WAH-64D Apache Flight Controls Project

Hi Guys

Thought I would start a thread to show the progress of the Apache Flight Controls I have started. The overall plan is to have the Cyclic and Collective available to buy! Enjoy!


Stage 1
Initial Prototyping of the Cyclic.



Cheers

Rich

www.komodosimulations.co.uk

Very nice, Rich, Longbow Time!

Rich

Nice project

And I know it is very early days yet and also my next question is a bit of a case of "how long is a piece of string", however I am going to ask anyway lol!

Do you have a price range in mind yet please?

Cheers

LOL I was waiting for that question to come up!

So, going to do that annoying thing of answering a question with a question!!

What would people be happy paying?

I have got a rough idea of production costs, but haven't actually bought all items required so that might change. I am hoping to have the first Cyclic finished in around a month or so for testing. I will have a better idea then!

Cheers

Rich

Mmmm difficult one that - obviously it will be more than a mass produced joystick, possibly anything under the £180-200 mark would be acceptable to the WGPAF (Wife/Girlfriend/Partner Approval Factor)

Just a suggestion if I may, you might be better off doing the collective first as there is not a reasonably priced version available at the moment, whereas with the cyclic many people may be happy using their joystick of choice...

Cheers

That much! hhhmmmm!! LOL

For that amount I take it you would expect a complete Plug and PLay Joystick rather than just a grip?!?

Going for the Cyclic first as its so much easier than the collective, as that has loads of stuff on it. This is a feasability test aswell at the moment to see if I can actually make it! But see your point tho! If the cyclic is successful the collective wont be far behind!

BR

Rich

Rich

Yes at that price point, I would be expecting a plug and play solution. If a grip was available to integrate with a custom built flight stick then that would be a good option as well. Not so sure on a good price point for that...

Horses for courses - some people like to custom build and would prefer just a grip and then others would prefer the whole thing in a nice and easy user friendly package.

Up to you chap but I would say go ahead and do the grip first, followed by a collective - just my two pence worth though

Cheers

In the world of high end HOCAS (non existent) I would start you're pricing in the area of the upcoming A10 HOTAS from Thrustmaster. Expecting a quality A/C specific controller for under $300-400USD is just non sense. If it was a generic Collective/Stick that's one thing but this is all subjective to the final product. Look forward to watching the progress, I'd spend the money I mentioned (just have to save up for it lol).

This is great info guys thanks.

Will try and create it as best I can and the more feedback/ideas people can put out there the better.

If it were a full joystick rather than just a grip, would people prefer a desk height/mounted one or a floor standing version with the correct approx shaft length? Mind you if it works well, the possibility exists to create both a grip and a full stick as well as a desk and floor mounted version.

But getting a little ahead of myself here! LOL

A floor standing version with the long shaft would be the most popular, there really isn't an affordable off-the-shelf cyclic out there. Most people that want a cyclic have to modify their flight stick and that's usually a hit-or-miss affair and only for the technically minded. The shaft wouldn't even need to be an accurate length, just the length that works best for flight simulators.

Looking forward to this and good luck!

Cheers

Ah but Hitch at that price, do you not get both the stick and the throttle? Which makes the price of the stick alone approx around the $250 mark. That was was my chain of thought anyhow

Cheers

Hi Guys,

Just 3D Designing the internal workings of the stick. Bit more market research required!!

Option 1 - Floppy Stick

Would people prefer a floppy stick - so when you let go it doesnt spring back to centre or hold position it just falls it which ever direction possible. Realistic for non-stabilised helis.

Option 2 - Self Centreing

When you let go it returns to centre. No helis do this as far as I know.

Option 3 - Force Trim Stlye

Where ever you let go of the stick it stays in that position, but not having to press a button to move it again as in RW. Stablised helis have this function.

Thanks again for the help!

Rich

I think the most important function, if you're making a helicopter controller, would be if you could model a proper force trim. That is, when you hold the force trim button, there is no centering force, and when you release it, then the centre will be whereever the stick is at the time the button is released. If you can make that then you have something really unique and very useful for helicopters!

