Air turbulence maybe too much?

Feature: Implemented dynamic air turbulence which makes each craft look more real as the pilots jostle to keep formation individually

After watching a few videos of custom WW1 aircraft built and flown by folks, it seems this is slightly overdone in BH&HII. I didn't notice any WW1 aircraft bounce around in the wind like it is in the game. Maybe I'm mistaken, but it wouldn't seem the wind would cause these planes to bounce around while flying straight and level. Maybe flying through a thunderstorm would cause this exaggerated effect.

I would guess maybe the wind would affect these planes depending on altitude as well as combat maneuvers?

@Orbyx, while JJJ's MultiMod, as far as I know, is not yet compatible with BHAH.II - that mod. allows for changes in wind/turbulence settings - there is another solution but it takes some time and intuitive work, testing, etc.

See this link:

https://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4561942/re-wish-list-for-woff#Post4561942

Changing the bump settings in simulation.xml, and then loading the file via JSGME does the trick (can confirm that it works in my PE 5.03 and FrankenWOFF 4.18 installs). It overrides the MultiMod settings that way, and of course also works even if you are not using the MultiMod.

Try also setting the "wind smooth" period to something like 10 or 12 seconds, etc., for more variety - it's worth a test. I am using such tweaked settings in FrankenWOFF and am very pleased with the results - I even have nice side forces working against the fuselage, and slightly ruining bullet trajectories, in windy conditions - great fun when in a dogfight. Avoid going over a value of 300 with the localWindScaleHorz_pct entry or it may negate/cancel out the side-wind effects.

Same rule applies to the localWindScaleVert_pct entry. For the other entries, with the exception of "windsmoothperiod," feel free to expand them to about 350 or so - recommended is to try increments of +/- 20 to 50, or so, for the entries, until happy with the results. For windsmooth, I think anything over 20 secs. is probably too much (can be brought down to as little as 1 or 2 secs. if you want constant vibration, buffeting, and instability, as in RoF).

As always, make a backup of the stock simulation.xml file before changing things.

Happy flying,
Von S

I am far from an expert on this field, but last flights in formation April1917 , with AP on were bumpy to say the least, to the point that collisions were always a possibility in formation flying. I was amazed how IA managed to avoid them and mantain formation. The moment I disengaged AP I was able to maintain a much more stable flight path while my mates still struggled to fly level for a single second.

Before tweaking things to death, you need to consider that what you see in airshows or replicas etc. is mostly under best flying weather. I wouldn't take out my selfmade vintage aircraft out on shaky weather. Then during the war it was something completely different because there is a war going on and tasks to fullfil.

Besides, did you try flying in formation good weather in BHAH2? You will notice that there is much less buffeting etc.

I have flown gliderplanes many times. Also with all kind of aerobatics etc. While glider aircraft look so gentle and calm when watching from the ground, you would be surprised how much it is shaking and buffeting and jumping around in real. Actually it's not overdone but could even be more than represented. So much that sometimes when landing into the wind you might get thrown backwards etc.

All good points to consider before modding a solution Creaghorn!

I think this new feature is SUPERB, speaking as a guy that spent a decade IRL flying formation. Formation flying is dynamic even while flying in totally smooth calm air, which it rarely is. Air is a fluid, think of it like heating a kettle of water. Early in the morning, the air is calm (like a cold kettle) as the day progresses the sun warms the air, and reflected heat from the ground adds more heat to the air. This uneven heating causes updrafts and downdrafts. Glider pilots know this and typically get their best soaring in the afternoon. All this just to back up my opinion that this feature was a great addition.

I posted on another forum

"Creaghorn:
While glider aircraft look so gentle and calm when watching from the ground, you would be surprised how much it is shaking and buffeting and jumping around in real."

Yes! And that you can also find out with small / sporting aircraft with little weight. It is difficult to see from the ground the shaking and buffeting the pilot has to work with.

