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S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD

Posted By: wasserfall

S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 11/19/12 01:45 AM

I was just wondering if Mr. Hpasp, or anyone, knows if it would be possible to include the S-25 Berkut; the earliest soviet SAM. I understand it would be like an older SA-2F, and that documentation and reference for it may be unexistant; but still i wonder if it's possible. I'm intrigued at how this system would work compared to the S-75




http://bobrowen.com/nymas/defendingthekremlin.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/s-25.htm
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-SAM-Site-Configs-A.html#mozTocId357043
Posted By: Mdore

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 11/19/12 03:38 AM

I'm not an expert in the slightest, so I could be wrong. But isn't the SA-1 manned by a lot of people? I've read it's capable of engaging a large number of targets at once. It could be out of the ability of a single person to operate.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 11/19/12 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Mdore
I'm not an expert in the slightest, so I could be wrong. But isn't the SA-1 manned by a lot of people? I've read it's capable of engaging a large number of targets at once. It could be out of the ability of a single person to operate.


The Berkut (SA-1) could fight 20 targets parallel.
It had 4 guidance stations manned by 2 officers each, and one station could handle 5 targets.

[At the S-300PS (SA-10B) system, two officer could handle 6 targets.]

Posted By: wasserfall

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 11/19/12 06:01 PM

Wow! That's crazy. I also read that the system was meant to defend against a THOUSAND BOMBER RAID; so yeah.. i guess it's beyond the ability of one person. But then again, i would think that of the SA-5! I wonder if it would be impossible to make the system work with a single console.. anyhow; it's an interesting thought, i would sure pay to handle that thousand-bomber raid. I understand that "Strategic" SAM's like the SA-5 (my hat off and a bow to those analogue-wizards who can operate it!!), SA-1, SA-10 and such are meant to be handled with a team. An interesting idea for a multiplayer mode, no? Thanks, Hpasp; you are the man!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 11/19/12 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: wasserfall
Wow! That's crazy. I also read that the system was meant to defend against a THOUSAND BOMBER RAID; so yeah.. i guess it's beyond the ability of one person. But then again, i would think that of the SA-5! I wonder if it would be impossible to make the system work with a single console.. anyhow; it's an interesting thought, i would sure pay to handle that thousand-bomber raid. I understand that "Strategic" SAM's like the SA-5 (my hat off and a bow to those analogue-wizards who can operate it!!), SA-1, SA-10 and such are meant to be handled with a team. An interesting idea for a multiplayer mode, no? Thanks, Hpasp; you are the man!


Patriot weapon system is operated by one officer only (TCA).
The other is only overlooking his activity (TCO), while the third is operating the radio.

Posted By: farokh

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 11/19/12 06:35 PM

i dont know why you foreign guys why you love old staff banghead

nike / berkut ,,,,screwy


Originally Posted By: wasserfall
I was just wondering if Mr. Hpasp, or anyone, knows if it would be possible to include the S-25 Berkut; the earliest soviet SAM. I understand it would be like an older SA-2F, and that documentation and reference for it may be unexistant; but still i wonder if it's possible. I'm intrigued at how this system would work compared to the S-75




http://bobrowen.com/nymas/defendingthekremlin.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/s-25.htm
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-SAM-Site-Configs-A.html#mozTocId357043
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 11/19/12 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: wasserfall
Wow! That's crazy. I also read that the system was meant to defend against a THOUSAND BOMBER RAID; so yeah.. i guess it's beyond the ability of one person. But then again, i would think that of the SA-5! I wonder if it would be impossible to make the system work with a single console.. anyhow; it's an interesting thought, i would sure pay to handle that thousand-bomber raid. I understand that "Strategic" SAM's like the SA-5 (my hat off and a bow to those analogue-wizards who can operate it!!), SA-1, SA-10 and such are meant to be handled with a team. An interesting idea for a multiplayer mode, no? Thanks, Hpasp; you are the man!


