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SAM Simulator

Posted By: Hpasp

SAM Simulator - 02/08/11 08:06 PM

I opened this topic, to receive feedback, and answer questions about the SAM Simulator, that can be downloaded from here:
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home


In the row: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F), S-75M3-OP Volhov (SA-2E), S-125M1 Neva (SA-3B), 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B), S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B)

wave
Hpasp
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/08/11 08:18 PM

One announcement,

There were a voting ongoing at several forums, about the possible SAMSIM development paths...

1, Add ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka, with the 1986 El Dorado Canyon, and some War of Attrition scenarios.
2, Add SA-75MK Dvina with realistic Vietnam and War of Attrition scenarios.
3, Add the NASA Digital Elevation Model, to have realistic ground clutter.

The result is that more than 55% of votes were given to option 3.
Interestingly, all the ex-Fire Control Officers, who used to test the SAMSIM, were also voted to option 3, so we were missing the simulation of an important factor so far.

yep
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/08/11 09:21 PM

I'm also interested in what ranks would operate the systems. I'd also be interested in information regarding the educational process of SAM operators. What types of schools teach operators, etc.

So some quick history of the Hungarian Vega Site...

During the November of 1978, the decision was made to create the WarPact Vega belt, and Hungary should participate with one site.


1980 November, a Soviet expert team arrived, to find the best location to the site, and they selected Mezofalva.
1985 April, the 3month system training was held at Gatchina (near Leningrad) for 103 person.
(33 officer, 8 nco, 15 military high-school student, and 47 enlisted)

The building of the site was in considerable delay, the original deadline was end of 1985.

1986 April, the two Vega system arrived in 13 train, all together 200 wagon.
After installation, the system was put on alert by 1st of Sept, 1986.

1987 They had the live firing in Asuluk.

The organization consisted 603 person...
76 officer,
52 non commissioned officers
422 enlisted
53 civilian staff

The site was leaded by a lieutenant-colonel, and the two firing battery by Majors.

Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 12:36 AM

Hmm, I see. Ok, next question!

I've started playing around with the SA-3, as I've never been very good with it and would like to become proficient. While re-exploring the system I found two switches that aren't covered by the manual, but seem to have some kind of effect. What if anything do these switches do?


Does switch 1 have something to do with nuclear armed missiles? That sure looks like a radiation symbol. I can't really venture a guess for switch 2. All I know is the first two positions are the RB light, and the third position is the H2 light.

Also, on the SA-2, why is the radar guidance switch set to K while the missile guidance switches are set to T/T? I still play with it here and there, and I constantly forget to set it to T/T due to the missiles defaulting to T/T. :/
Posted By: PLCC

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 01:37 AM

Hi again! I am loving the Vega. You did a great job.

I am curious, which mapping software have you been using to create maps such as the one above?

Cheers,
PLCC
Posted By: Lieste

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 06:24 AM

Curious about the Vega/Asuluk - the search radar appears to be in the centre of the Asuluk firing centre - according to the Search radar and map-overlay.
However, according to the IADS the battery is located some 300km to the SE in the Caspian Sea.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 08:46 AM

Does switch 1 have something to do with nuclear armed missiles?

No, the Neva system had no nuclear tipped missiles. Its range was too low for this purpose.
Just remember the real nuclear switches at the Volhov and the Vega has no "atomic" symbol at all.

That "channel 1,2" selector is just the inbuilt voice comm selector switch.
At the Volhov, you find these at the middle of the "q" screen, as a long row of switches.
(there, all the cabins could be selected one-by-one)

I can't really venture a guess for switch 2. All I know is the first two positions are the RB light, and the third position is the H2 light.

After the realization of the "ergonomic disaster state" of the Volhov system, (to be fair, for an expert user it gives more options, but for a lesser trained, it is way too complex to use it under stress) the development direction was aimed toward automation.

Even the developers planned that the Neva would launch only automatically when all the parameters are met.
(this was rejected by the military, so the manual launch possibility was included)

Back to the question...

Just remember how complex was the radio proximity fuse setting in the Volhov?
That switch is this at the Neva.

The leftmost setting "RV-SB" is the default automatic mode.
In this mode, the setting of the proximity fuse is automatically depending on the target altitude.
Either "SB" selector block against low altitude targets, or "RV" normal for full sensivity.

The middle setting "RV" is a manual mode, for full sensivity.

The rightmost "K3" is the same as the Volhov, detonate on radio command.

cowboy
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 09:36 AM

Also, on the SA-2, why is the radar guidance switch set to K while the missile guidance switches are set to T/T? I still play with it here and there, and I constantly forget to set it to T/T due to the missiles defaulting to T/T. :/

"radar guidance switch set to K"
What switch, and where?
eek2
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 09:38 AM

Thanks.
biggrin
Google Earth.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 09:41 AM

according to the IADS the battery is located some 300km to the SE in the Caspian Sea.

Can you please be a bit more specific?
eek2
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 11:13 AM

Hmm, good to know. I'm sure I ask a lot of annoying, mostly unnecessary questions, but I'm very interested to know about the full operation of the systems. I'm probably about the only person that would actually love to see the complete systems modeled. Such as being able to preform the missile diagnostic test on the SA-5 missiles before they're fueled, etc. Granted, I've no idea how this could even be simulated as the scenario time frames would have to be huge. Wishful thinking from someone who wishes they could've served on a SA-4/5/10 battery I suppose. ;D

I've also been wondering for awhile now if you'd consider adding a graphically adequate 3d engine to the sim sometime down the road? The way I see it, this would be a great tool for AARs. It wouldn't be necessary to have a 3d view while playing, rather it could be used to show you the fine points of an engagement.

Have you ever played or seen the Steel Beasts Pro PE AAR feature? Basically, it works by playing a recording of whatever scenario you just played. You've a set of controls to pause, play, skip to next event, and skip to previous event. It allows you to see exactly what happened to each main gun round you've fired. I know on several occasions I've missed a target and wondered how I managed to miss.



I think an open-source engine like Ogre 3D or something similar would provide great visuals, while not being too graphically intense for lower spec computers. Just imagine watching your SA-5 rotate and elevate towards it's target, suddenly the support bracket falls away, and a second later the missile jumps off it's rail. You could watch the boosters be ripped from the sides, the missile arc to it's target, and see it explode (hopefully) in proximity to it's target. Of course, you could also see your failed engagements, you could see exactly why you missed. You could see the target start a gentle turn which resulted in your missile bleeding off too much energy. Also, I think most people would simply like to visually see their engagement played out in 3d.

Of course, this could be down the road after the NASA terrain map, Davina, and ZSU. Assuming this is a feature you'd be interested in adding to your sim of course.

Other features I'd like to see would be an improved IADS screen to overcome the current problem of "contact madness". For example, a way to clear/hide targets that have been engaged, and a filter feature to hide friendly/civilian targets. Or going even further, the ability to filter based on the various contact types. For example, I want to see 0, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8, but I don't want to see 1, 7 or 9. Even a simple contact viewer would be sufficient to avoid the problem of overlapping targets which denies you the altitude information needed for I87V, jamming engagements, SA-3 engagements, and general manual target radar searches. Granted, I don't know how these systems really work or what their capabilities are. The way your sim displays the IADS could already be an improvement over the real thing. I remember those pictures of people tracking targets on the IADS board with a grease pencil..

Of course more targets would be great. Such as AWACS and other fancy aircraft like JSTARS, etc. And of course, more jamming! I can't be any more specific there as my knowledge of jamming is limited. But I'd like to see what ever kind of jamming the SA-5 jamming selection switches are used for. Also, perhaps the jamming of the SA-2 system? I remember you describing a switch that shows rather two systems are being jammed, one was the missile guidance channel, and I forget what the other is. Granted, this would only be useful if it effects the Davina, as iirc, you said it doesn't effect the Volhov. And even then, only if there is a way to overcome the system jamming. There'd be little reason to use a system if it's always rendered useless by jamming, lol.

And finally a mission editor would be great to have. The ability to have real world airbase locations, and the ability to either assign aircraft to an airbase, or have a OOB for each airbase based on the year selected in the editor. I can only imagine the massive non-nuclear WW3 air war scenarios that would be created! Along with this would be an AI for the other SAM sites. I'm assuming there currently isn't a friendly SAM AI as I've never seen another SAM intercept a target while playing a scenario.

I'm tempted to say nuclear weapons, however that would probably be a somewhat boring feature. In short scenarios or in training you couldn't miss, and in larger scenarios you'd probably trigger a mutual release of nuclear weapons. And once nukes start flying the quality of the scenario would be massively deteriorated. There are a lot of people out there that love the topic of the cold war gone hot. But if you bring up the topic of nuclear employment the conversation will die off quickly. While some nuclear scenarios could be of interest, such as a US preemptive nuclear armed bomber raid on the soviet union, I just don't see enough of a use for nukes to suggest them.

In any event, I look forward to seeing the sim improved, and I look forward to the many surprises to come!
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 11:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Also, on the SA-2, why is the radar guidance switch set to K while the missile guidance switches are set to T/T? I still play with it here and there, and I constantly forget to set it to T/T due to the missiles defaulting to T/T. :/

"radar guidance switch set to K"
What switch, and where?
eek2


This one:
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 02:09 PM

I found an interesting video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H1qLoW9hNM&feature=related

In it you can see:
0.12-0.14 - 9K33M3 OCA-AKM (http://www.kupol.ru/system/files/images/mesto%20operatora%20v%20BM%20OSA.preview.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K33_Osa)
4.44-5.10 - S-300 cabin

And a lot of work with the Plotting Table.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 05:50 PM

I checked, and the missile guidance switches should be in Half-Lead state instead of T/T.
I will correct it.
Posted By: Lieste

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 06:15 PM

I didn't see the misplaced battery again at Asuluk, but it was offset on the first session - the target was in the range area and the battery near max range to the SE. If I see it again I'll get a screen capture.

I do note that the Vega gives a "missile launch" each time the fire button is pressed, but only fires the round and plays the launch sound if the safety is pressed first, and all firing parameters are met. Frequently see multiple weapons 'coming' from launcher 1, even when the system has 1 missile loaded.

If these are 'simulated' shots then they should be distinguished from real 'war-shots' in the AAR - but I think they are not, as sometimes a single target can be hit by more missiles than actually expended.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 06:41 PM

I do note that the Vega gives a "missile launch" each time the fire button is pressed, but only fires the round and plays the launch sound if the safety is pressed first, and all firing parameters are met. Frequently see multiple weapons 'coming' from launcher 1, even when the system has 1 missile loaded.

It was caused by one misplaced "End If".
It will be corrected.
thumbsup
Posted By: Lieste

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 07:22 PM

Oops, had a runtime error type mismatch when operating the small controller on the lower right of the "X" station.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 07:30 PM

Got it.
Before the weekend, I will create a minor release, containing all the fixes.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 07:48 PM

Have you ever played or seen the Steel Beasts Pro PE AAR feature? Basically, it works by playing a recording of whatever scenario you just played. You've a set of controls to pause, play, skip to next event, and skip to previous event. It allows you to see exactly what happened to each main gun round you've fired.

Please do not expect the same features of an 125$ professional simulator, from a free stuff done by one person as a hobby.
sigh

Other features I'd like to see would be an improved IADS screen to overcome the current problem of "contact madness". For example, a way to clear/hide targets that have been engaged, and a filter feature to hide friendly/civilian targets. Or going even further, the ability to filter based on the various contact types. For example, I want to see 0, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8, but I don't want to see 1, 7 or 9. Even a simple contact viewer would be sufficient to avoid the problem of overlapping targets which denies you the altitude information needed for I87V, jamming engagements, SA-3 engagements, and general manual target radar searches. Granted, I don't know how these systems really work or what their capabilities are. The way your sim displays the IADS could already be an improvement over the real thing. I remember those pictures of people tracking targets on the IADS board with a grease pencil..

The plotting table cannot handle more than 10 targets.
It was designed to be confusing, to give you the feeling that the Vietnamese felt seeing a 100 plane package incoming.

Of course more targets would be great. Such as AWACS and other fancy aircraft like JSTARS, etc.

There are two AWACS in the Giant Reach scenario. They are at the two most western racetrack.


And of course, more jamming! I can't be any more specific there as my knowledge of jamming is limited. But I'd like to see what ever kind of jamming the SA-5 jamming selection switches are used for. Also, perhaps the jamming of the SA-2 system? I remember you describing a switch that shows rather two systems are being jammed, one was the missile guidance channel, and I forget what the other is. Granted, this would only be useful if it effects the Davina, as iirc, you said it doesn't effect the Volhov. And even then, only if there is a way to overcome the system jamming. There'd be little reason to use a system if it's always rendered useless by jamming, lol.

I think about it.

And finally a mission editor would be great to have. The ability to have real world airbase locations, and the ability to either assign aircraft to an airbase, or have a OOB for each airbase based on the year selected in the editor. I can only imagine the massive non-nuclear WW3 air war scenarios that would be created! Along with this would be an AI for the other SAM sites. I'm assuming there currently isn't a friendly SAM AI as I've never seen another SAM intercept a target while playing a scenario.

Mission Editor is included, but switched off.
I do not want to allow its use, as with every new development, more and more new parameters are introduced, and the old scenarios got incompatible.
Allowing the Editor would mean, that you could only use your saved missions for the current release, and cannot for the later ones.
I certainly do not want that at the current state.

Later, when the parameters will not change so often, than it will be enabled.

I'm tempted to say nuclear weapons, however that would probably be a somewhat boring feature. In short scenarios or in training you couldn't miss, and in larger scenarios you'd probably trigger a mutual release of nuclear weapons. And once nukes start flying the quality of the scenario would be massively deteriorated. There are a lot of people out there that love the topic of the cold war gone hot. But if you bring up the topic of nuclear employment the conversation will die off quickly. While some nuclear scenarios could be of interest, such as a US preemptive nuclear armed bomber raid on the soviet union, I just don't see enough of a use for nukes to suggest them.

Neither I.

Please do not misunderstand my points.
Several feature development born out of the ideas from this, and other communities, and I keep my notebook open, and my pen ready for those.
thumbsup
Posted By: Vulture

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/10/11 01:02 AM

I just wanted to express my gratitude. This simulator gives me a lot of fun. It was actually great to see it from the "other side" as I am coming from the flight sim community.

Keep up the good work Hpasp!
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/11/11 07:51 AM

Ok, I give up. I'm sure someone else can refine my basic idea into a more robust AAR system. For now my basic idea is a line graph showing the flight of the missile(s), and a reverse line graph showing the targets flight. There could be some kind of magnified graph showing the missiles flight in a 10 km proximity to the target so you could see where the missile exploded in relation to the target. The upper graph in this: http://www.ausairpower.net/S-200VE-Engagement-Envelope-F.pdf could possibly be used as an underlay.

Example:


*facepalm* On second thought, a line graph wouldn't work very well for showing the missile in relation to the target. You'd need a system that could display the information in 3 dimensions. In my example you can clearly see the target turning left, while the missile turns right to intercept. However, it doesn't actually display the point of detonation in relation to the target.

sigh
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/11/11 01:14 PM

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail


*facepalm* On second thought, a line graph wouldn't work very well for showing the missile in relation to the target. You'd need a system that could display the information in 3 dimensions. In my example you can clearly see the target turning left, while the missile turns right to intercept. However, it doesn't actually display the point of detonation in relation to the target.

sigh
I understand your point, but if you read this on the simulator mainpage:
This is rather a system simulator, not a game.
The main goal during development was to simulate what the operators of the SAM battalion could see, and hear during engagement.

Think about it: SAM operators didn't had a good idea of the engagement. They didn't have a perfect 3D graphic showing the position of their target and their missiles in a timeline to study their own eficiency...

Ok, i know... "But it's not real, it's virtual simulator..." But i think that, knowing the simulator isn't a remunerated project, we can't expect this features for a near future.
Combining the plotting screen with the current AAR system looks very good and acceptable IMHO.
I liked the idea of getting a plotting table with the updates on altitude and position of detected targets and the hits, together with the current AAR, in the end of the battle.
I think that's a good and doable idea.
Posted By: AntiTank

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/11/11 02:16 PM

They sure can look out of the cabin door.
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/11/11 02:34 PM

If the target is more than 30km distant, they can look outside, but they can't see anything wink
Only way of confirm kill is take a jeep and try to reach the crash site.
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/11/11 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Originally Posted By: NaiseFail


*facepalm* On second thought, a line graph wouldn't work very well for showing the missile in relation to the target. You'd need a system that could display the information in 3 dimensions. In my example you can clearly see the target turning left, while the missile turns right to intercept. However, it doesn't actually display the point of detonation in relation to the target.

sigh
I understand your point, but if you read this on the simulator mainpage:
This is rather a system simulator, not a game.
The main goal during development was to simulate what the operators of the SAM battalion could see, and hear during engagement.

Think about it: SAM operators didn't had a good idea of the engagement. They didn't have a perfect 3D graphic showing the position of their target and their missiles in a timeline to study their own eficiency...

Ok, i know... "But it's not real, it's virtual simulator..." But i think that, knowing the simulator isn't a remunerated project, we can't expect this features for a near future.
Combining the plotting screen with the current AAR system looks very good and acceptable IMHO.
I liked the idea of getting a plotting table with the updates on altitude and position of detected targets and the hits, together with the current AAR, in the end of the battle.
I think that's a good and doable idea.


Well, as you said, it's a PC sim. Further, it's a PC sim meant to be played by casual people, and casual people like to know what the result of their actions are. Personally, I think even a high end military simulator would give very detailed AARs. It's good to understand what exactly happened so we can learn from our mistakes, and repeat our successes. I'd like to see more engagement information simply because I like to see all of the fine details.

I'd love to see this sim grow much larger than it currently is. NASA terrain, more systems, massive USSR vs NATO air war scenarios, multiplayer with the ability for several people to operate the same system, and broader system simulation. I'd like to see full system simulations to the point where I actually have to test SA-5 missiles before they're fueled and loaded. This would of course be possible in huge scenarios where you've managed to fire all of your ready missiles. Not to mention the commanders display shown earlier in this thread would have a use in multiplayer.

However, what I'd like to see and what Hpasp's vision for his sim is are two different things. I'm just throwing my ideas out there to see if anything catches his eye. I honestly don't care if none of my ideas get implemented, or even if he strips the current AAR feature back out. Either way I'll continue to enjoy this great sim and pester him with many, many more question.

yep
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/11/11 03:28 PM

However, what I'd like to see and what Hpasp's vision for his sim is are two different things. I'm just throwing my ideas out there to see if anything catches his eye. I honestly don't care if none of my ideas get implemented, or even if he strips the current AAR feature back out. Either way I'll continue to enjoy this great sim and pester him with many, many more question.

Dear All,

Currently Im studying the graphics hardware acceleration programing.
yep

On the first release, the idea was that we just give the same info, that a real SAM battery commander has, to help understanding that the battery commander may never know, if he really killed his target.
(thus controversial killed enemy numbers are born)

As the game advances, AAR was implemented, and giving much more info, a real FCO ever dreamed of.

But players like it, so it was a great idea.

3D AAR is another fancy feature, truly unrealistic, but might be enjoyed buy the users, so it is written and noted.

I would like to do it right, as the other part of the sim (no corners cut) so I envision a 3D digital (NASA) map with the actions are overdrawn as colored curves.

Br,
Hpasp
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/11/11 03:32 PM

Only way of confirm kill is take a jeep and try to reach the crash site.

And if the crash site is at enemy territory, you might have never be able to prove...
... just check the middle mark on Col. Zoltan Dani's S-125M Neva (SA-3B) cabin door.

Only the first and the third are fell within his country.

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/11/11 03:39 PM

They sure can look out of the cabin door.

Cabin door is locked during firing, as the light would blind the eyes of the operators.

In the dark, they could see more detail on the scopes, just like the submariners...
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/11/11 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail


However, what I'd like to see and what Hpasp's vision for his sim is are two different things. I'm just throwing my ideas out there to see if anything catches his eye. I honestly don't care if none of my ideas get implemented, or even if he strips the current AAR feature back out. Either way I'll continue to enjoy this great sim and pester him with many, many more question.

yep

No doubt that a asking and participating community is a major key factor for the development of every sim.
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
I understand, but the vietnamese knew that what they were trying to shoot down was, in fact, the recon plane SR-71?! I mean, was the information of Blackbirds flying over North Vietnam air space in their hands?

They had to document each shootings...
...just check this doc:
http://narod.ru/disk/19940925000/%D0%A175%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%20%20SR71.djvu.html

In which positions did the soviet experts operated on Dvina batteries?!
i.e: Battery commander, fire officer, tracking operator, etc.

Every one of those

Many thanks once again, very useful info!
Posted By: boog2006

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/12/11 09:44 AM

Hpasp,

The idea of ground clutter sounds cool, and using real SRTM data sounds interesting, if complex. Be careful though, since this data was taken by the space shuttle, areas that are far north or south are not available because it's impossible for the orbit of the space shuttle to cover all of the earth. Before you start, I would make sure that you have enough data for Estonia/Scandanavia, as I think the northern limit is around there somewhere.

As far as having a 3D environment is concerned, I have a compromise proposal. The user base (that's us) could make short avi files from their favorite air sims (LOMAC series, Falcon4.0, Third Wire series, etc.) of different SAM hits and misses, etc. on different aircraft types. Then we could submit these to you and all you would have to do is play a small movie clip at an appropriate time in SAM sim. I think this would be enough to give a sense of "action" for the gammers out there and would be a good chance for others to contribute too. I think something could be worked out. This is simHQ, after all. yep
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/12/11 10:09 AM

Originally Posted By: boog2006
Hpasp,

The idea of ground clutter sounds cool, and using real SRTM data sounds interesting, if complex. Be careful though, since this data was taken by the space shuttle, areas that are far north or south are not available because it's impossible for the orbit of the space shuttle to cover all of the earth. Before you start, I would make sure that you have enough data for Estonia/Scandanavia, as I think the northern limit is around there somewhere.

As far as having a 3D environment is concerned, I have a compromise proposal. The user base (that's us) could make short avi files from their favorite air sims (LOMAC series, Falcon4.0, Third Wire series, etc.) of different SAM hits and misses, etc. on different aircraft types. Then we could submit these to you and all you would have to do is play a small movie clip at an appropriate time in SAM sim. I think this would be enough to give a sense of "action" for the gammers out there and would be a good chance for others to contribute too. I think something could be worked out. This is simHQ, after all. yep

The only problem with this method is it doesn't provide any information that you don't already know. I, for one, would much rather have a 3D simulation of events than a short video clip. The underlying idea is to provide you with an analysis of the events in a pretty to look at format. The option to play this would be presented to you in the AAR, thus providing a "fog of war" in situations where you're not be able to stay on-air long enough to confirm a kill.

Two questions for Hpasp:

1. Have you ever played Falcon 4.0? Your AAR idea sounds exactly like F4s ACMI. :p
2. Do you happen to have a chart for the S-200 showing it's flight time to various ranges?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/12/11 11:40 AM

2. Do you happen to have a chart for the S-200 showing it's flight time to various ranges?

Just raw data:

time - range - speed
3s - 1km - 3Mach
50s - 65km - 6.4Mach
100s - 140km - 4.3Mach
150s - 195km - 3.2Mach
200s - 235km - 2.8Mach
220s - 255km - 2.6Mach
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/12/11 12:40 PM

I would prefer an 3D AAR than a video collection of hits. Simply because it is impossible to cover all situations present in the simulator and most of these simulators do not include half of the systems present in the SAM Simulator.

Also, the simulation of SAM in these simulators is a bit different ... It takes a direct hit to lead the aircraft to the ground. I never saw a 50m explosion down a aircraft on Flamming Cliffs 2 or Black Shark...

If so I would prefer a 3D AAR. But i don't think this as a priority. I would be satisfied with a 3D AAR in a distant future.
Smile2
Posted By: Lieste

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/12/11 01:57 PM

If you need to fill voids in mountainous regions or 'go' north of 60N, then look at viewfinderpanoramas.org
The data quality isn't quite as good (there tends to be more 'terracing' in the terrain in flat areas (1m height though, so little real impact)).

Remember that in these areas BUA and vegetation can have a significant effect on LOS and noise. Not sure how this would be handled though.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/12/11 06:23 PM

The idea of ground clutter sounds cool, and using real SRTM data sounds interesting, if complex. Be careful though, since this data was taken by the space shuttle, areas that are far north or south are not available because it's impossible for the orbit of the space shuttle to cover all of the earth. Before you start, I would make sure that you have enough data for Estonia/Scandanavia, as I think the northern limit is around there somewhere.

Real SAM action usually taken place in the Mediterranean.
yep
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/13/11 02:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
2. Do you happen to have a chart for the S-200 showing it's flight time to various ranges?

Just raw data:

time - range - speed
3s - 1km - 3Mach
50s - 65km - 6.4Mach
100s - 140km - 4.3Mach
150s - 195km - 3.2Mach
200s - 235km - 2.8Mach
220s - 255km - 2.6Mach

Thanks. I'm planning to eventually put some of the important info together with some of the engagement graphs, etc. and print them out for use as posters. I guess I'll have to try to convert that into one of the fancy looking graphs sometime.

One more question/suggestion, would you enable non-historical scenarios for the SA-5 until more scenarios are made for it? While the SA-5 would reign free in the other scenarios and make them extremely easy, it would provide more stuff to shoot at. The SR-71 scenarios are only fun for so long, and the same is true for Asuluk targets. This is assuming that this would be easy/fast to do, of course.
Posted By: Silver_Dragon

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/13/11 08:19 PM

Other insteresting addoon can be folow ZSU-23-4 series (Far Far Away):

Sa-6 Division Air Defense SAM
9S19 Radar
9P25 Launcher
Transloader
Ammo Carrier
Sa-8 Regiment Air Defense SAM
Radar vehicle
Sa-8 laucher
Sa-8 Transloader/ammo carrier
Sa-9/13 Battalion Air Defense SAM
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/14/11 03:59 PM

One question. The soviet test site on the simulator is "Asuluk". But on google i couldn't find any sources for this site.
Instead, looks like the "Ашулук" translation is Ashuluk. I found many sources talking about this site...

Why is that?!
Posted By: AntiTank

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/14/11 04:46 PM

Found some great videos about C-125

http://www.youtube.com/user/petschora2a#g/u
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/14/11 05:06 PM

One question. The soviet test site on the simulator is "Asuluk". But on google i couldn't find any sources for this site.
Instead, looks like the translation is Ashuluk.


It is always questionable, how the Cyril letters are translated...
... "X" (Cyril - H) is certainly not there.



They are still practicing...
Posted By: Lieste

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/14/11 06:08 PM

The usual transliteration would be Ashuluk.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/15/11 02:18 PM

SAMsim Version 921c is available:
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

It contains more than 20 fixes.
grunt
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/15/11 04:06 PM

That was quick. One question; what exactly is UPR Half-Lead? Is this the original version that could half-lead it's self into the ground?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/15/11 04:20 PM

One question; what exactly is UPR Half-Lead? Is this the original version that could half-lead it's self into the ground?

Half lead guidance of the Volhov.
page 34.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/16/11 08:46 AM

If You want to contribute to the SAMsim, You could create Youtube Tutorial videos of the SA5B operation similarly to the earlier ones, and I would link it from the webpage.

Documentation translators are also welcome, but that is a huge work.

Thanks, Hpasp
cowboy
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/16/11 02:14 PM

Wish I could help with the videos, but my good computer burnt out a few months ago. The spare computer I'm currently using might actually FPS lag running solitaire. If anyone else is interested in making tutorial videos, but doesn't have the recording software: http://camstudio.org/
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/17/11 03:19 PM

SAMSim utilizing NASA Digital Elevation data...
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/17/11 10:07 PM

What about other sources of interference, like forests and buildings? Are you planning to add that?
Very good job, looks great;
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/17/11 10:27 PM

Awesome!
Posted By: Lieste

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/17/11 11:35 PM

At least some of that will be in the SRTM heights - the reflection tends to come from upper edges of forests and BUA.. but that does mean that ground levels are poorly represented. However the difference is usually only 5-15m depending on what type of cover is present (large city centre buildings excepted).

More significant to LOS/noise might be the linear features that will not really show up at all - powerlines, walls, hedges, fences etc, as these are both more prevalent (in the UK I'd estimate around 50% of most 'long distance' fields of view will terminate in some form of linear feature (or linear feature around a wood/BUA) rather than the ground surface - and a lot of ridgelines are bisected by roads/paths/field boundaries).

OTOH, most long range antenna are mounted significantly higher than ground level - so it might be sufficient to just reduce the antenna 'height above ground' by a position dependant factor to account for local man-made clutter and ground cover. This might mean no reduction for flat hard steppe, and a reduction of 'most' of the antenna height for western European wooded/built up terrain. Of course YMMV - this is just off-the-cuff and no more than supposition.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/18/11 09:27 AM

Another Digital Elevation Mash battle-space...
Posted By: Lieste

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/18/11 10:09 AM

I think it looks better with out the 'paper' behind each character, as in your Sinai rather than Hungary shot.

What does it look like with white/gray backgrounds in the text fields - some of the writing can be obscured where contrast is lowish.
Small change, compared with adding in a realistic noise function, but still...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/18/11 10:51 AM

It might be a bad news, that real-time DEM calculations will require a powerful machine.
I rewritten the Volhov graphic engine, to use HW acceleration, but it still suffers.

U can expect the following screen...

Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/18/11 02:43 PM

Hey, you said that incorporating such terrain would take you a year or so! smile
Or, encouraged by your community, you take double time clicking it out...

I wonder why those batteries were so poorly located.
If you lay low in the valley, you have "up" positions just on your both sides. Did not Soviet 'specialists' help in emplacement of those batteries?
I can imagine that they wanted to avoid shooting at beam elevation below zero and with valley slopes as a background in case Israelis used valleys to sneak between Dvinas - OK, but where were Neva batteries with their short range capabilities and shorter reaction time? I had hard time trying to defend "Dvinas" in scenario 2. For example, 5/11 is at the edge of only Neva 5/14 engagement zone.
The locations of Dvina and Neva should be made in exactly opposite way! (elevated positions is another issue)
Or, maybe the Nevas were so valuable that it was they that were 'defended' by Dvinas? Or rather Dvinas were put in open as targets in order to probe Neva for the first time without any stress of their (Soviet, I assume) crews? sigh

Do these clever Soviet books draw some conclusions out of this situation?
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/18/11 03:26 PM

I think Hpasp meant it would take him a year to implement the NASA terrain and the two new SAMs. Iirc, it usually takes him around 4-6 months to fully create a system.
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/19/11 01:08 AM

Originally Posted By: vintorez

I can imagine that they wanted to avoid shooting at beam elevation below zero and with valley slopes as a background in case Israelis used valleys to sneak between Dvinas - OK, but where were Neva batteries with their short range capabilities and shorter reaction time? I had hard time trying to defend "Dvinas" in scenario 2. For example, 5/11 is at the edge of only Neva 5/14 engagement zone.
The locations of Dvina and Neva should be made in exactly opposite way! (elevated positions is another issue)


Hi
Some time ago I wrote some contribution about czechoslovak SAMs building and one thing I noticed that layout of S-75 (SA-2) and S-125 (SA-3) is not ideal but their disposition was created in such way because at first were created SA-75/S-75 batteries and only later this was supplemented in some areas with S-125 in insufficient numbers. Basically if you want to create "ideal" defense posture you need from the start to think about both SA-75/S-75 and S-125 coverages but in history most of "eastern" nations at first built only S-75 coverages later supplemented by S-125 which was not ideal but too expensive to readjust.
Regards
Posted By: Lieste

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/19/11 05:12 AM

As each battery is in a pre-designated location it should be possible to sub-set and pre-process the DEM to eliminate unnecessary 'real-time' calculations from the whole dataset... only once the mobile SAM/AAA positions are modelled in a tactical situation where they can move is true real-time processing essential.

Each battery would then have a minimum elevation for no interference and then unique patterns of interference for main and side-lobe noise for their elevation/azimuth ranges. OTOH the storage requirements for a full detail pattern might be prohibitive, but it may be worth considering??
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/19/11 07:42 AM

As each battery is in a pre-designated location it should be possible to sub-set and pre-process the DEM to eliminate unnecessary 'real-time' calculations from the whole dataset... only once the mobile SAM/AAA positions are modelled in a tactical situation where they can move is true real-time processing essential.
Each battery would then have a minimum elevation for no interference and then unique patterns of interference for main and side-lobe noise for their elevation/azimuth ranges. OTOH the storage requirements for a full detail pattern might be prohibitive, but it may be worth considering??


It is done that way.
The units are elevated to their realistic height, to be able to look-down, and a pre calculated "panorama" picture is applied.
The target planes flying under 3000m got their terrain following radar to realistically fly above terrain.
Posted By: PLCC

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/23/11 08:51 AM

Sorry, I spoke too soon. The S-75 table is from the document comparing the characteristics of the S-75M, S-75M2, and S-75M3.


The S-125 graph is from the study on the reduction of the inner engagement boundary thereof.

However, I think it may not be entirely accurate, or applicable. This video shows a 29 kilometer shot (with upgrades to just the radar, not the missile): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT4inkGm2j8
Here is the missile velocity telemetry graph for that test:


I don't have time right this minute to do a rough integration, but it appears that the powered stage of flight lasts longer than the ~10 km indicated on the G graph.

The missile in the video is probably a 5V27D. I am not certain, though, that it has the same characteristics as the V-601PK.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/23/11 08:20 PM

SAMSimulator version 0.921d is released
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

It contains HW accelerated graphics for the Volhov system, some other minor improvements, and Japanese documentation.
wave
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/23/11 09:37 PM

I can't select the Digital Elevation Terrain option. As I said before, my current computer is trash, so that could be the problem. One minor bug; if you check the non historical scenario option the current system name gets stuck. So if you select that option while on the S-75 and then scroll to the 2K11, the name shows as S-75.
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/24/11 02:02 PM

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
I can't select the Digital Elevation Terrain option.

Me too! Do the game automatically detects your PC's configuration and define the option as available or not?! My PC isn't TOP, but would like to test this feature frown
Probably, .921d version still don't have the Digital Elevation Terrain completly done yet.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/24/11 03:01 PM

DEM is not included yet in v921d.

