Oculus = dropped

Nothing surprises me there.

From loft;

"He is really cool. But since then, things have changed. Campaign sold, and before the sale Oculus started to say it's not for the hardcore games. At some point they just denied us all to cooperate. The new owner of this device do not see any future for him on the PC. So it seems that there is no Oculus there at the moment, there are a few expensive and useless prototypes. To us specifically, Oculus nobody cares. Therefore, we have lowered the priority of the work on this device to the trash."

First post by loft in this thread

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/5-voprosy-razrabotchikam/page-49

I was right.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14303-oculus-support-looking-iffy/#entry226124

Running a flight sim well in VR means dual 4K or higher images at probably 100fps. I don't think hardware is up to that task yet.

Where the hell are you getting this dual 4k stuff from?

Its 960x1080 per eye, not even full 1080p each.

But amazingly there are other flight sims that support rift right now. So clearly the hardware is there. For some reason bos doesn't. Wonder why... dx9... something... something. ...

Also, you don't actually need to have the game rendering everything at 75 fps (the current standard for low persistence, 90 or 100 fps is what might become the consumer version standard) - there's a trick called asynchronous timewarp which lets you render your game as much as you can, say 35 frames per second, but display it on the Rift at 75 fps - this allows the head tracking to refresh your head position while the scene is rendered less often (at a wide fov). The Prepar3d VR plugin, DCOC,uses that and it lets me play complex addons such as the Aerosoft Airbus X or Captain Sim planes in complete smoothness despite the game actually rendering at 30 or even 20 fps (but if it gets too low you get some artefacts in your peripheral vision).

In short, it's absolutely possible to run complex sims right now with an Oculus Rift, and many developer have found great ways to implement that. I run DCS World in it, I run complex airliners addons + OrbX scenery in Prepar3d with it (but you do need a GTX 970 - what I have - or 980 to do that well). The Il2 BOS team is trying to pretend that the Oculus Rift is not for simulations, but simulations have actually been at the forefront of successful VR implementations, and it extends to other things than flight sim such as motor sims with Euro Truck Simulator 2, Assetto Corsa, Live for Speed, rFactor 2, as well as other great sim-like games such as Elite Dangerous, Lunar Flight. The list of games which I'm enjoying playing on DK2 (to cite some more: Half Life 2, Alien Isolation) is actually long enough that I don't have enough time to play them (and don't play on monitor at all these days). And that's not even mentionning the huge scene of freeware developers experimenting with short games/experiences all the time (eg the Battle of Endor, which is basically an Xwing game in VR). So I find the excuse "it can't be done, it's not for hardcore games" not very convincing, that's all.

To have decent resolution, enough to recognize distant aircraft, yes you'd need at least 4K per eye since the image is enlarged to life size. I've heard 1080p is too blurry. Immersive and cool no doubt, but too blurry. Perhaps a DK owner can comment.

First you say the hardware doesn't exist to run it at 4k.

Then when its pointed out that oculus isn't 4k per eye you claim you have to have 4k to spot contacts.

What are you basing this on?

Because if you can spot an aircraft on a 1080p monitor at several feet away, then why not on a 1080p screen a few cm from your eye and with the apparent size of the screen much larger?

So to increase the apparent frame rate it's just adding frames like 120hz TVs do?

Because if you can spot an aircraft on a 1080p monitor at several feet away, then why not on a 1080p screen a few cm from your eye and with the apparent size of the screen much larger?

Guys,

I know it's fun to ridicule us, but you have no idea how Oculus operates and our experience with them. Loft has every reason to not be thrilled with his experience with Oculus. I'm not too happy with them either. Google translating his words from Russian is not going to tell you the whole story either.

We tried very hard to support their devices as they grew and introduced new units and we did build support for them to the best of our ability (it wasn't perfect but it worked) when we probably should have been focusing on other stuff. They also seemed interested in working with us as I live not far from their offices, but the harder we tried to support and work with Oculus the more difficult it got. This was even before Facebook and before them dropping DX9. I can't say too much in detail due to NDAs, but basically they tried to tell us how we should make our game and unless we made it how they wanted it, they wouldn't work with us. Essentially, their hardware could not run a hardcore sim like ours in 3D with what they deemed acceptable framerates (their level of acceptability, not ours). And the Oculus team seemed puzzled why we had built a custom engine or why we needed a custom sim engine that requires large environments which does not run at a constant 100 FPS like a shooter. Our customers also do not want to necessarily see a human body in our cockpits as they demanded. So we decided to wait a bit until their hardware and software was a bit more mature before we spent any more man hours supporting something that is not even a final product.

