2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?

"Although the V2.5 upgrade will be available for purchase with the boxed Flanker 2.0, we have every intention of making the upgrade available as a free download. The free download will not be made available until shortly after the Flanker 2.5/Flanker 2.0 bundle is on store shelves in late March. Thank you for your patience."

AFTER it's on the shelves????

SSI need space to sell it to newbies, like the pause between movie releases and DVD/video launches I guess. I say good luck, let them earn some money - I'm still happy flying 2.03a and can wait.

------------------
Rabina
Push Victor 11, go..

Personally i think this decision sucks big time !!

I get really annoyed when things in general are hyped and then not delivered on time !

Its like the Typhoon - Rage debacle - personlly i wish developers would just shut the f*** up about stuff , until such time as stuff is actually released to shops for purchase or download !

My opinion !!, the flip side of all this hype and disapointment is just this - disappointment !

I dunno about you guys but i think about sims most of the day - i was really looking forward to downloading the patch real soon - despite whatever positive stuff is said after my comments about the developer - yadda yadda yadda - i am still annoyed !

Careless talk costs lives , careless hype causes anger , frustration and disappointment !

Enough said

Troff :-0 :-(

Troffmeister's Simulation Zone
http://www.daviesr.freeserve.co.uk

Roger@Daviesr.freeserve.co.uk
Icq 58124596

Well said. And Carl just doesn't get it. If they would have never told us it would be availible for free at the end of this month then no one would care. Heck we'd all be happy campers. But that is NOT what they did. Very bad public relations! There are a lot of angry Flanker fans out there, just go to the O'Club.

Louie 'Zeke'

------------------

You're absolutely right. unfortunately, this is probably a sales decision (and I personally dislike sales departments at companies 'cause they promise a lot but usually don't bother to check if it is at all possible.

If you promise not to tell I must say though that I think it's very admirable that Matt and Carl at least take the time to answer a lot of the questions and remarks posted.

"Have strength, brothers and sisters!"

Gert

Come on guys...this was supposed to cost us another $30-$40...give Carl and Matt a break...they love sims and have supported FLanker 2.0 well. They got to pay salaries too...even sim developers gotta eat. What a month.

2.5 will be available free...now who else in the industry would do that?



------------------
dogfight.com

Matt Wagner's statement at the F2 Forum

"Get a grip guys.

One of the stipulations of the deal with EB is that we hold off on releasing the free download until after they get the 2.5 CDs in the stores--makes sense from their end.

I understand your frustration in waiting for 2.5. When I had previously said that I expected it to be available by late February, that was before EB approached us. I apologize for that but stuff happens, particularly in the software biz. Getting 2.0/2.5 back on store shelves is a great opportunity. It not only allows another means to acquire 2.5, but it also allows new users to finally find a copy of 2.0 and join the fold. Additionally, we have a means to recoup at least some of our investment in the project. Weren’t you guys offering to send us money just a bit ago?

Have some patience and chill out for heaven’s sake."

And from Carl:

"Have a little faith in us, we know what we are doing. I'll give you a hint: We're making some strategic moves for this product line that have the potential to pay off for the long run. Try and look at it that way instead of adopting the 'give it to me now' attitude. "

Some reactions:

"As the person in SSI who launched the original Flanker series, I have an ongoing personal and emotional interest in seeing that the series continues, as it evolves into Lock On.
Please back off on giving SSI a hard time on the EB deal, even though it delays the 2.5 release for you all.
From a commercial point of view, I think it is a very smart move, as it will give shelf space to Flanker, and create a new generation of users, and new enthusiasts for the next generation."

"Don't let these guys razz you like this. They should be kissing your butt for giving 2.5 away like you are. Maybe you should just cancel it, now that would give them something to bitch about."


"Thanks Matt for updating us on this matter. Do not let the ones who know nothing of running a business and making it profitable ruin your good graces here. I appreciate the free upgrade and will quietly wait on its release. Thanks to the team there!"

"If it means that SSI will be able to further penetrate the market and make some money back on their invested time in the 2.5 upgrade then the month delay is well worth it."

------------------
dogfight.com

[This message has been edited by ral (edited March 02, 2001).]

One more opinion..........


1. Here is an oppotunity to get a few more copies out the door for flanker2. ...good for them!
**************************************************************************************
2. Remind people about this sim for the future upgrade.
*****************************************************************
3. SSI makes a bit more money..... suits are happy. This can only contribute to the life of LOCK ON!.
*****************************************************************************************************************
4. Users still get a free upgrade.
**************************************
5. You can get the entire package for $20.00 and skip the DL
***********************************************************************

What is the downside??

You have to wait 30 days..to get the upgrade for Free..............

Get a grip.........you've got something to look forward to next month when things are slow.

(I understand the dissapointment,[believe me] but everyone ends up on the good side and impatients gets overruled).

Jim




[This message has been edited by jimvictor46 (edited March 02, 2001).]

What I don't understand is why they're waiting till the CD is released before releasing the patch to the public?

It's not like releasing the patch before would hinder sales, since only people with the game can use it.

30 days!!! Ha! Look, they are selling the upgrade now. Do you believe that it's bug free? Are they going to continue to debug it or are they going to continue to issue patches? Because they are selling it, it's a whole new ballgame. They should have left well enough alone. With the free upgrade they could have orphaned it as planned and shined the complaints. Now...??

My advice: Take "the end of March" with a very large grain of salt. Take "soon after it hits the shelves" with a very large grain of salt. Bettter yet forget the salt, forget the whole thing. SSI customer service strikes (out) again.

Well i think i expressed my anger , well enough above , and i am not out to piss off SSI , Matt , Carl etc , coz i love Flanker 2 ! :-)

Infact i am off to fly the other planes in f2 soon via the hack !

