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Climbout

Posted By: vonBaur

Climbout - 12/02/19 01:50 AM

Not sure if it's been addressed before but why must all climbouts be done over a spot a few kilometers from base? And why always to several thousand meters, even when the target is a balloon?

I can kind of see climbing if you're attacking a ground target that's significantly behind enemy lines. But balloons are low and always close to the front. A low altitude (just out of range of rifle fire) approach is much more sensible as it allows for less exposure and reduces the chances of not being seen by any covering aircraft circling high above the target. It also makes it easier to spot the balloon without aids.

As to the first part, climbing while enroute to your patrol area (assuming it's far enough away) makes much more sense, both from pilot fatigue and fuel usage standpoints. And for intercept missions it's critical. To be told "There are enemy aircraft inbound at X. Get up there and intercept them." and then spend 25 minutes or more climbing to altitude followed by another 25 minutes to X pretty much guarantees they'll be gone by the time you get there.

When I'm flight leader I always circle low and near the airfield until the flight is formed up and then head out, climbing as I go. And if we're attacking a balloon I'll rarely climb higher than 1,000 meters.
Posted By: 77_Scout

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 02:20 AM

I have been getting back into WOTR since the last big upgrade and really like how in WOTR we take off and head straight out on the mission. It skips a pretty long boring part of the mission.

I'd be fine with a lessened height of climbout in WOFF, leaving a good chunk of the climb for the portion of the mission where we head towards the target. If a climbout is historically accurate for WW1 then it should be in there, but maybe it could be dialed back?
Posted By: JJJ65

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 06:48 AM

Sorry, I do not want to be boring or iritating and repeat myself, but have you tried Mission Editor? You can customize any waypoint in your campaign mission - altitude, coordinates, speed, type, etc., there. Mission Editor - tool created by WOFF enthusiast to WOFF enthusiasts wink .
Posted By: Creaghorn

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 08:08 AM

As soon as your flight goes into this circling press ctrl+W, then your flight will fly straight to the next waypoint, climbing as they go.

Cheers
Posted By: Polovski

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 09:46 AM

I believe flights would usually gain altitude before crossing the lines. Low and you are a sitting duck for both MG and aircraft.
Balloons are worth climbing for, as you can dive on which helps you avoid the above dangers more. But as Craighorn says simply press next waypoint (actually Shift+W) to skip to the next waypoint (once the flight is formed up) and off you go no climbing first.

Posted By: JJJ65

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Creaghorn
As soon as your flight goes into this circling press ctrl+W, then your flight will fly straight to the next waypoint, climbing as they go.

Cheers


Not sure, but do not you have to be a flight leader?
Posted By: Trooper117

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 10:43 AM

You don't have to be flight leader to get your flight to go to next waypoint
Posted By: Polovski

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 11:05 AM

Shift + W is next waypoint, and as Trooper says no need to be leader for that one.

You could always use Air Start too.

Covered in FAQ sections 45 and 41

Posted By: Creaghorn

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 02:03 PM

Shift+W of course :-).

If I'm in a squadron rather close to the frontlines, I usually let them circle up first. If far away, then I skip it via Shift+W.
On airfield attacks mostly I circle up as well because if skipping, A Flight usually continue their circling, and so both flights get seperated too much.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Polovski
I believe flights would usually gain altitude before crossing the lines. Low and you are a sitting duck for both MG and aircraft.
Balloons are worth climbing for, as you can dive on which helps you avoid the above dangers more. But as Craighorn says simply press next waypoint (actually Shift+W) to skip to the next waypoint (once the flight is formed up) and off you go no climbing first.

I get reaching altitude before reaching the lines, but as I said when it's a twenty to thirty minute flight to the lines it seems silly to me to spend another twenty to thirty climbing before you even start heading for them. Even if standard procedure was to do so I'm guessing that at least some pilots on each side would have come to the same conclusion, making the Shift+W solution not nonhistoric, imo. Thanx for the info Creaghorn and Pol.
Posted By: Polovski

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 09:14 PM

It's not daft though as some aircraft would take more than 30 minutes to reach max altitude, also you could possibly meet enemies on your side of the lines high up - even German bombers came over high. Yes sometimes you could climb some of that on the way etc - but we have to set missions up to cope with most craft types and climb rates etc. I guess you could get all the climb rates and adjust mission climb outs based on those for each type etc, a job for a modder maybe. So many things, so little time.
Posted By: carrick58

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 09:48 PM

I agree, Most of the written accounts refer to gaining Height before crossing the lines. Even then ( as pointed out ) the Huns ( because of better machines } were above and out numbered them picking where and when to fight. as the saying goes " Beware of the Hun in the Sun " A good Oral reference is the Interview by C.A. Lewis on U Tube about his Air Patrols in a SE 5A. Link is below.


https://youtu.be/9QSaDmuVKLs
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Climbout - 12/02/19 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Polovski
So many things, so little time.

