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Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind )

Posted By: milan_croatia

Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 05/14/13 02:19 PM

Product is finished now and ready for preorder...read all final features at page 12

Website is online
http://www.mfg.simundza.com/

Updates 28.01.2013 on Page 18

This below is old info :



Hi all
I think it's finaly time to reveal what I've been working on. So I figure it's best place to start here. I am co-owner of a family furniture production business...and have a nice CNC machine there. Also as a flight sim enthusiast I decided to make some stuff for myself. While designing this new pedals I thought some of you might be interested as well, and it's possible that I'll be selling these too so I tried to design it to be suitable for others.

I present you my first prototype, with many small flaws in CNC machining or design... but just for you to get the idea.

Characteristics are :

- almost all Composite, some small parts machined from aluminium.
- Extremly precise and no lag.
- Contactless sensors and 12 bit resolution on all 3 axes - USB connection
- 15 ball bearings, all industrial components
- adjustable pedals angle from 20 to 53 ˘degree ( up to 63 degree with added extra bottom plate )
- differential brakes with 20 degree angle movement
- different pedal styles - easy to exchange ( only 1 screw)
- CAM and spring centering design with adjustable tension on spring , and also two spring positions for separate adjustment of tension near center and near the end of motion.
- spare CAM with different sliding curve...still in development...but will probably be no center feel and low tension for helicopters.

Intentions are to produce cessna style and combat - F16 style pedals. It is not my intention to integrate force sensing brakes at the moment. It is based on spring tension brakes.

In prototype you can see that I made few mistakes on CNC while making holes, right brake spring is missing, electronics are partly connected as I am still testing some electronics and sensors.

I'm still not happy with cam centering becouse while adjusting spring to get more force centering feel go stronger too, specialy noticable while quick changes from one side to another - I will reduce it. Also, I'm waiting for a few other bearings to come becouse these Y bearing have too much radial play for my taste, maybe i'm a perfectionist but that's the way it is. Also i'm trying to reduce some weight , as at the moment it's built too strong. Pedals weight 5,5 kg and can support over 110 kg on each pedal...unnecessary strong. You can see also that I made baseplate from chipboard..just for testing, later I will make Composite.

Let's say this is 80 % finished design.

Please leave your comment
Milan


















[size:8pt][/size]
Posted By: J.A.K.

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/14/13 05:16 PM

Nice design and proto!!!! How about a gimbal design thumbsup
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/14/13 05:26 PM

Thanks. I need to perfect this one first, then, i will make same additional pedals cessna style and F-16 / boeing 747 style... it's ment to be easy to exchange. Hight of this rudder from the floor is also already suitable for cessna too.
- after all that I'll see gimbal design, but only If it's possible to implement force feedback :-)
Posted By: komemiute

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/14/13 09:14 PM

Any idea about the cost?
Posted By: HitchHikingFlatlander

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/14/13 09:44 PM

Very nice!
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/14/13 10:43 PM

Well, I wanted to bring it for 200 eur...onfortunately I'm already over that budget :-(

Let's put it this way... I want pedals to be perfect, and under 300 eur. I think I can do that, but I am still not shure :-)
Posted By: komemiute

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/14/13 10:58 PM

Good work anyway! biggrin

Keep going!
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/14/13 11:06 PM

thanks on support :-)
I need a bit help from you too.

I wanted to make it comfortable so I made it wide and large. Distance from center to center of the pedal is 430 mm, and pedals itself are a bit shy of 120 mm. That makes total width of 545 mm. It is wide enough, but is it too much ?
Posted By: komemiute

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/14/13 11:10 PM

I'll check on my body-type and let you know.

BTW I live in Friuli for a long time and LOVED Croatia! biggrin Big FAN!
Posted By: WalterNowi

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/14/13 11:11 PM

Nice work! Good luck with this endeavor!
Posted By: PropNut

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/15/13 02:33 PM

Great design, well implemented.

What is the material that you used?
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/15/13 03:02 PM

Material is some sort of HPL (High pressure laminate). The one that I use is made for applications in boat interiours.
It is difficult to work with on CNC but since I work with this material for years I found a way :-) I use all same thicknes becouse it's made from offcuts from other jobs. So I glue two together were needed with some special glue.

Material properties ... about 30 % weaker on impact than aluminium, but it's more elastic than aluminium. To achieve same characteristics as aluminium product I simply use a bit thicker material. It is similar to bakelite. While core material is black I use white or grey surface in production.

To be safe and for testing I built pedals too strong. It weights 5,5 kg. Now I am trying to reduce weight to be under 5 kg.
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/15/13 08:11 PM

Whatever the material is, it gives a very nice finish to the pedals.
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/16/13 07:18 PM

I like the design,construction and concept. They look very sturdy and solid.
Posted By: choowy

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/16/13 09:59 PM

That is a work of art!! Would look sick in the grey finish. Well done. There's all sorts of building options open with that material and your CNC.
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/17/13 12:35 PM

Originally Posted By: milan_croatia
Thanks. I need to perfect this one first, then, i will make same additional pedals cessna style and F-16 / boeing 747 style... it's ment to be easy to exchange. Hight of this rudder from the floor is also already suitable for cessna too.
- after all that I'll see gimbal design, but only If it's possible to implement force feedback :-)


milan, I loke how you think smile
A few things:

-neat idea, I could see these replacing my saitek combat pedals.

- in for force feedback gimble. biggrin. For what it's worth, , the communiy needs this far more than it needs pedals. Not that your pedals aren't awesome though. There are decent commercial pedals available ( loke the saitek rudders) but we havent had a GOOD FF stick since the microsoft wingman. Further more, theres a market for $500 sim controls like this, as evidant by fanatec racing gear and the thrustmaster warthog.

-the saitek combat rudder pedals feel like a good width to me. Im away from home at the moment, but specs should be floating around the internet.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/17/13 12:47 PM

I'm glad you like it. You encourage me to finish it sooner :-)

True, there are lot of possibilities with this material and my CNC. However, this material is not suitable for all. I also machine aluminium on my cnc when necessary. But it takes longer and aluminium is more expensive per kilogram. So I can build some aluminium parts on places where I need to reduce thickness of material and retain strenght.

I started with rudder pedals becouse I needed one for myself, and there were no good option to buy one. Simped's stoped production...and they lacked of precision anyway. Cheap ones I didn't want. Only reasonable option was a russian VKB or BRD. Those I truly admire. They build solid and sturdy product. Only thing is the looks, It's too many bolts and nuts all over the place for my taste. I guess it's becouse I produce fine furniture for living and I've been hiding screw's and making products look and feel solid for too long to accept that design :-).

So I built my own, first model just to see how usable this material is. That was probably year and a half ago. While my first try wasn't realy something :-) It gave me many answers. Material is realy sturdy. Doesn't show any sign of fatique even on very thin profiles. It's low wear too. It can't be used for sliding elements as there is too much friction. I sucessfuly machined teflon and polycarbonate for that purposes.

I used this material as a spacer for multiblade machine. I also used it as a plate between saws on multiblade machine. It's still holding after one year, and that machine cuts few thousands meters per shift :-) It only showed clear signs of wear...about few tenths of mm where wood is passing under pressure rollers. And that is not much. Even casted Iron shows signs of wear on that place.

So material is more than suitable and tested for purpose, but only if used properly...right thickness, orientation, machining speeds and feeds etc. That information I will keep for myself :-)

UPDATE to rudder pedals :

I recived few different bearings and definitely decided not to use Y bearings. Just to let you know if you're thinking of using those in your projects they are not suitable for axis as they have too much radial play which is not good. But I'm still gonna leave those bearing for brakes becouse they have other qualities and can be good enough for brakes with proper calibration. It also alow me to use hall sensor for brakes becouse there is no metal near it and it's smaller than magnetoresistor.

I think I have right bearing for main axis too...but I'll tell more after testing. I'll be building new prototype next week and we'll see. There are some small glitches that I'll be sorting in that prototype too.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/17/13 01:40 PM

to "AggressorBLUE"

Saitek rudder are good for general use. However, if you want a product that will truly last and give you more realism then you don't look for that product. I don't know how precise saitek rudder are, probably 10 bit, measuring 1024 positions. Mine will be 12 bit 4096 positions. Saitek rudder use potentiometer. it's not questionable that they will wear out..it's just a matter of time. Hall sensor or magnetoresistor don't have contact and tend to last, well, forever :-). Also, by looking at reviews on youtube I see saitek rudder has some play and don't look that sturdy. On saitek rudder you can increase tension strenght but that increases return to middle resistance too which is not realistic. That's why I didn't implement dumping element in my rudder.

I don't know what are saitek width dimensions but I can see that it's not enough, not to comfortably hold your legs.

In my design, as you can see on pictures, there will be nothing but floor under the pedal surface. It's not important for this Me 109 look alike pedal style, but it is important for combat style and cessna style becouse your legs will rest on the floor...not on the plastic surface like saiteks.

Only thing that my pedal is short of...true realistic dumping brakes. That's expensive and complicated to implement so I decided not to. I simply decided that brakes are not that much important. So I made them function correctly and to require reasonable force to apply brakes for home simulation use. If I opted for true realisam, and I've flown a few types of aircraft, than I would need dumper for brakes that is twice stronger than centering spring. And force feedback motors instead of centering spring so pedals strenght adjusts according to airspeed, propwash, etc. That is only a dream for the future :-)


For a force feedback gimbal design... I think simulation community is not near that solution yet. Mechanics are no problem but electronic devices and drivers are a true problem. Implementing motor and gears, maybe even belt driven motor is not problem. There are accurate DC motors and servos for DIY CNC building. So it's only a thing to make a proper electronics and damn licencing fee.

Milan
Posted By: f15sim

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/17/13 02:18 PM

Have you thought about just selling CAD drawings for the rudder pedals and maybe a hardware kit?

That would allow people to have the parts cut locally and would save a ton on your costs.

g.
Posted By: MudPuppy

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/17/13 02:50 PM

Milan, just to add my congratulations on a great design and all the best on further refinements. The design looks very sturdy and I imagine it will stand up to some long term usage.
Regards,
Derek
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/17/13 03:32 PM

Gene, it's honest question. But I didn't think about it. Firstly, Cad drawing is not worth selling, I would rather give it for free.

Here's why your Idea wouldn't work :

1. It would be difficult to find this material localy. Buying it at retail price would also be expensive.
2. It would be difficult to buy proper bearings localy, retail price also more expensive.
3. Your local machining company would probably charge you for 3,5 hours machining time...+ there is special glue you need to use, also expensive in retail. I thought of selling it as a kit, but glue for this material would cost you 25 eur for 20 grams in retail.
4. Machining file is not only a 2d drawing...it's not cutting metal. There are a lot of precisely machined pockets in material that are very significant. For example seat for bearing is machinet to precision in hundred of milimeter. Machining is science for itself. If you machine too slow or too quick you will not get the same dimension of the hole, diffecence can be even 0.1mm this causes bearings to have play or wear out quickly. I know one thing too, every composite material is a story for itself. Every time I test new material I need a day at least to find out suitable machining strategies for that material so I can get a good finish, cycle times, accuracy. So your local machinist shop can have knowledge and machines to do the job, but it won't be fast or cheap.

As a furniture producer I have a lot of good suppliers and decent input prices becouse of quantities I buy. My plan is to use that strenght of my company to deliver excellent product for more than competitive price. My profit from this pedals is that I sell you expensive material that I cannot use anywhere else..becouse it's small dimension offcut from other jobs. If I had to buy composite for pedals alone Price would probably be 350 + eur.

After all that...it's shipping that's left to sort out. I'm currently trying to reduce some weight so pedals could ship in less than 5 kg. That makes a lot difference in cost :-)

Shipping costs for europe :
Express air D + 2-5 days ( internet tracking)
5-10 kg - 51 eur
2-5 kg - 45 eur

Premium post air D + 3-5 days ( tracking guarantee only till it leaves Croatia)
5-10 kg - 41 eur
2-5 kg - 35 eur

Economy mail trough land D+5-7 days ( no tracking)
5-10 kg - 36 eur
2-5 kg - 29 eur

For rest of world it takes longer 5-10 days express and premium up to 12 days, economy 12-21 day. It's also more expensive too.
Example for America's it costs
express 5-10 kg - 85 eur
2-5 kg - 64 eur
premium 5-10 kg - 68 eur
2-5 kg - 45 eur
economy 5-10 kg - 57 eur
2-5 kg - 38 eur

For rest of world it's like for America's + cca 20 eur.

You can see now what worries me. If it's package under 5 kg I think it's a reasonable shippment cost. For europe it doesn't matter much, but If it weight's over 5 kg it's costly to send.

I'm working hard to deliver this product to you at reasonable price :-)
Posted By: f15sim

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/17/13 04:24 PM

1. The composite material could be substituted with Baltic Birch. It looks like your composite material is 18mm, which is easily obtainable in the US. You could laminate it with Formica to give it a similar look and increase the wear ability of the pedals.

2. McMaster-Carr probably stocks them. They stock things I never knew existed. biggrin

3. If you switch to Baltic Birch, you could build a kit for less and it wouldn't require exotic adhesives.

4. This is the "don't try to teach your grandmother how to steal sheep" part, but you don't know the kind of insanity I'm usually up to, so I'll only tease you a little bit. smile Let's just say that I'm http://www.f15sim.com very http://geneb.simpits.org aware of http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll what you need in order to CNC machine things. biggrin biggrin biggrin (http://www.youtube.com/f15sim) *laughs*

I think your design is very well thought out and very cool. However, being the stingy jerk that I am, I cannot resist cost-reducing _everything_. smile I really like the extensive use of socket head screws. It gives it a very nice look.

You might want to consider offering a "pro" version made from the exotic materials and a "consumer" version made from Formica laminated Baltic Birch. Either way, I wish you great success with this project - it's very cool.

g.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/17/13 05:00 PM

Nice projects Gene. Respect :-)
I've seen some of your projects already. Printing machine is excellent job.

While I can make it from birch, I can make it from steamed beech too, I have plenty of maple which is even better. I also have multilama thin cutting for multilayered parquet production, flat press and vacuum press. So I can make laminate maple for excellent product. Still, I think noone will buy it as it looks, wood :-). Another thing is accuracy in wood not as good etc.

What you call formica is actualy HPL - high pressure laminate...papers glued together where glue is 40 % and paper is 60 % of the material. It comes normaly in 0,8 or 1mm thick with melamine surface in some color. It can be also solid core - same color as melamine for the core.

My material is actualy similar to formica, only stronger resign , more paper to get thickness :-) You can get formica in greater thickness too, just it is strong only longitudinaly by looking at the board lenght. In my material paper is oriented 45 degree to another paper....just like glueing carbon. Therefore strong in both directions and less prone to cracks...

It's less than 18mm thick, but glued two boards are more than 20 mm :-) I won't give you correct thicknesess, sorry.

I understand your need to get everything cheaper, I do it too. As you can see I actualy wanted to bring these pedals for 200 eur, but it is impossible for these type of peddal and material.

I'll finish design and make new prototype next week and then I'll know exact price. I'll probably stick with magnetoresistor for main axis which is more expensive than hall sensor too. I think price will be 250 eur +- 10 eur + shippment and VAT. You've got to admit that that is excellent price for that product.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/22/13 05:57 PM

I hope you don't think I'm away. I work on a new prototype as much as I have time.

So this is so far :

- magnetorezistor magrez ( Gvl 224 producer ) sucessfully tested.
- leo bodnar BU0836 A sucessfully tested on hall effect. Still testing various magnet sizes to get more resolution from smaller angle.

I've made a testbed for a new bearings design and it works excellent. We'll see if it's this good when assemled in prototype.
I've made lot of small modifications which should decrease total weight...hopefully enough.

I am currently working on new CAM and spring design...sorting out small glitches from first prototype. This one is giving me a little headache as I want nice and smooth movement, force too increase properly at specific angle...but I also need to recalculate every time forces acting on a CAM shaft, bearings , spring lenght ... aaarhg. plus it's not symetrical :-)A lot on work there but I'm getting it done.
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/22/13 07:50 PM

Thanks for the Headup. I appreciate all your efforts in making your own Pedals and even planning to sell them in an affordable pricerange.

Thank you.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/27/13 12:57 PM

Thanks Lausbub78 and all other supporters.

I present you rendering of hopefully a final design. As I wrote before there's been a lot of changes.