My point is though , its like being a kid at xmas , you know your parents have hidden your presents wrapped up , and they are in the attic , you know this but your parents rightly make you wait for xmas day!

But low and behold on xmas eve your parents tell you , xmas is cancelled , santa has been assassinated - the reindeers have foot and mouth disease , and you might get your xmas pressies at easter if ya lucky along with some chocolate and the easter bunny - assuming Electronics Boutique don't come along in the meantime with a squad from Delta Force / SAS and hold them to ransom !

Now do you understand my anger and disapointment , we have been waiting patiently , and we have been opening up the windows to our advent calenders and eating the choccy - in anticipation of the 2.5 patch which should have been due now !!!

Grrrrrrr i am madder than a march hair ! hee hee !
GRRRRR GRRRRR GRRRR GRRRRR

Troff :-0

Reading the post above, it seems EB have insisted upon it as a condition of their distributing the 2.5 CD pack.

Back to flying 2.03 for me... I'm disappointed, but if this deal gets more cash money to the development team, it'll be worth it.

You guys know this is a game right?

Come to grips with reality please.

You are getting something that took a lot of time and effort for free when it's available... what more do you need?

Zeke, I'm suprised to see you so upset. What's the problem? After this reaction I seriously doubt the community will be given any timelines whatsoever in the future, including details on features until they are set in stone.

You guys ultimately hurt yourselves and the rest of us with this kind of childish attitude.

Stinger

I've never seen such poor attitudes and unrealistic expectations.

Stinger is correct about our being very guarded with dates from this point on. But now we will be denying other users who are understanding by not giving them information that they realize is subject to change.

I'm not emotional about this because I don't take any of my business life personally, but I will say that I am very disappointed.

Louie, your suggestion that we never give out information would be a real popular move with the guys at the O'Club, I'm sure. Maybe we should just get rid of our website so that we don't give anyone the wrong idea and we'd never have to worry about changes or taking the opportunities that present themselves to us.

Troff, what hype? We posted an annoucement that we were going to give the upgrade away for free to users that already own Flanker 2.0. That's still going to happen. Show me the hype! You actually want publishers and developers to never share information about products? Really, like no screenshots?

Do any of you really believe it would be better for us to just work on the product and never mention anything? I'm sure you guys must be well suited for whatever occupation you are involved in, but I'm glad you are not calling the shots for software development, PR, and Marketing where I work.

Respectfully,
Carl



[This message has been edited by Combatsim_ssi (edited March 02, 2001).]

Last comment on this matter...its not like we bought a buggy sim that needs to ne patched...Flanker 2.0 works fine (and thats from a Voodoo 3 user). This is an upgrade. We were supposed to pay for it.

When SSI/Carl/Matt found out that they had lost their online distribution...they said, if we can't sell it than lets give it away for free. They shouldhave been able to sell it and make some money out of it (God knows that it will not be enough to compensate for the efforts). Now they have a chance to make a little (definetly less) money from their efforts. EB wants a little head start thats all. I am sure EB would prefer if SSI never gave the patch free and Carl and Matt said that they could not do that anymore as they made a promise they intended to keep.

Karl and Matt love sims and are dedicated sim to their products. If we had been delaing with suits they would have cancelled 2.5 as soon as they realized they could not sell it. They will give it to use for free...it will cost them to allow us to download. Were lucky it was Carl, Matt and the SSI team who we were dealing with here.

Cut them some slack guys. They Patched Flanker 2.0 until it was finished (kind of unique these days). They decided to give 2.5 away rather than kill it.

Lets just say...I am dissapointed because I was looking forward to it so much...but its just a month or so.. AND THANKS FOR THE FREEBIE.

I am now off to fly my bug free 2.03a...

------------------
dogfight.com

Jesus Carl , so we your customers the people who purchased f2 , and would have purchased 2.5 - if it wasn't free are not allowed to feel pissed and disappointed because we have to wait another month !!!

Flip me !!!!

If you really feel that way - its a shame any of us gave you our cash and showed any interest in f2 in the first place ?

I have worked in the games industry , and my comments were also directed at pc games development in general - eg re typhoon , duke nuken forever / whenever / alien 4 pc / blade severance of darkness 4 years development etc - ridiculous !

As for screenshots - not sure how to take that other than to say - i don't carry yours or anyone elses screenshots - i take my own from my own purchased copy - i don't get any freebies from you or anyone else - i am independant - i can say what i want , display what i want - i choose to have a flanker 2 gallery at my site , because i like f2 - and as a customer and an end user -i have the democratic right to express my opinion .

Regardless of how good or free 2.5 will be in hindsight maybe you should have kept the details of the release date a secret until it was ready to be released to avoid all our disappointments and frustrations , then you would not be here acting like some kind of head master telling us all of , for expressing our disappointment !

Anyway to end on a civil note -

Flanker 2 is still a good product , which i enjoy despite my disappointment - roll on 2.5 release soon please !

Troff

Troff,

Let's just agree to disagree, ok? I think being "pissed off" is a bit strong for this situation. I objected to your suggestion that we should just "shut the **** up."

The screenshot reference was just to show you that I know who you are and what you specialize in. No malice intended.

My positive note: I've always enjoyed your site.

Let's move on.

Carl

I can't believe anyone is angry about this release schedule!

First of all, I think we should be glad they are giving those of us who have Flanker 2.0 a FREE 2.5 download. From what I've seen, it's more than a patch. They could have easily marketed it as Flanker 3.0 for $40 and said forget about everyone who bought 2.0. Does anyone remember Fly2K? That was billed as a sequel and was essentially a patched version of Fly! with some of the more popular user add-ons included.

