CNC Machinist - I can make these parts easy.

Hello all. I was browsing through the forums and I stumbled on this page. I am a CNC machinist with just over 20 years experience in the field. Making these panels out of sheet aluminum would be quite easy for me to do. Also I live next to the bone yard in Tucson AZ where they retire most of the Air Force planes. I have never looked into getting anything from the various companies that do demolition to the very old planes or if that is even possible. Anyways ... on to the machining.

First off .... Machining panels is what is considered 2 1/2 dimensional ( the cutter moves in the X Y axis whiles cutting and repositions using the up down Z axis occasionally. Simply put you slap a sheet down and hold it in some fashion. You load the program into the CNC (computer numerical control) machine to cut out the switch locations and cut your piece out. You would engrave the text accordingly and debur (file or smooth sharp edges).
Parts that are panels with text inscribed in them are quite easy to make. Time consuming for the first one but after that it is a simple as loading blanks onto the machine and pushing a start button.
After the panels are made you would want to coat them. I would recommend a professional coating. These can get expensive. There is a very vast market out there for coating aluminum. The company I work for has many parts we send out all the time for coating. I could get a price on coating some stuff with a lower end coating. Also there are very high quality paints out there that wound do fine. Some paints have a type of wrinkle finish when they dry. These may work in some scenarios. Coating is the last of our worries. Thant is the final step.

I can see why that guy got that much money for a set of panels as it is quite involved to get the first sets done.

I have the software to make the cutting data for anything you can throw at me. I also work in a machine shop here in Tucson. Getting Machine time is another story. That is not easy. Something I could work on.

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Now onto 3D machining. All the above applies but this would be machining parts that actually have contour. You do not normally 3d machine sheet aluminum. This would involve machining small aluminum blocks into the shape you want. This also takes a CAD model to accomplish. I would have to make a wire frame model of the part , surface the wire frame and program the surfaced wire frame to be cut in a machine. Again the parts do not look difficult at all.

For me to reproduce something I need a template of some sorts. Dimensions are a most if I am to draw it. We could discuss further on how to make templates if anything comes of this. The thing I would need is some type of dimensions from somewhere. I don't think that General Dynamic or The Skunk Works is going to release any CAD Drawings anytime soon.

I had also seen a mention of vacuum forming. In another post. I had done this a very long time ago when I worked for my father back in Detroit. Car Manufacturers do this as one of the first steps in seeing what parts will look like before going ahead with a prototype molding tool (BIG BUCKS) to produce parts. It is a very fun way to make parts but again the first part here takes A LOT of work to get. Depending on the complexity. You usually use an ABS plastic sheet to melt and a vacuum sucks the heated plastic down onto whatever you have for a model underneath it.

Lets see where this leads us.

I will be watching the forum.

Static, thanks for posting. It appears that you read my post about making F/A-18 panels.

All of this depends on what aircraft you want to do. 80% of the people here are probably building a F-16 (could be wrong, just a guess). Possibly because the sims for that aircraft are so good and the dimensions for those pits/panels are so readily available. So what would be the simplest to start with probably.

I am interested in getting panels done for the FA-18, as you saw. Not a lot of info on that is available. Right now I'm talking to another guy that does great work on F-16 panels, and I'm hoping that project will go somewhere. But that wouldn't stop you from making them as well, just need to gauge the demand. Maybe others would be interested in other panels for other aircraft.

Ripcord

Yeah I'd be interested - but the shipping from the States would be a killer no doubt!

Personally long term my pit is multi purpose so it would be cool to see what custom projects you could offer. I've decided to make all my own stuff as far as panels go but its still great to have another source for this kind of stuff.

If he's using aluminum it might not be that bad.

I send a package or two a year to Germany and the shipping isn't that bad for surface post. Air post is considerably more but you get it in a couple of days.

Welcome aboard Static.