Patriot weapon system is operated by one officer only (TCA).
The other is only overlooking his activity (TCO), while the third is operating the radio.



there is no green access to patriot manual ????
Posted By: wasserfall

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 11/19/12 06:51 PM

I would really rather have the SA-6 before anything else; personally.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/04/15 05:12 PM

There is plenty of S-25 Berkut documentation on the net, anybody seen an operating manual?
Posted By: tebe_interesno

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/05/15 10:26 PM

Station major operator console

It was intended for combat control work station B-200 and the starting position

Console of control station B-200

Intended for centralized switching on and off the station

Control of transmitter station B-200 console.

Intended for the management and control of generators

Cupboard of input receivers station B-200.

Intended for the amplification and conversion received by the antenna signals reflected from targets and missiles emitted by the defendants.

Cupboard of targeting and guidance station B-200.

Intended for monitoring purposes in the zone of the review station, the selection of targets for destruction of anti-aircraft missiles, missile launch and monitoring of flight

Main amplifier signals reflected from the targets

the main amplifier signal defendants missile system reference voltage and distributors of marker tags indicator station B-200

Hardware devices determining targets and missiles and developing channel


Posted By: tebe_interesno

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/05/15 10:28 PM

Posted By: tebe_interesno

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/05/15 10:32 PM

Equipment ("state of emergency" console) of starting position bunker

designed for preparation and control of readiness for the launch of missiles
Posted By: tebe_interesno

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/06/15 07:34 AM

Control room c-25
Posted By: tebe_interesno

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/06/15 07:39 AM


Screen indicators workstation operator guidance and start

azimuthal screen on left and elevation screen on right
Range scale vertical

1. The operator controlled label target lock;
2. The target mark;
3. The target mark followed by the current group channel;
4. The target mark followed by the other group channel;
5. Waiting gates for capture targets;
6. Missile marks and its accompanying Gates.
Posted By: tebe_interesno

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/06/15 07:47 AM


Сommand post scheme


Reconnaissance and Information Centre scheme
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/06/15 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By: tebe_interesno
Click to reveal..

Screen indicators workstation operator guidance and start

azimuthal screen on left and elevation screen on right
Range scale vertical

1. The operator controlled label target lock;
2. The target mark;
3. The target mark followed by the current group channel;
4. The target mark followed by the other group channel;
5. Waiting gates for capture targets;
6. Missile marks and its accompanying Gates.


Seasoned (Dvina, Volhov) SAMSIM veterans now could raise their eyebrows, as the Betha (horizontal) and the Epsilon (Vertical) indicators are interchanged here...
... but the S-25 had several upgraded (different) versions:
54, S-25
57, S-25M (1. modernization)
65, S-25M (2. modernization)
68, S-25MA (3. modernization)
79, S-25MAM (4. modernization, stage 1)
82, S-25MR (4. modernization, stage 2)

From the S-25M version (1. modernization), the B-200 had 75km range and the usual (Epsilon/Betha) indicator.

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/15/15 12:48 PM

Nice big TWS antennas A-11/-12 (Nato Code: Yo-Yo)

Not sure that even a direct HARM hit would cause considerable damage at all...
biggrin



Posted By: piston79

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/22/15 02:05 PM

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/22/15 06:50 PM

good find!


Posted By: piston79

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/22/15 07:18 PM

Why they didn't react? What was the max. height of killing zone ot SA-1 at this time?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/22/15 08:19 PM

25'000m

S-25 can fire only towards the herring-bones, the plane is actually flying behind of it.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/22/15 09:13 PM

Nice reading - description of the S-25 site (in Polish, use translator)

HERE
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/22/15 10:20 PM

The YO-YO antenna system itself...
... and some nice reading.

biggrin





Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/24/15 06:30 AM

What book is this photo from?
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/24/15 12:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
What book is this photo from?


No idea... Got it from here: link
It is here too: http://lib.vo.uz/news/zona_51_prodolzhenie_chast_iib/2010-11-26-1295

at the end there are some sources....
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/28/15 01:24 PM

Ever wondered how these Yo-Yo antennas worked?
biggrin
Here is the Yo-Yo antenna design description...

Each (elevation and azimuth) antenna pair creates a 54x1 degree scanning beam...


... how? Each side of the Yo-Yo has three parabolic antenna connected together, the two side has 60 degree rotated.


Here is the base design, two pairs of three parabolic antenna connected on the same rotating axis.


