The word 'flak' was not used in WWI

I noticed that in 1915 (in WOFF) I was warned about enemy 'flak'. This word should be changed to 'archie' which is what the WWI RFC pilots used. 'Flak' comes from the German abbreviation for Flugzeugabwehrkanone, or "aircraft defense cannon". 'Flak' was rapidly adopted by the Allies in WWII for obvious reasons, but it was not used in World War One at all. Let's get the immersion right!

Jim, are you saying that the Germans didn't use the work Flak? It is of German origin and seems plausible.
I can fully understand that the English used "Archie".

ack-ack

Germans often used "Fliegerabwehr" (what simply means "Aircraft Defence Fire") or "Bodenbeschuss" (what simply means "Fire from the Ground" or "Ground Bombardment")

'Flak' was only used by Allied forces in WW2. The WWI word was 'Archie' (if you read the books you will see this is right). The Germans MAY have used the word 'flak' in WWI but I don't think so. Come in Olham

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In all of the hundreds of contemporary WWI aviation books, pilot's diaries and personal journals I've read over the years, both Entente and Central, (note I did not say Allied and Axis as these are also WWII terms), I've never once run across the term 'flak'. It is not in the WWI vernacular, IMHO.

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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flak

According to Webster, the first know use of "flak" was 1938.

So it should be removed from WOFF. That shouldn't be difficult.

Jim, I didn't live back then, so all I know is second-hand knowledge from books.
But I just looked through Otto Fuchs' book "Wir Flieger", and there the squadron
leader asked him, if they had received much "Flakfeuer" (anti-aircraft gunfire).

You weren't alive then?
Jesus, I thought you invented the German air force...

When I look into the mirror before shaving in the morning,
I often think the same, Trooper!

He did. He's just being modest.

Yes, there is no doubt that the Germans used such a term, because it comes from German in the first place. But the RFC did not. So it should not be used to me who is (supposedly) an RFC flier.

I only read "No parachute" and "Sagittarius Rising", where everyone -
as far as I remember - always said "Archie".

In the countless WWI books I've read (about RFC) I've only heard seen it as Archie never Flak.

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Jim, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I've never seen the term 'flak' used in English or German writings from WWI, only the full 'Flakfeuer' as noted by Olham. If it was in common use by the Germans during the Great War I should think it would show up in books and journals of the day and if it has I would like to know which ones. I am still convinced the term 'flak' was not coined until many years after WWI.

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Jim

May I suggest you add your request to the "Wish List" so the devs can address it as they see fit.
I certainly dont know if the term Flak is a universal woff response for both sides or if it can be adjusted zeparately for each side.

Just let the devs deal with it now.

best regards

The Germans certainly used the abbreviation "Flak" in WW1, but it was used to refer to the guns themselves, not anti-aircraft fire in general.

The first German AA guns were actually designed to shoot down balloons and airships. The Germans used the abbreviation "BAK" (Ballonabwehrkanone, anti-balloon cannon) for such guns. Practically nobody had expected aircraft to play any significant role in warfare, so the word "Flak" came in use only later during the war.

As to the word's usage in WOFF, I wouldn't rank this particular issue very high on the list of priorities...

I for one will not play WOFF again until they get this sorted out...or until the next chance I get to sit at my computer for more than 5 minutes.

Mmuahahahahaaa!!!

Cant we all just get along ?

[/quote]

I for one will not play WOFF again until they get this sorted out...or until the next chance I get to sit at my computer for more than 5 minutes. [/quote]

Can we make that into a poster? Take the pledge?

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I'd buy that poster.

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Hasse, I also would not rank this issue anywhere near the top of the list of priorities.

To your statement that the Germans certainly used the word "flak" in WWI do you have any contemporary writings that support this? Again, I have never seen the term used in any of the WWI period literature, reports, tech articles, newspapers, etc, that I have read over the years. If you have any primary sources written during the war that use the term I really would like to read them. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the Germans used the term in WWI but without proof it is only supposition at this point.

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I concur with Louvert..FLAK was a WW2 coinage..not mentioned in anything I have read over the years RE: ww1.

As I recall,the term "Archie" came from a line in a very popular British music hall comedy of the time, where a female character uttered the the words, "Archibold..please!" when abruptly surprised. Hence the slang use by the flyers when they were 'abruptly surprised'.

That's what I recall having read as the origin of use..

I think it was in reference to a popular song, "Archibald, Certainly Not!"

http://monologues.co.uk/George_Robey/Archibald_Certainly_Not.htm

Huh, apparently it's believed this fella first uttered it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyas_Borton

(with slang, I think it's probably hard to say who said it first, but at least someone thinks it was this guy!)

No, you may be misunderstanding me. I don't mean "flak" in the sense that it was used in WW2, when it meant anti-aircraft *fire* especially in Allied usage. The original German word refers to the anti-aircraft *gun*.