Most important changes :
New Cam design
New main shaft / bearing, rugged and no play at all.
One more possible adjustmant of pedal - look closely to screw which hold pedal pads in place :-)
- reduced width of pedals, still 13 % wider than simpeds
- reduced pedal rotation, but it's still cca 15-20% longer than simped's
- more comfortable spring adjustment position
- Brakes strenght adjustment by multiple spring holding holes ( not seen in picture)
- Rotation limiter now in parralelogram, not in camshaft anymore - so stronger and better look too.
- Y wing shaped support board - now from composite too.
- hopefully reduced weight to 4,3 Kg (calculated) - should fit to shipping under 5 kg :-) !!!!!!
- some parts are slightly changed to speed up machining process, but I don't think you'll even notice that.


Some parts are missing on this picture, I didn't bother about that.

Procedure now :
1. I go produce this prototype, so wish me luck.
2. Testing pedals myself, if everything ok then...
3. Croatian simulation pilots testing pedals, also testing against saiteks and simpeds. Hopefully video review and comparison on saiteks and simpeds too.
4. Starting sales is predicted by date when Croatia enter European Union ( 01.07.) That's my wish, but It will be tight.

Best regards to all you simmers

Milan
Posted By: davidred

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/29/13 01:11 PM

well, i was searching for weeks for someone who is making exactly this!!!hall effect rudder pedals...so you have my word on this one...i will buy these as soon as available!let me know when you are ready to ship them! biggrin
Posted By: pato_mareao

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/30/13 06:56 PM

If you get to turn your digital blueprint into an actual & outstanding set of sim pedals, count on me to make you earn a well deserved profit thumbsup and on spreading the good news all over the place at once. beercheers

Ah! And a good dose of luck with your/our hahaha prototype.

pato.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/31/13 08:47 AM

Thank you on your interest. Prototype is almost ready, should be ready tomorrow. Then I'll post pictures of finished product.

New Cam is behaving superb :-)
All components weight 4.66 kg. With some luck it will be under 5 with packing. If not, I will make some decorative cutouts in the base board. I tried to avoid that becouse machining cost me and this material wear the tools too much.

I feared that this baseboard won't provide enough support but it's fine, just right.

Controler with magnetoresistor need to be produced for certain angle - resistors on controller are different. Controler that I have is made for first prototype, and rotation angle on second one is smaller. So It's not actualy reading 4096 positions but cca 3400 positions. It's still excellent accuracy.

Brakes I didn't connect. I haven't made a shaft for brakes yet. I need to make few small testing shafts with pocketed holes for magnet. I need to make a few so I can test different magnet sizes and rotations of magnet in relation to sensor so I can utilise most possible resolution and linearity from hall sensor for brakes. This is what I intend to do today and tomorrow morning. Then I will make final shafts and fit the pedals and post pictures.

For davidred, pato_mareao and all others interested:
While prototype will be ready tomorrow, and I can start production tomorrow :-) I want to make shure that pedals are up for a long time beating. I kindly ask you to be patient for cca 1 month so I can be shure to provide not only best product, but reliable one too.

If anyone else want to pre order please contact me on private message. It means a lot to me - so I know how much component I need to order to start.
regards
Milan
Posted By: davidred

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/31/13 01:46 PM

take all the time you need milan...for the time beeing i will just keep flying with my ch-rudder pedals...
1month is pretty quick, so now worries.
one question about the feel of the pedals...
do they have a center detent like all other commercial pedals like ch and saitek?
and one question about the F16 or Cessna style pedals...will these modifications only be the foot plates and still the same pedals?meaning will i be able to just order F16 foot rests and screw it onto my pedals?meaning are they compatible and exchangeable with each other?
cause although your pedals really look superb, i prefer more the style of F16 foot rests, where your heels remain on the floor, and you push the pedals only with your toes and balls...

oh and btw, i became aware of your project due to a friendly member on the DCS forum....he said hes a friend of yours and sent me the link to this thread.thats the only reason i registered here...
so if you are interested in making profit out of your excellent project, i suggest to make it puplic on more sim forums just like the DCS one.though im sure you already thought about that!
cheers mate!
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/31/13 09:57 PM

From what I can see it would be a relatively simple job swapping the centering cam for one with or without a center detent. It might even be possible to machine it so that it can be turned around for both options, but there might be too little space between the cam and the pedals pivot. If the cam goes all the way around the pivot perhaps it could be shaped so that by loosening the screws it can be spun 180 degrees for the alternate mode of operation? Another way would be to swap the cam and idler bearing position, making the idler bearing move with the pedals and cutting the cam in the sprung arm, and making the arm reversible with separate cam profiles on the two sides.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 05/31/13 10:47 PM

I rushed it to finish today, and cut my finger a bit. 2 stiches, enough to keep me out of work since I can't use that hand for a while. I'll be back in workshop on monday to take pictures for you with old foot plates on. So you can see 95 percent of a finished design.

While I can't do it myself now...my brother will jump in to finish new shaft for foot plates so I can test and send pedals for others to test it as soon as possible.

Brandano, thanks on comments. I did all of your thoughs in my design. First Proto had a cam which could be just turned 180 degree to get another profile. This second prototype, just as you predicted, can not have it that way becouse I put different bearings so there is not enough space. I could put the cam further from pivot center but that makes it bulky and gives totaly different profile. Also I though about swapind cam and bearing but that makes it bulkier too. Also you will notice that I changed the cam shaft arm which holds the bearing and a spring...totaly. I did that to equalise vertical forces acting on that arm, I think you'll understand when you see.

So, conclusion and answers :

1. CAM profile is exchangeable on 2x screws. I will deliver 2x CAM profiles. Becouse of principle behind centering, like brandano explained, one CAM profile will have center detent. That center detent is not realy clearly noted as in other pedals...it's rather a curve where bearing has a loose seating. So, when flying, you know you are +- 2 to 3 degree from center, but you don't have a fealing that you "hit" into something when you change direction from left to right.
Second profile I deliver will have no center detent at all, but, when flying, you will not know where the center is...only by the force of a spring you will know it's near. I know how to make that one, but I didn't do it yet. First one I prefer and I think I made it fine.

2. F16 and cessna style pedal style will be only foot plate modifications, but may also require pedal shaft replacement. In any case It will be aviable for a separate purchase - that was main principle in desighing the pedals - to be able to swap pedal design quickly.

Whole pedal shaft with foot plate get's loose on only one screw.
I made a quick calculation for you. The more expensive option is if you need to buy F16 style foot plates with shaft,spring and magnet on it. It will cost between 35-45 eur for a set. Of course, If I can make it so that you only change foot plates without changing shaft I will, and it will cost less.

3. I will publish on other forums too when I finis. In a meanwhile you are free to recomend it yourself :-) I will probably put some simple website too. I think I know what friend of mine you reffer...hopefully he will have some beautifull things to show to the community really quick. I just gave you a hint, I belive you will be delighted :-)


regards
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/01/13 05:22 PM

Please rest your hand for the time it needs to recover. From my own experience I know it's not a good Idea to work full power shortly after such an injury. It may get even worse.

Best wishes and get well soon.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/01/13 06:53 PM

thx, lausbub78, don't worry. my bro will do the work, i'll sit and enjoy watching him work
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/02/13 08:26 PM

I promised you pictures, so here they are

Two things first :
1. Foot plates and shaft for foot plate is old, I'll send pictures of new separately becouse new shaft is not finished.
2. You will notice some damage on main axle. This is becouse I glued the screw and needed to break that bond to readjust the magnet :-(...it's only visual thing.







Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/02/13 08:33 PM

Foot plates exchange pictures...for the future...this is what is needed to change Me 109 style and replace it for example for F16 style pedals
I will post a video of exchange process when new pedal shaft is finished.



Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/02/13 08:46 PM

Angle adjustment
Uscrew first screw


Unscrew second screw


It's a night shot HTC phone crappy picture, but you can see there are angles engraved so you adjust by rotating pedal to desired position


One pedal at 62 degree and another at 20 degree, without brakes applied...so it is necessary to repeat angle adjustment on another pedal.


Here you can clearly see the difference, but also four holes for brake strenght adjustment


Right brake fully applied..you can see 20 degree difference between left and right
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/02/13 08:57 PM

New place for adjusting spring strenght ...really easy and no ugly butterfly nuts :-)


Adjusting pedal spacer from the wall. In general, it is good becouse depending how deep is your table you want to put pedals closer to your legs, or further. It might also be necessary to adjust becouse If someone want to use low pedal angle so pedal edge don't hit the wall when in full deflection and brakes applied :-)


New VS old peda design. Redesigned to reduce weight. Pedals are not reduced in lenght at all. Also You might notice new one have adjustable swivel angle on upper screw. Only two screws are needed , other two holes are just for simetric looks :-)



That's all for now.
Hall sensors give me more headache than my injured finger :-) When I resolve that I'll post videos and publish pedals precision numbers.

I hope you like it like I do.
Milan
Posted By: Paradaz

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/02/13 09:53 PM

Looking good, very impressive. I'm definitely interested in a set of these.
Posted By: Fulipso

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/03/13 07:17 AM

fantastic work mate
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/03/13 12:21 PM

That spot where the surface finish came off looks perfect to place a sticker with a nice logo on. Just saying...
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/03/13 07:40 PM

Thanks on comments, and Thanks Paradaz on his interest

For the sticker, I think I will engrave my brand on pedals...just...I don't know what is that brand...I don't have a clue. I want some good cool name. And I kind of like the place where surface came off.

I am a first tester now :-). Still not happy with the hall effect resolution I got from sensors but will start testing to see how everything else goes. I will build a testbed for testing various magnets and magnet positions in relation to hall sensor, but I have one month to do so, and mechanics need to start testing :-)

Milan
Posted By: davidred

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/04/13 09:26 AM

hey milan!
the more you post about your pedals, the more it is apparent, that these are really professional built pedals!
anyway, to fix my current pedals in relation to my chair, i use a similar method to this:



maybe you can use this idea as well?
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/04/13 10:36 AM

Davidred, I thought about that problem a lot. Well, your KISS solution is well. Onfortunately it's not feasable to put a big chuck of MDF in packing and ship it around the world. I thought why would any healty person pay extra shipping cost for that kind of stuff when they can built it localy, cheap. You go to any furniture shop in the world to cut a piece of MDF for you and make a hole by your measures...it's cheaper to do than to ship around the globe.

Velcro doesn't work either, as you might know. It was included in delivery with simpeds and works only on carpet. I tried it too. It can work only if you like low tension spring position. In my pedals you can adjust much higher forces and becouse of that it's not suitable.

So I decided for a simple and in most places effective solution. The way I see it there are desktop simmers and cocpit simmers. Desktop simmers mostly put pedals under the worktable - which is positioned against the wall. Cocpit simmers use cocpit of course.

For desktop simmers I made an adjustable wall spacer ( look for my posted pictures). It's ment for setting distance against the wall and I think it's enough for most desktop simmers. If your desk is really deep you can simply use something to make more distance from the wall.

Cocpit simmers mostly have know how and tools to screw it to the floor, and who know what else they might do with it :-)

So this is simple and covers most of the users, and I know it's not gonna work for everybody. So others will have to find their way of fixing it, like you did.

Cheers
Milan
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/04/13 10:56 AM

Hall Sensors

I am currently playing a lot with those. Brandano I followed your link too, as well as Gene. I read a lot and find some implementations used in robotics.

I will publish my hall design and my findings when I finish so others can benefit too. What you can expect to see is 1x magnet...probably 20x5x5 mm with polarisation thru 5 mm.

Magnet is fixed in a shaft in a way that it's passing thru center but not centered..it has an offset from center.
Sensor is also offset from center.

In general it+'s a combination of magnet pass by and rotation. Magnet is still rotating over the sensor but not thru center of sensor.

So far I achieved this :
Sensor reading thru full 0-5 volts ( using full resolution) on cca 65 degree of roatation. In this concept sensor's reading degree of rotation can be fine adjusted by using more or less magnet offset from center, but with magnets I have smallest angle at which the sensor read full resolution is cca 65 degree.

Also, noone mentioned this anywhere, but it is obvious that full resolution is obtained with magnet very very near the sensor, less than 1mm. Further the magnet is away less resolution you get.

I didn't use flux concentrator at all as I can accomodate bigger magnet in my design.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/04/13 11:32 PM

Finished design photos

my New VS my old ones :-)


All the same but foot plates and foot plate shafts are new. Means that sensors and magnets are installed nice :-)


I finaly tested in simulator on ROF - DR1 :-) In my opinion - superb. I think I deserve some rest, proper simmers rest - flying :-)

BTW hall sensors are set up in a way that for any pedal angle you adjust you have a linear movement and cca 1000 positions reading for brakes. I could make more but signal was not linear or noisy...so I concluded 1000 positions for 20 degree braking is enough. That's MSFFB2 resolution - for brakes :-)
Posted By: davidred

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 09:16 AM

milan you are of course right,....shipping that wouldnt be a very logical solution!
and i didnt want to suggest that you implement that in your design...i totally forgot to mention, that this will be my method of fixing them...but a bit different...what i am right now doing with my ch pedals is, that i have a wooden plate, where the pedals rest in it.so i cut out a negative form of the plate of the pedals.so the pedals touch the floor, surrounded by the wooden plate.so no tuck tape required...and i as well cut a hole into the plate, where the wheel of my desk chair rests.so everything is fixed together...

with your pedals i will try a different approach.in your design i cant yet see it, but im sure you have/will implement screw holes, to fix the pedals with the floor or a plate!?4holes on the bottom plate of the pedals would/will do it.so that i could just screw them on a wooden or maybe even metal plate..

oh btw, 1000 points of resolution for the toe brakes!yep more than enough.i have to live with 255 points and a lot of spiking on the rudder axis for now! biggrin
same for the brakes....so definitely a big improvement for me.

do you already know what the resolution of the main axis will be?the rudder axis itself i mean...
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 11:11 AM

yes, i will make four screw holes

resolution on main axis is 3800 positions. it is also contactless sensor but magnetoresistor, not hall sensor. it is supposed to be better and it is well tested so i start with that

while controller support 4096 positions i limited it to 3800 bcouse sensor depend on input voltage and it is a bit different from pc to pc, so i wanted to make shure pedals can work on usb input voltage from 4,7 to 5,2 volts...plug, calibrate, and play

I tested pedals and that resolution is more than enough.
Posted By: recoilfx

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 11:43 AM

Hi milan, what is the dimension of your pedals? I have a pretty tight space for rudder pedals width wise... only have about 18 inches...
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 12:25 PM

pedals are 51,7 cm wide - cca 20,4 inches.

this is width when pedals are adjusted patalel...0 degree swivel angle on foot plates

also, when rudder fully applied total width is reduced cca 4 cm

I'm really sorry that pedals can't fit for you, but pefals are made to be comfortable while playing
Posted By: recoilfx

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 02:23 PM

Oh darn it.. Are you willing to sell parts? smile I have my own parallelogram structure, pedals and circuit board, but would love to have the base with cam profile and and hall sensor mounts.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 02:30 PM

Sorry recoilFX but it's not that simple :-(

For cam profile to work correctly everything need to be just right, including the parralelogram rotation angle, paralelogram size...etc...I can't even mention it all.

Hall sensor mounts are on brakes only. Magnetoresistor is on main axis and it is integrated in the circuitboard.
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 02:52 PM

Maybe you could make a "compact" version with narrower arms, or with additional bearing mounts a little inboard of the existing ones? It seems like the base would fit, and spring tension adjustment would probably take care of the increased centering force. The range of movement would be reduced too, obviously, but the precision should be unaltered? On the plus side it would mean less material used and a lighter shipping weight

[edit]
I realize that the pedals as they are, are ideal for the typical fighter plane, with either a central control column or a central console. but a set of narrower pedals will be just as comfortable for people using a flight yoke or a sidestick with no central console.
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 03:10 PM

Isn't it possible to use the 2 outer holes on the Footrests to mount them,so the Pedals come closer together? This would make the width roughly 4 or 5cm smaller if I'm not wrong. But I'm not sure if the Footrests would interfere with other parts though.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 04:36 PM

I flew a few hours last night and few hours today...Pedals feel just right for me.

When flying in shoes lenght of foot plates is good as well. If flying in socks or similar there is plenty of lenght even if you have some big foot size.

As far as width goes...I adjusted swivel angle on foot plates to most out position and width is now 55 cm total.

I wouldn't touch the paralelogram anymore that's for shure. Simply said it require recalculating everything. For example smaller parralelogram will mean less rudder deflection...so to compensate i must enable bigger rotation angle...that's a buzz becouse i already enabled big angle. That would require new controller board with different resistors to count that angle for magnetoresistor. Also cam profile and arm need to be reshaped to accomodate different angle. Spring would feel different strenght too, so I will need a bit shorter spring, and I already made all calculations on this one.

Not to mention that despite all calculations it might not work good, and this prototype work perfect :-). So if it ain't broken - don't fix it.

Whole story about these pedals are comfortable width, precision and many options to adjust just right settings for yourself. Narrow little pedals you can buy at CH and saitek.

