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Observer/Gunner question

Posted By: busdriver

Observer/Gunner question - 11/30/14 03:07 AM

As a test during my 3rd BrisFit sortie, I simply flew a "bogey gathering" turn to see if my Observer would shoot when given a PERFECT opportunity. He never fired a shot...we died. You can imagine my chagrin because Jerry gunners have no reluctance to shoot at me.

Any of you two-seater aces willing to share your secret? Will my gunner only shoot if I'm straight and level? Is there a command to have my Observer/Gunner engage an enemy that is arcing us then stabilizes "in the saddle" gunning our brains out? Or perhaps there is a secret handshake, decoder ring, or special invocation of the Knights That Say Nee required. Because me imploring, "Shoot that b*st*rd, you bloody wanker!" Doesn't work...so kids don't try that at home.
Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 11/30/14 04:52 AM

I hope one day that the AI for two seaters gets a big update to make two seater campaigns amazing! Would love it if you as pilot were tasked of flying the plane to allow better shooting angles for the gunner and also that the gunners skill raises and lowers when under high G.
Posted By: Winding Man

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 11/30/14 08:59 AM

Originally Posted By: busdriver
As a test during my 3rd BrisFit sortie, I simply flew a "bogey gathering" turn to see if my Observer would shoot when given a PERFECT opportunity. He never fired a shot...we died. You can imagine my chagrin because Jerry gunners have no reluctance to shoot at me.

Any of you two-seater aces willing to share your secret? Will my gunner only shoot if I'm straight and level? Is there a command to have my Observer/Gunner engage an enemy that is arcing us then stabilizes "in the saddle" gunning our brains out? Or perhaps there is a secret handshake, decoder ring, or special invocation of the Knights That Say Nee required. Because me imploring, "Shoot that b*st*rd, you bloody wanker!" Doesn't work...so kids don't try that at home.



Yes if your craft is to steeply banked etc he wont fire....

I will look and see if its too sensitive and adjust for 2.02 if possible - no promises.

HTH

WM
Posted By: DukeIronHand

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 11/30/14 09:52 AM

I always have Bristol career going and he does indeed shoot.
Since my eyes are usually forward and scanning I don't know if there is a problem however since I presume the same AI routines that control your observer are the same as the enemy two-seater gunners everything seems ok.
Posted By: Winding Man

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 11/30/14 10:05 AM

Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
I always have Bristol career going and he does indeed shoot.
Since my eyes are usually forward and scanning I don't know if there is a problem however since I presume the same AI routines that control your observer are the same as the enemy two-seater gunners everything seems ok.


Indeed they do shoot fine - the issue is when you are evading or even maneuvering to attack, there are roll/pitch rate and roll/pitch angle limits that simulate it being difficult for the gunner to aim as you fling your craft over the sky and its at steep angles or rapid rates of change - as it would be in real life.
The AI pilots are trained to keep their craft as steady as possible to ensure maximum rear gunner efficiency.
Players should bear this in mind - imagine trying to shoot a target as the craft is flung all over the sky by your pilot. There is also a steadying time involved.

I will look and see if they are reasonable and adjust if deemed necessary but again not promising when or even if I will change them - I will look at them though.
Remember changing these limits will make your gunner fire under difficult circumstances (and make you feel safer) but will he hit anything? probably not - as in real life.

Note again that the all craft, AI and player, are subject to these limitations - the AI fly EXACTLY the same craft with exactly the same limitations as the Player.


HTH

WM
Posted By: DukeIronHand

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 11/30/14 10:21 AM

Great sim OBD.

One of my pet peeves are sims that have to have a "cheating AI" to make up for bad programming.
Posted By: busdriver

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 11/30/14 05:01 PM

WM thank you for your superb efforts. I apologize for my use of AF fighter pilot slang. My "bogey gathering" turn was simply a steady rate right hand turn at 10-20 degrees of bank maintaining altitude and airspeed...nothing evasive, no changing G loads. That's simply a description of what happens if one blindly turns...the unseen bogey will eventually show up on the inside of your turn.

