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American Sniper (film)

Posted By: Chaz

American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 02:26 AM

Directed by Clint Eastwood


Posted By: arthur666

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 02:48 AM

Damn. Just, damn...
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 02:52 AM

Three words ... Clint Eastwood

'nuff said. smile
Posted By: JimK

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 03:13 AM

Put yourself in his SHOES, OMG, The sentence you are about to serve. Nooooooooooooooooooo!
You feel yourself die over and over. To may tragedies have evolved like this,please no more.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 03:34 AM

I would take the shot in that situation. I wouldn't risk the lives of several comrades for the life of one kid.

As for the film, I'll be seeing it.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 03:40 AM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
I would take the shot in that situation. I wouldn't risk the lives of several comrades for the life of one kid.


Thank god you're not a sniper.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 03:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
I would take the shot in that situation. I wouldn't risk the lives of several comrades for the life of one kid.


Thank god you're not a sniper.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU



Did you take a good look at what the woman gave the kid?

And enough already with the smug "superior than thou" spiel. It's old.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 03:55 AM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Did you take a good look at what the woman gave the kid?

And enough already with the smug "superior than thou" spiel. It's old.


A shell of some sort I'm guessing?

I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I'm really looking forward to the film because Clint Eastwood directed it. I guess my first post came off a little sarcastic or something.
Posted By: Timothy

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 04:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Three words ... Clint Eastwood

'nuff said. smile


Are you quoting Joe Biden?




biggrin
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 04:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Timothy
Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Three words ... Clint Eastwood

'nuff said. smile


Are you quoting Joe Biden?


As I said, I really like Clint Eastwood's directing style so I made his name three words. biggrin

Really looking forward to the film.
Posted By: Falstar

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 04:21 AM

I wonder if Jessie Ventura's lawsuit will be in it?

This movie will probably help his estate pay off part of his judgement.
Posted By: kaa

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 08:28 AM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
I would take the shot in that situation. I wouldn't risk the lives of several comrades for the life of one kid.

As for the film, I'll be seeing it.



The kid is running with a shell under his jacket towards US troops...sniper or not there is little chance he 'll wake up in his bed the day after, so...fire !
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 08:53 AM

Looks like an RKG-3 anti armor grenade. Report up, track the kid, gets within throwing range you have 2 options. Shoot or not shoot. Intent is not entirely clear believe it or not. But killing this kid if you ID'ed the RKG-3 is probably within ROE. War is a horrible mess. But it is always possible that the kid is doing something strange like turn in a munition. Not likely however. HOPEFULLY....someone gets on the radio to get soldiers to intercept the kid out side of throwing range.

But also is missing from the puzzle here is just what is going on in this area. Is this a known bad guy area? Have their been lots of RKG-3 attacks? Do folks in this area use kids in attacks?

In the end, civvies walking up to soldiers right there sets off the alarm bells. At least in this context of clearing rooms and buildings. A combat unit rolls up and the locals go poof. Not walk at you.

Last bit... An RKG-3 as well as an RPG where shoot on sight weapons. US soldiers knew this...so did the locals. So why on earth would a woman, presumably give her kid something that would get him killed on sight? Who would be the actual perpetrator of this kids death? Next thing to look for, if time (ya right), would be a camera. Any potential attack like this would have some jerk with a video camera somewhere around.



So kill the what? 12 year old boy or maybe send home a few 18 or 19 year old boys in boxes? And the kicker of course....if he is actually about at commit an attack. Which it certainly looks like.
Posted By: RSColonel_131st

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 09:00 AM

How high is the chance that the kid survives a shoulder hit or some other hit that isn't into the head? I guess that's a risk worth taking.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 09:09 AM

You would aim center mass. not head. That is a Hollywood fantasy. As is shooting to incapacitate. If your shooting your shooting because you think there is a threat. A running target is a hard target. Even for uber sniper guy. Even if you are the best shot in the world, hitting a running leg or arm would be a damned crazy shot. The distance from the shooter to the kid is probably over 200 meters or more.

I suppose a warning shot could be used. Not really suppose to do that. Crap... Really an ambiguous situation. Of course its a clip of movie. And clearly we are to believe that only this sniper holds the fate of his fellow soldiers lives and the kids in his hands. Guess we have to see the movie right?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 09:18 AM

I'm not an expert on military stuff. But IIRC it's called a "body shot"? The point I recall is that even if you don't kill the guy, you got him incapacitated (temporarily) and you can get back to him later on (if there are many targets).

As for the kid, can't they alert the ground unit? I mean, if the kid doesn't intend to do harm, an alerted squad shouting, "Stop right there!" with their guns pointed at him should do the trick. Otherwise there's no other choice.
Posted By: RSColonel_131st

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 09:34 AM

FlashBurn, I know you ain't going to aim for the legs or arms, but I would have thought an off-center mass hit not into vital organs might give you a chance to get the guy sorted.
Posted By: Chris2525

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 09:43 AM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
I would take the shot in that situation. I wouldn't risk the lives of several comrades for the life of one kid.