Would also be interesting to have a proper cyclic controller. I.e. with long movement, so that it's easy to make fine adjustments. And the Apache one with the two grips looks interesting, and I assume useful when you have that many controls.

If money was no object

Floor standing: Option 3, failing that option 1 (could option 3 be a kit add-on, you'd need some kind of ram for that, and small reliable ones wouldn't be exactly cheap).

Desk mounted: I think Option 3. Budget model option 2.

A conversion kit for a Saitek X52 might be popular. Just a thought.

There is no actual centering force in a helicopter cyclic. All the force trim does is maintain the controls in a set position for the aircraft to maintain a set attitude that you or the autopilot puts it in. Pressing the trim release just releases the attitude hold to allow you to adjust the attitude of the aircraft. A cyclic control has no centre point. So to recreate force trim you would need to have actuators on the control to move system if the aicraft is displaced by an outside force such as a gust of wind etc. So the closest I can get with making it affordable is Option 3.

Hope that makes sense.

Well, this is what the flight manual says about trimming.



(emphasise mine)

Yeah sorry, wording it that way. It creates a false centre for the aircraft to return to once displaced wihout the trim release being pressed. I always try to teach that it creates a datum for the aircraft to return to. Saying that the system has a centre made things a little confusing. But yes you're right it that respect the system creates a centre. As regarding putting working version into a stick will make it expensive. It has been done I think in a system from Oz. Will look into it and see what I can come up with. But option 3 and floor standing is certainly doable.

I'll weigh in on this, as I am working on a plan for a one-of conversion of a TM Cougar to a collective. I still plan on using the cougar stick as the cyclic, but am going to extend and angle the shaft a bit to fit my cockpit.

I would love to see a replacement grip option for the cougar. I would think this would allow you to produce the cyclic first, just grip and buttons, making it plug and play with existing controller/software. Seems to be a lot less to support/warranty later. Doing the same for the collective stands to reason as well.

As a replacement stick/throttle, I would pay up to $100/$150 if they were high quality and maintained all of the programming functionality of the Cougar.

If I were to seek an outright replacement of the whole thing, I would want them completely programmable, plug and play, floor mountable, with option 3 force trim on the cyclic. You know.. the whole sha-bang. I would expect to pay $300-$400 for it though.

And now you know what was rattling around in my brain bucket!
Dud

Hi Dud,

Thanks for the reply. The only problem with making just the grip to replace grips on other joysticks is that chances are you may not have enough buttons on the original joystick to be able to wire in all the buttons and switches on the WAH-64 one and vice versa - you may have too many and loose functionality. The grip I am making will have 3 push-buttons. 2 momentary toggle switches with 2 poistions each and 2 4-way HAT controls.

For me to be able to make it compatible with a number of different joysticks I would have to buy those joysticks, check what buttons they have and how the grip connects to the joystick base. Or just try and make it compatible with a couple of the most popular sticks would be the best idea. Or as Flexman suggested, a conversion kit for certain sticks. Reasearch into different sticks required!

Will see how they come out first and then play around with different ideas. First unit will be a grip for my Virtual Blade Flight Control seat, will see how it works on that!

Have started the collective aswell now - pics to follow shortly!

Cheers

Rich

LOL cheers Richard!!

Initial shot of the collective before it gets covered in filla for sanding! Need to add a little plasticine to a few places. Got a little excited with the file and took too much off!



Cheers

Rich

I hate to sound cruel but it looks like something's taken a huge bite out of a Smurf.


So you cover this with some kind of resin, sand it down smooth and you use it to make a mould?

Sorry to bump up the forum width. Just thought I'd share a close up of the one in our game to compare. Anyone got a close up pic of the real one?

Well im on the right track by the looks of the one from LCH you've posted! Smurf's - now there's a memory!