Following lasusbub78 comment. It is not possible to just switch the holes. I'll explain .
- foot plates have hole which holds the spring, it cannot be moved too much around.
- foot plates, as they are, cannot go over the spring becouse this type of spring need some space to expand - contract while braking.
- there is not enough space to put on another set of screw holes.

What might be possible is :
- Make another 2x screw holes roughly in the middle ( 2,5 cm from existing) - we get 5 cm total width reduction. For that I will need to make another type of fixing of spring- on shaft that holds pedal. i will also need to cut of pedal on the bottom side to make space so it can go over the spring.
- Design foot plates to be less wide. I think I can make it Total 2 cm narrower without damage to looks and feel.

So we get total 7 cm width reduction ..total width would be 44,7 cm - or 17,6 inch.

Should I really go thru all that pain and redesing so people can have adjustable rudder width as well ? I don't know will it work now, but roughly I think I would need to make foot plates less stable too.

I'll think about it a little more, but I don't think I'll do it.

BTW : total weight with USB cable is now 4,716 Kg. I need to find a proper box and make a second cam profile so we'll see. If I need I can make a few "designer" holes in the baseplate to reduce weight a bit if necesary, but I think I'm on track.


What worries me really is bending of cable for brakes. It fit's nicely but I don't know how long will it last. I'm trying to find a different way so cable can bend more comfortably. At least I will feel more comfortable :-) What's the use of long lasting hall sensor if cable start to make trouble. I'll think of something as I always do :-)
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 04:56 PM

I like the wider Pedals,as I have a centermount Stick. Though I propably will have to modify my desk a bit more,make it like 5 or 6 cm wider to the right. But that doesn't bother me at all ,I have modified the Desk a lot already to get all my Flightgear where I wanted it.^^

I just thought it might be an "Easy" way to adjust the width a bit. Of course in theory everything is easier than in realtity.^^

Really looking forward to get a set of these.

yeah
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/05/13 11:10 PM

I made pedals to be just right width for most. Other producers reduced that width for easier transport. I made pedals to be unscrewed on one screw...so transport is no problem as foot plates will not be mounted, but separated from base for transport purpose. And it's easy as 1 2 3 to assemble.

As a furniture designer and producer I know that most spaces designed to fit human legs is no less than 60 cm...like desk for example. We make tables to always fit a bit more, at least - so an office chair can go in that hole as well.
Cocpit builders should have space too, I think they would like it even better as there is always some central console no matter if it is a sidestick or gimbal in the middle.

So your "can't fit" statement confuse my senses and logic. How the heck is that possible :-)

Future sim pit builds and desks for flight simulation better be prepared for my pedals. I want them to be a new standard, legend since the day it's produced. I want when simmers think of quality pedals that my pedals are first thing that cross their minds, and a last thing too :-)
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/06/13 08:32 AM

Well, there are a few cockpits where the footwell is quite narrow. Gliders for example. Or homebuilts with side-by-side seats. I am quite sure that the clutch and gas pedals on my car are not 50 cm apart either. What I was suggesting was not to redesign the entire cam arrangement, but just allow the pedal support arms to be mounted closer to each other. Then it would be up to the user to choose between the more proper wider setup, or the narrower, stiffer, shorter movement range one.
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/06/13 12:25 PM

As for the brake wiring, that's a rather difficult problem to solve. In my pedals I use a short length of stereo cable (three conductors, exactly what I need for the sensors) that I have run through the sleeve part of some old shoe strings, and I left them in a wide unsupported loop over each joint. This gives an acceptable look, but it will eventually break. it might be opssible to use a stereo jack for each joint, but the sliding contacts will introduce noise, that might cause more problems than it solves. I think the best option would be to cut a few lengths of coiled stereo cabling (https://www.google.com/search?q=coiled+stereo+cable&tbm=isch), 5 cm or so for each joint they have to hop over, held in place with zip ties. It seems to work well enough for steering wheel stereo controls on cars.
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/06/13 03:12 PM

Originally Posted By: milan_croatia
As a furniture designer and producer I know that most spaces designed to fit human legs is no less than 60 cm...like desk for example. We make tables to always fit a bit more, at least - so an office chair can go in that hole as well.
Cocpit builders should have space too, I think they would like it even better as there is always some central console no matter if it is a sidestick or gimbal in the middle.

So your "can't fit" statement confuse my senses and logic. How the heck is that possible :-)


I'm not sure if it was meant to my Post above,if not please ignore this one.^^

You're of course correct,the room for the feet under my Desk is around 70cm wide. More than enough space for any Pedals. Though I don't sit directly in the center of the Desk,I had to move more to the right side because I have a CH Throttle quadrant and the Throttle of my Hotas on the left side and the Desk is directly to a Wall to the left so I just had not much options than moving my seating position more to the right. That way my Pedals are very close to the outer right wall of the Desk. But I can easily modify it to have more room.

Please don't have the impression that it was criticism to your Design. I really like the wider pedals and the design and mechanics in general. As you have said,there are enough Pedals already that are closer together.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/06/13 05:01 PM

@ Brandano
- Yes, I use that cable, called "mic" cable. It has a proper shielding and good flexibility. I have two joints and wasn't happy with one of them. Simply I needed to make it visible becouse I couldn't make nice loop underneath becouse spring would interfere. I disassembled complete pedals today so I think better and I found a nice way. I made a nice hole in the underside of front arm so cable has a nice loop now. I used a hot glue gun to seal the place where it enter the material to the controller - becouse that's where the cable is weakest - on the connector. I think It will last, hopefully 10 years. I have some similar cable joints on some machinery and it's still good after 10 years so.

Onfortunately nothing last forever, so I think after 10-15 years user will need to replace the cable for brakes. It's not a big deal but makes me sad as I carefuly picked other components to last. For example I pick the bearings that will should never experience fatique if force does not exceed 38 kg.

WIDTH
I really like the width of the design, like I said, just right. I decided not to touch it for now. We test pedals and start selling, I'll make small series of 5 pcs. So I'll wait for customer feedback on width. Pedals will go thru proper testing anyway in Croatia. This prototype is about to take a journey around the country for simmers to try, simmers who already own saiteks, simpeds and CH. I'll see what they have to say about width...among other things.

@Lausbub78
No wrong impression, don't worry. Even if you really don't like the design I would't mind...Everyone has right to like or dislike and I will never have anything against that...as far as truth is being spoken and no bad intentions :-)

Watch later for some new pic, I think you'll like some small improvement that I'll post later when I assemble it back.
Posted By: davidred

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/07/13 06:34 AM

so you use hall effect sensors for the brakes, and magnetresistor for the rudder itself?

sorry my ignorance, but whats the benefit of using magnetresistor instead of hall sensor?

btw Milan, dont forget to really inform me once you are ready to sell them! biggrin

PS: oh and btw, i created a thread on the DCS forum with a link to this thread....to spread the word(hope you dont mind)
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/07/13 01:36 PM

Ok I post pictures of what I think is a final product...if design goes thru testing well.
I put MSFFB2 nearby so you get some size perspective.

Let's see how careful you looked at my design. Two things are new. You tell me which ones :-)




To davidred : Don't worry I will contact you. I count on your purchase and will contact you when testing is near finish.
Magnetoresistors are really better than hall sensors. How much in practice, I see little difference. Mainly it is beter becouse it has less interference with other magnetic fields etc. Also linear output, more accurate and responsive, less noisy signal etc. It is also possible to adjust reading angle...different resistors on board. In hall sensors it is done by reducing voltage reading for let's say from 1 to 4 volts instead of full 0-5 volts...so you see full resolution but you clearly loose some precision. I will start manufacture with magnetoresistors but will continue to experiment with halls to see the real world difference :-)

Thanks on spreading the good news. I'll soon start to spread the news to wider audience myself :-

Milan
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/07/13 02:46 PM

One thing that has changed I know for sure. It's the Ring where the Screw to fasten The Footrests is. It's made out of aluminium now. The other change I can just guess. It's propably the cable that now is fit below the front rudderbar.

Edit: I think I now know whats the second change is. It's not the cable,but you used some black screws instead of chrome ones. :o)
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/07/13 08:49 PM

On target :-). Cables are not new, but can be seen a bit becouse I made a bigger loop so they will last longer :-)

Few reasons on aluminium rings for brake limiter :
Smaller ring without sacrificing strenght, as user can put great amount of pressure on that part. So I have a peace of mind if someone want to torture my baby :-)
look better too

I've put some black screws that I had in workshop, onfortunately I don't have all needed dimension at the moment but just to give me a feel on looks. What do you think, do you like it. They nicely blend in a black and white design, that's why. I'm just sorting out last pieces of a puzzle :-)
Posted By: davidred

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/08/13 08:31 AM

hey milan!
dont worry, you can count on my purchase!
the market is really lacking of high qualitiy rudder pedals...CH and Saitek ones are only of "average" quality, and still use pots.their resolution(at least ch ones) are kind of a bad joke, and therefore precise rudder inputs are impossible.so they somehow force you to add curvature settings, which i really want to avoid.i prefer to have linear input, which is not possible without bad spiking near the center with my ch pedals.
your pedals on the other hand, not only use a better technology under the hood, but also the hood looks way better...from this thread one can see that you really have put a lot of effort in design, and also the material seems of high quality...so i see this purchase as a last investement for rudder pedals.they look like they could last forever.and if they serve me 10+ years, im happy.

btw, i really hope you you put as much effort in packaging them, so that they arrive healthy to the buyer.it would be a shame if the pedals got somehow damaged during shipping.
but again im sure, you find a good solution!cheers!
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/08/13 10:44 AM

Black screws would look better in my opinion,but thats more a case of personal taste. Shouldn't be much of a problem for anyone,if he doesn't like the black screws,to exchange them with ones he likes better.

BTW,you can count on my purchase aswell. :o)
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/08/13 04:26 PM

Davidred...using curvature settings is a thing of preference. Despite the precision I also added slight curvature in ROF, just to keep me more precise around center. I any way experience and accuracy are improved a lot, but you need to get used to full linear settings. It all depends on simulator and a flight model implemented. In real plane pedals move linear but plane response is not linear at all. So your settings will depend on simulator, plane that you fly and personal preference.

I like black screws too, but will see which ones to implement.

Some real pilots tested pedals and their impression is excellent. Intresting all of them wanted a bit loose spring setting and liked a weak centering feel. Speaking that no center detent is not necessary. Many think that pedals deflection is too long...not unpleasent but more than realistic. Braking deflection also too long. I knew that's true but I think for flight simulation it's better to have a bit bigger deflection, mostly for shooting accuracy in combat simulators.

Pilots include cro army pilatus PC9 and Zlin instructor, and old legendary Croatian test and army pilot who is retired now. Few PPL pilots.
I am still waiting for other friends to test. One is Captain on Dash, another fly airbus A320, another is Mi-8 pilot and Bell pilot in croatian army. So far so good.

I am mostly waiting for a fried who has Simpeds F16 to make video review and comparison. Hopefully I'll find someone with saiteks too.
Then I start selling.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/10/13 05:45 PM

Now while testing is in progress i am sorting out some last bits. One of them is a brand and a model name. I would like you to give your comment on this one too. So what do you think about :

MSG Crosswind Master
MSG stands for Milan Simulation Gear

Possible also
MSG Bullseye
MSG GustMaster

Full company will be
Šimundža & Co
MSG Department

I thought also to use "SIMAIR" as a brand...Like my surname Šimundža-air. But I think it's SIM is used extensively and kind of worn out word, despite its a short word for my surname.

Posted By: Volans

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/11/13 04:25 PM

Good work! I like your design, looks like a long lasting device and using magnetresistors is a plus. I belive that you should let more people to test them, and after that pick a suitable 'name'. I (personally) dislike long and colorful names, I like only MSG (Mark I).
Keep up the good work,if I had not already my own home built pedals I would have definitely considered yours
Posted By: recoilfx

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/12/13 02:21 AM

Well.. MSG commnonly stands for mono sodium glutamate (atleast here at US), not something that people associate positively..
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/12/13 11:04 AM

I wondered why there is no such brand already. Now I know :-) Thx recoilfx.

damn, finding a proper name is harder than building it
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/12/13 11:23 AM

Maybe Šimundža Simulation Gear

Šimundža SG

SSG Crosswind Master

Šimundža is my Surname. I wonder how bad and hard to pronounce it sounds for you. I work with Italians a lot and they mostly break their thung trying :-) kinda funny. Our furniture company logo looks excellent
SG
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/12/13 12:52 PM

While testing I am still upgrading my model so here are latest news :

- Cutouts in a baseplate - finished...now definitely under 5 kg with packing :-) problem sorted
- New seating for spring for brakes - now in shaft ( before it was in foot plate). Now pedal style change Involve only foot plates change. So it will be cheaper to by F16 style - as it will be without shaft, spring and magnet :-) You can also easily acomodate your own , for example if you have worn out simpeds you can use their aluminium F-16 plates - just drill two holes for screws :-)
- New cam design. Now it has a clear sensed center, but it's easy to "slide" over center. The thing is, I'm still not happy with it so it's not finished. But this one goes to testers too so they will decide.




Other news...
While I tested the baseplate to see If I weakened it too much I found glue braking point. On right side of parralelogram vertical surface which hold the foot plate and shaft is made of two composite pieces glued together. Well glue started to give up upon 60 Kg vertical impact on that pedal. As you can see everything is still in place as it did not give up completely. I could add two screws there but I think it's more than enough becouse 60 kg impact will never happen and I am certain not vertical but angle forces up to 40 kg on each pedal can happen.

So strenght is good.

- I also modified wall spacers - screws are not sinked in anymore as I think it is unnecessary weakening that small pieces.

Also, after many considerations I decided to reduce the width a little. So little that comfort will not be in question and more people can make the fit. I cannot reduce more, so sorry for people who still cannot fit. New dimensions are

Total width - 49,5 cm ( with 0 degree pedal inclination angle toward the outside)
Center to center distance - 39 cm
Foot plate new dimensions - 29x10,5 cm ( usefull lenght 28 cm)

BTW testing on existing prototype are very good so far
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/12/13 03:04 PM

You could use the Company logo with your name in it and add "Flight Gear" instead of "Simulation Gear". I like the letters of the Company logo. Maybe use the letters in another colour and with another Background for the Simulator products....something more related to planes or helicopters and stuff.

Sorry I can't give more inspiration. I'm more comfortable with technical and mechanical stuff,designing and the like is not my strength.^^
Posted By: Paradaz

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/12/13 06:06 PM

Looking like a very professional set of pedals there......I'll definitely be looking to buy a set of these.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/12/13 07:08 PM

- I forget to tell you that baseplate got a bit wider to add more stability when using strongest spring settings

Thanks on your interest Paradaz. Make shure to check this thread until I put up a website - that will happen as soon as I definitively decide on the brand name :-)

"Flight gear" is good.
This way I could use MFG which sounds better - Milan flight gear. I hope that doesn't mean something bad, again.

Šimundža & Co FG is also good, but a bit too long. Company logo will be there but I want to have something short.
Posted By: AndyB

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/12/13 07:23 PM

How about this for the logo ?





Cheers,

Andy
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/12/13 10:39 PM

Hi Andy. Welcome to our little conversation
That's really awesome. You are really helpfull. I presume you like MFG then.

I think everything can stay nicely like that, but I should change those colors to be more like aviator gear, and also to distinguish from furniture business.
Posted By: AndyB

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/13/13 01:09 PM

HI,
Yeah! I think MFG is sort and snappy (nice short website name if you go down that route too).

I'd go with shades of grey\blue for the new colours as those are associated with the military and avaition.

Best of luck for the future.

Andy

PS as an ex aircraft engineer I can appreciate the design and manufacturing work gone in to your pedals. Very nice design!
Posted By: AndyB

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/13/13 02:55 PM

Hi,
Had a bit play with it in Photoshop:




Cheers,

Andy
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/15/13 12:11 PM

That's awesome Andy. Thanks for helping me out. I like the colors now and I think I will go that route. I'll meet next week with our designer who made company logo, website and stuff and present him this solution. It's really good to have your help in hand Andy, as no matter how good designer is - he's not a flight sim enthusiast like us and don't know right Font and colors to put in like you do - so this is really a good start point for web.