This feature is really HW intensive, when it is turned on, it can be felt on my (Intel Core i7-860 2,8GHz).
So there will be the possibility to turn that off.
Posted By: StartbahnWest

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/24/11 08:50 PM

Hpasp, is there someone else translating the manuals in german language? Because i will be finished with the translation of the Vega manual until the end of the next week and I think it would be very important for the quality of the translation to pre-view it.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/24/11 11:35 PM

You are the first.
thumbsup

You can contact Peter Skraus to check it from professional point, unless You are an exFCO.
http://peters-ada.de/index.htm
WinkNGrin
Posted By: StartbahnWest

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/25/11 06:02 PM

Okay, then I hope he will have some free time to look at the translation. piggy
No, I'm not an exFCO, but I have some interest in the Air Defence because my father serviced in the Sowjet Air Defence as a driver for the missile supply vehicle of a S-75 battery. smile
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/27/11 09:13 AM

Abandoned Lybian S-75M Volhov battery near Tobruk, with V-755 missiles.

Somehow it seems to me, that equipment maintenance was not on the top of their priority list...
nope


Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/27/11 05:28 PM

The most hardcore sims on PC...
http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/02/27/the-most-hardcore-sim-developers-on-pc/
thumbsup
Posted By: Muggs

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/27/11 05:42 PM

Congratulations! thumbsup
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/27/11 06:25 PM

Congratulations! You deserved it, and even more. thumbsup
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/27/11 11:54 PM

Congrats! I'm surprised that both you and E-Sim didn't place higher.
Posted By: apelles

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/28/11 02:31 PM

Congratulations!

One of the best hardcore sim ever.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/01/11 12:06 PM

Currently I'm working on the tuning of the missile behavior.
It should perform within 1% of the real shooting range data smile

In the next version, you will have the possibility to choose between the V-755 (Guideline Mod.3) and the V-759 (Guideline Mod.5) missile.
The later (more advanced version) has lower speed and range, but better overload capability.
It become available to WarPact around 1983.
yep


Posted By: Vulture

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/01/11 02:30 PM

That's a cool feature, always wanted to choose between missiles.

As always, huge thanks Hpasp!
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/01/11 03:29 PM

Sounds great. I've been wondering, do you have any plans for AI improvements? I'd like to see targets break formation/flight path and engage defensive rather than continuing on their flight path and hoping for the best.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/01/11 03:46 PM

do you have any plans for AI improvements? I'd like to see targets break formation/flight path and engage defensive rather than continuing on their flight path and hoping for the best.

During the War of Attrition, pilots were rather determined to press on.
More intelligent AI, and HARM missiles are expected on the Libyan scenarios...
... no wonder that they are delayed all the time.
yep
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/02/11 09:03 AM

Hpasp, one about Krug - what is the missile velocity (average in-flight and burnout)?
In some cases (even not at maximum range) the target and missile marks at the range display close to each other painfully slow. I have even noticed cases when distance between missile and target is increasing! When 3T method is using, to observe that effect, even with a receding target, the missile must be actually slower than the target! (I didn't shoot at Scud :), and the effect was before 65s from launch, which mean that the engine must have been still running). Even with the target taking aggresive 180 deg turns shortly before expected impact (which, as you said before, is still not the case), such effect would be corrected by guidance system within a fraction of seconds.

I know that the Krug range display is just a linear way to show sometimes curved reality smile and I'm not an expert in math, but where is the fault in my reasoning?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/03/11 04:45 PM

Original Russian language SAM system fire range testing manuals...
Just priceless yep

S-75M Volhov (SA-2E)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/0qorfj20p1x2dp5/S-75M.rar

S-75M2 Volhov (SA-2E)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/8vk6imh2sd12q95/S-75M2.part1.rar
http://www.mediafire.com/file/h1xetxp62c9331l/S-75M2.part2.rar

S-75M3 Volhov (SA-2E)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/9yq6f93fmcz7rqh/S-75M3.part1.rar
http://www.mediafire.com/file/84l9rq01z47uymu/S-75M3.part2.rar

S-125M Neva (SA-3B)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/pc8dxx2f4cm3ixk/S-125M.rar
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/03/11 07:46 PM

Awesome find! Two new questions:

1. Do you plan to implement a simulation mode for all of the sams? If I understand correctly, they have the same simulation capability as the SA-2, but they require a separate system carried by a truck. Since live fire is disabled against practice targets in Hungary I'd like to have the ability to at least simulate engagements.

2. I saw the images you contributed to the Air Power Australia SA-5 article. Do you have plans to implement these stations into the sim at some point, or did you just make them for fun?
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/05/11 10:11 PM

What software is that?
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/06/11 05:18 PM

Actually 5V27D were available also during Cold War. Czechoslovakia bought some in late '80 together with S-125M1A upgrade but I don't know how many of them. Anyway it would be wrong to have these in 1970 scenario. And, is it known if Serbs used this missile against F-117 or the older type?
Posted By: PLCC

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/07/11 01:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Before '99, everybody used the V-601P, (-PU, -PD, ...).

I heard rumors, that the 5P73 could handle only 3pcs of V-601D, as those weight is higher.


As far as I can tell, the V-601PD is the 5V27D.

Those rumors are familiar to me as well, but it appears that no such restriction was in place with the latest S-125 variant.
For example:







Originally Posted By: PN79
And, is it known if Serbs used this missile against F-117 or the older type?

I believe that they did.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/07/11 06:42 AM

Hard to follow Soviet missile designations, but...

S-125 Neva system used the V-600P 5V24 missile.
S-125M Neva-M system used the V-601P 5V27 missile types...
5V27G, 5V27GP, 5V27GPS, 5V27GPU
S-125M1 Neva-M1 used the 5V27D.

In Hungary we had the S-125M1 with 5V27U, and 5V27D missiles.
(photos made during decommissioning)




During 99, the Pechora-2M modernization was revealed, with updated missile.
V-601D (?) 5V27D. It has modernized guidance method KDU, more heavy 2nd stage and bit higher range and top speed.

more info here: http://pvo.guns.ru/s125/index.htm
Posted By: PLCC

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/07/11 07:19 AM

By the way, KDU is used by the Belarusian Pechora-2T and 2TM, not the Russian Pechora-2M. The changes are entirely algorithmic. Unmodified 5V27D missiles are used by the 2T/2TM.

The 2M is supposed to be armed with 5V27DE missiles, on which there is not much information. Apparently, the warhead and fuse were replaced, along with the booster.


Originally Posted By: Hpasp

(photos made during decommissioning)

nope It's a sin to wreck such beautiful hardware!
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/08/11 01:50 PM

Originally Posted By: PLCC
Unmodified 5V27D missiles are used by the 2T/2TM.

The 2M is supposed to be armed with 5V27DE missiles, on which there is not much information.

So the information here is wrong?
It says that the Pechora-2M can also be loaded even with older 5V27.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/08/11 02:43 PM

V-601P 5V27U and V-601PD 5V27D were used in the WarPact countries, so their behavior will be simulated.

I was not able to find any contrary to the mentioned article...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/09/11 07:10 PM

Neva system using 90m Digital Elevation Mesh...

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/10/11 06:21 PM

WASHINGTON - A senior U.S. official says NATO has decided to boost flights of surveillance planes over Libya as the alliance debates the utility of imposing a "no-fly zone" over the country.
U.S. Ambassador to NATO Ivo Daalder says allies agreed on Monday to increase AWACS flights from 10 to 24 hours a day. The expansion is part of contingency planning for possible military intervention in Libya beyond humanitarian efforts.


I would be interested, which side is currently owning the four active S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) SAMs...
confused

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/10/11 07:12 PM

In Libya there is 8 prepared Vega sites.
The 8 active battery can be located to 17 possible locations...

According the Google Earth 2011 imagery...

Tripoli
- 2 battery, with 0+2 missile on launcher, with facilities to store and prepare extra missiles
- empty prepared site for 3 battery (!!!)

Zlitan
- 2 battery, with 3+2 missile on launcher

Surt
- excluding the 2 destroyed battery site...
- 2 battery, with 0+2 missile on launcher, with facilities to store and prepare extra missiles

Benghazi
- 2 battery, with 0+3 missile on launcher, with facilities to store and prepare extra missiles
- empty prepared site for 2 battery
- empty prepared site for 2 battery

Tobruk
- empty prepared site for 2 battery
Posted By: PLCC

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/11/11 08:32 AM

An interesting question.

Tripoli, of course, is secure; Ziltan too.

Sirt is near the edge of control, but has not been captured yet. I don't imagine that Libyan forces are so incompetent that they would lose Qaddafi's birthplace (the town of Qasr Abu Hadi, 15 km to the south), and the adjacent active military airfield and SAM site -- but I've already been surprised...

In my assessment, we can write off the Benghazi site. It's probably in a state similar to the one of the S-75 of which you posted photographs previously. It's too bad that the crews are so undisciplined that they would surrender such valuable equipment without apparent resistance.

How effective would the ground target mode have been against the rag-tag criminals? Given some of the news reports of them retreating when faced with serious resistance, it's curious whether they'd have avoided sites after the first missile fired at them. At the receiving end of a Volkhov in flight, I'd be inclined to shit myself in response, and they probably would too. Nonetheless, the crews may have simply found themselves without protection from military and security forces and lacking the means to effect a timely evacuation of their systems. Until there's some evidence of that though, my opinion of their performance will remain quite negative.

I'm looking forward to Qaddafi's victory. As evidenced by the recent statements of the US Director of National Intelligence, he finally seems to be getting his act together. While business as usual down may not have been very pleasant for everyone, there's a lot to be said for law, order, and stability. A secular, if tyrannical, government is in my opinion superior to any form of 'democracy' they could cook up down there.
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/11/11 09:36 AM

I think that as for Benghazi site concerns soldiers here just went home if not joining uprising as most military units in eastern Libya.

Anyway I see the biggest problems with these "secular" dictatorship in economy. I know something more about Egypt but system is similar also to other these countries. Basic problem is that ruling group did not allow existence of any independent economic companies and at the same time they divide between themselfs all economic spheres so they are not rivals to each others. So in reality it looks like this: there is only one factory in whole Egypt which produce refrigerators - because of domestic production run by people close to regime (this will probably change now) any import of foreign refrigeratos is meet with extremely high import tarrifs (like 100% or similar). And because this producer have no rivals he did not care about quality or about low prices - one econom here described their products to be on level as in socialist Czechoslovakia in 1970s!!! However ordinary people here can see how people live in Europe and this creates similar effect to what was in communist block in 1980s - people want much higher standard of living than that corrupt system is able to provide so people riots.
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/11/11 09:44 AM

Yeah, such abandoned Libyan Volkhovs were really funny. Wonder if they remained fuelled and armed... Poor goats, just in case smile Don't you know whether that site was abandoned as a result of uprising or it was just an evidence of daily "care level" in Libyan armed forces?

Can I have a few questions regarding Vega? They are based on the experiences from playing the 1985 scenario:

1. When the target starts jamming, there are cases when missiles that were switched to LOBL, when switched to HOJ, are unable to acquire the target. Signal strength is about 45 dB but the seekers cannot “see”it – a bug?

2. What to do when target changes the flight direction (closing to receding) after LOBL missile is launched? Is the missile lost? Or not, if the signal is strong enough? Would it be indeed sooo simple to fool a Vega?

3. Is there any relation between missile distance to target and the strength of reflected signal the missile receives? The closer the missile is to the target, the stronger signal it should receive – otherwise, signal strength received by the radar being, say, 250 km away from the target would be the same as received by the missile being at the same moment, say, 20 km from the target?
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/11/11 12:20 PM

Originally Posted By: PLCC

I'm looking forward to Qaddafi's victory. As evidenced by the recent statements of the US Director of National Intelligence, he finally seems to be getting his act together. While business as usual down may not have been very pleasant for everyone, there's a lot to be said for law, order, and stability. A secular, if tyrannical, government is in my opinion superior to any form of 'democracy' they could cook up down there.
As PN79 said, the typical tyrannical government on those countries don't have a fair "free market" policy. Its rulers manipulate the economy at their whim and to their personal prosperity.
Besides, the same kind of state that could be established by a military after a coup could be established by a popular revolutionary government as well! They aren't a deformed and completely unorganized mob. They military forces are, but they have a pretty structured government for a embrionary state...
Plus they would, theoretically, represent the people's will, unlike a officer who participated on a military coup year ago...

Originally Posted By: PN79
I think that as for Benghazi site concerns soldiers here just went home if not joining uprising as most military units in eastern Libya.
Or captured by the rebels, as well as many Libyan military...
But i don't think it's very useful. I mean, the rebels from eastern front haven't, apparently, a well structured chain of command. And organization, discipline and planning is essential for the proper use of the S-75 and S-200 sites.
I don't think they could properly relocate the sites to do the air defence to the rebel ground forces (look like even those ZPU-4 and MANPADS were enough to achieve a average air-defence against Kadhafi's Air Force) and don't think the Benghazi's sites are in range for ground attack on the frontline, but i'm really not sure.

But the Kadhafi's sites looks much more useful! If they're working...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/12/11 07:12 AM

1. When the target starts jamming, there are cases when missiles that were switched to LOBL, when switched to HOJ, are unable to acquire the target. Signal strength is about 45 dB but the seekers cannot “see”it – a bug?

First always the RPC should reacquire the target, and only than the CVM could command the GSN where to look and reacquire.
(Hope that I'm not too technical biggrin )
Remember, to be able to acquire jamming target, the CVM should start another program (new program).

2. What to do when target changes the flight direction (closing to receding) after LOBL missile is launched? Is the missile lost? Or not, if the signal is strong enough? Would it be indeed sooo simple to fool a Vega?

You have 18 missiles comrade, do not spare those!!!
wink

All Doppler radars (even the most modern western designs) are affected by low radial target speed.

3. Is there any relation between missile distance to target and the strength of reflected signal the missile receives? The closer the missile is to the target, the stronger signal it should receive – otherwise, signal strength received by the radar being, say, 250 km away from the target would be the same as received by the missile being at the same moment, say, 20 km from the target?

Yes
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/16/11 02:48 PM

Life will become more interesting, when the SRTM (Shuttle Radar Topography Mission) data will be implemented...

yep



Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/18/11 11:56 PM

I am wondering how difficult would be to shoot at low flying targets with this feature. Thanks Hpasp.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/19/11 06:50 AM

I am wondering how difficult would be to shoot at low flying targets with this feature.

The development of the SDC program-block did not started yet...
(SDC-I, SDC-II, Low/High Speed Mode, Distant/Close Range Mode, Rough/Fine Wind Compensation)
...Fire Control Officers job will not be easier with this. biggrin

New controls to be used:


ready
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/19/11 08:56 AM

It seems to be an AAA hit against Qaddafi's MiG-23 ...






Photos from: AFP - Patrick Baz
Posted By: Buren

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/19/11 12:36 PM

Newest reports say it was actually a rebel fighter shot down by government forces.
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/19/11 03:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
It seems to be an AAA hit against Qaddafi's MiG-23 ...

Looks like it was an MANPAD:

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/19/11 04:08 PM

Hmmm, not seen any tracer, or smoke trail in this video (might because of resolution)...
it might simply rusted during flight.
yep
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/19/11 04:42 PM

AFAIK a MANPAD missile does not produce smoke on later flight stages...
And the explosion isn't a sign of AAA.
I think it was a SA-7 friendly-fire. AFP confirmed it was an rebel plane.
Don't think it was a larger SAM. The explosion is too small for a V-601, or a V-755, etc...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/19/11 04:51 PM

AFAIK a MANPAD missile does not produce smoke on later flight stages...
I think it was a SA-7 friendly-fire.


Hmmm...
... can be, but the smoke trail should be there.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/19/11 04:58 PM

Even on this video you can see the smoke-trail...

Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/19/11 05:30 PM

Hmmm, i think the launcher was behind the buildings... So the camera couldn't provide the image of the smoketrail.
But i dunno, it's just a suposition.
Posted By: PLCC

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/20/11 12:43 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/19/operation-odyssey-dawn-tomahawks-libya

It's reasonable to assume now that not a single operational SAM site exists.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/22/11 03:32 PM

Hmmm...

Those Northern African airspace is very-very corrosive.
screwy

Earlier I put here a corroded Volhov (20DSU) missile, than a MiG-23MS fallen, now an F-15E is also bitten dust because of mechanical failure.
(Just remember NATO's first reaction after F117 lost over Serbia)




Posted By: PLCC

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/23/11 04:21 AM

And others:




Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/24/11 07:57 PM

I have a question on S-200. Why the RPC have a NRZ (IFF) antenna but there's no indicators (besides the plotting board) that the target is actually a friendly or a foe?! I mean, if there is an IFF antena, the radar operators should know if they're tracking a friendly or a foe, isn't it?!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/25/11 06:06 AM

I have a question on S-200. Why the RPC have a NRZ (IFF) antenna but there's no indicators (besides the plotting board) that the target is actually a friendly or a foe?! I mean, if there is an IFF antena, the radar operators should know if they're tracking a friendly or a foe, isn't it?!

The primary mode of target acqusition is using the IADS (where we know our target).
Anything else is only backup solution.

In Hungary, we not bought the IFF for the RPC at all.
(Now, both are in a museum at Kecel)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/25/11 06:40 AM

Here you go with the controls of the IFF system.


In the simulator, IFF functionality is not modelled at any of the systems, but you can find the related switches/buttons.
biggrin
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/25/11 09:55 AM

Air defense in real life...

Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/25/11 08:56 PM

The primary mode of target acqusition is using the IADS (where we know our target).
Anything else is only backup solution.

In Hungary, we not bought the IFF for the RPC at all.
(Now, both are in a museum at Kecel)


I see.. But the manual says that little antenna on side of the RPC is the IFF receiver. I thought it was organic from the S-200!
Very good, thanks for the info.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/26/11 05:04 PM

P-15 (Flat Face) low altitude target acquisition radar...
... I would suspect an S-125M Neva (SA-3B) SAM battery around.
darkcloud
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/26/11 05:13 PM

P-19 (Flat Face-B) low altitude target acqusition radar installation by civilians at the Hungarian Air Defense Museum, Zsambek.



Myself, and several original SAMSIM testers (Ex Fire Control Officers / Battery Commanders) are participating...
biggrin

ps: Sorry for the music...
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/27/11 02:39 PM

Very cool video.
Hpasp, this is the normal procedure for the P-19 installation? Looks pretty complicated for a mobile radar station... How much time for the deployment?!
If someday i go to Hungary, this museum is a must-go!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/28/11 05:52 AM

Hpasp, this is the normal procedure for the P-19 installation? Looks pretty complicated for a mobile radar station... How much time for the deployment?!

Nonono!!!
biggrin

It is like, when civilians try to do it without tools / documentation / training.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 03/28/11 06:05 AM

santa
It might be a no news for some, I just wanted to make sure, that everybody knows it...
... in the current version, you can have a quick look at the SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2F Guideline), and the ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka panels.

At the Shilka, use push "Z" for Commanders panel, "X" for Angle Officer, "C" for Range Officer.
You can exit by pressing "Esc", of find the "Power Off" button on the Commanders panel.



At the Dvina, "Q", "A", "Z" is similar to the Volhov.
To exit, the "Power Off" button is at the same place, as in the Volhov.
Posted By: Muggs

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/03/11 09:45 AM

Quote:
Will support any Monitor resolution at or above 1280x1024.


http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

notworthy notworthy notworthy
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/03/11 11:29 AM

Update on SAMSIM development
thumbsup

1, Add the possibility to select between more missile types for a system.
These missiles will fly within 1% of real firing range data.
V-755 20DSU and V-759 5Ya23 for the Volhov.
V-601P 5V27U and V-601PD 5V27D for the Neva.

2, Will support any Monitor resolution at or above 1280x1024.
(I recently bought a 1920x1080 display smile

3, Include NASA digital terrain model (90m horizontal resolution), to simulate realistic earth clutter
Readiness: Volhov - 90%, Neva - 50%, KRUG - 0%

Volhov without SDC (Moving Target Indicator)


Same with SDC-1.

Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/04/11 10:12 PM

"3, Include NASA digital terrain model (90m horizontal resolution), to simulate realistic earth clutter
Readiness: Volhov - 90%, Neva - 50%, KRUG - 0%"

Now with this it will be really fun with low flying targets yep
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/08/11 01:28 AM

Hallo Hpasp
I have found a minor bug with S-200. When I start SAM simulator and at first start 1985 scenario (necessary for this error to show) and then I go to Asuluk with S-200 then the position of S-200 battery in map (table) is wrong.Everything else function normally.
Picture:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/08/11 05:38 AM

Correction will be included on the next release.
thumbsup
Posted By: Merges

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/08/11 08:04 AM

live practice "PechoraM1" in Romania and "Kub" in Ashuluk

http://rutube.ru/tracks/1165144.html?v=d...bmstart=1113095

http://mehanik27.livejournal.com/15971.html

BTW: many thanks for your job!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/08/11 10:03 AM

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/11/11 05:36 AM

Nice workplace...
biggrin
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/11/11 10:19 AM

This is a subtle hint? readytoeat
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/11/11 12:16 PM

Would love to do it, just missing some...
- opportunities to shot the required photos
- documentation
- testers with live fire experience
... without these, the simulator would not be "Realistic to the switch".
sigh

Any tip of the depicted system?

Posted By: Merges

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/11/11 06:55 PM

well i think i can get a tester for C-300 (SA-10) SIM, but have absolutely no idea where can you find docs and pix :-(

BTW there is an "official" SIM for sale here: http://www.raspletin.ru/produce/software/altek-300/
i wonder how much is it ;-)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/14/11 11:12 AM

Japanese translation of the S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) manual is available, done by std_sk.

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/14/11 05:14 PM

Interesting article about the nuclear SA-5B missiles.

http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/pzr_s_200_w_880n.html

One selected 'special' battery of a Vega site had 3pcs V880N missile with 25kt nuclear warhead, that was stored at an underground shelter, protected by 2x barbed wire.
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/24/11 01:57 PM

Any news?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/25/11 09:47 AM

There might be an important announcement at the end of next week, that will influence the further development path of the SAM Simulator.
thumbsup
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/25/11 03:12 PM

This is all WAYYY cool. copter
Posted By: Wolfhound

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/25/11 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
There might be an important announcement at the end of next week, that will influence the further development path of the SAM Simulator.
thumbsup


Let me guess. Your teaming up with Eagle Dynamics to create a detailed battlefield simulator, including an even more indepth version of SAMSIM yeah!!!???
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 04/27/11 08:07 AM

Promotion to General will allow Hpasp to hire a dedicated staff to speed up writing new scripts?
Posted By: Sim

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/03/11 03:01 PM

We are going to get a 1080p support?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/03/11 04:39 PM

We are going to get a 1080p support?

Yes.
Next version will support any Monitor resolution at or above 1280x1024.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/04/11 05:01 AM

Announcement at the end of this week.
thumbsup
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/04/11 06:51 AM

at or above 1280x1024.
And 1440x900?!

Announcement at the end of this week.
Specially for Europe (and Soviet )Victory Day?)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/04/11 10:00 AM

And 1440x900?!

nope
Nope, only at or above 1280x1024.
Posted By: JWNoctis

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/04/11 04:08 PM

If you have an operating system CD, one nice way to circumvent this would be a virtual machine...Been blowing Blackbirds out of the sky on my 1280x800 notebook, with a virtual machine running on 1280x1024 with scrollbars. You can only see a part of the interface at one time with this method, although it's still way better than nothing.

An unrelated note: Does Google KML supports displaying height in tags? Just might have an idea for a probable easy-to-implement, and stopgap, AAR feature.

And...thanks! biggrin
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/04/11 04:48 PM

Does Google KML supports displaying height in tags? Just might have an idea for a probable easy-to-implement, and stopgap, AAR feature.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about KML, but i know, that Google Earth is using the same (STS99) digital terrain dataset, that I will implement.
yep
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 08:03 AM

Instead of announcement, here are my thoughts and questions...

I'm toying with the idea of adding the S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B) to the SAM simulator, but...

1, Hungary only planned to field this system, it never realized it.
The Cold War ended before the procurement, witch means that in Hungary nobody ever operated/fired this system, and nobody could test the simulator, or help in its development.

2, There are surprisingly big amount of detailed information on the WEB about it...
- VKO article about live firing with missile track drawings: http://www.vko.ru/DesktopModules/Article...version=Staging
- Youtube videos about its operation
... but they are not technical enough.


So I could do an SA-10B sim, but it would not as deep and realistic as usual, and certainly would not be "Realistic to the Switch".

Currently Russia is removing these systems from live service, replacing those with the second/third generation (S-300PM SA-20A, S-400 SA-21).

So it might be better to wait few years, until more technical info will surface about its operation (meantime do "Realistic to the Switch" Shilka and Dvina), or should I do a not so realistic sim?

What is Your opinion?


Posted By: JWNoctis

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 11:30 AM

I'd vote for staying with what we have for some time...Not sure whether it will be good or not to add a system that's still relatively new with top-of-the-line derivatives into the sim. Probably not a problem, but still...And accuracy is more important than technical advancement IMO.
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 11:53 AM

Originally Posted By: JWNoctis
I'd vote for staying with what we have for some time...Not sure whether it will be good or not to add a system that's still relatively new with top-of-the-line derivatives into the sim. Probably not a problem, but still...And accuracy is more important than technical advancement IMO.


I think I agree with this.
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 12:28 PM

Is it possible to contact SAM operators from former czechoslovak SA-10B battalion? At least we can ask at http://forum.fortifikace.net/ if there is such possibility. (Afterall I understand that you have contact to at least one former czechoslovak Neva operator.)
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 04:35 PM

I think you should do Shilka and Dvina, because:
1) they really fought
2) they fit into the overall "style" of the old, single target channel systems
3) Information on C-300 is extremely small and difficult to obtain. Today possible to make only "arcade" game, but not a sim.

Truly curious would be to make the Kub, seems he have in Poland.
Posted By: DDG167

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 05:10 PM

COOL!Thanks for your work, which makes me have rare fun.
I will finish translating S-75M3 Volhov document into Chinese soon, maybe this weekend. May I send it to you?
Posted By: DDG167

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 05:32 PM

Maybe making a S-300 sim few years later, and make it Realistc would be a better choice. More information need to be collected...


-http://www.vko.ru/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?tabID=320&ItemID=280&mid=2891&wversion=Staging

It seems to be a test fire of S-300PMU2 in China, and the red target is CK-1.


Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 05:39 PM

Yes, I will include it into the docuset.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 05:43 PM

Is it possible to contact SAM operators from former czechoslovak SA-10B battalion?

They have only one battalion, and after the separation of the country, it was given to Slovakia.
I assume that it is still Slovak National Secret, like the Hungarian KUB.
Posted By: ObvilionLost

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 07:04 PM

I'd say that adding S-300is a ad idea, simply because it's not going to be "Realistic to the Switch".
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 07:09 PM

Voting...

After implementing the NASA digital terrain model, to simulate realistic ground clutter, what system should I implement?

- SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2F)
- ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka

?
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 09:03 PM

When I wrote that little info about history of CS SAM units (I know it needs some updates) in http://www.makephpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=79&mforum=geimint it was mentioned possibility to contact former czechoslovak S-300 battalion commander as he is Czech and is thus not bounded by slovak's secrets. Dunno if that possibility is still there.

Anyway I would like to see both Dvina and Shilka sooner than S-300 because of using them in existing scenarios. As for which one sooner - Dvina would be excellent for Vietnam scenario but Shilka is something comletely different and interesting so I leave that decision for others.

Regards
Pavel Novak
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 09:33 PM

My vote goes for the S-75 Dvina.
Originally Posted By: Amidkor
I think you should do Shilka and Dvina, because:
1) they really fought
2) they fit into the overall "style" of the old, single target channel systems
3) Information on C-300 is extremely small and difficult to obtain. Today possible to make only "arcade" game, but not a sim.

Truly curious would be to make the Kub, seems he have in Poland.

agreed
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/06/11 11:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Voting...

After implementing the NASA digital terrain model, to simulate realistic ground clutter, what system should I implement?

- SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2F)
- ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka

?



Of course the Sa-75 MK Dvina !
Posted By: JWNoctis

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/07/11 02:30 AM

Adding Dvina would definitely make those War of Attrition and Vietnam scenarios even more realistic, and challenging...I'd vote for Dvina.
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/07/11 04:30 AM

Dvina
Posted By: DDG167

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/08/11 02:26 PM

Translation finished, and I made a pdf document, but the content links did not work...
Let me try again.

After implementing the NASA digital terrain model, to simulate realistic ground clutter, what system should I implement?

Dvina. Thanks!
Posted By: apelles

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/09/11 01:31 PM

Shilka.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/09/11 03:36 PM

Voting is ongoing till the end of this week...
... between the ZSU-23-V1 Shilka or the SA-75MK Dvina.
thumbsup

Vote, if you want to learn its operation "Realistic to the switch..."


Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/09/11 04:25 PM

Your Shilka panel...
... "Realistic to the Switch"

thumbsup

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/09/11 04:29 PM

Your Dvina panel...
... "Realistic to the Switch"

thumbsup

Posted By: DDG167

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/09/11 05:39 PM

Awesome!
S-75 Chinese document ready. how should I send it to you?:)
Posted By: Muggs

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/09/11 06:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Voting is ongoing till the end of this week...
... between the ZSU-23-V1 Shilka or the SA-75MK Dvina.


Dvina, please! thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/09/11 06:48 PM

S-75 Chinese document ready. how should I send it to you?:)

Please send it to the email, at the bottom of this website...

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Posted By: Cat

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/10/11 12:53 AM

I have to vote for the SA-2F. I default to the Volhov the few times I've managed to play. I'm used to LORO mode radar and I miss it when I'm using the S-125.

Miao, Cat
Posted By: JWNoctis

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/10/11 12:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Vote, if you want to learn its operation "Realistic to the switch..."

As realistic as possible!...And how much reflex would it take to operate the Shilka? Given its nature as a SPAAG...

Originally Posted By: Cat
I have to vote for the SA-2F. I default to the Volhov the few times I've managed to play. I'm used to LORO mode radar and I miss it when I'm using the S-125.

Miao, Cat

As far as I can tell, LORO mode is currently only useful maximizing detection range, decluttering the scope, and possibly improving guidance accuracy in the sim. It should help against off-angle standoff jamming, which is probably yet to be implemented, and SA-2F doesn't have the antenna for that...Well, perhaps.

Too bad we can't substitute S-200 for S-75 in those scenarios. biggrin
Posted By: DDG167

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/10/11 03:37 PM

OK.Email sent.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/10/11 04:31 PM

Thanks You!

Now the documentation is available in 6 languages...
... if you want to translate it to your language, I can send you the original Word docs.
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/10/11 04:36 PM

I have to vote for the SA-2F. I default to the Volhov the few times I've managed to play. I'm used to LORO mode radar and I miss it when I'm using the S-125.

According to former Hungarian Fire Control Officers, the SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F) was the easiest system to use.
Compared to it, the S-75M3 Volkhov (SA-2E) is an ergonomic nightmare.

Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/10/11 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Instead of announcement, here are my thoughts and questions...

I'm toying with the idea of adding the S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B) to the SAM simulator, but...

1, Hungary only planned to field this system, it never realized it.
The Cold War ended before the procurement, witch means that in Hungary nobody ever operated/fired this system, and nobody could test the simulator, or help in its development.

2, There are surprisingly big amount of detailed information on the WEB about it...
- VKO article about live firing with missile track drawings: http://www.vko.ru/DesktopModules/Article...version=Staging
- Youtube videos about its operation
... but they are not technical enough.


So I could do an SA-10B sim, but it would not as deep and realistic as usual, and certainly would not be "Realistic to the Switch".

Currently Russia is removing these systems from live service, replacing those with the second/third generation (S-300PM SA-20A, S-400 SA-21).

So it might be better to wait few years, until more technical info will surface about its operation (meantime do "Realistic to the Switch" Shilka and Dvina), or should I do a not so realistic sim?

What is Your opinion?




First off, I would love to see the SA-10 in SAM Sim, it's been my favorite system for many years. However, I doubt you'd be able to create a realistic enough representation of the system to meet your standards. Sadly I agree with others; wait until you can get enough detailed information to make this system as realistic as the others.

As for the Shilka vs Dvina, I vote for the Shilka. The Dvina would be great to have as it's the realistic system for many of our current scenarios. However, the Shilka is a more attractive system to me simply because it's something new. I'd rather have a brand new toy that I know nothing about than a downgraded toy I've been playing with for a long time.

Finally, awesome work on the interface! I've always loved how photo-realistic they look.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 05:50 AM

First off, I would love to see the SA-10 in SAM Sim, it's been my favorite system for many years.

So am I!
Just imagine...
- You have 48 ready to launch missiles, no waiting for reload.
- No poisonous fluids are required before launch.
- You can attack 6 targets simultaneously, with 12 missiles.
- Mach7 missile, with 75km range and 20g+ overload capability.
- No hundreds of switches, just a logical array of buttons and screens.
- No ground clutter.
- Only one wheel for Azimuth, no need to track target in Elevation/Azimuth.
- 105degrees of view in Azimuth, 90degrees in elevation.
- Narrow phase modulated pencil beams, only your targets can detect it. (no worrying for weasels)
- Firing after 5 minutes of stop, than scouting away within 5 minutes. (no worrying for enemy counterattack)

Finally, awesome work on the interface! I've always loved how photo-realistic they look.

Thanks, they are photos of real systems.
thumbsup



Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 05:57 AM

Life will be more interesting with realistic ground clutter...
thumbsup
Volhov 95% ready, only testing and fine tuning is done currently.
Neva 70% ready.
KRUG 0%.
VEGA as a Doppler radar has no effect for ground.

Screen without and with SDC*.


*SDC is the impulse-doppler mode of the Volhov, called MTI (Moving Target Indicator) in the west.
Posted By: JWNoctis

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 11:35 AM

Awesome!:D

And will terrain shadowing be modeled along with this? Seems so but still...?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 01:31 PM

And will terrain shadowing be modeled along with this? Seems so but still...?

Yeah!

During 1959, the locations of the SA-75/SA-75M Dvina (SA-2A/B) units in Hungary were selected against medium-high altitude targets.

