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Anti-Radiation missiles

Posted By: Mdore

Anti-Radiation missiles - 05/09/13 07:42 AM

Footage of AGM-45 Shrike, AGM-122 Sidearm and AGM-88 HARM anti-radiation missiles during testing. Plus some ejection seat testing at the end.

That's what happens when you keep your radar on too long.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 05/09/13 05:40 PM

Great thumbsup
That HARM miss looks great in slow motion, when it barely touched the van.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 06/11/13 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Great thumbsup
That HARM miss looks great in slow motion, when it barely touched the van.


Hm, "Shrike"-s performs better at this video, IMHO...
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/07/13 11:25 AM

First russian "Wild Bear Weasel".. :

Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/03/13 06:55 AM

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/03/13 02:22 PM

ColdWar WarPact solution against Hawk&Nike...





Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/04/13 05:30 AM

Some data about older "Shrike" and "Standart" ARM:
(Hope this may be useful in case of future "realistic to the switch" SAM Sim tunning...)

"Shrike" - RCS in sa-2E frequency - 0.05-0.07 sq. m. / Aquisition range 43 km (narrow beam); 32 km (wide beam)
"Standart" - RCS in sa-2E frequency - 0.20-0.40 sq. m. / Aquisition range 64 km (narrow beam); 45 km (wide beam)...

"Shrike" - RCS in P-12 frequency - 0.70-1.00 sq. m.
"Standart" - RCS in P-12 frequency - 3.50-4.50 sq. m.

Aquisition range for "Shrike" with certain posibility for aquisition (0.5;0.84;0.98) for one scanning:

Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 11/21/13 10:36 PM

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/docs/ntsp-Agm-88-harm.pdf
http://www.harpoondatabases.com/encyclopedia/Entry3131.aspx
http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb_09.html#m4
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 11/28/13 07:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
ColdWar WarPact solution against Hawk&Nike...

Click to reveal..






Still russian army hasn't dedicated "Wild Weasel" plane...
Posted By: Mdore

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 04/14/14 08:42 AM

Ugh http://www.janes.com/article/32800/uk-retires-alarm-missile

No naval fighters any more, no medium or heavy SAMs any more, half of tanks retired and now no Anti-Radiation missiles.

UK military has lost so many capabilities.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 04/14/14 05:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Mdore


UK military has lost so many capabilities.


As we all know, ARM-s are just really expensive RPK switches wink no need of worry...

Quote:
It added: "UK armed forces have a range of capabilities that can be used to counter enemy air defence, including kinetic strikes via long-range cruise missiles, such as Tomahawk and Storm Shadow, and a multitude of highly effective precision air-to-ground weapons.

"Additionally, it is likely that we will work with our international partners on future major operations overseas and will therefore manage all of our capabilities as part of that coalition."
Posted By: Mdore

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 05/09/14 10:31 AM

Over the years I've played SAMSim, I've discovered you can shoot down anti-radiation missiles, if you're quick enough.

I was just shooting down AGM-88s and wondered if this was realistic?

Are the fuses in the SAM warheads quick enough? Depending on which SAM you're using, your missile's speed + the speed of the ARM is going to be mach 3 to mach 4.

A slight delay when fired against a 15m-20m long aircraft doesn't matter, and might even be a good thing, causing the missile to detonate near the middle of the aircraft instead of in front of the aircraft's nose.

But an AGM-88 is just 4m long.

Wouldn't the combination of being a weak target for the fuse to detect, plus the extreme combined speed, plus the target is very short, make the warhead detonate behind the missile?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 05/09/14 01:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Mdore
Over the years I've played SAMSim, I've discovered you can shoot down anti-radiation missiles, if you're quick enough.

I was just shooting down AGM-88s and wondered if this was realistic?

Are the fuses in the SAM warheads quick enough? Depending on which SAM you're using, your missile's speed + the speed of the ARM is going to be mach 3 to mach 4.

A slight delay when fired against a 15m-20m long aircraft doesn't matter, and might even be a good thing, causing the missile to detonate near the middle of the aircraft instead of in front of the aircraft's nose.

But an AGM-88 is just 4m long.

Wouldn't the combination of being a weak target for the fuse to detect, plus the extreme combined speed, plus the target is very short, make the warhead detonate behind the missile?


HARM has double of the length, compared to the RS-2US missile acting as firing range target in Ustka.

What is more interesting...
...with the S-300PS system the recommendation is to engage the HARM, instead switching off the 18 channel emitter.

You have a specific target acquisition button for this function.
Posted By: Vulture

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 05/10/14 08:49 AM

Hpasp, damn man... That makes me want the S-300 so bad, even if it is not realistic to the switch.
Posted By: GrayGhost

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 06/13/14 01:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
HARM has double of the length, compared to the RS-2US missile acting as firing range target in Ustka.


