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Historical Markings

Posted By: Fish40

Historical Markings - 08/16/14 09:35 AM

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but I'm wondering if there will be an option to enable historical markings on the German AC. I'm looking forwards to getting this sim, but that generic symbol on the German AC would be an immersion killer for me.
Posted By: Para_Bellum

Re: Historical Markings - 08/16/14 10:36 AM

I'm pretty sure there won't be an ingame option for swastikas since that would be in violation of laws in Russia and several European countries.

If the sim allows user created content I'm sure we'll see historically correct markings in due time.


Posted By: Peally

Re: Historical Markings - 08/16/14 05:27 PM

No, for legal reasons you won't see swastikas. Para is correct, I would imagine like RoF user created content would fill that hole.

Regardless, unless you're in formation you're not going to see a swastika going 500 KM/H in a dogfight wink
Posted By: Gambit21

Re: Historical Markings - 08/16/14 05:50 PM

Lack of swastikas an immersion killer?
rolleyes
Posted By: Requiem

Re: Historical Markings - 08/16/14 06:55 PM

I doubt you will see the Nazi's Hakenkreuz provided by the devs for legal reasons, and even user submitted skins will be subject to approval so who knows if they will be accepted for integration either.

Thinking about the legality of it does make me wonder something. The Hakenkreuz is illegal to display in certain areas as ParaBellum said, but would the original Buddhist version of a swastika (before the Nazis altered it) be looked at in the same way? It wouldn't be historically accurate obviously, but it would be a complete shape instead of the cutaway version. It's not like you see it anyway so I don't care if it's in or not, just thinking out loud.
Posted By: Peally

Re: Historical Markings - 08/16/14 07:20 PM

You're dealing with politicians, law makers, and lawyers (some of the most useless creatures on the planet), so I doubt they'd see the difference.
Posted By: RainMan

Re: Historical Markings - 08/16/14 08:42 PM

I got BOS yesterday from Steam, and I was wondering the same thing. Coming from DCS, I was able to enable the Swastika for the FW-190 Dora with ease (it's already part of the code), so I kind of expect(ed) the same from BOS.

Posted By: Gambit21

Re: Historical Markings - 08/16/14 09:26 PM

I'm trying to imagine sitting in the cockpit of the 190, rolling in to attack a convoy or getting ready to pounce on a Yak and thinking...

"Man - this would be so much better right now if I had a Swastika on my plane!"


You can't see it when you're flying anyway so who cares?
Posted By: Peally

Re: Historical Markings - 08/16/14 09:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Gambit21
I'm trying to imagine sitting in the cockpit of the 190, rolling in to attack a convoy or getting ready to pounce on a Yak and thinking...

"Man - this would be so much better right now if I had a Swastika on my plane!"


You can't see it when you're flying anyway so who cares?



Exactly. While I'm in the camp that certain countries need to get over certain things and quit half denying them, the pseudo swastika in BoS is in no universe is going to stop me from enjoying an entire game.

It's like not buying Silent Hunter 4 because the stock game had propellers rotating the wrong way. I mean for God's sake...
Posted By: letterboy1

Re: Historical Markings - 08/16/14 10:18 PM

I didn't know that the no swastika laws were in Russia as well. I thought that it was the opposite. When IL-2 was still being handled by 1C Maddox, they did their own publishing in Russia but left the international publishing to Ubi Soft. That was why the swastika was available in the Russian version but not the international version. If I am not mistaken, the typical "Historical Marking" mods were based on using files from the Russian version of the game. Can somebody confirm or deny this? I apologize if my memory on this is fuzzy.

And for those who argue that it doesn't matter because you can't see the swastika while you are flying the plane, just remember that you cannot see most of the rest of the exterior either. So if the wheels looked like chicken feet, I guess you wouldn't mind that either? I prefer the option of historical accuracy. That means I don't want to foist it on others, I just prefer it as an availability for my enjoyment.
Posted By: Gambit21

Re: Historical Markings - 08/16/14 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: letterboy1

And for those who argue that it doesn't matter because you can't see the swastika while you are flying the plane, just remember that you cannot see most of the rest of the exterior either.


Exactly - which is why the small detail of a Swastika is hardly an issue - we'll leave the chicken feet hyperbole out of it.