Twenty years later, during the planned re-organization / re-equipping to S-75M/S-125M/S-200VE/S-300PMU (SA-2E/SA-3B/SA-5B/SA-10B) the locations were re-selected to be able to fight against low altitude targets...
... just the money went out (at the end of the Cold War), and some units were stayed in legacy positions (bottom of valleys), so they had short visibility range for low targets.

grunt
Posted By: arkhangelsk

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 04:03 PM

Let me put in quick vote for Shilka, and to take your time with the S-300.
Posted By: Vulture

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 05:08 PM

I vote for Shilka. Something different and more to learn!

And while the SA-10B sounds really tempting I'm for the "Realistic to the switch" approach.
Posted By: DDG167

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 05:38 PM

- You have 48 ready to launch missiles, no waiting for reload

Ehhh...not 4 TEL with 4 missiles each, altogether 16 ready to launch?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 05:44 PM

Ehhh...not 4 TEL with 4 missiles each, altogether 16 ready to launch?

nope

The S-300PMU (SA-10B Grumble) Organization

The S-300PMU (SA-10B) firing battery contains:
One target acquisition unit
One 36D6 (36D6 Tin Shield) medium to high altitude 3D target acquisition radar.
One 76H6 (76N6 Clam Shell) low altitude continuous wave target acquisition radar.
One fire control unit
One 30H6E RPN (30N6E Flap Lid B) target illuminator and missile guidance radar.
Four firing unit, containing…
One 5P85CY; (5P85SU) launcher connected to the 30N6E with radio (~120m).
Two 5P85DY; (5P85DU) auxiliary launcher connected to the 5P85SU by cable.

Each firing unit transports 12pcs ready to launch V-500R 5V55R (Grumble mod.1) missiles, altogether 48pcs for the battery.



Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 06:12 PM

Or you can count it by yourself...

-6 target channel (similar launch indicator at right as the Vega has)
-4 firing unit
-3 launcher per firing unit, with 4 missiles each

thumbsup

Posted By: DDG167

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 06:37 PM

Thank you!I have made a mistake, there are 8 5P85DU...dizzy
Posted By: DDG167

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 06:59 PM

Formerly, I always remember that the S-300 PMU site in china have the 30N6E in the central and 4 firing position around, so get a 4*4=16 result! So shame...Thank you for corret my wrong opinion!
I have check some pictures again and found that more common firing unit in china contains one launcher with auxiliary launcher.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 07:04 PM

Easy to remember...
4 pcs 5P85SU "Smart" launchers with telecode radio channel to the RPN (illumination and guidance radar) fire control radar.
8 pcs 5P85DU "Dumb" launchers with cable only connection to a "Smart" launcher.

5P85SU "Smart" launcher
(with telecode antenna deployed, and launch preparation F3 cabin)


5P85DU "Dumb" launcher
(missing telecode antenna & F3 cabin)
Posted By: DDG167

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/11/11 07:13 PM

Er, I think I would not forget it again...reading
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/12/11 04:04 PM

Some good videos:
Strela-10 and TOR-1 - http://twower.livejournal.com/539519.html
Shilka, Tunguska and Igla - http://twower.livejournal.com/534952.html


TOR-1 fotos - http://twower.livejournal.com/533778.html
Later in this journal will be more!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/14/11 10:30 AM

The next system to be included in the SAM Simulator will be the SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2F Guideline).
62.5% of the votes arrived for the Dvina, 37.5% for the Shilka.

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/14/11 04:55 PM

In 1953, after the successful fielding the first Soviet SAM sytem the S-25 Berkut (SA-1 Guild), the Counsel of the Soviet Union is decided on the following systems.
The prohibitive cost of the fixed S-25 system initiated the development of two new SAM systems.

Leningrad (as the second most important city) was planned to be defended by the fixed S-50 Dal (SA-5 Griffon) system, while all the other cities was planned to be defended by the cheaper, towed S-75 (SA-2) family.

Lavochkin OKB-301 was appointed to design the fixed S-50 Dal "Leningrad" system, while the tougher task of designing a cheap - towed SAM system was given to Raspeltins KB-1, the successful designer of the S-25 Berkut (SA-1).

The "75" design called for a SAM system of 29km range, and 20km altitude.

During 1954 it become clear, that the new 6cm wavelength microwave parts of the planned S-75 system has severe delays of production.
A crash parallel design is started using the old 10cm wavelength ("A" band in Russian) parts of the S-25 Berkut (SA-1) system. This design was called SA-75 Dvina.

In December of 1957, the first 10cm wavelength SA-75 Dvina (SA-2A) system was fielded in the Soviet Union...

... with the V-750 1D (Guideline mod.0) missile.



From the same year, the CIA's U-2 spy-plane started its regular flights over the Soviet Union at 22~23km height, only few thousand meters above the maximum altitude of the SA-75 Dvina system.
banghead

A second crash course started, to increase the effective altitude of the V-750 (Guideline mod.0) missile.
The thrust of the second stage was increased from 2.6 to 3.1 tonne, and the new V-750V 11D (Guideline mod.1) was fielded in 1958, with 27km altitude capability.


Further optimization of the SA-75 Dvina (SA-2A) leaded the reducing of the number of the towed vans from 5 to 3.
This system was called SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B).

The definitive version of the "75" design, the 6cm wavelength ("N" band in Russia) S-75 Desna (SA-2C) was fielded in 1959, with the V-750VN 13D (Guideline mod.3) missile.

As the definitive "N" version become available, the export of the "A" band system begun to the WarPact countries, receiving the SA-75M (SA-2B) version, with the V-750V 11D (Guideline mod.2) missiles.

In 1961, the next definitive version, the S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) was fielded with the...

... V-755 20D (Guideline mod.3) missiles.


In 1964, the nuclear tipped V-760 15D (Guideline mod.3) missile followed.

In the same year, the export of the S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) system begun to the WarPact countries, while the other friendly countries started to receive the SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2B) systems ('65 Egypt, '65 Vietnam, '68 Syria).

In 1971, the most advanced V-755 5Ya23 (Guideline mod.5) missile was fielded with the Volhov system.



During the Vietnam war, the SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2B) system was upgraded, to counter US tactics.
This system was named SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2F), Your new friend!
thumbsup


In 1979, all the further development on the "75" system was immediately stopped, because the S-300PT (SA-10A) was ready to be fielded.
All the ready upgrades&advances were incorporated to the S-75M3-OP Volhov (SA-2E) [export] system, that You know already.
thumbsup

Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/14/11 07:00 PM

Hpasp, I have few questions:
1- Did Vietnam ever received SA-2E system? They received it during Vietnam War?
2- Why russian designation for SA-2E and SA-2B are the same (S-75M)?

Thank you! I'm looking foward this new update.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/14/11 07:56 PM

1- Did Vietnam ever received SA-2E system? They received it during Vietnam War?

No.
The 6cm wavelength S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) was available for the WarPact only.
The 10cm wavelength SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B/F) was available for other friendly countries. (Vietnam, Egypt, Syria, etc...)

2- Why russian designation for SA-2E and SA-2B are the same (S-75M)?

The designation is not the same.
nope

SA-75M Dvina [please remember, that the "A" means the "A" band - 10cm wavelength] (SA-2B/F)
S-75M Volhov [definitive version without the "A"] (SA-2E)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/14/11 08:01 PM

So to cut it short...

10cm wavelength "export" version using S-25 Berkut (SA-1) parts:
SA-75 Dvina (SA-2A)
SA-75M or SA-75MK* Dvina (SA-2B)
SA-75M or SA-75MK* Dvina upgraded during the Vietnam War (SA-2F)

6cm wavelength "WarPact" definitive version:
S-75 Desna (SA-2C)
S-75M Volhov (SA-2E)

*SA-75M Dvina was the WarPact version in the beginning of the 60's...
when the Volhov become available for the WarPact, the Dvina export started to the 3rd world countries.
This version was called SA-75MK Dvina, to be able to differentiate.

So Warpact, for example Hungarian used SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B/F), while Vietnam used SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2B/F).
They had only very minor differences.
Posted By: arkhangelsk

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/15/11 07:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
And will terrain shadowing be modeled along with this? Seems so but still...?

Yeah!

During 1959, the locations of the SA-75/SA-75M Dvina (SA-2A/B) units in Hungary were selected against medium-high altitude targets.

Twenty years later, during the planned re-organization / re-equipping to S-75M/S-125M/S-200VE/S-300PMU (SA-2E/SA-3B/SA-5B/SA-10B) the locations were re-selected to be able to fight against low altitude targets...
... just the money went out (at the end of the Cold War), and some units were stayed in legacy positions (bottom of valleys), so they had short visibility range for low targets.

grunt


Will the search radar also show ground returns or only the fire control radar?
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/15/11 10:41 AM

There was also export of SA-2E to non-Warsaw Pact countries but much later - Vietnam received SA-2E only in 1980s.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/16/11 09:18 AM

Will the search radar also show ground returns or only the fire control radar?

Usually the operation of target acquisition radars are similarly complex as fire control radars.
In the SAM Simulator I focus rather on the operation of the fire control radars.

Currently the target acquisition radars in the SIM are simplified, and (as their operation is 2~3 full time job) and I have no intention to get deeper in that field.
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/16/11 09:30 AM

Hpasp, did Hungary operated early SA-75 ie. the 5 van version?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/16/11 12:18 PM

Weapon exports were always part of economical and political decisions.
Usual Soviet method was that...
current generation is fielded by the Soviet Union only
1 generation older equipment than current is exported to WarPact
2 generation older equipment than current is exported to other friendly countries
3 generation older equipment than current is exported to anybody interested

The same can be seen in the field of SAM's.

The SA-75 Dvina (SA-2A/B) was fielded in 1957 in the Soviet Union.
In 1959, when the S-75 Desna (SA-2C) fielding started, the export of the SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B) started to the following countries...
China, Albania, Bulgaria, Hungary, GDR, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia.

In 1961, when the S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) fielding started, the export of the SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B) started to the following countries...
Indonesia, Iraq, N.Korea, Yugoslavia, India, Cuba.

Few years later the following countries also received it...
Algeria, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Egypt, Cyprus, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/16/11 12:42 PM

Hpasp, did Hungary operated early SA-75 ie. the 5 van version?

Yes, from the 75 system, we had the "5 van", "3 van", "doghouse", "noodle drainer", "flat", and the "Karat" version.
dizzy

5 van - SA-75 Dvina (SA-2A)
3 van - SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B)
doghouse - SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F)
noodle drainer - S-75M2 Volhov (SA-2E)
flat - S-75M3 Volhov (SA-2E)
Karat - S-75M3-OP Volhov (SA-2E)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/16/11 02:56 PM

I received this book today...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/F-105-Wild-Weasel-Sa-2-Guideline/dp/1849084718



It has so stupid mistakes...
duh
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/16/11 04:55 PM

Thanks
Equipping with SAMs was not uniform in Warsaw Pact - Czechoslovakia had SA-75M (3 van, SA-2B - these were then gradually modified to something like SA-2F), S-75M (these were also modernized during 70s and 80s) and S-75M3.

btw:
I am pretty sure that amount of informations provided by your SAM Simulator isn't surpassed anywhere in the internet.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/16/11 05:52 PM

Czechoslovakia spent much more on weapons than Hungary. (It was much more closer to NATO)

According to Soviet export data...

In 1959 both country imported 1 SA-75 Dvina (SA-2A) "five van", and one SA-75 Dvina training complex.
Between 1960 and 1963 the SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B) "three van" systems were imported, 16pcs by Czechoslovakia, 13pcs by Hungary.
Between 1963 and 1976, only Czechoslovakia imported 13pcs S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) systems, Hungary bought none.
Between 1977 and 1985, Hungary received 12pcs S-75M Volhov (SA-2E), while Czechoslovakia got further 5 pcs.

S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) system had 6 sub versions...
S-75M, S-75M1, S-75M2, S-75M3, S-75M4, S-75M3-OP
... all sets were upgraded into the latest upgrade version during 5 years maintenance.

This is why you can find so many screws on the FCO's panel, those switches were incorporated during a later upgrade...
thumbsup

The Volhov system in the SAM SIM was imported in 1977 as an S-75M2 Volhov (SA-2E), and was upgraded to the S-75M3-OP standard during 5 years maintenance.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/16/11 06:41 PM

I am pretty sure that amount of informations provided by your SAM Simulator isn't surpassed anywhere in the internet.

Just scratching the surface...
... an above mentioned book from "Osprey" says confidently in 2011, that "Fang Song had two functions - target acquisition of up to six targets"
banghead

Heck, WarPact had to wait till 1988 to receive a system capable of doing that....
duh
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/16/11 08:00 PM

how many targets the Fang Song can acquire at the same time?
Is this information on SAM Simulator manual (i don't remember seing this).
Posted By: Wolfhound

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/17/11 03:46 AM

As for favourite SAM systems for SAMSIM, I'd have to go for the Antey 2500/S-300VM, now thats a serious system.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/17/11 04:51 AM

how many targets the Fang Song can acquire at the same time?
Is this information on SAM Simulator manual (i don't remember seing this).


At "Engagement Zone" paragraph...
The S-75M3-OP has one target and three missile channels, meaning that it can track one target, and guide three missiles onto it
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/17/11 02:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
how many targets the Fan Song can acquire at the same time?
Is this information on SAM Simulator manual (i don't remember seing this).


At "Engagement Zone" paragraph...
The S-75M3-OP has one target and three missile channels, meaning that it can track one target, and guide three missiles onto it


Yes, i know. I think we had a misunderstanding, so. I thought that "acquire" meant "follow, see", not "engage".
I thought that track = engage step, and acquire= follow step.

well, reformulating the question ... How many targets Fan Song can follow (see) at the same time?

TY
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/17/11 05:16 PM

Yes, i know. I think we had a misunderstanding, so. I thought that "acquire" meant "follow, see", not "engage".
I thought that track = engage step, and acquire= follow step.

well, reformulating the question ... How many targets Fan Song can follow (see) at the same time?


The "75" as an analogue system can display any number of targets.

No point to count those on the screen...

There is no limit on how many targets can be acquired.
The only limit is on target tracking, and that is one.
thumbsup
Posted By: DDG167

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/17/11 05:52 PM

-How many targets Fan Song can follow (see) at the same time?

...If you mean "see",Just as many as the targets in the beam.

*****************************
Hello,Hpasp.I have another question...China got 5 SA-75 between 1958-1959,do you know they are"5 van"or"3 van"?
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/17/11 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

There is no limit on how many targets can be acquired.
The only limit is on target tracking, and that is one.
thumbsup
Then i must say: Internet is full of crap! yep

And all that time they were putting B.S in my head... Not anymore, i tell you!

TY Hpasp!!!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/18/11 12:16 PM

Then i must say: Internet is full of crap! yep

The problem is that Internet sites are just copying the same mistakes to another several sites, until everybody believes in it...
nope

And all that time they were putting B.S in my head... Not anymore, i tell you!

You as a SAM Simulator user should be more knowledgeable in this topic, than most of the others! (especially Osprey expert writers)
(Except than if they were actual FCO's...
... but than, they would not argue with you)
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/18/11 12:21 PM

As for favourite SAM systems for SAMSIM, I'd have to go for the Antey 2500/S-300VM, now thats a serious system.

Yeah, it was so serious, that eventually nobody could got it outside of the Soviet Union...
yep
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/18/11 12:28 PM

Hello,Hpasp.I have another question...China got 5 SA-75 between 1958-1959,do you know they are"5 van"or"3 van"?

Warpact started to receive the "3 van" SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B) version in 1960.
I would bet that the 3 live and 1 trainer system shipped in 1958, and the 2 systems shipped in 1959 were SA-75 Dvina (SA-2A) "5 van" versions.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/19/11 04:52 PM

SAM Simulator update on the progress of development...

Currently the Digital Elevation Mesh implementation is ongoing, to simulate realistic ground clutter.

Volhov: 95% ready, only fine tuning and testing is ongoing.
Neva: 80% ready, some code writing, and testing is ongoing.
KRUG: 5% ready, preparation for the code writing is started.

Neva indicator using SDC (Moving Target Indicator) - Doppler Impulse mode.


cowboy
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/19/11 08:09 PM


Excellent ! winner
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/20/11 07:31 AM

The Kub’s (SA-6) 1S91’s (radar) working stations are displayed and described here:

http://www.flak11.de/2K12-Start.htm

You should enter “1S91” and then “Innenansichten” titles at the left menu.

The working positions inside the launcher vehicle: “2P25” and then “Innenansichten”.
Posted By: Wolfhound

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/20/11 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
As for favourite SAM systems for SAMSIM, I'd have to go for the Antey 2500/S-300VM, now thats a serious system.

Yeah, it was so serious, that eventually nobody could got it outside of the Soviet Union...
yep

hahaha Is it just too expensive a system?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/20/11 07:44 PM

Is it just too expensive a system?

I have no knowledge of any WarPact country planned to field it, till the end of the Cold War.

At the Army level...

Strela-2 was to be succeeded by Igla
KRUG with BUK
Shilka with Tunguska
Strela-1 with Strela-10
KUB and OSA with TOR

At the PVO...

Volhov and Neva was planned to be supplemented with S-300PMU
Vega was planned in bigger numbers

No plans for S-300V.
(It was big guy toys only...)

Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/21/11 11:06 AM

Is it just too expensive a system?

I don't think that S-300V was allowed for export before collapse of the USSR.

Btw. in Czechoslovakia:
Front (group of armies) - KRUG brigade (no replacement in plans for 1990s before velvet revolution)
Army - KUB regiment (planned to be replaced with BUK brigade in one army)
Division - KUB, OSA, 57mm guns (57mm guns in one division planned to be replaced with TOR - most of divisions had just 57mm AAG)
Regiment - Strela-1, Strela-10, 30mm PLDvK-53/59 (most of divisions had just PLDvK-53/59, planned to be replaced by STROP II new 30mm AAG in development)
Battalion - Strela-2 (planned to be replaced by Igla)
Posted By: Wolfhound

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/21/11 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Is it just too expensive a system?

I have no knowledge of any WarPact country planned to field it, till the end of the Cold War.

At the Army level...

Strela-2 was to be succeeded by Igla
KRUG with BUK
Shilka with Tunguska
Strela-1 with Strela-10
KUB and OSA with TOR

At the PVO...

Volhov and Neva was planned to be supplemented with S-300PMU
Vega was planned in bigger numbers

No plans for S-300V.
(It was big guy toys only...)



Apparently the Russian army should be receiving a more advanced S-300V4 sometime this year?

EDIT *** I just realised that the S-300V4 hasn't actually been defined, as in the components (radar and missiles) that will make up the system, despite the use of the 'V' designation. So it may be based on the S-300 rather than the S-300V *** EDIT
Posted By: Cat

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/22/11 01:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
how many targets the Fan Song can acquire at the same time?
Is this information on SAM Simulator manual (i don't remember seing this).


At "Engagement Zone" paragraph...
The S-75M3-OP has one target and three missile channels, meaning that it can track one target, and guide three missiles onto it


Yes, i know. I think we had a misunderstanding, so. I thought that "acquire" meant "follow, see", not "engage".
I thought that track = engage step, and acquire= follow step.

well, reformulating the question ... How many targets Fan Song can follow (see) at the same time?

TY


This question is asking about a 1960s Russian ground radar with terms and concepts derived from operating simulated post-1970s U.S. and NATO air radars that are common in modern combat flight simulations. This is causing a little confusion, since we see very little of Russian systems (the Lock On series being the only exception I'm familiar with) and their concepts and operations are very different than Western practice.

The poster wants to know whether the S-75 systems were capable of modes equivalent to the West's track-while-scan mode, and the answer is "no." Even Russian air radars weren't capable of two-target TWS until the late 1980s. The air-search P-18 we are seeing in SAM Simulator is a generic version, showing a generic range-while-scan of multiple targets and allowing us to pass info to the very detailed fire-control radar. It does not designate specific targets of interest; rather, it gives bearing and height info so we can swing the cab of the fire control radar to the proper location. The fire control set, being analog with Doppler functions, can SEE all, but it can only LOCK and TRACK a single target. It doesn't have a TWS type mode that would enable it to designate multiple targets, maintain altitude and heading information on them, and then vector missiles onto those multiple targets, either. In air parlance, you go from wide-scale RWS directly to STT, similarly to guidance for the Sparrow in games like Lock On: Flaming Cliffs.

Helpful at all? smile

Miao, Cat
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/22/11 05:05 PM

The question is getting more complex as we deep down...
yep

The first Soviet SAM system, that was deployed in fixed sites around Moscow, the S-25 Berkut (SA-1 Guild) was a true multichannel system.
One battery could scan a fixed sector, track 20 targets in it, and guide one missile per target (altogether 20) parallel.

The second system, that was to be deployed around Leningrad, the S-50 Dal (SA-5 Griffon) was also planned to be a true multichannel system.
Each battery could scan 360deg sector, track 10 targets, and guide one missile per target (altogether 10) parallel.
As we know, they run into serious trouble designing the self guiding active head of the 5V11 missile, and the project failed.

From this point, till 1979, the introduction of the S-300PT Birusa (SA-10A Grumble) system there were no Soviet multichannel* systems.

The S-300PS Volhov M6 (SA-10B Grumble) can track 6 targets, and guide two missiles per target (altogether 12) parallel.

*In a sense, the SA-5A/B/C Gammon system is multichannel, as one site has 2~5 single channel fire control radar, so one site can track 2~5 target and launch six missile per target (altogether 12~30) parallel.
cowboy
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/22/11 10:15 PM

It was very helpful, Cat.
But my question was exactly the same that Hpasp replied. In many web articles i read stuff like: "SA-X was able to track up to Y targets..."
By that, we can suppose that the author meant that the system was able to see as many as Y targets. So it's a lie. It's also a lie if he's talking about a TWS method...

But thanks, your reply was very informative about the TWS history in soviet/russian systems, and the complementation given by Hpasp made all the information perfect.

TY
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/23/11 03:08 PM

Real life S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B) shot...



...and the SAM Simulator


"Realistic to the Switch"
thumbsup
Posted By: Sim

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/24/11 06:32 PM

Flightly off topic.
S300 failure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRHK8dvbwWA&feature=player_embedded


This thing has a very long burning motor.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/24/11 06:47 PM

This thing has a very long burning motor.

It was a faulty one, it should not burn more than 12s, and exceeding Mach6.
(Just check the first one.)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 05/29/11 09:09 AM

New tutorial videos are available from Matthew Barry, describing the shooting of Jamming targets with the 2K11 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) system.
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
wave
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/01/11 01:24 AM

Strela, Tunguska, TOR - many photos:
http://twower.livejournal.com/555316.html
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/02/11 07:58 PM

Familiar fire control radars at the Fleet...
wave



Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/08/11 11:19 AM

SAM Simulator June update on the progress of development...

Currently the Digital Elevation Mesh implementation is ongoing, to simulate realistic ground clutter.

Volhov: 100% ready, only the translation of the "V2" documentation is ongoing.
Neva: 100% ready, only the translation of the "V2" documentation is ongoing.
KRUG: 20% ready, code writing is ongoing.

As two systems are ready, I will release the new version (with or without the KRUG-SDC) before my summer holiday, probably in July.
thumbsup

Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/08/11 08:17 PM

Nice. Thanks.
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/09/11 06:15 AM

S-75 "memorial" in my town.



Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/09/11 10:59 AM

Nice, it seems to be a Dvina or Desna V-750V/VN missile to me.
I assume that this "weight model" is from a unit that was located beside Your city...
smile
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/09/11 01:21 PM

None. Near my city never had the positions of S-75. That why i put "memorial" in quotes.

This missile is located in a park among other weapons of the 50-60's(T-55, BTR-70, L-29).
It's park called "Victory Park". And It means "victory in WW2"!
But that is absurd. This park is absurd. Stupidity of the local authorities.
But I'm grateful them for the missile =)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/09/11 01:42 PM

None. Near my city never had the positions of S-75.

I would be surprised.
Most of the cities in Ex Soviet Union had...
Posted By: Merges

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/09/11 05:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Amidkor
This park is absurd. Stupidity of the local authorities.

God bless your local authorities! In my location the same park is just wiped out. There are no tanks, SPGs, cannons, APCs, MLRs etc anymore. There is a parking place instead. So be happy you can show all this things to you children live, not on youtube. $-)
Posted By: arkhangelsk

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/10/11 03:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Amidkor
None. Near my city never had the positions of S-75. That why i put "memorial" in quotes.

This missile is located in a park among other weapons of the 50-60's(T-55, BTR-70, L-29).
It's park called "Victory Park". And It means "victory in WW2"!
But that is absurd. This park is absurd. Stupidity of the local authorities.
But I'm grateful them for the missile =)


Allow me to join the side that says "Good for your authorities!" It is fun, and it is part of history. Why do you not like the idea?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/10/11 09:19 AM

Air Defense Museum in Zsámbék, Hungary



Military Museum in Kecel, Hungary



Most of the photo shots of the SAM Simulator were made at these sites...
thumbsup

If You ever come to Hungary, and have a free day, just drop me a mail...
yep
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/10/11 11:28 AM

Will certainly do, with a lot of pleasure!

By the way, do you plan to have, or already have, the Akkord station in Zsambek? If only you succeed to get that and another RSN-75 or SNR-125 working (not necessarily transmitting), a really enjoyable game could be played... and still "off the air", which, I suppose, would be a big advantage (or the only way to make it legal) in todays dense radio environment smile

For those who don't know: Akkord was a mobile simulating device (dimensions of just one trailer smile ) which could be plug into the battery's network to simulate up to six "targets" simultaneously on radar screens. The Akkord crew could steer the "targets" at real time (including active and passive jamming, evasive high g maneuvers, etc.). The "bad-guys-trailer" was a very appreciated aid in the S-75 and S-125 day-to-day training.
Posted By: Merges

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/10/11 12:38 PM


Relics of the open air military museum as transferred to the backyard of the Officer's House. Kisinyov, Moldova. yep
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/11/11 01:57 PM

S-300 videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkBEHoJpSe4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcyCANwAZOQ&feature=player_embedded#at=309
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/17/11 08:34 AM

Hello,
I've been playing the SAM sim for some time, getting the hang of it.
I managed to shoot down a B-52 in the Vietnam scenario.
Is there any way to distinguish between targets (on the P-18 screen, for example).
I would like to know what I'm shooting at, if it's a B-52 or another type of aircraft.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/17/11 01:34 PM

Is there any way to distinguish between targets (on the P-18 screen, for example).
I would like to know what I'm shooting at, if it's a B-52 or another type of aircraft.


Your options for non cooperating target recognition is pretty limited.
nope

In theory, comparing the plotting board to the P18 image is according to the book.
(Target type "8" on the plotting board is B52, "3" everybody else)

Another way is using our EW knowledge, due to physics, jamming metric wavelength radar is pretty space consuming.
(In short, only B52, or specialized EW aircraft could jam it. Fighters cannot.)
yep
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/17/11 02:07 PM

Thanks for the interesting remarks.
I'd say the targets are non cooperating, some of them even fired Shrikes at me!
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/17/11 05:10 PM

I tried to shoot down an RS-2US practice target in Ustka and it seems that the first target, 1101 just stays on the ground (speed 0, altitude 0). I'm also not sure if everything's ok with 1102, the speed readout could be wrong as well.
A bug? Does anybody have a similar problem?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/17/11 05:39 PM

1101 is a Polish warship, safeguarding the firing range.

1102 is a MiG-21 (Fishbed) fighter, that first fly a parallel path than turns on the SAM battery.
At about 25~30km range, it launches an RS-2US (AA-1 Alkali) short range Air-to-Air missile towards us.

To safeguard the MiG, the missiles has self destruct timers, that blows up over 20km range.

Good Polish article about Ustka:
http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/poligony.html#poligon02
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/17/11 05:57 PM

Thanks Hpasp, for the explanation and the link!
Maybe it would be useful to add a short briefing to the scenario to avoid confusion in the future?
Posted By: wasserfall

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/18/11 06:15 AM

Nice! Now i know what was that UFO LOL
Can't wait for the next version and the Vietnamese Dvina. I never quite got a hang of the SA-5, it feels like operating a nuclear reactor (and i have played nuclear reactor sims...) No question that it's a system that requires elite operators. Personally i can't wait until you include the Kub (not Buk), after all it is long compromised. But i'm sure you have enough work for now, thanks again for the amazing free game.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/18/11 07:28 AM

You played a nuclear reactor sim? And I used to think that air traffic control sims were hardcore... smile

As regards the SA-5, it helps if you print the manual and select a big, slow, fat plane as your target.
Of course it takes more to master the system, but at least you can shoot down something.
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/18/11 11:56 AM

Videos, videos, videos... S-75 Vietnam and polygon, C-300 polygons. Excuse me, but all in Russian.

http://rutube.ru/tracks/1889976.html?v=6b7d316cbdabd19f7dc16d8de0082573
http://rutube.ru/tracks/3865942.html?v=23bae6b7e0a2655c1b43a4861191fc1a
http://rutube.ru/tracks/1649431.html?v=90f8edf65dd939bfaad41fd5cda7b327
http://rutube.ru/tracks/4310405.html?v=c1f2f08c5f7ac3982e70fcbcffaad25d
http://rutube.ru/tracks/3391099.html?v=fdc7bbf90704cbaee5f1cf350bcc4ce9
http://rutube.ru/tracks/3389731.html?v=8d75b4db56c7f0d179881f064110902a
http://rutube.ru/tracks/2033732.html?v=480b3665a6a2387c920c6cc1777a31b1

"Dance with death". A Russian documentary film about the S-75 in Vietnam (though not all the shots from there).
http://rutube.ru/tracks/1514288.html?v=3629b40684086bfccda7963776b9092a
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/18/11 01:57 PM

KRUG (SA-4B) IPP indicator with ground clutter...

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/18/11 02:16 PM

Very nice videos, now everybody can imagine the outside of the SAM Simulator cabin...
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/18/11 02:21 PM

Nice work Hpasp, I will surely buy... err download the next version! smile
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/18/11 04:44 PM

KRUG (SA-4B) range indicator with ground clutter...
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/19/11 08:16 AM

Some SA-2 photos taken at the musem in Kolobrzeg, in 2008.







Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/19/11 01:37 PM

Question of the week...
... what is the type of missile on the launcher?
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/19/11 03:09 PM

SAM Simulator Version: 0.922 will be released end of next week.

Including NASA digital terrain model (90m horizontal resolution), to simulate realistic ground clutter.
Expanded documentation.
Adding the possibility to select between more missile types for a system.
These missiles will fly within 1% of real firing range data.
V-755 20DSU and V-759 5Ya23 for the Volhov.
V-601P 5V27U and V-601PD 5V27D for the Neva.
Will support any Monitor resolution at or above 1280x1024.

thumbsup


Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/19/11 05:25 PM

Great, looking forward to the new version!
Posted By: wasserfall

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/19/11 06:54 PM

Quote:
Air Traffic sims

I've never tried that, but i would sure like to mod one into a (finally civilian-playable) Ground-Control-Intercept game, because it's more fun to shoot them down. I'll try printing the manual though.

For the nuke sim: acme-nuclear.com
Downloaded in the Fukushima aftermath lol

@ New Version
Now that is going to be some new challenge! Can't wait to download!
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/19/11 07:44 PM

@ Wasserfall
Thanks for the link.
As regards ATC sims, you can try giving pilots false instructions to make them crash into the ground smile

With the SA-5, first try the IADS-assisted acquisition (page 20), then move to page 43 - just for starters.
Have fun! smile
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/19/11 08:58 PM

This one in Kolobrzeg... 20D / 20DSU?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/20/11 09:02 AM

This one in Kolobrzeg... 20D / 20DSU?

Correct.
It is a V-755 20D (Guideline Mod.3), probably weight model.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/21/11 07:49 AM

How to check the accuracy of the new Digital Terrain Model, in the new SAM Simulator Version 0.922.

(It has better than 90m horizontal accuracy, utilizing the NASA SRTM data)

Step 1, Using Google Earth, find the most famous S-125M Neva (SA-3B Goa) site in History.
(bit North-West from Belgrade)


Step 2, Using Google Earth's Street View feature, look around, and find the "Avala" Mountain.
(This is where the Serbian air defense HQ was located in 1999)


Step 3, Remember, that it is at 119 degrees, and a bit over 40km in distance.

Step 4, Select different SAM systems, in the OAF situation, and locate the "Avala" Mountain.






Step 5, Find other historic landmarks, "Thud Ridge", "Pyramids", etc...

thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/24/11 03:47 AM

Hi
this
buton is for what? how to use it? ... Please (it's in S-125)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/24/11 05:57 AM

Hi,

Operating frequency switch, of the SNR.

It has 3 settings.
down - Lambda-I, frequency no.1 (It is the default [peacetime] setting, the cover used to be sealed.)
middle - Lambda-II, frequency no.2 (It is the wartime setting, can be switched only when the seal is broken.)
up - AVT., automatic frequency change between no.1 and no.2, in random time, to confuse jammers.

At the right side of the desk, there is two green lamps, indicating the current frequency.

Br,
Hpasp
Posted By: JWNoctis

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/24/11 06:18 AM

Early attempts at being frequency-agile...Sounds good!

Speaking of fire-control radars, how logistically difficult would it be to repair or replace the radar component of a SAM site after being suppressed by enemy anti-radiation missile, in theory? Those radars are complex...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/24/11 11:18 AM

Speaking of fire-control radars, how logistically difficult would it be to repair or replace the radar component of a SAM site after being suppressed by enemy anti-radiation missile, in theory? Those radars are complex...

I'm not so good at theory yep , so let's speak about real history.
During 1999, NATO faced its most expert enemy so far, the Serbian Air defense.

Belgrade was defended by the 250th Air Defense Brigade, equipped by 8pcs of S-125M Neva (SA-3B) SAM battery.

From the 208pcs HARM missile launched during Operation Allied Force against SA-3's, only 5.3% (11) arrived.
During 2.9% (6) hits, the SNR were repairable within 12 days.
During 2.4% (5) hits, the SNR was destroyed.

Of course, the Serbians were experts in their business...




