News...

Have a look... Developer diary...

As usual, All good news

Cheers,
Slug

Wow. The combination of IL2 and the Pe2 should be a lot of fun. Will bring back so many memories of the good old days of IL2 and multiplayer on Hyperlobby.

Same for me Mohawk

I recall flying against you and Dart on occasion

Mohawk, during one battle you and I got into a great turning fight, each of us doing circles in the opposite direction, we shooting at each other as we converged. I had a nice screen shot of us during one of our later passes, we were getting closer and closer to hitting each other and in this pic we seemed inches apart!

Yep, remember those dogfights. I think you were part of one of the training videos that Dart had put together regarding the "Hi-Lo" wingman technique.

It might be this one which you can still get at Dart's site.

How to work as a wingman pair - 34 MB, an example of how wingman can work together to take on one enemy - more of a familiarization to give the idea of the High/Low, In/Out technique we try to use in the 2GvSAP.
Source: http://www.darts-page.com/movies2.htm

Dart recently got his site up and running again and even logged into SimHQ.


Wheels

lol that was great!

I even got credit for being 'some poor guy online', sweet!

I did not realize the fight went on for that long

Thanks Wheels, good memories

Most people who have flown BOS with the Oculus Rift seem impressed. Hopefully Jason got his hands on the HD prototype at the show for a quick test.

They gave us an HD unit to test for a couple hours, but it did not work with our implantation. Something needed to be tweaked and we did not have time, but an HD prototype unit does exist. They did give us a new dev kit unit for free though. So there will be two in Moscow office.

Jason

I know the OR still needs a lot of work, but do you think the development crew will be able to fully implement the OR in BOS. I believe the OR, or something very much like it, will be revolutionary in so many tasks, and in particular, flight sims. Although very low latency headtracking and a resolution that will allow spotting aircraft at a distance will be critical for combat flight sims.

We've already implemented the dev kit as we have shown at Gamescom. When they send us a permanent HD version we'll implement it too. The ball is now in Oculus's corner. We've done our part so far. Back to focusing on more important issues at hand.

Jason

That seems rather inflammatory and uncalled for, Jason. I don't see anything in Chivas's post that merited a personal attack.

The guy's just excited about the Rift and asking questions about its implementation in BoS, isn't he?

Nice...not sure which one of us is being dense. I'm well aware that you implemented the OR's developers kit for BOS, but I have no idea how well you were able to implement it, and what technical issues there might be. In your last post you answered my question about the HD prototype, but you said "it did not work with our implantation". Hence my question on your thoughts of future implementations.

"They gave us an HD unit to test for a couple hours, but it did not work with our implantation. Something needed to be tweaked and we did not have time, but an HD prototype unit does exist. They did give us a new dev kit unit for free though. So there will be two in Moscow office."

Didn't seem like a personal attack to me, more of a clip round the ear.

People are very brave over the internet, but a much different story face to face.

I read it as "we have a compressed schedule to get all this stuff done that is very important and you're asking about how much time we're spending on a luxury item that may or may not be out by release and that likely maybe 1% of the customers will have?" In Jason's place I wouldn't be very diplomatic about it either.

OR support is the classic example of "a feature that can be added later." BoS does not need it on release.




The Jedi Master

Ah, if you're too busy to answer a question appropriately, don't

This 'I'm too busy to answer your question, but I'm answering anyways' is confusing

Like no one has ever gotten personal with me. I edited my post. Sorry to offend. Chivas has posted the same questions in several posts in different forums about Oculus and clearly lobbying us to support OR which we clearly are. The HD unit has no updated dev kit to allow us to support it. When they give us one we will work on it. As I stated before we have implemented OR to the maximum currently allowed and it looks good and everyone at GC was thrilled. What else can I say? We've done enough with Oculus for now.

Jason

I wasn't demanding that the OR be implemented, or a time frame for that implementation. Three weeks ago Loft was very impressed by the OR's developer kit Jason gave him, and he hoped to have it implemented for Gamescom. I just asked how the implementation went, like are there any technical issues, and if they had a chance to test the HD prototype that might have been available at the game show. I'm not sure how anyone could find that disrespectful of their development schedule.

The Oculus Rift is hardly a luxury item, it will replace the far more expensive TrackIR/ 3D 1080P Mult-Monitor setup, and will give you ten times the immersion. "If" they can continue to increase the resolution and decrease the tracking latency it will be hardware in high demand. They now have more than enough funding, and are hiring some of the brightest minds in the industry, to supplement their already dedicated crew to get it done. It might even be difficult to procure as it could be in demand, by the medical, military, architectural, and gaming industries, etc etc.