As for the pedals, I finaly made a proper cam. Feel is just awesome and realistic. Spring does the centering, but there's no centering feel when you cross center. Strenght is properly increasing from middle to the end of deflection. I have easily adjusted spring settings to simulate cessna 172, 182, Antonov AN-2, Piper Super Cub and Citabria feel. I flew some other planes but too long ago to remember how rudder feel like. Helicopters I never flew so I'll give it to real pilots to see what they have to say. Bell pilot told me that it's really loose in bell. Mi-8 pilot told me that it's very hard feeling and behaviour similar to plane. My father also flew Mi-8 in army , back in 90-s and told me the same- very hard feeling and that It has some button on stick to apply hidraulic pressure on rudder to get it easier, otherwise it's so hard that it will be impossible to fly. Hard thing about this is that pilots don't study it - they fly. So they don't know how much KG of pressure they need to put to apply rudder so only way of knowing is to make cam profile and give them for testing and rely mostly on their senses and feel.


The bad : I've tested this cam profile too, and while it is realistic it require strong force to apply full rudder. Generaly it's good for Civil sims as you rarely apply full rudder and you need realism as much as possible, but I think it's not to good for combat sims as you apply rudder in small quick movements and more often so you want it a bit more loose and precise than it is realistic ,right ? Please give your opinion on this dillema !!!

I will make one more CAM to have less proportional strenght increase, which I think will be more suitable for combat sims, and give both to testing to Croatian combat sim community.

P.S. I am still amazed how much differene CAM profile brings to pedals feel. Every profile feel like a new set of pedals :-) Amazing.
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/15/13 12:36 PM

As much as I prefer realism my self,it's not always a good idea to have it at any cost. If you really need a lot of force to push the Pedals it propably can get very tiresome when flying for a longer time. And you have to think on the people using Chairs with wheels also. With a higher force the chair propably will slide backwards more easy.
The springforce of the Simpeds I find about right. It's not too soft to feel loose and not too strong to be uncomfortable. I don't know if you have Simpeds to compare and of course it depends on personal preference.

In some cases it just has no benefit to simulate the real thing,and in my opinion the strength of the Pedals is such a case.

Edit. Though it should be easy to replace the spring with a weaker one if it's too strong for individual persons. You just can't please everyone with every detail.^^
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/15/13 05:34 PM

As you know In my pedals it's a higly adjustable spring. You have a spring tension adjustment and two spring positions...so it's easy to make it weaker or stronger. The thing is with this new realistic cam If you make it weaker for the end of deflection than it would be too loose in the center.

I agree with you that It shouldn't be full realistic at all cost. It's a must to be comfortable for simulation use, and then to be as realistic as it can without decreasing comfort. On many areas I somehow make piece with these two opposing requirements, mostly by making pedals full adjustable. This spring is also like that. I will make it close to realistic, but ty decreasing spring force and putting spring in cam position 1. you can make it more comfortable but still not too loose around center. Then I will also deliver different cam with slight centering feel and also adjustable strenght by means of spring.

This is also a proof of concept that in future I can make full realistic cam and spring for specific plane as an extra cost option and make it cost more than material :-) and earn some money on people who really need this for professional use :-) Such customers can also make their own profile or so If I provide drawing and calculatio base for it. There are a lot of possibilities but I'm focused on general use now.

Edit : I forget to tell you one thing. By streching spring you don't have a linear strenght increase, that is major problem in designing CAM. So cam, besides being asymetric, must have that spring strenght irregularity implemented. If I strech a spring too much it will not return to originating lenght or might get loose with time, so this is also a factor in choosing spring. So it's most difficult on pedals but I'm getting on a goal.
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/16/13 09:21 AM

Well, with an ideal spring the force the spring applies is directly proportional to the distance it is stretched. But I realize that there are no ideal springs. Probably it would be useful to write a small script that, given a curve for displacement/force for the pedal and a another for the spring generates the cam profile to get the two to match.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/16/13 10:17 AM

I made 3x different springs for these pedals to test. Slightly different diameter, number of circles, wire thicknes. And then I also used different materials for the same spring :-) None of them behave like proportional strenght increase. What's the total streching distance is also a big factor. It's hard to explain so I'll explain like this. Let's say total streching distance is 60 mm. Streching it to cca 35mm has a proportional strenght increase. Then behaviour changes from 40 to 55mm. Well, it's still proportional, but it's less increase in force than it is for first 35mm. Than again last 5 mm it's again more strenght increase. I try to incorporate that in a cam to be more linear strenght increase with as a deflection goes.

Note that with adjustable spring strenght I am actualy adjusting starting point for spring streching - therefore changing spring behaviour trhuout the cam movement. So I make cam little more universal instead of perfect.

I made an excel table with all factors to calculate spring streching upon every pedal deflection angle. Then I incorporate it in geometry to get a cam. I made 2x cams for last model which was wider and now I made 3x more. I will probably make 2x more to get it right to deliver 2x good cams for the end user. Every time I make a cam I make it on CNC and test it. Rapid prototyping :-) Now I clearly see where I want it to strech differently and based on parameters of all 3 already made cams I easy make 4th cam which will be little bit more tight in the middle and little bit more loose at the end than 3rd cam is.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/18/13 07:53 PM

Finally CAM 4 - a perfect curve for my taste :-) Now I don't think we will need a spare cam, but will let testers decide.

CAM specs :
- no centering feel - no "bump" you need to overcome, nice soft feel no matter if you use weak or strong spring settings.
- first 3 % of pedal deflection is very weak strenght - then next 10-13 % of deflection is a bit steeper strenght increase, and the rest is linear strenght increase with deflection (Note : this way even without centering feel you know when you are around center, but it is non intrusive so you can still make all fine rudder movements)
- Full rudder deflection doesn't require so much force like before, it's 90% of true aircraft behavior, strenght reduced for home simulation use.
- It is now possible to use chair with weels if spring is adjusted to 30 % strenght or less ( Most likely settings on these rudder will be around 30-50 % spring strenght. Less is for people who like it loose, more is for people who persuit true realism.


P.S. Past few days I was amazed how my shooting accuracy improved with CAM3 - no center feel on ROF -DR1. But, sometimes I really didn't know if I was applying rudder slightly to the left or to the right - in the heat of a dogfight. Now with CAM4 I have the same accuracy, even better as full rudder deflection is easier a bit, but I also know when I am applying rudder to the left or right when around zero rudder deflection. That's why I did a profile like that and I think It's really something you will like.


Now, back to my final worry...cables
I am really thinking of doing it something like on this picture. The bad : cables can are visible. The good : Big cable loop so cables will last longer, Now I predict more than 10 years of moderate to heavy use. Also, Connectors will be user acessible so cables easy to order and replace if they break. I think this is good as cables are cheap, can be sent to you in envelope or you can even easy build it yourself without any soldering or crimping

This cleary has more pro than cons, but BIG question...is it too ugly ??? Please leave your coment on this!

Posted By: Volans

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/18/13 08:40 PM

It's not very ugly, but it will break the general look... such a nice and smooth finish... and there a pair of ugly wires. My advice is to find another solution, even if not so durable.
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/18/13 09:04 PM

They look fine to me, but I have my own pedals (that look much uglier) that suit me fine, so it's not me you have to sell them to. Two alternate solutions I can think of are: you could run two short lengths of coiled wire to two posts on the bottom frame, and then run the wires from there in slots to the electronics box. Or you could run them both in two parallel loops doing an entire loop around the front pivot, loose enough that they won't get stretchet at the extremes of the movement. This last solution could even be enclosed within a vac-formed plastic cup to hide the wires out of the way and avoid them getting tangled with the centering mechanism. How did you get the wires to run around the pedal pivots? Do you need three separate conductors for each sensor or you can run all the signals through 4 wires (positive rail, ground rail and two signals)? In this last case you could also consider using old wired telephone handset cables, crimped with rj11 connectors and sockets. Analog signals are not as susceptible to disturbances as modulated or digital signals.
Posted By: choowy

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/18/13 10:11 PM

Nice work, I"m not sure from the pics whether the cable has to flex or not but if it doesn't and you need to just run it back from stationary sensors I would run the cable straight down to the base through a hole in the main body and then embed it in a trench which you could fill with black silicon. That way it would be hidden completely. Hope that makes sense. The groove or trench could be cut into the base when cutting the main sections.

If you are using hall sensors mount the magnet on the moving arm and the sensor on the stationary base then you should have no worries routing a cable.
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/18/13 11:30 PM

The rudder sensor is stationary and nicely hidden under the base. Those two cables are for the toe brakes
Posted By: choowy

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/19/13 01:01 AM

OK thanks Brandano makes sense now, I'm not too familiar with anything that fly's.

OK another option which gets a little more complicated would be to go through the center pivot point and have a hollow shaft that the cable could exit down below to the base that way the cables aren't flexing hardly when you move the pedal back and forth. May need to incorporate a small cover piece where they enter the top of the shaft as side entry may be difficult. You could have the cable hidden under the back support arm then enter the hollow shaft from the side if there is room.

Without knowing exactly how the system couples together now I don't know if its possible to incorporate such a hollow shaft, it will be a little larger diameter than current, but hollow so weight should not change too much. Just use a larger outside nut maybe. Probably sounds crazy.

What if you route them on the other side below the cam assembly, at least then its harder to see from where you would be sitting. Use a single coiled cable that splits and incorporates both switches.

It doesn't look too bad now but as Volans says it is such a nice clean look now, pity to see the cables if you can avoid it.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/19/13 02:29 AM

Thanks for trying to help :-) That's why I posted here in a first place. It's a pitty I will not show complete design inside out so you could really understand and help, but you can think a few reasons for not posting that details yourself :-)

Choowy, If you look at the cam picture I posted you will clearly see some wires on each side...that's becouse last two cams are smaller and there's some free space now in this prototype's front arm. Long story short what you suggested I already tried...in fact It was designed that way.

I use GVL224 controller now with magnetoresistor on board and magnet on main pivot axle. That's for rudder - bulletproof. every brake has 3pin wire for itself for much more stable reading, shielded cables too.

As far as cables... you tried to explain to me something what is common at any motorcycle today. Well, they pass signals in much more raw way than hall sensors do. I'll put it to you this way...you've probably used a microphone which works nicely when cable standing still but if you strech or bend microphone cable you hear some "whooo" sound, noise. Well controller see that noise as some spike from cables. That's gonna happen when cables wear out. They will work, but spiky.

Funny thing is that I made this problem myself. When desighning the mechanics I achieved much bigger rotation angle than standard baloo style pedals - for let's say equal deflection travel my pedals rotate 80% more around main pivot. It's good as it's more precise rudder reading, but it's bad for cables as they travel longer :-(


What do you think of this :
1. Put cables back under front support arm
2. Make as nisce loop as I can so cables last long
3. Make bigger hole where cable goes inside upport so connectors can be unpluged without taking apart whole assembly
4. Connectors on both sides of cable
5. Deliver spare set of cables to the customer for easy - no soldering exchange when first ones goes spiky
6. Use standard 2.54 pitch connector so it's easy to get anywhere in the world.

Also I would make it possible to buy as a spare part...send in envelope for couple of euros

Note : I did think about telephone RJ11 connectors. Onfortunately I can get only some cheap female RJ11 which are bad..ones that can be soldered to the PCB. Also RJ11 is much bigger than 3pin 2.54 pitch connector and hard to put thru the support arm by end user. Also standard telephone cable is 4 thinner wire - no shielding - more noise on signal and will break more quickly.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/19/13 02:03 PM

I decided to start production with visible cables. simpeds had it, vkb has it and so will I.

on the other side. I Will usr hidden cables myself so if they last long I might change my opinion.

I need to make product bulletproof, no gamble... and visible cables give 5 times more durability, i guess.

It wont be so ugly like in my pics but it is going to ruin the design a bit. cables are in a nice safe place so i think its good to go.
Posted By: JAMF

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/19/13 09:26 PM

You could consider creating cable channels, so the future owner could decide to let the cable exit front/back/left/right.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/19/13 11:41 PM

That's hard as even I can't decide properly.

It can only go from the back as left is spring, up front is cam. Right side is free.
I don't want support plate to look like a swiss cheese anyway. Why do you think end user should decide that. It's gonna be under the table or something anyway so you won't admire the details much while you fly...they must be sturdy, accurate, long lasting, adjustable. Pretty design is a plus, but not at the cost of quality....no no, not in my eyes


P.S. I just realised ...pedals already have much swiss chees characteristics :-)
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/23/13 04:52 PM

I got one Question about the surface finish. Will the surface on the Footrests wear off or even peel off over time because it's always in contact with the feet moving on the surface? I think I've never saw the material you're using although at work we are using a lot of different materials. So I'm just curious.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/24/13 11:14 AM

You are worried becouse what I did to main screw :-) Don't worry. Main screw was glued with extremely strong glue, and I had to pull it apart and crashed surface by a really brute force.

Maybe you didn't come across material I use, but you did with surface finish. It's HPL laminate in white commonly used all over the world on places with high wear contact. For example - in boat interior for worktops, small table tops, some medical equipment, wall coverings, you name it.

There is no sharp edges either - all bevel edges.

In order to take white surface off you will need approx half hour with 150 mm diameter orbital sander and 120 grit paper. I don't know if this means anything...but it won't wear of at least 15 years, that's least of my worries :-)


Anyway testing doing fine, 2x produced samples behaving like designed - excellent.
I'm still waiting for a man with simpeds to test mine...but he's not available till 10.07...so I decided to wait with production model untill all tests are finished and everybody happy.

In a meanwhile I do other preparations - packing stuff, logo, website, paypal, some legal mumbo jumo - since Croatia is about to enter EU within a few days it's a mess. So I know it should be customs free to EU customers from 01.07 but I don't know how to make international bill yet...with tax or not ?! EU Customers pay tax to me ?? Others pay their tax on import ??

Warranty !!
Pedals will come with 2 year limited warranty. Limited means that if something goes wrong I send replacement parts and instructions to replace. I think that won't be necessary - ever, but need to make some policy about it. Do you think this is OK ?

2 year becouse I can't take all the risk for unlimited time, and two year is more or less standard these days. As time goes by, and everything goes ok I might increase warranty...since I don't intend to have warranty claims, hopefully, not at all :-)
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/24/13 12:51 PM

I think that two years is mandatory by law in Europe, though I am not sure what the terms of the warranty should be. I think it will only cover production defects, and should naturally exclude any wear issues. That said, for a short production run, made on order, like this is, the European guidelines might not even apply.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/24/13 01:59 PM

You are about right. Nothing should go wrong.

I am shure there will be no wear defects, or design flaw :-)

I will limit forces used up to 40 kg per pedal, 80 kg on base mechanisam...that's just fine. Operating temps are roughly speaking for shure -20 to 80 degree...I don't think that would be exceeded.

So I'm left with possible defects in material, faulty bearing or imperfections in composite cousing cracks, or my defect in production. I don't even think these pedals can be damaged by impact in transport.

So faulty bearing I will resolve right away, and any cracks can be clearly seen from user pictures if they are from too much force or a defective material...since stress cracks leave nice marks like carbon fibers...easy for me.

On top of that...I made shure I have enough room over design limits by making it stronger...so even If one bearing is not operating just right there are two or three others too take a hit...still within limits. Even if material has some internal defect it's hardly to break since it's made so sturdy.

As for wear...if you look my pedal sliding principle in old pedals...and they show no signs of wear after 1,5 year...then I don't know what would couse this design to wear. Only real wearing element is CAM, but who knows after how many years...and will only show slightly different spring characteristic...so you tighten a bit more and that's it.

On top of that, I'll put in warranty that I will provide spare parts something like 10 years from day of payment.

I made an ugly cabling now...but that should last too, and can be replaced.
My controller supplier confirmed 2 year warranty...he has more than 100 controllers sold over more than two years and say he has no complains :-) So cheers to Baur BRD :-)

So I think I covered this subject, and end users can be happy too.
Posted By: Baur

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/25/13 04:16 PM

Originally Posted By: milan_croatia
So cheers to Baur BRD :-)
Please - I'm happy to help colleagues! smile
For two years WE produce pedal BRD-F. WE sell them in Russia for self-Assembly.
Therefore, you can not worry about the electronics. In the worst case milan_croatia you change it under warranty.


Posted By: f15sim

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/25/13 04:17 PM

daaaaaaamn! That's nice! smile

g.
Posted By: Baur

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/25/13 04:18 PM

Now milan_croatia will enable You to buy excellent pedal wink I want to congratulate him on his excellent idea. And good luck!
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/26/13 01:09 PM

Thanks Baur on your support.
Like I wrote before I really admire Baur work...pedals and gymbal and all others.

P.S. You probably misunderstood..I didn't worry about electronics...I just told everybody that you use it for a long time without complaints so nobody has to worry :-)
Posted By: Baur

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 06/26/13 06:19 PM

In General electronics capricious "girl" smile the Main thing is warranty service!
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/07/13 05:50 PM

This is hopefully production model. I'm done with all revisions and they work just right for me. I ship those tomorrow to a Simped owner with camera :-) So we will have youtube review and comparison soon. After that I start sales and small production, so wish me luck.

