Sometimes it just feels wrong..

I know his has been brought up before a few times and I do love the realistic option of leader does not always attack. However I feel ti does backfire at times. This I think is mainly due to the AI not willing to break out of "Going Home" or I think it is "In Transit" and actually attack.

I'm flying in RFC 48 squadron currently and for the last 6 missions I think I've flown past or right over or right next to at least 6 different enemy flights and not once have we attacked. The last time was when I was patrolling the waypoints to keep away recon and fighter enemy and whilst over my sid eof the lines we flew what must have been no more than 50 or 10 meters right over a flight of Halbs who it appears might have been on the way home. I think we could have nearly shaken hands! This was the second time in the mission we had flown near an enemy flight but this was much closer. Once in awhile maybe this might happen but flying near observable enemy flights whilst on a patrol and not engaging those that could easily be engaged and your not escorting just seems wrong when it is happening near every flight. Infact my pilot has yet to actually engage the enemy since joining yet seen plenty of them.

I have to put this behaviour down to the Going Home and In transit modes and the AI not breaking out of them to engage. Nor it seems your friendly AI will engage any enemy in those modes.

I do hope before WOFF finally comes to an end this area gets a look at and any tweaks made where necessary.

(I thought I got some screenshots but sadly must have been pressing the wrong key!)

I agree wholeheartedly.

They do switch to fighting mode from "In transit" for me.
In the "Going home" mode, they still turn to take an attacker on, but only for one or two rounds,
before they try to fly home again. But then there may be reasons like short of fuel, or out of
ammo after a previous fight?

It may also depend on the "morale" of a unit?

What I do in such situations as with the Halberstadts:
I'd just shoot at them.
Then they would switch to "Combat" mode, and that should make the rest of my flight
to also switch over - at least once they are getting attacked from the Halbies.

Wodin, I tend to agree with your request and yes this has been brought up before. The devs are generally very responsive to us and I suspect will address this if it is possible. If it was easy I suspect it would already have been done. That said, I also have seen the squad break out of transit when attacked but only for short evasive manouvers and then they resume transit again rather than finishing their defence.

Best Regards

Yes, it might occasionally feel "wrong". But only because you don't know what the other squadrons task is. They might be underway or on the way back from attacking an airfield, from escorting twoseaters or recoinassance etc. They might simply be on their way back home, which doesn't necessarily means their label is "going home". That means they are not permanently in the mood to attack nor have they always the task to attack (think of Stachel disobeying orders). And even if they are in the mood to attack they sometimes might miss you or simply decide that you are too strong or them being too deep in enemy territory etc.

BTW. I have worked on and tested some stuff regarding AI-decisions and visions etc. in the past few months. It wasn't included officially because there was simply no time for the devs to test it very much, and one guy testing is thank god not enough to implement something officially, so I might upload it as an unofficial mod.

Creaghorn, please, please upload that mod. I've been waiting for this on the edge of my seat...I will test the crap out of it inside out and everywhichway. If it's not written in archaic code, then I can try to understand the logic as well and provide any helpful input.

Don't know if you notice, but I am ready, willing and able....

More and more I get the Impression, that these Behaviours are highly dependant on the Squad / individual Team Members...
there are overly cautious ones, that immedeately go home and land, as soon as they spot EA (remember Schock...)
...then there are the Ostrich-Types ( You ignore me when I ignore you)
...and the trigger-happy-Squads...

Sorry OldHat, I just got word that it's going to be needed, so no unofficial mod. Sorry for making your mouth water

but wait that means that it's being used 'officially' then?



(Kidding of course :P )

Damm, that's cruel

Become a masochist - and you'll enjoy it!

Well that's good news anyway.
Of course then we will probably have threads on stupidly aggressive and suicidal AI!