Secondly and more importantly, we should be happy about anything that may add to our numbers. If 2.5 was a free download only, it would not attract as many new customers as a shiny new flight sim appearing on the shelves this year. This way, we can benefit from the new upgrade while SSI picks up a few bucks and a few new sim fans for their trouble.

We don't want our hobby to be an exclusive one- if companies can't make money from flight sims, we will see less and less of them.

Good Hunting.

Ok Carl , regards to you , agreed lets move on

Roll on 2.5 so we can all be happy bunnies , and i look forward to lock on !

- and if i must and to Typhoon as well - just hurry up Rage !

Lol



Troff

Stinger wrote:

"Zeke, I'm suprised to see you so upset. What's the problem? After this reaction I seriously doubt the community will be given any timelines whatsoever in the future, including details on features until they are set in stone"

GOOD! Don't tell people one thing and then do another. Gosh, that is simple. If you tell people one thing and then do a 180 on them a month later, you are going to make people angry. That's a fact! We lost a good guy in our squad because of this, and whether you think he's right or wrong doesn't matter, because he is a customer and you know what they say about that. Whether Carl believes it or not, public relations is very important. Losing one person becuase they feel they were lied too is one person to many in my opinion.

Carl Wrote:

"Louie, your suggestion that we never give out information would be a real popular move with the guys at the O'Club, I'm sure. Maybe we should just get rid of our website so that we don't give anyone the wrong idea and we'd never have to worry about changes or taking the opportunities that present themselves to us."

Carl, maybe you should just honor your/SSI's word:

"GAME Studios / SSI and The Fighter Collection are pleased to announce the scheduled release of the Flanker 2.5 upgrade. The upgrade to Flanker 2.0 will be provided free of charge. The upgrade will be available initially for download and we hope to distribute it by other means in the weeks to come."

And now:

"Although the V2.5 upgrade will be available for purchase with the boxed Flanker 2.0, we have every intention of making the upgrade available as a free download. The free download will not be made available until shortly after the Flanker 2.5/Flanker 2.0 bundle is on store shelves in late March. Thank you for your patience."

Now as I've said before, if you never released the first statement none of us would be angry. But, YOU DID. How can you read both of the above and then tell us we are wrong to feel the way we do? Please, do us a favor and tell us the truth when you KNOW it is the truth and there will be no problems. I want to see Flanker and Lock On kick ass in the market but when decisions like this are made it leaves others feeling the sim isn't for them and THAT effects me. If the series dies I'll be deeply upset. Please, just do what you say you are going to do, it's that simple. And when you do make a mistake, be humble and don't spin it back on the angry customers, you may not have enough at the end of the day.

Louie 'Zeke'



------------------

can of worms here.

I just think it is a bit disappointing to have to wait while we see it on the shelves... and other people who didn't support the sim earlier (ie by buying it) get the patch before those who did support it.

Just an unfortunate PR decision really, but some suit somewhere thinks it a good way to make a few extra bucks. Unfortunately it's this sort of thing that can turn a loyal supporter into a disgruntled customer.

Have patience peoples.

Does anyone remember a game called Swat 3?They released a FREE upgrade(Multiplayer) at the same time as the retail release.

I personally believe this is a good way for them to be compensated for their efforts on 2.5. Heck, if it delivers/adds what they say it will, then I just may go buy it again to show my support for their hard work and support.


--Softball

Well .... hmmmm, how do I say this tactfully ... guess I can't so here goes ...

I already have 2.5 ( http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/previews/flanker25/ )and I will be one of the first in the store to buy a copy as well. Even tho I have a cable modem and the 80 meg file would take about 10 minutes to download on a bad day, it is the support issue that I am looking at. $20 bucks to show SSI and their owners (who ever that may be http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/Forum33/HTML/000105.html ) that the community is willing to support these types of simulations. Personally even if they released it for download today, I would be buying it still as well. If the games sell, they will make more ... this is a business after all.

I can see the dissapointment that it is going to be delayed a bit, but this is one of the best free things I have ever seen. Can't say that I have ever really seen anything else anywhere that was free that was actally worth while ... well, except for this site of course.



------------------
Dan "CRASH" Crenshaw
President, SimHQ.com
crash@simhq.com
Author of "How to Live and Die in the Virtual Sky"
http://www.flightsimcentral.com/fsc/howtolivandd.html

We're talking about 30 days here.............

This isn't Christmas and we're not a bunch of kids who have been had by Santa Claus.

..Let these guys do their job and promote their product......

They delayed the release a little bit, they did not pull the offer back from anybody.
they have good reason and a legit opportunity here....

4 weeks............and everybody is happy.

...would you know it if it bit you??

Jim

When SSI announced that the 2.5 update was going to be free, everyone gushed with offers to donate money to the cause for the developers efforts. Well guess what? SSI has told us how we can do exactly that without even spending an extra dime. Instead of money, all they want is some patience and some time for them to move some inventory and maybe make some cash.

Methinks its time for some people out there to put their money (or time in this case) where their mouths are.

Louie,

You seem to think that we knew about the EB deal when we made the first posting; We did not. You also seem to think that we have no intention of actually making the V2.5 upgrade a free download; We will make it a free download.

If we never release a free V2.5 upgrade you may call me whatever you wish.

I'm willing to bet you a beer of your choice that the free upgrade will be available at the same time as the remastered Flanker boxes appear at EB. How about it? A bet?

Cheers,
Carl

P.S. I'll wager a Guinness.



[This message has been edited by Combatsim_ssi (edited March 03, 2001).]

Hi Zeke,

Where in the above statement do you see a definitive release date for 2.5? It says in the "weeks to come". That to me means in the future and nothing more.

