Questions for the experienced players

Some background: Back in the day, I played flights sims with WW1, WW2, and jet aircraft. The Dynamix sim Red Baron was the one I remember the most fondly. I have not really played any flight simulations since then.

I am a bit of a history buff and, given the WW1 centennial going on, I think I would like try another WWI sim and I am considering starting either WOFF or RoF but first I have some questions for the experienced players of OFF/WOFF and/or RoF:

Where do I start? just go with OFF and see how I like it then upgrade to WOFF? Or, jump right into WOFF or RoF?

Can I play with a fairly casual approach and take lots of time to reclaim my past experience with flight sims? or do I get thrown right into the deep water? I suspect the realism in modern flight sims is way beyond what I saw back in the day.

I don't have any recent control devices. I have CH joystick that is pre-USB which I guess is useless now a days. From what I have read online the cost of controllers can run from $20-$30 at the low end to hundreds of dollars at the high end. I was partial to the CH products and would like to know: are they are still a good product?

What controllers would you recommend to get started? I would rather keep the cost down at first but I don't want to buy cheap stuff that will only frustrate me when I try to use it.

If you play both RoF & WOFF, how would you rate them for the player who is not a die-hard flight sim guy? I am willing to learn and to be patient while I learn but I don't think I will enjoy a game that is only enjoyable if you are a dedicated player who is a real-life pilot. Oh yeah, I am no spring chicken so my reflexes are ordinary, at best, so I try to avoid twitch games.

Sorry about all the questions but I would like some input before I make any decisions.

Edit: My PC is an Intel I5 processor with 16GB of memory. The video card is an NVIDIA GTX 660 with 2GB of on-board ram. I use a 27" IPS monitor for my main monitor and a 19" monitor as the second display. I use 2 monitors when I work from home. From what I can tell, this is good enough for either WOFF or RoF right now. Hopefully I am right about this.

No sense in going to OFF when WOFF v2.5 is clearly much superior.
As for "easing back in" then WOFF is your baby again as, with the awesome Workshop feature, you can tailor make your experience into whatever you want it to be - super easy or "full real" or somewhere in between.

As for a stick there are quite a few that do a good job. I currently use a Thrustmaster T16000M and am quite happy with it.
Also, IMHO, TrackIR is as critical as a joystick but some manage without.
Let see...did I hit everything? Oh...ROF. I have no experience with it but some here play it also.
If I had to go with just one though it would be WOFF. It's the only sim I have played in a long while.

Hello BK,

Welcome to the WOFF forum and thanks for joining/having interest in WOFF.

Before we get into WOFF and ROF for that matter, let's take a step back and think about what made RB3D so memorable for you and many of us that presently fly WOFF. For starters, the history and deep campaign engine that it offered... plus the ability to mod it to nearly anything possible with so many mods available. If you remember Hell's Angels, then you remember me. Like you, I love the history behind WWI and all the caveats that go with it. The time period, the essence of early flight and how each side developed into a war machine from 1914 through to 1918. RB3D was the first game of it's kind and had a strong community that backed it up with many mods, forums, websites and help to boot.

Well, flash-forward to today and modern Flight Simming, and you get WOFF. Many of us on this forum came from that era and know what you mean. 3 of us on the Dev Team actually worked together in the past on other projects and RB3D stuff... plus many other sims. Winder, who heads the whole project and team is a scenery guru.. and I mean Grand Guru. For all the flight and combat sims I have flown (an I am talking about true sims, not the super-graphic canned world stuff), I've never seen such amazing and life-like scenery in front of me. So you have found the right place. It's all here... the history, the depth, the atmosphere, the discussions.. all of it. That is what makes WOFF as good as it is.. we all have the same expectations. We want to feel that castor oil smacking us in the face while we dance the game of death with the Aces of the past. As a team, we go out of our way to find every little detail, historic and design to bring out that life-like feel that gives our campaign engine so much atmosphere. We do this, because we're nuts about it.

Moving into WOFF, you have the choice to approach it from any level you want. You can take-up a Be2c for flight training in lower England and take it one step at a time. You can fly German and begin with the Aviatik B.I which is unarmed and flies slow and easy. Or if you prefer, go head-on in a Camel in the spring of 1918 over Flanders duking it out with Jasta 11.