On the particular sortie, the Observer/Gunner had rotated the guns to the forward hemisphere as our flight merged with the enemy. My reaction was..."Sweet...he wants to kill something." So I simply leveled off and went into a gentle turn. I was intentionally providing a stable platform for my gunner. I watched over my shoulder as an Albatros arced inside my turn circle, the bandit opened fire but the rounds were behind us, the bandit continued to close shooting intermittently before killing us. I had the HUD displayed and my Gunner never fired a shot. We completed at least 360 degrees of turn from the time the bandit appeared a couple hundred yards behind us.

In the workshop I had set rear gunner to most accurate (or whatever it's called).

Afterwards I flew three QC sorties using the BrisFit versus various airplanes. In my small sample, my Gunner rarely fired when I provided him a stable platform...until I turned on the autopilot with a bandit in our rear hemisphere and then there was a high rate of fire whilst the autopilot was throwing the airplane all over the sky.

Again my remarks should not be taken as coming from a petulant teenager, simply a simmer looking for some insight (like a key command I may have overlooked, or an experience factor based on sortie count). I appreciate this may be too hard to do, a limitation of the code. No worries.

HTH
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 11/30/14 07:50 PM

I'll echo that, busdriver. I started a 1915 German career as a visefeldwebel to get into the EI. Of course, Boelcke and Immelmann are flying the Fokkers and I'm stuck in an Aviatik. No problem, I'll just drop a few BE2's and they'll give me a single seater, right? But I'm having the same problem. I get peppered by their gunners while my guy acts like he has to pay for the ammo himself. Or maybe he's a spy. Either way, it's pretty much putting me off the whole idea. Nice to see I'm not the only one.
Posted By: MudWasp

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 12:25 AM

I had an Aviatik C campaign going and scored two Moranes by flying below them. Now that I've upgraded to WOFF V2 that pilot is now flying an Aviatik BI. No machine gun for the observer now.

Is he packing a pistol?
Posted By: DukeIronHand

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 12:48 AM

Originally Posted By: busdriver

Afterwards I flew three QC sorties using the BrisFit versus various airplanes. In my small sample, my Gunner rarely fired when I provided him a stable platform...until I turned on the autopilot with a bandit in our rear hemisphere and then there was a high rate of fire whilst the autopilot was throwing the airplane all over the sky.
HTH


Hmmm. Well if that turns out to aucurate across the board then the presumption must be that somehow a human pilot is interfering with the AI gunner routines. Or is operating under a different set of rules when paired with a human.
Posted By: busdriver

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 01:15 AM

Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
Hmmm. Well if that turns out to aucurate across the board then the presumption must be that somehow a human pilot is interfering with the AI gunner routines. Or is operating under a different set of rules when paired with a human.

Again it was a small sample. I'm not particularly interested in any of the two-seaters except for the BrisFit, so I'll just have to adjust my tactics with it (don't become a cooperative target, and assume the gunner is deadweight so to speak). It is a pretty awesome balloon buster.
Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 01:33 AM

I would like to see stuff like gunner AI firing from longer distances,more firing when under G etc.Just put the Gunner to less accurate to compensate and IMO this would feel better.Maybe a patch where some changes are made to the gunner AI and let us test it out before final patch is released?
Posted By: Winding Man

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: MudWasp
I had an Aviatik C campaign going and scored two Moranes by flying below them. Now that I've upgraded to WOFF V2 that pilot is now flying an Aviatik BI. No machine gun for the observer now.

Is he packing a pistol?


No he is simply observing - it was tough in the beginning!


WM
Posted By: Winding Man

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 09:44 AM

Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
Originally Posted By: busdriver

Afterwards I flew three QC sorties using the BrisFit versus various airplanes. In my small sample, my Gunner rarely fired when I provided him a stable platform...until I turned on the autopilot with a bandit in our rear hemisphere and then there was a high rate of fire whilst the autopilot was throwing the airplane all over the sky.
HTH


Hmmm. Well if that turns out to aucurate across the board then the presumption must be that somehow a human pilot is interfering with the AI gunner routines. Or is operating under a different set of rules when paired with a human.


