: Chris2525

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/26/14 03:53 PM

Correct. Sweden is and always has been a defacto NATO country.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52535.htm
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/26/14 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: scrim
That's the biggest load of conspiracy nonsense I've seen in a while. ...


I know you won't read it, but just for completion

http://books.google.de/books?id=nuiQAgAA...der&f=false

http://www.leopoldreport.com/LRsajt89.html

http://www.whale.to/b/assassination8.html
Posted By: scrim

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/26/14 06:42 PM

Pray tell good Sir, why NATO would be carrying out a black flag campaign to get us closer to NATO, when we'd in fact for decades been so close to them that we arranged and equipped our military like a regular NATO country and even intentionally let several dimensions of our military capabilities completely vanish as NATO was relied on to deal with those areas?

Or most importantly, why they would would be trying to trick us into believing that Soviet subs were violating our territorial waters when the discovery of S-363 proved to even the most uninterested common citizen that they actually were doing that for real?
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/26/14 06:58 PM

^ I hoped you can tell me that.
There were more than 12 reported (probably more) intrusions into swedish waters, one of it was indeed the W-137/S-363 Whiskey class SSK Diesel sub. The others ?

From: The Secret War Against Sweden: US and British Submarine Deception in the 1980s

pages 179 ff.:
http://books.google.de/books?id=nuiQAgAA...der&f=false

I do not say it could not have been a russian sub this time. I doubt it though, it fits too well in the current prpaganda and tensions, with Ukraine and Putin.
Posted By: scrim

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/26/14 07:11 PM

No, just no. I will not waste my time on frankly stupid conspiracy theories.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/27/14 12:44 PM

Some people refuse to believe the truth when it's simple, because they think EVERYTHING must be complex. There's also the back-slapping "I'm so clever I know what many people don't" angle to boost their enthusiasm for them.




The Jedi Master
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/27/14 02:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Some people refuse to believe the truth when it's simple, because they think EVERYTHING must be complex. There's also the back-slapping "I'm so clever I know what many people don't" angle to boost their enthusiasm for them...


Roger that.
B.t.w. i said it still might have been a russian sub.
But is also has become an annoying stereotype to make Russia responsible for all hidden operations, regardless by what country.
Then, do not believe everything the media tell you.

Facts:
Mr. Palme was killed, apparently because of some political aspects.
There was one russian sub (speaking of evidence) beached, back then in the 80ies.
Sub intrusions into swedish waters have a long record, and most have been proved to be US and 'NATO' subs.
Some have been sea lions, no joke (but maybe russian ones, ok)
NATO does not like politicians of befriended countries, being friends with the russians.

If you rule out the most unlikely scenario, connect some dots and then think of who gets the most out of a situation, you are usually not far from what really happened.
Ok lets end this here.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/27/14 02:31 PM

The idea that many of them being Russian subs is "the most unlikely scenario" doesn't hold up.
It's only unlikely if you've already made your mind up that it's not them.



The Jedi Master
Posted By: Ssnake

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/27/14 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Catfish
Facts:
Mr. Palme was killed ...
There was one russian sub (speaking of evidence) beached, back then in the 80ies.

Anything else is speculation. It remains unclear who murdered Palme, and as long as you don't have a murderer you can't be certain of the motive behind it. I concede that the investigations of Mr. Palme's assassination have been terribly botched - to the point where mere incompetence of the police appears almost too much to believe. But again, people make mistakes, sometimes even grave ones, sometimes even entire organizations unravel before the eyes of the public when put to the test in a high profile incident and fail to handle it adequately.
MAYBE there was a conspiracy behind Mr. Palme's death. But maybe, just maybe, the police indeed was as incompetent as it appeared to be. One may choose to believe otherwise, but shouldn't kid oneself about the question whether this is factual knowledge.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/28/14 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Ssnake

But maybe, just maybe, the police indeed was as incompetent as it appeared to be.


*cough*OJ Simpson*cough*




The Jedi Master
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/28/14 05:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Ssnake

Anything else is speculation. ...


And that any other sub was from russian origin, is also speculation, but the OP and the linked media make it look as if it were self-evident. Because, if anyone had read one of the links, the recorded acoustic signatures of the other incidents pointed at NATO subs. And sea lions, not to forget..
When we had operations in the baltic, it was a standing joke to slag the swedish navy for being on the sea lion hunt again, everytime they had detecetd a "submarine". They were sure nervous, and those hunts happened 3-4 times, a year.
Ok, everyone can believe what he wants smile2
Posted By: Charlie_SB

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/28/14 09:41 PM

There are no sea lions in the Baltic. There have been sounds from mink and herring but not sea lion.

You also have to use some other sources than Tunander. He is not really regarded as the most trustworthy of sources.

-C-
Posted By: scrim

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/28/14 11:56 PM

I think Catfish meant penguins fighting polar bears. That's what the Swedish Navy mistook for Russian submarines. That and NATO submarines, because a Russian submarine stranded in the Eastern archipelago is a surefire sign of NATO submarines having been around for ages, and Russians just turning up by mistake. Unless S-363 was a NATO black flag op.

Or in the end of the day, maybe Cat will simply dispute the fact that the Baltic isn't home to sea lions. You know, think for yourself, connect the dots, etc. right?
Posted By: PV1

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/29/14 06:44 AM

Obviously the sea lions were US black ops trained
animals with soviet-mimicking sonar transmitters
strapped to their backs. It'll all come out in
another 35 years...
Posted By: Catfish

Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt - 10/29/14 10:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Charlie_SB
There are no sea lions in the Baltic. There have been sounds from mink and herring but not sea lion.


Hehe, there are as much sea lions as russian subs.. or white whales as we called them.

Quote:
You also have to use some other sources than Tunander. He is not really regarded as the most trustworthy of sources.


Rgr that.
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