How do you see what they are doing now as going against their word?

Do you feel that SSI should blow off the EB deal and the financial support for Lock On and future products just to keep the few people upset over this happy? Didn't think so.

I have been receiving free copies of Flanker since 1.5 and yet I still make an effort to go out and buy the sim anyway and I will also do so with the 2.5 bundle.

SSI needs our support in these brutal times for combat flight sims and 2.5 will still be free for those who do not wish to support them.

CRASH, Jim, and Spiff... good posts!

Cheers,

Stinger



[This message has been edited by Stinger (edited March 03, 2001).]

First off,

Stinger, did you read the whole annoucement on the F2 web site, the first one about 2.5 release? It said end of February. Ok. Hell I could care less when it comes out, but I see no reason to worry about SSI or Carl giving us information if it is going to change month to month. I can wait until the 'Real' info comes out. I don't need an info fix every week.

Carl, what does 'shortly after it hits the shelves' mean? Now you're telling us it will be availible at the same time? Great!

Guys, whether this thing is free or costs $100 doesn't mean a damn thing to me, I hope I've made my point about good and bad information and how it can cause distrust and anger among the followers. That's all I have to say on the matter.

Cheers,

Louie 'Zeke'


------------------

It will be available for download as soon as I am cleared to do it. I was told we could provide it as soon as it hits the shelves. I should probably be more cautious and state that it is not just up to me. If I have any say, it will be available the moment the boxes hit the shelves.

Again, when we posted the notice that stated the end of February, Matt and I had no knowledge of the EB deal and were confident that we would have the upgrade out before the end of February. Shame on us, but we reported what the current plan was at that time.

Carl

Vonmanstein-

I would bet the reason they don't want the patch released before the cd is that there are alot of die-hard flanker fans out there who would rather just buy the cd rather than take the trouble to download it. Instant gratification and all that. If the patch came out much before the CD, those same die-hard fans who are all a-twitter in anticipation would definitely download it now matter how many hours it took on their 56k modem and therefore not buy the CD. I am sure there are other reasons as well, but this is just at the top of my head.

Relax it's just game. It will come out soon. Even if it is delayed a month..that month will go by in no time. Meanwhile you get time to enjoy the sun and the great outdoors.

As for Typhoon, well when information about the game first starting appearing, Infogrames was suppose to publish the game. They sat on their hands and did nothing so the rights reverted back to Rage; causing the delay. Far from the debacle that you describe it as. Sometimes things happen that are beyond anyone's control.

Typhoon will be coming out in May. You can enjoy Flanker 2.5 while you wait. Heck give's me time to finish Baldur's Gate II.

Slappy:

I am buying the CD...since it is only being sold at EB it may take some time to get here so I may download it also.

The reason I am buying it is that I think SSI deserves some cash in return for their teams efforts.

Me I like my sims...and I would like to see new ones developed, not read more notices about closures.

------------------
dogfight.com

As i tried to comment on the F2 board last night (but got the error of doom instead!), the only defence to the rather vitriolic moaners is this: they are disappointed because they have to wait a little longer for a quality product.

But other than that, as I said, I'll probably buy two copies for the F2.0/2.5 combo. One for me, especially since my manual is in Ireland and I am in Canada, and one for my friend Don, who I have been trying to lure into sims for a long while.

And in closing...why is it such a big deal??
The free download is late. OK. That is a nuisance. We are all looking forward to it. But this means you can go and buy it in shops. You can tell your friends to go buy it in shops. SSI get some money, maybe even some profit, and hopefully drink and vacation money; the guys down at accounting think : oh-ho, this bodes well for Lock On, and everyone goes away happy.

Problems? I think not! Troff, I understand man. I know how it feels to wait. But SSI lucked out here, and I think we should trust them.

And do you know. When the 2.0/2.5 combo may be the time when you can look back, five years from now, and say: this is where the death of sims ended.

Gavin

All hail the Carl! Saviour of flight sims, bringer of light and other good stuff. Let us make burnt offerings before him!

As if his poor, fragile ego needs a boost.

Here, throw my Flanker CD on the fire, I'm outta here.

*Phage walks to the graven image which looks oddly like the south end of a horse going north. He suddenly notices a better place for his CD.

Well, this has got to be a new all time low in the world of flight sims.

Someone is giving away a game for free and people are bitching about it.... give me a break.

If you people had ANY class whatsoever you would go out and buy the game again just to show your SUPPORT.

Instead you throw a fit and look like a bunch of asses.....unbelievable.

I didn't deserve or ask for that. Bye now.

Carl

If you don't mind me asking, what would you have them do?

At a time when the flight sim market is producing ever thinner profits, and with a warehouse of Flanker 2.0 packs that cost the company money to make and then store, EB says that they'll put the product out on shelves again, with the addon. SSI gets rid of it's warehoused Flanker discs, *and* gets some cash money for them and the game gets another outing in the stores, to raise it's profile & hopefully get more people interested in it.

The only condition EB put on this is that the downloadable version doesn't go out before their add on pack.

What do you do? Turn down the money and the publicity?

In all seriousness, what would you have said to EB? What would you have said to your bosses when they heard you'd turned down the offer because people downloading the addon (who, in the eyes of management, aren't contributing to the bottom line) would have had to wait thirty days to get it?


------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

Oh. My mistake. Sorry then. It was a feeble attempt at keeping the adulation to a reasonable level. Bye.

Huh?

Adulation?
My definition of adulation is obviously not yours then.
Carl AND HIS TEAM are making a quality product. Using this quality product makes me happy and entertains me when i am bored. I get to watch cool dogfights, look at cool scenery and play around with a cool plane flight model. It's fun. Its about to become more fun.