Or there might be something wrong.

We will look.

Wm
Posted By: DukeIronHand

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 02:45 PM

Thanks for checking it out sir.
I have become quite fond of the Bristol.
Posted By: Polovski

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 05:02 PM

One other thing often your gunner will be taken out of action. So he will not fire. You can check it by sticking on autopilot and jumping to gunner position and press fire. If it doesn't fire the gun was damaged or observer is inactive.
Posted By: DukeIronHand

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 05:30 PM

Ah yes. Forgot about that as a possibility if I think I am having an issue.
Not that I have noticed one so far.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 05:30 PM

Good tip, Pol, hadn't thought about that. Next time I'll try it.

Thanx.
Posted By: MudWasp

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/01/14 09:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Winding Man
Originally Posted By: MudWasp
I had an Aviatik C campaign going and scored two Moranes by flying below them. Now that I've upgraded to WOFF V2 that pilot is now flying an Aviatik BI. No machine gun for the observer now.

Is he packing a pistol?


No he is simply observing - it was tough in the beginning!


WM


Thanks for the info!
Yes, it is tuff that early in the war. In a strong head wind, sometimes I'm not sure if the Aviatik BI is moving forward. For some strange reason, I really like that plane.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/03/14 02:01 AM

Update:
Further (QC) testing in the Aviatik initially provided the same results. Turned on labels to verify range to target and took screenshots. At <200 yards the gunner tracked, but would not fire at, the enemy aircraft. Took a succession of screenshots to verify I was flying straight and level, no jinking. Switched seats as Pol suggested and scored several hits myself, confirming the gunner was still alive. But when I returned to the pilot's seat, nada...as in he fired nada dad-gummed shot.

While resizing the screenies so as not to overwhelm the board I noticed something...the EA were within the arc of the propeller. So I fired up the game again to remove that variable. This time, with the EA securely outside the propeller disc my man lost his inhibition and fired like his life depended on it. It seems he's coded no to shoot into his own prop and I was staying too nose-on the targets. Kudos to the team. Haven't tried to replicate the results in a campaign mission but I expect them to be the same.

While I'm here though, one other question arose from my testing. Can the Aviatik's port gun not be slid significantly into the forward quarter of the aircraft? I ran a final flight against two BE2's. The first I engaged to starboard and the gunner fired from roughly just outside the prop disc all the way back to the wing, or nearly. When I engaged the second EA to the port side I had to bring the target back to maybe 9:30 before he'd open up. Both mounting rails go well forward of the gunner's seat and it seems rather silly to be able to cover only the back left and front right (sitting in the gunner's seat, the starboard side gun stops at about the wing although I did not test the starboard gun's rearward firing arc against a target). I'm still on 1.26, so if this has been corrected in 2.0 I apologize.
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/03/14 02:04 AM

Let me amend that last sentence..."modified" rather than "corrected".
Posted By: Polovski

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/03/14 01:30 PM

Yes good isn't it Observers have some intelligence - they will try to avoid firing into wings, tails, wires, props, your head etc - we specially made that behaviour smile

No the guns need to be where they are on the Aviatik for various reasons. Yes the have slightly different coverage but it's not renowned as the a fine gun platform.
Posted By: JimAttrill

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/03/14 02:35 PM

And don't forget there were some gunner 'aces' especially in Brisfits. It must have been dangerous to take them on because often the pilot and the gunner were both aces. I believe the top scoring gunner had a score of 15 but don't quote me.

Here is a link - the top-scoring gunner had 39 victories!