The fact that the OR is cheap compared to what its replacing will make its use much higher than 1%. Even people not interested in combat flight sims would buy BOS just to experience the feel of flight if they happened to own an OR. Especially if BOS is an early adopter, and one of the few flight sims with the OR implemented.

Its seems clear though Chivas, that they have already implemented OR in BOS, as Jason said a new version of OR just needs tweaking, and they cant do that until they get more hands on time with the HD version.

Implementing OR into software from what ive seen does not need major time or work, i wouldn't worry about it, it will happen.

I know your very excited about OR, iam too.

I dont think you shouldn't of asked your question and i dont think you were being disrespectful either, just as i didn't see Jason comment as a personal attack, i just think Jason is a bit knackered from a week of travelling and working at Gamecom (and the last 9 months too prob) and was a little short of patience.

OR is probably a PITA to implement. The 1080p unit even more so as it requires two separate renders of the same scene from different perspectives at the same time. Thats going to hurt your FPS.

Is it two separate renders, or one render of a higher resolution (like the images split amongst 2 to 3 screens) that is then broken up by the OR software and sent to the device?

If it was two separate renders, every other frame would be rendered in each eye which just wouldn't work.

But honestly, grinding away on constantly inquiring into the OR implementation time and again makes little sense until a consumer version is literally on the horizon and has the proper software to be developed for.

Let's continue to keep the cool heads, folks. I really like the way this community has maintained an overall respectful atmosphere while still discussing differences of opinion. Let's not blow it.

It makes every sense for the OR developer to hear from game developers how they can support each other. Otherwise they wouldn't bother sending out the SDK and OR developers kits. Loft is very interested in the OR and implemented the developers kit in BOS in less than three weeks. I'm sure Loft might have suggestions that could help the OR developer.

Grinding away? I asked if the OR was going to be implemented in BOS once in the IL-2 forums, and once in the SimHq forums, the rest of my posts were discussions with other forum members the merits of the OR, not pestering the developer on whether or not it should be implemented.

We know they have implemented the OR dev kit to it's fullest, as that's all they have access to. So this:

I know the OR still needs a lot of work, but do you think the development crew will be able to fully implement the OR in BOS

is sort of pushing the matter into territory that doesn't even exist since what is available is fully implemented from what I've read. The HD version is next in line, but can't be fully implemented without it being available to implement since it, and the rest of the product, is still tech demo stage.

I was well aware three weeks ago that Loft was going to try to implement the OR in BOS. We knew from members at Gamescom that Loft was able to deliver in quite a short period of time, and users were impressed with BOS, and the OR. We didn't know how the developer felt about its implementation. It was simple question on how the implementation went, and if they were able to try the HD prototype. Not sure why it got such a weird reaction, but I can guess.

Timeline...reading it again I can see where Jason might have misconstrued what I was saying.

Chivas said...Most people who have flown BOS with the Oculus Rift seem impressed. Hopefully Jason got his hands on the HD prototype at the show for a quick test.


Jasons said...They gave us an HD unit to test for a couple hours, but it did not work with our implantation. Something needed to be tweaked and we did not have time, but an HD prototype unit does exist. They did give us a new dev kit unit for free though. So there will be two in Moscow office.

Jasons comment about the HD unit "it did not work with our implantation. Something needed to be tweaked and we did not have time" This made me wonder what Jason's thoughts were on implementing the consumer version, did Loft see any issues? so I asked...I see now I should have said consumer version instead of fully, but I thought that was obvious.


Chivas said...I know the OR still needs a lot of work, but do you think the development crew will be able to fully implement the OR in BOS. I believe the OR, or something very much like it, will be revolutionary in so many tasks, and in particular, flight sims. Although very low latency headtracking and a resolution that will allow spotting aircraft at a distance will be critical for combat flight sims.


Jason said...Don't be dense Chivas. We've already implemented the dev kit as we have shown at Gamescom. When they send us a permanent HD version we'll implement it too. The ball is now in Oculus's corner. We've done our pat so far. Back to focusing on more important issues at hand.

I was well aware that the developers kit was implemented. I know users liked it, I wondered what Loft thought about its implementation, and possible issues that would need to be addressed with the consumer version.

I viewed Jason's comment as friendly banter. You know, like there would have been in the dispersal hut. How times have changed.

That's how i saw it. no need for knickers to get twisted.

Indeed, but I have seen this 'friendly banter' several times. It's getting in the way of me anticipating this sim. This is the real danger, nothing to do with knickers. Serious gaming stuff.