In the future, I plan to include those real historical situations into the SAM Simulator.
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/24/11 12:06 PM

SAM Simulator V.922 released

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

v0.922 (06.24.2011)
Include NASA digital terrain model (90m horizontal resolution), to simulate realistic earth clutter
Expanded documentation.
Add the possibility to select between more missile types for a system.
These missiles will fly within 1% of real firing range data.
V-755 20DSU and V-759 5Ya23 for the Volhov.
V-601P 5V27U and V-601PD 5V27D for the Neva.
Will support any Monitor resolution at or above 1280x1024.

yeah
Posted By: JWNoctis

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/24/11 01:57 PM

That's something impressive! smile

Hooray!
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/24/11 02:14 PM

Thank's for answer Hpasp.

Interested for French & Arabic Language traduction (translation)? (for free of cores partything)

and thanks for released

Sgt.Kairo
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/24/11 02:48 PM

SA-3B_Russian.pdf - It's not "V2" =(
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/24/11 03:49 PM

Corrected, Russian and Japanese V2 documentation is added.
notworthy
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/24/11 08:47 PM

Documentation version 110627 is also released.

It contains Russian/Chinese/Japanese translation of the expanded (Version2) documentation...

thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/25/11 12:46 AM

Hi

i don't now why, but the missile are very slow in this last release V.922 (may be only on my computer /P4/3.2Gh/750Mb-Ram),

in V.922, be-twin 5Km to 15Km (10Km) it take 36s for the 5V27U and more than 37s for the 5V27D

But in V.921, for the same range it take 20s (only!)

reading - speed corrected in this release ?, or slow & old P4/3.2Gh ?,

what do you think Hpasp?

PS: i have just test SA3B-GOA goodnight

Sgt.Kairo
Posted By: JWNoctis

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/25/11 06:06 AM

Haven't tried the S-125M1 yet...but the speed of the 5Ya23(S-75M3) is indeed lower in this version in average, around 400m/s to 700m/s from the readout on-screen depending on time of flight, target altitude, and probably a lot of other factors...as far as I can tell. Definitely some major change in the flight model, I'd say. smile

It's also more difficult shooting at low altitude target with the S-75M3 now even with SDC, 2 of the 3 20DSU's I shot at a simulated A-4 at around 1000m AGL missed, although the one that hit scored a kill. Those ground clutters are great fun!

...And it certainly wouldn't be very healthy getting illuminated by that multiple-hundreds-of-kilowatt microwave beam, even at 20+ km range. wink
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/25/11 06:57 AM

Missile behavior is vastly improved in this version.
Now they are flying according to actual firing range data.
wave

5Ya23...

Max speed and overload capability (depending on target altitude):
at 300m altitude, 785m/s (Mach2.6), 6~7g
at 10km altitude, 910m/s (Mach3), 7~9g
at 25km altitude, 1125m/s (Mach3.7), 3~3.3g
at 30km altitude, 1230m/s (Mach4), 2.1~2.4g
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 02:55 AM

tomcat

i'm going to test 5V27d/U speed by my self !
if i return safe = 5V27d/u speed fail.
else lawncareby20mm

Sgt.Kairo (now pilot)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 09:28 AM

V-601P speed/distance/flight time vs elevation angle.
thumbsup

Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 03:02 PM

Hi !

pilot
Ready for report Sir!

"
20:32 27th of March 1999
Third Night of the Operation Allied Force raid against Serbia.

Targets:
Beograd - 4 flight of F-117A Stealth

S-125M1 Neva


42:08, V601PD 5V27D Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 15km
Target azimuth: 245°
Target elevation: 31°
Target altitude: 7,9km
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


42:15, V601PD 5V27D Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 15km
Target azimuth: 247°
Target elevation: 31°
Target altitude: 7,9km
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


43:16, Missile exploded on Channel-1
F-117A Vega-31 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 18m)

43:23, Missile exploded on Channel-2
F-117A Vega-31 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 16m)

44:01, V601PD 5V27D Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 14km
Target azimuth: 274°
Target elevation: 30°
Target altitude: 7,3km
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


45:03, Missile exploded on Channel-2
F-117A Vega-31 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 9m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 4sec
"

Col. Zoltan Dani shoot me down ( me in-F117)
Now i'm Wounded
The speed test of 5V27d/U is thumbsup
I notworthy


- What about French & Arabic translation? just send me English original documents (PDF, Doc) not locked.
i will banghead my head dizzy to do it ! reading

Sgt.Kairo
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 03:58 PM

43:16, Missile exploded on Channel-1
F-117A Vega-31 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 18m)


http://youtu.be/_QY9mDe5fbY





- What about French & Arabic translation? just send me English original documents (PDF, Doc) not locked.

No problem, just drop me your Email.

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 04:55 PM

At 1:40 you can see the P-18 metric wavelength target acquisition radar, that played key part.
I was honored to spend two days with Col. Zoltan Dani (who is an ethnic Hungarian) and had very interesting discussions.
thumbsup


I'm at the right side of the picture, holding a piece of the downed F-117A.
At the left side, history's most famous Neva battery commander.
yep
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 04:57 PM

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 4sec

According to Col. Zoltan Dani, if you are On Air more than 20seconds, you are dead...
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 05:02 PM


Very honoured to meet you Greet man, & greet work, even for Col.Zaltan.

simple email: kairotdf@gmail.com


Sgt.Kairo
Posted By: jazjar

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 05:10 PM

Hello, I have a few questions about some scenarios and other things regarding this wonderful sim.
1. What was "Operation Giant Reach"? I can find nothing on Google or anything else about it.
2. What was "Operation Prairie Fire"? I can find nothing about this either.
3. How do you shoot down the SR-71 in Hanoi Linebacker 2 scenarios with the SA-2! I can't seem to get a missile anywhere near those aircraft!
Thanks!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 05:29 PM

1. What was "Operation Giant Reach"? I can find nothing on Google or anything else about it.

Operation Giant Reach was SAC's codename for European-based SR-71 reconnaissance gathering missions, during the Cold War.

2. What was "Operation Prairie Fire"? I can find nothing about this either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Prairie_Fire

3. How do you shoot down the SR-71 in Hanoi Linebacker 2 scenarios with the SA-2! I can't seem to get a missile anywhere near those aircraft!

A tutorial YouTube video can be found at the bottom of the SAMSIM homepage.
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
It was created by one of the best real SAM battery commanders, I ever met.
thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 05:31 PM

According to Col. Zoltan Dani, if you are On Air more than 20seconds, you are dead...

Then we need other pointing system more efficient, or tracking mouse, ...

Hummm...... , i have an idea why not an other key's to use:

for exemple in Z screen :

I(+) - P(-) for Target Elevation
H(+) - J(-) for Target Range (Boresight)
L(+) - M(-) for Target Azimuth
if your Prog is with VB6, i' think it easy to add.

we will be always winner

what do you think Hpasp ? transformer (for next release?)

Sgt.Kairo

PS: Doc arrived, i star translation.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 05:35 PM

An easier number of instruments for a possible future version...

grunt
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 05:43 PM

Handy duckhunter Streela ??
Posted By: jazjar

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 07:47 PM

Thank you Hpsap for your excellent explanation of the first two questions, but I have time and time again watched the SR71 video and still cannot find the trick to getting hits with my SA2 missiles, I was wondering if you had any pointers or could explain the video in words?
Posted By: Sim

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/26/11 10:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
SAM Simulator V.922 released

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

v0.922 (06.24.2011)
Include NASA digital terrain model (90m horizontal resolution), to simulate realistic earth clutter
Expanded documentation.
Add the possibility to select between more missile types for a system.
These missiles will fly within 1% of real firing range data.
V-755 20DSU and V-759 5Ya23 for the Volhov.
V-601P 5V27U and V-601PD 5V27D for the Neva.
Will support any Monitor resolution at or above 1280x1024.

yeah


Still can't run this software. It think my resolution is smaller than what I have (1080P).
Posted By: jazjar

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/27/11 01:21 AM

You can still run it if it is smaller... You just have to right click, select "screen resolution," and adjust it to 1280 by 1024 if you have Windows 7 and

Most other windows versions
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/27/11 04:07 PM

Yeah, shooting down the SR-71 is a bit tricky. I only managed to damage it, the missile exploded more than 100 metres away from the target.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/27/11 05:40 PM

Here is some info about it:

13:45 19th of December, 1972.
SR-71 bomb damage assessment flight number one.

S-75M3 Volkhov


37:24, V-759 5Ya23 Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 91km
Target azimuth: 184°
Target elevation: 15°
Target altitude: 23,9km
SNR mode: LORO - 150km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


37:32, V-759 5Ya23 Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 86km
Target azimuth: 183°
Target elevation: 16°
Target altitude: 23,9km
SNR mode: LORO - 75km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


37:43, V-759 5Ya23 Missile launched on Channel-3
Target distance: 78km
Target azimuth: 182°
Target elevation: 17°
Target altitude: 23,9km
SNR mode: LORO - 75km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


38:36, Missile exploded on Channel-1
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 58m)

38:41, Missile exploded on Channel-2
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 48m)

38:47, Missile exploded on Channel-3
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 31m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 8sec
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/27/11 09:25 PM

Btw. This text is on US Air Force internet page: http://ipv6.af.mil/information/heritage/milestones.asp?dec=1990&sd=01/01/1990&ed=12/31/1999

Jun 9, 1999
Operation Allied Force ended. More than 800 SAMs were fired at NATO aircraft, but only one F-117 and one F-16 were downed. Another F-117 suffered minor damage from a SA-3 that exploded nearby and two A-10s were damaged by anti-aircraft artillery fire. During the campaign, 35,219 sorties were flown, 16,587 non-precision guided missiles and 6,728 precision guided missiles (23,315) were dropped

- ie. another F-117 hit by SA-3
Posted By: jazjar

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/27/11 10:40 PM

Hmm... I finally got a hit on the SR-71 in the Linebacker scenario. Seems the trick is to shoot early and switch to the I-87V mode ASAP as soon as you launch. my problem was that I was using the firing computations for the lead mode, not the T-T mode as I should have. Just my findings.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/28/11 04:13 PM

Jun 9, 1999
Operation Allied Force ended. More than 800 SAMs were fired at NATO aircraft, but only one F-117 and one F-16 were downed. Another F-117 suffered minor damage from a SA-3 that exploded nearby and two A-10s were damaged by anti-aircraft artillery fire. During the campaign, 35,219 sorties were flown, 16,587 non-precision guided missiles and 6,728 precision guided missiles (23,315) were dropped


Launched numbers of missiles are a bit exaggerated.
nope

250th Missile Brigade, defending Belgrade, formed by 8pcs S-125M Neva (SA-3B) battery, launched 54 V-601 (Goa) missile against 31 targets.
450th Missile Regiment, defending South Serbia, formed by 4pcs S-125M Neva (SA-3B) battery, launched 39 V-601 (Goa) missile against 19 targets.

They can prove that they downed 1 F-117A, 1 F16CG, and several unmanned drones.






They hit several other planes also, that were able to fly back to safety, or made emergency landing at nearby airports (for example at Sarajevo).


Most importantly, they were unable to prevent NATO of bombing any target of choice.


*This is not counting the KUB regiments.

I plan to include in the far future, several Operation Allied Force real event into the SAM Simulator.
(till than, you can practice the maximum 20seconds on air time yep )





thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/28/11 08:33 PM

Hi

New keyboard key to use in future?


Sgt.Kairo

Posted By: jazjar

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/29/11 02:09 AM

Hpsap, there are numerous switches in the SA-2, SA-3, and SA-4. Do these actually do anything that applies to the sim? If so, what do they do? Also, in the SA-5, there are two idnetical-looking panels/indicators above the speed officer's main screen and the Fire control officer's main screen. What do they do? (they are the ones that display the Lissajous curve during AS3 tracking)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/29/11 08:10 AM

New keyboard key to use in future?

Idea is noted.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/29/11 08:24 AM

Hpsap, there are numerous switches in the SA-2, SA-3, and SA-4. Do these actually do anything that applies to the sim?

Some of those yes, but not mentioned in the manual, due its size constrains.
(Within 50 pages, I tried to describe history, operations, etc.)

You can ask about those more specifically here.


Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/29/11 09:44 AM

Further missions from 1999 would be awesome. Anyway I citated that note about second F-117 damaged by S-125 because it is the first time I saw confirmation of this incident from US Air Force.
Posted By: jazjar

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/29/11 08:27 PM

My first question is about the mystery panels In the SA-5. They are the ones that appear above the speed officer's and the fire control officer's main panels and display the Lissajous curve during AS-3 tracking. Can you tell me their function?
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/30/11 12:53 AM

Hi !

Ho know which type of radar?

any idea Hpasp?
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/30/11 01:01 AM

It's just radiotransparent hood to protect from the weather.
Inside could be anything. Even the old system.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/30/11 02:26 AM

It's just radiotransparent hood to protect from the weather.
Inside could be anything. Even the old system.


Old system ? Hm ... wher is the old Van & Cables ?
i mean it so clean and clear, that seem as High-Tech one! no?
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/30/11 02:41 AM


SA-3 Site in use,


Then . . . empty,


and new Bunker's under construction,

who guess who is the future arrival?

d'nt ask me wher is this site! just guess new arrival!
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/30/11 05:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Old system ? Hm ... wher is the old Van & Cables ?
i mean it so clean and clear, that seem as High-Tech one! no?

This is a stationary position. Cables can be in underground tunnels and vans in concrete shelters.
Take a look at a stationary position C-75 in Egypt. (30 05 17 18 C. 31 47 03 04 B)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/30/11 11:45 AM

My bet is for a modern (probably) phased array EW radar.
There is a guy who is expert on this field.
http://geimint.blogspot.com/

In his forum, you probably could got answer.
http://www.makephpbb.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=geimint
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/30/11 11:51 AM

My first question is about the mystery panels In the SA-5. They are the ones that appear above the speed officer's and the fire control officer's main panels and display the Lissajous curve during AS-3 tracking. Can you tell me their function?

This display shows the received signal strength in Epsilon - Summa - Beta.

Both panels has the same image, but with different options.

On the KI-236V panel, it has an illuminated range scale for received signal strength (dB).
At the left side of this panel, there is a "Control" switch (not simulated) with options of self test with the K7 tower.

On the KI-234V panel, this display has no range scale, as there is a separate instrument for more precise received signal strength (dB) indication.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 06/30/11 01:04 PM

This is a stationary position. Cables can be in underground tunnels and vans in concrete shelters.
Take a look at a stationary position C-75 in Egypt. (30 05 17 18 C. 31 47 03 04 B)


this is an fire control radar, and no radio transparent hood to protect him from the weather.


it's standard position for this kind of fire control radar


even for this detection radar in the same site


may be other Spoon Radar type?
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/01/11 06:44 PM

PROBLEM WITH KRUG
I think there is problem in simulation of how KRUG manage centimeter wavelength noise jamming.

I understand that when I have target designated by 1S12M1 SOC radar, the jammed range information is transferred from 1S12M1 to KRUG engagement calculation so I don't need any manual updates of target range - this is how it seems to work in game now anyway.

Problem is that when jamming target is not designated by 1S12M1, its range is anyway always corrected so jamming has practically no effect. I think that this is BUG and when there is no designation from 1S12M1, range for jamming target should not be miraculously corrected.

Any answer?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/01/11 07:13 PM

PROBLEM WITH KRUG
I think there is problem in simulation of how KRUG manage centimeter wavelength noise jamming.
Problem is that when jamming target is not designated by 1S12M1, its range is anyway always corrected so jamming has practically no effect. I think that this is BUG and when there is no designation from 1S12M1, range for jamming target should not be miraculously corrected.


Lets dig deep, how it works cowboy

If it receives a cm wavelength jamming, it is constantly measuring the targets elevation angle.
Assuming that the target is not changing its altitude, similarly as the Volhov's I87V method, the target range can be continuously calculated depending its measured elevation.

When the target changes its altitude, (just remember, what was told to Weasel Crews) this method goes crazy...
thumbsup


Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/01/11 08:32 PM

If it receives a cm wavelength jamming, it is constantly measuring the targets elevation angle.
Assuming that the target is not changing its altitude, similarly as the Volhov's I87V method, the target range can be continuously calculated depending its measured elevation.


It measures target elevation angle but how it knows about range and altitude?
Example - I started in Asuluk and used simulated F-104 with cm jamming - I started to track it as jamming target (without use of 1S12M1) and I saw on Three Dimensional Indicator (Angle Officer’s K81-5A panel) dot of target position - correct one. Thus I don't need to manually input range (or altitude) data as is written in manual on page 48, point 9 - in fact I never need to use this.

If I use S-75 or S-125 I can not determine range (or altitude) without external input (board, P-15/18) but KRUG seems to be able to determine right range and altitude of jamming target automatically.

May be it is that way, I just want to understand.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/01/11 09:07 PM

It measures target elevation angle but how it knows about range and altitude?

It does not knows it.
When you push the PA (Manual Range Tracking) button, than the system calculates the target altitude by the current range gate, and the elevation measured.
From that moment, it continuously updates the target's range by the measured elevation change, assuming, that the target is flying the same altitude.

You can anytime change it.

Be aware, that the successful engagement is not requires exact target range, as the missile is flying 3T method.
The target distance, is only needed, to be able to decide, when to launch...
wave
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/01/11 10:05 PM

I played with that a little - purposely insert the most wrong range data in it (on K81-8). Range and altitude on K11-102M1 were really totally erroneous like 100km range and 25km altitude for radar reflector in Asuluk but still on K81-5A was this target nicely shown at range - and that is what I think is weird.

Btw. thank for your patience.


P.S.: To be clear what I mean - I have problem with K81-5A display because when I set manually range to that 100km for radar reflector, the DOT on display was in same place as when I set range to minimum (5km or so).
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/02/11 09:44 AM

Your remark is completely right.
This will be corrected in the next release.
thumbsup
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/02/11 11:49 AM

Thanks Hpasp.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/02/11 05:06 PM

Hi!
some think wrong in S-125 when shooting RM-217 Zvezda (B-1B),
There is big offset in target distance between P-19 radar and tracking Radar
and the missile go to extreme right (or left), in small distance from target (in end of tracking), and miss the target.. duckhunter
try it! Hpsp and see!

i forgot this: all target can't be locked under 50Km, why?and spoon radar is too slow comparing to last version 921, why?

may be it's because of my old computer ( deadhorse ) but old release 921 seems more normal, in speed, than this last release 922, i'm really confuse! some advise?
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/02/11 09:48 PM

Hallo
I try to answer some of your questions.

the missile go to extreme right (or left), in small distance from target (in end of tracking), and miss the target..
- simulated B-1B goes too high and too fast for S-125 - basically green control indicating that target is in missiles reach would not light up (manual page 34, point 3)

all target can't be locked under 50Km, why?
- that is maximum range for targer tracking (page 13)

spoon radar is too slow comparing to last version 921, why?
- with activated "digital elevation mesh" is demand on computer from game much higher

There is big offset in target distance between P-19 radar and tracking Radar
- may be because P-15/19 is in principle quite inaccurate - Hpasp needs to answer this

Regards
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/03/11 07:13 AM

Hi PN79!

....green control indicating that target is in missiles reach would not light up (manual page 34, point 3)
even it's not light, we can hit the target by launching at right time -extreme exactitude-

- that is maximum range for targer tracking (page 13)
that's right for distance, not for (beta) – azimuth, who we can lock it even 80Km,
in V.921 yes we can do that, but not in V.922!

- with activated "digital elevation mesh" is demand on computer from game much higher
yes, it's logic, i will try with "digital elevation" off!

- may be because P-15/19 is in principle quite inaccurate - Hpasp needs to answer this
at the end of tracking, P-15 indicate target less then 10Km, and in traking radar (indicators N1-N2), and target mark at the УК-31М1 indicator is more than 20km !

thank you for answer's PN79!

we wait more answer from the Master Hpasp!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/03/11 01:13 PM

Dear All,

PN79 is right.
thumbsup

- that is maximum range for targer tracking (page 13)
that's right for distance, not for (beta) – azimuth, who we can lock it even 80Km,
in V.921 yes we can do that, but not in V.922!


You cannot move the range boresight over 50km.
But there is one important change in the Neva target tracking system, compared to the earlier versions.
When you start tracking the target (in angles), it should be visible on both I1 and I2 indicator. (It should be within 1.5km of the range boresight)

This is how it works in real life.
yep
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/03/11 01:23 PM

the missile go to extreme right (or left), in small distance from target (in end of tracking), and miss the target..
- simulated B-1B goes too high and too fast for S-125 - basically green control indicating that target is in missiles reach would not light up (manual page 34, point 3)


That green light means, that against a non maneuvering, non jamming - straight flying target, you have 97% chance of hit if you launch 2 missiles.

You can launch missiles at any time, just the probability of hit will be severely reduced.
The V601 is optimized for low altitude engagements. Over 15km of height, its overload capability is severely reduced, and may not be able to follow the narrow tracking beam of the SNR.
(leaving the screen left or right...)
cowboy
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/03/11 02:36 PM

hi!

But there is one important change
This is how it works in real life

sorry i did'nt know for this critical change!

real life .... dizzy

The V601 is optimized for low altitude engagements. Over 15km of height, its overload capability is severely reduced, and may not be able to follow the narrow tracking beam of the SNR.

and some times it dance like spinning top, and go to right and come back at left, and soon
Brrr dizzy
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/03/11 02:41 PM

and for big offset in target distance between P-19 radar and tracking Radar SNR-125
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/05/11 07:53 PM

The next SAM system, to be added into the SAM Simulator "Realistic to the Switch" will be the SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2F).
You will be able to occupy the position of the Vietnamese SAM operator, and use the same controls, to dodge Weasels and B-52's.

thumbsup





Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/05/11 10:49 PM

No problem we are waiting for B-52's. grrr
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/05/11 10:52 PM

you haven't answer my question about:
a big offset in target distance between P-19 radar and tracking Radar SNR-125
Posted By: EinsteinEP

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/06/11 03:01 AM

Looking forward to it, Hpasp! Keep those switches (and knobs and buttons and dials and gauges and lights and...) coming!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/07/11 03:48 PM

a big offset in target distance between P-19 radar and tracking Radar SNR-125

Could you be a bit more specific?
With description of situation, screenshots, etc...

Thanks,
Hpasp
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/10/11 04:04 PM

There will be a minor version update (v.922b), containing several fixes and a significant graphical acceleration, released before the next weekend.
thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/12/11 12:13 AM

Hi!

Could you be a bit more specific?
With description of situation, screenshots, etc..


I wait first for v922b, may be it's just low graphical acceleration for my PC,

look what we do for the pilots, ... real hard labor ! duck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5PNhNEW-os&feature=player_embedded skyisfalling

and what they can do to as (two men in right not lucky at all, wrong place at wrong time !)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrsjVtwe3QM&feature=related Wounded Wounded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOWHdMVMAY&NR=1

and other men lucky ! bananadance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zaeMQ_5RQk&feature=related
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/12/11 12:37 PM

"may be it's just low graphical acceleration for my PC,"

v922b will have big graphical acceleration compared to v922.

If you compare the SAM sites on those videos, with these camouflaged Serbian ones, you will grasp the difference...


Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/12/11 08:11 PM


wonderful news indeed. copter
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/13/11 05:05 PM

SAM Simulator Minor version update v0.922b is released
It contains several fixes and a significant graphical acceleration.
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

thumbsup
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/13/11 06:19 PM

Downloading now!

Before this release I had mostly given up on playing. I'm still stuck with a low spec computer (2.20 ghz Intel, 2 gb RAM with some trash Intel chipset that would've been low spec in the early 90s) and the SA-2 and SA-3 were pretty much unplayable. Terrain height and clutter is an awesome feature, but God it's hard on low spec computers!

Also, in your last version I noticed you changed the way the SA-4 gets loaded on the firing range. It now loads 1 missile per launcher, which is a huge improvement over fully loading each launcher before loading onto the 2nd and 3rd launchers!

Off to install .922b! Hopefully the SA-2 and SA-3 will be playable again!

Edit:

Just used the SA-2 at the firing range and wow, where .922 crawled, .922b flys! While I don't actually know what my frame rate was, everything was very smooth. Thank you very much for this awesome update, Hpasp!

Fun fact; It took SamSim roughly 17:25:754 to install.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/13/11 08:09 PM

Gentlemen... I got it!
5 times! smile
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/13/11 10:28 PM

I found an odd bug; if you disable "Digital Elevation Mesh" you can no longer designate targets with the SA-4.

Example:

1. Designate target with Long Track
2. Throw radar off dummy load
3. Activate automatic angle tracking
*Bug*
The guidance radar display doesn't show you're tracking a target, it remains in П (Pelengation) mode. If you attempt to change to the Target Designation Mode switch to Continuous, automatic angel tracking is canceled and the target is lost.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/14/11 07:34 AM


I found an odd bug; if you disable "Digital Elevation Mesh" you can no longer designate targets with the SA-4.

Example:

1. Designate target with Long Track
2. Throw radar off dummy load
3. Activate automatic angle tracking
*Bug*
The guidance radar display doesn't show you're tracking a target, it remains in П (Pelengation) mode. If you attempt to change to the Target Designation Mode switch to Continuous, automatic angel tracking is canceled and the target is lost.


I found it, again a one liner bug...
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/14/11 08:18 AM

Yes. Also, the problem seems to be that the system refuses to switch into Automatic Angle Tracking mode. If you go through either manual or automatic (via Long Track) target acquisition the system fails to transfer from "P" mode to "A" mode on the Z screen. As you press the top black button to transfer to Automatic Angle Tracking the P disappears for ~.5 seconds, the A lights up, disappears and the P lights back up.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/14/11 08:25 AM

This is the same one.
Actually it drops the target tracking completely, and returns to "P" mode.

The usual dilemma...
... should I create a "c" version now, with the fix, or should I wait for other bugs to pop up?
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/14/11 12:44 PM

You should just wait. Even in .922 I never had a reason to disable that option when using the SA-4.
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 02:15 AM

Not normally into US/NATO SAMs, but I just ran across these links while looking for something else. I thought the first link was especially interesting.

http://www.thuleforum.com/nike.htm
http://nikemissile.org/RCDC.shtml
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 03:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
a big offset in target distance between P-19 radar and tracking Radar SNR-125

Could you be a bit more specific?
With description of situation, screenshots, etc...

Thanks,
Hpasp
thumbsup


hi!

there is some screenshoots of this big offset between -Display 2 of SNR-125 and P-15/19:

I'm at "Hungary-1989", the target is Mig-21Mf at 13Km Altitude.




at the end of tracking at 50Km the offset is reduced, but still present


At the end we loss completely the target, but still in P15/19.



goodnight
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 05:20 AM

Not normally into US/NATO SAMs, but I just ran across these links while looking for something else. I thought the first link was especially interesting.

Nike Simulator from Ed:
http://ed-thelen.org/NikeSimulation.html
thumbsup

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 05:31 AM

there is some screenshoots of this big offset between -Display 2 of SNR-125 and P-15/19:
I'm at "Hungary-1989", the target is Mig-21Mf at 13Km Alt.


One pic would have been enough smile

Target Acquisition Radars display horizontal distance "D", while Fire Control Radars display slant range "R".

Only if the target fly at high altitude it is really noticable...
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 05:56 AM

Hi !

I have a question about automatic firing mode in S-125:
in salvo mode it launch the two missiles from channel 1 & 2.
but in non salvo mode, it don't use missiles in channel 2, even if the two channel 1 is empty !
we can launch channel 2 missiles manually, even if automatic firing mode is ON !
but if we change to other launcher (and automatic firing mode still ON).... the missile in channel 1, Go!

some explanation? Hpasp? reading
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 05:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
there is some screenshoots of this big offset between -Display 2 of SNR-125 and P-15/19:
I'm at "Hungary-1989", the target is Mig-21Mf at 13Km Alt.


One pic would have been enough smile

Target Acquisition Radars display horizontal distance "D", while Fire Control Radars display slant range "R".

Only if the target fly at high altitude it is really noticable...



Humm .. ther is the secret! so simple so that!

Thank you for reply !
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 06:18 AM

I have a question about automatic firing mode in S-125:
in salvo mode it launch the two missiles from channel 1 & 2.
but in non salvo mode, it don't use missiles in channel 2, even if the two channel 1 is empty !
we can launch channel 2 missiles manually, even if automatic firing mode is ON !
but if we change to other launcher (and automatic firing mode still ON).... the missile in channel 1, Go!
some explanation?


You nearly described all the inbuilt logic of the system smile

1, It will automatic launch if the "Razreshenie" lamp illuminates, and no missiles were launched to the same target earlier.
(You can reset this by selecting new launcher)
(Automatic launch is for the first salvo, at the furthest possible range)

2, Automatic launch will launch No1 missile all the time first.
(if there is no missile at No1 launcher, it will not work)
(If a salvo set, No2 missile will be launched)

3, At manual mode, if salvo is set, you can still decide if you want to launch 1 or two missile.
If you launch No1, than No2 will be launched automatically.
If you launch No2, than there will be no salvo.
(as salvo is only capable of launching No2)
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 07:08 AM

1, It will automatic launch if the "Razreshenie" lamp illuminates, and no missiles were launched to the same target earlier.
(You can reset this by selecting new launcher)
(Automatic launch is for the first salvo, at the furthest possible range)


what's mean reset for you!
Because if we select new launcher (and automatic firing mode is already ON - and no missiles were launched to the same target earlier).... the missile in channel 1 is launched automatically, ... it Go!
it will not be reset!

2, Automatic launch will launch No1 missile all the time first.
(if there is no missile at No1 launcher, it will not work)
(If a salvo set, No2 missile will be launched)


it launch missile n°1, if n°1 not present, it will launch n° 3 if present ! right? (and if the "Razreshenie" lamp is already illuminates, and we change to new launcher, with n°1 ready -or n°3 ready- , it will be aunched automatically!) is it right?

3, At manual mode, if salvo is set, you can still decide if you want to launch 1 or two missile.
If you launch No1, than No2 will be launched automatically.
If you launch No2, than there will be no salvo.
(as salvo is only capable of launching No2)


and we can't launch missile n°3 or n°4, before launching n°1 and n°2, is it right?


Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 07:47 AM

1, It will automatic launch if the "Razreshenie" lamp illuminates, and no missiles were launched to the same target earlier.
(You can reset this by selecting new launcher)
(Automatic launch is for the first salvo, at the furthest possible range)

what's mean reset for you!
Because if we select new launcher (and automatic firing mode is already ON - and no missiles were launched to the same target earlier).... the missile in channel 1 is launched automatically, ... it Go!
it will not be reset!


Exactly.
Auto launch on.
If the "Razreshenie" lamp illuminates, it will launch automatically, then a blocking unit will prevent further launches against the same target.
If new launcher is selected, the blocking unit is reseted, and missiles will be automatically launched against the same target.


Historically might be interesting, that originally this system was designed for auto launch capability only, without the manual launch possibility.
Soviet military rejected this idea during testing, stating "Operator should have the possibility of manual launch, even if hit is unlikely, just to scare the enemy as last chance".
So the system was redesigned, keeping parts of the original autolaunch capability in place.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 07:56 AM

2, Automatic launch will launch No1 missile all the time first.
(if there is no missile at No1 launcher, it will not work)
(If a salvo set, No2 missile will be launched)

it launch missile n°1, if n°1 not present, it will launch n° 3 if present ! right? (and if the "Razreshenie" lamp is already illuminates, and we change to new launcher, with n°1 ready -or n°3 ready- , it will be aunched automatically!) is it right?


Again history is involved.
This system was originally designed with launchers capable of handling two missiles...

“In June 1961 Aleksandr Alekseyevich set about creating a modification that was
designated Neva-M. Our OKB-304 participated in this effort. Our joint activities soon were
crowned with success. The plant assimilated the technology for printed circuit board assembly.
Reliability increased and the military confirmed our conclusion that it was possible to assimilate
the station for series production. This elicited a new requirement: increase the station’s capability
to fire on targets flying at very low altitudes.

Minister of Defence of the Soviet Union

“At approximately the same time, Dmitriy Fedorovich Ustinov proposed that Grushin
place not two, but four missiles on a launcher. Petr Dmitriyevich thought a moment and said:
“’The launcher won’t stand that.’
“Ustinov:
“’Well, humor me. Do it.’


So No1 means channel one.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 07:58 AM

what I have personally see in land (real firing polygon), that automatic launch and automatic guiders of missiles not used at all !
may be also proximity fuse is in manual mode ! (using K3 I think!)

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 08:03 AM

Gentlemen... I got it!

Congrat.
Just use only the I87V/TT method...
... and do not forget, that the Vietnamese were denied of the Volhov during the War.
They had to fight with the Dvina.
yep
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 08:30 AM

what I have personally see in land (real firing polygon), that automatic launch and automatic guiders of missiles not used at all !
may be also proximity fuse is in manual mode ! (using K3 I think!)


Hmmm, strange...
... Hungarians were used the automatic launch with salvo at Ustka Poligon (in Poland) always.
nope
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 08:34 AM

Thanks.
Maybe that's why they didn't shoot down any.


Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Gentlemen... I got it!

Congrat.
Just use only the I87V/TT method...
... and do not forget, that the Vietnamese were denied of the Volhov during the War.
They had to fight with the Dvina.
yep

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 08:52 AM

Thanks.
Maybe that's why they didn't shoot down any.


This simulation tries to be as close to reality as possible. [still no 3d visualization of engagements nope ]
If you overachieve real historical results, than may be the actual operators were under achieving, or the system you use are better than in real history...
... and also, real operators had only ONE chance in a given situation.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 09:02 AM

As thou wish, Sire.
I was experimenting a bit and luckily managed to shoot it down smile

Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 09:04 AM

Yeah, I know it's only a simulation.
But still it's pretty challenging and interesting!


Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Thanks.
Maybe that's why they didn't shoot down any.


This simulation tries to be as close to reality as possible. [still no 3d visualization of engagements nope ]
If you overachieve real historical results, than may be the actual operators were under achieving, or the system you use are better than in real history...
... and also, real operators had only ONE chance in a given situation.
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 09:21 AM

This will be long one:

1. V-601PD does the job!

10:22am 30th of June 1970
First wave, performing reconnaissance of the Cairo air defense system.