After covering the design above (for wind mechanical protection).


The two side of the Yo-Yo is receiving the same feed, but only one at a time is online.


Final design.


The Yo-Yo was rotating by 50rpm, creating 5 full scans per second.
Posted By: Jonas85

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/28/15 11:19 PM

Very nice find, Hpasp beercheers

I suspected already that the radar was emitting and receiving in the "edge" direction of the triangle shape, not the face, but the internal workings were a mystery to me until you have uploaded these schematics! So when you see the triangle antennas, you are actually looking into the antenna casing from the side!

Maybe you know, why a pair of antennas, not a single one (with faster rpm?) Maybe one was on receive while another was on transmit? (in that case, the metal casing should protect the receiving antenna from microwave leakage I assume).
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/29/15 05:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Jonas85

Maybe you know, why a pair of antennas, not a single one (with faster rpm?) Maybe one was on receive while another was on transmit? (in that case, the metal casing should protect the receiving antenna from microwave leakage I assume).

Yes, for faster scanning. It would not be practical to made a six-sided "antenna polygon", so the decision was made to use two three-sided ones mutually shifted instead of creating a six-sided one which would necesarilly be huge.

It is similar to mirror polygons in high-speed (industrial) laser barcode scanners. They typically use six- or eight-sided polygons (although there are also twelve-sided ones, but they have some drawbacks).

Also two complete yo-yo's scan volume in two axes (one for elevation and one for azimuth), similar to wide angle antennas of S-75.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/29/15 06:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
[quote=Jonas85]
Also two complete yo-yo's scan volume in two axes (one for elevation and one for azimuth), similar to wide angle antennas of S-75.


Exactly, the Dvina use similar (bit narrower) scanning, and Raspeltin were able to squeeze both antenna into one cabin, using this patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US2585562
biggrin


Posted By: Jonas85

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/29/15 08:16 PM

It will take some time 'til I'll figure out how that Lewis scanner thing works!

Back to B200 topic: 5 scans per sec means a target at 300 m/s moves 60 m away per scan (if flying in perpendicular direction to C-25 site). Would that be too inaccurate even for a B-52, unless you have an interpolating computer or a nuke warhead? confused
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/29/15 08:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Jonas85
It will take some time 'til I'll figure out how that Lewis scanner thing works!

Back to B200 topic: 5 scans per sec means a target at 300 m/s moves 60 m away per scan (if flying in perpendicular direction to C-25 site). Would that be too inaccurate even for a B-52, unless you have an interpolating computer or a nuke warhead? confused


Much more than 300m/s. The station is also tracking its missiles doing Mach4 flying out towards an expected Mach2 incoming enemy plane, so it had both.

Interpolating analogue target/missile tracking system (alltogether 40 channels).
Nuke warhead missiles (against formations).
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/30/15 06:58 PM

A-11BSM azimuth scanning Yo-Yo Antenna
(1x54 degree, scanning from left to right)




A-12BSM elevation scanning Yo-Yo Antenna
(54x1 degree, scanning from down to up)
Posted By: Jonas85

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/30/15 08:56 PM

What about the guidance method? Was the Berkut able to use full lead guidance?

Having a 54 degree beamwidth means Berkut was not limited to a half-lead like in C-75, right? Or they were still using half-lead for safety reasons (to not lose the missile if the aim point moves outside the scan sector)?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 05/31/15 12:23 PM

Berkut had several modifications and missile types during its thirty years (1954..1984) of service.

6 system modifications: S-25, S-25M, S-25M2, S-25MA, S-25MAM, S-25MR
11 missile types: 205, 205A, 207, 207A, 215, 217M, 218, 5YA25, 5YA25M, 5Ya24, 44N6

The first S-25 version had only full lead guidance (S Standard method), as the first missile types had very low maneuverability (4g max), so the system could successfully engage only large and straight flying targets.

S-25M introduced the T (three point) guidance against jamming targets.

Pretty soon fast small, maneuverable targets were expected, so the S-25M2 transmit power was increased to 10MW (!!!), and the 217M type missile type could pull 14g (!!!).
biggrin
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 06/01/15 05:57 PM

It is well known, that around Moscow, more than 500km motorway rings were built, for the missile replenishment...