Not all German pilots were Nazis either, and I certainly don't feel some odd need to have that symbol on my aircraft when flying a 109 in a simulation, nor do I feel bad for others who don't have it. It's hardly an adversity nor does it affect the beautify of the aircraft.
(unlike chicken feet)
Posted By: bisher

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 03:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Gambit21
You can't see it when you're flying anyway so who cares?


It does take away from the screenshot aspect of this flight sim. But I'm assuming this is a rhetlcal question, not offered for open disucssion about this. Not sure why
Posted By: bisher

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 03:52 AM

Originally Posted By: letterboy1

And for those who argue that it doesn't matter because you can't see the swastika while you are flying the plane, just remember that you cannot see most of the rest of the exterior either.


Unless you fly with external views ON. My preferance
Posted By: bisher

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 04:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Gambit21
It's hardly an adversity nor does it affect the beautify of the aircraft.
(unlike chicken feet)


From my biased view my german aircraft look more authentic with a swastika somewhere on the aircraft. I don't even know if this is authentic or not but it's my preference

I'm doing fly by view, external view, aircraft to target view and with the symbol they use it does take something away from the immersion. This is my experience
Posted By: clayman

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 04:40 AM

Thanks for the chuckle Gambit ... I needed that. Oh, and might it not make my plane go faster! biggrin
Posted By: LukeFF

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 04:44 AM

deadhorse

This topic yet again?
Posted By: RainMan

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 07:53 AM

It's not a dead horse, it's the pursuit of realism. smile

It's nothing more like a race-sim enthusiast looking for car or helmet liveries that match those of the real world, even though the developer might not have put them into the game, for, let's say licensing reasons. It's the same principle.

If we "demand" to have complex engine management (because it's realistic), we might as well have authentic looking skins on our planes. Many simmers claim to be "rivet counters", and that might include the authentic look of WW2 German planes - and any other vehicle that's modelled.

Even if countries forbid the display of swastikas (FYI - in Germany it's not forbidden within historical context, such as books, movies, etc - not sure if simulations fall under that), players should be able to ask for how to enable/get them if they're not visible by default. The display of swastikas is usually only illegal when it's used to glorify national socialism. That's clearly not the case with our simulation hobby... Here, it's simply a matter of authenticity.
Posted By: Fish40

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 09:23 AM

Thanks. Some of you get it.
Posted By: theOden

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 04:18 PM

Originally Posted By: LukeFF
deadhorse

This topic yet again?

Why did you click on the thread, or even reply to it?
Do you spend way too much time on the internet?
Posted By: bisher

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 04:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Fish40
Thanks. Some of you get it.


Yes and you guys trying to squash this conversation are doing no favor for this game. A strong game will stand on it's own merits with or without swastika's. Some do not seem so confident with this.
Posted By: Johan217

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 05:56 PM

They should put a Hello Kitty in its place and stick it to the Nazis once and for all winkngrin

I think the used emblem looks very similar from certain angles. But yes, maybe a regular Balkenkreuz would have been less conspicuous.
Posted By: Gambit21

Re: Historical Markings - 08/17/14 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: bisher
Originally Posted By: Gambit21
It's hardly an adversity nor does it affect the beautify of the aircraft.
(unlike chicken feet)


From my biased view my german aircraft look more authentic with a swastika somewhere on the aircraft. I don't even know if this is authentic or not but it's my preference

I'm doing fly by view, external view, aircraft to target view and with the symbol they use it does take something away from the immersion. This is my experience


I have no particular attachment to them being present or not - I just don't get the attachment by those who think they're necessary and feel the need to start threads about it.
The last thing I notice about a 109 or 190 in flyby view is the Swastika - it's an afterthought.
Posted By: Fish40

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 01:08 AM

I didn't feel the need to start anything. I asked a simple question, if historical markings would be an option. As others mentioned, it's an historical issue for me. I feel the AC look more authentic with the appropriate markings. While we're at it, why not alter the Red Star on the Russian AC? Stalin and his bunch were no saints either.
Posted By: Sluggish Controls

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 01:38 AM

Historical markings would be great for screenshots, little luck I suspect. The most talented of us can always do a photoshop job.

On a side note, always wondered if any Luftwaffe pilots actually had the Swastika removed from their rudder during those years. Understandably not a wise idea to make such a political statement at the time, but does anyone know if ever attempted?

Cheers,
Slug
Posted By: Gambit21

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 02:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Fish40
I didn't feel the need to start anything. I asked a simple question, if historical markings would be an option. As others mentioned, it's an historical issue for me. I feel the AC look more authentic with the appropriate markings. While we're at it, why not alter the Red Star on the Russian AC? Stalin and his bunch were no saints either.