Greetings

As the guys say we think it's fairly realistic and it will vary depending on weather of course. If you personally don't like it you can turn it off for the player craft only in workshop for example. We'd recommend you don't but the option is there. No need to start hacking the sim at this stage but each to their own.

Perfect! thank you all for your replies and sharing your experiences.

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While late to this party I will also agree that BHaH II has it right, based on my own ultralight flying experiences. As others here have noted, it may look smooth up there from the ground but it most certainly is not, even on a relatively calm day.

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Personally..i fricken love it, it's what i've been waiting for in WOFF for years. Triple J did a stellar job in his mod, OBD took it up another level.

I concur Lou having done so when I was a fit and handsome young buck with long flowing locks. Fun like nothing else. And then I woke up one day after the passage of time and ... well ...

Ahem .... I find nothing wrong with the air turbulence. Modders! Stand down. Relax. Make a cuppa tea.

I agree with other ... the turbulence is excellent as modelled and no need to change a thing.

Having flown the friendly skies in a 172 with my brother when he was stationed at Baden-Söllingen, I can tell you that said skies can be lumpy, even on a good day
Cheers,
shredward

It's perfect. I absolutely love how the air feels so alive.

I'm with you, Ace, There used to be complaints about a cardboard flight model. That feeling is completely gone now. I think it's brilliant just the way it is.

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By the way ...
yesterday on the highway I have had the idea, that you can turn off the "Wind Effects Player" during deep winter-time to simulate no thermic turbulence (and in winter you have a little wind normally).
And then -like a second step- I have thought about the turbulence depending on the seasons.
Only for example (in a range off No, Less, Normal, More, High):
spring > normal/more thermic turbulence
summer > high thermic turbulence
autumn > less thermic turbulence
winter > no thermic turbulence

I like the new wind/turbulence-factor in BH&H II very much, because it is much more realistic. And to be honest I haven't had time enough to test the wind/thermic turbulence during different weather and different seasons thoroughly so far. It is only an idea to make more differences depending on the seasons (and I don't know, whether it is possible with the system to make such differences between wind / thermic turbulences or between the seasons in relation to thermic turbulence).

Greetings!

Hello fellow WOFFers,

As per Becker's interesting advice, have now finished with my little tests with different bump values in the simulation.xml file, in FrankenWOFF 4.18 - for those who are running UE/PE WOFF, make three copies of the simulation.xml file, set up to be loadable via JSGME, etc. - and implement the following three changes, per weather type:

for spring/summer

<Bumps
windSmoothPeriod_secs="3"
localWindScaleVert_pct="190"
localWindScaleHorz_pct="280"
localWindFieldPerAircraft="y"
clearTurbulenceScale_pct="260"
cloudTurbulenceScale_pct="350"
groundBumpsVerticalScale_pct="330"
groundBumpsPitchScale_pct="170"
groundBumpsRollScale_pct="380"
/>

for autumn

<Bumps
windSmoothPeriod_secs="8"
localWindScaleVert_pct="170"
localWindScaleHorz_pct="250"
localWindFieldPerAircraft="y"
clearTurbulenceScale_pct="210"
cloudTurbulenceScale_pct="330"
groundBumpsVerticalScale_pct="290"
groundBumpsPitchScale_pct="140"
groundBumpsRollScale_pct="360"
/>

for winter

<Bumps
windSmoothPeriod_secs="12"
localWindScaleVert_pct="120"
localWindScaleHorz_pct="210"
localWindFieldPerAircraft="y"
clearTurbulenceScale_pct="150"
cloudTurbulenceScale_pct="240"
groundBumpsVerticalScale_pct="230"
groundBumpsPitchScale_pct="90"
groundBumpsRollScale_pct="280"
/>

All three settings were tested with BB's few small clouds variant, and also BB's large dark majestic clouds variant. Winds/turbulence vary by weather/cloud type, further changed by JJJ's MissionEd if you use it - but the three settings above seem to give good variety, more specifically, different levels of amplification. Also take note of subtle side-winds pushing left/right against the fuselage with the modified settings above, more so in spring/summer, less so in the winter. Bullet trajectories are also slightly affected by the wind, especially in spring/summer. The settings will probably work okay in BHAH.II as well, but make a copy of the stock simulation.xml file in BHAH.II before attempting the tweaks above, to load via JSGME - and also be aware that BHAH.II turbulence/winds are already amplified in stock form.