I do not adore Carl and his TEAM. But i do respect them, and I do appreciate their work. That's all.

And believe me, this is it. Flanker and Typhoon are the only fast jet sims in development right now. Typhoon is having publishing problems. Flanker and its sequels are pretty much the whole story right now.

The future of this flight simming hobby as a commercial enterprise turns on Flanker right now. If Flanker/Lock On does well, we may see more sims in the future. If it does not, well, we probably won't. Not for a long time.

Understandably, as someone who likes sims... supporting Carl and his team's efforts is a good thing.

Not adulation. Respect. Appreciation. Not adulation. Carl can accept criticism. Criticism. Of the constructive sort. He takes this abuse from people. But still he answers questions and listens to concerns.

Again, appreciation of this service. Not adulation. Carl is just some guy (probably a scary one up close..., but just some guy). He and his team make a computer game.

A computer game. One that takes up large amounts of my time. But only a game. I play F/A-18 and EECH and Falcon 4 more. But I still play Flanker 2. and enjoy it.

That's all.

Gavin

I thought you were leaving.

Carl

I am. Just an apology.

I have just got to jump back in here , because this has got well out of hand !

Firstly - I think it was good Carl came to this thread to listen to the gripes , not many developers would do that , he does not deserve abuse or flaming when rational arguments / discussion are the order of the day .

My initial post - was a knee jerk reation of diapointment re the 2.5 patch being delayed !

My reference to developers oh please do be quiet was not aimed at SSI , Carl , Matt etc per say , it was a general comment to developers - made by me in a dark mood of frustration - and i don't detract it - but i feel i should clarify it as follows

Firstly the simulation community are end users and customers - in this case we have all purchased copies of original boxed Flanker 2 - we don't all have to suck up to sim developers just because there are not many of them left !

Note this relates to any games company - we the customer pays the money for the product , so we have the right to criticise it , we have the right to expect bug free usage , and we have the right to complain if game play features are missing - again not directed at Flanker 2 per say !

Games companies take in general take far too long to develop games , and of course they have to fund salaries , and work to a rigorous game design document !

Everybody keeps saying , games are made for money if they don't sell - the companies fold etc etc - too true - the same rules apply to your local supermarket , so what !

Many web sites ,mine included try to raise peoples interest to buy sims - but at the end of the day you cannot force people to buy the original F2 , if sales are / were poor why ?? i paid for my copy , i am not buying 2 copies just for the hell of it !

Maybe the reason f2 did not sell well original lies in the rational of the product itself , the missing game play features perhaps !
Even 2.5 will not make F2 as alive as f4 , eg still a lack of ground war / moving vehicles etc !

I am not saying any of this to be nasty to F2 , i like it , i paid for it , i want 2.5 , but fact is fact !

Re hype - my point was this - of course gamers want to know that a game is in development - i will use lock on as an example , lock on , of course is already being hyped - specs have been released to web sites re the probable feature list , this is great , but i personally would prefer a news black out hence forth ,on any product until Carl and co , have it done , finished , and wrapped in a box in the warehouse !

Yes issue the odd press release to say yes its progressing nicely, but treat games and sims in particular like the development of say a stealth plane !

This what i think is best , it avoids pissing off and alienating a potential customer base , because if you don't over promise / promise something , people won't hold the developer to account when a deadline is missed !

I could quote loads of examples of pc games of all genres this applies too a few follow -

Duke Nukem forever , daikatana , prey , alien 4 , typhoon ,

my final comment is , if you guys want to buy 2 copies fine , buy 2 , i won't !
I will download 2.5 if is free , or pay for it , if it were a chargeable upgrade !

But at the end of the day , SSI , flanker 2 , whoever, - sinks or swims , based on their products , and if people buy their products !!

I hope they survive , and i wish all sim developers good luck and bon voyage in making their products , hell i am even goNna buy Typhoon for flips sake, and Lock On , and many morer , because sims are my hobby , and a big part of my life , but i refuse to be sucked into this cycle of doom and gloom , and oh we must buy 2 copies , and we must support all companies because sims will die !

Its all Horse shit !! sims will die if the suits decide , because they can't sell the boxes on the shelves of game stores , you can't force people to buy sims , and the quality of any simming product defines its fate !

Hell the amount of sims i own , and the money i have paid out alone should be keeping the simming bizness afloat !

My final comment is , i have never not seen Flanker 2 on the shelves ,in my local EB - hemel hempstead , herts , uk - retails at £20 , its always there !

Troff :-0

Hiya Troff.

I am buying two copies, cos i want to ;-). I want one for a friend, who is unlikely to buy it, and one for myself, cos my manual is 3420 miles away.

But I have to agree with you on many points, saying: buy sims is preaching to the choir here. Most of simhq's readership will buy Lock on and Typhoon. Lots will whine and moan, but eventually, they'll all buy it. That means... well not a lot of copies purchased.

I hope Lock On and Typhoon, and indeed the 2.0/2.5 combo sells. I hope lots of casual buyers walk into their local EB and say: hey! that looks cool! and buy it.

And then they can come on here, and we have someone else to fight with. Both online and on these boards ;-)

Gavin

True, although one shouldn't categorise people who can see where the developers are coming from as "sucking up"


If by "too long" you mean they go past deadlines, that is true of some. In the case of the 2.5 patch, judging by Carl's post on the Flanker 2 forum at least, the delay here isn't due to coding issues, as is normally the case, but an unexpected piece of good fortune for the publisher & development team.

I'd argue that it's germane to this discussion because of the reason for the delay, i.e. an unexpected chance for the publisher/developer to make some money from something that otherwise would have been a loss (in monetary terms) to them.