Reconnaisance force:
4 RF-4 Orev
4 Mirage-IIICJ

S-125M1 Neva


11:09, V601PD 5V27D Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 20km
Target azimuth: 146°
Target elevation: 1°
Target altitude: 426m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


11:15, V601PD 5V27D Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 18km
Target azimuth: 142°
Target elevation: 1°
Target altitude: 426m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


11:34, Missile exploded on Channel-1
Mirage-IIICJ number 1 of flight-1 hit by SAM. (miss distance: 63m)

11:43, Missile exploded on Channel-2
Mirage-IIICJ number 1 of flight-1 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 58m)


Total, SNR On Air Time: 1min 34sec

I was unable to do it with V-601 before (described earlier), the Mirages went slightly off range.

What I observed during the engagement (several variants tested), was that it's hard to lock the angle even when the reflection brightness is easily distinguishable at SDC. What's more, the only way to maintain the lock is to switch SDC off at some stage (I suspect that's due to low radial speed of the target - described in the manual) - but how the lock is being maintained when target and ground reflections become impossible to distinguish? Did you incorporate a kind of "intelligent tracker"?


2. When we are already here: it would be a great advantage (and further step towards reality) to introduce a simplified manual tracking in the SAMSIM (e.g. up-down arrows - elevation, left-right - azimuth, pg up - pg dn - range -- so that it can be done with one hand). First, I think it will show the beauty of the systems where so much still depended on operator skills, and, what some of us would like even more - add a few more switches smile. It would be especially desirable after you introduced ground reflection modelling and possibility to lose the auto tracking.


3. One comment on the Hungarian Ustka practice, based on Peter Skarus memories: DDR-Germans never used auto-launch. What's more, they were taught to absolutely ignore the UK-31M1 range rings! The decision to shoot was taken based only on own experience of the commander (and a bit of calculations taken in the memory in the meantime). According to the author, there were several reasons for that:
First - and what is not modelled in the game (maybe should be?)- the time between establishing a lock (or reporting "track" by all three manual trackers) and the machine starting to display the rings was supposed to be the sometimes vital 4 to 8 seconds (ah, those early analogue computers!).
Second - the German concept of "kill zone" was based on a bit different assumptions from UK-31M1 logic: UK-31M1 assumes that the target will not radically change course after missile launch. The Germans would shoot only when ANY maneuver using maximum assumed speed would not bring the target outside the missile range. If the course parameter was to be above 12,5 km (also calculated in memory, using just a ruler put on UK-31M1 screen!!) they did not shoot at all.
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 09:36 AM

And about the timing: does the famous 20 seconds from 1999 situations include the missile flight time or not? smile

By the way, from a former Polish Volkhov battery operator I know that the time between "transmit on" and "pusk" required for a "very good" grade in training (in this particular coastal brigade, potentially "first to shoot" in case of war with NATO, for the commander, everything below "vg" was "unsatisfactory") was 3-4 seconds. As I was told, they were able to do it by:
- early detection using PRV-13!! (supposedly, in some situations more sensitive than P-18)
- prediction of flight parameters (incl. speed - therefore many launch parameters could be set beforehand) using correct interpretation of P-18 picture. The "transmit" was switched on when they were sure when the target mark would exactly appear on the screen (that meant all three boresight lines roughly in place).
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 10:02 AM

What I observed during the engagement (several variants tested), was that it's hard to lock the angle even when the reflection brightness is easily distinguishable at SDC. What's more, the only way to maintain the lock is to switch SDC off at some stage (I suspect that's due to low radial speed of the target - described in the manual) - but how the lock is being maintained when target and ground reflections become impossible to distinguish? Did you incorporate a kind of "intelligent tracker"?

Correct. Low radial speed of the target could make target acquisition using SDC impossible.
If the target is on tracking, it is not impossible to track it without SDC.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 10:08 AM

3. One comment on the Hungarian Ustka practice, based on Peter Skarus memories: DDR-Germans never used auto-launch. What's more, they were taught to absolutely ignore the UK-31M1 range rings! The decision to shoot was taken based only on own experience of the commander (and a bit of calculations taken in the memory in the meantime). According to the author, there were several reasons for that:
First - and what is not modelled in the game (maybe should be?)- the time between establishing a lock (or reporting "track" by all three manual trackers) and the machine starting to display the rings was supposed to be the sometimes vital 4 to 8 seconds (ah, those early analogue computers!).
Second - the German concept of "kill zone" was based on a bit different assumptions from UK-31M1 logic: UK-31M1 assumes that the target will not radically change course after missile launch. The Germans would shoot only when ANY maneuver using maximum assumed speed would not bring the target outside the missile range. If the course parameter was to be above 12,5 km (also calculated in memory, using just a ruler put on UK-31M1 screen!!) they did not shoot at all.


OK, this is getting deep into tactics.

Soviet manuals declare, that you should fire at the maximum range, to have chance of second salvo, if the first salvo misses.
This is how Hungarians were always practiced.

In Serbia during Operation Allied Force (1999), the operators were usually firing at minimum range, to limit SNR radiation time.
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 05:12 PM

I'm having a very serious problem... When i try to install it says:


When i press 'Yes' and try use this file (that's in the Windows paste) a second error msg appears:

I can't ignore it, it's a essential file for the installation.. If i repeat many times it says there's no more memory and the installation closes. 'Anular' closes the installarion...

I had pretty much every version of this program from v.914, but this is the first time that such a error appears here!

I hope you know how to fix it, i'm really wanting to play this version frown

BTW, my O.S is Windows XP SP3
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 05:20 PM

It looks like it's trying to uninstall the previous version. I think it should work if you simply uninstall your current version and then install the new version.
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 05:25 PM

I already did it! I uninstall my version every time Hpasp release a new update frown
I went there and tried to install, this time, an old version...
I had the same error... Now I'm confused, because i'm just using the same process as aways! Any solution?
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 05:39 PM

That's odd.. Do you happen to have CCleaner? If so try cleaning your registry, I have to do this every time I uninstall anyways, else my SA-4 will miss 99% of Lead shots, and my SA-5 misses targets it shouldn't. If you don't have it you can get it from here: http://www.filehippo.com/download_ccleaner

Before you use it (assuming you haven't) make sure you go into the "Applications" tab and uncheck some of the delete options for your preferred browser. If not you'll end up deleting your cookies, site preferences, etc. Also, when you clean your registry, you need to do it until CCleaner reports 0 errors twice.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 06:22 PM

Did you unpacked the rar before install?
How many files You have?

Do you happen to have CCleaner? If so try cleaning your registry, I have to do this every time I uninstall anyways, else my SA-4 will miss 99% of Lead shots, and my SA-5 misses targets it shouldn't. If you don't have it you can get it from here: http://www.filehippo.com/download_ccleaner

SAMSIM does not use the registry to store any data.
All new program start is using a clean data set.
Any KRUG/Vega missile misses has different reason.

You can try to locate the SAMSIM folder somewhere under program files, and simply delete it with all the contents.
Than try to install.
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/15/11 08:24 PM

Thank you for your help, but i used the CCleaner, then the register repair, then retarted the computer for a Chkdsk on C:\...
Now it worked! I think the CCleaner also fix problems with the archives and pastes...

Anyway, many thanks, now i'm installing! smile
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/16/11 06:43 AM

Can you tell me why there's no IADS support in the historical missions?
I mean it's ok, they might be too easy with the IADS but is it historically accurate or the lack of IADS is to make the missions more challenging?
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/16/11 07:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
I'm having a very serious problem... When i try to install it says:


When i press 'Yes' and try use this file (that's in the Windows paste) a second error msg appears:

I can't ignore it, it's a essential file for the installation.. If i repeat many times it says there's no more memory and the installation closes. 'Anular' closes the installarion...

I had pretty much every version of this program from v.914, but this is the first time that such a error appears here!

I hope you know how to fix it, i'm really wanting to play this version frown

BTW, my O.S is Windows XP SP3


Hi to all's!

This trouble happens because of path name compatibilities between old system name (8+.2 for old 16bit system) and new name used in XP system (up to 256 characters).
I have got same trouble before, and simply to avoid trouble with path and destination try to Unzip to simple name folder in C:\, example: (C:\samsim\) directly, and then install, even if you unzip the package in D:\ or E:\, avoid using your desktop to install, because it may make in some case a trouble with name path ..

When i press 'Yes' and try use this file (that's in the Windows paste) a second error msg appears:

may be this file is not the same needed file.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/16/11 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Thank you for your help, but i used the CCleaner, then the register repair, then retarted the computer for a Chkdsk on C:\...
Now it worked! I think the CCleaner also fix problems with the archives and pastes...

Anyway, many thanks, now i'm installing! smile


what do CCleaner, is Fixing the troubles in name conversion and delete obsolete information in registry who can make this trouble.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/16/11 02:21 PM

Can you tell me why there's no IADS support in the historical missions?

IADS were not exported at that time, even Hungary received the first system in 1980.

If the Libyan scenarios will be finished, than there will be available IADS.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/16/11 04:43 PM

Thanks for the explanation. Does it apply to the U2/Powers incident as well?


Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Can you tell me why there's no IADS support in the historical missions?

IADS were not exported at that time, even Hungary received the first system in 1980.

If the Libyan scenarios will be finished, than there will be available IADS.
Posted By: arkhangelsk

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/17/11 02:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
OK, this is getting deep into tactics.

Soviet manuals declare, that you should fire at the maximum range, to have chance of second salvo, if the first salvo misses.
This is how Hungarians were always practiced.


How were the East Germans going to explain that little difference to Moscow? The Soviet General plans his air defence scheme on the basis of Soviet doctrine and then the East Germans don't shoot in some circumstances? yep
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/17/11 06:32 AM

Thanks for the explanation. Does it apply to the U2/Powers incident as well?

Yes, and even for the Tallinn situation.
The AVR were introduced only in 1970 at that unit.

http://14dpvo.ucoz.ru/index/0-4
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/17/11 08:03 AM

Thanks, I think I'll learn something here smile
I've read some older posts with suggestions about what features could be added to the sim in the future.
Well, I would welcome a dynamic campaign and... perhaps a mission in which you try to shoot down the Air Force One? smile

But jokes aside, I think that some time acceleration feature could be useful, since in some scenarios you can only wait for several minutes before targets come into range.


Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Thanks for the explanation. Does it apply to the U2/Powers incident as well?

Yes, and even for the Tallinn situation.
The AVR were introduced only in 1970 at that unit.

http://14dpvo.ucoz.ru/index/0-4

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/17/11 09:57 AM

I've read some older posts with suggestions about what features could be added to the sim in the future.

Several ideas were already noted...

- keyboard possibility to set range-elevation-azimuth

- dynamic situation is a bit futuristic.
Real air attack is usually precisely choreographed event, where each element should stick to his timetable.
I have several Strelba exercise situations (in Ashuluk), so in the future, there might be a possibility to face unknown direction and speed targets.

- add more situation in Egypt

- add Libya situation
Here the first time, when HARM was launched by anger.
HARM is pretty sophisticated compared to Shrike, so completely new code should be written.

- add several Serbia 1999 situation
Again, first the HARM code should be written

- add Shilka (as the only successful in the Libya situ)

=> But currently all efforts goes to the SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F) system.



Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/17/11 02:13 PM

What about the old idea of advanced manuals for SA-2E and SA-3B?
With the "hidden" switches use and some technique advices?! smile

BTW:. I'm having some trouble finding targets on Sinai situation with SA-3B... Could anyone give me some useful advices?
I just can't find the targets in distance and range, i think my technique was some flaws.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/17/11 02:36 PM

What about the old idea of advanced manuals for SA-2E and SA-3B?
With the "hidden" switches use and some technique advices?!


Most of these are already (or will be) discussed here.

BTW:. I'm having some trouble finding targets on Sinai situation with SA-3B... Could anyone give me some useful advices?
I just can't find the targets in distance and range, i think my technique was some flaws.


Most important is at page 16 of the manual...
Important to note, that by the usage of SDC, low radial speed (hovering or parallel flying) targets can completely disappear from the indicator.
SDC should be used with 40km range mode only.

Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/17/11 07:03 PM

Well, I think there's no way to implement a dynamic campaign system in the SAM Sim due to the nature of the game.
But a "dynamic situation" scenario could be a good idea.
What about a scenario where you suddenly detect a plane or formation flying at a more or less random altitude or on a random course, maneuvering or not and you have to react accordingly? Because now, we know pretty well what is flying towards us and an element of surprise would be welcome.

But I realise that we have many ideas and you're already busy, so you know - maybe in the future, when you have time... smile


Originally Posted By: Hpasp


- dynamic situation is a bit futuristic.
Real air attack is usually precisely choreographed event, where each element should stick to his timetable.
I have several Strelba exercise situations (in Ashuluk), so in the future, there might be a possibility to face unknown direction and speed targets.





Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/17/11 11:04 PM

I have a question about KRUG system:
How i set manually the altitude for jamming target?!
Other thing... Why when i set manually the range for jamming target the Long Track screen shows a dot, representing the calculated location of target?! It was like that on real life, when battery commander putted a simulated range for the jamming target, the battalion commander received it and had it shown on it's screen?

Another things: What's the use of this button?



And what's the use of this weird thing, heating?
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 02:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
I have a question about KRUG system:
How i set manually the altitude for jamming target?!
Other thing... Why when i set manually the range for jamming target the Long Track screen shows a dot, representing the calculated location of target?! It was like that on real life, when battery commander putted a simulated range for the jamming target, the battalion commander received it and had it shown on it's screen?

Another things: What's the use of this button?



First of all you don't need to set the altitude for the 2K11 Krug. Secondly, that switch is the SNR Frequency selector switch, it's used with the three buttons on the Z screen. If you notice, on the Z screen there are three lights that can show Roman numerals (I, II and III), these show which frequency you're currently operating on. These SNR frequencies are used during war time, or when operating near another 2K11 system. As for your last picture, I have no clue what those are.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 05:21 AM

Hi!
I have some original questions:
first about that wheels:



I suppose that four wheels (1 to 4)are used to get target manually, I don't now which one is for what exactly, but I know that they works like mouse dragging (left-right) in the tree indicators Up, (elevation, range, azimuth) and one of them still with unknown function for me!
and to lock automatic tracking we pull (or push) the desired wheels, in theory only two wheels can do this push/pull,..
my guess is right?

can you tell me more about that wheels?

And I have an Important Question:
After launching Missile (just one, no salvo mode, and all necessary stage is done to launch), and before the missile hit the target,
what can do the second (2) wheel? in this short moment? (or all others wheels?)
and are there Guidelines method to use C-125? (automatic mode use, semi-automatic mode use, manual mode use).


the rounded white indicators is for what? (I guess is for launcher's direction!?, or SNR orientation?)
they are not important to be in SAM Sim?

and finally (for to day), what do switch (2)

Thank you for reading, and for all the time you keep to answer our scuse_me questions! wave
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 05:31 AM

I hope, that once in your life, you will have the possibility to personally climb into one of these system.
(In a museum, or at an airshow)

It will be quite a surreal experience, that you were never there in your life earlier, but you know most of the switches...
yep

Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 05:45 AM

can we hope to see one day, simulator for this - maybe in the future, when you have more time... WinkNGrin





for ho want to ask; it's SAM S-300-MPU Fire Cabin Control.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 05:49 AM

I have a question about KRUG system:
How i set manually the altitude for jamming target?!


KRUG mode of operation under jamming is pretty similar to what the Volhov has with I87V.
When you put it into jamming range tracking "PA" mode, you can set the target range with the range wheel, and the target altitude with the elevation wheel.

Set altitude, and range can be read out from the DHV instrument

Other thing... Why when i set manually the range for jamming target the Long Track screen shows a dot, representing the calculated location of target?! It was like that on real life, when battery commander putted a simulated range for the jamming target, the battalion commander received it and had it shown on it's screen?

Yes. The I87V at the Volhov also creates you a simulated target distance. It is used to determine the moment of missile launch.

Another things: What's the use of this button?

NaiseFail described it nicely.
It was a guarded and sealed switch during peacetime, to avoid accidental betrayal of this capability.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 06:16 AM

I have a question about KRUG system:
... what's the use of this weird thing, heating?


They are the heart of the SDC system.
They are called "potenciáloszkóp" (potential tube) in Hungarian, I do not know the English word for it.

They are basically analogue vacuum memory tubes storing the transmitted impulse (like a TV screen), than the received pulse is compared to it.
http://www.radartutorial.eu/11.coherent/co07.en.html



Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 06:37 AM

As far as technology is concerned...
In this article they say that the Polish ODRA 1325 computer was used in the system that downed the F117.
(The article is in Polish, unfortunately).

http://www.newsweek.pl/artykuly/sekcje/nauka/odra-1305--cud-techniki-po-polsku-,59316,1
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 06:47 AM

I have some original questions:
first about that wheels:



I suppose that four wheels (1 to 4)are used to get target manually, I don't now which one is for what exactly, but I know that they works like mouse dragging (left-right) in the tree indicators Up, (elevation, range, azimuth) and one of them still with unknown function for me!
and to lock automatic tracking we pull (or push) the desired wheels, in theory only two wheels can do this push/pull,..
my guess is right?

can you tell me more about that wheels?


1, elevation, you can rotate it left - right

2, range, you can rotate it left - right (this wheel is bigger, to be able to rotate it more precisely)

4, azimuth, you can rotate it left - right and also you can pull it out (approx 1cm) or push it in.
When it is pulled out towards you, than you are in control. (manual mode)
When it is pushed in (right click on the mouse), towards the instrument panel, than the system has control. (automatic angle tracking mode)

3, target acquisition mode selector
In the beginning, these systems (SA-2/SA-3) were shipped without target acquisition radars (P12/P15/P18).
So they can be used like an acquisition radar. This mode is not simulated with the Neva, but you have it in the Volhov. (not documented smile
This rotating wheel has 4 settings, off-KO-MSP-BSP. The indicator is above it.

After the Vietnam war, all SAM battery received own target acquisition radar, and these were forbidden to use. (also suicidal)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 07:03 AM

And I have an Important Question:
After launching Missile (just one, no salvo mode, and all necessary stage is done to launch), and before the missile hit the target,
what can do the second (2) wheel? in this short moment? (or all others wheels?)
and are there Guidelines method to use C-125? (automatic mode use, semi-automatic mode use, manual mode use).


Yes they have.
SA-2/SA-3 both has
- RS (manual target acquisition mode, Fire Control Officer)
- AS (manual target tracking mode, Elevation/Range/Azimuth Tracking Officer)
- AS-AP (automatic target tracking mode - by the system)

In the sim, we have only RS and AS-AP.
Elevation/Range/Azimuth Tracking Officer is not simulated.

You cannot do much with the wheels, if the missile is launched.
At the SA2, you can reacquire the target if it is lost, but the chance of hit is reduced.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 07:09 AM

I have some original questions:

the rounded white indicators is for what? (I guess is for launcher's direction!?, or SNR orientation?)
they are not important to be in SAM Sim?


They are for initial SNR setup at a new place for Geodetic measurements.

and finally (for to day), what do switch (2)

IFF
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 07:16 AM

can we hope to see one day, simulator for this - maybe in the future, when you have more time... WinkNGrin
for ho want to ask; it's SAM S-300xx Fire Cabin Control.


It is the F2 cabin of the S-300PS/PMU Volhov-M6 (SA-10B) system.
I would launch all the target drones in Asuluk at the same time, and than would hit all parallel...
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 07:18 AM

Three first paragraphs from the article:

On 30th April (2010), Odra, the last Polish computer that was working uninterruptedly for more than 30 years was shut down. The computer was the pride of the Polish IT industry of the communist period.

For Capt Tedd Reachmond, the night flight on 27th March 1999 had an unexpected ending.
The F117 stealth attack aircraft which he piloted was performing a combat mission over Serbia when it got into the range of the Tamara passive radar system manufactured in the former Czechoslovakia. The Rodan 10 computer that controlled the system detected a very small contact. In the memory of the device which was a military variant of the Odra 1325, sample echoes generated by the B2 and F117 aircraft were stored.

A second-long analysis, conclusion: it’s an enemy aircraft. Another second: range, speed, altitude, flight path. The data are sent to a Soviet-made S125 Neva SAM system. Serbian Colonel Zoltan Dani gives a short command: “Launch the missile”. A few seconds pass, there is an explosion explosion and USD 120 million worth aircraft begins its last descent.

It’s hard to say who was more surprised: Capt Reachmond, floating under the canopy of his parachute or analysts at the Pentagon. According to their information, equipment manufactured in the Warsaw Pact countries by no means could detect and destroy high-tech stealth aircraft. However, this assumption was not stored in the memory of the old Odra computer. It was doing its job.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 07:26 AM

Quote:

...
It is the F2 cabin of the S-300PS/PMU Volhov-M6 (SA-10B) system.
I would launch all the target drones in Asuluk at the same time, and than would hit all parallel...

thumbsup

don't forget to send us invitation! we will be ready ready for that!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 07:28 AM

As far as technology is concerned...
In this article they say that the Polish ODRA 1325 computer was used in the system that downed the F117.
(The article is in Polish, unfortunately).


Nice advertisement...
... just not true.

1, Lt. Col. Dale Zelko was the F117A pilot.
2, Tamara was not used during OAF. (personally I doubt, that it could detect the Stealth)
3, F117A was acquired by a modified P18 at that night.

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 07:41 AM

Three first paragraphs from the article:

On 30th April (2010), Odra, the last Polish computer that was working uninterruptedly for more than 30 years was shut down. The computer was the pride of the Polish IT industry of the communist period.

For Capt Tedd Reachmond, the night flight on 27th March 1999 had an unexpected ending.
The F117 stealth attack aircraft which he piloted was performing a combat mission over Serbia when it got into the range of the Tamara passive radar system manufactured in the former Czechoslovakia. The Rodan 10 computer that controlled the system detected a very small contact. In the memory of the device which was a military variant of the Odra 1325, sample echoes generated by the B2 and F117 aircraft were stored.

A second-long analysis, conclusion: it’s an enemy aircraft. Another second: range, speed, altitude, flight path. The data are sent to a Soviet-made S125 Neva SAM system. Serbian Colonel Zoltan Dani gives a short command: “Launch the missile”. A few seconds pass, there is an explosion explosion and USD 120 million worth aircraft begins its last descent.

It’s hard to say who was more surprised: Capt Reachmond, floating under the canopy of his parachute or analysts at the Pentagon. According to their information, equipment manufactured in the Warsaw Pact countries by no means could detect and destroy high-tech stealth aircraft. However, this assumption was not stored in the memory of the old Odra computer. It was doing its job.


Please...
banghead

Better article about this event:
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2005/11/secrets-of-1999-f-117-shootdown.html


Myself with Dani Zoltán.
(Im holding the piece of the F117A thumbsup )
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 08:14 AM

Thanks for the comments.
I'm not responsible for the contents of the article smile
If it's inaccurate, it's sad that they publish such things in the net.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 08:24 AM

My New EW Radar. yeah (it's not a polish made!!)



with my old SNR-125. cowboy


as seen in Spot TV
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 08:30 AM

Nice pics. Is that you in front of the screen writing posts for this forum? smile

Originally Posted By: Kairo
My New EW Radar. yeah (it's not a polish made!!)
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 08:51 AM

I have observation about a lot of keys, switches, knob, and others who are not in use, and so no details or info about them, some explanation ?



are they planned for future for more realistic use?
(next pic's is come in!)
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Nice pics. Is that you in front of the screen writing posts for this forum? smile

Originally Posted By: Kairo
My New EW Radar. yeah (it's not a polish made!!)


unfortunately no, I have retired since 2000 due to illness!! sigh
I woked in SNR-125 ....
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 08:59 AM

Sorry. BTW, I was in Boumerdes once.

Originally Posted By: Kairo


unfortunately no, I have retired since 2000 due to illness!! sigh
I woked in SNR-125 ....
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 09:07 AM

humm .. work, tourist or live on this town?

there is some think there ..
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 09:20 AM

I have observation about a lot of keys, switches, knob, and others who are not in use, and so no details or info about them, some explanation ?


are they planned for future for more realistic use?


Some of these are for initial system check, some are for systems that are not modeled.

1...4, I do not know by hart, should be checked.

5...10, are for ARU/MARU/RRU controls.
Not simulated.
(auto/manual gain)

11, Angle synchronizer input source.
(used during maintenance only.)

12, Missile tracker mark check switch.
At the Volhov you can see the 3 missile tracker mark at the bottom of the I32V indicators.
At the Neva they are "below" the screen. When you switch it, they jump forward, to the screen.
(used during maintenance only.)

13, Ask electricity from the generator operators.
They have a lamp that illuminates if this is pressed.
(never used in Hungary)

14, Karat target tracking camera is switched on indicator.

thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 09:34 AM

A family member was working there, I came for holiday.


Originally Posted By: Kairo
humm .. work, tourist or live on this town?

there is some think there ..
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 09:50 AM

others who are not in use also, and no info about them, some explanation ?



and some indicators who seems works but need some deep explanation




Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
A family member was working there, I came for holiday.


you'r welcome, I also have a family living there, but I live 1200Km far from them, I see them only on big holidays.
(I see you haven't put your country!)
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 11:03 AM

I live in Poland.

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: MK_PL
A family member was working there, I came for holiday.


you'r welcome, I also have a family living there, but I live 1200Km far from them, I see them only on big holidays.
(I see you haven't put your country!)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 11:16 AM

others who are not in use also, and no info about them, some explanation ?


17...18, PU drive
16, used during PU drive maintenance
15, 19, PU maintenance
14, used during target search maintenance
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 11:27 AM

and some indicators who seems works but need some deep explanation


h1, h2 is the same as in the Volhov.
It shows how far were the missile from the target (in the two plain h1/h2), when it exploded.
With 9, you can select between the two missile.

1...5 here you can launch electronic target, and missile for practice.
(this is not simulated, but these are on the to-do list smile

6...7 used only during maintenance

8, +26V circuit breaker
(we are getting too deep smile

10, maintenance mode selector

IM, magnetron heater current indicator
Different current is needed for 40km and for 80km.

ID, receiver sensitivity indicator.
(working only during maintenance)

Phew...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 11:33 AM

and some indicators who seems works but need some deep explanation


1...4 UNV elevation/azimuth drive delta current

5...9 Remote UNV drive controls
(used only during maintenance)

dizzy
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 11:55 AM

Hpasp, sorry for new suggestions... but since there is so much information in this forum (e.g. in your last posts) maybe it should be included in the manuals or in the sim itself?
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 12:01 PM

BTW, Hpasp, have you seen a movie called "Flight of the Intruder"?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 12:10 PM

Hpasp, sorry for new suggestions... but since there is so much information in this forum (e.g. in your last posts) maybe it should be included in the manuals or in the sim itself?

These info is not needed for the sim. nope
Manuals are already too big, for an average player.

Who is interested deeper, can find the original manuals here:
http://historykpvo.narod2.ru/
thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 03:16 PM

reading

thank's Hpasp you are thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

Quote:
Who is interested deeper, can find the original manuals here:
http://historykpvo.narod2.ru/
thumbsup


WAAAAAAAW !! ........ it's really an Alibaba's Cavern eek2 eek2 eek2 ? Incredible !! original maintenance Book! and others estimable treasures ... dizzy
jawdrop jawdrop jawdrop jawdrop jawdrop

But ... How to translate all this documents ??? it's in Russian language, and other more difficult think, to translate: ... there are in jpeg or .djvu format. not easy at all! duhduhduh
is there some translator around..... WinkNGrinWinkNGrinWinkNGrin
or someone who already translate or convert this Doc's to word format - or Pdf-??

Hey Guy's , any one have any information about this doc's already translated to English (or other languages)??
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 03:19 PM

when translating, I have got some useful idea for Manual's to be light, when it's ready I will tell you ... rolleyes WinkNGrin
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 05:20 PM

I'm very sorry, but I still didn't understand everything that was explained... I will have to repeat few questions frown
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

5...10, are for ARU/MARU/RRU controls.
Not simulated.
(auto/manual gain)

Sorry but, what's ARU/MARU/RRU? I searched for it on manual, didn't found, and don't remember this being told on older messages.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

They are for initial SNR setup at a new place for Geodetic measurements.
So it measures the local geomagnetic interference for correction or what?

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

3, target acquisition mode selector
In the beginning, these systems (SA-2/SA-3) were shipped without target acquisition radars (P12/P15/P18).
So they can be used like an acquisition radar. This mode is not simulated with the Neva, but you have it in the Volhov. (not documented smile

So the RSN-75V3-OP can be used as a acquisition radar?
How it works, where can i find it?! Look promising!




Once again Hpasp, sorry for disturb with these silly doubts. I really admire your work, maybe especially because my country don't have any ground based radar air defense system, just som EW radars, neither did i served in the Army!
So I sorry if we expect a full simulator of every role in a SAM Battery... But's such a poorly explored area that I wait for a full simulator, that can show the greatness of this "job", even knowing that it's impossible...
Anyway, your work is still the best, by miles, in this area of civilian simulation of SAM and I'm very grateful for your "present", and for your great explanations here in the topics... Keep the great work!
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 06:29 PM

may be i can answer this first:

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
They are for initial SNR setup at a new place for Geodetic measurements.

So it measures the local geomagnetic interference for correction or what?


I think it measures no think, it just indicates simply if the SNR orientation (or alignement) is well ( right), with no offset between him and display scope, because when we put SNR in new location after displacement, we must calibrate his orientaion with instruments in Ynk cabine, we use this instrument for that, to avoid false azimuth indication (real target 240° - SNR Scope 245°: for example!)

Right??
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 06:56 PM

I can answer also this:

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
3, target acquisition mode selector
In the beginning, these systems (SA-2/SA-3) were shipped without target acquisition radars (P12/P15/P18).
So they can be used like an acquisition radar. This mode is not simulated with the Neva, but you have it in the Volhov. (not documented smile

So the RSN-75V3-OP can be used as a acquisition radar?
How it works, where can i find it?! Look promising!


the answer is already in the Volhov-ENG-V2 Manual Page 17, read the last line!



but this answer steel need deep explanation from Hpasp, because no more details is in the manual about that (I think!)
- may be is the methods in Page 22 "Target Acquisition using Wide Beam mode", I'm not sure! -


Originally Posted By: Hpasp

So they can be used like an acquisition radar. This mode is not simulated with the Neva

for Hpasp :
some planing to be add in future -in to-do list-?, because there is the real world-

Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 07:59 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL

A family member was working there, I came for holiday.
I live in Poland.

Our Territory Air Defence Higher School. is just around ...
It's formed also other foreign military from Africa, Libya , and other's country.
http://www.mdn.dz/site_cfdat/index.php?L=an#undefined
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2onpb_sortie-promotion-a-l-eadat_school (sorry no translation available!)
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/18/11 10:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
may be i can answer this first:

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
They are for initial SNR setup at a new place for Geodetic measurements.

So it measures the local geomagnetic interference for correction or what?


I think it measures no think, it just indicates simply if the SNR orientation (or alignement) is well ( right), with no offset between him and display scope, because when we put SNR in new location after displacement, we must calibrate his orientaion with instruments in Ynk cabine, we use this instrument for that, to avoid false azimuth indication (real target 240° - SNR Scope 245°: for example!)

Right??
Looks like this is the real explanation!
Many thanks!
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/19/11 01:30 AM


IMO this is one of the BEST simulations on these forums and I thank you all here so much for it and your continued work on it. beercheers
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/19/11 01:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
I'm very sorry, but I still didn't understand everything that was explained... I will have to repeat few questions frown
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

5...10, are for ARU/MARU/RRU controls.
Not simulated.
(auto/manual gain)

Sorry but, what's ARU/MARU/RRU? I searched for it on manual, didn't found, and don't remember this being told on older messages.


Because they have no efecte in Simulator, no description was brought in manual...

but just for info I want to ask the same questions to the master Hpasp!
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/19/11 01:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition

Once again Hpasp, sorry for disturb with these silly doubts. I really admire your work, maybe especially because my country don't have any ground based radar air defense system, just som EW radars, neither did i served in the Army!
So I sorry if we expect a full simulator of every role in a SAM Battery... But's such a poorly explored area that I wait for a full simulator, that can show the greatness of this "job", even knowing that it's impossible...
Anyway, your work is still the best, by miles, in this area of civilian simulation of SAM and I'm very grateful for your "present", and for your great explanations here in the topics... Keep the great work!


if you have served in the army and in any Air Defence system, .. you will admire this work 10x !
Maybe Hpasp need really help from staff who can create real 3D area, with 3D moving SNR and Fan-song radar, and real 3D visual Missiles launches from launcher, and real 3D visual Rotation of P12/15/18/19 radar and so one ....look at this:

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/506024
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/19/11 02:19 AM

look well at all this finest details in this Pic's ... incredible, really realistic 3D, and even it can move as real !
(rotate, go Up and down, open/close the door, open/close the fan's windows ...and with finest realistic shadow ! thumbsup )




isn't really finest realistic made and so beautiful !

is that what you are asking for Redcoalition ?
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/19/11 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
I have some original questions:
first about that wheels:


3, target acquisition mode selector
.....
This rotating wheel has 4 settings, off-KO-MSP-BSP. The indicator is above it.

After the Vietnam war, all SAM battery received own target acquisition radar, and these were forbidden to use. (also suicidal)


Suicidal ? because of ANTI RADIATION MISSILE (ARM)? (I suppose !)
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/19/11 03:52 AM

and there is complete Battalion Stuff ready !

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3ds-max-sa-2-guideline-battalion/506024
http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/max-sa-5-battalion-missile/513949
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/19/11 05:23 AM

For SA-3 I found only this free site, BASED ON YOUR OWN SAM SIMULATOR !! you are winner
http://files.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/59504/






may be it's what all want to see after Launching Somme Missiles yeah


Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/19/11 10:58 AM

Looks impressive. But on the other hand, we can live without it (maybe in the Platinum or Game of the Year edition of SAM sim :))
3D anims sure are a 'nice to have' gadget but it would be better to have new systems implemented in the sim.
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/19/11 12:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
look well at all this finest details in this Pic's ... incredible, really realistic 3D, and even it can move as real !
(rotate, go Up and down, open/close the door, open/close the fan's windows ...and with finest realistic shadow ! thumbsup )

isn't really finest realistic made and so beautiful !

is that what you are asking for Redcoalition ?

THIS MODELS'RE GREAT! Ok, they're "a bit" expensive (the SA-2 Battalion just $650 :D) but still...
It'd be great, but i think that would be pretty hard to implement a 3D engine on SAM Simulator. First because I think that, for exemple, the simulation of objects in the game are "point" simulations. I think (again, not sure) that Hpasp didn't programmed the dimentions for missiles because there's no need for it on the current simulator. But with a 3D engine it would be necessary to implement behavior according to object dimention (for angular momentum, etc), I think that, to have a realistic 3D SAM Simulator would demand a nice work on programming.