Yes, but the HARMs are presenting minimum-ish cross section to seeker and fuze when launched at a SAM. I also suspect the test shots may carry a radar reflector, at least where old systems are involved.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
What is more interesting...
...with the S-300PS system the recommendation is to engage the HARM, instead switching off the 18 channel emitter.


So can PATRIOT, and could do this in GF1. It took hours and hours to verify this information, it came from the investigation of the friendly fire incidents. It also contained information regarding PATRIOT ABM performance.

Later, a PATRIOT got nailed with a HARM because it sang the wrong tune at an F-16.

All in all, I'm not sure that shooting ARMs is a high value proposition, though it's better than sitting there and taking it.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 06/14/14 12:35 PM

Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
HARM has double of the length, compared to the RS-2US missile acting as firing range target in Ustka.


Yes, but the HARMs are presenting minimum-ish cross section to seeker and fuze when launched at a SAM. I also suspect the test shots may carry a radar reflector, at least where old systems are involved.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
What is more interesting...
...with the S-300PS system the recommendation is to engage the HARM, instead switching off the 18 channel emitter.


So can PATRIOT, and could do this in GF1. It took hours and hours to verify this information, it came from the investigation of the friendly fire incidents. It also contained information regarding PATRIOT ABM performance.

Later, a PATRIOT got nailed with a HARM because it sang the wrong tune at an F-16.

All in all, I'm not sure that shooting ARMs is a high value proposition, though it's better than sitting there and taking it.


Correct.
S-300PS and Patriot (surprise-surprise) has capabilities to detect, and based on crew decision engage or take ARM (Anti Radiation Missile) attacks...
... facing AGM-88E AARGM I would certainly opt for engage.
biggrin

At a Patriot post, you as FCO sits at a relatively safety from the antenna (like SA-2/3/5), while the SA-4/6/8/10 crew sits at a life threatening distance from the ARM impact point.

PS: At an advanced arena (like OAF), decoys could play their part also...
Posted By: GrayGhost

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 06/14/14 05:25 PM

Radar decoys?

But what about TALD ... smile

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
PS: At an advanced arena (like OAF), decoys could play their part also...
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 06/14/14 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Radar decoys?

But what about TALD ... smile



This is for what he talk about..., and some others too ...



Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 06/14/14 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Radar decoys?

But what about TALD ... smile

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
PS: At an advanced arena (like OAF), decoys could play their part also...


Meaning HARM traps like...





... as far as I know, TALD was only used during ODS.
(not used in EDC, or in OAF)
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/10/14 06:59 PM

Damn, poor ST-68/36D6.... sigh

Posted By: Cold_Gambler

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/11/14 03:21 PM

Is there any truth to the story that the Serbs used tampered microwave ovens to spoof NATO anti-radiation missiles?

Sorry if that's a total noob question...

Just did a google, and this guy pretty much destroys the plausibility of it being effective, at least the counter arguments seem convincing to a lay-man like me... counter-arguments.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/11/14 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Cold_Gambler
Is there any truth to the story that the Serbs used tampered microwave ovens to spoof NATO anti-radiation missiles?

Sorry if that's a total noob question...


Just compare the microwave power output (~1kW) to a Neva SNR (~200kW).
Posted By: GrayGhost

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/11/14 05:58 PM

I believe they used bona-fide purpose-made decoys instead, like the photos that Hpasp posted smile
Posted By: Lonewolf357

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/11/14 06:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Cold_Gambler
Is there any truth to the story that the Serbs used tampered microwave ovens to spoof NATO anti-radiation missiles?

Sorry if that's a total noob question...

Just did a google, and this guy pretty much destroys the plausibility of it being effective, at least the counter arguments seem convincing to a lay-man like me... counter-arguments.


I just couldn't hold myself from posting this... biggrin Zoltan Dani with microwave:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=arbyw7dZZRU#t=590

It appears that Serbs invented this myth themselves... For some kind of purpose



Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/11/14 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357


I just couldn't hold myself from posting this... biggrin Zoltan Dani with microwave:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=arbyw7dZZRU#t=590

It appears that Serbs invented this myth themselves... For some kind of purpose




Yep! In later interviews Colonel Dani told that this was a "marketing trick" (as the so called "special" radar modification) in the information war....
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/11/14 07:34 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Damn, poor ST-68/36D6.... sigh



Quite a miss.
IMHO the ST-68 is still operable after this hit, with reduced effectiveness...
... just like this one.
(Note the shrapnel marks)
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/11/14 07:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Quite a miss.
IMHO the ST-68 is still operable after this hit, with reduced effectiveness...



Man, it was without warhead.... rolleyes

Here real one against same target:




Posted By: Cold_Gambler

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/11/14 07:37 PM

Ah! Thanks very much for confirming that it was just propaganda.