WOFF is all what you make it.. there is something in it for all levels. The Campaign engine is unlike anything before, and will most likely never be matched again. It's deep with history, filled with information and never a dull moment exists with hundreds of live flights surrounding your ever mission. Nothing is scripted, ever mission you fly is unlike the one before... how long can you last.

As far as flight controls.. I, like you, am not a big spender when it comes to joysticks and controls, but in the end, it was all worth it. For the longest time, I flew with a twist stick till I finally bought rudder pedals. I never looked back. They're great. I use Saitek products. I think they look ugly, but they work flawlessly and never have configuration or compatibility issues. Again, my personal opinion.

So to sum it all up. WOFF is massive... but like any game, it's all what YOU as the user makes it. Jump in and take it up for a flight. I promise you not only will you be taken back to those good old RB3D days.. but once you see it in front of you and it's set up to handle your PC, you will never look at any other WWI Flight sim the same again.

As for ROF... I have it. I am a campaign guy, graphics don't impress me, depth does. I deleted it 30 mins after I flew it. Again.. my opinion and of course I'm biased, let's be fair. I'm an old RB3D'er.

All the best,

OvS

BK...like the other two, I'd suggest going with WOFF.

Like OvS, IMO the campaign in WOFF is without peer. ROF airplanes are harder/trickier to fly. I prefer the graphics of ROF but I have a fairly high end CPU and GPU, and play on a 46" TV.

I have more FUN with WOFF!

As far a kit to get...TrackIR like Duke said.

BK there is one feature of WOFF that has not yet been mentioned. That feature is called "QC" for "Quick Combat". When using the QC feature you can decide to fly free flight without confrontations with enemy craft, or you can decide to have combat in which you can select how many you want in your squadron and how many enemy craft you will confront. You also have the capability of setting the skill set of the pilots. WOFF is extremely tailorable to your experience needs and you can specify in the "Workshop" that you pilot never dies. This capability will allow you to hone your skills before you go to the WOFF "Campaign" mode in which your pilot will begin a career and his progress is logged.

It's a great sim in my estimation! I also honed my skills in RB3D back in the day and I feel WOFF is the best out there for single player immersion.

BK, WOFF IS the spiritual successor to those Dynamix sims many of us loved! That said, you can easily give both a try for a very reasonable price, and if you're going to spend a lot of money for peripherals that are flight sim specific, you should get the most use out of them as possible, no? For my money, RoF still has a feeling-of-flight edge, while WOFF has a feeling-of-war edge. A pretty good summary is: If you want to know what it's like to fly WWI planes, fly RoF, if you want to know what it's like to fly planes in WWI, fly WOFF. Or, try both!

I have both WOFF and RoF. To really run a campaign in RoF requires a fan made add-on. The campaign that comes with it is less than stellar.

The WOFF campaign is miles ahead of the RoF campaign and better than the add on. WOFF has more ways of altering the campaign to suit your play style and you can fine tune it to give the best experience. I haven't fired up RoF since WOFF came out. The WOFF campaign is far more immersive.

WOFF's campaign is better than RB3D with the West Front Patch and Campaign Manager. And it is FAR better looking. If you enjoyed RB3D, you will love WOFF.

I play with a LogicTech Extreme 3D Pro. It is not excessively expensive and works very well.

You can't go wrong with either choice. If you want to fly online, RoF would be better. If you want to fly a single player campaign, WOFF would be the better the choice. Personally, I like WOFF better.

I've been playing OFF then WOFF as well as ROF (with Pat Wilson's Campaign Generator for offline play) for the last four years. I've been a member of online ROF squadrons as well ( Hellequins and Jasta 5 )

I like them both equally and spend just as much time with one or the other.

The single player campaign and the AI are better in WOFF, but the physics and feeling of flying is for me better in ROF (you will need some ROF practice to properly land a Nieuport 17 with some crosswind when in WOFF landings are a breeze) It is also more realistic on the engine handling (radiator control is important to keep the engine in the right temperature) This might be a bad point for you : looking at your post you seem to go for simple things. But there are "easy options" if you want. There are also many community mods to shape it to your taste, including better AI flying.