I wouldn't have. As I was watching, I got the impression that the child may have been directed by the mother to hand the round over. There was no distinct indication of hostile intent. As well, the round didn't appear to be rigged to blow. It just looked like a raw RPG round - no wires, no apparent tampering.

As well, it's just a kid. Not a determined jihadist. A warning shot at his feet will at the very least stop him. Then you can get the terp forward to sort the situation out, have the kid drop the round or whatever. The point is he's stopped and you now have options. If you shoot and he doesn't stop, you still have the option of shooting again.

While I'd never let the kid get close to troops with that, there was enough time and enough space to attempt something else before going straight to deadly force.
Posted By: Chris2525

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 09:50 AM

Originally Posted By: RSColonel_131st
FlashBurn, I know you ain't going to aim for the legs or arms, but I would have thought an off-center mass hit not into vital organs might give you a chance to get the guy sorted.


You're not going be targeting individual organs or body parts on a moving child while the clock is ticking. It doesn't work like that. Even the best sniper has a certain degree of error in his shots against moving targets in dynamic conditions. That's why he aims for the centre of visible mass - to give himself the widest margin of error on all sides of his point of aim in order to maximize the probability of hit. If you aim for the shoulder, you're giving yourself maybe two or three inches of error margin on the one side before you're shot is a miss - and you're now having to re-cock and start again.
Posted By: komemiute

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 09:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris2525
Originally Posted By: RSColonel_131st
FlashBurn, I know you ain't going to aim for the legs or arms, but I would have thought an off-center mass hit not into vital organs might give you a chance to get the guy sorted.


You're not going be targeting individual organs or body parts on a moving child while the clock is ticking. It doesn't work like that. Even the best sniper has a certain degree of error in his shots against moving targets in dynamic conditions. That's why he aims for the centre of visible mass - to give himself the widest margin of error on all sides of his point of aim in order to maximize the probability of hit. If you aim for the shoulder, you're giving yourself maybe two or three inches of error margin on the one side before you're shot is a miss - and you're now having to re-cock and start again.


+1.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 09:59 AM

BTW... here is what I "think" that blurry low res image is... For those that do not know what this is...

http://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/rkg3_upg8/


If its an RKG-3 it is a fully ready to throw anti armor weapon. Meaning you get in throwing range EEEK!


An RPG round without a launcher or rigged into some sort IED thing is not really a threat at all.


And RSColonel_131st, Oh I am not trying to bust your balls. you are looking for way that everyone walks away more or less OK. That is a legit moral human response. Its just it does not work like that real world unfortunately.
Posted By: Chris2525

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: FlashBurn

I suppose a warning shot could be used. Not really suppose to do that.


Warning shots were authorized as tools for ROE escalations both when I was in Bosnia and when I was in Afghanistan. As long as you were accountable for your shots, you could use bullets as a communication tool when necessary. And rightly so. You'd be surprised how often people just don't understand the situation and proceed blindly (yet innocently) down a path towards a deadly situation, and need someone to shoot at their feet before they wake the f**k up and realize they're doing something dangerous.

People in those countries are no less distracted, ignorant and naive than they are here in the west. Sometimes they're just not paying attention or not thinking about what they're doing. In those cases, warning shots are an infinitely preferable alternative to someone being shot because they were being absent minded.
Posted By: Chris2525

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:03 AM

Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
BTW... here is what I "think" that blurry low res image is... For those that do not know what this is...

http://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/rkg3_upg8/


If its an RKG-3 it is a fully ready to throw anti armor weapon. Meaning you get in throwing range EEEK!


An RPG round without a launcher or rigged into some sort IED thing is not really a threat at all.


And RSColonel_131st, Oh I am not trying to bust your balls. you are looking for way that everyone walks away more or less OK. That is a legit moral human response. Its just it does not work like that real world unfortunately.




Oh, I thought it was an RPG. That does change things somewhat.

But I'd still wait for some indication of hostile intent. If you've got a bead on him, you can at least wait until he pulls it out and preps it before firing. And I still think a warning shot would send a child running in the other direction in any case.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris2525
Originally Posted By: FlashBurn

I suppose a warning shot could be used. Not really suppose to do that.


Warning shots were authorized as tools for ROE escalations both when I was in Bosnia and when I was in Afghanistan. As long as you were accountable for your shots, you could use bullets as a communication tool when necessary. And rightly so. You'd be surprised how often people just don't understand the situation and proceed blindly (yet innocently) down a path towards a deadly situation, and need someone to shoot at their feet before they wake the f**k up and realize they're doing something dangerous.

People in those countries are no less distracted, ignorant and naive than they are here in the west. Sometimes they're just not paying attention or not thinking about what they're doing. In those cases, warning shots are an infinitely preferable alternative to someone being shot because they were being absent minded.


True. I was coming at it from my old office. An m2HB. which they really frowned upon warning shots with that. And I know first hand how wacky things can get first hand. At least in Iraq generally after the 1st years everyone was more or less on the same page. But just the same..... And tcp's are different from unit to unit. Let alone National Army to Army. With dismounted soldiers a warning shot makes alot of sense when seconds count. In vehicles its a tad more complex as the weapons are quite a bit bigger. On the flip side you have spot lights and maybe pin flares for night and silly flags or hand singles to try and get the point across. But pointing a .50 MG at people generally got some questionable activity to knock it off.