Your such a fibber Bish, i heard from my mate, who knows this guy, who once spoke to someone, who once went on holiday in Canada, who said this Bish guy doesn't even play flight sims.

He said you like games with elves, dragons and sometimes fairies.

Are the fairies wearing knickers?.....Im lost here....

All the guy said was don't be dense .. for crying out loud.. Some people get so wound up over this stuff it just blows my mind.. Things that, if said in a bar over a beer would most likely be be met with a "STFU you don't know what you're talking about... " said with a smile followed by an order for another round and all would be well.

Sometimes it just seems like people get all thin skinned sensitive when online ... and then they will turn around a curse you out in a PM because of it.. (Not saying that this is what Chivas did at all .. just in general.. and I have had that experience ) I could see it if a person was getting cussed out or called a bunch of names... but dense.. C'mon ... jeeze louise..

It's the internet..

Getting back on topic though... Do we know what the final cost of an OR will be?

I asked a simple question on the implementation of the OR. Then replied once to Jason's dense comment. I then replied to a few people who saw a chance to throw a few more adjectives my way, much like your doing now.

Back on topic. No word on the final cost of the OR, other than they're hoping to keep the price at around three hundred dollars, even lower if it can be bundled with software. Its cheap considering what we'd pay for the things it would replace. TrackIR and multiple 3D HD monitors.

The thread topic was actually on the PE-2 screenshots... ahem, but I digress

By the looks of things its going to take a few revisions before we get a viable product for flight sims, even the HD version might not be good enough to be competitive in a hardcore flight sim.




http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-hands-on-with-oculus-rift

I have great hopes that OR develops into a great product that does all we need in a flight sim and as soon as it does, im buying one but its at least 2 years away yet IMO.

I think you are misreading the market.

You may have TIR and multiple monitors. Some others may. I, for example, have a single 24" monitor I bought like 3 years and TIR 4 I bought long before the 5 came out. I know there are many simmers who don't have TIR. I know there are many who don't have multiple monitors. Those who have both is not as large a number as you may think. I know there are those who don't even have a HOTAS, or even a set of rudder pedals.

For those with one monitor and possibly TIR 3, or who are living paycheck to paycheck, the OR is most certainly a luxury item. You are projecting your own desires and willingness to spend onto others whose values are NOT automatically your own.

I'd like an OR, but I seriously doubt I'll get one, even if I wasn't unemployed. But of course, as someone who's been flying flight sims for over 25 years and has owned thousands of dollars of hardware used just for simming (even though the PC and monitor are used for more than that) between CH, Logitech, Thrustmaster, and ACT Labs, I suppose I'm not the target audience. I'd rather spend the money OR costs on new software that I can rely on performing as expected than on a first-gen VR head tracking set.




The Jedi Master

I may have totally misread the market, but the possibilities of more people wanting to experience flight sims because of the possible high immersion levels of the OR could increase exponentially.

My point on the OR is that people wouldn't have to buy the more expensive TRackIR/decent monitor combination and experience even higher immersion at a much lower price point.

The developers know they have to get the first consumer version right. They now have the financing, and have hired even more of the brightest minds in the industry to get it done. Now its just a wait and see, as the consumer version will have to have a much higher resolution than 1920x1080 to effectively spot aircraft, and very low latency's to avoid motion blur and smooth headtracking. Time will tell.

Everyone has to have a monitor. OR doesn't replace that need. It will still be required for other operations.

And OR definitely will not bring people into flight Sims. Flight Sims will get some into using OR, but not the inverse.

Man has always wanted to explore flight. The OR could possibly be the most immersive way to do just that without leaving the ground. So yes there is a good chance that anyone interested in buying the OR, just might buy a flight sim along with other gaming software, for that experience.

People are always upgrading their Monitors and even TrackIR's. I've bought a quite a number of Computer systems, upgrading CPU's, GPU's, Memory, Monitors, and TrackIR versions{V1/V3/V5} in the last fifteen years of flight simming. For the last two years, I've looking to upgrade my current monitors, for a new gaming monitor, but the industry has concentrated on 3D monitors neglecting most other possible innovations. I've stopped looking as the OR might just be what I'm looking for, and my current office 37" HD TV, and 27" HD monitor, will still do just fine for web surfing etc.