If he use a existent engine of some sort of simulator, he'd have to do a complete convertion of all the physics parameters of the game engine, because most of simulator's ballistic simulation isn't complete as the one in SAM Simulator. Then he would have to do animation programming, model behavior, etc, etc... It'd be pretty hard I guess... If, at least, he earn money for that...
But he don't, so I can live without 3D environment.


But the models are really great! If he mananged to do that, would be awesome, but what i really wanted was a SIM with all functions and positions on real SAM Battery. On Acquisition Radar, on Comunications Officer, etc... THAT would be great also..
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/19/11 01:36 PM

Kairo, I'm afraid you have to play Lock On: Flaming Cliffs 2 as well smile
Posted By: Timothy

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/20/11 05:23 AM

Man, I am going to need to try this out.
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/20/11 09:04 AM

Hpasp, three rather detailed issues on Neva:

1) what is the difference between SDC 1 and SDC 2 (I can see some at the screen...) - in which situations use modes 1 and 2? (just don't explain again an idea of moving target indicator - we should already know it).

2) can in real life a missile be launched when target is in RS only? In the sim, at least ASAP in angles is required, and in range you can hold on RS.
If you are going to implement moving the antennas by keyboard, a manual tracking (AS mode, now non-existent) can be implemented as well (e.g. when the switch AS-ASAP on the right is 'up' ('AS'), then missile can be launched even if the antenna is being steered manually in all aspects. I don't know if scoring a hit under such conditions won't require an octopus at the keyboard, but seems worth trying. smile

3) how is the K3 implemented?
One time you wrote that: “The rightmost "K3" is the same as the Volhov, detonate on radio command.”
It seems to me that the idea is a bit different than in Volkhov. In Neva, when the missile crosses the range line, it does not detonate. I suspect that crossing the range mark just arms the radio fuse (by K3 command sent by radar). If yes, what is practical difference between RVSB/RV and K3? What are recommendations to use it in real life?
(if at RV-something the fuse is armed 60 m ahead of the target, and at K3 – just AT the range of the target, which would mean that the missile has bigger chance to pass the target without detonating… - I’m a bit confused)
BTW, it seems that an equivalent of Volkhov’s Rab-ot-VM (fuse arming by time delay) works automatically when the TT guidance method is selected (makes sense, if assumed that TT is to be used mainly for engaging jamming targets).

Do MK_PL: Dobrze widziec kolege z Polski na tym maniackim forum! (kto wie, czy jako jedyni nie reprezentujemy kraju uzywajacego jeszcze cokolwiek ze sprzetu, o którym sobie gadamy...)
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/20/11 10:34 AM

Sorry other forum members, we have some intimate talk...

Do vintorez:
Witam, forum zaiste maniackie a temat niszowy.
SAM sima znalazlem przypadkiem i dosyc mnie wciagnal, nie powiem.
Widze, ze wiesz co nieco o tym sprzecie, ja tak tylko amatorsko sie tym interesuje. Czytalem troche wspomnien z Wietnamu i temat SAM-ów czesto tam wystepowal.

Originally Posted By: vintorez


Do MK_PL: Dobrze widziec kolege z Polski na tym maniackim forum! (kto wie, czy jako jedyni nie reprezentujemy kraju uzywajacego jeszcze cokolwiek ze sprzetu, o którym sobie gadamy...)
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/20/11 11:01 AM

smile

Przeskoczymy na 'prywatną' wymianę wiadomości? - zakładka na górze 'my stuff' i rozwija się menu 'messages'. Napisałem tam resztę.

For others: sorry for that smile
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/20/11 11:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
look well at all this finest details in this Pic's ... incredible, really realistic 3D, and even it can move as real !
(rotate, go Up and down, open/close the door, open/close the fan's windows ...and with finest realistic shadow ! thumbsup )




isn't really finest realistic made and so beautiful !

is that what you are asking for Redcoalition ?



absolutely the best ! thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/20/11 04:47 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Looks impressive. But on the other hand, we can live without it (maybe in the Platinum or Game of the Year edition of SAM sim :))3D anims sure are a 'nice to have' gadget but it would be better to have new systems implemented in the sim.

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
THIS MODELS'RE GREAT! Ok, they're "a bit" expensive (the SA-2 Battalion just $650 :D) but still...
It'd be great, but i think that would be pretty hard to implement a 3D engine on SAM Simulator. First because I think that, for exemple, the simulation of objects in the game are "point" simulations. I think (again, not sure) that Hpasp didn't programmed the dimentions for missiles because there's no need for it on the current simulator. But with a 3D engine it would be necessary to implement behavior according to object dimention (for angular momentum, etc), I think that, to have a realistic 3D SAM Simulator would demand a nice work on programming.

Hum ...! may be I haven't explained my self well !

Fist point: a Simulator of any systems, -and I have see a lot on my life dizzy -, must be realistic to switch as possible, with real views of buttons, switches, knobs, indicators lights, and gauges and real display on different main displays or scopes, ... and all others thinks must be also as real as the reality, like different sounds heard when some think is done, and even if mistake is done in this simulator mycomputer !, and certainly the same results of what we have do, as it was really done in reality (accurate as possible as on the ground!), there is the HEART of any serious simulator !

Second point: the way to use the simulator (procedures), must be strictly the same as real machine or systems who we want to simulate, no wrap up will be made in this procedures or guidelines, no "cut" or simplify of procedures or guidelines are made in simulator, if it's done, it will be a "fake" simulator, and all the game's simulator are in the reality a "fake" simulator, - in all airplane simulator you never use all required switch and knobs to power on the engines, or to take off or even landing! -may be except MS Flight Simulator-,

Third point: no points are given during using a simulators because it's like the reality, there isn't a game play with points, the SAM Simulator "includes accurate representations of history's most famous SAM kills... ", you must use the system you wont "right", to shut-down the enemy aircraft, before he Bombard you with an ARM Missile (in reality you will be Killed .... be happy not in "SAM Simulator"), and in this special case,- to not to be killed- we made real simulators, as airlines airplane simulator, to avoid harming any body when using real airplanes, or machines or even systems. You will be able to occupy the position of the operators -or pilots-, and use the same controls, with real guidelines to be used right ! -plane,machines,systems or others things-

- In this case, where is the positions of 3D animation? when can we introduce it in this simulator?

- One other importance of the simulator is to be able to analyse all what it done during the use of any simulator, detect the mistakes, learn the fault, analyse the latency of operators when operating the systems, and all other figures ..(we use it also for learning!)
and it's here when I think we can introduce the 3D analyses of the operation done! , maybe it's look hard, personally I think not at all, I have see that before, -sorry to not be able to tell you where-, but the idea was very simple !

look:
On running the simulator, we store all Data made by operator in some DATA Base created specially for 3D animation,(we store even the result of this manipulation of operator), according to real timing, at the end of simulation, and if the user want to see "what goes wrong in missing target", or analyse the trajectory of missile, or view "the missing distance", or why the missile crash, or all others things in his mind, the "DLL" of 3D animation will read this DATA Base and move the object according to the timing key in DATABase!.

This method have no relation at all with direct 3D Games animation, who requires a big staff an specialists in 3D animation to make all required textures and huge others things ...mycomputer, because the designer of this 3D Stuff, make it easy to use with direct Dll use! -the Dll read the DATA Base and make movement of objects -make the Operation's Animation!-

"Hpasp said in his site:
"The main goal during development was to simulate what the operators of the SAM battalion could see, and hear during engagement"
"

winnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinnerthumbsupwinner
Really this SAM Simulator is the BEST one I have used, even he is simple to use and Still under development, and he respect the rules of "SERIOUS" Simulator. (not Serious SAM the Gunman Game).
And I really hope that Hpasp keep looking forward and still developing and enhancing the "CORE" of SAM Simulator first, it's more important than all others secondary options.

And once the "CORE" of SAM Simulator is done,(and it's well and corrected bug's), we will (I hope), re-talking about this 3D Animation (for after report use and analysis only!)
Maybe the Stuff will be more cheaper than this day's,(at this price I need 1 year of economize ... screwy )
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/21/11 03:55 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Kairo, I'm afraid you have to play Lock On: Flaming Cliffs 2 as well smile


I don't need to play this Game, when I would to plane, I ask my friend to take me white him around ... and I'm lucky!
I can choose between this two new Type of "Eagles":
MIG-29S:

SU-30MK:

and all staff will be happy to take me around with him:

and I will be sick dizzy dizzy dizzy for two day's minimum !
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/21/11 06:06 AM

Kairo, I answered your question, check your "My Stuff".
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/21/11 07:47 AM

thank you MK_PL !
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/22/11 09:47 AM

Hi!

I have found some Pic's of Ynk in one very estimable site:
is this Ynk Cabin is the same version we used in SAM Simulator? I have noticed some minor difference between the two,
and the "operator tracking" scope is not simulated !




there is some "add" in the left




and there is some talk here about automatic or manual tracking mode! (I suppose!)


is there some explanation Sir Hpasp?
and BTW I will be happy if any body have any Pic's, from any angle,
of the interior of Ynk Cabin (control fire cabin of C-125)! cheers
All pic's are welcome!
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/22/11 11:29 AM

I think I can answer these questions at least partially:

Manual tracking is not simulated (so far?...), so the leftmost position of F2 (manual tracker) does not appear in the sim. All the remaining (3) positions are in the sim, even in the same left-right order). I have already asked Hpasp if there is a chance that we get a substitute of manual tracking - AS (still no TV, but who cares? smile ) in the sim.
I don't know it for sure, but, by deduction, manual tracker's screens should display probably nothing more that the right one (I2) of the FCO's screens (or maybe a magnification like I1?).

This "add" seems to me to be some kind of hasty upgrade. On that website I have read that the East Germans (these additional photos of cabin come probably from the German set) bought that Neva still in 1985 (man, already in the era of S-300 and Patriot Soviets have the nerve to "advertise" such outdated stuff to their "allies"...) with a newest gadget called GShN - something like an analogue jamming filter, extremely hard to set up, but nevertheless sometimes working surprisingly well - it might be its console...

But, amateur's speculations aside, let us wait for a Word of Our Guru. smile
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/22/11 12:32 PM

In the meantime:

Guess which system these guys operate: smile

Anakonda 2010

left screen: Ustka range smile
middle screen (FCO): Leftmost - range (I2), next to the right - magnification (I1).
right screen: TV tracking operator.

The entire shooting sequence is recorded, from launch command at 2:00 to hit at 2:22.
Everything can be beautifully seen on the middle screen, if you know what to look for. Target coming into range, missile, even the booster separating itself between 2:08 and 2:11.

I like the last seconds:
Radio: "Target destroyed. Congratulations. Further shooting forbidden."
Commander: "F**k."

smile

What's surprising that the guys seem not to care at all about emission time. The SNR is "on the air" for more than two minutes...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/22/11 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
Hpasp, three rather detailed issues on Neva:
1) what is the difference between SDC 1 and SDC 2 (I can see some at the screen...) - in which situations use modes 1 and 2? (just don't explain again an idea of moving target indicator - we should already know it).


SDC1 is for ground clutter
SDC2 is for ground and cloud clutter
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/22/11 01:45 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
Hpasp, three rather detailed issues on Neva:
2) can in real life a missile be launched when target is in RS only? In the sim, at least ASAP in angles is required, and in range you can hold on RS.
If you are going to implement moving the antennas by keyboard, a manual tracking (AS mode, now non-existent) can be implemented as well (e.g. when the switch AS-ASAP on the right is 'up' ('AS'), then missile can be launched even if the antenna is being steered manually in all aspects. I don't know if scoring a hit under such conditions won't require an octopus at the keyboard, but seems worth trying. smile


No. You need to switch the system to angle tracking in real life too, to be able to launch missiles.
Just think what antenna transmits/receives during angle RS, and what is needed for missile tracking...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/22/11 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
Hpasp, three rather detailed issues on Neva:

3) how is the K3 implemented?
One time you wrote that: “The rightmost "K3" is the same as the Volhov, detonate on radio command.”
It seems to me that the idea is a bit different than in Volkhov. In Neva, when the missile crosses the range line, it does not detonate. I suspect that crossing the range mark just arms the radio fuse (by K3 command sent by radar). If yes, what is practical difference between RVSB/RV and K3? What are recommendations to use it in real life?
(if at RV-something the fuse is armed 60 m ahead of the target, and at K3 – just AT the range of the target, which would mean that the missile has bigger chance to pass the target without detonating… - I’m a bit confused)
BTW, it seems that an equivalent of Volkhov’s Rab-ot-VM (fuse arming by time delay) works automatically when the TT guidance method is selected (makes sense, if assumed that TT is to be used mainly for engaging jamming targets).


K3 is used only, when the enemy is jamming the radio proximity fuse, or the fuse itself is unable to reliable detect the enemy.
(missile flies too low, target is a balloon, etc...)
K3 is detonate the warhead by command "K3" thus the name.

Phew, several questions...

Volhov RAB-OT-VM is arming the fuse after launch. At the Neva this is automatic every time, except K3.
RV is the standard fuse sensivity.
RVSB (Selector Block) is for low altitude engagement. (Similar to Volhov USU-NLC)

Recommendation, Just use RVSB as standard, K3 when enemy jam fuse.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/22/11 02:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi!
I have found some Pic's of Ynk in one very estimable site:
is this Ynk Cabin is the same version we used in SAM Simulator? I have noticed some minor difference between the two,
and the "operator tracking" scope is not simulated !



Manual target tracking is not simulated.
There is one huge inherited limitation of this sim...
... our Fire Control officer has only one hand. (one mouse)

In real life, 5+ people is working in these cabins, and all of their hands are full.
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/22/11 02:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi!

I have found some Pic's of Ynk in one very estimable site:

there is some "add" in the left



IFF
Not simulated, not discussed smile
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/22/11 02:12 PM

I think I can answer these questions at least partially:

Manual tracking is not simulated (so far?...), so the leftmost position of F2 (manual tracker) does not appear in the sim. All the remaining (3) positions are in the sim, even in the same left-right order). I have already asked Hpasp if there is a chance that we get a substitute of manual tracking - AS (still no TV, but who cares? smile ) in the sim.
I don't know it for sure, but, by deduction, manual tracker's screens should display probably nothing more that the right one (I2) of the FCO's screens (or maybe a magnification like I1?).


Correct.

This "add" seems to me to be some kind of hasty upgrade. On that website I have read that the East Germans (these additional photos of cabin come probably from the German set) bought that Neva still in 1985 (man, already in the era of S-300 and Patriot Soviets have the nerve to "advertise" such outdated stuff to their "allies"...) with a newest gadget called GShN - something like an analogue jamming filter, extremely hard to set up, but nevertheless sometimes working surprisingly well - it might be its console...

That is the same IFF operation console, that can be found on the Volhov.
GShN was built in to the Neva that was shot for the sim, so all controls are there.
(not simulated jet, as we have no angle jamming targets)
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/23/11 02:13 AM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
I think I can answer these questions at least partially:

Manual tracking is not simulated (so far?...), .....
.....
But, amateur's speculations aside, let us wait for a Word of Our Guru. smile


Thank's for this reply Vintorez

let us wait for a Word of Our Guru. smile
Oh yes!, it's what always what we need to avoid ... mycomputer
or ...

Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/23/11 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
may be i can answer this first:

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
They are for initial SNR setup at a new place for Geodetic measurements.

So it measures the local geomagnetic interference for correction or what?


I think it measures no think, it just indicates simply if the SNR orientation (or alignement) is well ( right), with no offset between him and display scope, because when we put SNR in new location after displacement, we must calibrate his orientaion with instruments in Ynk cabine, we use this instrument for that, to avoid false azimuth indication (real target 240° - SNR Scope 245°: for example!)

Right??

I have found a nice detailed Pics about this a "rounded white things!"

sorry I cant translate Russian inscription on it!
Hpasp can do it certainly! -I think!- clapping

This one don't appear as the two others, I think it's in others place (Bloc)and it's for (Beta)azimuth use!
we can only wait more deep info from our Guru reading
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/23/11 05:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Kairo
what I have personally see in land (real firing polygon), that automatic launch and automatic guiders of missiles not used at all !
may be also proximity fuse is in manual mode ! (using K3 I think!)


Hmmm, strange...
... Hungarians were used the automatic launch with salvo at Ustka Poligon (in Poland) always.
nope

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi!
I have found some Pic's of Ynk in one very estimable site:
is this Ynk Cabin is the same version we used in SAM Simulator? I have noticed some minor difference between the two,
and the "operator tracking" scope is not simulated !


Manual target tracking is not simulated.
There is one huge inherited limitation of this sim...
... our Fire Control officer has only one hand. (one mouse)

In real life, 5+ people is working in these cabins, and all of their hands are full.
thumbsup


about that I was asking in the first message, all automatic things were unallowable.
it was really a huge work duckhunter for officers in this Cabin ... dizzy
on sucess they will be winner and band cheers !! else, may be .... grrr .... behindcouch exitstageleft
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/23/11 05:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Manual target tracking is not simulated.
There is one huge inherited limitation of this sim...
... our Fire Control officer has only one hand. (one mouse)

In real life, 5+ people is working in these cabins, and all of their hands are full.
thumbsup


Can you give us some summarize how work this Manual target tracking mode, -please yep !-
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/23/11 07:29 PM


LOL! That is so true. You need a simulated AI fire control group to help fire the missiles.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/24/11 12:32 AM

Hi to All!

I have found an important documentary, it's for all who never see soldiers working in the ground, ...
it will make some nostalgia for old soldiers ! ... frown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsKbK1dPz8Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gak0BbRF3jo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCs1H7meZno&feature=related

I think you will be happy to see the following Hpasp ... biggrin biggrin all stage to launch missiles (Dvina or Desna), in real site with real operators !
and how missiles works .. thumbsup ... (this video must Take a place in SAM Simulator -I think-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz503wZd9rQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDGbxF3IcHg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIjPwwFFrK0&feature=related

ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka, Handy Streela, Streela, 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1, Kvadrat, P-19 ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD4XyPPoLOc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryaZkfEF-R0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DezafKCxTm4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjfGikFUPfE&feature=related

unfortunately only Launcher's operators for S-125 are present, and no Cabin's operators ! sigh

this is about Egyptian Air Defence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIC_yN0RoFY&NR=1
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/24/11 05:31 PM

Good videos, thanks.
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/25/11 03:30 PM


excellent videos! thanks a bunch for posting all of them indeed !
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/25/11 06:54 PM


I have found a nice detailed Pics about this a "rounded white things!"

sorry I cant translate Russian inscription on it!
Hpasp can do it certainly! -I think!- clapping

This one don't appear as the two others, I think it's in others place (Bloc)and it's for (Beta)azimuth use!


This is the readout of the exact elevation and azimuth of the SNR, in Russian military mils. (not in degree)

You will have to learn these kind of instruments at the Shilka.
(Just start it from the sim, and see these similar type of instruments...)

TO-GO etc...
thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/26/11 05:47 AM

Hi to all!

In this hot summer's days I'm like Sherlock Holmes, ... sicko

I found some very nice HD Pic's !
yeahyeahyeahyeahyeah

how guess which system is ???







And still no C-125 UNK Cabine Pic's !!!
pitchafitpitchafitpitchafitpitchafitpitchafitpitchafitpitchafitpitchafitpitchafit
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/26/11 06:00 AM

Hummmm...!!!
some one is ready to play SAM Simulator in this upgrade Kvadrat (SA-6 Gainful)
whoohoowhoohoowhoohoowhoohoowhoohoo



Hein ?? ... Hpasp??
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/26/11 08:40 AM

This is the Volhov cabin, can be found in the Hungarian Air Defense Museum.
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/26/11 08:49 AM

This is not a Kvadrat.
This is also Hungarian KUB-M3 that is upgraded to NATO standards. (SA-6)
thumbsup

KUB is still in Hungarian service, so its simulation is not planned.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/26/11 10:50 AM

Then it's you Hpasp, testing some VB6 routine in the main system before release ...... (LOL)!!__WinkNGrinWinkNGrinWinkNGrin


(this cabin seems to be functional !!??)
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/26/11 10:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
This is not a Kvadrat.
This is also Hungarian KUB-M3 that is upgraded to NATO standards. (SA-6)
thumbsup

KUB is still in Hungarian service, so its simulation is not planned.


I know that! biggrin
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/26/11 11:12 AM

Neva with a computer and XP system banghead , I suspect some "Hpasp" around ...


and with an Garmin GPS please yep !!! (who look like a phone at the right -Garmin Geko GPS!)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/26/11 06:14 PM

Then it's you Hpasp, testing some VB6 routine in the main system before release ...... (LOL)!!__WinkNGrinWinkNGrinWinkNGrin


(this cabin seems to be functional !!??)


That guy is called Dani Zoltan...
cowboy
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/26/11 08:58 PM



Did they?
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/26/11 11:15 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL


Did they?


apparently YES

" On 17 November 1964, the Soviet Politburo decided to send increased support to North Vietnam. The largest part of the Soviet adviser personnel were air defense officers. The Soviets provided the V-75 (SA-2GUIDELINE) missile system as the primary air defense system. They supplemented this with anti-aircraft guns and possibly some S-125 'Neva'(SA-3 GOA) missiles. Short-range air defenseweapons included the Strela 2 (SA-7 GRAIL) shoulder-fired missiles. The Soviet advisers primary mission was to train the North Vietnamese to use the Soviet equipment. The Soviets wore North Vietnamese uniforms while they performed their duties. The DRVN had a nation-wide integrated air-defense system with the bulk of assets in the north."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/vietnam/nva-ad-sam.htm
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 07:02 AM

Thanks. There is some contradictory information about that.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 08:01 AM

There is some contradictory information about that.

Please download the new documentation set (V2).
Here you can find all system exports per country/year.
thumbsup

SA-75MK Dvina “three van” (SA-2B/F)
Vietnam 1965-16+1*, 1966-18+1*, 1967-42+2*, 1968-4, 1969-2, 1972-12
* means training system

S-75M* Volhov (SA-2E)
Vietnam 1979-8, 1980-3, 1982-3, 1985-4, 1986-8, 1987-10

S-125 Neva (SA-3)
Vietnam 1972-4, 1973-8, 1979-9, 1980-3, 1981-1, 1982-3, 1984-3, 1986-6, 1988-3
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 08:49 AM

Thanks, I got them. Just didn't have time to read them all smile

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
There is some contradictory information about that.

Please download the new documentation set (V2).
Here you can find all system exports per country/year.
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 09:20 AM

Btw, I found such a pic. A bit unusual one I think.

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 09:22 AM

probably the first stage.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 09:52 AM

Possibly, but still the photo is different from the usual propaganda photos which you could find in newspapers in the 80s.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
probably the first stage.
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 12:01 PM

I believe the SA 3 was a quantitative improvement to the older sa2 and would have been a nasty opponent had they appeared in numbers.

it was a medium altitude missile unlike the sa2
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 01:43 PM

Hpasp PLEASE! Add some pause/time compression function. Each time I'm playing a long scenario, my family comes back, somebody calls,
I have to open the door, etc. banghead

For crying out loud!
smile
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 04:08 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Hpasp PLEASE! Add some pause/time compression function. Each time I'm playing a long scenario, my family comes back, somebody calls,
I have to open the door, etc. banghead

For crying out loud!
smile



Ah your just crying because you have to go potty too much. Get a lap top ! hahaha
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 04:13 PM

No, I can get a catheter. And my friend's laptop doesn't support the required resolution smile

Playing the SAM sim in the toilet? Sounds like a blasphemy!!! smile
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 04:17 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
No, I can get a catheter. And my friend's laptop doesn't support the required resolution smile

Playing the SAM sim in the toilet? Sounds like a blasphemy!!! smile



LOL ! God doesn't mind if you don't. biggrin
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 04:21 PM

Maybe, but what if Hpasp stops adding new features?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Hpasp PLEASE! Add some pause/time compression function. Each time I'm playing a long scenario, my family comes back, somebody calls,
I have to open the door, etc. banghead

For crying out loud!
smile


So many people asked for it, that i will consider (pause/normal/2x/4x) time compression at the next release.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
No, I can get a catheter. And my friend's laptop doesn't support the required resolution smile

Playing the SAM sim in the toilet? Sounds like a blasphemy!!! smile

Going to the toilet, during wartime???
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 06:59 PM

I mean, to the latrine. I have to respect my uniform and keep my trousers clean, in case a Wild Weasel gets me.
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 06:59 PM

TREVOGAAA!! Pants up and run!
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 07:07 PM

Hi!
Hpasp, why there is no teregova or (terevoga) in s-125 exitstageleft
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 07:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Hpasp PLEASE! Add some pause/time compression function. Each time I'm playing a long scenario, my family comes back, somebody calls,
I have to open the door, etc. banghead

For crying out loud!
smile


So many people asked for it, that i will consider (pause/normal/2x/4x) time compression at the next release.


Can you do it for real time life! it will be thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Manual target tracking is not simulated.
There is one huge inherited limitation of this sim...
... our Fire Control officer has only one hand. (one mouse)

In real life, 5+ people is working in these cabins, and all of their hands are full.
thumbsup


Can you give us some summarize how work this Manual target tracking mode, -please yep !-


Can we hope answer for this (please)! reading
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 07:14 PM

Come on, stop screaming! You almost scared me sh...less!

Originally Posted By: vintorez
TREVOGAAA!! Pants up and run!
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 09:30 PM

Hi!

I found this Pic some where on one site ....but,

I doubt for this fan song, I found it only in this site

or is it some modified version?

what do you think, Master?
Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/27/11 11:05 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
TREVOGAAA!! Pants up and run!


Bill Cosby "First you say it, then you do it.." biggrin
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 05:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi!
Hpasp, why there is no teregova or (terevoga) in s-125 exitstageleft


Its on a panel, that is not modelled.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 05:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Manual target tracking is not simulated.
There is one huge inherited limitation of this sim...
... our Fire Control officer has only one hand. (one mouse)

In real life, 5+ people is working in these cabins, and all of their hands are full.
thumbsup


Can you give us some summarize how work this Manual target tracking mode, -please yep !-


Can we hope answer for this (please)! reading


The elevation manual angle tracker is sitting first. (check the Vietnamese photo)
He has only the epsilon screen, always in 5km magnification, and the karat tv.
Them sits the range tracker. He can choose the epsilon, or the beta image to his screen.
The last one is the azimuth tracker with a tv also.
They have to track the target between two line (rather than a boresight).
With their big wheels, they change the snr rotation speed, rather than setting its direction.
The neva is similar, just there the two manual tracker is called fi1, fi2, and the fco is the range tracker. (thus the bigger wheel)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 05:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi!

I found this Pic some where on one site ....but,

I doubt for this fan song, I found it only in this site

or is it some modified version?

what do you think, Master?

Please...
... Im not master at all.

That is the Chinese version of the Dvina, called 'tiger song'.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 07:17 AM

Behold!
We should all learn modesty and humility from our Master!
The Master of SAM Simulation!

biggrin

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Kairo

what do you think, Master?

Please...
... Im not master at all.

Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 09:21 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Behold!
We should all learn modesty and humility from our Master!
The Master of SAM Simulation!

biggrin

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Kairo

what do you think, Master?

Please...
... Im not master at all.



No man choose to be Master, .... but Mastering choose her Man !
kneeldown

and thank's for reply this question ... only Masters reply 1/10 of questions!
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 09:24 AM

New Video Just uploaded !

Part 11 & 12 of "Hüter des Luftraumes" (no idea what's mean!)
nice Krug demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRj5FkWHC68
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dV9oJq_UJg

I hope this man still in uploading new videos!
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 10:23 AM

They told me it means "defenders of the airspace"

Originally Posted By: Kairo
"Hüter des Luftraumes" (no idea what's mean!)
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
They told me it means "defenders of the airspace"

Originally Posted By: Kairo
"Hüter des Luftraumes" (no idea what's mean!)

It seems logic, thanks !
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 02:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
The elevation manual angle tracker is sitting first. (check the Vietnamese photo)
He has only the epsilon screen, always in 5km magnification, and the karat tv.
Them sits the range tracker. He can choose the epsilon, or the beta image to his screen.
The last one is the azimuth tracker with a tv also.
They have to track the target between two line (rather than a boresight).
With their big wheels, they change the snr rotation speed, rather than setting its direction.
The neva is similar, just there the two manual tracker is called fi1, fi2, and the fco is the range tracker. (thus the bigger wheel)

not really understood all thing, but so ... I'm lucky to be answered! duck
Thank's for reply!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
The elevation manual angle tracker is sitting first. (check the Vietnamese photo)
He has only the epsilon screen, always in 5km magnification, and the karat tv.
Them sits the range tracker. He can choose the epsilon, or the beta image to his screen.
The last one is the azimuth tracker with a tv also.
They have to track the target between two line (rather than a boresight).
With their big wheels, they change the snr rotation speed, rather than setting its direction.
The neva is similar, just there the two manual tracker is called fi1, fi2, and the fco is the range tracker. (thus the bigger wheel)

not really understood all thing, but so ... I'm lucky to be answered! duck
Thank's for reply!

Just keep asking... thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 05:56 PM

Hpasp, are you sure?
We'll keep asking... for time compression, 3D graphics, S-300... smile
Ok just kidding.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Just keep asking... thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 07:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Just keep asking... thumbsup

there are several questions in "waiting list", already posted,
but still not answered yet!
maybe you are so busy (with vacation or SA-2), and just answer important questions only!

(I'm waiting for Krug (SA-4B) and V-200VE (SA-5B) to start Fr - Ar translation)
translation of SA-2 and SA-3 go well, (80% , 60% for FR), (50% , 40% for Ar)
but still very huge work in case of a lot of informations in manuals,
I have no prob. with technical words in both languages but maybe
manuals need some reorganisation, I'm working in translation and "some fine Idea" to keep
manual's easy to read and understood and light, .... reading
even the Idea of MK_PL in adding some important information discussed in this forum,
(but not important for operators players), is in my to do list in this Idea ...
when you see the fist release of this Idea, you will be happy (I hope)
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 08:45 PM

this is the preview of my "Idea", I still working on it, with tree languages,


when it will be ready with "Core" information, Hpasp can released it, (if he want)
in this stage, i'm working with this huge of information under my hands ..
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 08:51 PM

Yet another question... as regards the Giant Reach scenario.

I'm tracking the SR-71 (target No 1301) with the use of IADS. But then I changed my mind and I wanted to track another target, for example 1306, 3203 or 3304. But it seems impossible. I clicked the red buttons of AC3, V-MD, D-MD, CZU VKL, etc., but I can't track another target. Can't move the speed gate or change radar bearing.
I even switched to the KI-2202V panel ('W') and started to move the switches from GOTOV and POLN to VYKL, to no avail.
The radar was still working.
Pressing the red buttons - no effect (except for the second from the left, of course).

Well, maybe I'm doing something wrong. So:
- is it possible to shoot down any other plane in this scenario?
- is it possible to switch to another target and track it with the use of IADS?

No more questions so far smile
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 08:54 PM

The cover looks niiiiice.


Originally Posted By: Kairo
this is the preview of my "Idea", I still working on it, with tree languages,


when it will be ready with "Core" information, Hpasp can released it, (if he wont)
in this stage, i'm working with this huge of information under my hands ..
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/28/11 09:11 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Niiiiice.
Will there be separate language versions or you will mix all the languages together? smile
Sorry for that cruel joke smile

Mix all the languages together will be 100x difficult to do!



It will be in Tree separate Languages, and sorry for others languages,I know only these tree!
and only if Hpasp want to released it !

just few Pic's of Fr Translation









all manuals will be logically coloured to help understood of "means" !

this is the finest Idea! what do think about!
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 05:09 AM

This is commendable. Will you add information from the forum as well?

Originally Posted By: Kairo

this is the finest Idea! what do think about!
Posted By: arkhangelsk

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 05:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
The elevation manual angle tracker is sitting first. (check the Vietnamese photo)
He has only the epsilon screen, always in 5km magnification, and the karat tv.
Them sits the range tracker. He can choose the epsilon, or the beta image to his screen.
The last one is the azimuth tracker with a tv also.
They have to track the target between two line (rather than a boresight).
With their big wheels, they change the snr rotation speed, rather than setting its direction.
The neva is similar, just there the two manual tracker is called fi1, fi2, and the fco is the range tracker. (thus the bigger wheel)


Would it possible to simulate at least some of this fun like this (on Volhov) - this example assumes you want to play the Range Tracker:
1) Designate the target the I-32V and I-62V positions as normal (line up, then right click) in elevation and azimuth, but DO NOT lock range. Alternatively, you can have the correct range-rate set initially (so you only have to correct for changes rather than setting it up from zero) by briefly locking up range and then breaking it)
2) Jump to Range Tracking Screen and chase the target with the range-rate wheel. Elevation and Azimuth are effectively in AS-AP.
3) If you want to leave Range Tracking (to play Elevation tracker or to prepare missiles), if your boresight is on the target, you can right click to shift to AS-AP, then you can leave. Otherwise, the range rate will be the last input value and will deviate from the target.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 07:05 AM

there are several questions in "waiting list", already posted,
but still not answered yet!
maybe you are so busy (with vacation or SA-2), and just answer important questions only!

(I'm waiting for Krug (SA-4B) and V-200VE (SA-5B) to start Fr - Ar translation)
translation of SA-2 and SA-3 go well, (80% , 60% for FR), (50% , 40% for Ar)
but still very huge work in case of a lot of informations in manuals,
I have no prob. with technical words in both languages but maybe
manuals need some reorganisation, I'm working in translation and "some fine Idea" to keep
manual's easy to read and understood and light, .... reading
even the Idea of MK_PL in adding some important information discussed in this forum,
(but not important for operators players), is in my to do list in this Idea ...
when you see the fist release of this Idea, you will be happy (I hope)



Actually Im on vacation dance , and my handheld has sometimes problems to download pages with big pictures.
Middle of next week, I will be back.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 07:11 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Hpasp, are you sure?
We'll keep asking... for time compression, 3D graphics, S-300... smile
Ok just kidding.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Just keep asking... thumbsup



I have no problem to write an S-300 simulator, just need a few things...
... firing manuals, photos of the instrument panel, and somebody who already launched a V-500 missile in real life (firing range is ok).
thumbsup

ps: I would launch all target drones in Asuluk at the same time, and engage those with 12 missiles parallel.
grunt
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 07:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
this is the preview of my "Idea", I still working on it, with tree languages,


when it will be ready with "Core" information, Hpasp can released it, (if he want)
in this stage, i'm working with this huge of information under my hands ..


thumbsup
It is a HUGE work, that you started.
I will be honored to release it.
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 07:26 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Yet another question... as regards the Giant Reach scenario.