I can't see YouTube at work but the Wikipedia entry on Dani is quite interesting.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/11/14 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Quite a miss.
IMHO the ST-68 is still operable after this hit, with reduced effectiveness...



Man, it was without warhead.... rolleyes

Here real one against same target:

Click to reveal..





Guessed so...
... they also fixed its direction towards the launcher, to make HARM life easier.
biggrin
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/11/14 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Guessed so...
... they also fixed its direction towards the launcher, to make HARM life easier.
biggrin


It is not clear what they where testing with this particular launch (total of 12 where commenced), but it has a lot of sub system to be tested...

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ita...wn-there-01852/

Quote:
AARGM Block 0. Initial fielded variant. Incorporates a detalink, and GPS point-to-point weapon navigation so it can be directed toward known and last-seen targets. On top of that, its multi-sensor system includes passive digital Anti-Radiation Homing with an increased field of view and increased detection range, counter shutdown algorithms that remember where radars were, active Millimeter Wave radar guidance for final attack, and a Weapon Impact Assessment transmitter datalink that sends information back at appropriate times.

AARGM Block 1. Full combat capability. Corrects a number of classified deficiencies, and adds a netted targeting real-time feed via Integrated Broadcast System (IBS) prior to missile launch. The IBS Receiver interfaces lets the system receive national intelligence data directly.
Posted By: scrim

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/15/14 09:25 PM

Got a question about ARMs in SAM sim. I don't know about the Shrikes in the Linebacker scenarios, but HARMs pop up slightly after they're fired, so shouldn't they leave the FoV on the targeting radar when they're launched at you in SAM sim?
Posted By: apelles

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/26/14 12:53 PM

Hi! Anybody has some information what's the real capabilities of the ALARM missile against like SA-10?

The parachute mode, and the not too impressive max range not really answer the hype of the Alarm. Or?
Posted By: apelles

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/26/14 01:09 PM

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/BaE_Systems_ALARM
Posted By: GrayGhost

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/26/14 02:02 PM

HARMs have some form of inertial guidance capability, as well as a ridiculously wide FoV last I checked (but not necessarily confirmed with good sources). The self-protect launch mode for the HARM even allows for shots against threats behind the 3-9 line, at least IIRC.

The pre-briefed mode allows you to launch the missile from quite far away, with a pre-programmed threat for it to go after - you're basically launching against a threat that might not be emitting yet from far away, and once that radar turns on, the HARM will go after it.

Originally Posted By: scrim
Got a question about ARMs in SAM sim. I don't know about the Shrikes in the Linebacker scenarios, but HARMs pop up slightly after they're fired, so shouldn't they leave the FoV on the targeting radar when they're launched at you in SAM sim?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/27/14 07:50 AM

Originally Posted By: apelles
Hi! Anybody has some information what's the real capabilities of the ALARM missile against like SA-10?

The parachute mode, and the not too impressive max range not really answer the hype of the Alarm. Or?


Based on what I knew about SA-10, it cannot see the object on chute....
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/27/14 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: apelles
Hi! Anybody has some information what's the real capabilities of the ALARM missile against like SA-10?

The parachute mode, and the not too impressive max range not really answer the hype of the Alarm. Or?


Based on what I knew about SA-10, it cannot see the object on chute....


Contrary to the Patriot, the S-300PMU battery has 3 radar sets.
- 36D6 (Tin Shield) could detect the ALARM in both modes
- 76N6 (Clam Shell) could detect the ALARM while it is approaching, could not detect it under the parachute
- 30N6 (Tomb Stone) could detect and engage the ALARM while it is approaching, could not detect it under the parachute


Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/27/14 11:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Contrary to the Patriot, the S-300PMU battery has 3 radar sets.
- 36D6 (Tin Shield) could detect the ALARM in both modes
- 76N6 (Clam Shell) could detect the ALARM while it is approaching, could not detect it under the parachute
- 30N6 (Tomb Stone) could detect and engage the ALARM while it is approaching, could not detect it under the parachute



yep
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/27/14 06:11 PM

30N6 is a CW radar? I am too lazy to search for it now....
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/27/14 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
30N6 is a CW radar? I am too lazy to search for it now....


yep! Imagine a lot of small "Vega"-s all together...(What a dream huh? biggrin
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/27/14 07:10 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
30N6 is a CW radar? I am too lazy to search for it now....


yep! Imagine a lot of small "Vega"-s all together...(What a dream huh? biggrin


nope

It is a digital phase modulation steered, pencil beam, impulse doppler radar, with an additional CW function.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/28/14 06:33 AM

piston: yes, it is a dream, I like especially the indicator which looks like six Vega indicators in one thumbsup

Hpasp: so why it is unable to see the "zero doppler" target? I would understand it when in full CW mode, but what about the others?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/28/14 08:49 AM

Similarly to all early digital radars, it can track just a few target.
You do not want to overload its precious little memory with false targets (ground reflection, cloud reflection, etc).