... so far it is common knowledge.

It is less known, that still in the 50's, another city received its motorway ring, for the same reason.

This week's quiz is the name of that city.
biggrin
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 06/01/15 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
It is well known, that around Moscow, more than 500km motorway rings were built, for the missile replenishment...


Still cannot figure it out how U-2 get behind the "herring bone" in such "bone-yard"
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 06/01/15 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
It is well known, that around Moscow, more than 500km motorway rings were built, for the missile replenishment...


Still cannot figure it out how U-2 get behind the "herring bone" in such "bone-yard"


U2 might simply exceeded the S25/205 system capabilities of 1956.

At that time, it was designed to kill subsonic intercontinental bombers (with huge RCS), flying at approx ~10km alt.
(no capabilities against receding targets)

As you can see in this diagram, you had to launch between 42..34km to be able to hit, before the U2 flown above 62 degrees elevation (above your scanning sector).
No APP included, just manual time calculation.
biggrin

The B-200 in 1956 had only 2MW power output, and approx ~40km max target detection range against an Il-28.

The U2 had approx half RCS of the Il-28, so max target detection range against the U2 is...
neaner



If there would be an S-25 SAMSIM, than it would be surely included as a challenging scenario.
We know its track, it simply followed the Minsk-Moscow rail track towards the Myasishchev factory in Fili.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 06/01/15 08:44 PM

Old video...
http://mfi.re/watch/t22qy5hnb3ozx56/25.avi
Posted By: Jonas85

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 06/02/15 02:41 AM

Sankt Petersburg (Leningrad then) would be an obvious choice...

From your data (40km detection against IL-28, half-rcs of IL-28) and the basic radar equation, the detection range of U-2 would be

R = 40 *(1/2)^(1/4) = 33.6... km.

So, the answer is 33-34km. Probably, still within the capabilities of the first-gen Berkut system, but the engagement window is very small and it is easy to slip through.

Btw, from the vid that you have uploaded, one sees nicely that the tracking operator radar scope is basically an oscilloscope (24 cadres per sec is enough to see scanning beam) biggrin
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 06/02/15 04:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


If there would be an S-25 SAMSIM, than it would be surely included as a challenging scenario.
We know its track, it simply followed the Minsk-Moscow rail track towards the Myasishchev factory in Fili.










Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 06/02/15 01:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Jonas85
Sankt Petersburg (Leningrad then) would be an obvious choice...


thumbsup

The construction of the double ring-road around Moscow (length of 900km, including 56 firing position) was completed in 1955, the next logical step was Leningrad.
Due to geographic conditions only one ring was planned.
The 300km long ring-road, and 34 firing positions were completed by 1958.


To limit huge expenses, decision was made to place Volhov/Neva batteries into the prepared firing positions instead of fielding the S-50 version of the Berkut around Leningrad.

Posted By: Jonas85

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 12/26/15 05:10 AM

Now we have some ideas what these SA-1 and SA-2 systems would face...

A chilling read:
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb538-Cold-War-Nuclear-Target-List-Declassified-First-Ever/


Quote:
Washington, D.C., December 22, 2015 - The SAC [Strategic Air Command] Atomic Weapons Requirements Study for 1959, produced in June 1956 and published today for the first time by the National Security Archive www.nsarchive.org, provides the most comprehensive and detailed list of nuclear targets and target systems that has ever been declassified. As far as can be told, no comparable document has ever been declassified for any period of Cold War history...



Quote:
The SAC document includes lists of more than 1100 airfields in the Soviet bloc, with a priority number assigned to each base. With the Soviet bomber force as the highest priority for nuclear targeting (this was before the age of ICBMs), SAC assigned priority one and two to Bykhov and Orsha airfields, both located in Belorussia. At both bases, the Soviet Air Force deployed medium-range Badger (TU-16) bombers, which would have posed a threat to NATO allies and U.S. forces in Western Europe.

A second list was of urban-industrial areas identified for “systematic destruction.” SAC listed over 1200 cities in the Soviet bloc, from East Germany to China, also with priorities established. Moscow and Leningrad were priority one and two respectively. Moscow included 179 Designated Ground Zeros (DGZs) while Leningrad had 145, including “population” targets. In both cities, SAC identified air power installations, such as Soviet Air Force command centers, which it would have devastated with thermonuclear weapons early in the war...