I'm sure your services will be most welcome here

Hello all.
Well I have been scouring the web for cockpit pictures and/or drawings. I have found an F-16 and an F-22 AutoCAD drawing file ( file extension is .dwg). I can read the F-22 file but the F-16 file locks up my AutoCAD program.
Here are 2 links I found that seem very nice. Most of you have probably seen them.
http://www.habu2.net/vipers/viperpits/index.html

And this one here has some awesome pics of panels up close. I had to download the jpgs separate from each other. This is where I found the AutoCAD drawing files. I tried to download the F-16 dwg file but still no luck.
http://www.habu2.net/vipers/viperpits/index.html

I have noticed that in most of the pics I have been looking at of panels that the lettering is applied after coating. This means it may be raised off the surface by a very small amount. Engraving the lettering and filling in the Lettering with white paint would mean that dust and other debris may get stuck in them tiny little spaces. So the other route here would be to actually apply the lettering in some other fashion that would hold up to the wear of rubbing your fingers across it over time. Also you will notice in one of the websites i have posted above in this post that that have the actual ttf (true type font) military spec files you see in the actual F-16. I game going to speak with the higher ups in my company about how much it would cost for me to have panel coated with a black hard anodized coating and the actual military font lettering applied. This would be done outside of my company but we send stuff out everyday to be coated so I may be able to get a deal on it.
This is the panel picture I will get a quote on. Mind that this is only an estimate as just to see what we are talking about cost wise. For actual military spec coatings.

I will get an approximate cost for these 2 panels to be coated and lettered as seen in the pics. Sensor Power & AVTR panels - The file name is "panel -16- .jpg" scroll down about 95% of the webpage http://www.simpits.org/fileproc/showfiles.php and open up the picture "panel -16- .jpg"
Very nice panels this guy is showing by the way.

Ill check back in with you tomorrow. If possible.

Also I have been looking at F-18 panels

Static

I just noticed this. I was looking at my brand new handy dandy TrackIR hat attachment. This is a perfect example of an applied coating to metal. Look at it closely you will see a very small crinkle finish in the coating. Mine is black.
Another example is my beat up joystick. My X-45 Saitek had a blue coating over the top base plate. This is a blue shade of anodizing. Anodizing is usually .0001" to .001" thick. Not very thick but very durable. Some of you may know this but for those of you that don't theres little info for ya.

Static,

Regarding the F/A-18 panels, please see this thread at frugals.

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=44259&goto=newpost

And note that we have copies of the NATOPS in pdf format. I can send that to you, for E/F version (Superhornet). It has foldouts of all the panel. You just take them down to Kinko and have them blown up exactly 400%. It's not CAD, but maybe it will help -- the guy that might be able to help more on that is Pretzel. He's made his own everything, even a HUD. Just see that thread.

Learning a lot from your posts, Static. Glad you are here.

Ripcord

Rip... you send me a jpg file of some F/A-18 MFD Bezels. I am interested in knowing how thick they may be and the contour and channels that may be cut into them. My email is theprofessionalaz@cox.net

I am in the middle of reading the frugal post you suggested.

Have to go to work.

Be back on later at break to check posts.

Also... what the heck is that guy talking about that he contacted the MFD company and it was 15 - 30,000 dollars for? An actual working MFD with a screen?

Yeah, an actual working MFD with a screen (2 of them, in fact, I think), milspec, for use in military training simulators.

In sims the video from an MFD has to come from a completely different world than the bezel and buttons, so a real MFD is not even that useful. For more useful are to-scale parts (including MFD bezels) that look like the real thing. Acting like the real thing then becomes the responsibiltiy of the home cockpit builder.

Like Ripcord, I am interested in F-18E panels. If the lettering is raised instead of engraved or vice versa, I don't care. I am shooting for something that looks like the real thing, but it doesn't have to stand up to a minute comparison with the real thing.

We use 3D Parametric for our project.Olde skool planes rule!!!!What is the maximum depth of your Z axis?
IMG]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/Austiger/Co2Bottlehandle.jpg[/IMG]

We are thinking of going for a cheap small CNC miller/router for small castings etc...It is definately the future...Was talking to a guy today who had restored a Mk XVI Spitfire 20 years ago and he was gobsmacked..Kept on saying,shaking his head "Where was this when I was building my plane?"