Well, to re-apply a phrase from dear old Charles Spurgeon in his fantastic John Ploughman's Talk,


I'm not saying don't try to make it better, or point out deficiencies where you find them, or even that your remarks are hard or unkind - I just find the quote funny, to be honest. I always marvel at the gentility of this forum. Duke's remark just brought it to mind that the discussion could easily swing back the other way. It's a lot easier to point out issues with code than it is to write it, and I've done plenty of both.

Maybe sometime I'll have time to get as deeply into this as you all are, and see what you mean. But as we approach Thanksgiving (at least here in the US), be thankful that Creaghorn's efforts are bearing fruit, we have the most involved and responsive devs I've seen anywhere (who share our passion with us), and we still overall have the best WWI air combat simulation available.

OK, sermonette over, resume your normal discussion!

There really was no excuse why they didn't engage the Halbs. We out numbered them. Had better planes. Where on our patrol route for the exact reason. We were on our side of the lines and had not been in any combat so no fatigue or low on ammo. The Halbs where on the way home with possible intel etc. Also we flew within 10 to 20 meters or so infact we cut up their formation. If this happened in the war I expect the leader would have been sent home for a rest or even to Craiglockheart. Also this was the THIRD flight we had come across and not engaged. Plus the preoou five missions exactly the same issues arose.

Too bad I couldn't test out that MOD. I had hoped that the Devs were having a change of heart and allowing more flexibility with MODDing WOFF. There are too many encrypted files to be able to MOD AI behavior or integrating OFFice.

Every new feature really doesn't need to be an official patch with extensive testing to ensure a bug free game. Just look at other game titles which had major bugs, but were fixed by the community because the game was easy to MOD. That is why games which are MOD friendly last longer.

So, there is an easy fix. Devs make an ini file which will allow us have ultimate control on AI behavior, unencrypt the squad files (like they were in OFF) so that we can integrate OFFice, etc...

Then we release user AI mods and OFFice ....and everyone is happy.

I will say I am very curious what this mod entails and how it will work. And if I was King OldHat I would send you - and other knowledgable types like yourself - the mod for testing via PM but OBD seems to keep things close to the chest. I wish I had time to be a good and thorough tester.
Hopefully it will be a real code change (for the better of course!) and not a "vision/reaction time.xml" edit where the change, at least when I tried to do it, apparently had mixed (or no) obvious results.

But then one must assume that OBD knows much better then I what numbers, or what combination of said numbers, to tweak to obtain much better results.
I really do sympathize with the Dev's - it seems to me that "cooking .xml's" trying to chase a desired result, with all the ever changing variables already built into this fine game. must be a hell of a task.
S!

Youare crying to deaf ears, OldHat .
PM sent.

I must say, that the AI itself doesn't have to be modified.
The only Thing is, that the Potential of it isn't always used in a Way, that fits the Situation (regardless of the Experience of the AI-Pilot)

Here is a great Example of the AI's Skill and Behaviour:
Watch the Pup, especially from 4:50 onwards

Problem is that the AI needs to be modified according to the type of plane they fly in order to take advantage of its capabilities better during a dogfight. Now, the AI is only dependent on skill, fatigue and morale regardless of what type of plane it is. Also, you can easily make the AI quit a turn fight (like in your video) by just continuously turning with them. Then, they'll get tired and fly home at the perfect altitude allowing you a good chance to sneak behind and shoot him up. At least he could escape and fly at tree top level to make it harder for you to pursue him or if he was not injured/damaged plane, then he could have went into a pattern of climbing followed by steep dives when he saw that your were approaching from behind in order to try and gain more distance between you and him and make himself a harder target to hit.

Yes, one can make most AI-Pilots quit turn-fighting by merry-go-round-...ing, but in the above Case, he quit, because he ran out of Space. Directly after that, he performed a Hook - and the Alb is not agile enough to follow through such a Maneuver.
I was truly marvelled by what the AI has shown, there... the whole 9 Minutes
...and that is, what I wanted to show:
It's all there.
Our occasional Problems are more based on the Fact, that the Capabilities of the AI are not always activated on a given Occasion... not looking backwards when persued and fleeing ( the "Going-Home-Mode-Topic") for example.