I get it Fish
Posted By: LukeFF

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 10:43 AM

Originally Posted By: theOden
Why did you click on the thread, or even reply to it?


Because it's a dead, old, and stale issue, and we've all heard the arguments a billion times before. Nobody is saying anything here that hasn't been said countless times before on practically every WWII flight sim forum on the internet.

Quote:
Do you spend way too much time on the internet?


No, and why would you care anyways if I did?
Posted By: letterboy1

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 03:13 PM

Fish40, I can almost guarantee you that in one way or another you will be able to get swastikas on the German planes. Because of certain laws such as in Germany (no swastikas on toys; video game equals toy) you will not get an in-game option to instantly enable swastikas on all German planes, at least not from the publisher.

Based on how various modders answered the demand for historically accurate plane markings in the original IL-2 titles, you might get an external app that puts the swastika on all German planes or you will eventually see enough user-created "skins" or "paint jobs" that you can select per plane or perhaps replace all German skins using an external app.

The desire for these markings is by far not a stale or dead issue. The need for others to tell you why you don't need them certainly is. wink
Posted By: bisher

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 03:25 PM

Originally Posted By: letterboy1
The desire for these markings is by far not a stale or dead issue. The need for others to tell you why you don't need them certainly is. wink


Well said letterboy1
Posted By: knightgames

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 04:43 PM

Originally Posted By: bisher
Originally Posted By: letterboy1
The desire for these markings is by far not a stale or dead issue. The need for others to tell you why you don't need them certainly is. wink


Well said letterboy1


No staler or dead than the swastika whiners who already have a well documented answer that states there will be no swastika in the game. This debate has been going on since IL2.

On a related side note. Last week my brother took his son on vacation to Munich and took a tour of many WW2 related locations within the city. The tour guide had a relatively large library of materials to show before taking them on the guided tour. While going through the materials he literally looked around to make sure no one was looking so he could show images that contained the swastika. Don't know if the man was overly paranoid or if things are that tight regarding the display on the emblem.
Posted By: Peally

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 05:20 PM

Dead? No. Stale? Oh yes, very much so.
Posted By: icuucme37

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 06:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Fish40
I didn't feel the need to start anything. I asked a simple question, if historical markings would be an option. As others mentioned, it's an historical issue for me. I feel the AC look more authentic with the appropriate markings. While we're at it, why not alter the Red Star on the Russian AC? Stalin and his bunch were no saints either.


Because Stalin was on the winning side of things.... Even if you did the same wrongs or maybe even worst, if you on the winning side, all will be forgiving and forgotten.... All countries did and condoned atrocities..... Japan probably was worst of all, yet very few within Japans military was ever trailed for war crimes.....
Posted By: Gambit21

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: icuucme37
Originally Posted By: Fish40
I didn't feel the need to start anything. I asked a simple question, if historical markings would be an option. As others mentioned, it's an historical issue for me. I feel the AC look more authentic with the appropriate markings. While we're at it, why not alter the Red Star on the Russian AC? Stalin and his bunch were no saints either.


Because Stalin was on the winning side of things.... Even if you did the same wrongs or maybe even worst, if you on the winning side, all will be forgiving and forgotten.... All countries did and condoned atrocities..... Japan probably was worst of all, yet very few within Japans military was ever trailed for war crimes.....


Hmm...might want to re-think that one - it has nothing to do with winning vs losing.
There's some off the rails logic going on here.

Yes many died under Stalin, yes many died at the hands of the Japanese in various ways...the Swastika isn't just about how
many people died. Like LukeFF said, this has all been beaten to death in the past..over and over. Debating it yet
again is pointless. You don't have them now, nor will you ever through the developer, get over it. You'll have them later
through 3rd party skinners and you can fly around with your Swastika all you want.
Posted By: Peally

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: icuucme37
Originally Posted By: Fish40
I didn't feel the need to start anything. I asked a simple question, if historical markings would be an option. As others mentioned, it's an historical issue for me. I feel the AC look more authentic with the appropriate markings. While we're at it, why not alter the Red Star on the Russian AC? Stalin and his bunch were no saints either.


Because Stalin was on the winning side of things.... Even if you did the same wrongs or maybe even worst, if you on the winning side, all will be forgiving and forgotten.... All countries did and condoned atrocities..... Japan probably was worst of all, yet very few within Japans military was ever trailed for war crimes.....