LOL... I wrote TCP and no one called that out. TCP traffic control point. FOOKING anachronism soap. TTP is what that was suppose to be.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris2525
Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
BTW... here is what I "think" that blurry low res image is... For those that do not know what this is...

http://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/rkg3_upg8/


If its an RKG-3 it is a fully ready to throw anti armor weapon. Meaning you get in throwing range EEEK!


An RPG round without a launcher or rigged into some sort IED thing is not really a threat at all.


And RSColonel_131st, Oh I am not trying to bust your balls. you are looking for way that everyone walks away more or less OK. That is a legit moral human response. Its just it does not work like that real world unfortunately.




Oh, I thought it was an RPG. That does change things somewhat.

But I'd still wait for some indication of hostile intent. If you've got a bead on him, you can at least wait until he pulls it out and preps it before firing. And I still think a warning shot would send a child running in the other direction in any case.


I agree. So long as the kid is out side throwing range there is some wiggle room. Just hope folks are listening in on the same push. At the same time, ROE and an RKG-3 a soldier *should* be free and clear of prosecution should he feel the need to fire. But it is a fuzzy on intent. I lean towards hostile. But its not QUITE there. But that would vary from person to person.
Posted By: Chris2525

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:19 AM

When the dutch took over command of our multinational brigade in Kandahar, it quickly became clear they were gun-shy when it came to ROEs. They implemented this silly pen-flare step into the ROE process. Instead of using a warning shot against vehicles when we were mounted on the road, we were to shoot this pen flare in the air (as if the afghans would have any idea what it means, or who the message was intended for), and the dutch thought that would solve the situation without live rounds needing to be fired.

It was pretty silly, but I'll give them one thing - when we started shooting them directly at the windshields of approaching cars, they worked like gangbusters!
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:28 AM

Ya... those flares to at night to windshields always did the trick. A person did not know exactly wtf that was. Is it a tracer flying at my face? Shooting those in the air? That would not do anything..... OOOOH look, pretty.
Posted By: Chris2525

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:29 AM

Ok, watching it again, I realize that what gave me the impression that there wasn't hostile intent was the way the kid was carrying the grenade. His body language said to me that he was bringing it the US troops, not trying to kill them. There's plenty of room for me to be wrong in this impression mind you.

The body language of the mom on the other hand tells the opposite story. Not to mention the guy on the roof (who I would have shot based on his actions and his demeanor).

I'm guessing that scene was specifically scripted to be as ambiguous as possible - probably to illustrate just how hard that guy's job was.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Chris2525
Ok, watching it again, I realize that what gave me the impression that there wasn't hostile intent was the way the kid was carrying the grenade. His body language said to me that he was bringing it the US troops, not trying to kill them. There's plenty of room for me to be wrong in this impression mind you.

The body language of the mom on the other hand tells the opposite story. Not to mention the guy on the roof (who I would have shot based on his actions and his demeanor).

I'm guessing that scene was specifically scripted to be as ambiguous as possible - probably to illustrate just how hard that guy's job was.


Yes.. true. I keyed into the women more than the kid. but he is carrying it out in the open. Oh cell phone guy? Ya , most likely up to no good. Would not have shot him simply because in Iraq you would have depopulated half the country. But again we don't know the back story. Why are these guys in the town? Now video cameras in weird places..... Always up to no good. Or something is about to blow up.
Posted By: Chris2525

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:35 AM

Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
Ya... those flares to at night to windshields always did the trick. A person did not know exactly wtf that was. Is it a tracer flying at my face? Shooting those in the air? That would not do anything..... OOOOH look, pretty.



I like them in the direct fire role because they are aggressive enough to get someone's attention and tell them you're upset with them, and it leaves no question as to who you're addressing (unless you miss of course).

I always found that to be one major obstacle to communication - making sure the person you're engaging knew it was them who was being engaged. Honking horns, waving, looking at them with sunglasses on your face always left people wondering who you were talking to.

I spent half of my tour in the crew commander's hatch of a 25mm LAV turret. And you'd think that pointing the turret at someone would send a message, but it almost never did. The reason being that looking down a barrel does not have the same effect as eye contact. More often than not, pointing a huge turret mounted cannon at a person did nothing, and I'd have to point the pintle mounted MG or my rifle at the person from my hatch to get the message across. Pretty funny when you think about it.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:45 AM

Probably should say WHY cell phones are bad in these wonderful places for those not in the know... It one of the primary ways to set off IED's.


Yes with vehicle turrets you never know the reason it is pointing this way or that. Since a good crew is scanning always a vehicle will not really know why it stopped on their car. Unless you unbutton and start "communicating". biggrin Easier if its a multi person sort. If its a one man deal...UGH a pain. Assuming a real AFV turret. The open topped things where easy enough.