Not quite true - the AI is 'trained' to fly each craft within the crafts capability envelope...

There is no intention of opening up WOFF for modding at this moment in time.


WM

You can "cheat" the game in ANY game, if you micro analyse everything to beat the game, yes you will beat it. For example flying very low in some sims (even older Phase 3) the AI can't get you and you "win".

An AI guy "going home" he is on his own, running for home is doing it for good reasons usually, craft damaged, pilot panicked, pilot wounded, No ammo, fuel, wing about to fall off. In other words really not "normal". Note this is not a normal "navigate home" mode.
He probably won't even see you in that mode, as he is now effectively a novice/rookie. Vision is very impaired, his manoeuvres are much worse, controls may be impaired - use some imagination.

If they are fired at they will dodge only because they really really must even though it may cause them to open a wound/die etc.

Richthofen v Hawker. Hawker did great until he ran away.

How can we make you fatigued from G forces? The AI is getting tired, yes we really modelled that in the sim.

You have to immerse yourself somewhat or don't bother. Maybe you should play it as your life is on the line and you don't want to sit there for 20 mins until the AI is tired ? You are tired too, go fly home.

We could start limiting YOUR fatigue by slowing your controls, roll rate etc. Then we'd get people moaning they can't win the war but of course all these options would cost time and effort for most users wouldn't care and we'd get no extra sales?

We could make the AI fight to the death and remove the cool features in WOFF such as running away, avoiding fights..
then it would be like other sims.

Well I can say from experience (hard experience!) that the "low flying getaway exploit" has definitely been fixed!

All very good points by Polovski - I recommend to read them all.
If we fly it like it could cost our real life, we would be pleased with far less but victories -
namely by bringing our own saved bum back home, again.
Immersion needs imagination - immerse yourself - imagine the real thing!

Damn, I cannot watch the video - due to copyright reasons/music, it remains banned for me...

PS: ...the first time I was REALLY proud about my own achievements in WOFF
was not when I had shot down two in one sortie. It was when I had survived
several tricky missions with nasty encounters - without using any aids.

Pol, you mentioned a great Idea in a sub-clause...
Simulating Player's Fatigue by dampening Controls (or similar Things).
If you create an On/Off-Switch in the Workshop for that, nobody would argue...
I think, this would be a huge Plus in Realism.
The "Stamina", needed to do Tough Maneuvers, could be regained over Time, if nothing happens for a While.
You could even do some weird Things with the Head-Tracking / POV, when someone does more than 4 or so tight Circles in a Row...

+1 Million... I was just about to write the same thing.



Actually, this is true in any game and not just WOFF. I played Zork which required a lot of reading and imagination, but that was not my point. Finding creative solutions to a game's limitation (like what Pol suggested) is what is being discussed and not lack of imagination.



I stand corrected on my AI comments and thank you for pointing out that you won't open up WOFF to modding. It's an unfortunate decision, but now your position is very clear.

I noticed WM saying "at this moment in time" OldHat..so hopefully in the future it will be opened up for you to weave your magic

Let us try it again in 2023 .

I've flown with some HAs who amaze me at what they can do. Sometimes I can learn to copy their maneuvers. Sometimes I'm just glad them flying with me in case all hell breaks loose.

I think we could all agree that the discussions in this thread are in no way criticisms of WOFF or indicate shortcomings in the product. The devs aspire to excellence and that is evident by what we see in the product to date. We as users will always aspire to improvement suggestions and it is evident that the size of the development pool is the only limiting factor here. If the Devs had unlimited resources (money and manpower) I'm sure we would be hard pressed to come up with suggestions that they are not already aware of or have considered.

All this said, it is nice to have opinions and aspirations tabled here, as it is always educational.

Just my thoughts....