I won't be either - one baby & another one the way being the principle reasons. If people with more spare cash than me want to get another copy, fair enough. Given that the free to download update should appear at the same time as the shelf copy, I'll be waiting no longer than the people that are shelling out for the 2.5 retail pack.


Possibly - the joy of Flanker for me is in it's flight model - maybe that, and other factors mean that it doesn't appeal to enough people. However, perhaps those that read favourable reviews first time round, but were put off by a full price game, might be tempted by an improved Flanker 2 at a knock down price.


If Carl & co. can get that past their publisher's marketing people, they're better men than we

Re: Pissing off etc - the team gave the Feb/March dates in good faith, based on how the project was progressing, and doubtless in response to calls for the info from the community. As Carl has remarked, the EB deal wasn't on the radar when the dates were given. Out of the blue, EB turn up and offer, in effect, to give the team scads of cash, on condition that the free download doesn't go out until the retail pack is one shelves. The community is informed of the delay as soon as the dev team have the EB deal in the bag, and the dev team promise to work on extra content for the release during the month we "have" to wait. I want to fly that MiG as badly as anyone - and I seriously want evadable missiles - but given the above, I don't find myself pissed off or alienated that I'm going another 30 days without them. And this is despite the fact that my internet connection will go pay per minute instead of flat rate around the time of the release...

EB's shifting the inventory of Flanker 2.0 CDs (to make up th 2.5 bundle) will help SSI's bottom line in this particular case though.

I guess Manchester has more fans of Russian aircraft... I couldn't find a copy for love nor money up here recently


------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

[This message has been edited by wildstyle24_7 (edited March 03, 2001).]

Just think i need to clarify my sucking up to developers comment !

I do not mean , that any of you guys who disagree with my opinions are sucking up , hey in democracy i will fight for your counter opinion - hope that clarifies

What i meant was Carl , or any other developer for that matter can't expect an easy ride , just because he comes into a forum , or because he represents a sim developer - and sim developers are disappearing !

He must accept our opinions negative or positive ,in the same way as we must accept and respect his statemants about the free 2.5 patch and download , its a 2 way street !

Troff

Troff,

First, and don't take this the wrong way...providing an upgrade, free or for sale, is not an obligation we have to anyone.

Second, if you think going on these forums is to make my life easier... I have to laugh...you really do not understand. I'm not looking for glory or, despite what some have said, an ego trip; I go online because I feel strongly about my product and want to do what I can to promote it while being a contributing member of the combat flight sim community. The easy way would be to not be reading and posting to these forums on the weekend.

I appreciate your point of view, but I can not agree with everything you state. As for providing specs and detailed information concerning Lock On, all we have provided is the name of the product and what user flyable aircraft are being provided.

I strongly believe that guys like you that have the impression that we are putting out too much hype just don't realize the 99% of the hype is speculation and commentary by the users online, not by the publisher. Go back and read what we've posted about Lock On and show me where we provided specs.

Respectfully,
Carl

Carl , this seems a bit lame to me to be nit picking over what is hype / pr - call it what you like !

Re lock on - you have provided specs - in the form you have stated flyable planes etc -thats fine by me - if you follow my line about not hyping - this info should be sufficient to tide everyone over , until its released , web sites, journos etc !

By stating what planes are flyable - you have committed to these in a form - becoz u have presented to your customer base a spec -

oh my god just think you will be flamed big time - IF one or more of these flyable planes does not appear , you may have made a rod for your own back !!

This is exactly my point - all i want to know is - you are working on lock on cool - basically it has flyable planes x y z - cool that is sufficient - for my purposes !

All i want now - is for you to make it and release it - don't say when - unvail it when it is done finished - is that so hard to understand !

This way i won't put the release date into my diary , i won't save / ear mark my english pounds to buy it at the projected date !
Release it and hype / pr it when its done and finished - surprise us !

Regards

Troff

Well OK, I must admit I agree with a lot of points here, especially Troff's.

Speaking for myself.. after reading the statements issued, I fully expected the free patch/upgrade on the time date that was mentioned, I'm disappointed this has all been changed but recognise it will still be free, and I will have to wait longer than I thought.. no big deal I guess.

Carl has got an attitude problem though, and it's not the first time I have noticed it.
It's great to see sim developer reps on here but they shouldn't be treated like Gods, neither should they grovel of course. Representing your company to the public takes a particular talent as I'm learning in my new job, I do know if I had made a certain post Carl had made in this thread I would be in trouble.

Whatever, I'm fairly new to Flanker and eagerly await the download, even 80 mb is not a problem on my 56k dial up, so long as the servers providing support resume, I think the largest file I've downloaded on my connection is 120MB for a game demo..it can be done.

MD

Ah, much, ta.

Well, my own experience, on these web boards & usenet is that who a poster is can count for a fair bit. If you follow a newsgroup for a while, you get to know the people posting - the ones that are usually right, or that consistently make you laugh, whatever, you give an easier ride, by and large. It's part of a kind of history, through which you filter your interpretation of what they post.

Now I take your point that someone being a developer isn't in and of itself reason to drop your argument, but I'd argue that dependant on who that developer is, that whole history thing comes into it. For me, guys that take the trouble to post to this kind of forum, that try to be active parts of the community, that argue *our* case to their managers (cf. getting the publishers to agree to a free download of 2.5 for exisiting Flanker owners) build up a good deal of positive "history".