I used to fly with a Logitech Extreme 3D, Saitek quadrant (the three axes are used for power, radiator and mixture) and Saitek Rudder pedals; I have now replaced the joystick with a Thrustmaster T16000M which I find a lot more precise.

My advice is to have both. But the learning curve will be steeper with ROF and if you're not dedicated you might find it difficult.

Since the basic ROF game is free, I would say you can always download it and give it a try. There is a 70% discount at the moment on all planes and field mods as well as Channel Map.

Your PC can run both sims, no problem.

I am 63, so no spring chicken either...

The ThrustmasterT160000M is not too expensive and has twist stick rudder. I use CH pedals but the capability is there if you don't want to spend on pedals. TRackIR is a must as soon as you can swing for it.

I have not flown ROF so cannot comment on it, but if you loved Red Baron, you will be addicted, as I am, to WOFF.

Couple of advices,your machine is pretty fit to run the simulator,about controller,with a Logitech extreme 3D you'll have a very good controller (with rudder feature as well) for some 30€/$
About what sim,well let alone OFF,it's the past,and unless you want to fly online with friends,WOFF is the way to go,it's much more immersive than RoF,no match there!AI it's pretty good,graphics are on high level and the campaign is very entertaining,lots of planes to fly,and lots of mission types and tasks to go for.
Last but not least the community and Support,for WOFF are top notch,and that cannot be said about RoF.
Just take a look at the various threads and you'll have an idea of what we are talking about.Eye candies are good,but to enjoy a game,you need depth a working community and support,and WOFF has it all.
P.S.
don let you be fooled,because graphics in WOFF are wonderfull,just look at the screenshots thread!

As a bit of a bump, a bit of shameless selfpromotion and to show you how WW1, the graphics, the immersion and historical facts are a hughe part of WOFF, you can watch the following series I made. New episodes are coming as I go as long as he's alive. That will give you a taste how WOFF is:


Daniel Brasco

I don't know anyone who loves single player campaigns for sims that doesn't love WOFF. Additionally, WOFF is OBDs sole focus, so it gets regular patches, add-ons and expansions. See the news section for the upcoming 2.06 patch and 6 new planes (complete with historical squadrons for the campaign)for the Balance of Power add-on. It also has tons of options to customize how you like to fly. If there's a downside to WOFF, it's that there is currently no multiplayer and it doesn't have multicore support but with such active developer support, anything is possible in the future. Just check out the complete list of patch notes to see how well WOFF is supported.

History of Changes for WOFF V2.xx Expansion
http://www.wingsoverflandersfields.com/ExpHistoryofChanges.html

History of Changes for WOFF V1.xx
http://www.wingsoverflandersfields.com/HistoryofChanges.html


RoF on the other hand has a great feeling of flight, multiplayer capability and a newer graphics engine with multicore support, plus the PWCG user made single player campaign mod is very good. The downsides are that the developer is now focused on making WW2 flight sims and so the updates for RoF are not nearly as frequent as WOFF. Mostly a single new plane every 6 months or so. Also, the AI is not challenging at all (continual split S to just above ground level then long, wide circles until shot down) and the developers have flat out stated that they have no current plans to update the AI. On the plus side though, you can download RoF for free to try it and just buy the planes that you want to fly.

I own them both. I fly them both, but being a single player guy, I spend the vast majority of my time in WOFF. If I was a multiplayer guy, I'd be in RoF.

I just want to say Thanks! to everyone that responded so promptly. All your advice and suggestions reinforced the feeling that I already had but needed a little nudge to push me into action.

I have ordered MSFS3 from Amazon along with a Thrustmaster T16000M [on backorder]. I downloaded WOFF V1.0 and Add-on #1 [gotta have the Eindecker esp. for a sale price]. I will probably go ahead and get the WOFF V2.0 so I have the best experience right from the start.

It now becomes a waiting game while all the pieces arrive and I can spend a weekend installing things. I also need to tidy up my computer desk. It is too cluttered right now for flight operations. That will make my wife happier too.