Yeah reasonably priced generic or specfic MFD bezels I think would go down an absolute storm!

Something that a pit builder could add to their pit with or without the buttons being attached to electronics (but with the facility to easily add the facility later if required).

A pit builder could then insert a picture to simulate the MFD screen or insert a monitor/screen if the sim allowed glass cockit style stuff...

Static,
These are the same link. Copy/paste error? Can you give me the direct link to that AutoCAD file? I'll try to open it too. I use AutoCAD LT 2004.

I took a look at the F-22 cockpit dwg. It's not very detailed.

If you want me to use the F-18E NATOPS and draw over it to scale in AutoCAD, let me know.

Do you know what this font is?

Hello again everybody.
I will answer a few questions.

Joe - http://www.simpits.org/fileproc/showfiles.php
The AutoCAD Files are on the same page. Search The page for dwg and you will see them. Yes the F-22 file is not very detailed. I can see the F-16 Cockpit in my preview screen in AutoCAD before I try to load it but it wont load up. It just locks. I am using AutoCAD Mechanical Desktop. I wish they put out an IGES file but it is just DWG files. I tried to read them into MasterCAM and it still wont work. MasterCAM has many translators including AutoDesk files.

Again Search the page for ttf. http://www.simpits.org/fileproc/showfiles.php
You will see the ttf files. I use Firefox web browser. Hit CTRL-F and typ in ttf in the blank of the browser at bottom left and keep clicking next till you see it. It is called "F16 Pfont TTF." I should not have said this is the actual milspec ttf as I do not know. I was just over excited to see it. I thought it was.

Internet explore also has a search option similar in one of the top menus on the browser.

----------------------------------------------------------------

453Raafspitty-
I do not own any machines. Where I do work we have 14 Verticle CNC Mills. We also have CNC lathes. I do not run lathes. The mills have up to 30 inches of travel I believe but never had to measure them really. I did drill a 2 inch diameter hole about 10 inches deep in some 6061 aluminum about a month ago.

I hear routers are the way to go on very thin materials. I have see them in action only once. A little boring for my taste but that is a different type of machining than I am used to. I imagine it is the best application for mass quantity thin parts we are talking about. They usually have very large table area so this makes them usefull for cutting on full sheets with minimal waste and saw cutting time for the stock blanks.

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To anybody interested-
I have nothing at the moment to start cutting. Send me some bezel dimensions or a simple panel for starters. Let me see how involved this gets. Also a nice pic if you can. I need outside dimensions. How big the buttons would be. Overall thickness. I can 3-d cut any contour I see in the pic after drawing it. Screw hole size or the screws to go through. This will be a trial run.

Static, I will e-mail you the NATOPS for the F/A-18 E/F. It's in PFD format and all you really want are the foldout pages at the back. But those are the only accurate drawings that I know of. Either take them to Kinkos and blow them up 400%, as Pretzel has done, or get somebody to convert them over to AutoCAD or something. I am unable to help with that.

If you have machine time RIGHT NOW going to waste, then run some F-16 bezels. I say that for 2 reasons. First, more pitbuilders to F-16 pits than any other, so they will get gobble up in a snap. And second, more detailed drawing is available. You should have no trouble finding the drawings you need for that over at viperpits.org -- if not, contact somebody there, maybe Kabar03, and ask for help.

But I definately want F/A-18E MFD bezels, and I know others that do as well.

Ripcord

Ok, got it. I was looking for something with "F16" in the name. I downloaded it and also cannot open it. I too can see it in the preview window. Something is wrong with the file.

I use Firefox web browser. Hit CTRL-F and typ in ttf in the blank of the browser at bottom left and keep clicking next till you see it. It is called "F16 Pfont TTF." I should not have said this is the actual milspec ttf as I do not know. I was just over excited to see it. I thought it was.[/quote]Well, it may be, but we don't know. Someone on another forum asked for the font name, so I thought you might be able to easily provide it.