I'm tracking the SR-71 (target No 1301) with the use of IADS. But then I changed my mind and I wanted to track another target, for example 1306, 3203 or 3304. But it seems impossible. I clicked the red buttons of AC3, V-MD, D-MD, CZU VKL, etc., but I can't track another target. Can't move the speed gate or change radar bearing.
I even switched to the KI-2202V panel ('W') and started to move the switches from GOTOV and POLN to VYKL, to no avail.
The radar was still working.
Pressing the red buttons - no effect (except for the second from the left, of course).

Well, maybe I'm doing something wrong. So:
- is it possible to shoot down any other plane in this scenario?
- is it possible to switch to another target and track it with the use of IADS?

No more questions so far smile


It is not really discussed in the documentation, so...
... the third program of the Plamja-KV (Manual page 17 point 3) is the

Target tracking
In this mode, the Plamja-KV is continuously calculating the target's predicted path, and figuring the firing solution based on this information.


If the target is lost, or the target tracking is discontinued, the Plamja goes into the tracking of the predicted path.
This mode is indicated by the Prolong lamp.
Manual Page 30 point 6.

Just press the red button below, to discontinue the running of No3 program.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 07:34 AM

Originally Posted By: arkhangelsk


Would it possible to simulate at least some of this fun like this (on Volhov) - this example assumes you want to play the Range Tracker:
1) Designate the target the I-32V and I-62V positions as normal (line up, then right click) in elevation and azimuth, but DO NOT lock range. Alternatively, you can have the correct range-rate set initially (so you only have to correct for changes rather than setting it up from zero) by briefly locking up range and then breaking it)
2) Jump to Range Tracking Screen and chase the target with the range-rate wheel. Elevation and Azimuth are effectively in AS-AP.
3) If you want to leave Range Tracking (to play Elevation tracker or to prepare missiles), if your boresight is on the target, you can right click to shift to AS-AP, then you can leave. Otherwise, the range rate will be the last input value and will deviate from the target.


Adding one manual range tracker station would be similar size of work, than adding a completely new SAM system.
At the beginning, the vote went for more systems rather, and it is more fun for me also. yep
In the far-far future, the addition of network game is possible (currently just blocked out) but in this case operating more batteries by the networked users at wartime scenario is still more fun, than operating only one battery with more people.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 07:54 AM

Kairo, could you add it to your Compendium please? smile

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


It is not really discussed in the documentation, so...
... the third program of the Plamja-KV (Manual page 17 point 3) is the

Target tracking
In this mode, the Plamja-KV is continuously calculating the target's predicted path, and figuring the firing solution based on this information.


If the target is lost, or the target tracking is discontinued, the Plamja goes into the tracking of the predicted path.
This mode is indicated by the Prolong lamp.
Manual Page 30 point 6.

Just press the red button below, to discontinue the running of No3 program.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 07:58 AM

Gentlemen, please have a look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1mu2k6M-es

Now you can laugh at me smile
Comments will be welcome.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 08:06 AM

And Kairo, we don't want to work you to death, you know, but maybe the old forum contains useful information as well:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3181836/1.html

Don't forget that you have to eat and sleep as well! smile
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 10:08 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
This is commendable. Will you add information from the forum as well?


this is why I have this Idea, of course, all information will be added one by one with logical
classification in this manual, to be easy to found and used!

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
And Kairo, we don't want to work you to death, you know, but maybe the old forum contains useful information as well:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3181836/1.html

Don't forget that you have to eat and sleep as well!


yes, from our own forum,
and from the first forum for SAM sim in this site:
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3181836/1.html

and also from these one also:
http://forum.index.hu/Article/showArticle?t=9120320
http://forum.fortifikace.net/viewtopic.php?t=574&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180


and all interesting info from some unavoidable site :
http://peters-ada.de/index.htm
http://www.ausairpower.net/
http://infowsparcie.net/wria/menu/pzr.htm


Don't expect this release in few days screwy
I'have working on it since one month, and "basal ready information" in all manuals not ready yet,

All interesting forums or site links are welcome, (not harming links mycomputer)
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 10:12 AM

Man, this is going to be a bestseller smile
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 10:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

It is a HUGE work, that you started.
I will be honored to release it.
thumbsup


I have done it before, several times in my work area, ... to success
just be patient and have a "guideline how to work", - a programmer's know that-

you can help me with answering my questions with more detailed explanation possible,
(questions about non used panel in S-125 was for this purpose, and same questions are coming for
all others stuff (Volhov, Dvina, -may be desna-, Krug, Vega, Shilka ..... ), just be patient ...
all questions all coming !!
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 10:42 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Man, this is going to be a bestseller smile


I really hope that
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 10:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Adding one manual range tracker station would be similar size of work, than adding a completely new SAM system.
At the beginning, the vote went for more systems rather, and it is more fun for me also. yep
In the far-far future, the addition of network game is possible (currently just blocked out) but in this case operating more batteries by the networked users at wartime scenario is still more fun, than operating only one battery with more people.

For me, adding personalize map for unknown situation will add a 4 Dimension to the Simulator
in this case: how did you made the map in SAM sim??
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 12:47 PM

Err... In the Tallinn scenario, long after the SR-71 has crashed, it still can be seen on the Tall King radar screen.
A bug?
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 03:08 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Err... In the Tallinn scenario, long after the SR-71 has crashed, it still can be seen on the Tall King radar screen.
A bug?


no I just think that no body said to him that the SR-71 is crashed(by you) .... hahahahahahahahahahahaha
as a P-18 who no body said to him that this target is an stealth target ......... yepyepyepyep

this reply is just for LOL biggrin
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 06:38 PM

First off it's not an early warning radar. You're actually turning on your targeting radar. When you power the system up and put it into Running Mode, you're activating the Tall King radar. The three position covered switch is for the targeting radar.

2. I set it for mach 3 as that's roughly how fast the SR-71 is flying.
3. You can't really detect the SR-71 with your targeting radar until it's ~180-220 km and acquiring it ~180 gives you plenty of time for the Nonius, while also reducing the amount of time you're on air. Not to mention you can't engage the SR-71 until it's ~150 km anyways.
4. I'm almost positive the S-200 uses a cooling system for it's missiles. Anyways, if you spin up the missiles when the SR-71 is ~200 km you'll probably be launching them within 2 minutes.
5. The reason I only use 1 missile for this engagement is simple; no US aircraft has ever been fired on by an S-200 before. Therefore, the SR-71 will never even know it's been engaged and thus won't be maneuvering/evading. Of course in real life I'm sure the CO would've ordered 3 missiles fired.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/29/11 07:32 PM

Ok acknowledged.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/30/11 07:39 AM

2. I set it for mach 3 as that's roughly how fast the SR-71 is flying.

It flies Mach 3, but you are setting radial speed, so it should be bit lower.

5. The reason I only use 1 missile for this engagement is simple; no US aircraft has ever been fired on by an S-200 before. Therefore, the SR-71 will never even know it's been engaged and thus won't be maneuvering/evading. Of course in real life I'm sure the CO would've ordered 3 missiles fired.

SR71 was a high prized target, so I bet than in a case of receiving firing order, a battery would launch all missiles possible.
(more than 6)

5. The reason I only use 1 missile for this engagement is simple; no US aircraft has ever been fired on by an S-200 before. Therefore, the SR-71 will never even know it's been engaged and thus won't be maneuvering/evading

Launching a Vega missile is not detectable by RWR's. thumbsup
The only time US NAVY faced the Libyan S-200, they sent forward the Ticonderoga ships to detect the huge missile while flying.
(they did it successfully)
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/30/11 08:54 AM

I have an impression that in the sim, jamming aircraft generally do not change their altitude.
Is it so? Is it a merciful feature so that we could shoot them down? smile
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/30/11 11:09 AM

Hi to all!
fearful.fearful.fearful

eek.eek.eek.eek

eek2.eek2.eek2.eek2.eek2.eek2.eek2.eek2.eek2.eek2.eek2.eek2


for several weeks I worked very Hard to upgrade some oldish Volhov, and now it's ready to be used!
if you are ready Hpasp, you can add it to next release of SAM Sim.thumbsup

How can guess what is this???
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/30/11 11:16 AM

Is this in the USA?
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/30/11 12:35 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Is this in the USA?

is it printed Made in USA ??
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/30/11 01:11 PM

Maybe a training facility.
Or a playground in your courtyard smile
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/30/11 01:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
5. The reason I only use 1 missile for this engagement is simple; no US aircraft has ever been fired on by an S-200 before. Therefore, the SR-71 will never even know it's been engaged and thus won't be maneuvering/evading

Launching a Vega missile is not detectable by RWR's. thumbsup
The only time US NAVY faced the Libyan S-200, they sent forward the Ticonderoga ships to detect the huge missile while flying.
(they did it successfully)


Oh, I meant that since no US aircraft had ever been shot at by an S-200 they wouldn't know they'd need an AWACS or something with a very powerful radar to spot the launch. I'm sure at that time they assumed it would spike RWR just as all previous Russian SAMs did.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/30/11 01:38 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Maybe a training facility.
Or a playground in your courtyard smile


just waiting for the Guru opinion, then I will tell you !
I promise!

Hum Master ? some idea about this transformer ?"
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/30/11 02:31 PM

http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/exercises.htm
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/30/11 11:02 PM

On searching for Shilka Pics with Google, I found one in British Land,
and I found it with it this interesting Pics, in this site:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imshafted/718107010/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imshafted/717197677/in/photostream/

then interesting other familiar thing's!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imshafted/717253363/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imshafted/718403880/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imshafted/717532051/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imshafted/717533629/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imshafted/717536233/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imshafted/717536233/sizes/o/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imshafted/718411808/sizes/o/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imshafted/717544853/sizes/o/in/photostream/

with deep research with Google, I found more:
http://reocities.com/Pentagon/quarters/3996/Equip.html
http://reocities.com/Pentagon/quarters/3996/T1e_f.html
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafspadeadam/aboutus/t1.cfm
http://www.usdynamicscorp.com/electronic_services/index.asp?mystr=platforms

Hey Man, our technologies are Stolen !!

Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/31/11 12:44 AM

Even neva is present

http://www.det6.com/pic2.htm


Volhov model


Dvina model


Posted By: Brealistic

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/31/11 04:03 AM

I just love looking at all these photos and the great info here. thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/31/11 12:50 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
I have an impression that in the sim, jamming aircraft generally do not change their altitude.
Is it so? Is it a merciful feature so that we could shoot them down? smile


Nope.

The SR71 were simply not able to change its altitude quickly, otherwise it would stall.
The B52 pilots over Hanoi were threatened with court-martial if they break the formation.

F4 will change altitude at their will...
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/31/11 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi to all!

How can guess what is this???


I guess for a Weasel training aid, probable a Tolicha peak (Nevada [Area-51])?
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/31/11 03:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

The B52 pilots over Hanoi were threatened with court-martial if they break the formation..


Wow, that's pretty dumb. Altho, I don't imagine a B-52 would be able to maneuver very well. I'm defiantly looking forward to seeing what kind of tricks the SA-5 has to deal with SEAD.

grunt
Posted By: Cat

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/31/11 03:22 PM

The reason for that was for defensive equipment and rear gun coverage. If aircraft left the formation it changed the coverage of their ECM gear and left aircraft more vulnerable, and also left holes in their gun coverage for the rear guns.

Miao, Cat
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/31/11 07:44 PM

Haven't checked if it's like that in the sim, but (from Wikipedia):

'Once the aircraft had dropped their bombs, they were to execute what SAC termed "post-target turns" (PTT) to the west. These turns had two unfortunate consequences for the bombers: the B-52s would be turning into a strong headwind, slowing their ground speed by 100 knots (185 km/h) and prolonging their stay in the target area and the PTT would point the emitter antennas of their EW systems away from the radars they were attempting to jam, degrading the effectiveness of the cells, as well as showing the largest radar cross-section to the missile guidance radars.'

On 19th December, if I'm not mistaken, they turn E.
Posted By: Muggs

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/31/11 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi to all!

How can guess what is this???


I guess for a Weasel training aid, probable a Tolicha peak (Nevada [Area-51])?


Actually looks like this photo was taken from RAF Spadeadam.



http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafspadeadam/aboutus/index.cfm
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 07/31/11 11:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Muggs
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi to all!

How can guess what is this???


I guess for a Weasel training aid, probable a Tolicha peak (Nevada [Area-51])?


Actually looks like this photo was taken from RAF Spadeadam.



http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafspadeadam/aboutus/index.cfm


Same picture site !
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafspadeadam/gallery/aircraftandequipment.cfm?viewmedia=10
thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
( But already discovered place !)



Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/01/11 04:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Cat
The reason for that was for defensive equipment and rear gun coverage. If aircraft left the formation it changed the coverage of their ECM gear and left aircraft more vulnerable, and also left holes in their gun coverage for the rear guns.

Miao, Cat


Ah, that makes sense. Still, a court martial seems a bit excessive.

Moo, Chris
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/03/11 06:14 PM

Hi All,

I'm back from holiday, and planning a new minor release with time compression functionality, using the keys...
F1 - stop / play
F2 - 2x time compression
F3 - 3x time compression
F4 - 4x time compression

Br,
Hpasp

ps: If I skipped some questions, please repeat it.
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/03/11 06:37 PM

You want more questions? You sure? Brave man! smile

Here are some old ones:

In the Tallinn scenario, long after the SR-71 has crashed, it still can be seen on the Tall King radar screen.
A bug?

Yet another question... as regards the Giant Reach scenario.

It seems that it is impossible to turn the systems off (i.e. to get back to the state at the very beginning of the scenario). I even switched to the KI-2202V panel ('W') and started to move the switches from GOTOV and POLN to VYKL, to no avail.
The radar was still working.
Pressing the red buttons - no effect (except for the second from the left, of course).

And is it possible to shoot down any other plane in this scenario?
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/03/11 06:46 PM

Ok, this is a really good one smile
Don't you think we should hear a sonic boom when a Mach>1 target (e.g. Koliber in Ustka) is flying near our site?
Lol
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/03/11 07:27 PM

You want more questions? You sure? Brave man! smile

Here are some old ones:

In the Tallinn scenario, long after the SR-71 has crashed, it still can be seen on the Tall King radar screen.
A bug?


Should be a bug. I will check and fix it.

Yet another question... as regards the Giant Reach scenario.

It seems that it is impossible to turn the systems off (i.e. to get back to the state at the very beginning of the scenario). I even switched to the KI-2202V panel ('W') and started to move the switches from GOTOV and POLN to VYKL, to no avail.
The radar was still working.
Pressing the red buttons - no effect (except for the second from the left, of course).


Proper turn off method is not documented, and not implemented at any of the systems.


And is it possible to shoot down any other plane in this scenario?


Yes. All targets are vulnerable in the sim. All are flying precise historical routes, so if you cannot kill those, than CIA made a good job during preparation.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/03/11 07:29 PM

Ok, this is a really good one smile
Don't you think we should hear a sonic boom when a Mach>1 target (e.g. Koliber in Ustka) is flying near our site?
Lol


Nope!

Koliber fuel is burnt out long ago when it reaches the range of the SNR, and only falling ballistic.

Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/03/11 07:36 PM

Clever... But I'm sure there are other supersonic targets in the sim smile
Thanks for the answers.


Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Ok, this is a really good one smile
Don't you think we should hear a sonic boom when a Mach>1 target (e.g. Koliber in Ustka) is flying near our site?
Lol


Nope!

Koliber fuel is burnt out long ago when it reaches the range of the SNR, and only falling ballistic.

Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/03/11 09:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Proper turn off method is not documented, and not implemented at any of the systems.


You're forgetting the SA-4! If anyone is interested I could post a shutdown procedure tutorial. As for the Giant Reach scenario, I'm sure you're thinking about bagging yourself an AWACS, sadly none of the batteries ever get a shot at those pesky AWACS.

Also, welcome back tovarich Hpasp!
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/03/11 09:22 PM

Why not, post it. Kairo will love it! smile

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail

You're forgetting the SA-4! If anyone is interested I could post a shutdown procedure tutorial.
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/03/11 10:20 PM

So, you want to shut down your SA-4 the proper way, huh?

After you're finished engaging targets shut everything down as normal.


Select the manual radar mode, and rotate it back to it's starting position. Next, flip the DHV three position switch to it's lower position. Using the manual control, lower the radar to it's lowest elevation.


Lower the antenna tower and select the "IIHC" operation mode of the Pat Hand radar, doing so will extinguish the right row of lights, and illuminate the left row. Finally, engage the travel brake.


And that's all there is to it! grunt
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/03/11 11:39 PM

OMG, SO MUCH INFORMATION!
10 pages in just one or two weeks! Kairo'll doom us all (not if he complete that bealtiful complementary information manual) biggrin
I'd help you looking for information already posted on the forums, so you won't need to ask EVERYTHING again to Hpasp (I'm sopposing you didn't it already...)


To Hpasp:
Please, send me the answer for me question regarding the translation, and the email with the Word text...
Thank you!

Please, keep you all the good questions (and answers).
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 04:16 AM

A few questions for Hpasp.

1. As you develop more modern scenarios, will we start to see more evasion from the target aircraft? For example, will aircraft simply turn away and ruin the engagement if you come online too soon? Or if fired on by a SAM that they can't out run, will the AI employ defensive BFM in an attempt to bleed off missile energy?

2. Would you consider creating more "what if" scenarios? If nothing else, they could provide more options for the SA-5. Not to mention they'd require a lot less research and would be much faster to make.

3. Do you have any interest in the older US systems? Would you consider eventually adding the Nike Hercules or MIM-23 Hawk? The only problems I could foresee with these are the potential lack of information available for the MIM-23, and the fact that the Nike was primarily nuclear. :/
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 05:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Hi All,

I'm back from holiday, and planning a new minor release with time compression functionality, using the keys...
F1 - stop / play
F2 - 2x time compression
F3 - 3x time compression
F4 - 4x time compression

Br,
Hpasp

ps: If I skipped some questions, please repeat it.
thumbsup

welcom back!
compression time is an good Idea,
what about an old Idea

Originally Posted By: Kairo

According to Col. Zoltan Dani, if you are On Air more than 20seconds, you are dead...

Then we need other pointing system more efficient, or tracking mouse, ...

Hummm...... , i have an idea why not an other key's to use:
for exemple in Z screen :

I(+) - P(-) for Target Elevation
H(+) - J(-) for Target Range (Boresight)
L(+) - M(-) for Target Azimuth

if your Prog is with VB6, i' think it easy to add.
we will be always winner
what do you think Hpasp ? (for next release?) transformer
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 06:25 AM

That's a good idea I think. It would encourage us to spend less time on air.

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
A few questions for Hpasp.

1. As you develop more modern scenarios, will we start to see more evasion from the target aircraft? For example, will aircraft simply turn away and ruin the engagement if you come online too soon? Or if fired on by a SAM that they can't out run, will the AI employ defensive BFM in an attempt to bleed off missile energy?

Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 07:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo

I(+) - P(-) for Target Elevation
H(+) - J(-) for Target Range (Boresight)
L(+) - M(-) for Target Azimuth


Imo the arrow keys would be better.

Up = Increase elevation (slow)
Up + Shift = Increase elevation (fast)
Down = Decrease elevation (slow)
Down + Shift = Decrease elevation (fast)
Right = Azimuth right (slow)
Right + Shift = Azimuth right (fast)
Left = Azimuth left (slow)
Left + Shift = Azimuth left (fast)
Keypad + key = Increase range (slow)
Keypad + key + Shift = Increase range (fast)
Keypad - key = Reduce range (slow)
Keypad - key + Shift Reduce range (fast)

I really hope this will be implemented. For example, when you're engaging a jamming target with the SA-5, you have to adjust the altitude gauge with a control on a different screen. While this is very annoying I think the altitude gauge is in the correct place. It wouldn't make much sense if it were located anywhere else, same for adjusting the Square Pair elevation, the elevation indicator wouldn't really "fit in" any place else. However, being able to move the radar without having to even be on the same screen would eliminate this problem entirely.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 07:31 AM

I was about to mention it as well.
I thought the problem could be solved by displaying the value in degrees somewhere on the X screen.

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail

For example, when you're engaging a jamming target with the SA-5, you have to adjust the altitude gauge with a control on a different screen. While this is very annoying I think the altitude gauge is in the correct place. It wouldn't make much sense if it were located anywhere else, same for adjusting the Square Pair elevation, the elevation indicator wouldn't really "fit in" any place else. However, being able to move the radar without having to even be on the same screen would eliminate this problem entirely.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 09:33 AM

A few questions for Hpasp.
1. As you develop more modern scenarios, will we start to see more evasion from the target aircraft? For example, will aircraft simply turn away and ruin the engagement if you come online too soon? Or if fired on by a SAM that they can't out run, will the AI employ defensive BFM in an attempt to bleed off missile energy?


Current F4 Weasel behavior is according to the historical procedures.
F16's will react differently. thumbsup


2. Would you consider creating more "what if" scenarios? If nothing else, they could provide more options for the SA-5. Not to mention they'd require a lot less research and would be much faster to make.

"what if" scenarios could be always debated, and there are so many interesting historical scenario...

3. Do you have any interest in the older US systems? Would you consider eventually adding the Nike Hercules or MIM-23 Hawk? The only problems I could foresee with these are the potential lack of information available for the MIM-23, and the fact that the Nike was primarily nuclear.

Nike is my personal favorite.
Most required info could be found here:
http://ed-thelen.org/
Just missing photos and free time.
cowboy
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 09:45 AM

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
Originally Posted By: Kairo

I(+) - P(-) for Target Elevation
H(+) - J(-) for Target Range (Boresight)
L(+) - M(-) for Target Azimuth


Imo the arrow keys would be better.

Up = Increase elevation (slow)
Up + Shift = Increase elevation (fast)
Down = Decrease elevation (slow)
Down + Shift = Decrease elevation (fast)
Right = Azimuth right (slow)
Right + Shift = Azimuth right (fast)
Left = Azimuth left (slow)
Left + Shift = Azimuth left (fast)
Keypad + key = Increase range (slow)
Keypad + key + Shift = Increase range (fast)
Keypad - key = Reduce range (slow)
Keypad - key + Shift Reduce range (fast)

I really hope this will be implemented. For example, when you're engaging a jamming target with the SA-5, you have to adjust the altitude gauge with a control on a different screen. While this is very annoying I think the altitude gauge is in the correct place. It wouldn't make much sense if it were located anywhere else, same for adjusting the Square Pair elevation, the elevation indicator wouldn't really "fit in" any place else. However, being able to move the radar without having to even be on the same screen would eliminate this problem entirely.


Idea is noted, just keep developing it...
... keys for missile launch, high voltage on/off, narrow/wide beam, range mode selection...
(space is already reserved for the Shilka fire trigger)
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 11:00 AM

BTW, does anybody know any Wild Weasel sim? Could be interesting as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZuzaMy1ON8
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 04:07 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Why not, post it. Kairo will love it! smile

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail

You're forgetting the SA-4! If anyone is interested I could post a shutdown procedure tutorial.


Oh yes! All tutorial are welcome and will be present as pics and deep explanations in this manual
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
OMG, SO MUCH INFORMATION!
10 pages in just one or two weeks! Kairo'll doom us all (not if he complete that bealtiful complementary information manual) biggrin
I'd help you looking for information already posted on the forums, so you won't need to ask EVERYTHING again to Hpasp (I'm sopposing you didn't it already...)

Please, keep you all the good questions (and answers).


Just be patient, good work need a lot of times !, but I hope a very nice result, any tutorial or info help are welcome,
all what you want to add is welcome also, but just be patient for the first release!
this is the Holy month of "fasting" in our Muslim world, it's not easy to work with fasting, (specially because of very hot weather 41°), the capability to work is reduced now, ...

temperature inside home: 35°



I'd help you looking for information already posted on the forums,
What are you waiting for, Start it now, and collect similar information as one unit to be added !
Go .... ! Go .... ! Go .... ! ready
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 04:33 PM

Even Video tutorial already in Youtube will be added as Pics and deep explanations !
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 04:44 PM

I have a question not answered yet!, (you was in holidays!) about a maps in SAM sim

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Adding one manual range tracker station would be similar size of work, than adding a completely new SAM system.
At the beginning, the vote went for more systems rather, and it is more fun for me also. yep
In the far-far future, the addition of network game is possible (currently just blocked out) but in this case operating more batteries by the networked users at wartime scenario is still more fun, than operating only one battery with more people.

For me, adding personalize map for unknown situation will add a 4 Dimension to the Simulator
in this case: how did you made the map in SAM sim?
?

if it isn't "Secret Defence"!
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/04/11 05:56 PM

It seems that the clock on your TV also shows target bearing. 35 degrees.
Nice feature!

Originally Posted By: Kairo



Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 02:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Idea is noted, just keep developing it...
... keys for missile launch, high voltage on/off, narrow/wide beam, range mode selection...
(space is already reserved for the Shilka fire trigger)
thumbsup

I'm not sure if any other functions need to be bound to keys. I personally don't see any advantage to having a macro for firing, narrow/wide beam, or range modes. Having a macro for high voltage could be useful, but all other mentioned functions aren't rushed operations. All other mentioned functions are preformed from a screen with both a radar display and launch controls. Of course, the above is referring to the current systems. I'm sure if you think the Shilka requires a firing button, then it probably does. As for the high voltage, it could be assigned to the keypad * or / keys. I'm sure you would probably need to use both, as the SA-5 is not directly on/off, instead it's a three position switch.

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
I was about to mention it as well.
I thought the problem could be solved by displaying the value in degrees somewhere on the X screen.

At first I thought the same thing, but then I realized that it just wouldn't really "fit" anywhere, and would look completely out of place.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
"what if" scenarios could be always debated, and there are so many interesting historical scenario...

True, but currently there are only two scenarios for the SA-5. Don't get me wrong, I like both of them. The Operation Tallinn scenario is a good introduction to the SA-5, and demonstrates what almost certainly would've happened had an SR-71 tried to overfly, or simply played chicken with an SA-5 when the US had little knowledge of the system. Operation Giant Reach on the other hand, holds many interesting lessons. Such as how the SR-71 actually knows when you launch, and the entire trick of shooting it down in the first place. While both are interesting scenarios, there's little to do other than wait ~10 minutes for the pesky SR-71 to wander close enough.

I think it'd be nice to have a "fun" scenario for the SA-5. This scenario would probably consist of several long range engagements, along with some closer range targets. For example, a heavy bomber raid with escort jammers. You have to shoot down the jammers to get a shot at the non-jamming heavy bombers. There could be other shorter range targets such as Tomahawks, an F-117 or even a Scud being fired. Preferably, there would be an AWACS on station too close for it's own good. After all, who here doesn't want to shoot one of those pesky AWACS down? biggrin

Two other items of possible interest. #1 www.s-200.de no longer works. #2 New pretty picture!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 05:31 AM

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail

Two other items of possible interest. #1 www.s-200.de no longer works. #2 New pretty picture!


I prefer this one...
http://narod.ru/disk/22224441000/%D1%82%D0%BE%205%D0%9221%20%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81.djvu.html
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 06:02 AM

Perhaps, but it could be interpreted as if another operator was reading out the value for you.

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
I was about to mention it as well.
I thought the problem could be solved by displaying the value in degrees somewhere on the X screen.

At first I thought the same thing, but then I realized that it just wouldn't really "fit" anywhere, and would look completely out of place.

Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 06:32 AM

A pretty one indeed.
Kairo may like it, so...

(Clockwise)
Antena GSN = GSN antenna
Blok przelicznikow EMC = EMC (electro-mechanical) scalers block
Radiozapalnik = radio fuse
Autopilot = autopilot
Zbiornik azotu = nitrogen tank
Zbiornik plynu hydraulicznego = hydraulic liquid tank
Serwomechanizmy sterow = rudder servos
Silniki startowe w fazie zrzutu = boosters being jettisoned
Silnik marszowy = sustainer
Pokladowe zrodlo zasilania = on-board power unit
Zbiornik utleniacza PZZ = on-board power unit oxidizer tank
Zbiornik paliwa = fuel tank
Zbiornik sprezonego powietrza = compressed air tank
Zbiornik utleniacza = oxidizer tank
Zbiornik paliwa PZZ = on-board power unit fuel tank
Ladunek bojowy = explosive charge
Blok aparatury GSN = GSN apparatus block

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail




Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 07:30 AM


Wow, that's amazing!

On another note, I'll bet Hpasp would love to play with this:
http://www.radartutorial.eu/16.eccm/pic/p18jam.big.jpg

biggrin
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 08:35 AM

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail

On another note, I'll bet Hpasp would love to play with this:
http://www.radartutorial.eu/16.eccm/pic/p18jam.big.jpg

biggrin


Maybe, but I prefer real historical photo-shots of the real events...
... like these. (Vietnam December of 1972)
thumbsup



Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 09:04 AM

The things you manage to find never cease to surprise me. biggrin

Edit:

New question, http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/s200.htm claims that "In the Mideast, this missile successfully intercepted Israeli reconnaissance aircraft at a range of 190 km in the 1980's."

Is this true? Also, do you have any info on other S-200 shoot downs? The only one I ever heard about was the shoot down of that airliner..
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 10:07 AM

The things you manage to find never cease to surprise me. biggrin

This SIM is try to be more realistic, than your expectations. thumbsup
The testers are those who operated and fired it during their whole active life.
(This is why Im really-really against theoretical situations...)

During wartime/practice events, crew had to create periodical photo-shots of their indicators, for later analysis.
As these photos are no secret anymore, the SIM is really based on what the real crew seen.
(bit slow process, but real historical event participants used to say, this is what we seen than)
thumbsup

If you seen similar images at the SIM, than I would really thank.
smile
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 10:15 AM

New question, http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/s200.htm claims that "In the Mideast, this missile successfully intercepted Israeli reconnaissance aircraft at a range of 190 km in the 1980's."
Is this true? Also, do you have any info on other S-200 shoot downs? The only one I ever heard about was the shoot down of that airliner..


I read about it, but never seen any usual proof.
(most importantly indicator screen-shots, wrecks, etc...)

The Bekaa valley event are still under investigation, for possible future situations in the SIM...



... thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 10:31 AM

By the way Hpasp, is there any way to make the plotting board more readable in some scenarios (Linebacker II)? I.e. erase or highlight some paths.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 11:19 AM

By the way Hpasp, is there any way to make the plotting board more readable in some scenarios (Linebacker II)? I.e. erase or highlight some paths.

The question is again the same...
... you want realisms, or better playability.

The current plotting board implementation is still better than it was in reality.
nope
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 12:08 PM

That kind of explains the low SA-2 kill ratio in Vietnam.
I mean sometimes it's just difficult to read out the altitude of a jamming target.
And as regards simulations, they are always a compromise between realism and playability.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

The question is again the same...
... you want realisms, or better playability.

The current plotting board implementation is still better than it was in reality.
nope
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 12:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
Originally Posted By: Kairo

I(+) - P(-) for Target Elevation
H(+) - J(-) for Target Range (Boresight)
L(+) - M(-) for Target Azimuth


Imo the arrow keys would be better.

Up = Increase elevation (slow)
Up + Shift = Increase elevation (fast)
Down = Decrease elevation (slow)
Down + Shift = Decrease elevation (fast)
Right = Azimuth right (slow)
Right + Shift = Azimuth right (fast)
Left = Azimuth left (slow)
Left + Shift = Azimuth left (fast)
Keypad + key = Increase range (slow)
Keypad + key + Shift = Increase range (fast)
Keypad - key = Reduce range (slow)
Keypad - key + Shift Reduce range (fast)

I really hope this will be implemented. For example, when you're engaging a jamming target with the SA-5, you have to adjust the altitude gauge with a control on a different screen. While this is very annoying I think the altitude gauge is in the correct place. It wouldn't make much sense if it were located anywhere else, same for adjusting the Square Pair elevation, the elevation indicator wouldn't really "fit in" any place else. However, being able to move the radar without having to even be on the same screen would eliminate this problem entirely.


Idea is noted, just keep developing it...
... keys for missile launch, high voltage on/off, narrow/wide beam, range mode selection...
(space is already reserved for the Shilka fire trigger)
thumbsup


Hi!
Some thing are always annoying me when I use SAM Simulator, and I wouldn't talk about it,
(to not kill Hpasp in programing!), but I think know it's the time to talk about it!
look:
when we travel between different screen - to go to the different panel: EWR Scope, Plotting table(IADS), ...-
we use simple keys -W,X,C, Q,S, A,Z,Y- to navigate between, since beginning I ask my self, Why -W,X,C,Q,S,A,Z,Y- ??
not logic at all ! and not efficient for tactical mode, (in my humble view!), that's why I have this "wish" in my mind,
ONE PIC is more clear than thousand words: (Neva example with Up Down Left Right keys only)
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 12:22 PM

A key remapping option would help, but you know... Hpasp is probably busy enough.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 12:30 PM

Hi!
Some thing are always annoying me when I use SAM Simulator, and I wouldn't talk about it,
(to not kill Hpasp in programing!), but I think know it's the time to talk about it!
look:
when we travel between different screen - to go to the different panel: EWR Scope, Plotting table(IADS), ...-
we use simple keys -W,X,C, Q,S, A,Z,Y- to navigate between, since beginning I ask my self, Why -W,X,C,Q,S,A,Z,Y- ??
not logic at all ! and not efficient for tactical mode, (in my humble view!), that's why I have this "wish" in my mind,
ONE PIC is more clear than thousand words: (Neva example with Up Down Left Right keys only)


Hi,

When the writing of this simulation started 6 years ago, we made several decisions...
- The Russian writing above the switches should be readable, for the old FCO's.
- As the whole Volhov Panel would not fit into the screen, we need to be able to quickly look around...
... so the idea of switching with the mouse, looking with the buttons, borne.