However, based on the vibe from Oculus we felt that the final retail Oculus product (or at least their first retail unit) was imminent and their would be no real hurdles to using it with BOS since we had already built initial support. This is why Loft made such comments about our planned support. But then a few things happened - 1. They got bought by Facebook and they no longer cared to talk to us about technical issues. 2. Something changed in their software concerning 32 bit vs. 64 bit which broke our implementation. But we were hopeful a solution could eventually be found. 3. They simply dropped support for DX9 games which ours is one.

So that's the progression from initial support to none. Not our fault and now we are in a tough spot because we do not have the right requirements since they changed them and we don't have the budget to build such support at the moment. There was zero intention by us to not have support. Just a string of unfortunate events. It has nothing to do with us not willfully supporting our users or any other motive.

Oculus seems to work really well with off the shelf engines that most other developers use for shooters and whatnot. We have a custom engine and huge environments and complex physics that suck frames so this is a difficult situation for us developmentally because Oculus is 3D and everything needs to be drawn twice. There seems to be two kinds of developers who have success supporting Oculus. The first is large mega-teams like you find at EA or Valve who can stick a team of people on the implementation task. Then there are tiny teams with super talented individuals who make super niche games that use some off the shelf engine that already works well with Oculus and where meeting budgets or deadlines is not a huge priority for them. We are in a different situation entirely. We are a small team with a super complex product, small budgets, a custom engine and a plan we are in the middle of implementing. Any deviation from that causes major disruptions to planned updates.

Oculus also really seems to want to "change the gaming industry" with VR by changing the requirements for gaming such as only supporting DX10 and above. This puts smaller teams like us in a bind. Oculus is not the cute little startup it once was, they are aiming to be THE VR company and with it comes big corporate policies and choices that affects teams like ours. You can argue coulda, woulda, shoulda all day long, but Oculus has not made it easy on us to support their product and they pulled support for BOS, not us. It's disappointing, but that is the situation.

I am hopeful something can change in the future where we have enough money to build new support for Oculus and make whatever changes necessary to get there. That of course requires more sales.

The VR revolution looks promising and many companies are now involved in this space. It's got a long way to go before it completely supplants your monitor. Maybe it will come fast, maybe not. Time will tell. We have nothing personal against VR and we did give it a go, but when it becomes simpler to add it to our titles I am sure we will support it. VR does not need sims to make it big and whether we need OR support today or tomorrow as some here claim to make it remains to be seen. People have counted us out more than once before and we're still here creating stuff. There are other things I'd like to work on before we worry about OR support again.

The perils of being a sim developer never ceases to amaze me.

Jason

The much wider FOV in the OR means that 1080 in OR is not nearly the same as 1080 on your PC monitor. It's a question of pixels and the area they're spread over - the number of pixels and pixel density. For a full explanation have a read through this: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/when-it-comes-to-resolution-its-all-relative/

1080 in OR just won't cut it for the likes of DCS or BOS. It'll be immersive but you won't be able to see enough detail. What's needed is more resolution and 1440 is the minimum for flight sims. Even that resolution won't be fantastic for spotting but it should be ok and really immersive. 1440 will be fantastic for games like Elite, Star Citizen, etc. The real revolution for hardcore flight sims won't start until resolution hits 4k but that's not going to be OR CV1 - that's probably 2-3 years away.

All that being said there's no doubt that BOS devs are probably missing a trick here and a DX9 based engine just won't cut it for OR down the line. At least DCS understand that this is likely to be a transformative technology and are building it into the long term plans. I think DCS are sure that they'll still be around in that timeframe. The future for BOS is more uncertain right now I'd say and they probably have more important things to concentrate on.

Yes I think we are several years away from VR replacing our monitors. In the meantime BoS has more important things to work on. I'm sure when that day comes they will upgrade for it.

Yes just like they upgraded their old Dx9 engine.....oh. Just like they upgraded the SP campaign from RoF.....oh. Just like they upgraded the HOTAS axis assignments.....oh. Ok then just like the upgraded ME.....oh.

Sorry man, but "upgrade" or "progression" is not a strong point for these devs.....unless you are talking about unlocks.

Of course its not 777/1cs fault. Its the customers, hardware developers, and everyone else s fault their game is turning into poo.

Pretty much a moot point because there was no way they were going to create a new game engine for BOS when they already had one. EDGE is going to be cool but how long has ED been working on that?

You are again having a comprehension issue.

You are talking about 777/1c making "upgrades" when needed. They dont.