Revisions are not much, slight modifications on foot plate and arms to reduce width a little, base plate is a bit wider to be stable on strong spring setting and agile movements, added screw holes in base plate fo fixing to the floor, my logo, adapted new cabling design which works excellent and doesn't look that ugly at all. Edges are a bit more beveled so pedals are comfortable with a bare feet.

I hope you like the logo and the name. This might not be finall look but it's near.

Pedals price 250 eur + VAT + shipment. 2 year warranty, 12bit high precision electronics, contactless 3x sensors
Pedals come completely assembled, plug and play. Only foot plates are separated. Every foot plate is easy to screw with just two imbus screw which go with pedal...So contents of the box will be :

1. Assembled complete pedals base construction with electronics and all.
2. One set of foot plates
3. 2x screws for fixing foot plates
4. Spare CAM profile with slightly different centering feel.
5. Imbus allan key for fixing foot plates, making angle adjustment, exchanging cam profile, adjusting wall spacers, adjusting braking spring
6. Usb Cable 2m long ( 6ft).

I'll post some videos on how to make all adjustments and stuff.
Better quality pics and website will be on soon



Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/10/13 09:33 AM

I post here one pic in better quality so you get a feel of built quality and materials.
It looks like only BRD and I are presenting you with high quality material for your consideration. I wonder why :-) You do the math yourself.

Pedals are tested against simpeds right now, first impressions are that my are superb in all aspects, precision, ergonomics, adjustability, centering feel, braking precision and feel, rugged construction :-) Tester told me after all tests are concluded he will put a youtube review soon, within a week or two.

This was most important test for me...there will also be test against older simped vario and saiteks but that is no worry. This test against Simped F-16 latest model was what I was waiting to start selling.

I'll produce first few within 15-20 days and I am ready to take orders

Thank you all for supporting, feel free to watch my videos, please leave some comments and stay tuned.
Milan








Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/10/13 10:35 AM

Hi Milan

Congratulations on your finished product. I'm still about to order a Set ,as I said earlier. How will ordering work,is it via a PM here on the Forum or should we wait until your Website is ready?
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/10/13 11:27 AM

I am counting on your order Lausbub78. I will try to set up a website with paypal payment as soon as possible.

Until then you can order and make agreement with me on PM. You are welcome to contact me on e-mail too :
meanstreak@net.hr

until I set website with contact form.

Right now I am a bit tight on money as I spent a lot. Since now I am certain in my product I am confident to recive your money.
Plan is :
1. get a few first orders - so you make a payment.
2. I use that money to order some components that I don't have enough.
3. I deliver product to you in 30 days or so.


This is only to get me started, I hope you understand. Later I will produce and have on stock.

Anyone who want to buy and is willing to wait for first batch to be build please contact me on PM or email
Posted By: T}{OR

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/10/13 05:37 PM

The lucky bloke who was offered to test these reporting in. smile

Here is what I replied to one of the comments over at new IL2:BoS forum:

Quote:
I am currently testing this brand new model vs. my Simped F16, and can tell you that I prefer the MSG Crosswind pedals. They can be set up to represent the spring action on Simpeds (linear stiffness), and at the same time (my and builder's preference) to a more exponential setting (similar to what sim racers do to their brake pedals). This translates into much higher fidelity, as brain memorizes a required force much better than distance. All thanks to different cam profiles and modular lever settings on which the spring is attached to. Simpeds on the the other hand have a very distinct center (more of a bump). Because of this MFG Crosswing pedals allow for a more responsive maneuvers that require fast switching from one side to another. The center is there and you can feel it accurately, but it doesn't feel like crossing over a bump. Pedals will ship with two cam profiles, we are now in the process of selecting the best ones out of five the builder has sent us. I will be forwarding them to two more testers (as of now) once the review is complete.

The toe brakes are a story for themselves, and so is the crazy level or ergonomics which was IMHO Simped's (F16 model at least) biggest flaw. More on that when I put together a YT review and comparison.


In short: these pedals are as good as Simpeds, and then some.
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/10/13 06:08 PM

Ok, so I'm thinking I can be a part of the initial order as well. smile

That price is in-line with what others are charging for limited production sim gear, so for ~$350 USD (my guess with shipping) I think this is doable. My Saitek combat rudders are doing a decent job in sims like FSX, but aren't quite precise enough for DCS Huey or Rise of Flight.



That said, are the dimensions of the final product known? I ask because I'm looking to get a simpit (such as the Obutto revolution) down the road, and I'd like to know how compatible these would be.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/10/13 07:26 PM

As I wrote you in e-mail I wrote for others to see. I will open my website soon but until then here are the specs..

- best to watch videos to see what can be adjusted. Videos show final product and all adjustments, as well as package contents.

Dimensions - I made a quick dimensioning at 0 degree pedal angle...meaning when you set up minimum angle of 20 degree and apply ful brakes. Most of you will use more pedal angle for shure.

Sorry for deleting most of the stuff...I hope you understand I am trying to avoid someone get my hard work in easy way.



Other specs I send to you upon request
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/10/13 07:35 PM

Thanks to thor for sharing some of his experience before he post his review :-)

I really appreciate him taking this test as that "clash of the titans" is what concerned me the most, as I never tried simpeds myself. I was biting my nails while waiting to hear his first impressions and now....sweet as a breeze.

I will let him finish and write his independent review as it is supposed. I hardly wait to see that video
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/11/13 08:12 AM

UPDATE !!!

I follow some other forums where my Croatian friends put some links to my pedals. Watching how story goes i'm kind of supprised that someone might get opinion that I didn't think on everything.

I am also a bit sad becouse I hoped Sokol1 will make some comment, taking into account that I admired his words of recomendation in the past. I see on other forums that he is following this thread too. I might be acting like a child there, and since these pedals are like my child I take it a bit personaly.

SO THE FACTS :
Pedals modular design make it easy to adjust width to your needs. You see now that extra holes on foot plates are not just for looks :-)

This is my sketch of additional width adjustment plate, you can build yourself or If there are enought inquiries I will make it extra cost option for some small fee like 10 eur for set...just thinking out loud.

Normal overall width is 49,4 cm. With this plate it can be increased to cca 53,5 cm total, or decreased to cca 46,5 cm.

Edit : It is also made such so you can put your foot plate little up or down - cca 13 mm. This is made hany, and it's due to the fact that additional plate will increase overall foot plate height position from the floor.

Downside : By decreasing the width you loose foot plate swivel angle adjustment towards outside, but if you want to decrease width then you don't need it anyway.

Here is simple drawing :

Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/17/13 12:00 PM

Ready for preorder, feel free to contact me on PM or meanstreak@net.hr
Pedals will be ready for shippment 10-15.08.2013.

Website will be online soon - 1-2 weeks : mfg.simundza.com

Simped's comparison video in a few days, RoF ace will also make a review soon.

In a meanwhile I give you info I wrote for website and few more pics...

MFG Crosswind


Highlits

You are looking at the most advanced and versatile flight simulation gear that ever existed. Art of CNC machining at it's best , made with one purpose – fulfill all simmers rudder need and beyond.
- Built out of sturdy composite material, little aluminium , 17 bearings and all other real industrial parts that are more common on precision machines than it is in any gaming device.
- Unparralled precision, acuracy and feel due to the high resolution contactless magnetic sensors and most advanced pedal centering design
- Highly ergonomic and adjustable in more ways than you can think of
- Can be used for civil, combat and profesional simulation software. Made to be positioned in cocpit and under the table.
- Everything engineered fo long life
- Possibility to mount different foot plates as well as different profiles for centering feel
- 2 years limited* warranty ( limited* by means of spare parts to be assembled by customer)


Features

- Sturdy Composite material construction with some aluminium parts, 17 bearings
- Made by CNC machining to achieve highest acuracy
- 12 bit USB Plug and play controller ( resolution of 4096 positions for all axes). Compatible with Win XP/Vista/7
- Rudder axis : Contactless high acuracy magnetoresistive sensor ; True resolution cca 3800 positions
- Differential Brakes axes : 20 degree of pedal rotation. Reading by hall sensor with resolution of 1000-1300 positions.
- Approved to apply 40 kg of force on each foot plate ( In vertical, horizontal or combined direction. Pedals are tested on lot more, but safety limit is 40 kg)

- Centering spring strenght adjustment, fine tuneable
- 2x positions for centering spring – to achieve stronger or weaker force toward the end of pedal deflection while force near the center remains
- Exchangeable CAM profile to achieve different centering feel. Pedals come with 2x profiles standard.
- Adjustable pedal position from the wall – by adjusting wall spacers
- Four holes for fixing pedals to any base surface
- Adjustable pedals angle from 20 to 52* degree ( if pedals are set to 20 degree and brakes applied than they come to 0 degree. 52* - by raising pedlas from the floor angle of the pedal can be extended up to 62 degree)
- Adjustable 4x different strenght for brakes
- Adjustable foot plates swivel angle toward outside ( watch video)
- Easily replaceable foot plates with different style of foot plates. DIY friendly – you can make your own.
- Pedals include allen hex key for making adjustments and 2m USB cable for PC connection ( youtube assembly video)

Weight : 4.46 kg ( total with spare cam, usb cable, allan key for adjustments)



Posted By: Brigstock

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/17/13 06:54 PM

I really like these pedals, but the price point is too high for me. €300 delivered is more expensive than my Simpeds were. €100 less and I'd be onboard.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/17/13 07:31 PM

I think I didn't publish shippment options...here they are. These are currently best prices in Croatia. I don't know if there will be better options in the future or not. As I told you Croatia is 17 days in EU now, and nobody changed prices of transport yet.

For pedals price...It's normal you all want a lower price, If I were you I would too. Onfortunately, with technology the world have, it is not possible to achieve better price for this kind of quality. In fact, I am proud on my price and I think I achieved miracle in price/performance/quality ratio.

let's recap a few facts...
- we are testing against simpeds now to compare against sims "benchmark" pedals so far. I never had simpeds myself and I am eager to see that test too, but my strong belief is that my product is more robust, precise, adjustable and ergonomic than simpeds are...I will dare to say...better in any aspect...maybe on par in some less important specs.
- I will dare to say that no pedal in the world is better than mine. Maybe some can be compared, or they can say they use metal ?! But that does not mean they are better or stronger built. That includes pedals from 500eur+ vat or others costing more then I dare to write.
- I will dare to say that my pedals are best in the world in terms of adjustability and adjusting pedal feel to your liking. I can say this without trying others...becouse I've seen their mechanisam's and I know that can't be good as mine.
- I know many people would like but cannot afford my pedals. It's just like that. It makes me sad, but can't do much about it.

Posted By: D13th_Korn

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/18/13 12:44 PM

Beautiful product, good luck Milan in your enterprise.


Just trying to help, not to annoy: it's not imbus but inbus, better known in USA as Allen keys, correct term in english "hex key".
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/18/13 01:07 PM

Thanks. Your help is welcome - exactly what I need. Becouse I don't natively speak english and I'm not shure in some terms.

If you have any other suggestions, or think that I should write some sentences differently please suggest so everyone know what i'm talking about :-)

I changed in description to "allen hex key". I hope it's right now. Videos...I won't change that now...it's not a professional video.
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/19/13 02:48 PM

Also known as Allen Keys in the UK
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/20/13 10:20 AM

Rise of flight Thread opened by my first happy customer hq_peter_Zvan

For you ROF owners there's a nice video too.

http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=350&t=38253


Note :
As more and more pople try the pedals they show different preferences about cam profile.
As a result I will make one nore cam profile for first 10x customers.

New Cam profile will have less progressively increasing force toward end of deflection, notably to get a bit less strenght toward full deflection. Also, a bit stronger center than my CAM4. It will be called CAM6...so I will ship CAM4, 5 and 6 for first 10 customers.

Reasons behind this are pilots who are already too familiar with simpeds and other pedals linear feel and find the force toward the end too strong to be 100% accurate in ROF.
More centering feel is a small tradeoff...so you can fly in highest speed strait line without the need to concentrate about it, but still to retain accuracy of no center cam. I will have some hard time these days to achieve such feel around the center with a little more, but not too much center :-)

First ten customers are supposed to make their note about which cam they like and why. After that I will continue to ship 2x cams choosed by the customers.

Other cam profiles will be aviable on request for a small additional fee.

Milan
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/21/13 12:46 PM

Final contact, pricing and shipping data

MFG - Milan Flight gear

website soon : mfg.simundza.com
youtube channel : http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyk9CeHW6LyAysaXSbrfCNg
contact mail : mfg(at)simundza.com

Split, Croatia


PRICE :


Paypal : 259 eur + shipping from the table below
Other payment options : bank transfer, western union...with discount 3,4% on price and shipping ( that's how much paypal cost)
Shipping table :


Outside EU, depending on your country, you might have to pay additional customs and tax, which are not included in price.


One more nice picture for you
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/23/13 09:34 AM

One more technical post, while I still have time.

Last bit of this puzzle is electronics upgrade for my pedals. I decided to publish controller details here to promote excellent service of our ukrainian producer becouse of his excellent product and service.
If you have your DIY projects, specialy if you want to use sensors instead of pots I highly recomend.
His contact : gvl224@ukr.net

BRD electronics that was used in prototype :


MFG electronics, I just recived pictures, and currently waiting for those to arrive by post :-)




In general, both electronics feature the same hardware and firmware specifications. There is KMZ41 magnetoresistor on board for rudder axis, separate 12bit ADC for a clean signal, autocalibration jumper, trimmer pot for adjusting magnetoresistor axis middle voltage, and 2x axis for brakes.

So what did we modify for my pedals :
1. Screw holes - stronger holdown of controller becouse on old one USB plug was far away from screws.
2. USB plug from Usb B ( printer) to usb A - lower profile...use of USb extension cables
3. everything on controller made to "low profile"
4. Brakes axis position
5. Brake axis connector
6. Firmware - windows read 4096 positions, old one read 65 000 positions and I wanted to present a true positions
7. Dimensional change
8. Windows Name change, now it is "MFG Simundza - rudder"

So why these mods :
Low profile was necessary to integrate sensor in a proper distance from magnet. This gives me more resolution than prototype board.
I put brakes axis on the back becouse cables go out there now. I also wanted easy brakes cable exchange or unplug in the future...no need to disassemble complete pedals to unplug cable. For this reason there is a different connector, more common in sensors and end user cannot plug it wrong way...This is all made to be future proof...maybe you will need to replace worn out cables in 7-10 years, or some servicing need in the future...who know...this makes it easier.

For a firmware I think it is better to see true raw values than full windows resolution..becouse it's real values, and also becouse smaller numbers make it easier to adjust brakes deadzone which is necessary becouse of the way my mechanical buletproof sensor reading design works. Shortly...every time you adjust pedal angle you need to readjust brakes calibration - becouse sensor didn't move...only pedals did.

USB A was choosen becouse of low profile and easy to find spare cable if you somehow destroy original. Proto board used USB B printer connector...and spare cable for that one usualy have ferrite shield - becouse it's made for printer. It's not good for game controller purpose.

Posted By: T}{OR

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/23/13 11:07 AM

This above post will go nicely along with my review which will I am estimating will be some 15-20mn in length when finally wrapped up together. I've finished with my testing and video recording, together with audio samples that will play on top of the videos for clarity purposes. Unfortunately I will not have the time to edit and cut them properly into one file before Saturday. If all goes as planned, the review should be up this Sunday. No latter than start of the next week, in any case.

The pedals are ready to be handed over to a new test pilot. smile
Posted By: Rivet

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/23/13 02:34 PM

Milan, it's all been said before but I don't think any of us get tired of praise. I just want to congratulate you on your outstanding achievement. I have followed your thread here with great interest in the hope that you would be able to produce a top quality good looking final product - and here it is. I'm sure you are very proud of the final result and quite rightly so.

I have been looking for many years for some pedals of this quality, but everything fell short in one or more ways. There were some sets available but the price was way too steep for me. With your pedals, you should gain many happy customers and I intend to be included amongst those as soon as my next pay cheque arrives. I will PM you when I am ready to purchase, very shortly.

Once again I wish you well in your endeavour.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/23/13 03:37 PM

Thanks Rivet

My only sucess is among other skills I'm just a Pilot like you, and I knew what you need. I tried to get it to reasonable price and I've made it.

Your written intentions to buy mean a lot. I added you to my little list so I can plan my production better.
I don't know yet how much will sell, and I want to have pedals in stock for you, so you don't have to wait. I can't hold many in stock becouse of financial reasons, at the moment...that's why your info is much appreciated.