Since this is the NEWS thread I'm gonna put it here.
We'll be live streaming the game on August 29th and showing Bf.109F-4 giving commentary and answering some questions from the forums and possibly chats. In Russian again, sorry for inconvenience, we're still inventing a proper way to make them bilingual or purely English. Also Jason will be on the ROF Teamspeak Channel giving commentary in English (TS3 Server, address: 37.139.8.9:7777, PW: 1917)
Starting 16:00 GMT/ 8:00 PST (8 p.m. here in Moscow)
http://www.twitch.tv/il2sturmovik
The record with subs will be published on Friday, I think.

Great Zakzak, can't wait to see the BF109 in action.

You keep saying that, but it makes no sense. Some people are interested in flight, most don't care. If that were true, more people would buy those low cost introductory flights that run around $60 to $80 for a one hour session but in fact most small airports don't have that many people come in for them.

It was great! oh man that F4 looked fantastic, best looking 109 ive ever seen in a sim, the lighting on the models is superb.

Though as great as the feed was, what was even better idea was getting Jason on TS in a Q and A, i dont know if he can do that every time and i dont expect it, but it was great listening to all the questions and answers.

Well done loft, Zak, Jason and the team.

It makes a lot of sense. Many people would just as soon experience the feel of flight from their Lazyboy, and avoid any risk.

pic from the feed....

That s pretty much my take as well.... For me TIR and 3 monitors si counter immersive. I would rather have one 32" monitor and TIR than 3 24" monitors and TIR.. OR is going to be a game changer no doubt.. but I doubt if everyone will run ut and drop their TIRs for an OR and I know a lot of guys who feel the same way I do about a 3 monitor setup. I see those setups with the wings looking like one of those swept wing exotic AC and I go .. no thanks.. When I can get an OR with an adjustable translucent screen preferably splittable either vertically or horizontally or not at all, I may get one.. but till then.. I can wait..and I don't think I am alone in that.. but it is a long sought after piece of gear..

No man, it doesn't. Man isn't interested in flight, as much as Discovery would like to lead people to believe it - just the same as Aliens guy would like us to believe Aliens exist.

A few are interested, but not a whole lot. The few that are, are already here and in the niche market.

No one is going to go "wow, $300 piece of VR that I've always needed to get interested in flight on a computer, better go buy a $100+ joystick, $50+ pedals, I've always wanted to fly but didn't care to until OR!"

Even if that were true, OR is a few years away from being viable for flight simulation let alone air combat simulation.

Interesting tech, hopefully it pans out but it's not the "life giver" to air combat simulations.

I recently went up to 3 screens. iRacing and Warthunder are much more immersive than my single screen setup.

The OR seems cool, but I have a feeling it's going to take a few versions of it to come out before I buy one.

I'm aware that its all still WIP, but sitting on the runway prior to the take off, engine at redline for several minutes, aircraft as still as a...I just have to question the physics of it all

Loft and Jason said in the live feed, the FX and particles for blown snow, dust, smoke and fire from engine have not been added yet but are coming soon.

These planes don't bounce around on start-up or throttling up like the WWI counterparts with rotaries.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ff7_1360175554

Try rereading some of my posts. People who already bought the OR for their particular game genre, or have never played sims could buy flight sim software, for that experience. The OR is new hardware that should change the way we play sims, and interest people who have never had any interest in games period, start. All you have to do is watch a few youtube videos of people who have bought the prototypes showing the hardware to their families. They go from disinterest in gaming and hardware, to, I want one.

The screen door effect is one of the issues that will have to be addressed for competitive combat flight simmers, but the mind quickly fills in the blanks when flying casually, enjoying the feel of flight, touring different parts of the world. This type of hardware could reinvigorate flight simming.

The developers are well aware that 1920x1080 just isn't good enough for detailed work, when the eyes are so close to the screen. The smartphone/tablet industries are continuing to develop much higher resolutions which will benefit the OR developers in their search for the best screen possible. If the existing screens aren't exactly what they need, I believe the demand for the OR will be high enough from several industries that they will be able to have manufactures build if possible, screens closer to the size, pixel density, and refresh rate they might require. We should have more info on the developers search for the best screens before the end of this year.

The smartphone industry is continuing to improve screens while keeping the price point basically the same, so the OR should be able to have a decent screen for the consumer version, or even have a few different versions at different price points. I know I would want, and would require the best possible screen for combat flight sims, and would pay much more than three hundred dollars. The price would probably still be lower than the price of the TrackIR and a monitor with the same resolution. The system required to drive that hardware, and detailed gaming software at a decent consistent frame rate will be top end. That said you will not have to get into flight sims to that extent, to enjoy them.

The OR is especially suited to the genre, so when advertisements of the OR start, they are likely to include flight sims. People who where never interested in gaming before, will be interested when exposed to the Oculus Rift, and by extension a percentage of those new people will venture into the flight simming world to whatever degree that suits them.