Correct. And if it was illegal to show a red soviet star I'd be OK with it having a hole in the middle too. It's a minor compromise considering the lost revenue and ease of reversal.
Posted By: bisher

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Gambit21
Like LukeFF said, this has all been beaten to death in the past..over and over. Debating it yet
again is pointless


You are going to reference LukeFF, I see him as a bully cheerleader who holds no credibilty in any of these matters.

So are you telling us we should not debate this or are we allowed to choose for ourselves?
Posted By: Peally

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 07:41 PM

Relax children.
Posted By: Gambit21

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: bisher
Originally Posted By: Gambit21
Like LukeFF said, this has all been beaten to death in the past..over and over. Debating it yet
again is pointless


You are going to reference LukeFF, I see him as a bully cheerleader who holds no credibilty in any of these matters.

So are you telling us we should not debate this or are we allowed to choose for ourselves?


It's already been debated endlessly, who I referenced at this juncture is neither here nor there, the fact (which you conveniently left out of your quote) is that this has been beaten into the ground already.
As far as what you're allowed to do - you can bang your head against a brick wall for all I care Bish - that's your choice,
for it will be equally as productive on this matter. Carry on - no hard feelings.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter. Maybe you'll get Swastikas later on 3rd party skins (as already mentioned) so any way you look
at it there's no issue and no reason for debate. The Devs already have a policy in place which isn't going to change = no debate to be had.

Pretty simple stuff. smile
Cheers
Posted By: bisher

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 09:23 PM

Cheers my ass lol
Posted By: Gambit21

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 09:39 PM

It's all good.
We're all on the same side.
Posted By: SlipBall

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 09:43 PM

I think that its crazy to pretend something different was on the tail of those aircraft...I buy sims to simulate the history, talk about immersion killer...most likely a show stopper for me ahoy
Posted By: Peally

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 09:48 PM

That's a shame.

I hear the russian helmets don't have the same amount of polygons as in real life either...



I wish I knew who made the comment recently, but he was right. Flight simmers will look for every excuse in the book not to buy something.
Posted By: Gambit21

Re: Historical Markings - 08/18/14 09:58 PM

Originally Posted By: SlipBall
I think that its crazy to pretend something different was on the tail of those aircraft...I buy sims to simulate the history, talk about immersion killer...most likely a show stopper for me ahoy


You know what they say about the screen door on the way out - all that.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Historical Markings - 08/19/14 02:09 PM

Stalin killed anyone he thought was a threat to him--which was most of the planet. Hitler had particular ethnicity-based hatreds that have tainted the swastika, despite it being much older than he and assimilated inappropriately by his party.

There is no doubt that Germany has overreacted post-WWII after it spent the decade before under-reacting to what happened under its watch.
The problem is more that despite this ban pro-Nazi sentiment has grown anyway, proving how ineffectual it was.

That said, my question is this: just how many copies of flight sims are purchased in these countries like Germany that ban it anyway? Compare that to how many "I demand realism!" sales are lost from not having them.

Which is higher?



The Jedi Master
Posted By: KrustyvonKlown

Re: Historical Markings - 08/19/14 07:40 PM

Originally Posted By: SlipBall
I think that its crazy to pretend something different was on the tail of those aircraft...I buy sims to simulate the history, talk about immersion killer...most likely a show stopper for me ahoy


That is ridiculous, but we're probably better off if you stay away from this game.
Posted By: bisher

Re: Historical Markings - 08/19/14 09:16 PM

Well, I'm thankful it will not be a show stopper for me, but appreciate what SlipBall is saying
Posted By: Happyflier

Re: Historical Markings - 08/19/14 10:21 PM

me too, not a show stopper by any means, but disappointing albeit for understandable reasons. And happy that no doubt it will be correctable in the aftermarket
Posted By: letterboy1

Re: Historical Markings - 08/19/14 11:44 PM

The lack of swastikas in the publisher's release will not be a show stopper! Third party enthusiasts will create options to put the historical markings in place! For those of us that want the f*cking swastikas (and I am one), we will get the option. This is a fact like the earth is round. smile
Posted By: knightgames

Re: Historical Markings - 08/20/14 04:29 AM

Originally Posted By: SlipBall
I think that its crazy to pretend something different was on the tail of those aircraft...I buy sims to simulate the history, talk about immersion killer...most likely a show stopper for me ahoy



I hope it's not a show stopper. Doesn't seem logical that something that will probably be corrected with user made skins would keep you away or keep you from enjoying a gaming experience that you look forward to.