What I mean is that the German army used abbreviations for their different weapon systems. "BAK" and "Flak" are just examples of this system, there were many others. "MG" for Maschinengewehr, "FH" for Feldhaubitze, "FK" for Feldkanone, "Mrs" for Mörser, "MW" for Minenwerfer - etc. etc. etc.

In practice, you have names for weapon systems like this: 10.5 cm FH 98/09, which means a 10.5 cm field howitzer, year model 1898 / 1909.

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Hasse, perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I am familiar with the German abbreviation system and in this discussion "FLAK" would stand for Flugzeugabwehrkanone, (FLugzeugAbwehrKanone). However, it is my understanding that this particular weapon name, and thus its abbreviation, did not exist until sometime in the late 1930's. Again, until I can see a written document from WWI that uses the word "flak", or for that matter "Flugzeugabwehrkanone", I will continue to maintain my position. Flak was not used in WWI.

Great discussion by the way.

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Well, unfortunately I don't have access to any *original* WW1 documents. I really wish I had, but I doubt that many people have.

But the name was indeed used in Germany during WW1. (Fliegerabwehrkanone or Flugabwehrkanone, not Flugzeugabwehrkanone.) I've seen it mentioned many times in history books and weapon abbreviations, like the famous "flaming onion" gun, the 3,7 cm Maschinenkanone M-Flak, or the 8.8 cm Krupp AA gun from 1917, the 8,8cm K.Zugflak L/45. These are not names given to the guns in the 1930s, but contemporary names used in WW1. I'm not sure about English language books though. They may not use these names.

There were also special schools in Germany for the training of flak crews. They were called "Flakschule". Here's a link to a film from the German Bundesarchiv showing the "flaming onion" gun in action in a Flakschule:

http://www.filmportal.de/video/flakschule-in-blankenberghe

I was able to find a pic from a 1912 book that shows one BAK gun. Poor quality, but readable. The name "Ballonabwehrkanone" is printed under the lower right gun.



Source: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=148740&start=150

And yes, I also love these discussions.

Searching for flak in German Wikipedia, I found this:

"Als Hauptziel sahen militärische Taktiker zunächst weniger das gegnerische Flugzeug, sondern den Fesselballon oder das Militärluftschiff, daher setzte sich anfänglich die Bezeichnung BAK für Ballonabwehrkanone durch. Sie wurde im Mai 1916 in Flugabwehrkanone geändert."

Basically it tells that the German military called their anti-aircraft weapons BAKs at first, because balloons and airships were expected to be used a lot in war, not aircraft. But in May 1916, the designation was changed to Flugabwehrkanone.

Source for this is Hermann Cron: Geschichte des Deutschen Heeres im Weltkriege 1914–1918. Berlin 1937, S. 215 (Neudruck, Osnabrück 1990).

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OK Hasse, you're starting to turn my opinion, and thanks for the correction on "Flugzeugabwehrkanone", (my German is beyond terrible). However, the Cron source you cite was written in 1937 and it is an unfortunate truth that too often historians have applied terms and ideas in use at the time of their writing backwards into the period they are writing about. I have seen countless such anachronistic occurrences over the years. So, again, find a primary source written during the war that uses any of the flak-related terms you've listed above, or better yet the word 'flak' itself, and I will concede.

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I have seen the word "Flak" umpteen times in the WW1 German Kofl 4. and 6. Armee reports, which I own. "Flak," on its own, or as part of another compound word, such as "Flaktreffen," "Flakzüge," "Flakfeuer," etc. Point being, the word "Flak" DID exist in World War One.

From a Kofl 4. Armee report dated 13 July 1917:

Well, that's definitely an original document! Thanks for sharing it, JFM.

Geez JFM;

That must be one hell of a library room you have. I would love to go through it!

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Outstanding Jim! OK, now I'm convinced and I shall take my lumps ... and buy the next round to boot.



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Ummh; Can I have a stout?

Interesting vid.

Looks like those things had a high tendency to jam. They looked to have a helluva time clearing jams and the video is regularly cut where they were bad ones.

Yes, it was still new technology and must have suffered from teething problems.

But when they managed to hit something, those shells must have shredded the canvas crates into small pieces!

Cripes - did you see how the whole gun seems to be jumping when it fired?
I wonder how much accuracy was lost by that. When the muzzle moves 1 inch,
that might be 200 yards at 300 Meter altitude?

I must apologise for starting such a discussion, though I must say I have enjoyed every post!

I do have a knack for spotting anachronisms, like filter cigarettes being lit with gas lighters in WWII or even WWI.
And when watching 'A bridge too far' I noticed that the beautiful C47s were being held by chocks that didn't come into RAF service until the middle or late 50s. I know because I have pulled a lot of those same steel chocks about by their chains.

Some anachronisms are forgiveable - like the Fokker Triplanes in 'The Blue Max' - at least one had a real rotary engine, but the other aircraft had radials. As rotaries are like the proverbial rocking horse poo they did well to have one at all.

Oh, and another famous one is in 'Ice Cold in Alex' which is set in about 1942 where down a side street can be seen a Land Rover which was first made in 1948.