Best Regards;

"Finding creative solutions to a game's limitation (like what Pol suggested)"
Actually I was explained why the craft IS going home for all those reasons I mentioned.
I ask that you think of that (which ARE the reasons) and not just see a label that says "going home" and wonder why a perfectly fine pilot doesn't respond. I have told you why - we put those things in fatigue, pilot and craft damage WILL make the pilot less affective - he will drop in skill level and so on.

As WM has said in previous adding all these nice to have perfect features, such as the fatigue feature I mentioned would of course gain a lot of extra work for us, and longer delay to release anything- and likely no extra sales would come to help support that.

Naw, please not!
I don't want a sim to take over or eliminate parts of what I can do or can not.

Sorry guys, It is still the same song. No offence here, but the Devs clearly reject any support in form of manpower, even free of charge.

Yeah sorry we have been down this road many times and been burnt.... relying on 'free help' to produce 'on deadline' and of a 'quality we require' has left us high and dry every time.

So without knowing your abilities and without wanting to lump you in the same boat - we are done with that.
This is a job - a full time job and we are happy with the team stability.

The code is ours and we will develop what we want when we want at our pace - thats capitalism and thats our choice - like it or rant on - we dont really care.

At the moment we are deciding what if anything WOFF Gold may have - again we are making the decision - because we can.

Thanks and I think thats the last I will say on this as we have said it at least 5 times before.


WM

I meant to add something that seemingly no one considers: this is a business for us that supoorts us month to month - 'free help' is the worst kind - there is no 'contractual obligation' and we like to eat.

From now on we will only be reading and where necessary posting in a support role - this is going beyond reasonable to have to say these obvious things - signs of forums all over I guess.

*Sigh*
I get what you (OBD) guys are saying and I am in no position to argue - even if I assumed the point needed debating or I disagreed.
It's just like it always feels lately like its the end of an era and that the chapter of simming labeled WOFF is coming to an end.
Unfortunately people (especially new and potential customers) like to feel that the sim they are investing in, both financially and emotionally, is a growing, expanding, improving, vibrant. and dynamic one not one that is being wheeled to the retirement home because it's life is coming to a close.

This is just my opinion based on "feelings" and nothing else. WOFF has always been (and still is) a great, but not perfect sim (what is?) about my favorite historical era. It's just a sad feeling that the sunset seems to have arrived.

Many misconceptions have arisen over the last few weeks.
Here are OBDs plans for the future:

1) There will be ongoing addons for WOFF2 - this is a given.

2) We are working on a new non WW1 product - this is a given.

3) We are contemplating a WOFF Gold (WOFF3) and deciding what should be in it if at all.

Item 3) is the only debate going on on our side - in other words we are contemplating is the core WOFF engine done - or do we put more into it.
Not more planes - that falls into category 1) - but more sim engine/system/code functionality.....

Well thats our current roadmap.


WM

I always wait till the dog dies before I bury it.

Simple and clear answer finally.
Thank you.

Sounds good for me, Winder, and not like any "end of an era" yet.
May you have good steam all the time!

I understand all the reasons why flights wouldn't engage. However there was no reason what so ever why my flight didn't engage the Halbs. We had been in no other combat. We where about halfway through our patrol time and we were on our side of the lines when we flew right through the Halb formation.

This has happened alot and yes many times I could see a reason. However not everytime. There is some sort of restriction in the game that can throw up these occasions.

I always end up deciding it's Leader Wind Up. This time I think the leader needs a few days rest.

HOWEVER saying all this I LOVE the sim. Nothing ever can be perfect including WOFF and I appreciate as much as anyone here the effort Pol and Winding Man and the others have put into this amazing sim.

So thanks lads for all the enterainment you've given me and I'll support you in what ever you do over the next few years:)

Many times, it just feels right though. All this decision making by the AI to run away from a fight based on Morale, Fatigue, Damage levels of the aircraft, damage levels of the pilot, ammunition or fuel level, distance from home field, proximity to front lines - is already coded into WOFF in a realistic and balanced manner. However if you want an arcade sim then go to workshops select AI always engages and enjoy your arcade sim.


-enjoy .