What that means for me is that posts from people like Carl are read with that history in mind - and answered with it in mind too. I understand that people are disagreeing with Carl/SSI (although, as I've remarked before, I don't share their views)- I just wish;

a) they'd look at what Carl and the team've done for the community already, and be a bit more civil about it.

b) at least attempt to see Carl & the team's point of view on this. Not directed at you Troff, but I've seen far too many people posting to the effect of "Waah, this sucks and you guys suck" - no constructive opinion at all (how they'd have dealt with the EB deal, how they'd have explained to their managers that they'd blown off the EB deal so as to not upset people that (in the eyes of management) aren't contributing to the bottom line).

Well, I'd agree about accepting reasoned opinions, and presenting a counter argument, but where people just post to the effect of "yuo = SUCK", in Carl's position I'd refuse to accept that



------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

Troff,

We'll just have to disagree about how a product is promoted and marketed.

I respect your opinions, but I just don't agree with them all.

I just flew the latest version of Lock On this morning. So far, I have flown the Su-27. Su-33, Su-39, MiG-29K, A-10, and finally, this morning, the F-15C. The only plane I have not personally flown is the MiG-29 Fulcrum C. We're pretty confident that all of these planes will be flyable in Lock On because they already are flyable. Not hype, just facts.

By the way, the F-15C is very nice. (An opinion)

Cheers,
Carl

[This message has been edited by Combatsim_ssi (edited March 03, 2001).]

On the site itself, it says that these are the aircraft that are "currently planned" - it may be splitting hairs somewhat, but it doesn't say "these are the aircraft you'll get". In every post on the F2 forum, I've seen, the dev team post a disclaimer saying that things could change over the course of the project.

Which is fine for you, but will irritate people that want more info - it'll probably drive the marketing people crazy too. If I can handle the fact that release dates sometimes slip, and read the disclaimers on the progress reports, why should I get less info because others can't?

I'd beg to differ - I may be missing something, but in the face of the provocation, I've not seen anything I'd think out of line, on here or the F2 forum. As ever, YMMV. Carl's post on the F2 forum ("More thoughts from...") was probably instrumental in clearing up a lot of the misunderstanding about what's actually happening - I certainly found it helpful.

BTW, reaction in the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim newsgroup (a tough crowd at the best of times) is overwhelmingly positive so far - check Message ID <97ouh9$1ed4$1@news6.isdnet.net> et seq.
------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

[This message has been edited by wildstyle24_7 (edited March 03, 2001).]

I'd beg to differ - I may be missing something, but in the face of the provocation, I've not seen anything I'd think out of line, on here or the F2 forum.

----

Well that's just tickety boo. I've nothing against Carl or SSI or indeed Flanker, I really enjoy the simulation.

Perhaps he has been provoked at times?
All I'm saying is... the company I represent are far more successful than the company he represents, I know I would be in trouble if I said some of his comments to the consumer.

Lets leave it at that.

MD

Well really all this has come full circle , because regardless of whether feature x or y is in lock on , or whether they are set in stone or not , it boils down to this -

Developers use web sites , pr , journos etc to sell their envisioned game to hopefully an eagerly awaiting market - so i know its unrealistic to expect a news blackout - i was being a little provocative and devils advocatish in stating / expecting this !

So this brings us back nicely back to 2.5 patch , with no malice intended , SSI need too at least appreciate , that they made a mistake in promising / indicating to the f2 community that the patch download would be taking place about now !

Face it you made a mistake , for all the right wrong / reasons - money Eb - whatever !

because you sowed a seed in your customers minds , a seed of a release date / download date , that people have used against you in voicing their disapointment at the extra month wait for the patch !

You cannot deny that your customers HAD pencilled into their diaries and consciuosnesses this approximate time - that they would be downloading the patch !

To conclude my input into this thread , i am gonna say - i can forgive you , i wish you well on any sim , lock on etc - and i will probably buy whatever in the future , because the products are good !!!!

You have made a mistake , an error of judgement - its not a war crime - i am gonna move on - get a life for the rest of the weekend and do some flying , and produce some future site content !

I hope that all of us here can see the others point of view and the other side of the fence / argument ?

I wish Carl, Matt , SSI , F2 & Lock On - all my sincerest best - and hope to be able to download the 2.5 patch in 30 days time !

Sincerely to all

Troffmeister :-)

Troffmeister's Simulation Zone
http://www.daviesr.freeserve.co.uk

Roger " Troffmeister " Davies
Roger@Daviesr.freeserve.co.uk

Troffie:

"So this brings us back nicely back to 2.5 patch , with no malice intended , SSI need too at least appreciate , that they made a mistake in promising / indicating to the f2 community that the patch download would be taking place about now."

As they have already said...they did not know of the EB deal when they gave the info...you can't expect them to pass up on the EB deal. They have two groups of people to protect...the customers and their own team members. They need to pay salaries to their team.

I am sure EB would prefer that SSI not release a free 2.5 add-on (its not a patch). SSI could have done that...

THANKS CARL AND MATT FOR KEEPING IT FREE.

You should have never said anything about it...than you would not have to give it away free and no one would be complaining, and instead we would be posting oh how reasonable $2o is (ral being sarcastic...by the way $20 is very reasonable).

------------------
dogfight.com

I noticed that as well. I would have thought the reverse with the Usenet newsgroup full of flames. Instead, it is very positive. This community is totally unpredictable.

Thanks for your other points.

Cheers,
Carl

Well, I feel the need to jump into this thread again, usenet for the hardcore flight simmer has long been dropped IMHO, sure you still see some of the regulars there, but I've found the flight sim newsgroup is reserved for news group celebrities whose names I wont mention just now, however some of those self elected celebrities cant or wont look forward, consequently quite a lot of the simulation community (along with yourself Carl) have migrated to places like this, if you don't like the negative responses you see hear please don't try to blame the non usenet community for this, Speaking for myself I got fed up of the unmoderated Flight Sim usenet postings some time ago, and switched to boards like this some time ago.