OPPS about the movie. Ya probably should go see that. Good ole Clint there should do an interesting job.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 10:47 AM

Good debate guys. The analysis from both sides (shoot or not shoot) have some merit and I agree that the trailer was made to be as ambiguous as possible to ramp up the dramatic tension.
Posted By: FlashBurn

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 11:04 AM

OH the trailer did exactly what it was suppose to do. This kind of situation was an everyday event. Maybe not quite as clear cut. But soldiers only have seconds to make these crazy life and death decisions. And amazingly get it more or less right most of the time. The US military really REALLY stressed the intent aspect. You know lots of folks have this impression of a bunch of cowboy yanks running around shooting everything. While, ya sometimes I guess. But usually was something totally other than that. I hope this film, like this trailer shows these crazy situations that young soldiers had and have to deal with. Perhaps it helps the understanding.
Posted By: Pooch

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/03/14 06:21 PM

There shouldn't be any debate about what the kid is carrying. The sniper clearly says, into his radio, "She has an RKG. And RKG Russian grenade."
Wow. Rough call. The kid is running straight toward a squad of soldiers carrying a grenade. I don't think anyone would fault you if you took that shot. You'd have to live with it, though, and just try and convince yourself that you did the right thing. From experience, you'd know already that these people are not above using children for such things.
There's also that option of calling the squad, of course. Then firing right at the kid's feet. He'd probably stop, for a second. But then, if he kept running the squad would now know he's coming. They could deal with it. Of course, someone would probably want to know why you didn't shoot when you knew he was carrying a grenade. Could be a no-win situation.
Posted By: WolfDancer

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 02:14 AM

A less ambiguous take:



Snipers, whether police or army, are trained to do one thing really well: take out, 'neutralize', a human subject. I have no idea, but am curious to know, what percentage of their training is devoted to assessing the threat level of such subjects. Can anyone enlighten me?
Posted By: Nixer

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 02:26 AM

Were are missing THE in house expert's opinion. I'd imagine he's staying out for a reason.

Also, gotta laugh about the "body language" stuff. You wanna turn in an explosive device? Well just sneak it to your kid in the middle of the street and let him take it to the kafirs. rolleyes

If you want to get rid of your kid....
Posted By: Ajay

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 07:14 AM

Good clip.

Clint, Cooper and Sienna Miller (Liked her since factory girl) ..definitely a goer, maybe not big screen..dunno yet.
Posted By: Para_Bellum

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 09:03 AM

When I served in the German Bundeswehr in 1993/94 I was trained as a sniper/sharpshooter. We were among the first to undergo a dedicated sniper training since until that time the German army didn't actually have a sniper doctrine but merely used dedicated marksmen (with scoped G3s) in their infantry squads. The transformation from a cold-war defence force to an "expeditionary force" capable of peace-keeping and peace-enforcing missions changed that.

We sometimes trained in a "shooting cinema" where we would fire with subcalibre ammo at a screen showing various scenes that required quick situational judgement. Sometimes this was done after very exhausting training and with the instructors doing their best to put you under extreme stress.

I am very glad I never had to make such judgements in real life.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 02:37 PM

I suspect the trailer is a mashup of this ...

Quote:
At one point, Kyle wrote, he shot a woman who was carrying a grenade while with her toddler. But he did not kill a child in Baghdad's Sadr City area who had a rocket-propelled grenade launcher. "According to the rules of engagement at the time, you could kill anyone with an RPG on sight. That day I just couldn't kill the kid. He'll probably grow up and fight us, but I just didn't want to do it."


I read somewhere (can't find it anymore) that Chris also said he'd rather wait and kill the savage that put the kid up to it.

Hell of a trailer though! Can't wait to see what happens!
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 02:39 PM

Oh ya, have you guys read about Chris Kyle killing two armed robbers in 2009? It’s like a scene right out of a Dirty Harry movie (or even one of his hold Westerns)! cool ...

http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/2013/02...tation-in-2009/
Posted By: Jayhawk

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 03:12 PM

The way the actress who is playing the mother is acting in this fictionalized and dramatized version of a possibly real event, gives the impression that she was instructing her boy to run over to the Americans and detonate the grenade.

If you are merely "returning" ordinance that you may have found, you a) don't send your kid, and b) don't hide it under your clothes.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 03:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Jayhawk
The way the actress who is playing the mother is acting in this fictionalized and dramatized version of a possibly real event, gives the impression that she was instructing her boy to run over to the Americans and detonate the grenade.

If you are merely "returning" ordinance that you may have found, you a) don't send your kid, and b) don't hide it under your clothes.



Exactly my thoughts as well.
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 05:47 PM

Here is my input on a few of the posts.

First off, realize that my experience is some 35 years old and was under different circumstances.

In Sniper School you are instructed on camouflage, stealth, intelligence gathering, and shooting. They did not teach ROE, intent, etc.

The target servicing was predicated on eliminating high value targets and working your way down. This is paramount - a Sniper was trained that all of his effort was at saving the lives of his fellow soldiers by eliminating things that would endanger them. It is about protecting your fellow soldiers. That is drummed into you. So in watching that trailer, I would have shot. First the adult as the key target facilitated by an easy stationary shot. Then quickly shift to the running boy. If he did not stop and/or go the other way because of the shot fired, I would have engaged him so as to eliminate the threat to my fellow soldiers. The actions of both were a threat. I did not see their actions as non-threatening. That said, you then have to live with it. It sucks. All combat does.