Comparing DCS to BoS is rather funny. DCS was first released when? And EDGE is called making progress for the future. BoS is the newest released CFM, yet instead of making a scalable engine they decided to use an old one that limitations are already showing.

No way they would upgrade to a more capable engine? Of course not if you dont plan ahead. The goal was to release a game in a quick amount of time using scraps, with an IL2 name, but no substance. Plan worked well for them.

Personally, I agree they shouldn't bend over backwards for OR. It may or may not make a dent big enough for them to devote time to it.

On the flip side, I think it was a mistake to stick with DX9. DX10 has only been around EIGHT years now, or over 6 by the time EA started. DX11 came out over 4 years ago, and now DX12 is around the corner.


The Jedi Master

Not sure why some of you on here still come here day after day to rage. I took a nice 6 month break, just to come back to the same folks talkin the same trash. You have demonstrated your discontent. Move on already.

Loft just told me that we can offer you guys a deal: you find us a good programmer and we consider such engine upgrade.

Loft has confirmed that they lack good programmers with enough skill to upgrade the engine to higher DX levels, this explains plenty, perhaps even why there is no trim on axis or graphic customisation.

in case you think I'm joking this is a quote from Zak.



http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14556-developer-diary-part-88-discussion/?p=231553

Loft has confirmed that they lack good programmers with enough skill to upgrade the engine to higher DX levels, this explains plenty, perhaps even why there is no trim on axis or graphic customisation.

in case you think I'm joking this is a quote from Zak.



http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14556-developer-diary-part-88-discussion/?p=231553

Typically cynical interpretation of what was an obviously flippant and jokey remark, but one that could actually be an early 'hint' that an upgrade to the engine IS now on the agenda...and most likely because the OR situation has forced their hand.

Blaming hardware and it's producers it's an easy way to get out from delivering what the devs promised.

I would say that they are rather happy that Oculus is dropping support for DirectX9 , easy way out for them from a problem with delivering decent support as promised.

I don't dispute shortcomings and purpose of DK2 itself , but I do want to say I feel disappointed with the way the whole DK2 support was handled by the devs.

Hooves arguments about low resolution are valid but we do have icons and this amazing futuristic technochat. You don't really have to see all the gauges anyway with most of the planes being easy to manage , with mostly throttle and radiators opened.

It's true that you would be lost on Syndicate server ibut that's not the point and what DK2 was created for.

You could still have some fun just taking off and flying , dogfighting with icons , flying Heinkel or Peshka , being a gunner in bomber.

We know DK2 is not going to replace monitors just yet ,but people who went and bought BoS or DK2 on a promise that it will be supported should at least have a chance to make their own opinion.

Hooves , you were a tester in BoS and maybe you were privileged enough to actually see BoS in DK2 so you know more , all I know is that we went from a promise of support to delays and now probable cancellation of support.

Hooves , you say that you speak from experience, I have DK2 too , bought especially for BoS , DCS and Elite are truly amazing experiences, not perfect by any means but at least they managed to implement it in their engine and it works. I had fantastic experiences in Elite and fought and shot down planes in DCS quickmissions , no icons btw.

BoS DK and then DK2 support was shown behind closed doors at press events. So they were confident to show it to 'the press' but not to their clients who paid premium?

How hard was it is to release whatever work in progress version of DK2 support they have , release a disclaimer , saying that this is a work in progress version , this is the best we can do at the moment , there are known problems, we recommend 64bit system and powerful PC to run it .

People would see for themselves what is possible or not possible on their PC , does it run or not and the moved on.

and Bucksnort, so your the Hero of the day "saving" people from this game. thats rich. Sounds to me like you are just harboring sour grapes and want to destroy someone elses work

I wish they would have kept OR support, I wish they would have gone with some other decisions. But its not my game, I didnt build it. If feel the need, Ill vote with my wallet. But launching a crusade to "save" others is a pathetic lie to cover up pure rage issues. There are Plenty of better things to do with your time.

I'm curious Hooves, is this your opinion or the one Jason has paid for with the loan of the OR, the computer equipment, trip to the Hornet etc?

You really should hear yourself. You want a limited dev team to put a bunch of time into a product that wont be supported as soon as the OR software gets updated? Are you serious that your answer is "just dont update the OR software"? As far as gettign kills in DCS, yes I was also able to do this, but I promise you, playing agisnt others with monitors, on Full real servers you dont stand a chance. I enjoy Full real settings, so it does not make any sense to use the OR in its current (possibly even future) state.