Some bonus info. for those running specifically UE/PE WOFF:

for slightly different gun-jam values and varied frustration, try:

gunsJam="y"
unjamProbability_frac="0.35"
unjamMinInterval_secs="5"

for individual fighter_v_fighter settings, to have them still fighting you even if lightly/moderately damaged, before turning home, try:

fightThreshold="-2"
withdrawThreshold="-3"

for slightly more varied AI maneuvers/responses, with novices sometimes being more clumsy, try:

<Maneuvers
acePlusEffort="1"
aceEffort="0.95"
veteranEffort="0.9"
noviceEffort="0.8">

And that will be it for my tweaks suggestions for a while - have to finish up with some things in FE2, and also to spend more time flying and less time tweaking.

EDIT: Several entries in the bumps section of the simulation.xml file are changed after a flight in WOFF, even after the settings specified above are loaded via JSGME - however, the windsmoothperiod setting remains as loaded via JSGME, as do threshold values for fighter_v_fighter AI - so best is to use such side-loading of relevant values anyway, via JSGME, in conjunction with the wind/turbulence settings in JJJ's MultiMod (and which change some of the bumps values) - for the full effect to be present in missions in WOFF.

Cheers all and enjoy the turbulence,
Von S

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Dead-sticking it in FrankenWOFF 4.18 through some subtle winter turbulence; medium-winter textures are a mix of full and medium, stock PE winter textures, for variety

Very nice detective work, von S! The simulation file contains a lot of interesting goodies, but as he says, always make a backup first before editing!

Interesting, I'd like to learn how you go about testing these values, especially the maneuvers? Is there a range you've established on the minus and positive sides or are these random numbers? ditto for the gun jam and wind bump values.

If you don't want to post it here, then I don't mind continuing this discussion via PM when you have time.

Joe,

I originally discovered (after OBD, of course) that the fightThreshold and withdrawThreshold had an effect on the AI's willingness to fight. The normal setting is 0 and -1, I think, but this makes the AI more timid. I found that settings of -2 and -3 made the AI more willing to stay in the fight for a longer period of time. Of course, this was all tested on WOFF UE and PE, so I don't know what effect it might have on the more aggressive AI in BHaH2. You can also try -1 and -2, if you wish. Keep in mind that these are global settings, so it will effect the behavior of all AI fighters (there are separate settings for recon and bombers).

I even made a mod so you can set the scout AI to either timid, normal, or bold, but I don't know how to program it to randomly choose which level to set. JJJ could probably do it, but he has been very busy, so I haven't asked him.

VonS is the expert on the wind settings, although I know a little about them. I can tell you that these are NOT random numbers.

Hallo @vonS,

thank you for this very interesting work! I will try it in a quiet moment (to avoid mistakes ... ).
I have only one question: is there a connection between all these factors / parameters to the windspeed in the briefing? I suppose not, the "wind affects player" is a way "to feel" wind / turbulence, independing on the briefing. Right?

Greetings!

Hello Becker, from what I've been able to test in QC mode and also in campaign flghts, these parameters (specifically the bumps section) affect wind and turbulence when flying, but wind speed in briefings, also wind direction, etc. - are all determined either by WOFF, or further by JJJ's MissionEd if you follow/allow for the custom wind settings within the MissionEd, in conjunction with BB's clouds mod. (ver. 2.9 or 3.0) that should also be activated via JSGME in order for the full variety of winds and wind speeds, and weather types, to be accessible.