However we are lacking all the in-depth intell of the situation. We don't know the threat level, ROE, command and control linkages, we don't know if the sniper team was in contact with those dismounted soldiers, etc, etc. One variable is known -highly experienced sniper team. That almost always results in more controlled engagements. I Will say something about human nature. After all the training and lead-up, a new sniper team will be more likely to shoot. They have been trained to do it and feel the requirement to fulfill that training. Dealing with all the stress, uncertainty, and fear in initial combat experience, they will follow their training to protect their fellow soldiers. A dark thing in human nature is that to some degree they want to perform their role and want to make their first kills. Not an issue in this case.

You don't do fancy targeting. You aim for the best chance of a hit.

Now, I will say that the training is constantly being changed. The training is adapted for the needs of the current conflict. So my ancient training is probably significantly different than now.

Another thing is vastly superior equipment to what I used. Much better scopes. Better clarity, resolution, and magnification.

Which leads me to something I see very wrong in the trailer. Where was the spotter ? The spotter has the better observation optics and is the one responsible for watching and analyzing the assigned area. He makes the initial identification and aims the shooter to the target. The shooter is the secondary scanner for several reasons. Less capable optics and more importantly human factors of not being able to stay in proper shooting position for long because of eye and muscle fatigue. The spotter makes the communications with other units. That is another thing that has changed greatly since I worked. Communications are so vastly superior they are completely different than then. Much more integration of the battlefield because of them.

But in combat, it always comes down to the man on the ground in contact. He will do what he decides is best right then and there.

As I said, I'd have engaged while the spotter reported to whoever was our link. Then go back to scanning the area for other threats.
Posted By: scrim

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris2525
Ok, watching it again, I realize that what gave me the impression that there wasn't hostile intent was the way the kid was carrying the grenade. His body language said to me that he was bringing it the US troops, not trying to kill them. There's plenty of room for me to be wrong in this impression mind you.

The body language of the mom on the other hand tells the opposite story. Not to mention the guy on the roof (who I would have shot based on his actions and his demeanor).

I'm guessing that scene was specifically scripted to be as ambiguous as possible - probably to illustrate just how hard that guy's job was.


Don't tell me we're analyzing the behaviour of people in a movie? wink

I'm gonna go with common sense here. If you're in a neighborhood of Iraq so bad that you bring tanks, and you see a woman walk out into the street with her child and give him an RPG rocket which he proceeds to start running at your troops with, it's not a good thing that's planned.

Common sense #2: If you take a warning shot with a bolt action rifle, you're gonna have very little time to reload when that kid starts sprinting towards the soldiers. Not to mention that he'd probably also have to stand up, since he didn't appear to have much FoV due to those ornaments or whatever in the wall.
Posted By: Sim

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 09:09 PM

This movies is based on a book called ....same as the movie name. His first shot was this scenario. He took the shoot.
Posted By: U-96

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 10:01 PM

lol thanks for the spoiler Sim. now wash your mouth out with fuel oil biggrin
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 10:15 PM

I looked up this guy on wiki and I had no idea that he's dead and it was such a bizarre death too.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 11:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Sim
This movies is based on a book called ....same as the movie name. His first shot was this scenario. He took the shoot.


Wow, I could actually feel my brain cells dying during the millisecond it took me to read the content, bad grammar and spelling in that post.

Anyway,

Originally Posted By: CNN
His first kill was a woman who cradled a toddler with one hand and held a grenade in the other.


Originally Posted By: Wiki
His first long-range kill shot was taken during the initial [Iraq] invasion, when he shot a woman approaching a group of Marines with a hand grenade in her hand. As ordered, he opened fire, killing the woman before she could attack.


Not REALLY the scenario in the trailer if you ask me.

I also think it’s laughable that some of you armchair snipers are making some very real decisions about killing a kid based on a Hollywood trailer.

Take the shoot! wink
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 11:15 PM

Armchair snipers ?
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 11:29 PM

Ya, kinda like "armchair generals". You've never heard that term?
Posted By: Suicidal_6

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/04/14 11:57 PM

Some are not armchair snipers. Way to put your foot in your mouth.
Posted By: shan2

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 12:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Ya, kinda like "armchair generals". You've never heard that term?


Probably not, since it doesn't apply to him.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Suicidal_6
Some are not armchair snipers. Way to put your foot in your mouth.


I'm only speaking of anyone who's posted in this thread.

Let's see a show of hands. Who has posted in this thread and has at least one confirmed kill as a sniper?
Posted By: oldgrognard

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 12:19 AM

STFU
Posted By: Sim

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 12:24 AM

<giggles like a school girl>
Posted By: shan2

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 12:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Originally Posted By: Suicidal_6
Some are not armchair snipers. Way to put your foot in your mouth.


I'm only speaking of anyone who's posted in this thread.

Let's see a show of hands. Who has posted in this thread and has at least one confirmed kill as a sniper?