In the meantime, I have plenty of reading to keep me entertained. I am about 75% through "The First Air War, 1914-1918" by Lee Kennett. This is a good read [re-read actually] and covers a wide area at higher level [no pun intended]. Next I will start into reading/re-reading some of the biographies/autobiographies of the pilots. McCudden, Rickenbacker, Guynemer, Boelcke are all on the reading list. There is a vast amount of books on WW1 so I will also delve into action on the ground & at sea. Did I mention I am a bit of history buff & read a lot?

Two WWI era authors of note are Rene Martel: 'French Strategic and Tactical Bombardment Forces of World War I', and Fredrick Libby: 'Horses don't fly'.

Both two-seater gunners and pilots with interesting autobiographies with long careers in WWI.

Martel brings to life the rich history of the little known French bomber aircrews from early 1915 onwards.

Libby's experience is of an American who joined the RFC through a whim that caught himself and a friend while traveling in Canada, and became a gunner and later a pilot in a Royal Air Factory Fe2b outfit during the Fokker Scourge.

I think you will find quite a few like - minded folks here. Welcome aboard, BKCason!

BK,

You've made a very good choice. I own both WOFF and ROF, but flew mainly in campaign mode. An ardent ROF supporter, I was reluctant after my investment in ROF to test the waters with WOFF. But last year I received an Amazon gift card for a present and decided to grab CFS3 on Amazon and give WOFF a try.

I suppose the answer to your question is that I have flown ROF only once since. The immersion of WOFF is addictive. Add to that a mature, friendly, funny, and helpful community and terrifically dedicated and supportive developers and you have a great sim experience.

Nothing beats WOFF when it comes to the single player experience. But I also own and play ROF. It's perfect for some multi-player flying.

I warmly advise you to upgrade to WOFF 2.5,there are a lot of new things in there,and the upcoming patch and relative add-on will increase the value a bit more,it's a must! Believe me...

Of course asking the question on the WOFF forum the answers are no surprise.
If you ask the same question on the ROF forum, you will get the opposite answers...
( Out of the 50 guys playing ROF regularly on the french Check Six forum these last years, I think we are only two playing WOFF and posting here ( Action Joe and myself ) )

As I said before, we are happy guys to have the possibility of flying these two fine sims which have both complementary gameplay.

I can say nothing more old man LOL, only that the RoF planes are much better looking. A good alternative for the RoF campaign is the PW-CG. But I have also noticed that the campaign in rof [=career] has been much improved.

The point to a better AI in WoFF from Corsaire, so what, will you say, is this so important.
Let me explain the importance of the AI, like in the RoF career the AI mostly making circles when the plane has been hit, while the AI in WoFF is trying to get home. I do the same running away, when I do not see any change to go further.
Another point my Fee in RoF is attacking a single EIII the others will not help, because they are programed for balloon busting.
Or Flying a Roland just below planes from the elite N3, I could see the Stock emblem, but they are just flying on, gues no time for an easy claim.
I could be wrong but I never saw this happen in WoFF, think this brings you much a more immerse flight, when the AI is not doing always the same trick but is acting like a real human. That is the a strong point from WoFF.

I think you'd probably get most of the same exact answers, but with the preference stating why RoF is what suits their desires better. As in "True, WOFF has a nice single player campaign, but if you're looking to fly on-line RoF is the only way to go. Plus, it has a newer engine with multicore support and cool damage modeling effects. Yeah, WOFF has better AI, but nothing beats flying against a living opponent."

It'd really be the same reasons stated here, just with the preference or emphasis on RoF's strengths.

I knew that posting on the WOFF forum was likely to get a lot of people preferring WOFF. I prefer single player games and when I login to a multi-player online game I tend to play like it is single player. Given that plus the whole immersion thing, it seemed like WOFF was the place to start.

I will probably download RoF as well just to see what it is like. It will take a back seat to getting WOFF up and running but I am certainly curious about it too. Once I retire at the end of next year, I ought to have time for both games.

EDIT: I don't mean to offend any RoF players but I was leaning towards WOFF to start and posted here only since I was hoping for answers from players with some experience in both games without cross-posting to both game forums.