Quote:
To deliver the weapons to targets, SAC would use bombs and missiles. For bomber delivery systems, SAC would use B-47s, based in the United Kingdom, Morocco, and Spain, and intercontinental B-52s, which were just beginning to be deployed in the continental U.S.

SAC listed four missile types for delivering nuclear warheads: the Snark, the Rascal, the Cross Bow, and IRBM [Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile]. The Snark, an early intercontinental ground-launched cruise missile, was only briefly deployed, during 1959, because it was a fiasco (areas in the Atlantic Oceans where the missiles crashed were called “Snark infested waters”). The Rascal (replaced by the Hound Dog in 1958) and Cross Bow were both bomber-launched missiles, with the Crossbow targeting radars.

President Eisenhower had made IRBMs, along with ICBMs, a national priority, but in 1956 the IRBM was still projected for the future. With a range of up to 1700 miles (1500 n.m.), deployment overseas would be necessary and the Air Force envisaged stationing them in the United Kingdom, although talks with the British had yet to begin. The Air Force would eventually deploy liquid-fueled Thor IRBMs in the United Kingdom during 1960-1963, while Jupiter missiles were stationed in Italy and Turkey during 1961-1963 (removed as part of the Cuban Missile crisis settlement).[12]

SAC also identified the atomic bombs and the thermonuclear weapons that would be mated to the delivery systems. They would be Mark 6 (B and C) atomic weapons and Mark 15, 27, and 36 thermonuclear weapons. The latter had extraordinarily massive explosive yields: MK 15: 1.6 to 3.9 megatons; MK 27: 2 megatons, and MK 36: 9 to 10 megatons. These compare with the size of the U.S. nuclear tests in Operation Castle during 1954, in which actual explosive yields (not counting one fizzle) ranged from 1.7 to 15 megatons...
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 08/01/16 09:52 PM



Posted By: Jonas85

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 09/23/16 08:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Thanks thumbsup

How does it work at S-25? There are just two antennas for epsilon and beta. What is the source of the second signal?


I will answer Alien_MasterMynd question on GSh for C-25 Berkut system in this thread.

C-25 actually had an additional pair of auxiliary wide beam receiving antennas installed: one for elevation and one for azimuth. Here are the pictures from the 1967 C-25 Mod2 field testing album:

Far view, both GSh system antennas visible near their respective main channel elevation and azimuth antennas:



Close side view on the GSh-epsilon antenna:


Close side view on the GSh-beta antenna:



Shelves containing GSh circuits: It must be noted that GSh wiring in C-25 was done in a different way than in C-75 or C-125 (without using log amplifiers); this allowed to use GSh while in SDC mode in Berkut simultaneously (Voklhov/Neva could not use GShV/GShN in SDC mode).



And finally, amazing photos showing angle-jamming target in indicators at various ranges (d= 40, 30, 20, 15).



Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 09/24/16 11:00 AM

Can you drop me this album?
Im also interested in any guidance panel (and panel screen), and also any outside photo of the bunker.
Posted By: Jonas85

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 09/24/16 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Can you drop me this album?


Here is the Yandex download link.

It's from the History of PVO webpage.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Im also interested in any guidance panel (and panel screen), and also any outside photo of the bunker.


Can't help too much. There are two old albums with some low-quality panel photos on the same History PVO webpage.

Original Berkut C-25

Berkut mod 1(?) after second upgrade (1961, colorized)
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 09/26/16 02:10 PM

Jonas85: thanks thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 01/12/17 03:00 PM

Some hard to find information about the real expenses of first Soviet SAM systems...


Posted By: piston79

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 01/08/18 01:58 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 01/09/18 08:07 PM

[Linked Image]

[img]https://abload.de/img/kb-1-rak-skyvolx.jpg[/img

[Linked Image] ]
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 01/09/18 08:13 PM

[Linked Image]


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Posted By: piston79

Re: S-25 Berkut / SA-1 GUILD - 01/09/18 08:20 PM

[Linked Image]
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