Basically yes, cover it in Silicone, hollow it out and then cast it in resin and put all the buttons and switches in! Might not be able to make all the switches usuable unless anyone knows of a I/O Board that can take more than 32 button inputs?!? Any pictures of real or 'in simulator' collectives will be greatly appreciated!

Cheers

Rich

Game input libraries tend to have a limit of 32 buttons from a single device anyway. Things like the Dpad on the 360 joypad are done using a single axis as input. Just thought I'd mention it.

Ahh rgr! Thanks for that, will stop looking! LOL. In that case will try and get as many in as possible.

In that case, are there any functions on the collective not used in LCH?

But is there really anything stopping you from letting it be several devices (apart from some old games only being able to use one)? I know the G940 is seen as three devices to get around the buttons/axes limit.

Thats a possibility. If its bought as a HOCAS then there will be a board for each, so I guess that some of the inputs that aren't being used from the Cyclic can be used by the collective. Problem solved. Well that was simple, should've thought of that earlier!

Cheers

This board has 50 pins:
http://www.u-hid.com/
But you can only let 32 show up as gamecontroller buttons, the rest can be programmed with keyboard macros.

You can also use multiple boards.

Hi Guys,

Have spent a couple of boring days down at Battersea and have worked out and designed a real force trim system that I can make compact enought to fit in a floor standing Cyclic system. Just waiting for a couple of costings to come in and will get a prototype built and tested!

Depending on work constraints should have a version of it on the Virtual Blade for the Show at Weston-Super-Mare in the UK in May.

Rich

Right, have got some initial costings in for the Force Trim Release. It looks like its going to add around £130-150 onto the cost. This could put the overall price up to near the £400 mark!?!? Is that something that people would be willing to spend on a Cyclic?

Personally, that's a wee bit high for me until I get a new job. And I'm not too clear why such a mechanism is really needed, years of helo simming managed to get by without it. The engineering is impressive though.

I never had a problem using trim functions in sims or felt the need that a hardware solution was required. Although I think by the time DCS Apache rolls around it might be a nice to have.

Does the design allow it as an upgrade I wonder?

Well, you don't need this stick at all. In fact you don't need a joystick at all, keyboard control is all you need :P



The traditional solution in helicopters sims (with regular joysticks) so far has been to put the joystick where you want center to be, press the trim button then have to quickly return the stick to its actual centre (which causes the helicopter to move about a bit in the time it takes to move the stick back to centre. See some of all the discussion there has been about Black Shark's trimming system (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AobTSeYyTNo)). It's this having to return the stick to centre which is the part you wouldn't have to do if the stick had a mechanical force trim built in. Instead the centre would move where you have the stick. And as a result the helicopter wouldn't be making movements every time you trim.

You can simulate force trim with force feedback, and I have tried it in Black Shark. It does make controlling the helicopter much smoother, although it doesn't work perfectly (not sure if that is Black Shark or the stick's fault. But it doesn't always change the centre position to the correct position). But I assume this stick will not be force feedback?

That said, £130-150 to the cost is quite a bit, so I can understand if many feel that is too much for this feature.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

It does increase the price quite abit. Although it is going to be an option when buying, so you will be able to have the stick without it. I will design the base of the stick to allow the Force Trim system to be added at a later date. Although this might involve sending the unit back for installation, it wont be something that you can just 'clip' onto the stick to make it work. Its quite a complex system to put in. Will try and design a relatively easy way of putting it into the stick base.

No it wont be force feedback as in a real helicopter of this size you dont get the sort of feedback thru the controls that force feedback creates.

It something that some people will want and others wont. Without the system in, you will still be able to move the cyclic to a position and let go and it will stay there.

I'm familiar with the issues with force trim and Black Shark and how it works, it was never a problem before Black Shark. That's why I wonder why it's really needed. Just seems like a shiny thing because one sim worked better with it. I'm guessing that DCS Apache (is that confirmed?) will have the same kind of input system so if Rich goes into production with these units an off-the-shelf system should be really attractive. Not much competition on this side of the planet.