The Flight Sim Newsgroup has been used to guess and calculate the genre before, and more than one flight sim company has fallen by putting the results into practise.

The real Simulation enthusiasts are here, and you should listen to them.

MD

Mad Dog,

I don't blame anyone. I read the Usenet group just about everyday. I do not and will not participate there because it has become too unreasonable. I'e rather spend my time on the Flanker Forum, Combatsim.com, Dogfighter, or here on SimHQ. The overall online combat flight sim community is not the entire population of combat flight sim users out there, they are just the more vocal and hardcore crowd.

While there are many outstanding individuals in our online community, there are also many unfriendly and disruptive folks who do not help our hobby. You'll find that this situation exists in just about any online community.

I sometimes pity the new user who first comes online looking for assistance and is bushwacked by someone who feels he has to be a badass. It happens too often.

We at SSI try to listen, but sometimes the signal to noise ratio can be difficult.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions. I am not talking about anyone specific in this posting.

Cheers,
Carl

Thanks Carl, you've been reasonable, I'm looking forward to my download.

MD

Damn, I knew I wasn't hardcore. Or am I gifted honourary status because I post to web boards too?

I think I know who you mean. To me, that's just usenet - every group has it's big dogs, and the tenor of the group is influenced to a fair degree by them, although your newsreader software can help you fine tune the ambience of the group to your own taste. I treat the flight sim ng like I treat any other - I read the threads I'm interested in, set to ignore the ones that annoy, and post where I can help or I feel strongly about the topic.

I've picked up good tips for making my sims run better, hopefully helped a few folks out with EAW mods, and recieved some useful pointers to some great sims and mods from other posters.

With regard to this specific topic, it appears to me that the flight sim group are more in tune with the financial realities of the decision SSI has taken than the folks decrying the 30 day wait. As ever, YMMV.

I try to be pretty straightforward in my posts - if I was apportioning blame to anyone, I'd say so upfront. Please don't attribute something to me that I have not said.

The comment I made about reaction in the flight sim ng is simply that; a kind of "Go figure" aside, if you will.

As for "liking" the reaction here... I think that's neither here nor there. I think the anger directed towards SSI is unwarranted, and I'm arguing that point.

It's crossed my mind a couple of times - mostly when the group becomes infested with political threads, still, that's why you can set them to ignore... I find both sources useful though - I prefer usenet largely because I can control what I see far more, with the help of a good newsreader. On my connection, usenet is also a far easier way to debate than a web board.

Again, I'm not suggesting that anyone use the flight sim ng as a barometer of popular taste, anymore than I'd suggest this board or any other *singular* source for such a purpose.

Sigh. This reminds me to a scary degree of my mis-spent youth - endless arguments about who was "more punk" usually based on where they hung out, or the shoes they wore.



------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

I don't know where to start wildstyle24_7?, you've dissected my post in true Usenet fashion.

I'm not here for an argument, if I were I'd have went to the Monty Python argument shop and paid for it.

You don't like my opinion, that's fair enough. I've discussed my gripes with Carl on here and I'm cool about this.

Chill out dude.

MD

Given what you said about usenet, I'm guessing that's not good If you're referring to the quote by quote style, I'm afraid I do that everywhere - I find it easier to organise my thoughts posting that way, and old habits die hard

I'm not looking to provoke you, make you cross, get you to post pointless flames, or anything of the sort - I disagreed with what you said about the flight sim group, and wanted to say why. I thought that you misinterpreted why I'd made the point about their reaction, and felt I should set the record straight.

The "hardcore" comment and my punk anecdote at the bottom are just intended to lighten the tone a little, and point up the (to me) absurdity of saying that one group of enthusiasts is more worthy of attention (solely) by virtue of where they post their comments.

It's not that I don't like it, I just disagree with it. If I've given the impression that I'm cross, or spoiling for a fight, that's absolutely not my intention; there are no hard feelings here.


------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

I don't see what the problem is. A month long wait for an upgrade that is free? Hum.........

Aaargh. No fair! I want to fly the f-15c not to mention the other planes you mentioned Carl. Gimme gimme gimme gimme.

This thread is getting as bad as some on the Flanker homepage. "By the way, I bought some milk last week which went sour even though it was in the refrigerator, can I claim a refund from SSI because I did buy Flanker 18 months ago for $ 50 and demand a lifetime guarantee for everything and anything that ever happens to me, my family, friends and alien colleagues?"

Nope, didn't think so........



------------------
Rabina
Push Victor 11, go..

DanW is right.

Considering the sales generated by an upgrade to an existing flight sim, versus the income produced by a new game like Mech Warrior 4 (or whatever), we are LUCKY any of our favorite developers spend time and money fixing bugs and releasing upgrades!

Can't you guys see that? It's about money.

You don't need a marketing degree for this folks. I work in a small business. If we try a new product and it sits on the shelf collecting dust, we don't reorder it. If it sells out in a wekk, we'll double the order next time. If a product doesn't sell, you kill it. If it sells a lot, you make more of it.

After seeing the great Jane's brand call it quits for flight sims and even "soft sim" makers like Novalogic canceling new flight titles like Commanche 4, we better jump for joy and open our wallets whenever a good sim maker talks about new and better combat flight sims.

I'm not saying we should praise crappy, buggy products; if a sim is good, it's good and if it sucks, it sucks. But we can't throw a tantrum when we have to wait a few weeks for a FREE upgrade.

Good Hunting.

If I've given the impression that I'm cross, or spoiling for a fight, that's absolutely not my intention; there are no hard feelings here.

-------------------

Like-wise, No hard feelings here either

MD



[This message has been edited by Mad Dog (edited March 06, 2001).]