My comments, by the way, are only with reference to UE/PE vers. of WOFF - I am assuming that the directions will all work similarly in BHAH.II too, but there may be a further amplifying effect to the bumps section because wind/turbulence effects, judging from the posts in this thread, are already stronger in BHAH.II when compared to stock settings in UE/PE. Always make a backup of the stock simulation.xml file in whatever ver. of WOFF you are running, before attempting the tweaks. I recommend setting such tweaks up to be JSGME-friendly (much easier to load/swap things out that way).

Cheers all,
Von S

@vonS:
Okay, thanks for info.
OBD has made a great work with " wind affects player" in BH&H2; no real reason to change anything. It was more a question of perfectionism. I will keep your interesting work in the background.

So I end the topic for myself now.

Greetings and happy flying!

Really the default setup in WOFF BH&H II is now pretty good, no really need to fiddle with wind or bumps in this version. Bear in mind bumps can effect various aircraft at various fields differently on take off and landing too in any version.

Thank you for the detailed explanation, but now....I'm at a loss....

I compared the simulation.xml file between PE and BH&HII. There is basically very little difference in wind and combat maneuvers. However, gun jams seemed adjusted. Which makes me think that a large portion of the features/changes are not in the files, but maybe hardcoded.

@Orbyx, I am 99% sure that fundamental changes in winds, turbulence, and of course the new FM/DM changes - have happened under the hood, so to speak, in BHAH.II (I am assuming via code in the WOFF.exe itself). Pleased to see that my own gun jam/unjam adjustments in FrankenWOFF are closer to default specs. in BHAH.II - regarding winds, there is some difference in terms of cloud turbulence scales, I see from those pics., and also in the bumpsrollscale values - I would guess that turbulence scales have been reduced in the xml file since already stronger under the hood in BHAH.II. Groundproximitythreshold I haven't touched in my files. I am assuming that it works in conjunction with AI minimum alt. that I set via JJJ's MultiMod (have set the latter to 50 meters in my case).

Groundbumpsrollscale is somewhat of an ambiguous entry - it does not necessarily result in immediate rolling, left or right, but instead seems to be a kind of buffeting effect that very gradually turns an aircraft's left or right wing slightly up, so that it veers in one or the other direction - based on my observations in WOFF 4.18 and 5.03. I can't comment more thoroughly on any of those other numbers in the BHAH.II pics. that you have kindly provided since I have yet to purchase it.

Happy flying and tweaking,
Von S

Wind turbulence data is overwritten in simulation.xml file before each mission in respect to mission weather state (light/medium or heavy). However, I do not want to reveal more to do not spoil your immersion. I am going to update Multimod for BHaH2 compatibility, so you will get a chance to adjust wind turbulence levels per your wish. For example, Global Wind Scale Horizontal Value in heavy weather is rather too high by my taste (or aircraft roll damping value is too low) now resulting in excessive roll oscillations.

I think the wind is very under powered when it comes to flying into a strong headwind etc. Many pilots experienced a horrible time trying to get back across entente front line due to strong winds. This I don't experience in game.

Far more real feeling now.

Yes, wind is underpowered, because otherwise the lateral turbulence would be unflyable and kill AI pilots. That is why I implemented the wind speed control to Mission Editor and turbulence settings to Multimod. I personally prefer higher wind speeds and low or moderate turbulence bumpings.

OK I see.

Thank you JJJ for those clarifications - I have also noticed that some of the bumps entries are modified further via missions, also via the MultiMod, whereas other entries, such as the windsmooth entry, in secs., stays the same after a modified simulation.xml file is loaded via JSGME. So, in short, those who enjoy tinkering should modify/load simulation.xml files via JSGME for good measure, and also toggle wind settings in the MultiMod, to make sure that you are getting customized wind effects in missions in WOFF UE/PE. By the way, for convenience, below is a pic. that includes the settings I currently use for spring/summer, autumn, and winter winds/turbulence, via JJJ's excellent MultiMod (I use such settings in conjunction with loading the different simulation.xml files via JSGME, as specified in my various posts above, in this thread).

Happy flying all,
Von S