The RoF forum seems a little "deserted" imho....

I don't have much to contribute, BKCarson, but welcome!

I only have WOFF and seldom even have time to fly. Like this weekend: I'm home chopping some roots out and I get called to a job site, had to drop everything and skedattle. But I'll second the motion to get everything OBD is offering. When I do gee up in the air, quite honestly I've never had the feeling of actually flying like I do in WOFF. If RoF is better, I'd sure like to know how... I don't have it. But the scenery, the skies, just blow me away.

I use Saitek stuff, and that's a matter of taste, but TrackIR is as close to mandatory as I can make it. You really will have 100x better experience using it over the old hat button - arrow key stuff. You hands& feet have enough to do, believe me.

But if there is one thing that really, really sells it for me, it's all the folks you see posting here. Dedicated, funny, helpful, good people that are fun to chat with on and off topic; and the developers are here as well and will jump right in. Good folk all, it's my most active forum.

I hope you enjoy WOFF and join the "barmy" bunch who hang about here!

Best,

Tom

Don't shoot me ! I'm not defending one or the other, they are two different games for different types of play and I'm glad to enjoy both.

( For those who play also ROF the AI has been made a lot better by PWCG and other community mods - the PWCG AI also often breaks out and flies home, planes often try to outclimb you and don't always go down - , although WOFF is superior in that part of the game. )

That's years that I only go there to pick up the PWCG releases ( 16.0 just released ) and mods. But there are many active forums outside of the official one ( where people mostly throw stones at each other about flight models or other similar topics.)

Yes, Pat has done a marvelous job improving the AI over the stock sim. I just picked up 16.0 myself.

When I went there for infos,I could only see people trying to make it work,there seemed to be a lot of problems,since it's all online not much else,about the other Forums yes "Rise of Flame Wars" as usual,this happens unfortunately for every game around,be it on PCs or Console games,it does not matter what but people stupidity always rule! It's not a matter of being fanboys for one game or the other,but in the first instance I do not like games where you have to pay for everything,piece by piece,then being a total online game experience,even if you campaign as single player the games rely on servers,that was the other reason for not going for it,and above all the Campaign system,even through Mods or improved AI,it's far from giving the WOFF immersion.I don't really care for graphic useless candies that much,a flight simulator is about flying and when you are in the thick of it,you don't have time for admiring little 3D bits here and there.

That's fine ! You don't like it, you don't play it... Nothing wrong with that. But let's try to be objective.

As always there is a good side to everything, depending how you look at it. (Always look at the bright side of life... ) The good thing of buying "piece by piece" is that you only buy what you are interested in, you can even play for free... (which means you can try it before deciding to put a single buck in the machine ) I most of the time waited for sales to buy the planes I wanted, so overall didn't cost me that much, considering the number of hours flown since 5 years now.

I play 75 % of the time offline with PWCG so it's not a "total online game experience".

WOFF has a similar system, as had OFF before, instead of buying planes one by one you buy DLCs or addons and you might not be interested by everything that is inside. For instance I would be interested by Ankor's ground shadows ( although you would call it graphic useless candies ) but I couldn't care less about Zeppelins and home defense. So I'm still using 1.26.

No, not on the head !

@ Ankor : thks again for all the graphic improvements you brought to both WOFF and ROF !

Well yes but before buying WOFF ( and I was an OFF player before) I tried RoF and did not like it,as you said it's a subjective matter of course,but you cannot compare the "by DLC" stuff (with anyway a BIG starting base!),with having to buy nearly everything;unless you are a dedicated oneside fan,you will like to fly most or all the planes available,be it bombers or scouts.The WOFF line of developement is way more organic and rational,I am not buriyng RoF just sayin' it's not my thing.I enjoyed a career in Home defense,it was fun and it was historical as well,even though I prefere other tasks.With "useless candies" I am not talking about scenery shaders and the likes,I was referring only to the declamed RoF superiority ( stated by many fan declarations) above WOFF stuff,I don't really care to see levers moving around in the plane,I have more important things to do over there.Having been a 3D modeler for many Mods on various games,I know exactly what is it about it,and I can gladly tell you the most of the times a good 3D frame with Excellent textures,do a lot more than a more complex ( and heavier to handle from the CPU) 3D frame with lesser textures.The 3 D model, above a certain point, it's not really worth it,all must be functional to the game playability.Anyway to everyone its own

BK, good to meet you. I am the old guy ( 78 last April ), and have been flying sims for as long as there were flight sims.