[url=http://jpgleize.perso.neuf.fr/aces/ww1brobs.htm][/url] http://jpgleize.perso.neuf.fr/aces/ww1brobs.htm
Posted By: busdriver

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 04:16 AM

LOL I surrender. The latest iteration of enemy gunner marksmanship is killing me ALL...THE...TIME. Time for me to rethink the notion of trying to kill a two-seater. duh

Got into a fight with Rumpler over Alsace, we started out in a two circle fight (he turned right and I turned right at the merge making our flight paths looks like a figure 8 if viewed from above). After two passes like this I decided to make it a one circle fight and lead turn over the top of him as he passed me nose low on my left. The [Rumpler] gunner put a couple bullet holes in the fabric of my N17 as I was crossing their high six. Since I didn't see smoke trails I checked my own six just to be sure I hadn't managed to trap a bandit back there. It took me a couple of potatoes (you know...one potato, two potato...ah there he is) to reacquire a Tally. The Rumpler was headed downhill, maneuvering in a right turn back underneath me, I continued my left hand turn spiraling down above him. I circled once and as we got to opposite sides of the circle, he leveled out, and I'm now back in his four o'clock high. I'm just inside 300 yards pulling my nose toward him, imagine my chagrin,ar15 "thwup thwup thwup thwup...uggggghhhhh" heavy breathing and a red screen out of control from 270+ yards.

I'll let you know how I do with Rear Guns: Less Acc selected. duel
Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 04:27 AM

I am soo confused by your post Busdriver.Where you in an N17 fighting a Rumpler?And where did the Roland come from?Could you post a video of your attempts at fighting the 2seaters?
Posted By: busdriver

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 04:58 AM

Mea culpa...the enemy aircraft were Rumplers, not Rolands. I have no idea why I typed Roland. Going forward I'll stick to typing "bandit."

I don't do YouTube, and I can't find a track recorder in WOFF...got any other suggestions? I'm all ears.
Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 05:58 AM

LOL that made me laugh dude! Rumplers,Rolands,GOTHA's WE ARE UNDER ATTACK!!Sorry I have a few beers in me....

As for advice you need to stay moving.When you are flying towards enemy do not just fly towards them but jink and dive and roll and forget about pointing your nose at them and firing away and instead think of it as getting just a few bullets into them and rolling away to live another day.Right after my attack I then dive and then climb and then dive in a matter of what feels like a second.
Posted By: Nefaro

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 06:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Wolfstriked
LOL that made me laugh dude! Rumplers,Rolands,GOTHA's WE ARE UNDER ATTACK!!Sorry I have a few beers in me....

As for advice you need to stay moving.When you are flying towards enemy do not just fly towards them but jink and dive and roll and forget about pointing your nose at them and firing away and instead think of it as getting just a few bullets into them and rolling away to live another day.Right after my attack I then dive and then climb and then dive in a matter of what feels like a second.



They also regularly hit me when I'm maneuvering at a high angle off. If I'm not in a complete blind spot, I just expect to take a few bullets and hope that it's not to the face.

While a few bullet holes is to be expected, the AI gunners do tend to hit your pilot very quickly when they open up. In contrast, I have a helluva time killing a crewman. I've been having a campaign hit rate average of 19-20 percent lately. Does my shooting suck that much? wacky
Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 06:46 AM

Its not easy and that is why there were aces that flew the skies. But we do not die when we get a bullet to the face though so it allows us to practice the art of getting shot in the face over and over again!@...... biggrin
Posted By: busdriver

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 08:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Wolfstriked
As for advice you need to stay moving.When you are flying towards enemy do not just fly towards them but jink and dive and roll and forget about pointing your nose at them and firing away and instead think of it as getting just a few bullets into them and rolling away to live another day.Right after my attack I then dive and then climb and then dive in a matter of what feels like a second.

I guess I didn't draw a very clear word picture. When I was gunned I was not straight and level, I was in approx 125 degrees of left bank slicing down toward the bandit. I was moving my N17 around the sky the entire time. Like Nefaro these gunners are cleaning my clock.

[Edit: the following observation uses the word "you" in the generic sense and not one individual. It is meant to convey the basics of a RL guns jink and not a criticism of an individual's techniques. I apologize to Wolfstriked for the confusion.]