A Firefox tip you might not be aware of - Tools > Options > Advanced. Check the box for "beign finding when you begin typing". No more CTRL+f.


That's impressive.

You got it. I am printing the NATOPS foldout now at 400% and I'll get you an AutoCAD drawing of the MFD bezel ASAP - at the latest, by the end of the weekend. The MFD bezels are the simplest and the first step in the home cockpit, and you have two guys in this thread that are interested in purchasing them.

I'll get you pics, too. Ripcord, I'm going to send you a PM tonight (my time) with links to some of the best pics I've found so far. We can collaborate and send the best one(s) from both of our collections to Static.

I will provide a link here or email it to you if you wish; PM with your email address. Do you have an requirements/requests for layers, layer names, or anything else of that sort? Should I be working in inches or millimeters?

Joe, thanks for helping him out with the NATOPS to AutoCAD conversion. I appreciate that.

Static, I'm in as Joe said, but I am also assuming the price is going to be a range that is reasonable. I suspect it is, but I'd like to ask about that, just to be sure. I have seen F-16 bezels on E-bay (from Jim Keane), but I can't remember now what they sold for -- but they were definately within reason. Would you please give us an idea what you might charge for these? Either post it here or PM one of us. Or I'll e-mail you, actually.

Also I'll be travelling this week without a lot of access to the the internet, so don't think I'm disinterested if you don't hear from me for a week or so.

Joe, I think the best ones I found were the ones that I posted in that other thread at Frugals. I'll post them again here.

http://www.simpits.org/database/RealCockpits/FA18E_1.jpg
http://www.simpits.org/database/RealCockpits/FA18E-2.jpg
http://www.simpits.org/database/RealCockpits/FA18E_3.jpg
http://www.simpits.org/database/RealCockpits/FA18E_4.jpg

Really it's just that first one that gives you a good view of the MFD panels.

I have one more possibly useful link - these guys actually make and sell these parts for simulators (damn expensive though).

http://www.pdt-usa.com/f-18.htm

As you can see, they provide PDF files on each item. Those have some useful info in there, such as dimensions of usable screen area, things like that.

cheers,

Ripcord

I have no idea what the cost will be. We will work something out that is very reasonable.

I talked to one of the head honchos at my work about a price on the lettering and showed him the F-16 panel pictures. The lettering is silk screened with a very durable paint. The company has to make a master for the screening so that is why it costs so much for just a few. The cost to letter the panels I referred to for the F-16 in the previous post was 85 dollars a piece. I thought it would be expensive. That is per panel. I can cut the lettering in and you or I could fill it with a paint. No problem there.

The price for black anodizing is pretty much free. I just send em in with a batch of other parts and they will dip em for nothing until they keep seeing the same parts coming through in quantity. So that is under control for this current bezel Project.

This is a good pic i found on my journey.
http://www.gregloskorn.com/airplanesfldr/fightersfldr/f-18cockpit2lg.html
http://www.gregloskorn.com/airplanesfldr/fightersfldr/f-18cockpit1lg.html

I am going to start a preliminary drawing of your F18 simulator bezel. I can alter the angles and linear dimensions easily when I get them. I wont have to redraw them from scratch.

I do not post in forums much as you can see. How do you quote what someone says with the box around it?

NATOPS on the way by e-mail.

I figured the set up costs would be high - that's why you need to make a big run. Just keep crunching the numbers. We'll get there.

Ripcord

Ah, looks like we are online about the same time.

This is a legacy hornet cockpit there in your post. That means it's a C/D version, or something prior to the E/F versions, which are Superhornets. You can tell by the UFC, where the radios are. In the Superhornet, you would see the touchscreen UFC there. And the fuel panel in the Superhornet is different (right below the Left MDI). Otherwise, it's hard to tell the difference (for me anyway).

Ripcord

RIP

Ok i need the basic dimensions.