WOFF is the best by far in the WW1 experience, and the best support of ANY sim of any type!!

Much great advice above, fly in QC with can not die, and practice-- for HOURS up on end with all kinds of planes and settings. Test you plane-- stall speed, max G load, spin recovery, and all the rest.

My rig does very well on all "5's and even in a "fur ball" of several planes will stay in the 50's FPS.

Also,this is a great bunch of folks-- grumpy and nasty folks are rare arround here. Most may be found hanging
from the Oak Tree near POL's Ranch

.

Welcome to the virtual skies of WOFF BKCason, you will love it here. Not much I can add to all the sound advice and wisdom already shared. I too own both WOFF and ROF but fly almost exclusively WOFF as I am all about SP campaigns. Not that I don't enjoy the occasional MP mix-up, which ROF is famous for, but it's just not my cuppa' most days. You mention you are a bit of a WWI history buff and a reader of Great War aviation literature, which puts you in good stead here. There are a few of us with these same interests hanging about.

Again, glad to have you with us. Oh, and new lads buy the drinks!



Cheers!

Lou

.

CW3SF, It is nice to know I am not the only geezer around

I am about 10 years behind you and may we both have many more years to come!

Ben Cason

In keeping with all the good advice that i have gotten, I went ahead an bought V2.0 & downloaded it. I have backed up all the new stuff up on DVDs. I am now reduced to waiting for MSCFS & the joystick to arrive.

The real bummer is MSCFS might not arrive until June 10th. From reading the FAQs there is not much I can install until I have it in hand. Once I do have it, it looks like all I need to do is have the MSCFS V3.1 CD in the drive during the WOFF install. If my CD turns out to be V3.0 then I have to install MSCFS and apply the V3.1 patch.

If MSCFS is not here by this coming weekend and the joystick has arrived [the vendor for the joystick is very reliable so expect it will], I will go ahead and install RoF [already downloaded] and play around with it while waiting for MSCFS.

Edit: Yay! the joystick has shipped and is expected tomorrow! So, worst case, I'm installing RoF and playing around with it this weekend.

While not quite that long in the toothe, I still wish my fps while playing this game was as high as my age!

Once you have CFS3,just put it into your CD drive,then start WOFF install,it will ask you for files from CFS3,will grab 'em and that's all,most likely your CFS copy won't need any upgrade patch,I got mine before starting with OFF,so some years ago, and it was already the lastest version.

Thanks for the info. That is encouraging [unless Amazon finds an ancient copy from deep in some warehouse (13?) to ship to me and I will welcome as simple an install of WOFF as possible.

Amazon did say MSCFS had shipped today. Now to see if it makes it to Maryland by Friday.

As an aside, I installed RoF this evening. It only took 2 tries . I can't do anything with it since the joystick is not expected until tomorrow or Thursday and I don't even want to think about trying to use the mouse as a controller. I just logged in and checked out the settings to make it as easy as possible to start.

In any case, the excitement continues to build. I think it has been 25+ years since I played the original Red Baron [not the 3D version that came later] so I am ready for some flight time.

Once I get some playing time, I need to see if I can live by a fellow Marine's quote: There are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets. -- Doyle 'Wahoo' Nicholson, USMC.

Just remember, if Mick Mannock challenges you to a dogfight, he's bringing three of his friends!

You know what they say: If you find yourself in a fair fight, you did something wrong

I assume it is possible for a player character to fly with aces like Mannock at some point during the game, right?

Yes it happens but it will be random as they are assigned to your flight.

Eh..eh... i remember that back in RB times,anytime Lothar challenged me,he came with a full complement of Huns....very unfair!! But you know these Nobles are a bit peculiar in their ways