Consider some folks have been ripping apart expensive sticks that cost way more than £130 UKP and grabbing force-feedback Sidewinders from ebay to emulate high-end simulator controls. I suspect there's an element of guys in workshops wanting to make something different.

I can see how having accurate force trim controls in the Apache is really desirable but it shouldn't be required at all. It's like having an autopilot mode, but without the autopilot.


So yeah, nice to have, shouldn't be needed though. Customer option sounds cool.

The only confirmed future module for DCS, at this time, is DCS:A-10C.

Just a little update to bring this thread back up!!

Work has started to gather pace after trying to source the required parts. The Flight controls are in the process of having the shells vacuum formed ready for casting of the first prototype. Will post pics asap.

You can also keep track of all our developments on the website!

Cheers

Rich

Hmm, website seems to be down...

Hhhmmm so it is!! Better go and wake the Webmaster to get it sorted!

Will hopefully be back soon!!

Rich

Website back up!! The boffins have got it sorted!!

£400? That's expensive, all right, but given the US$-to-GBP exchange rate, shipping, customs, and such involved for any prospective American buyers, the pricing will get ludicrous!

As I said earlier, the force trim release system will be an optional add-on. The stand alone Cyclic is looking to come it at under the £250 mark at the moment. But also there isn't a (that i'm aware of) a realistic trim release system available for the home pc market at the moment, so first versions are always going to be expensive.

As arneh said further up;-

" Well, you don't need this stick at all. In fact you don't need a joystick at all, keyboard control is all you need :P"

At the moment the only stand alone cyclic on the market is 1290Euros, which is around £1090 or $1670 and that's just for the a basic cyclic without force trim. As the market for these types of controllers is so much smaller than fixed wing controls the cost is always going to be higher.

We are going to be at the Cosford Flight Sim Show at the end of August with (hopefully) the full HOCAS Apache flight controls setup. So if anyone is around in the UK come along and see the system and have a go!

Astrasim Expo 2010

Cheers

Rich

To add, we're going to try and be there for the Saturday to show Combat-Helo, Rich has kindly offered to host us on his stand so we can play with his cool toys. For which I'm truly thankful, a chance to try big boys toys.

We're working hard to get the new demo ready in time.

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the lack of updates on these controls. I have spent hours of sanding, spraying, filling, painting, sanding, spraying, filling, pain.... you get the idea!

But at last here is a few shots of the collective just before it starts the mould making process. Hopefully the next time you see them the first one will be cast!!

And hopefully this now looks less like a half eaten Smurf (cheers Flex)!

Mmmmm, licorice on a stick.

Already saving for them
Anyone building an Apache pit yet?

I'd help with the sanding if I could, it's quite a relaxing way to spend a bit of down time. I blogged your progress.

With so much excitement about A10 joysticks it's nice to see something different.

Cheers for that Flex! I think I must check you blog at least 4-5 times a day if not more! Plans are already afoot for a full Apache cockpit!

All sanded now and they are in the moulds. Work on the Virtual Blade is taking up most of my time, but is coming together really well for the show. If it continues there is a small outside chance they will be ready if this moulding process works (the first attempt didn't) but possibly not with the switches etc.. working.

Hi guys,

Sorry for the lack of updates, work has been manic the last couple of months!

I have had a change of approach for the controls. I am now building them in 3D in the computer to export them to Cut3D, which is a bit of software that controls a CNC machine. I will then have them CNC'd out of a block of wood ready for replication and hopefully sale! I have attached some pics of the collective. I have also attached a picture or our Long Shaft Cyclic which wil be ready for purchase in the new year. Also available in the new year will be our new JetRanger Collective Grip with fully working idle release and all the buttons. Will update when all this is ready!

Cheers

Rich

Hello all,

I'm planning to mod a Sidewinder FFB2 into a AH-64D style cyclic stick, and I would like to know if the Right up CT-HB switch and left-down RTS switch(RADIO-RTS-ICS) are toggle switch or push switch?Are they locked or temporary toggle in operate? Appreciate for any hint or advice. thanks!