Things happen in develpoment. It didnt go their way. Oh well. Why sit here and slag them for someone elses decision is beyond me.

Also, a DX-11 upgrade wont make any difference at the distances we are flying at. So no, you wouldnt be able to tell the differnce between dx 9 and dx 11. Your cockpits might look nicer though.

and Bucksnort, so your the Hero of the day "saving" people from this game. thats rich. Sounds to me like you are just harboring sour grapes and want to destroy someone elses work

I wish they would have kept OR support, I wish they would have gone with some other decisions. But its not my game, I didnt build it. If feel the need, Ill vote with my wallet. But launching a crusade to "save" others is a pathetic lie to cover up pure rage issues. There are Plenty of better things to do with your time.

I'm curious Hooves, is this your opinion or the one Jason has paid for with the loan of the OR, the computer equipment, trip to the Hornet etc?

I wish they would have kept OR support, I wish they would have gone with some other decisions. But its not my game, I didnt build it. If feel the need, Ill vote with my wallet. But launching a crusade to "save" others is a pathetic lie to cover up pure rage issues. There are Plenty of better things to do with your time.

Curious to hear about any interactions you've had with the russian development team.

They certainly have an interesting approach to customer relations.

What i also noticed was your clever ploy to somehow indicate that i am some stooge for Jason because i got to partake in a fun event or get to try out some hardware.

And i find it pretty funny that you think strong arming me with "what you know" will do anything other than make you look ridiculous.

You obviously didn't pay much attention to the moderators comment on your previous post for you to make such assertions to my motives for posting a simple question. Did you receive items from Jason? if you did then that was your choice but don't be surprised if some people think maybe that compromises your opinion, I asked a simple question for clarification. Far from finding it funny you seem a little angry, I wouldn't want to contribute to your stress and you could have left your answer at the first paragraph in your first reply. I don't believe what you or Abortedman said publicly about the unlocks was in any way overly critical, if anything from what I remember of them they were carefully worded responses supporting the overall feeling towards the unlocks. Removing your access to the server was an over the top reaction in my opinion and only hurt 1C/777 in the long run.

AS I said before, I will discuss what happened. There were other communications other than Emails, and the access to the server was more of an ultimatum. An Ultimatum that AM and I took, largely on my part that the stress involved was over my threshold for a video game.

Yeah I did receive items from Jason, I helped Test the DK1 for him as he did not have the time, I however purchased my own DK one and subsequent DK2, I was trying very hard to convince the team in Moscow to fully back this peripheral. When My joystick died, he lent me an Av8tor joystick. When my kid put a gash in my monitor he let me have 2 old ones he wasnt using anymore. These are things that friends do for friends. I also purchased several items from him, like a new mouse and the game itself.

What I fail to see here is the reason for your malice. I have been just as critical of straight up bad decisions made by the devs, I have been critical to how Jason interacts with the public. All of these things are going to happen during development of ANY product with this passionate of an audience.

Are you trying to tell me that Jason cannot have friends? That he cant help someone out when they need a hand?
And furthermore what is it to you? Are you angry that I am friends with him and you aren't? None of this has any bearing on what has happened, or what will happen in the future to this product. Other servers took our place and they have continued to provide custom missions. Jason remains as dedicated to producing something good, (though he has to fight for it which is a bummer), and I remain his friend, though not as willing to give up my time in the current development cycle. Perhaps that might change later. But again I ask, what is it to you? Why do you care SO much about what has transpired between Jason, AM and I?

Im perfectly calm. Forgive me for reading into your posts. But you'll also have to understand that im pretty tired of the drama. If you are truly not full of discontent than i presume youll read my posts at face value and stop applying blanket critisism to anyone that has something positive to say about Jason or BoS. Afterall there are still many positive things in the sim. And Jason is trying to work on bringing all of us a good product.

Lets just hope we can get Loft on board.

Imagine you are Jason. You have a job, you want to help provide your team with jobs but your team now starts overriding you because you are no longer the lead. You are but a vote. But you have a family to support and need the money, just like everyone else. You fight and fight for things that should be common sense. But you get denied. What do you do? Jason is a business man who is in a precarious position. But he is passionate about flight sims and wants this to work.

Hooves,

Thanks for sharing your impressions of the WIP OR in BOS. I don't understand why the team just didn't say that to begin with? They implied that OR was working well and only needed a little bit of tweaking.

If they don't have the resources to keep working on it, then why not reach out to the the community and see if they can put some effort into it? There are folks who would like to work with them on these types of things.

Time will tell.

S~