And if I may offer an observation. A common error of RL fighter pilots learning to perform their gun defense AKA their "guns jink" is not allowing enough time for their airplane to move in one plane of motion before trying a different move. Think of it this way. If you rapidly try to dive then climb and then dive in a second, you are simply "stirring the stick" as we'd say. You think you're making yourself a difficult target, but really the airplane hasn't traveled very far through the air. Viewed from the attackers cockpit, your airplane might be rotating about an axis, but it remains in the same relative position. At a nominal 100 MPH in a WWI fighter in a turning fight, you're only traveling about 150 FPS (just using round numbers). Rapidly pumping the stick 3 times a second might displace you 50 feet out of plane. The take away...or not....when performing your guns defense set and hold the stick for "one or two potatoes" before going to your next move. That worked really well in the Phantom and the Viper, of course YMMV.
Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 04:44 PM

I may have exaggerated the 3 times per second. neaner
Posted By: busdriver

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Wolfstriked
I may have exaggerated the 3 times per second. neaner

I have edited my post to clarify my intent (hopefully to your satisfaction, and assure you no malice or snark was intended).
Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 07:26 PM

You pointed out that my wording was off is how I took it.But I accept your apology and you can sleep biggrin in knowing my feelings have not been hurt. thumbsup
Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 08:59 PM

Busdriver,here is a video attacking Gothas'.I do get a bullet thru the left shoulder but I survive to live another day.Video has me make some mistakes and almost pay with my life at the end. copter

Its exhilarating to attack 2seaters now and also to fly them.I love the new stats on them even if it means I probably wont survive a month at war. wacky


Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/06/14 09:52 PM

Posted By: busdriver

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/08/14 02:17 AM

I solved my problem of Jerry Observer/Gunner snipers. I simply selected the Less Acc option in Workshops. Did not have to select the Invincible option. thumbsup
Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/08/14 05:33 AM

I wonder if reara gunners had normal accuracy that changes to lower accuracy when being fired upon would work a bit here.I just feel that if I was a gunner and super exposed as they were and being fired upon I would lose my courage and not be able to fire as well.But in a plane and on the attack you feel safer in a way as you have a huge engine block covering most of your body. stirthepot
Posted By: vonBaur

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/08/14 05:02 PM

Of course everyone's different, Wolfstriked. But I think you would quickly realize that your only defense in that situation would be to kill your opponent before he can kill you and therefore focus even more intently on your aim. Therein may lie the difference between those who survived and those who didn't. A healthy dose of luck notwithstanding.
Posted By: Creaghorn

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/08/14 05:11 PM

And those differences are reflected with gunners having different levels of skill.

Personally, I would always recommend less accurate, for front guns and rear guns.
Posted By: Polovski

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/08/14 05:44 PM

This is also the problem, we have many variables, so snap judgements are often not the whole picture.
2 seater craft types have their own difficulties for gunners (arc objects, wires in the way etc ), to the gunner's skill (novice, vet, ace), player's own pilot skill. Also your attacking potential and survival potential for success will depend on your number of guns, your craft durability (especially when shot from the front) , how many of you are attacking, how well you change relative direction and so on. This is not to mention the other variables in WOFF, gunner accuracy etc.

The workshop settings are so each person can tailor it a bit for their pref/skill/wishes.
Posted By: Wolfstriked

Re: Observer/Gunner question - 12/08/14 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By: vonBaur
Of course everyone's different, Wolfstriked. But I think you would quickly realize that your only defense in that situation would be to kill your opponent before he can kill you and therefore focus even more intently on your aim. Therein may lie the difference between those who survived and those who didn't. A healthy dose of luck notwithstanding.


So true! Its a complete do or die situation in a fabric covered plane as you cant take cover so you might as well go rambo style.

And I agree there are so many variables that you will need to program in a super AI that would need massive CPU power all for itself.WOFF is done well enough though and surprises me many times and keeps me on edge most of the time and that's fine by me. biggrin
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