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Well, the guy who just told you to STFU would fit that bill.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 12:36 AM

Originally Posted By: oldgrognard
STFU


Ok, at least one CLAIMED kill as a sniper then. Hands up (and no school girl giggles smile ), and I'll shut my ass right up.
Posted By: Pooch

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 12:41 AM

So here's the way its supposed to work. I guess. If you aren't actually a pilot, do not post in any of the aviation threads. You have never flown an airplane. You have no right to offer an opinion.
Never been in the army? Stay out of the tactical threads. You know nothing about tactics or strategy. Been a general? Didn't think so. Do not post.
I'm sure most have never driven a racing car. You are not welcomed in the racing section. Driving your SUV fast on the freeway doesn't count. If you've never done the Indy 500, we don't care what you think.
I've been posting in SUBSIM since reinstalling SH4 and 5. I am going to go and apologize and tell them I won't bother them anymore.
I would like to second Oldgrognard's suggestion.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 12:45 AM

Pooch ... challenge/response is the only rule I post by in these situations.
Posted By: Pooch

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 12:58 AM

Thing is, if you're gonna tell people that they shouldn't post if they've never done it....you might as well shut down SIMHQ.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 01:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Pooch
Thing is, if you're gonna tell people that they shouldn't post if they've never done it....you might as well shut down SIMHQ.


It's a GODDAM MOVIE FOR FUK SAKES!

Post about the movie! biggrin

Serenity now ... serenity now ...
Posted By: shan2

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 01:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Pooch ... challenge/response is the only rule I post by in these situations.


You inadvertently (and I'm being quite generous given your behavior) called a decorated retired Army sniper who spent nearly half his career in Central America an "armchair sniper" and then doubled down on the stupid a few posts later.

And we, his friends, are warning you that your asking OG for his credentials after insulting him in that fashion is a pretty childish and rude display when we informed you of his service. That is indeed a response to your mouthing off...er...challenge.

Do you think that maybe...just maybe...it is not appropriate to ask any veteran if he has killed during his time in service?

OG may show up again in this thread, but the thought probably has crossed his mind that he has killed better men than you. You shouldn't hold your breath. wink

Anyway, OG isn't the kind of man who would ban you, so don't get your panties all knotted.
Posted By: FearlessFrog

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 01:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Originally Posted By: Pooch
Thing is, if you're gonna tell people that they shouldn't post if they've never done it....you might as well shut down SIMHQ.


It's a GODDAM MOVIE FOR FUK SAKES!

Post about the movie! biggrin

Serenity now ... serenity now ...


I've never made a movie, not professionally at least. Is there a cut-off for box-office totals or directors guild years etc before commenting, otherwise just anyone could say anything?
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 01:33 AM

Originally Posted By: shan2
You inadvertently (and I'm being quite generous given your behavior) called a decorated retired Army sniper who spent nearly half his career in Central America an "armchair sniper" and then doubled down on the stupid a few posts later.


How the hell am I supposed to know that? A mere SFTU doesn't cut it.
Posted By: FearlessFrog

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 01:37 AM

I'm with Sim, this thread was laugh out loud funny.

Linebacker - turn off the lights and lie on the floor. Just in case..

As for the movie, sure, looks good.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 01:39 AM

Originally Posted By: FearlessFrog
As for the movie, sure, looks good.


That's all I need to hear.
Posted By: shan2

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 01:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Originally Posted By: shan2
You inadvertently (and I'm being quite generous given your behavior) called a decorated retired Army sniper who spent nearly half his career in Central America an "armchair sniper" and then doubled down on the stupid a few posts later.


How the hell am I supposed to know that? A mere SFTU doesn't cut it.


I, suicidal, and Sim pretty much spelled it out for you. Next time, we will use smaller words in larger fonts so that you understand.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 01:57 AM

Speaking of the trailer ... I think Bradley Cooper has that stone cold relaxed sniper voice down pat!

Stone cold killing machine. Everything you want in a sniper.
Posted By: Pooch

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 02:08 AM

Yeah, I thought the way he sounded was EXTREMELY convincing. Especially the way he said, "He's steppin' off." I don't know why.
Posted By: Falstar

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 02:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Speaking of the trailer ... I think Bradley Cooper has that stone cold relaxed sniper voice down pat!

Stone cold killing machine. Everything you want in a sniper.


I didn't even recognize Bradley Cooper. I watched the trailer and was thinking whoever that is looks a lot like Kyle. Then I read where Cooper put on 40 lbs. for the movie and had actually talked to Kyle before his murder.
Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 03:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Falstar
Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Speaking of the trailer ... I think Bradley Cooper has that stone cold relaxed sniper voice down pat!

Stone cold killing machine. Everything you want in a sniper.


I didn't even recognize Bradley Cooper. I watched the trailer and was thinking whoever that is looks a lot like Kyle. Then I read where Cooper put on 40 lbs. for the movie and had actually talked to Kyle before his murder.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ12PN81xnI
Posted By: Mad Max

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 07:05 AM

The Internet is a tricky thing, Linebacker, you never know who you're talking to.

Best not to make assumptions, and always post as if you're face to face with someone and ready to take any consequences that might ensue.