Imagine Volhov with a limitation of only 6 return can be drawn.

Solution is to use SDC always on, with doppler threshold speed is selected to be fairly high, to be on the safe side against of high speed wind blown clouds.



Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 09/28/14 01:33 PM

Thanks, now it is clear thumbsup
Posted By: ckfinite

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 10/01/14 03:15 PM

Would a modern radar, say the 92N6E or the AN/MPQ-65, be able to engage the ALARM under the parachute? If the limitation is based on memory, it seems like they should be able to.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 10/03/14 09:46 PM

We generally has no information on modern* SAM equipment.

* fielded after the Cold War ended
Posted By: GrayGhost

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 10/04/14 10:35 PM

If the ALARM is hanging on a chute waiting on the SAM to say hi, it's too late for the SAM.

Originally Posted By: ckfinite
Would a modern radar, say the 92N6E or the AN/MPQ-65, be able to engage the ALARM under the parachute? If the limitation is based on memory, it seems like they should be able to.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 10/05/14 05:50 AM

Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
If the ALARM is hanging on a chute waiting on the SAM to say hi, it's too late for the SAM.


Why so?
Posted By: GrayGhost

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 10/07/14 06:00 PM

Because the ALARM has already gotten itself into attack position. The real opportunity that you had to stop it was while it was on its way there. Once it's hanging on that chute, it's going to attack within a couple of seconds (detach from chute and guide to target), while you need probably 15-30 sec to detect, classify, realize it's not a spurious contact (that's assuming your radar is looking that high, and in a non-TBM application it may well not be), and attack - by which time that ALARM is probably already sitting in the Rmin for your system, if not blowing up one of your radars.

With SEAD/DEAD, timing is everything.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 10/07/14 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Because the ALARM has already gotten itself into attack position. The real opportunity that you had to stop it was while it was on its way there. Once it's hanging on that chute, it's going to attack within a couple of seconds (detach from chute and guide to target), while you need probably 15-30 sec to detect, classify, realize it's not a spurious contact (that's assuming your radar is looking that high, and in a non-TBM application it may well not be), and attack - by which time that ALARM is probably already sitting in the Rmin for your system, if not blowing up one of your radars.

With SEAD/DEAD, timing is everything.


All of this would be true if the SAM was alone on the field... ALARM in particular was withdrawn from service - a bit strange for such effective weapon... Maybe something goes wrong with this concept?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 10/07/14 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Because the ALARM has already gotten itself into attack position. The real opportunity that you had to stop it was while it was on its way there. Once it's hanging on that chute, it's going to attack within a couple of seconds (detach from chute and guide to target), while you need probably 15-30 sec to detect, classify, realize it's not a spurious contact (that's assuming your radar is looking that high, and in a non-TBM application it may well not be), and attack - by which time that ALARM is probably already sitting in the Rmin for your system, if not blowing up one of your radars.

With SEAD/DEAD, timing is everything.


Medium/long range SAM units need close range defence.
Here is the Russian answer for that challenge...



This is not a new concept.
Originally, when Dvina was fielded in the 60's, each battery received S-60 later ZU-23-2 for self defense.
In the 90's Hungarian Vega was defended by one Neva plus Igla's.
Posted By: GrayGhost

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 10/07/14 06:42 PM

Valid points.

And so with those in mind I ask ... do you believe that this ALARM missile is alone?

Do you believe that there aren't any air-launched decoys hanging around, wild weasels ready to bait SAMs, and that only a single missile of a single type will be launched, in a single attack mode?

Not saying you're wrong, just saying that you're moving the goalposts now smile
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/05/15 04:21 PM




















Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/05/15 09:49 PM

Nice! Do you have similar testing pictures and some "first hand" info for a "small Vega" - KH-31P (and later variants)?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/06/15 04:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Nice! Do you have similar testing pictures and some "first hand" info for a "small Vega" - KH-31P (and later variants)?


The missiles where mostly with no explosive filler (to save targets).... This particular one is hit by KH-31:


Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 07/06/15 05:15 AM




In yellow - AR variants...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 11/12/15 01:13 PM

Successor of HARM...


Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 11/22/15 07:02 PM

Offtop:

http://bentcorner.com/in-harms-way/

Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 11/22/15 09:35 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79


Thanks, it's a very interesting story with comments being more interesting than the article itself thumbsup
Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 01/04/16 09:18 PM

This is a big one (Probably Kh-22P)...

Posted By: piston79

Re: Anti-Radiation missiles - 01/05/16 09:11 PM




Looks that USSR developed some more ARM, but in a different class...:

KSR-11 / AS-5B "Kelt"






KSR-5P / AS-6 "Kingfish"






Kh-22 Burya / AS-4 "Kitchen"




Kh-15P / AS-16 "Kickback"




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