Well, working rotaries might have been rare by then - that's excuseable.
But if I remember it correct, then there are much worse mistakes.
Like guns, which don't have any feeding belts - but they still fire!

The film was probably made by the same people who made John Wayne Westerns, Olham. John could fire one bullet and kill three Indians with it! ahhh Hollywood.

Well, we all know: he wasn't any cowboy - he was John Wayne!

Ah, but I was a 'sumpy' or 'oiler' in the RAF - not a 'plumber'

The flak word may have been around in WW1 but I cannot recall a pilot using it in all the books I've read from that period.

The Duke's pistols just never needed reloading, Hellshade. You're thinking about Joey Bishop as Dean Martin's Indian sidekick in "Texas Across the River". I've only seen the movie once, but the scene was hillarious. Typical wagon train attack. Wagons in a circle barricade, everyone firing. Martin walks to Bishop's position and Bishop fires...three Comanche fall. Bishop fires again...three Comanche fall (the same three, btw). Later the movie cuts back to Bishop who fires again and the same three Comanche fall. He pulls the trigger and the gun is empty, so he throws it....


Do I have to say what happens next?


**edit**
I should say "The Duke's pistols never needed reloading except as a plot device." sorry

I used to count the number of shots they could fire with a six-shooter without reloading. Sometimes over 20. My sister, however was horse-mad and used to complain that the posse changed horses from one shot to another. Most people (including me) wouldn't notice.

The earliest use of "FlaK" must be at least prior to 1923, as there was a 2cm FlaK 28 introduced (and immediately outlawed by the Versailles Agreement, the weapons being sold to Switzerland).

The WW1 "flaming onion" gun was also referred correctly as the Masch-FlaK (presumably machine anti aircraft gun, which might permit a hand loaded weapon to be referred to as merely "FlaK")

Richthofen uses in his Book in Chapter 26 the Word "Ballonabwehrgeschütze".

On the whole the language is quite appropriate to the time, but I do find it quite jarring when more modern words of phrases are used. One phrase that certainly was not used was "listen up". This is very definitely from the middle of the twentieth century, and American in origin. As an eighty year old englishman, I regard the "up" part as entirely superfluous - plain old "listen" is quite good enough to summon attention!

I have no doubt what you say is correct. The original point is that the RFC pilots always talked and wrote about 'Archie' and never used the word 'Flak' which the RAF did use after about 1938 and through that war.

In a similar vein, the USAF in Vietnam started to use 'AAA' instead of 'AA', possibly because they were up against SAM2's as well as guns. This is a good example of how the US beaurocracy will never use 2 words when 3 will do.

Well, I did finally find out where "ack-ack" came from. It seems before there was an international phonetic alphabet, everyone had the their own. The British phonetical 'A' was 'Ack.' There for, AA became "ack-ack." So that is not rally a slang term for AA, it's the phonetic for AA. And I have to agree with everyone else, most of the books I've read that were written on the subject, either during, or shortly after typically refer to AA as "Archie."

Yeah, calling it "Anti-Aircraft" wasn't enough for our government. They had to refer to it as "Anti-Aircraft Artillery." Why? I don't know, because. Triple Play!!! (Abbot and Costello reference. )

I know..."He's on first!"

Yes, the British radio phonetic alphabet at that time had 'Ack' for A. In WWII it became 'A for Apple' before being taken over by the NATO standard 'Alpha'.

In WWI the fitters and riggers were called 'Air Mechanics' which was shortened to 'Ack Emma'. This is possibly where the RAF slang term 'erk' came from for an airman (not an NCO or an Officer). But don't quote me as nobody seems to know where the term came from. I think the word went out of use sometime in the 50s anyway.

And the USAF don't say 'Alpha Alpha Alpha' for AAA. They say 'triple A' which sounds much better I suppose.

Of course, that makes it sound like you can pull over to the nearest cloud and wait for a tow truck if you have engine trouble. But I guess that's better than "AA", which makes it sound like they're all a bunch of drunks.


pilots, a bunch of drunks??? on second thought....

If you can believe 'Goshawk Squadron' it seems a lot of them were drunk. One mistake the author makes is stressing the effects of Castor oil on their digestions which was not a problem with in-line engines with long exhaust pipes as used in the SE5a. It was a problem with all the rotary engines of the time.

He also stresses that their aircraft were obsolete in early 1918 which was not true at all.

But the book is still fun to read, although I prefer 'War Story' which is much more accurate and less sensational.

I was too lazy to go through all six pages, so someone may have posted this already...

The word "Archie" stems from a then-favorite dancehall hit titled "Archibald, certainly not!"

The word "Flugabwehrkanone" and thus "FLAK" was officially adopted in 1916 by the German Air Service to replace the older "BAK" which had been in use until then.

I don't know about the origin of "AAA", but I would assume it stands for "Anti-Aircraft Artillery".

Right on all three points thomas. I should have named this thread "the word 'flak' was not used by the British in WWI", but at the time I didn't know that the Germans used it at that time. You live and learn...