I don't know for sure, but I would exepct them to be toggles which returned to center. Particulary the CT-HB switch, which selectes between the four HUD modes (C = Cruise, T = Transition, H = Hover, B = Bob-up). I expect each press of CT to alternate between Cruise and Transition, and HB to alternate between Hover and Bob-up. It would awkward to use if you had to return it to center manually too, when trying to alternate between the modes in the same direction.

Thank you for great reply arneh. It's so hard to find anything about switch functions of AH-64D cyclic and collective stick so I even don't know what does CT/HB means.:P

I agree your point. Besides CT/HB, RADIO and ICS are 2 buttons in AH-64A cyclic so I think they are temporatory toggles that will back to center after press. This way I can make them as 4way POV switchs etc, a more easiler way for me. Good news.:)

Any updates on your project Rich?

Hi,

Not at the moment I'm afriad. Hoping to move into the new office/workshop in the next couple of weeks. Also I'm getting married end of July so have got a lot to sort out for that, so haven't got much time for this project at the moment. Any spare time is being put into the Virtual Blade Flight controls and ProStart JetRanger Collective. Away for August but as soon as i'm back I will be hitting this hard to get some progress. Will be putting the CNC Machine in September time and hope to develop from there. So it will be near the end of the year before you will see any more progress.

Rich

It's almost the end of the year ;-) Did you give that 3D printing a chance? Any hopes that it will be finished when Combat Helo comes out?

Cheers,

Wesley

Hi Wes,

Nothing to post on progress picture wise, but I am waiting on a number of quotes coming back for different ways of producing the controls. They might not make the release of the Firing Range (depending on when that is) but should be ready for the main release. Just finishing off the 3d files at the moment. As soon as I get some info back on costings etc.. for production I will let you know.

Cheers

Rich

Hmm are you going with 3D printing? I'll have a look if I could maybe find out if KLM has one of those printers and if someone I know has acces to them...Might save time+money...
Any idea in what price range the HOCAS will be?(don't mind you being off a 100 Euro/Pound/Yen/Dollar ) So I know how much money to put away each month

Well at the moment the 3D printing is going to come out around £300-400 just to get the part printed and delivered to me. That is without any of the switches or the control board or bearings or enclosures etc..etc... I am waiting on a quote for parts for a B206 collective to come back from a company and that will give me a better idea of costs to print the Apache stuff. Their initial estimates were a lot less than what I have been quoted by other companies so far. As a very rough ball park estimate I want to be under the £500 mark for both the Cyclic and Collective together.

Thats the best I can do at the moment.

BR

Rich

Under £500 sounds very good for both the collective and cyclic! Well that's my humble opinion at least...
For the next project the TEDAC grips or the MFD-bezels? ;-)

Hahaha you have read my mind!! Flex has already sent me over drawings of the CPG Grips and just waiting on the dimensions for the MPD screens. So in a word yes, they will be next. We also have designs starting to take shape for the IHADSS.

I can feel a full cockpit coming on!!

Rich

Oh I've got some nice pictures of the IHADSS aswell...I've been thinking about making one myself but I just don't have the technical knowledge I guess, can't get the focus right, and then there's the ratio about what you see on screen, and where the HMD is actually pointing at on the screen, or I just worry too much...
I'll shoot you an email with the IHADSS detail pictures!
I'll need a bigger room to put my computer/cockpit in then...and more iPads as screens!

Finally managed to get back onto this!

This is the latest render of the collective. Still got a few things to tweak before I hollow it out. Will then send it to get made!!

BR

Rich

Very very nice......work good luck with the holes .....

Horrido
weisse13

Re-tweaked, looks much better! Now for the holes!!

BR

Rich

Thought you might enjoy this
http://www.trademe.co.nz/antiques-collectables/militaria/modern/auction-491067211.htm