Unless OR has the free version of ROF included on a DVD with its drivers, I don't see any particular bump in flight sim interest from OR.

Will simmers want OR to work? Yes, of course, and I can see them buying one solely for a flight sim.

However, OR's market is going to be people who play CoD, BF, and Skyrim. First person games will be the big thing because the market for that is huge.

MMOs are played in 3rd person and I'm sure some of those people will like OR as well, but I'm not sure how many.
RTS and other strategy games? Eh...maybe. Generally speaking you need tight control of your camera to follow what's happening, so I don't really see it.



The Jedi Master

Hmmm the limitations of OR in FPS puts me off...I've read when you move your head the gun moves so where ever you look the gun faces. Another issue that would drive me nuts is not seeing my keyboard and mouse..esp in a SIM with lots of key presses. I'd also imagine in a FPS the restricted head movement of your typical game would feel odd and I could imagine trying to move your head out of the way of say a punch or sword but obviously it wouldn't happen on screen. I do hope I'm around when virtual reality would be projected all around you//similar to the holo deck in Star Trek (Not sure it was called that..just remember seeing an episode with something like that in it).

Track IR I think is the most suitable way and I imagine once the newness of the OR wears off many simmers will out on their trusty old track IR..as you can tell I'm yet to be convinced.

As for people who aren't interested in gaming suddenly become gamers because of the OR...very, very unlikely. They may put it on and go ooh thats good..but they will still have no interest in playing games. You might get some gamers in Sims..but again if they aren't into them now I doubt they will like them cos of OR. I'm sure it will look amazing in a Car racing sim..but I still wouldn't want to play it ..watch it abit yes..but suddenly start playing racing sims..no.

It really depends on the way a game is designed. In most FPS games, the view is slaved to the crosshair/gun. Games that adopt the TrackIR have to rethink that method. Arma shows how it can be done; view direction independent of where the gun is pointing. So in that respect, the OR isn't that different from TrackIR. Games just need to take it into consideration during the development. Games that get OR support 'tacked on' will require some work, or the cross hair will be slaved to the view.

As for ducking a sword or a punch, the consumer model will need to have the 3 other degrees of freedom that TrackIR has, besides pitch, roll and yaw. Once it does, games have to be designed to use those too.

And it was the holodeck.

Thankfully Loft, and many other game developers have a different opinion. They have purchased the prototype, and are working with the OR SDK development suggesting features, and software improvements for future implementations. If they thought it wouldn't sell more product, they certainly wouldn't bother wasting precious development time. There will always be people holding out for an assortment of reasons, which is fine, but if OR is a decent product most will always moved on. The OR is perfect for flight sims and driving sims as you can only lean/turn etc and don't have any complex walking/running/jumping issues.

The developer is well aware of all peoples worries about the product, real and imagined. Most of the components have now been created by the Smartphone industry, to make VR a reality in the very near future.

[quote=BKHZ_Furbs
Loft and Jason said in the live feed, the FX and particles for blown snow, dust, smoke and fire from engine have not been added yet but are coming soon. [/quote]

They also suggested the aircraft as well as vehicles will leave tracks in the snow.

Heat distortion around the exhaust area would be a nice touch

Yep, and some exhaust fumes in the propeller stream!

MAC

ROF already has heat distortion in aircraft fires so its possible i guess, would be a nice touch.

I guess, but you wouldn't see much of it if you're in the cockpit.

I'd rather the dev hours there go into making sure that the aircraft feel 'right' on different surface conditions: mud, snow, dry dirt, grass, tarmac, etc.

Don't really count to see much grass in IL2BOS but the rest will be present.
A bit of fresh airborne stuff for now

Good god, it looks so good.
It's harder and harder to try to hold back.

I just wish I had more free time...
As it is I'm still unsatisfied with my capacity to put time on RoF.
So much stuff I bought, so little time I played.

With two kids gaming is really bare-boned now.
Ehr... sorry for the rant. It's just really a compliment to you guys.
You really make me want to have a spine. :P

Zak: Thanks for another desktop image to add to my list
komemiute: I know the origin of rant but it gets better for each year, both my boys are well independent now at 14 and 18 and using PlayStation3 as decoy's (chaff/flare/chaff/flare) since a few years one can earn some extra flight hour some nights

It's expensive to live.

Four kids, six grandkids... no, it never stops, and I have to find time to play, and to afford all the goodies that are about in our flight sim world!

Hhehhe, yeah. Lotsa people in our situation!