So, If there are others with intention to buy in the future don't hesitate to show your interest, best to send a mail, as my new official mail is already working

mfg@simundza.com
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/23/13 03:39 PM

Sorry, but is that an USB-A socket? That would mean having to use an USB-A plug to USB-A plug cable, which is non-standard and not as easy to find as a printer cable, or an USB-A plug to mini-USB plug, which is what you'll find on most low power peripherals.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/23/13 04:13 PM

Yes, it's USB-A female socket.

I'll ship USB A male to A male 2m (6,5ft) cable.

You are somewhat right, Printer cable, usb extension cable and USB mini cable are most common cables on the market. But while making decision I was considering this :

USB-B cable is made mostly for printers. Something like 90% of cables of this type have ferrite shield on the cable, notably, near the USB B male plug. This is bad. Cable has bad flexibility near ferrite shield...and considering the position of the plug on the pedals this is extremely bad. This plug was also problematic for me becouse of it's size...becouse I need a low profile electronic to make it fit to proper distance from the magnet.

I was left with USB-A ...mini connector I think it's too weak for this kind of product, doesn't have enough welding surface either.

USB-A standard Male was a good choice...becouse we could use USB extension cable which is good and common. But that plug tend to be bulky like a B plug, or some poor quality.

I ended with USB-A standard Female. Then I was in search for a cable. I didn't think it's common either...hell...I don't know what's it used for anyway. All I know that I drowe around computer and technical stores around my town and found it...in each shop I visited, with no ferrite shield. Then I opened e-bay and found the same...it's common enough :-)

So it is a bit tradeoff. It's not the most common cable there, but not too hard to find...and fits all other needs.
Posted By: Rivet

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/23/13 05:49 PM

Originally Posted By: milan_croatia


Thanks Rivet
Your written intentions to buy mean a lot. I added you to my little list so I can plan my production better.


Thanks Milan. I will contact you via your official email (mfg@simundza.com) instead of PM as I stated before, when I am ready to purchase. That should be Thursday or Friday next week all being well.

The excitement is building already whoohoo
Posted By: The_Winger

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/23/13 07:02 PM

Hey milan. Isent you an email today. I htink i would love to preroder some of those lovely pedals too. Please contact me asap with paymentinformation and shippingdate estimate.

The_Winger
Posted By: Baur

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/24/13 06:10 PM

Hi milan_croatia! I am very glad of Your cooperation with GVL224. I wish good sale pedals.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/26/13 12:24 PM

Thanks Baur. I wish you good sales too, and many happy customers. Russian community should be gratefull to you for design and quality at good price.


News :
Website is up : mfg.simundza.com
gallery is still not working , but it will be up in 3-4 days so check it out.

Small price increase due to paypal charges. This only show that I am a rookie in international sales :-)

IMPORTANT !!! - I will sell 4x more pedals based on latest price and shipping published here at SimHQ. That offer is valid untill 15.08.2013. This is my way to compensate if someone feel misguided by me in any way.

When fees are excluded my end price is the same...you will see in my shopping cart that now I offer 4,5 % discount on bank transfer and western union payment...customer pay transaction fees.

I publish here why I did price increase...this is what paypal charge me + 0,35 eur per transaction.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/27/13 05:30 PM

Thor just released his review video :-)
I won't comment it...I'll let you do it

he opened new thread here too
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3815062/Review_Simped_F16_USB_vs_MFG_C#Post3815062

youtube direct link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDfaV1zgBqU
Posted By: ImPeRaToR

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/28/13 05:25 PM

Great product Milan, will you be able to meet new orders in a timely fashion?
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/28/13 07:13 PM

Depending on the number of orders. I intend to have product in stock, but I can have only limited quantity due to financial reasons, at the moment. So If I get too much orders at the short time then I might end up "out of stock" for short periods.

My prediction is that "out of stock" periods 1-2 weeks long will happen a few times untill I "get a grip" on quantity community need.

UPDATE :
3x pedals still available for preorder.

After those 3x sold I will close preorder process for a short period.

Plan is :
1. To get preordered pedals shipped
2. Get response from buyers ( which cam they like, is packing sufficient, possible hidden obstacles in import procedure for outside EU...etc)
3. Recive money from paypal...check for any hidden costs there
4. Open website for sales again...from stock

I give you following dates for this "startup checklist"

preordered pedals will be shipped 10-15.08.2013.
In stock and free to buy from 05-15.09.2013 (estimated)
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/29/13 11:45 AM

1x pedals still available for preorder.
Posted By: BigC208

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/29/13 08:25 PM

Put in my order a few minutes ago. Looking forward to them in October.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 07/29/13 09:20 PM

Thanks BigC208 :-)

Announcment !!!!

Preordering process is concluded. I follow the plan now, get those shipped ASAP and reopen webshop cca 05-15.09.


I can announce that pedals will have serial numbering - engraved !!!

I didn't announce it before as I wanted to make first supporters proud. I understand their orders was a bit risky since it is not something they buy off the shelf, and all future buyers will have their experiences with me and it will be easier to thrust me :-)

So once again

Thanks to all buyers for thrusting me.
Thanks to all forum members for helping me, I will put those names on my website !
Thanks to members of Croatian Virtual Regiment Phoenix VARP, and all their friend for testing
SPECIAL THANKS TO DBSThor !!! For making such quality review, as far as I know noone did a truly Simpeds video review before. It's obvious he put a lot of effort in it.
Thank to all kind people for spreading the good news around the globe

SPECIAL THANKS to ROF pilot Peter Zvan, my first buyer, as he was the first to take a leap of faith :-)
Forgive me if I forgot to mention someone here. Your support and thrust made me push harder to make a great product for us all.

Milan
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/06/13 12:15 PM

grey color - there is one obstackle...i need to buy more quantity of material at once. It should be no problem in the future but this year and probably half of next year pedals will be only black/white.

combat/boeing style footplates are in development and possible others too. when will other foot plates be aviable depend on sales and inqiries...

sorry for late and short answer...i will be on poor internet for a few days
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/08/13 11:27 AM

Little FAQ. I publish here untill I have proper place for it :

When will pedals be available?
Pedals should be in stock and free to buy from start of october 2013, possible little sooner.

Do you take preorders ?

I will not accept payments untill I know exact date of shipping. However You can send me your order intention so I plan my production better. Sending order intention does not obligate you to buy !

What's the price ?
- 262 eur + shipping if you pay with Paypal - promo price. For bank transfer and western union you are granted discount of 4,5 % on total amount - but money transfer expenses are buyers obligation. This is due to Paypal transfer fees.
- I have the right to change the price at any time !!!. I know now that small price increase will be requied, but I kept this price as a promotional until I make a final price based upon all expenses.

Warranty ?

- I give my personal 2 year limited warranty. Limited means that I will send spare parts and customer duty is to replace possible damaged parts. Warranty claims need to be sent with photos or videos of the problem - so I can grant warranty. Warranty does not include mechanical damage caused by excessive force of over 40 kg of pressure on pedals...and similar excessive abuse of the product, electrical discharge on the USB electronics.
- I am obligated to provide spare parts for at least 5 years. If I stop production and can not longer provide spare parts I here obligate to publish my complete project so others can build spare parts too.

Other type of foot plates ?
Right now my priority is to start production with Luftwaffe style foot plates. Combat style (F-16/ Boeing) are in development but will not be available in 2013. There are some style discussion about those and need to go thru testing phase, that's why.
So, in the future, pedals will be available to buy with different foot plate style 100 % shure...Customer will be able to buy different style separately or to buy extra foot plates when buying pedals.

Grey or other colors ?
Pedals will ship in white/black color untill further notice. Explained : I think I would like my pedals in grey/black too. But to do that I need to order material in large quantity. Right now it's a problem since I don't know how much community need, and I don't have enough money for such investment. I will make a survey on my website so potential buyers can express their opinion and liking based on photoshop coloring of pedals. Then I will decide what color to use based on most user opinions.

Additional CAM centering profiles ?
First 10x buyers will recive 3x cam profiles. Their obligation is to make an opinion which 2 out of 3 are best. Future customers will get 2x cam profiles standard.
In future I will most likely develop more CAM profiles, depending if it is necessary or not.
Extra cam profiles will be possible to purchase with pedals, like an addon...or existing buyers will be able to buy separately.

Price of extra foot plates and cam profiles ?
This price I don't know yet. It's only speculation that CAM profile should cost cca 10 eur, foot plates I will try to produce in 30-40 eur price range for a set.

What if I don't like your predicted spring behavior ?

Spring mechanisam is designed in a way that every customer can get his own spring made. It can me smaller or bigger diameter, and shorter than original spring....extremely easy to exchange original spring with custom made one...or some standard off the shelf spring.

Additional width adjustment plate ?

I will publish my design and dimensions of such plate. Customer can make his own easy.
If there are enought inquiries for such plate I will make it possible to buy as a spare part.

I saw you noted that cable for brakes might give up after 5-10 years. What did you do about that ?

I have modified my design to make shure cables last as much as possible. Other than that I made shure that cables are easy to replace by customer. When, and If there will be a need for such replacment there will be spare set of braking cable available. It will be with connectors and Hall sensor - assembled set of cables...Predicted price for a set = 12 eur. Replacement will be 5 min job that 12 year old child can do, with a little help of quick glue and a screwdriver.

Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/18/13 10:15 AM

I finaly made all sets for my first customers. I also made CAM6 which I don't like :-(. I will try to modify it a little tomorow so I can ship pedals to customers with CAM 6 too.

Production was just excellent but so much time consuming...much more than I expected. I made production in many easy steps...but there are so many easy steps and every step takes time. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to speed up the proces.

Testing pedals went excellent. Precision is superb. For accuracy I kept old resolution on purpose....rudder 3400 positions, brakes cca 600 positions for each braking angle. I think it's enough anyway. More sensor reading produces nonlinearity on rudder and before I incrase that resolution I've got to figure out how to keep linearity. On brakes I just fitted the magnet 0,1 mm more distance from the sensor. This reduced sensor reading but kept linearity fine, also noise is reduced to only 1x position...and also since bearing for brakes has a little play in the bearing this magnet distance produces smaller error of bearing play - thus easier to calibrate correctly.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/21/13 07:44 PM

Preordered pedals all shipped...and in a meanwhile I finaly sorted gallery on my website and few other details.

You might notice that 262 eur is "promo price". Well, next batch of pedals are going to be sold by that price, but I already know that I can't keep that price in the future.

I calculated material and CNC time right, I just didn't calculate labor time right and a few other sideby expenses that gathered. I already made few improvements in my production to speed up some processes and I will see how much can I speed up in the next batch. Then I will determine final price. You notice that VAT is not included there, and I am still shipping those as "prototype for testing".

So probably big question is When will I build my next batch...sadly...I can tell you it will be later than 15.09.

- I have to recive money from the first customers which paypal hold for 30 days...and then put it on my account at the end of the month. Without It I can't buy all pieces for pedals, and when I buy parts It will take some time to come to me.
- I just shipped all pedals yesterday and I need customers to say their opinion on CAM's and their satisfaction and feel in general. Some of them choose economy shipping so it might take a while.
- I have a lot of private and business stuff to do in next 15-20 days.


So, there will be some more waiting for people who want to buy...sorry...I want to start slowly and to be sure everything is just right.

Milan
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/21/13 09:51 PM

Thanks Milan!

Looking forward to trying these out!
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/23/13 05:20 PM

Hi Milan,

I recieved my package Today. I'm currently preparing the Frame where I will mount the Pedals on. My first impression is excellent and they are very sturdy and really well built,no comparsion to either my Simpeds or my Saitek pedals. I haven't used them yet,but I moved them with my Hand and they are moving very smooth without any noises or scratching.

You wanted some Feedback on the packing. It sits very tightly in the packet,which is of course good as it should be. No damage or anything related to shipping and transportaion. It was a bit Hard to get them out of the Box,though I tried to be careful not to damage the packing stuff or the Box.
Propably it was just me beeing so excited. biggrin It's easy enough to unpack if you put the box upside down and pull the box up. Then the rest will slide out.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/23/13 08:59 PM

Nice to hear that.

My first batch of pedals are finding their way to customers and I can't tell who is more excited...me or them...probably me :-)

I sent all pedals 20.08. Germans recived today via premium post...Express EMS hit UK today also....and pedals already crossed borders of Netherlands, US and amazingly South Africa. I'm still waiting to see how long it takes to Australia :-)
Posted By: BigC208

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/24/13 01:00 AM

I'm looking forward to getting mine in the USA. I hope it makes it in before I leave on a 3 week vacation to the Netherlands on the 1st of September. I thought about sending it to family there, would've been cheaper. Having to haul it home in a suitcase was not something I looked forward to though. I looked at the tracking info today and it said it had been put in a bag in Zagreb on the 20th.....Ah well, it gets here when it gets here. Been playing a lot of RoF, Il2 and CloD so I can compare my before and after performance when the pedals get here.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/24/13 10:20 AM

I found this tracking site very usefull.

http://www.track-trace.com/post

It automaticly track in source country, but you can select destination country too - becouse destination country normaly give more updated info...so BIGC208 - track it via USPS and you'll see :-)
Posted By: Rivet

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/24/13 04:49 PM

My pedals arrived in the UK yesterday and are on the Parcelforce express 48 service. That means they should be delivered within 48 hours of processing. Unfortunately, apart from the fact that they don't do weekend deliveries unless you pay even more for the service, Monday happens to be a bank holiday, so no delivery then either.

Tuesday 27th is the earliest I can expect delivery, so roll on Tuesday! I will report back on the packaging as requested.

Right now my parcel is in a depot 111 miles down the motorway from me. So near and yet so far.
Posted By: Rivet

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/24/13 04:57 PM

Originally Posted By: milan_croatia
I'm still waiting to see how long it takes to Australia :-)


I can help you there Milan. I spoke to a friend of mine in Perth earlier and he told me that his pedals are awaiting customs clearance, so they have arrived in Australia today. smile
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/24/13 05:27 PM

Hi all,

I've spent all morning and afternoon with modifiying the Base frame ,where I mounted my old pedals at, to make fit for the new ones and also modified my Desk a bit.
Milan ,I hope you don't mind if I post 2 Pictures showing everything assembled and in place.




Assembling the Pedals was really easy,nothing to worry about when you know how to handle an Allenkey.It's done in like 3 Minutes. The real time consuming part wasn't the Pedals but my Frame and Desk. Took me longer than expected.^^ I wanted to do right right and only one time,so the Time was worth it.

Calibration went well too though the first time you do it you should read the Manual on calibrating carefully. If you know what to do it's really easy and done in 1-2 minutes maximum.

Currently I'm using Cam Profile 6 and I'm still trying to find the best adjustments for Pedalangle and spring strength. I need to get used to the stronger spring compared to my old Simpeds. Actually I like the spring of the MFG Pedals better,just a matter of getting used to and there are many ways to adjust them to your needs.

I did a few "Fly now" Missions in Rise of Flight in different planes,mostly the ones with a sensitive Rudder. It was like night and day comparing to what I had before. Aiming is much easier,the aim doesn't jump all over the place anymore. The stiffer spring makes overcorrecting less likely and the overall control of the Plane is more stable and harder to get into a Spin.

So far I'm very impressed by the quality and the performance and I'm glad I ordered a Set.

I have to mention 1 thing though,nothing really negative, what maybe could be improved. The 4 Screwholes on the Baseplate are a bit small imo. I tried to get a M4 Screw in,but these still where too large. I'd mount the Pedals atleast with a 4mm Diameter wood- or metric Screw,if someone mounts them to the floor of a Cockpit ,or like I did on a Frame or a Wooden plate. Propably any 3mm Diameter Screws would be enough, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/24/13 06:00 PM

That was indeed helpful Milan. Ill keep it bookmarked for the next product you decide to make wink

That said, Mine is now within USPS tracking, and is "inbound out of customs" in New York. My guess is I'll be unboxing by mid week biggrin
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/24/13 06:42 PM

Customer in Netherlands recived them too :-)

Yes screws for fixing them to some baseplate are a bit small dimeter. I did it becouse someone might use chipboard screws or wood screws 3 or 3.5... so the hole is 4mm diam...and socketed a little with 6mm.

In any case you can drill the material with drill for wood or metal...just drill and release a bit...like aluminium drilling..take it slow....to make a hole wide as you like.