What are the Screen Dimensions? X_____ Y______

What is the length Of bezel _______ not the screen

What is the width Of bezel _______ not the screen

What is the distance ________ from the bottom of the bezel to the break point for the angle that moves towards the top of the bezel.

What is the Length of the middle flat that goes across the top of the bezel ________________ This flat intersects the 2 angles that go down toward the sides of the bezel.

I can figure out the rest .

But if you know..... what are the sizes of the square push buttons?


Going to fly Some Falcon

Ill check back with ya later.

Static,

I'm working on the drawing now. I'll get you all of those dimensions.

Please pay attnetion to the differences bewtween the Hornet (F-18A/B/C/D) and the Superhornet (F-18E/F), as Ripcord mentions.

Consider constructing panels so that they can be backlit. This generally is a type of sandwich construction, where the top panel part has holes cut all of the way through for lettering, and the bottom panel part has no cuts for lettering at all. In between, a translucent white sheet of plastic or other material is placed. This makes lettering white during daylight and allows far backligting when it is dark. I don't know how much this might add to the cost, but it would be nice to at least explore it.

What about something like this.



Not 100% as the original one but quite close.

Regards,
Alex

Alexander,

I did the drawing and sent it to Static already. That's nice, though; where did you get it? Is it CAD or PDF?

No problem Joe.

It is a drawing from the model Im making currently. It is mainly based on NATOPS manual and photos from books and from the net.
You can take a look at http://www.insidethecockpit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41 for some more screenshots.
Im in contact with a guy here to mill the parts for me from plexiglass, dont know how it is called exactly. Already showed him the models. Should be no problem for him. But by the time he is busy with another project and will be aviable only around april, may so I have to wait a bit.

Anyway is great to see the Hornet pit builders are finally starting to show up.

Regards,
Alex

Hey Joe. Drawing is incompatible with my version of AutoCAD. And it wont read into my MasterCAM Design or MasterCAM mill programs. Do you have a translator for your AutoCAD?

Type igesout and see if it will dump an iges file from your program.

The Initial Graphics Exchange Specification (IGES) (pronounced eye-jess) defines a neutral data format that allows the digital exchange of information among Computer-aided design (CAD) systems. From WIKI

If not I think you can save your file for as an old version. I have Mechanical Desktop which is a high end version of AutoCAD. But is older. I never have problems reading in files though.

Load up drawing.
Go to FILE
SAVE AS pick AutoCAD 2000 DXF
I can not read the very old AutoCAD 13 or AutoCAD 14 files.
Or try Mechanical Desktop 4 if that is available.

Or try filling in the blanks I previously posted.

Your exact drawing would be best of course.

Looks nice Alexander....
I have seen your drawings that looks like a nice project you have going.

Static,

New email on the way with AutoCAD 2000 DXF file.

ok that worked.
That files does not look like it is in scale to the real part.
Is that what you need fitted in your pit?
Static

It doesn't look like it's to scale? It's 6.5 inches across and 5 inches tall before the angle, is it not? That's what the NATOPS says...

Ripcord, can you confirm I have the dimensions correct?

I did not print out the NATOPS at kinkos yet.

I have been told from a pretty reliable source that the button opening on the panels is 9.5 centimeter diameter. I will try to verify the drawing dimensions from that info. I was talking with a guy on MultiviperServer last night that knows Ripcord. He gave me some info on it. Sounded very convincing.

I am going to check the drawing to see if the squares are 9.5 cm

According to the NATOPS the buttons themselves (not the openings) are 3/8", or .9525cm. I assume you mean 0.95 centimeters, not 9.5cm, as that would be gigantic.

Sounds like my drawing is correct...

woops sorry i meant .95... heheh... that would be a big button

ok i will get back with ya...
making a file for machining

Any updates, Static?

There's some good info here and here on various ways to create backlit panels.

Static, bumpety bump.

If you were over at Multiviper, you must have been talking to Mike. Nobody else over there knows me (except Joe). He was talking to me about doing a set of F/A-18 panels if we can get enough folks together. It is good that you guys are talking -- he seems to have a lot of experience doing this kind of thing, based on the things he has built for the F-16 pit.