101 Manners is the name of the game.

Just saying.
Posted By: RSColonel_131st

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 10:52 AM

LOL, that was priceless.
Posted By: DetCord

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 11:40 AM

Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
BTW... here is what I "think" that blurry low res image is... For those that do not know what this is...

http://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/rkg3_upg8/


If its an RKG-3 it is a fully ready to throw anti armor weapon. Meaning you get in throwing range EEEK!


An RPG round without a launcher or rigged into some sort IED thing is not really a threat at all.


And RSColonel_131st, Oh I am not trying to bust your balls. you are looking for way that everyone walks away more or less OK. That is a legit moral human response. Its just it does not work like that real world unfortunately.


It is a RKG-3. I would've smoked him in a heartbeat.

If anyone wants to know what it can do to a vehicle and those inside it, here ya go. At least this is what one did to my vehicle.




Posted By: Anonymous

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 11:58 AM

Just reading OG's post I realized one thing. His first worry was about his take on the matter being "obsolete" or "ancient". I'm not sure if it's as obvious to anyone else but to me, it's pretty clear that it was something spoken out of experience. In a room full of armchair generals the challenge about a "confirmed kill" may seem harmless. But imagine being a room full of real veterans and asking them to talk about the people they've killed?

I'm not in the military but that is an insensitive question.
Posted By: Airdrop01

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 01:36 PM

It doesn't seem harmless at all. It just seems asinine.
Posted By: Falstar

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Airdrop01
It doesn't seem harmless at all. It just seems asinine.


Especially around this bunch of loveable knuckleheads. biggrin
Posted By: CyBerkut

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 04:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Mad Max
The Internet is a tricky thing, Linebacker, you never know who you're talking to.

Best not to make assumptions, and always post as if you're face to face with someone and ready to take any consequences that might ensue.

101 Manners is the name of the game.

Just saying.


Indeed. It's always wise to allow for the various possibilities, before saying something that could be regrettable.

As for O.G., I have had the good fortune of meeting him and riding in his plane on a couple of trips. (he's a good pilot with excellent judgement, BTW.) I was aware of my own bias, so I refrained from posting my initial reaction to that exchange between Linebacker and O.G. As I expected, other people handled it in a fashion more suited to 'Community Hall', so it's just as well.

On the subject of the trailer and whether to shoot, or not... a lot of good points have been brought up, many of them by people who served over there in some capacity. My background doesn't include those sorts of experiences, so I find their input enlightening.

I found the portrayal of the spotter to seem very odd. I'm sure it served a cinematic purpose for him to be there voicing an alternative theory, and raising the specter of punishment for a bad call... but the behavior depicted didn't match my understanding of what spotters are supposed to do.

If the Rules of Engagement gave the sniper the leeway to make the call, then a lot would seem to hinge upon whether he had direct radio comms to the squad moving through, and whether his field of fire could cover the entire space between the kid's starting point and the front of the squad. He called out a distance of 200 yards (probably from his own position), but it looked to be considerably less than that from the squad. I could see the sniper making the decision to put one into the street in front of the kid, if the sniper had decided he had enough time and a field of fire to make a follow up shot on the kid if he still kept advancing upon the squad. There's no certainty that the kid would properly detect and evaluate the shot and then make the correct decision to stop in place, etc.
If there is direct comms to the squad, then alert them and let them handle it. The kid is looking at them after all, and is more likely to see them pointing guns at him and react by stopping. Without direct comms to the squad, the sniper probably should be firing a shot... into the street if he thinks he has time and field of fire for a followup, or into the kid if he doesn't think he can take the risk.

A tough call... no doubt about that.

It's just a hunch, but it wouldn't surprise me if that woman was sneaking the RKG out of the home to get it away from the guy that was seen on the cell phone.
Posted By: Timothy

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 04:35 PM

I'd have smoked them both.
Posted By: ObvilionLost

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/05/14 05:56 PM

That scene with a kid in the trailer carrying RKG-3, it's probably one of the reasons why it sucks to be a sniper especially in such environments where the enemy could use civilians to deliver IED's. You have to make a tough decisions and live through the outcome of that choice. Anyway this looks like an interesting film.
Posted By: Nixer

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/06/14 12:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Mad Max
The Internet is a tricky thing, Linebacker, you never know who you're talking to.

Best not to make assumptions, and always post as if you're face to face with someone and ready to take any consequences that might ensue.

101 Manners is the name of the game.

Just saying.


+1......MILLION

AND, I have to add...Linebacker you don't go out and meet people face to face very often do you?

Or, if you do, you are one big, bad ass individual!

In the end I guess it's just some people matter in life and some are just a waste of bandwidth.

Have a nice day smile

EDIT: AND AGAIN, as far as this thread is concerned DetCord pics and personal experience FAR out way the rest of the crap being tossed out here.

Murphy do us all a favor and lock this thing.
Posted By: WolfDancer

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/06/14 01:32 AM

Posted By: Linebacker

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/06/14 01:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Nixer
EDIT: AND AGAIN, as far as this thread is concerned DetCord pics and personal experience FAR out way the rest of the crap being tossed out here.


+1 (it's "outweigh" though ... not "out way") wink
Posted By: Nixer

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/06/14 02:06 AM

Thanks. Always happy to justify the grammar police's existence.