I fly sims to simulate the experience. I know not everything will be perfect, but if developers can come close enough to suspend disbelief then I feel they have succeeded. Historical accuracy is important but it takes a back seat to the overall excitement of flying the airplanes I fantasized about as a youth. It was the hunt. It was the evasion. It was seeing the earth scream toward me as I dove in for the kill. It was the trail of fire from my expertly aimed barrage of hellfire on my enemy. Developers have come so far in adding to the realism of flight sims that it seems a shame to avoid it because of a marking on the tail fin of an airplane.
Posted By: wheelsup_cavu

Re: Historical Markings - 08/20/14 06:27 AM

I am in the "it doesn't matter to me" crowd but I am not going to denigrate those who want them.

Imo, skinning planes for IL-2 BoS will not be as free and open as the original IL-2 if they are anything like Rise of Flight skins and with that in mind I do not believe that getting swastikas enabled will be anywhere near as easy as many want to believe.


Wheels
Posted By: csThor

Re: Historical Markings - 08/20/14 07:36 AM

Back around 2009 the Russian Federation created a new law that prohibits "spreading NS propaganda". Unfortunately they forgot to include precise explanations of what counted as such. In reaction to this 1C decided back then to remove the swastika (and similar emblems) from all its future titles to be on the safe side. That's the background.

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
There is no doubt that Germany has overreacted post-WWII after it spent the decade before under-reacting to what happened under its watch.
The problem is more that despite this ban pro-Nazi sentiment has grown anyway, proving how ineffectual it was.


I'll let you in on a secret: It wasn't just germans who insisted on banning these emblems. The US, British and French military governments of the three occupation zones insisted on it as part of the de-nazification process as well. Well, duh!

EDIT: Forgot one thing: Neonazi parties such as NPD and its cabal are getting consistently less than 2% in german polls, even though participation hovers around 50% of all voters. Some local elections have brought these parties temporary gains as people frustrated with standard parties voted after leaving their brain on the nightstand. But none of these "parties" are in any position to gain influence as they're outcasts (politically and socially), because they're too busy destroying themselves from within (Haha!) and they don't have much of a following here, anyway. They are in no way comparable to Front National or Golden Dawn (to name the two whose names might be known outside Europe).


Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
That said, my question is this: just how many copies of flight sims are purchased in these countries like Germany that ban it anyway? Compare that to how many "I demand realism!" sales are lost from not having them.

Which is higher?


Germany is one if not the most important flight sim markets in Europe. Apart from the Russian Federation the original Il-2 is said to have sold best here in Krautland. wink

And quite honestly: If anyone decides not to buy a sim merely because of a missing swastika (yammering about a lack of "historical accuracy") then there's no love lost on my part. Such thinking is small-minded and childish in my opinion.
Posted By: Fish40

Re: Historical Markings - 08/20/14 10:11 PM

I seem to have ignited an old flame fest, which was not my intention. When I enquired about the option of historical markings, a simple reference to the Devs policy would have been a sufficient answer. Maybe my comment of this omission being an immersion killer was not the best choice of words. This is certainly not a show stopper for me, and yes, I do intend to purchase the sim. I should have realized from the whole IL2 series, that the Swastika was only available as a Mod. I think we could now stop the flame throwing and sarcasm please!
Posted By: Peally

Re: Historical Markings - 08/21/14 12:55 AM

You have dug up a very, very old argument indeed biggrin
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Historical Markings - 08/21/14 02:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Fish40
I think we could now stop the flame throwing and sarcasm please!


No man can stop the sarcasm.




The Jedi Master
Posted By: Gambit21

Re: Historical Markings - 08/21/14 11:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Originally Posted By: Fish40
I think we could now stop the flame throwing and sarcasm please!


No man can stop the sarcasm.




The Jedi Master


Eowyn can
If you get that you're a geek - just FYI.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Historical Markings - 08/22/14 01:23 PM

Yes, because she is no man. Not said in the book, of course, only the film.



The Jedi Master
Posted By: letterboy1

Re: Historical Markings - 08/22/14 05:25 PM

It's not dark and this is not a classroom.
Posted By: Jedi Master

Re: Historical Markings - 08/22/14 08:56 PM

Depends on where you access the site from though, doesn't it? It MIGHT be...



The Jedi Master
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