As NATOPS is really the only accurate blueprints we have, then those foldouts are good enough for me. That is the standard, as far as I am concerned - as accurate as we are going to get. If it differs in some way from a real Superhornet, then I doubt there are more than a handful of us that are qualified to tell the difference anyway.

So Static, how goes it? Did you get to the point where you can try to machine something yet? Or still in the design stages?

Ripcord

im getting it going... you will be happy ;0

Static,

Great. As I discussed in my email to you, I guessed on a few of the dimensions for knbos and such to much photographs. I now realize that the NATOPS does provide these dimensions, so if/when we do a second round of this, I will modify the MFDs.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Would it be worthwhile for me to spend some time drawing the rest of the panels in AutoCAD?

NATOPS?

NATOPS = Naval Aviation Training and Operating Procedures Standardization. There is a NATOPS for each navy aircraft. It's basically a really big manual.

And you got to memorize it (if you are a flyer) and periodically get tested on your knowledge of all these details.

Ripcord

dont worry about the rest of the panels yet...
We have machines tied up pretty heavily at work right now. trying to get a spot on one of them in my free time. But if you are bored draw em up. It wont hurt anything to have the drawings as they can easily be reproduced for the machining process.

Hi Guys, after re-reading the thread I thought better to post to a new thread/topic. Static"s ideas for panels and machining the bezels is a bit different than my methods, sorry for posting in this thread.

Thanks Mike.

I'll continue to help you drum up some orders for the Superhornet panels. I've definately taken an interest in this now.

Static, hopefully you'll be able to communicate with Mike and use him as a resource. He's way ahead of you in making panels, but so far they have all been for the F-16. Like I said at the very beginning of this thread, that seems to be what most cockpit builders are flying/building. So I'm hoping you and he will find a market for these F/A-18 panels. I think you will, but not like there is for the Falcon panels.

But I am a carrier ops guy, and I want to press on with this Superhornet pit, even if it takes a couple years to make it happen. That's why I am trying hard to encourage you -- both of you.

Static, keep sending as status reports on your progress -- even if the machines are all busy at your shop at work.

Ripcord

Static,
Understood on the drawings, I will make a complete set based on the NATOPS.

Mike,
Thanks for popping in, nice to see you here.

Excuse my ignorence, but are the f16 panes available for purchase? If so what is available, where, and for how much?
Thanks.

Ebola, go to viperpits and look for Kabar03, or whatever he goes by there. You'll see the indiana state flag. That's Napalm, he is your man. He can help you.

Static, comms check, bud. How you going there?

Ripcord

Static is in the pit.
We are hella busy at work.
Our machines are running 24/7.
Waiting for an opening still.
Sorry i didn't get back with ya earlier.
I have not forgot about you guys !

Right on man -- thanks for checking in!

Maybe I should be investing in your company... then I could retire early and spend my days flying jet fighter sims!

Still thinking about those MFD panels, man. Got plenty of time, just keep checking in to let us know how it goes.

Ripcord

Bump. still interested in those panels.

Ripcord

Me too, of course.

BUMP!!!!!!!

Any info on this subject?? I suspect we're quite a good number of people interested

Yes, would like to know where Static went...

hey static, i am working on buildinh the f18 cockpit. if ur work is good and realistic. i am always willing to get the panels completed. if ur game. then send me an email
and then lets rock this project out. let me know . nvrlvamanbhind1976@gmail.com

i am also building the a10c as soon as the f18 is done here. so if u are in it to win it static. then i am in it for the long haul, and i am currently looking for a
cockpit and cockpit panel fabricator. so rite now i get my panels form finland. but ur in detroit, i would love it if u would like to do business and help me build these 2 cockpits
and who knows. from there that could open up a whole new door way for us both and those who want to build using ur panels and other instruments. i am really interested in
getting my stuff done asap. so please dont be shy. thanx alot i will keep up on the progress here.

Holy necrothread! 11 years! Is that a new record around here?

Like yelling in a forest.