I can't argue that point. And that's kind of why I posted. I can imagine that setting individual procedures for each aircraft type and each mission would be exTREMEly time-consuming. And for the number of people who would notice the difference I can see where the time would be better spent elsewhere. Especially when SHIFT+W provides the player the opportunity to merge the climbout with flying to your patrol area, if you so desire. In one iteration of the sim (a looong time ago) it wasn't possible to advance waypoints unless you were the flight leader. I didn't know that had changed.

And it works perfectly, by the way. I had an intercept mission at about 20 miles this afternoon that I wasn't leading. So after taking off and forming up I hit SHIFT+W twice (the first time we were just heading to an intermediate dogleg point). We started heading directly to our patrol area and by the time we got to the lines we were at 9,000 feet (flying a Pup...obviously the timing would have to be adjusted if you're flying a DH2 or Halberstadt, etc.). And after only about ten minutes we encountered a flight of Albatros DIII's already heading home. If we had done a traditional climbout we probably would have missed them completely.

Thanx again.
Posted By: 77_Scout

Re: Climbout - 12/04/19 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Creaghorn
As soon as your flight goes into this circling press ctrl+W, then your flight will fly straight to the next waypoint, climbing as they go.

Cheers


I use this trick a lot ... the disadvantage is that you leave A-Flight behind, as they stick to the full-climbout.
Posted By: Fullofit

Re: Climbout - 12/04/19 12:15 PM

That’s why the Mission Editor is such a great tool. You can adjust the height of the rally point, eliminate the extra waypoint of the dogleg, and adjust the height of the return waypoint because they don’t have to climb back up to 3000 m just to land. Then click the checkbox to copy the same flightpath to A flight so that they follow. You get it all there, just the way you like it.
Posted By: Wodin

Re: Climbout - 12/05/19 02:16 PM

Really? Ive always found balloon and ground attack the flight stays alot lower than recon patrol etc. Infact Ive been abit confused why at times offensive patrols may only be at around 5000ft, more so if doing air start.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Climbout - 12/05/19 03:35 PM

Might be your airstart, Wodin. My typical balloon attack mission (that I didn't lead) would consist of climbing to a reasonably normal altitude (8,000-12,000 feet), staying at that altitude until the last waypoint prior to the attack, and then descending to the attack altitude. Depending on the distance from that waypoint to the balloon that descent could take 20 miles or 2 miles. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall one or two that started their descent immediately after reaching maximum altitude.
Posted By: Stache

Re: Climbout - 12/05/19 04:58 PM

Possible it is related to the year?
Early in the war planes stay lower?
Recently flying in late 1917 with Camel and yes, I have seen ground attacks going up to 10K feet or more and flying a very long round about flight path to get to a target just across the lines, 20 miles as the crow flies.
I understand the reasons why this was could be historically correct.
I normally just let the flight get up to 5K and then skip waypoints.

I am fine with the way this is currently implemented.
Posted By: Becker01

Re: Climbout - 12/06/19 04:58 PM

Yes, I agree @Stache. The later the higher.
So we can see the the historical nearness of WOFF (compliment OBD-Team!).
And because of that I'm a little bit confused about some things I did read in this thread: I have WOFF because of the historical relevance of the sim. And so I switched the settings in workshop at "historical". But what's the use of it, if I change the campaign-missions with the editor than, because I don't like the flightline?
To high > lower
flight Duration too Long > Shorter
more action please today > no problem, I fly deeper in enemy's land.
etc.
Than -slowly but surely- I do it more and more, get used to it more and more. And one day I have left the historical base and only "Play" WOFF like X-BOX-Gaming in my opinion.
I hope the development of of WOFF doesn't go this way.
Posted By: Polovski

Re: Climbout - 12/07/19 08:40 PM

We don't have any plans to change things. There are options in the workshop for players to tailor things somewhat to limit the height of flights too (in the more settings page) if you prefer lower missions and so on.
Posted By: Sailor_Steve

Re: Climbout - 01/06/20 02:48 PM

I use the Mission Editor before the start of each mission. The main change I make is to the climbout. I still let them circle while climbing to operation altitude, but I change it so the circling is done over my own field, rather than several kilometres away. Also if I'm stationed on the coast I change both outbound and inbound waypoints so we stay over land as much as possible.
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