AND good to know you have a job. smile
Posted By: Wireman

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/06/14 02:52 AM

Less than 2 percent of the grammar police fire their weapon on the job. Fact.
Posted By: Peally

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/06/14 12:55 PM

Wow didn't take long for the Monday morning quarterbacking to happen. Looks good, will see it.

And yes, don't be boobs, a kid with a rocket coming at troops is fair game, age be damned. There is no such thing as shooting things out of people's hands (if you did the kid would be missing a hand biggrin )
Posted By: Ajay

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/06/14 11:10 PM

Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
I looked up this guy on wiki and I had no idea that he's dead and it was such a bizarre death too.


There was a thread posted here and in PWEC the day it happened..pretty whack situation.

CHRIS KYLE KILLED
Posted By: Bill_Grant

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/07/14 03:07 AM

All the tension in the scene made it easy to ignore that the SCOPE and his SHIRT changed.
biggrin
Posted By: Peally

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/07/14 01:09 PM

They both got too dusty, he swapped them out. Those snipers are quick ones wink
Posted By: Jayhawk

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/07/14 03:43 PM

Keep in mind this is just a trailer. In the theatrical version, that scene starts out with Chris Kyle's/Bradley Cooper's face shaved clean. wink That kid is really taking his own sweet time.... biggrin

So of course he swapped scopes, at least twice.

Also, it's his third spotter (the other two ended their tours while he was waiting for the sequence to resolve). smile



And yes, I am a little silly today... wink
Posted By: Murphy

Re: American Sniper (film) - 10/08/14 04:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Nixer
Originally Posted By: Mad Max
The Internet is a tricky thing, Linebacker, you never know who you're talking to.

Best not to make assumptions, and always post as if you're face to face with someone and ready to take any consequences that might ensue.

101 Manners is the name of the game.

Just saying.


+1......MILLION

".....edit...."

Murphy do us all a favor and lock this thing.



I don't think so Nixer, it's much too late for that.
The damage has been done. I wish I'd had the time to read this 9 page thread before this.
Now, we should try to cleanse the good name of a slandered member.
Then we'll lock it.

-----------------------------------------------

Originally Posted By: Linebacker

Speaking of the trailer ... I think Bradley Cooper has that stone cold relaxed sniper voice down pat!

Stone cold killing machine. Everything you want in a sniper.


....So, what you want in a sniper.
A good voice? And that makes him..."A Stone cold killing machine".

And that is what you believe a sniper is, everything you want?
I expect a little more.

Originally Posted By: Linebacker

I also think it’s laughable that some of you armchair snipers are making some very real decisions about killing a kid based on a Hollywood trailer.


Aren't most people here discussing 'real' events? What would they do in that situation, in 'real life'? That is what this is about, we all know it.

Does DetCord's vehicle look like a video game?
Is he just making that up too, copying photos?
Or, is he 'not allowed' to post, in your eyes, because he wasn't a 'sniper'.
Should we belittle him also?
Of course not. I thank him for his contribution.
Those photos are frightening, and real.

Max said it, "101 Manners".

Armchair sniper?

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Ya, kinda like "armchair generals". You've never heard that term?


Really?
After you being here for years, reading these threads, making 1596 posts, and having several posters verify OG's accomplishments over the years, and BTW you can add me to the long list, and stating that he 'is' genuine, still....you call the man, OldGrognard, an "Armchair Sniper"!

Why would you think he is not genuine?
All of us who have been here for a decade or two, met him, been to his home, flew with him, know who he is. And have posted here, about the experience.
You have been here all that time.

Originally Posted By: Linebacker
Originally Posted By: Suicidal_6
Some are not armchair snipers. Way to put your foot in your mouth.


I'm only speaking of anyone who's posted in this thread.

Let's see a show of hands. Who has posted in this thread and has at least one confirmed kill as a sniper?


And the ultimate insult, asking before offering, some sort of 'detailed, personal' information, on his service.

I'd say it appears, that someone who is 'genuine', really admirable, and performed a great service to his country, displays a serious threat to you. You attack his integrity. Why does that appear to be a 'threat' to you personally?
Why the hostility, in the face of such overwhelming evidence all these years that, he is in fact, genuine?
That really makes me wonder about your contribution.

And I apologize to you OG, for bringing this up, I'm sure it's not the most 'pleasant' of memories.
I can relate to that. The 'reflection' on what changes I may have made in so many peoples lives, haunts me.
My experiences are on paper, in writing, and documented BTW.
I think of my 'violent' experiences daily, without 'reminders'. It just doesn't matter to me any longer. I go over them every night, regardless. It's not going away. It's just part of the 'experience', the cost every human pays for it. Nothing unique or unusual, in dealing with the aftermath. I know several people on this forum, in the same situation, with the same feelings.

But being called an 'armchair warrior', here, among friends, would be the ultimate insult to me.
So...I can sympathize with OldGrognard. I'm sure it is to him also.

I apologize OG, for any abuse you suffered from posts in this forum.
My fault, I'm responsible. But what's done, is done. We can't take it back.
We can only try to put out the correct information. Some things can't be 'taken back'.

Thank you for your 'sacrifice'.
Because sometimes, it's more than just, service.



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