I did it becouse it's easy to make a hole wider...and impossible to make it smaller. And If you don't use wall spacers becouse you do screw fixing...those holes for wall spacers are available too...you could even fit metric M6 screw with screw head from the bottom :-)

P.S.
I don't mind at all you posting pictures...after all I posted as much inside details already :-)

For australia....I obviously don't have propper tracking service...Australian post report "not trackable item"
Posted By: BigC208

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/26/13 09:26 PM

Milan, rudders arrived! Only I was out flying for work. They tried to deliver it one hour before I got home. Tomorrow I'm of flying the whole day so I'll pick it up on Wednesday. So far it looks like I don't have to pay any customs fees. All in all a quick travel across the pond. As soon as I get the package I'll give you feedback on how the packing material survived the trip.
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/26/13 10:59 PM

Mine arrived today, packaging was perfect, everything went together well. Need to play with the brakes a bit, and haven't had time to try out different cam profiles (hopefully this weekend), but loving them so far, based on a quick outing in FSX. I finally feel CONNECTED to the rudder in the aircraft in the same way I am to the throttle and stick. Rudder inputs are natural, versus stabbing in the dark with the Saitek combat pedals.

More feedback as I get a chance to use them smile
Posted By: Rivet

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/27/13 09:50 AM

My pedals also arrived safely this morning. The packaging was excellent. Our postal service did manage to put a small break in the outer cardboard box lid but the inner Styrofoam packing was perfectly intact with no damage. Everything was very well packed and arrived in perfect condition.

Assembly was a breeze. I have to go and find some screws to fix the pedals to my base board, but then it will be time to try them out. It was obvious on opening the package that this is top quality kit. They look and feel very solid.

I'm no real life pilot and as far as simming goes I've never used rudder pedals before so I don't have much to compare against. However, I can report back on the overall feel, the cam profiles and spring settings I like, which I will do.

This afternoon I think will be spent getting comfortable with using pedals for the first time. biggrin
Posted By: komemiute

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/27/13 12:26 PM

This is just glorious!
I'm so happy that this rudder project worked out! biggrin

Milan, that was really impressive!
Going to really think about this as my actual rudder pedals are just... nice.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/28/13 01:14 AM

I'm away becouse of work...so I'm a bit inactive lately but watching.

I'm glad all of you are happy and that packing is good.

I'm waiting your opinions on CAM profiles and spring settings,some people already posted to me by e-mail...we'll discuss about it more when everybody get more used to their new gear :-)
Posted By: IvanK

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/30/13 08:43 AM

My MFG pedals arrived yesterday in good order.

[url="http://s40.photobucket.com/user/zulu64/media/Pedalsday1_zps68c8d370.jpg.html"][/url]

Packaging was exceptional.
Workmanship and engineering is impeccable.

Assembly was minimal, fix pedals,connect Brake wires to snap in fittings, attach USB chord, Attach spring. All took about 10mins max.
Connected to PC and all was well.
Did a basic Win 7 Calibration on them.
Then using a supplied utility did a specific Brake calibration.

Fired up DCS P51D. New controller shown in options as Simunda MFG.
Assigned each brake axis, as Slider and tick the invert box
Set DZ at 10 , Curvature at 35.
For rudder again DZ 10 curvature 35
Went Flying

Absolutely stunning, Smooth progressive Differential brakes, Absolutely smooth Rudder application.
Yet to test the other 2 centering cams that came with them. Cam changing about a 5 min job.

So far so good .... Easily the best rudder pedals I have used on a PC.

only issue I had was figuring out where Win7 hides the calibration panel ! Here is the way to it for future refrence.
Start Control Panel
In the little Search box type in "Game"
then you will see the Setup USB game controller option.
click on it then Properties

[url="http://s40.photobucket.com/user/zulu64/media/MFG_Cal3_zps89164717.jpg.html"][/url]


FLOOR ATTACHMENT
My "pit" is on a large piece of Chipboard. To attach pedals to the Floor I cut 2 small bits of wood and MDF. The rear section to prevent rearward movement. The centre piece to prevent lateral movement. these 2 pieces working together effectively lock the pedals in place. There was no tendancy for the pedals to rise with aggressive use and or brake application. The anti slip mat under the pedals is probably not required. I chose this method rather than physically attaching the pedal base to the wood with screws. I had no need for the wall spacers as a already had a "Wall spacer" arrangement in place for my previous pedals.

[url="http://s40.photobucket.com/user/zulu64/media/Seanbaser1_zpsccd37677.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s40.photobucket.com/user/zulu64/media/Seanbaser2_zps5b417246.jpg.html"][/url]
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/30/13 04:49 PM

Unfortunately, I'm having an issue where Saint's row Iv Want's to use this as it's default controller (versus the Xbox 360 controller hooked up)

I'm also having an issue where both DCS and Rise of Flight have had all their control assignments thrown out of whack because I plugged these in. I'm going to have to re-assign all of my controls now, which I'm not willing to do yet because I'm afraid unplugging these will cause the issue all over again.

Saints row works fine when I unplug them, but unplugging my pedals every time I want to play a non-sim game isn't a long term solution, especially considering my Saitek Combat rudders never did this. Plugging in my CH Pro-throttle for the first time also didn't completely destroy all my input settings for my games, so it's clear that introducing a new device into the mix isn't a problem for these games.

Anyone else having issues like this?
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/30/13 05:23 PM

Are you shure you didn't have trouble like that with other equipment before ?

I know of such problem...it is reported...but I didn't found a solution yet.

What I was told is that windows is stupid enough so every new controler you hook is going to get ID 1.

Especialy a problem if you already have your old pedals pluged - and then you unplug them and plug mine...what happens it that windows move all controller ID-s....and then for some reason force a new controller ID to 1. That's what I've been reported.

Most notably...controller is from Ukraina and used in BRD pedals over two years...so I didn't consider a firmware bug at all.

I've seen some Hacks to overcome this for WinXP, but none for Win7.

One thing that is also is important how simulator , or a game assign controller. If a game assign controller by ID ( Rise of flight, Il2, Il2 COD...) then you have to reasign all controls.

FSX don't have such problem,,,and I've been told DCS don't have that problem either.


So, This is important now :
If you can please check if unplugging and plugging other game devices couse a same behaviour or not
Everyone can make such check by plugging some old stick, pedals or something and then unplugg again.

Owners of MFG crosswind can make a comparison of behaviour of other hardware and MFG crosswind too.


It's important to me to determine if there is a bug in firmware of controller forcing it to take game controller ID 1 assignment in windows...so I can push our Ukrainian producer to make a change of that behaviour...Now he is telling me that it's up to windows to assign ID's.

Hopefully we will find a solution to this together.

Milan
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/30/13 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: milan_croatia
Are you shure you didn't have trouble like that with other equipment before ?

I know of such problem...it is reported...but I didn't found a solution yet.

What I was told is that windows is stupid enough so every new controler you hook is going to get ID 1.

Especialy a problem if you already have your old pedals pluged - and then you unplug them and plug mine...what happens it that windows move all controller ID-s....and then for some reason force a new controller ID to 1. That's what I've been reported.

Most notably...controller is from Ukraina and used in BRD pedals over two years...so I didn't consider a firmware bug at all.

I've seen some Hacks to overcome this for WinXP, but none for Win7.

One thing that is also is important how simulator , or a game assign controller. If a game assign controller by ID ( Rise of flight, Il2, Il2 COD...) then you have to reasign all controls.

FSX don't have such problem,,,and I've been told DCS don't have that problem either.


So, This is important now :
If you can please check if unplugging and plugging other game devices couse a same behaviour or not
Everyone can make such check by plugging some old stick, pedals or something and then unplugg again.

Owners of MFG crosswind can make a comparison of behaviour of other hardware and MFG crosswind too.


It's important to me to determine if there is a bug in firmware of controller forcing it to take game controller ID 1 assignment in windows...so I can push our Ukrainian producer to make a change of that behaviour...Now he is telling me that it's up to windows to assign ID's.

Hopefully we will find a solution to this together.

Milan



Milan,

Thanks as always for your quick feedback! It appears it was the recent DCS update that wiped my controls (frustrating, but clearly not your fault!).

-I confirm FSX works fine, maintaining all controls

-Rise of Flight has the same issue switching back to Saitek pedals, so you were right.. I've also seen this behavior before with games based on the Unity Engine (namely Kerbal Space Program). The fix should be relatively simply though: Look at my existing profile, and write down which Device number is assigned to what axis, and plug them in in reverse order. Example, If joystick axis (Pitch/Roll) are assigned to device 1, and throttle to device 2, plug in Device 2 followed by Device 1, and the assignments will line up again.

-Saints Row however, is still an outstanding issue. If I have all my standing controllers (CH Fighterstick, CH Pro THrottle, CH Throttle Quad, Track IR), the Xbox 360 controller, and the Saitek pedals plugged in, the game works fine: taking inputs from the 360 controller. However, if I un-lug the Saitek pedals and plug in the crosswinds, the game appears to listen to that device as opposed to the 360 controller. Note, I purposely plugged in the Xbox controller first, THEN the saitek pedals, to see if SR4 was simply defaulting to Device ID 1. It still worked, which means it is 'smart' enough to sniff out the 360 controller. Of note, Windows also fully recognizes my Xbox 360 Controller as such (as opposed to a generic controller).

I'm going to try the Device ID fix for Rise of Flight. If that doesn't work, I would think there might indeed be a firmware issue.
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/30/13 06:13 PM

Well, my above solution for RoF didn't work.

Notably, I input my controllers in the following order:

1st Rudder (crosswinds)
2nd Quad
3rd Stick
4th Throttle

As windows assigns new devices as ID 0, they should come out as:
0-Throttle
1-Stick
2-Quad
3-Rudder (Crosswinds)

And they actually came out as
Rudder-Device 0 (crosswinds)
Quad-Device 4
Stick- Device 3
Throttle-Device 2
Edit: THe above are with the 360 controller plugged in the whole time.

With the 360 controller Unplugged (and not re-plugged in), the devices come out as:
Stick-2
Throttle-1
Quad-3
Rudder-0 (crosswinds)

Then when the 360 controller is plugged in (without having removed anything else since the test above):
Stick-3
Throttle-2
Quad-4
Rudder-0 (crosswinds)
360 Cont- 1 <this SHOULD be zero, as it was the last plugged in!

I then un-plugged the stick/throttle and re-plugged them in. The 360 controller and the pedals remained as device 1 and 0 respectively.

Finally, I un-plugged everything EXCEPT THE CROSSWINDS, and plugged in the 360 controller followed by the other devices. the 360 controller still showed as device 0.


Based on the above, I'd say it's pretty clear that the Pedals are "hogging" device 0, but that the 360 controller is also designed to always assign itself as device 0. This is probably the Issue Saints Row 4 has. It's programmed to always listen to Device 0, as the 360 controller should always be device 0. In this case however, the crosswinds are over-ruling the 360 controller. Saints row (as I fear many other games) lacks a way to change controller assignments, as it's designed to use the 360 controller and/or mouse and Keyboard.

For what it's worth, it's understandable that the 360 controller works this way. For many games it's the default controller, and this assures users can just pick up and play without have to deal with setting it up. For me, this would be fine except the crosswinds and the controller will always be fighting for the device 0 slot. frown

For now, the solution seems to be: Setup controls for ROF (without the 360 controller plugged in), then simply swap the 360 controller for the pedals when I move between sims and controller based games. Both devices should assign themselves the device 0 slot, but that won't reassign my other controllers so long as I make sure there's always 1 plugged in when the computer starts. Only thing is I HAVE to make sure I NEVER plug both in at once (or else everything gets bumped up a device number)

Is it possible to deploy a firmware update Milan?
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/30/13 07:25 PM

Thanks for all that plugging and checking. And sorry about your trouble.

I just sent an e-mail to Ukrainian controller producer to check this out. I'll also send e-mail to other buyers to do this check too...so we find out if it's isolated issue at your machine or it's controler forcing itself as ID 0.

Anyway...if it's a controller I'll make shure to get a firmware upgrade.
On the other hand...I don't know If it can be upgraded from windows...I'll check with controler and firmware manufacturer and let you know.
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/31/13 12:52 AM

Originally Posted By: milan_croatia


What I was told is that windows is stupid enough so every new controler you hook is going to get ID 1.



Milan,

AFAIK this is not the way Windows enumerate controllers, they are listed by vendor product ID in firmware.
The lowest number are device ID1 (some games recognize as 0)

These ID number can be check with Dxdiag command, look at Input tab.
Or using VKB Show_HID software:

http://vkb-pro.ru/downloads/programs/viewdownload/3-programmy/5-show-hid

Sample - how some controllers are listed by Windows:



Their vendor ID:

Mjoy8 DIY (9 axis...) - firmware ID 0x002 > in decimal: 02
Thrustmaster T.16000M - firmware ID 0xB10A > in decimal: 45322
CH Fighterstick USB - firmware ID 0xC0F3 > in decimal: 49395

How game (il-2CloD in case) seem them:



Joystick 0 (seem by CloD as Joystick only = Mjoy (9 axis...)
Joystick 1 = Thrustmaster T.16000M
Joystick 2 = CH Fighterstick USB

In this case the last controller plugged are CH Fightestick USB and and he was not moved to ID1.

Quote:


Just to ilustrate: I am used to assemble some Mjoy(ATmega) DIY USB controller and his original firmware are planned to show then as first device for Windows, so use number 01 (this on above example are planned to by the second).

In case I plan use this controller in rudder, but needed to appear as the last device Windows (since in old il-2 1946 if the joystick is not ID1 is not possible to adjust the response curves in game - since the GUI show rudder instead).

So I change this ID number in HEX code - in case I use 9999 (but in binary number) - and rewrite the microcontroler ATMEGA and work as expected. Obviously this is not possible in major or controllers since they dont allow firmware rewrite. (Beyond Mjoy (obsolete) I think are possible in L2 controller).


Ask for your controller manufacturer to write firmware ID with the hight as possible.

Logitech provide a software - that work with another brands - caled JoyID that promises alter this ID enumeration.
Supposedly dont work for il-2:1946/CloD, I dont know if work in anothers games (or Win7/8 64 since are old):

http://www.wingmanteam.com/latest_software/gadgets.htm:

Related topic, that suggests edit register key to change ID: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=27113

Sokol1

Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/31/13 01:22 AM

Thanks Sokol...helpfull as always :-)

So In your opinion best to make Pedals ID high enough - in hope to always get the latest ID in windows. By doing so you make an assumption that pedals will always be a last gear to plug. If any user switch for a new joystick he'll be rewriting everything in game all over - no matter that pedals use high ID.

Based on your data I might guess that both my controller producer and Xbox 360 producer used very low ID ...like decimal 1,2,3 or similar...possibly they both use same ID and now collide in some games.

AgressorBlue, now you have one more way to test it. I'll be home tomorrow evening to test on my equipment too.
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/31/13 02:19 AM

Thanks to both of you for your (always!) helpful advice!

That said, based on how things populated in RoF, I'd say it's a mix of two things with how windows assigns device ID: The manufacturer can specify an ID, or Windows can assign one. The CH controls seem to let Windows assign them one, as they do jump around based on the order they're plugged in.

I hope to try these fixes tomorrow, but the next few days are getting pretty packed so no promises.
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/31/13 12:26 PM

Update: it appears that RoF is indeed not assigning ID's in the 'right' way, as FSX and DCS do. It's using it's own proprietary numbering system.

That said, I did use the JoyID app that Sokol1 mentioned, and the Pedals showed up as device 5. So it appears more and more the problem is with these two specific games, Saints Row 4, and Rise of Flight (I don't have CloD installed to test this more, perhaps some other users can weigh in?)

The solution I'm looking at now, is getting a powered USB hub that has each channel on a switch, so I can quickly and easily swap around devices, including plugging them in in the order they're assigned in games like RoF. I also want to get into racing sims down the road, so this way I can also manage all those controllers without making joystick assignments a nightmare.
Posted By: Slaw

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 08/31/13 08:04 PM

Hi,milan_croatia.
Can you show the test of pedals as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_yxvfONhBY&feature=share.
It is mine.
PS. It not advertizing.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 09/01/13 02:10 AM

Of course slaw :-)
Especialy on Joytester 2...we could play "catch the tail" or "copy what you did in previous run" so snake apear like nothing changed there.

But, I won't publish such test. I'll let my customers do it, it will add credibility to the test. That test can look all sorts of ways...on my pedals with different cams and spring strenghts.

P.S. It is advertising, and I don't mind


EDIT ! - for Slaw
I am maybe rude to you. I just try to be honest here and expect the same. Your post is welcome here but don't tell people it's not advertising when it is. I did a look at your built pedals and I am not ashamed to say Well done ! I know how much engineering it take so I can only congratulate you on your pedals. Only thing I really dislike is centering. It's similar to VKB, Simpeds, Baloo style...and it can provide fine centering with a weaker spring stiffnes but you cannot avoid center "bump". And it's not realistic either. Also, you published very little info about your pedals, no timeframe, predicted price etc....and I published a lot. So I found iritating when you ask me for some sprecs when in general you want publicity. It's ok, I don't mind people knowing for your product too.

On behalf of your question...I can reproduce your pedals behaviour in joytester 2 with my cam6 and very low spring tension on pedals. Hovewer...Not a single user of my pedals use that configuration when they fly.

Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 09/06/13 03:21 PM

I closed 2nd preordering process and I put some news on my web so take a look for info.

Onfortunately I think some of my mail with preorder offer ended in spam filters becouse some interested people didn't respond at all. I did respond to all e-mails I recived.

P.S. gallery on website is up, still a bit buggy but working :-)

Funny, how my end of preordering - kind of a small kickstarter....ended the day DCS WW2 kickstarter started....and my delivery date of preordered pedals is the same as DCS WW2 kickstarter end. It ended that way when last pedal set was preordered....weird ha
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 09/08/13 03:51 PM

Win a set of MFG Crosswind by supporting DCS WW2 kickstarter with 40$ or more !!!!!!

It is initiative from ATAG Bliss on atag forum...here is info how it goes
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5635

And DCS WW2 Kickstarter site :
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944

Idea is to get DCS WW2 funded...and one random will get a set of MFG Crosswind if there are more than 1000 pledges on ATAG Forum.

So spread the word, around all forums you know, let people know

Milan


Edit :
I joined the game to share expenses with Atag_Bliss, and I added a bit of spice :

Pedals will have S/N 0033 - with special engraving of the owners name, or his sqad name
Posted By: klem

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 09/18/13 07:39 AM

Originally Posted By: IvanK
.........................

only issue I had was figuring out where Win7 hides the calibration panel ! Here is the way to it for future refrence.............................


Hi IvanK smile

or you could:-
Start...
Devices and Printers...
Right Click on device and select Game Controller Settings
Posted By: BigC208

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 10/01/13 04:10 PM

I made a base for my crosswind rudder set. They kept moving around on the laminate floor. Used some plywood and kickboard that I had laying in the garage. Used woodscrews for now to test but will use nuts and bolts for the final version after I sand and paint the whole thing white. On the bottom of the base I put shure tape, anti sliding tape for rugs. It's rock solid now, no more sliding. The crosswinds are put together really well. No slop or slack anywhere. Very precise control is now possible compared to the CH Pro pedals I had for years. Very happy with the set. Thanks for putting these together Milan and keeping it priced competitively.



Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 10/06/13 03:48 PM

Thanks on pictures and comments BigC, I'm glad you're happy with a set.

Sorry for my late reply, I'm busy producing these days.

It seem like most of the buyers don't use wall spacers at all. And from pictures I see the obvious...you either have a corner table, or others sit far away from table with a floor mountet stick.

It's obvious that I can't ship such bit support to keep your pedals in place. More obvious small velcro pads would not do the job well especially if user like stronger - more realistic spring adjustment. What I can and what I will do when I have some more time is publish dxf and Pdf drawing of some sort of support plate with exact position of screw holes for pedals to make your life easier. I just want to think about it a bit more to come to some better solution than yours or others. Some people would like a posibility to easily detach pedals from support...like IvanK. I think wall spacers can still come handy somehow if you want to make easy adjustment of pedals distance from your seating position...will think of something, try, test and publish it :-)

------------------------------------

News about pedals !
I've made some slight modifications, mostly "under the hood". Important modification that upcoming buyers will have is electronics with bootloader and noise filtering for brakes axis for easier calibration and higher Controller ID in windows... I will speak more about it when I'm ready to publish specs.

For existing buyers, firmware upgrade only goes thru special kable, like PicKit2 programmer for PIC microchips. It doesn't bring much change now...but it's easier for future upgrades from windows - since it has bootloader. I'll send a firmware files etc as well as upgrade instructions for existing buyers who want to go thru that hassle.

-------------------------------------

Final price and availability of my pedals I'll publish in the evening or tomorrow on my website
Posted By: Brandano

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 10/06/13 08:45 PM

The simplest possible anti-skid solution is to have a piece of carpet big enough to go under both pedals and chair, and to fit the pedals with adhesive velcro pads that will grip on the carpet. Or even to bolt the pedals to the carpet, with another piece of scrap carpet under the bolt heads to protect the floor. The weight of the chair will easily keep everything in place.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 01/28/14 12:48 AM

MFG CROSSWIND UPDATE - CUMULATIVE CHANGELOG

Hi all
First I apologise for Inactivity here. I focused on pedals production, firmware development, making upgrades to the pedals and responding to e-mails, listening to customers suggestions ... ... ... ... ...

This post is cumulative update to the work that is presented in this thread so far...as well as on my website. I've shipped pedals with upgrades already...but didn't publish such info yet...so here it is.
I will separate it in 5 sections : Hardware upgrades, software and firmware upgrades, Extra cost options, future upgrade announcments and status

HARDWARE UPGRADES

Rudder tension spring hook change to allow more tightening of the screw - more force on the pedals to accomodate airliners more realistic behaviour
Old vs new :



Old with maxed out force :


NEW with maxed out force :



Changed the way braking spring is hooked
This was done mainly becouse some springs are produced a little out of tolerance which sometimes coused squeeking sounds...so I "forced" the spring to behave like I want it to



Some of the first sets shipped with a sharp edge where cable is exiting the front lever which might couse the cable to wear out prematurely. I've First made a service bulletin to those customers to make a loop with the cable like this :




After that...I smoothen those sharp edges. Tests confirmed the big radious cable loop is a way to go.
Still...all cables which twist extensively will eventualy loose contact. I thought about that a lot since rest of the pedals are made to last much much longer. After Testing various cables I found the right one. Test result was a suprise. Main advantage of new cable is that cores are shielded with quality polyurethane instead of PVC. It has coper shielding net around...and thicker rubber all around. Cable diameter is larger while coper cores are actually smaller...preventing cable to swing in very small radious. Due to the material useed cable is still very flexible. Shrink tube is used to prevent any movement around connectors. All of that makes it as robust as it could possibly be.

new cables with sensors and connectors attached :

These cables are already being shipped in pedals for a while. It's easy to replace old cables with the new...if old customers ever need to.

Serial Numbering
Every set from S/N 0003 has a engraved serial number...but I think I did not post a picture of it yet.


There are also some other minor changes "under the hood". Owners of the first sets will notice that holes for wall spacers on this picture are beweled, while on their pedals these are not beweled. Also on this pic too :


You can see beveled screw holes on braking shaft...normaly not seen after assembly...but there happend some chipping while machining in production. Some of the first customers know about it.
It could be said that I've polished my production technique to prevent minor imperfections and remove sharp edges on many places.


SOFTWARE AND FIRMWARE UPGRADES
"Brain" of the pedals got the most attention.

- BOOTLOADER : firmware is easy to upgrade from windows. When new firmware is published...customers update it in a few clicks. This proved to be important not only becouse of new features.
- Resolution is increased to full 12 bit - 4096 true positions on all axis
- MFG Configurator tool - pedals have it's own software to adjust them. I present you what is now already V1.3


Such application is made to tweak the settings of the MFG Crosswinds. More important...to abandon windows calibration completely. Once pedals are set up to your liking settings are saved within electronics of the pedals and will stay there even if you move to another PC. Software is not necessary unless you want to tweak it again or change the angle of the pedals...as software is requied to calibrate the "viewing angle" of the braking hall sensor which is changed every time you set up angle of the pedals...simply recalibrate.

I'm proud of oversampling features in the firmware as well as averaging and decimation method used to filter the noise on the axis. Customer can turn it on/off...or tweak the strenght of the filtering.

DEADZONES - some users think that there should be some small deadzone to prevent accidental braking...some think there should be none. Also some users prefer to know that pedals are perfectly at 50,00% in the middle while other admire response to the slightest imput around the center. Well...I've made it possible to tweak it to customer liking like no other manufacturer.
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You think I did nothing special there ? Or maybe you think your joystick don't have a deadzone ? Well THINK AGAIN.
Simple test...move your joystick very slowly around the middle of the axis while you look at the reading in something like DIVIEW software. You will definitely notice a small portion in the middle where joystick movement don't react in windows. EVEN ON WARTHOG !!!... That's "deadzone center" Number of positions which will not be read by windows in.In MFG Configurator you can turn it off or set it up to 40 positons. My Default is 8 positions out of 4096 - that much is almost impossible to notice by your feet

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Also...within firmware...you can revers axis...turn centering on/off, calibrate sensors (start-stop button), view the version of the firmware and see if pedals are connected or not. More features to come :-)

Previous firmware had "autocalibration"...every time you replug pedals or turn on your PC pedals autocalibrated. That didn't work well...now I prefer that calibration is stored within electronics....but will possibly add checkbox for autocalibration if customers request.


EXTRA COST OPTIONS

CAM5 centering profile = 11 eur
Cam's are explained in a PDF document that you can open here on my google public folder
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5U6NoLzIkn9elZlLWJ4Rmk1Rk0&usp=sharing

Width adjustment plates set = 19 eur
These are explained in youtube Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mrSWkC_1Hk


FUTURE UPGRADES AND ANNOUNCMENTS - STATUS

Current extra cost options are in stock, but I will develop and produce more of these. First to see the daylight are :

CAM7 - cam that was requested by the customers to be like CAM6 cca 30% around the center and then continue toward end of deflection without progressive increase in strenght at all. It's purely COMBAT CAM ...not realistic :-)

US FIGHTER COMBAT STYLE FOOT PLATES - a.k.a. F16...don't know yet how to call these. It's been on my priority list for a while but ever since I started producing I lack of time to make them. My own wish is to make these very soon.
- new customers will be able to choose what foot plates style to ship with pedals
- also...will be able to buy additional set with pedals
- existing customers will be able to buy a set as an extra to ship separately

GREY/BLACK Color of the pedals. Now I can make a definiteve announcment that this will happen...don't have a time frame yet...and don't know if I'll continue to produce WHITE/BLACK or not.

CUSTOM ENGRAVING EXTRA COST OPTION.
Winner of ATAG Bliss MFG Crosswind giveaway is finally in contact with me. I will make some custom engraving on the pedals for him as promised and will set the price for such work and make it possible.

MORE FIRMWARE UPGRADES....I have a few more ideas there...we'll see what is doable so I won't announce each feature...but will simply send a link to customers whenever it's ready so they can upgrade.



PEDALS AVAILABILITY
I'm still booked up front. Currently I'm booked cca 1 month up front. I'm working on it to satisfy demand and have pedals in stock so that will hopefully happen soon.
In a meanwhile...all info about ordering from my website is stil valid :
http://www.mfg.simundza.com/
Posted By: Vorlander

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 01/29/14 05:32 PM

Thx for a great update Milan.
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production - 01/30/14 06:09 PM

Good news,thanks for the Update.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 02/24/14 07:13 PM

MFG CROSSWIND UPDATE

Giveaway pedals from ATAG Bliss initiative shipped today. Choosing a winner was delayed a few times, you can read about it on ATAG forums. Now, with Klem's permission I wanted to show you his pedals...custom engraved "KLEM 56RAF".

I figured I did not post any new pictures of complete pedals for a while so this is a nice oportunity to do it. On these pictures you will notice some of the recent upgrades on complete pedals.

UPDATES ARE :
1. Brake sensor CAP ( separate picture) - modified the cable entry to the cap so no gluing or fixing is necessary to keep the cable in place. The way that cable is going thru the sensor cap prevent it to be accidentaly pulled out. Most important reason for this update is to prevent any cable movement around the sensor, but retain easy servicing if necessary in the future.

2. Both front and rear main bearing assembly got changed. You will notice on pictures that rear assembly don't have circular support but rectangular all the way. This change was introduced to make assembly even more rugged, but also alow me to better and simplier align all parts resulting in quicker and better assembly process.

Of course...both upgrades are fully backward compatible with older pedals.

Also, with some final changes under the hood I finished polishing the main design of the pedals. Now I already have a lot of experience producing pedals which allowed me to make parts to a little bit tighter tolerances. Don't get me wrong, all pedals before function just great and these recent changes is just like fine tuning of already a great violin






Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 02/24/14 08:54 PM

Congratulations to KLEM 56RAF

Great updates Milan.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 02/24/14 09:05 PM

Thx
I guess you and Vorlander, as owners of Crosswinds notice more subtle changes on the pedals than others :-)
Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 02/24/14 09:12 PM

Yes,a few I noticed right away by looking at the pictures.^^
Posted By: Hrvoje

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 03/04/14 01:11 PM

Mine arrived yesterday, and after few brief flights in DCS Huey, I am very impressed...and pleased driving
They are example of fine craftsmanship: They look and feel superb to anything available on market, and are very precise and responsive..
I think that my strafing runs with avenger cannon will now rack more kills per pass..Also taking off in Huey and Mi-8 now I finally can take of while keeping my noise pointed in one direction +/- few degrees..
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 03/19/14 04:01 PM

Hi all
I've published new video on youtube if anyone is intrested
It cover unpacking, assembly and calibration ( calibration at 6:50) . Old videos were a bit long and calibration was more directed to old customers and upgrade proces , so it was complicated and confusing for new customers.



Enjoy
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 08/05/14 12:14 PM

Hi All
It's been a while since my last update due to lack of time, not because lack of updates :-)

RUBBER FEET :
Pedals ship with better rubber pads for a while now. As many of you noted pedals get a better grip on surfaces like stone, parquet or similar. However, when stronger pedals tension is desired I still recomend very much hard mounting pedals. Alternative - use velcro strips


HOLES FOR HARD MOUNTING PEDALS :
These holes recived a revision to allow user possibility of using variety of different screws without any hassle
Metric thread screws M6,M5,M4 can be used, and woodscrews or other types too, with various screw heads


COMPATIBILITY WITH WHEELSTAND PRO
I can announce that producers of wheelstand pro will make another set of holes on their pedals plate to make MFG Crosswind rudder pedals compatible with their product without need of user drilling holes
http://www.wheelstandpro.com/


MFG SOFTWARE AND FIRMWARE UPGRADE
More than a few firmware updates were released since my last update here.
Current version is Firmware v4.17 and MFG Configurator 1.41
I will not write all the changes here, since full changelog as well as user manuals are included inside MFG Software package 1.41 and available to download from my website here :
http://mfg.simundza.com/download.php

I only publish a screenshot of version 1.41 :






FUTURE CHANGES - STATUS

CAM7 and US FIGHTER COMBAT STYLE FOOT PLATES are still not finished. If you take a look at current waiting time for pedals - 2 months...I don't have to explain why.
GREY/BLACK pedals color switch - ...not yet :-( I have to delay this switch for a few moths at least :-(


PEDALS AVAILABILITY
Current waiting time approx 60 days from order confirmation
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 08/05/14 12:53 PM

Great Update Milan, thanks!


Re the 60 day waiting period: Good things are worth waiting for smile
Posted By: Merlins51

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 11/12/14 08:49 AM

Got mine yesterday and couldn't be happier. They're a joy to use and Milan answered my questions almost immediately when I e-mailed him. That man knows how to design/build an amazing product and also give incredible customer service!
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 03/24/15 04:05 PM

Hi everyone
In case someone is still monitoring this good ol' thread...I've updated my website. There is a comprehensive newsletter on website with some FAQ, new prices, shipping prices.
Product page is partly update as well and there is new online order form in case you want to order.

http://mfg.simundza.com/
Posted By: AggressorBLUE

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 03/25/15 01:11 AM

Nice!

Glad to hear that work continues on combat style rudder pedals smile
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 06/13/16 11:03 PM

MFG SiMM8Rge and digital sensors.

Posted By: Ltfransky

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 06/14/16 01:10 AM

Cool. When are those available?
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 06/14/16 04:04 AM

Coming soon...smile
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 06/14/16 10:29 PM

Good question. smile

Perhaps they plan make a CAM gimbal kit, similar to one BAUR make.

Although not too much advisable (due their play), this controller and sensors can be used on Cougar Gimbal, CH Gimbal...







Posted By: Sokol1

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 07/05/16 04:10 PM

MFG now sold aluminium extension for Warthog, more affordable than similar products, and more if buy 2/3 - that can be combined to get custom sizes.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=169429

BTW - MFG soft package 2.15 manual has more information about SIMM8rge USB controller card,
e.g. can support 128 buttons in DCS without keymapper soft, suport MLX 90333 HALL sensor in 3D (like in Warthog/Tm T.1600M, X-55)
or 2D - sliding or turn magnets.







Posted By: Sokol1

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 08/02/16 09:02 PM

Crosswind pedals now have options for "elegant dress" - gray and medium gray: smile




Pictures/video posted by YoYo in ED.



Now looks more... "high tech". biggrin

http://mfg.simundza.com/blog/mfg-crosswind-graphite-color-option/

Posted By: Lausbub78

Re: Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind ) - 08/03/16 02:37 PM

Yes,looks really nice. I'm waiting for the Combat-style Footrests though,I hope they still are planned to be released...
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