Q - looking up
A - looking middle
Z/Y - looking down
W - plotting board - implemented later (in reality looking up left)
X - P18 - implemented later (in reality looking down left)
S - GShV panel (blocked in current releases)
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 01:11 PM

Actually I like that plotting board is so messed in the Vietnam scenario. It forces me to use P-18 radar intensively and it is bigger challenge.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 01:50 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
It seems that the clock on your TV also shows target bearing. 35 degrees.
Nice feature!
Originally Posted By: Kairo




really good observation ! sicko
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 02:24 PM

I have few questions, but they aren't directly related to the SIM...
1rst. What's exactly the GShV, and how it works?
2nd. How was done the engajement via-Karat optical channel? What were the procedures, what the operators saw, how was the scoope?

Kairo,
I'm translating first manual to portuguese, when I finnish it i'll begin to seek for the information already posted on the forum for you wink
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 02:59 PM

I have few questions, but they aren't directly related to the SIM...
1rst. What's exactly the GShV, and how it works?


When the KRUG was fielded in large numbers in the WARPACT, the US started the use of the Angular Jamming Technique.
This is mostly developed against the monopulse radars (SA-4/SA-5/SA-6/SA-8/SA-10, ...) but it can also confuse older TWS radars (SA-2/SA-3) also.

Thus the GSh instrument was developed, to counter these kind of jamming utilizing a special TWS technique.
For the Volhov, it was called GShV.
For the Neva, it was called GShN.

So far, this kind of jamming is not simulated in the SIM...
... and its technique is not discussed.
cowboy
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 03:12 PM

I have few questions, but they aren't directly related to the SIM...
2nd. How was done the engajement via-Karat optical channel? What were the procedures, what the operators saw, how was the scoope?


The Elevation, and Azimuth tracking was manual.
Guidance method is T/T.

Radio Proximity fuse was activated with RAB.ot.VM. method, or using radio-electronic measurement, but then the whole point was lost.

This is what Karat was seen during a Hercules engagement...

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 05:44 PM

SAM Simulator release plan

v922c is planned to be released within few weeks.
It will contain the Pause/2x/4x time compression, and some minor fixes.

v923 is planned to be released about the end of this year.
It is planned to contain the Dvina.

v924 is planned to be released during next year.
It is planned to contain the Silka.
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 09:12 PM

Thanks Hpasp!
When reading the manual again I saw things that scaped me the first time... Like: The Volhov series had added the optical channel later than the Dvina? Because looks like the first time Volhov had a TV camera was with S-75M3-OP, in 1983, but the Dvina had it since 1969, with the SA-75M Dvina “doghouse”. Or Am I wrong?

And I'm waiting for the answer regarding the S-300, if someone knows, please, I'd like to know smile
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 11:11 PM

Nice pictures as always. thumbsup

While playing around at Asuluk I noticed the AAR doesn't show if targets were jamming. This also led me to another thought; I remember you posted a .djvu file of SA-2 shooting reports. I'm assuming that every time a battery engages a target they fill out a form. What if you used that form as a template for the AAR? This might be a really bad idea, and/or not worth the time it would take to do it, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyways.
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/05/11 11:49 PM

AFAIK, there was a little smile difference between Dvina's and Volkhov's optical systems. Volkhow employed a TV camera, while Dvina used... two pairs of eyes (occupators of the 'doghouse') probably supplemented by some simple optics (scopes, binoculars? - I wonder, in order to see a plane from 20 km away, one should need huge magnification... Hpasp, how was the real range of optical tracking in Dvina, assuming perfect weather conditions?)
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 12:11 AM

Hpasp, small interface corrections needed (especially in Egyptian and Vietnam scenarios):

missile selection - pictures of 5Ja23 and 20DSU sometimes do not match the names, and newer versions of 5V27 appear on quad launchers (not the case in 1970/72, and not modelled in historical scenarios).

Present screen switch model (Z-X-C, A-S- etc.) is good: 1) it emulates real placement of the panels, and 2) I got used to that smile
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 12:13 AM

Redcoalition, what was your question regarding the S-300?
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 12:42 AM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
Present screen switch model (Z-X-C, A-S- etc.) is good: 1) it emulates real placement of the panels, and 2) I got used to that smile


Agreed. The other idea presented is somewhat flawed in that it's overly complex. Using either the arrow keys or the mouse to move around means you need to memorize all of the directions you can move from each panel. I'm on the SA-5 Tall King screen and I want to go to the IADS screen, so that would mean pressing right and up twice instead of simply pressing E. Also, this would use the arrow keys which means they can't be used to adjust the radar.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 01:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Hi!
Some thing are always annoying me when I use SAM Simulator, and I wouldn't talk about it,
(to not kill Hpasp in programing!), but I think know it's the time to talk about it!
look:
when we travel between different screen - to go to the different panel: EWR Scope, Plotting table(IADS), ...-
we use simple keys -W,X,C, Q,S, A,Z,Y- to navigate between, since beginning I ask my self, Why -W,X,C,Q,S,A,Z,Y- ??
not logic at all ! and not efficient for tactical mode, (in my humble view!), that's why I have this "wish" in my mind,
ONE PIC is more clear than thousand words: (Neva example with Up Down Left Right keys only)


Hi,

When the writing of this simulation started 6 years ago, we made several decisions...
- The Russian writing above the switches should be readable, for the old FCO's.
- As the whole Volhov Panel would not fit into the screen, we need to be able to quickly look around...
... so the idea of switching with the mouse, looking with the buttons, borne.

Q - looking up
A - looking middle
Z/Y - looking down
W - plotting board - implemented later (in reality looking up left)
X - P18 - implemented later (in reality looking down left)
S - GShV panel (blocked in current releases)





you know, some answers seems like illogic for me ..... because in the ground it have no sense !

then with deep observing ...... EUREKA !!! .....I found it ..... we are not using the same keyboard mapping,

I think you are using an QWERTY keyboard, and I'm using an AZERTY one!

with QWERTY keyboard it's right and logic.
with AZERTY one, your answers seems like illogic at all, and not efficient for tactical use mode,

and I do a test: with Arabic Keyboard we can't change between the screens !
(and may be all others non Latin keyboard will not work also! -Japanese. china, Hindi ...- )

I think Keys Up/Down, Right/Left is more compatible for all keyboards.

But even if we opt to use mouse directly to do "the slide" is a cool idea,
just click (or only put the mouse cursor for less 1sec), in extreme right or extreme left will automatically change the Panel !,
and same for up and down screen !

this Idea goes not to delete old keys stroke organisation! it will be added to it.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 02:15 AM

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
Originally Posted By: vintorez
Present screen switch model (Z-X-C, A-S- etc.) is good: 1) it emulates real placement of the panels, and 2) I got used to that smile


Agreed. The other idea presented is somewhat flawed in that it's overly complex. Using either the arrow keys or the mouse to move around means you need to memorize all of the directions you can move from each panel. I'm on the SA-5 Tall King screen and I want to go to the IADS screen, so that would mean pressing right and up twice instead of simply pressing E. Also, this would use the arrow keys which means they can't be used to adjust the radar.


Dear all!
for Vintorez:
you are right, for Qwerty Keyboard, but not if you use others keyboard mapping, maybe Azerty one !(try to use it..)

for NaiseFail:
I don't know if you have already see on the ground the real disposition of the panels,
if you work alone in one of this fire Cabin, you will see that you must pass along all panels to reach the ones you want!
you can't bypass panels in middle to jump directly to the ones you want, you must have in your mind the complete "Image"
of all panels and there dispositions in firing cabin, to be able to use it and to go to desired panel !, in reality you waste some times to reach panels.
and simply pressing ... a key, is not the real world! (it's my personal think!)


Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 02:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
SAM Simulator release plan

v922c is planned to be released within few weeks.
It will contain the Pause/2x/4x time compression, and some minor fixes.

v923 is planned to be released about the end of this year.
It is planned to contain the Dvina.

v924 is planned to be released during next year.
It is planned to contain the Silka.


I don't know why, but I feel all these releases will be more early .......... (I really hope!)
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 03:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
for NaiseFail:
I don't know if you have already see on the ground the real disposition of the panels,
if you work alone in one of this fire Cabin, you will see that you must pass along all panels to reach the ones you want!
you can't bypass panels in middle to jump directly to the ones you want, you must have in your mind the complete "Image"
of all panels and there dispositions in firing cabin, to be able to use it and to go to desired panel !, in reality you waste some times to reach panels.
and simply pressing ... a key, is not the real world! (it's my personal think!)


No offense, but your argument is invalid. Some things have to be abstracted and/or simplified simply because a computer simulation, no matter how realistic, can never function 100% like the real life system. The simpler solution to this would probably be for the SAM Sim installer to either ask for, or detect your keyboard layout and use a profile made for that type of keyboard.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 08:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Thanks Hpasp!
When reading the manual again I saw things that scaped me the first time... Like: The Volhov series had added the optical channel later than the Dvina? Because looks like the first time Volhov had a TV camera was with S-75M3-OP, in 1983, but the Dvina had it since 1969, with the SA-75M Dvina “doghouse”. Or Am I wrong?

And I'm waiting for the answer regarding the S-300, if someone knows, please, I'd like to know smile


What was the question?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Thanks Hpasp!
When reading the manual again I saw things that scaped me the first time... Like: The Volhov series had added the optical channel later than the Dvina? Because looks like the first time Volhov had a TV camera was with S-75M3-OP, in 1983, but the Dvina had it since 1969, with the SA-75M Dvina “doghouse”. Or Am I wrong?


Correct.
The Volhov/Neva/KRUG/KUB was much less susceptible against jamming, than the Dvina.
When different jamming techniques started to be used by the US, the Karat was added to these.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
AFAIK, there was a little smile difference between Dvina's and Volkhov's optical systems. Volkhow employed a TV camera, while Dvina used... two pairs of eyes (occupators of the 'doghouse') probably supplemented by some simple optics (scopes, binoculars? - I wonder, in order to see a plane from 20 km away, one should need huge magnification... Hpasp, how was the real range of optical tracking in Dvina, assuming perfect weather conditions?)


They had a fixed TZK telescope, and two wheels, that were connected to the FCO's elevation/azimuth wheel.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo


you know, some answers seems like illogic for me ..... because in the ground it have no sense !

then with deep observing ...... EUREKA !!! .....I found it ..... we are not using the same keyboard mapping,

I think you are using an QWERTY keyboard, and I'm using an AZERTY one!

with QWERTY keyboard it's right and logic.
with AZERTY one, your answers seems like illogic at all, and not efficient for tactical use mode,


Actually, we Hungarians has also a bit different keyboard layout QWERTZ, thus the Z/Y has common use.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 09:12 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
You want more questions? You sure? Brave man! smile

Here are some old ones:

In the Tallinn scenario, long after the SR-71 has crashed, it still can be seen on the Tall King radar screen.
A bug?


I checked it, and when the SR71 crashes, it disappears.
Could you be more specific? Screen-shots? ETC?

ps: I was able to angle track it at around 300km out (no range, no Nonius).
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 09:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
I have a question not answered yet!, (you was in holidays!) about a maps in SAM sim
if it isn't "Secret Defence"!


Adding new maps were easy, until the Digital Elevation Mesh was introduced...
... now it is quite a complex process...
sigh
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 09:54 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Gentlemen, please have a look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1mu2k6M-es

Now you can laugh at me smile
Comments will be welcome.


Can I add it to the SAMSIM website?
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 10:40 AM

I'll try to replicate the bug in the afternoon.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

I checked it, and when the SR71 crashes, it disappears.
Could you be more specific? Screen-shots? ETC?


Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 10:44 AM

Why not, if you think it can be useful. However, it is not 'perfect', it can only give sim users a general idea how to do it.

I was also recording a commentary but due to some problems with settings (I have two sound cards) it hasn't been recorded.
I will probably record another video when I have time.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Can I add it to the SAMSIM website?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 11:07 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Hpasp, are you sure?
We'll keep asking... for time compression, 3D graphics, S-300... smile
Ok just kidding.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Just keep asking... thumbsup


Time compression will be in the next minor release.
3D graphic ... lets see.
S-300 ... not yet.

Ok just kidding.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 11:40 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Haven't checked if it's like that in the sim, but (from Wikipedia):

'Once the aircraft had dropped their bombs, they were to execute what SAC termed "post-target turns" (PTT) to the west. These turns had two unfortunate consequences for the bombers: the B-52s would be turning into a strong headwind, slowing their ground speed by 100 knots (185 km/h) and prolonging their stay in the target area and the PTT would point the emitter antennas of their EW systems away from the radars they were attempting to jam, degrading the effectiveness of the cells, as well as showing the largest radar cross-section to the missile guidance radars.'

On 19th December, if I'm not mistaken, they turn E.


PTT is performed by the B52 targets of the Hanoi scenario of the SIM.
The reason of the B52 kills were rather in the use of the T/T method, not related to the PTT.

The B52's were hit well before the PTT, not while performing it. (it is much easier to track a straight flying target, than a turning one)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 11:42 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Why not, if you think it can be useful. However, it is not 'perfect', it can only give sim users a general idea how to do it.

I was also recording a commentary but due to some problems with settings (I have two sound cards) it hasn't been recorded.
I will probably record another video when I have time.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Can I add it to the SAMSIM website?


Any tutorial video is welcomed.
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 12:02 PM

Thanks for taking out suggestions into account!
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

v922c is planned to be released within few weeks.
It will contain the Pause/2x/4x time compression, and some minor fixes.

Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 12:07 PM

Why am I not surprised? After all, you are the one who made the sim, so...
there probably are cheat codes, God Mode, Hpasp Mode, F117_with_landing_gear_down mode, etc.
smile

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

ps: I was able to angle track it at around 300km out (no range, no Nonius).
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 12:16 PM

While trying to duplicate the 'radar bug' I might have found something else...
On the C screen.


Look carefully:

Here (upper right):

It might be a bug, appears to be dead.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 12:41 PM

I managed to replicate the 'radar bug'. Unfortunately.
In chronological order:






I waited for about 2 minutes after missile impact, but it was still visible (in various radar ranges).
Posted By: Lieste

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 01:46 PM

Wait longer...

No seriously - it will take a long time for the debris to reach the ground from 25km up... especially if the hit is good and the target breaks up early on in/prior to the descent.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 02:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Lieste
Wait longer...

No seriously - it will take a long time for the debris to reach the ground from 25km up... especially if the hit is good and the target breaks up early on in/prior to the descent.


is there any method to track elevations's crash with radar?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 02:06 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
I managed to replicate the 'radar bug'. Unfortunately.
I waited for about 2 minutes after missile impact, but it was still visible (in various radar ranges).


Could you please insert "X" and "C" screens also?
(and check page 30 of the manual?)

All Doppler radars are sensitive for low tangential velocity.
1. When the target angular velocity drops, the “RAZRES FM” (Switch on FM) red warning light (2) will illuminate.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 02:50 PM

You may be right, but height is already low or zero on the 3rd screenshot. And the plane was hit four times.
And still I kept waiting after taking that screenshot.

Originally Posted By: Lieste
Wait longer...
No seriously - it will take a long time for the debris to reach the ground from 25km up... especially if the hit is good and the target breaks up early on in/prior to the descent.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 03:08 PM

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
Originally Posted By: Kairo
for NaiseFail:
I don't know if you have already see on the ground the real disposition of the panels,
if you work alone in one of this fire Cabin, you will see that you must pass along all panels to reach the ones you want!
you can't bypass panels in middle to jump directly to the ones you want, you must have in your mind the complete "Image"
of all panels and there dispositions in firing cabin, to be able to use it and to go to desired panel !, in reality you waste some times to reach panels.
and simply pressing ... a key, is not the real world! (it's my personal think!)


No offense, but your argument is invalid. Some things have to be abstracted and/or simplified simply because a computer simulation, no matter how realistic, can never function 100% like the real life system. The simpler solution to this would probably be for the SAM Sim installer to either ask for, or detect your keyboard layout and use a profile made for that type of keyboard.

No offense at all, and your argument still valid for your point of view, but maybe ours mains goal is different :

"Some things have to be abstracted and/or simplified simply because a computer simulation, no matter how realistic, can never function 100% like the real life system
I don't think this SIM Simulator is intended for this purpose, it will be as a "cheap game", then we have to play Lock On: Flaming Cliffs 2 as well ...

Hpasp said in his site:
"The main goal during development was to simulate what the operators of the SAM battalion could see, and hear during engagement""

Originally Posted By: Kairo

the way to use the simulator (procedures), must be strictly the same as real machine or systems who we want to simulate, no wrap up will be made in this procedures or guidelines, no "cut" or simplify of procedures or guidelines are made in simulator, if it's done, it will be a "fake" simulator, and all the game's simulator are in the reality a "fake" simulator, - in all airplane simulator you never use all required switch and knobs to power on the engines, or to take off or even landing! -may be except MS Flight Simulator-


Don't worry for computers, they have no limits, "the only limit is our knowledge how to use it!"
if you expect a "simplified Game SAM Simulator", maybe it's the wrong place, I think we are more serious her!

"the main goal is to bring Users of "SAM Simulator", in to the real life of “Operators” and “Fire Cabin Officers” in Soviet’s SAM Batteries, and to relive in this fabulous world by virtue of "SAM Simulator - Realistic to the switch", and allow the Users to find themselves in the era of the Great Glories lived by these Soviet Sol-Air Missiles !" (from Preface of "the Complementary and Additive Information Manual")
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 03:40 PM

Ok, I tried again, target still visible.








Screenshots No 2 and 5 were taken 3 and 4 minutes after the impact, respectively. I started taking them when the target height at the indicator was low or zero (pic 3). The target was still visible 4 minutes after the impact, it disappeared ca. 30 seconds later.
Maybe it's not a bug. Maybe it's system-specific.
I just wanted to let you know.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 03:50 PM

If a target is killed, its speed is severely reduced.
The CW radar will loose it, until FM is turned on.


The impulse P14 is still tracking the falling debris.
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 03:56 PM

SAMSIM v922c released, as a minor version update, containing several fixes, and time compression feature...
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

F1 - Pause
F2 - Normal speed
F3 - 2x time compression
F4 - 4x time compression
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 04:01 PM

Great, thanks! smile

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
SAMSIM v922c released, as a minor version update, containing several fixes, and time compression feature...
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

F1 - Pause
F2 - Normal speed
F3 - 2x time compression
F4 - 4x time compression
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 04:10 PM

So altitude drops rapidly to zero because the CW radar lost it?

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
If a target is killed, its speed is severely reduced.
The CW radar will loose it, until FM is turned on.


The impulse P14 is still tracking the falling debris.
thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 04:47 PM


Thank's Hpasp !!
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
SAMSIM v922c released, as a minor version update, containing several fixes, and time compression feature...
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

F1 - Pause
F2 - Normal speed
F3 - 2x time compression
F4 - 4x time compression
thumbsup

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
SAM Simulator release plan

v922c is planned to be released within few weeks.
It will contain the Pause/2x/4x time compression, and some minor fixes.

v923 is planned to be released about the end of this year.
It is planned to contain the Dvina.

v924 is planned to be released during next year.
It is planned to contain the Silka.

I don't know why, but I feel all these releases will be more early .......... (I really hope!)


My feel was right yeah!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 04:55 PM

So altitude drops rapidly to zero because the CW radar lost it?

After missile hit, please monitor "C" screen, RAZRES FM lamp.
If it illuminates, then act accordingly, and switch to FM mode.
(your target will be lost by the RPC otherwise...)
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 07:11 PM

Roger Wilco, Sir.
Is there any way to limit the scope of sector search, for example to between 20,000 and 30,000 m?
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

After missile hit, please monitor "C" screen, RAZRES FM lamp.
If it illuminates, then act accordingly, and switch to FM mode.
(your target will be lost by the RPC otherwise...)
Posted By: zacklaws

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 08:39 PM

As my first post on the forum, I'd like to say a thank you for creating a wonderful programme which I have been using for a couple of weeks now but been unable to log into the forums due to loosing my original log in from years ago, and then getting my date of birth wrong and blocked from the forums till I could find the cookie that was stopping me.

Today I have been practising on the Sa 2E,and getting up to speed by being able to bring 5 x B52's down with one shot at each and 30 sec's between aircraft.

In my search for the deployment of B52's in Linebacker, I came across this document which may be of use to someone:-

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA241219

I have come across one little bug though which I have not seen mentioned in the forums and it involves setting the altitude manually for jamming aircraft, If I inadvertently exceed FL 300, (Sa-2E) the programme crashes to desktop every time which brings me to another question, if the jamming aircraft is at an altitude greater than FL300, how do I set the scale to reflect this?

At the moment I have just removed the simulator in anticipation of installing the V0.922C which is downloading very slowly, so perhaps the bug I have mentioned may have been fixed
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/06/11 09:26 PM

The FL 300 bug seems to have been fixed.
But the SA-2 clock doesn't work in historical scenarios. The hands don't move.
The problem is not visible on screenshots biggrin
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 07:01 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
While trying to duplicate the 'radar bug' I might have found something else...
On the C screen.
It might be a bug, appears to be dead.


I can confirm, that it is a real bug!
thumbsup

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 07:05 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
The FL 300 bug seems to have been fixed.
But the SA-2 clock doesn't work in historical scenarios. The hands don't move.
The problem is not visible on screenshots biggrin


At what situation???


The FL300 is still exist, I need to check this.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 07:12 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Roger Wilco, Sir.
Is there any way to limit the scope of sector search, for example to between 20,000 and 30,000 m?


Nope. nope
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 07:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: Lieste
Wait longer...

No seriously - it will take a long time for the debris to reach the ground from 25km up... especially if the hit is good and the target breaks up early on in/prior to the descent.


is there any method to track elevations's crash with radar?


Just use FM mode.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 07:19 AM

Originally Posted By: zacklaws

... which brings me to another question, if the jamming aircraft is at an altitude greater than FL300, how do I set the scale to reflect this?


The I87V shows altitude in KM (kilo meters) rather than FL (flight levels).
cowboy

30KM is around FL1000!!!
The B52s used to fly around 10~12KM that is FL30~40.
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 08:31 AM

This time we'll need Photoshop or Gimp to fix this! smile

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

I can confirm, that it is a real bug!
thumbsup


Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 09:30 AM

I checked again. Sometimes they don't move at all, sometimes they move all the time, even when the game is paused.
Or they move with the same speed, regardless of the compression factor.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: MK_PL
The FL 300 bug seems to have been fixed.
But the SA-2 clock doesn't work in historical scenarios. The hands don't move.
The problem is not visible on screenshots biggrin


At what situation???


The FL300 is still exist, I need to check this.

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 12:39 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
I checked again. Sometimes they don't move at all, sometimes they move all the time, even when the game is paused.
Or they move with the same speed, regardless of the compression factor.


Clock is always showing your current time, regardless of time compression.
Posted By: zacklaws

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 01:48 PM

Just checked version, v0.922c, and if I select, SA-2, Live practice, Asuluk, select any target and number of missiles etc, the programme will crash to desktop if I exceed the height scale (FL 300).

The error message I receive is:-

Run Time Error "13"

Type Mismatch
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By: zacklaws
Just checked version, v0.922c, and if I select, SA-2, Live practice, Asuluk, select any target and number of missiles etc, the programme will crash to desktop if I exceed the height scale (FL 300).

The error message I receive is:-

Run Time Error "13"

Type Mismatch


It will be corrected in the next version.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 03:52 PM

Do you know (even roughly) when new scenarios (Libya) will be added?
Posted By: zacklaws

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 05:32 PM

Something strange is happening when I am in the live practice,ver v0.922c which I never encountered in v099b, Asuluk, Sa-2. I have a feeling some targets are showing up well before the time that was given for that tgt given in the setup, I first noticed it with a B52 jamming which should not have appeared till at least 3min 30 sec into the simulation whilst I engaged an f16 first. Soon as I started, the B52 was showing up along with the f16.

Another time I had an f16, tgt no 1201, along with a B52 scheduled to appear later, I clicked on 1201 in the IADS page and engaged the tgt but also noticed a second blip at the same time, then when I went to the IADS page again, I discovered that I had not engaged 1201, but had engaged a tgt that had appeared from behind the range but no other tgt was present in the top right apart for the F16? I have added a screen shot of this engagement. I even waited for the B52 to appear but it never did.

http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2011/08/full-26868-16853-xenia_tchoumticheva001.jpg

I also replicated the scenario with the same timings for the tgts and added two more screen shots showing the double blip, only one should be showing as the second tgt should not have shown for another 3 mins, also in the IADS page only one tgt is showing.

http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2011/08/full-26868-16854-xenia_tchoumticheva002.jpg

http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2011/08/full-26868-16855-xenia_tchoumticheva003.jpg
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 05:49 PM

MK-PL you are a really an "Finest Perceiver" winner

Don't touch it, (Please) this is A REAL HISTORICAL BUG, FROM SAM'S SOVIET ERA !
if you retouch the pic with Photoshop - Credibility of SAM Sim, will be touched also -!!!- hahaha

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
This time we'll need Photoshop or Gimp to fix this! smile

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

I can confirm, that it is a real bug!
thumbsup



Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 06:22 PM

Something is rotten in Asuluk, I'm afraid.
I "ordered" two targets, an F-86 at 00:30 from NE and an A-4 at 05:00 from SE.
I shot down the first one, turned on 4x compression and when the second one appeared, it appeared North from the SAM site and was flying away from me. I quickly fired 2 missiles but the target disappeared (?) before they reached it.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Originally Posted By: zacklaws
Something strange is happening when I am in the live practice,
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 06:30 PM

The same scenario, the same results. I was also able to track the 1st drone before it even appeared on the IADS screen (i.e. it appeared immediately, I didn't have to wait 30 seconds for it).
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 06:32 PM

Thanks Kairo smile
The good old Cold War days, huh?
A grandson of that bug may be flying around us now, sigh...

Originally Posted By: Kairo
MK-PL you are a really an "Finest Perceiver" winner

Don't touch it, (Please) this is A REAL HISTORICAL BUG, FROM SAM'S SOVIET ERA !
if you retouch the pic with Photoshop - Credibility of SAM Sim, will be touched also -!!!- hahaha

Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 06:47 PM

I'm afraid Zacklaws is right.
This time I 'ordered' two F-86s, one at 00:30 and another at 03:30.
Look what happened:


But only one visible here:




Missile fired at 36:22? Which time zone? smile
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/07/11 07:32 PM

I know... maybe I watched too many movies...
but when I look at this picture:


I see...



Posted By: StartbahnWest

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 01:47 PM

So, I can't promise it, but i will try to finish the translation of the S-200 manual in to german till the end of August. At the moment 80 % of the manual has been translated.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 02:56 PM

UNK pics...

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 03:17 PM

SAMSIM v922d released, as a minor version update, I hope that most of the bugs were ironed out...

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 04:51 PM

Hmm, I don't want to piss anybody off, but... it seems that there are still a few bugs.
I ordered 2 targets in Asuluk, one NE, one SE. Both appeared NE. It happened twice I think, then targets started to appear where I wanted.
I fired 2-3 missiles at the second one. One or two missiles disappeared shortly after launch. It happened twice.
Please check on your computers.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 04:57 PM

Checked again - the game worked fine.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 05:39 PM

In Asuluk, target appearing SW is described as 'receding' but in fact, it is moving towards the SAM site. I fired two missiles at it, one disappeared. Hit the ground? But the target was flying too high I think.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
UNK pics...


ooooh yeaaah !

Real operational pics but (but two operators are missing, or not in their places ! -Viko operators and Plotting Table operators-
cuss2 = "GO BACK TO YOUR COMBAT-POST SOLDIERS!"

I have already visit the site of these pics but no so deeper, I havent found them,
some info and pics for the "complementary book" is taken also from this site!
Thank's for this Pics!
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 05:46 PM

Probably playing the sim.

Originally Posted By: Kairo

Real operational pics but (but two operators are missing, or not in their places !
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 06:00 PM

The flag report your same country ! then they are playing with you !!!
Originally Posted By: MK_PL

Probably playing the sim.


hey man you advertise the soldiers
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 06:02 PM

Don't tell anybody, but we unlocked the multiplayer mode.

Originally Posted By: Kairo
The flag report your same country ! then they are playing with you !!!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
In Asuluk, target appearing SW is described as 'receding' but in fact, it is moving towards the SAM site. I fired two missiles at it, one disappeared. Hit the ground? But the target was flying too high I think.


You should wait the drone to fly into the firing sector!
(above you, than fire while its receding to the NE)

Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 06:16 PM

Oh, thanks. I thought it would be moving SW from the very beginning. I'm glad it's not a bug then!

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: MK_PL
In Asuluk, target appearing SW is described as 'receding' but in fact, it is moving towards the SAM site. I fired two missiles at it, one disappeared. Hit the ground? But the target was flying too high I think.


You should wait the drone to fly into the firing sector!
(above you, than fire while its receding to the NE)

Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/08/11 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Don't tell anybody, but we unlocked the multiplayer mode.

Originally Posted By: Kairo
The flag report your same country ! then they are playing with you !!!

thumbsup be ward of error's, it may mycomputer
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 07:41 AM

In Poland
every village has a SAM site!

Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 03:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

What was the question?

Originally Posted By: vintorez
Redcoalition, what was your question regarding the S-300?

On the manual, S-300 is part of Volhov family, and it's development looks related to the development of 6cm antennas and systems of S-75M3 Volhov.

My question is: In what degree the development of S-300 is related with the S-75M3?
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 04:04 PM

Hi to all!...wave
For several days I'm looking for one information, but not reached yet!
what's the secret in soviet technique names? S-75 / S-200 / S-125?
Why "S" ? "75"? "125"? "200"? I searched Mikhail Pervov's Book reading (484Pages), but no result!
(may be I miss some pages?)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 04:42 PM

"S" = System in Russian
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition

On the manual, S-300 is part of Volhov family, and it's development looks related to the development of 6cm antennas and systems of S-75M3 Volhov.
My question is: In what degree the development of S-300 is related with the S-75M3?


The S-300P is a completely new system, developed using the lessons learned during the Vietnam War.
When the first S-300P version, the S-300PT Biryusa (SA-10A Grumble) fielding started, the development of the S-75M4, and the S-125M2 was immediately scrapped.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 05:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
"S" = System in Russian


Right !
and means of "75"? why "75" ? and why "125"?
any idea dear Master!
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 05:04 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
In Poland
every village has a SAM site!



then you have no joblessness in your country!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 06:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
"S" = System in Russian


Right !
and means of "75"? why "75" ? and why "125"?


Russian system nominations are not usually logical, and sometimes it was used to confuse the enemy.
With the air defense systems, they usually simply added 25 to the numbering.

S-25 Berkut (SA-1)
S-50 Dal (SA-5), cancelled
S-75 Dvina/Desna/Volhov (SA-2)
S-100 IADS
S-125 Neva (SA-3)

S-175 Competitor to the KRUG, cancelled
S-200 Angara/Vega/Dubna (SA-5)
S-225 Azov (ABM-2) competitor to the A-135 ABM system, cancelled
S-250 the planned successor of the Neva, cancelled

S-300P Biryusa/Volhov-M6 (SA-10)
S-300PM Favorit (SA-20)
S-400 Triumph (SA-21)
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 08:20 PM

Not to remain without last word: the only common thing between S-75 and S-300 I see was that at some stage of its development early S-300Px was referred to as Volkhov-M6 (probably to confuse Western intelligence that it was a deep modernization of S-75 -- note the last 'real' one was Volkhov-M4).
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 08:21 PM

Oh, I see Hpasp was faster with his V-M6 smile. Guru, could you tell a little bit about such then-planned Neva-M2?
Posted By: zacklaws

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 10:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
1101 is a Polish warship, safeguarding the firing range.

1102 is a MiG-21 (Fishbed) fighter, that first fly a parallel path than turns on the SAM battery.
At about 25~30km range, it launches an RS-2US (AA-1 Alkali) short range Air-to-Air missile towards us.

To safeguard the MiG, the missiles has self destruct timers, that blows up over 20km range.



Glad I have just found out about this as I thought also it was a bug, but what is the tgt 1104 that I get everytime, is that the AA missile, and if so why is the tgt number in white and why can I not lock onto it in the IADS screen, or can I only lock onto it manually?
Posted By: Vympel

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/09/11 10:49 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
Oh, I see Hpasp was faster with his V-M6 smile. Guru, could you tell a little bit about such then-planned Neva-M2?


Yes, I am also interested about any info on S-250.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 01:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Russian system nominations are not usually logical, and sometimes it was used to confuse the enemy.
With the air defense systems, they usually simply added 25 to the numbering.

S-25 Berkut (SA-1)
S-50 Dal (SA-5), cancelled
S-75 Dvina/Desna/Volhov (SA-2)
S-100 IADS
S-125 Neva (SA-3)

S-175 Competitor to the KRUG, cancelled
S-200 Angara/Vega/Dubna (SA-5)
S-225 Azov (ABM-2) competitor to the A-135 ABM system, cancelled
S-250 the planned successor of the Neva, cancelled

S-300P Biryusa/Volhov-M6 (SA-10)
S-300PM Favorit (SA-20)
S-400 Triumph (SA-21)

Thank's too much for all this info, it was a logical question in one chapter
about "The names of the Military Equipments" for the "Complementary and additive information" Book!
your reply will be added as it! (I promise!) thumbsup

BTW I never heard about S-250 for neva Upgrade' any deep info?
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 03:10 AM

Just for lol!

Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 05:40 AM

Yeah, 1104 is the RS-2US (Alkali) missile, you can lock onto it manually, just track the fighter (1102) on your A or Z screen and when you see a new contact separating from it, lock onto it and FIRE!!!

Originally Posted By: zacklaws

Glad I have just found out about this as I thought also it was a bug, but what is the tgt 1104 that I get everytime, is that the AA missile, and if so why is the tgt number in white and why can I not lock onto it in the IADS screen, or can I only lock onto it manually?
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 05:43 AM

And he didn't believe them when they told him that radar radiation can be bad for his health...

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Just for lol!

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 07:50 AM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
Oh, I see Hpasp was faster with his V-M6 smile. Guru, could you tell a little bit about such then-planned Neva-M2?


Please stop Guruing...
cuss2

The S-125M2 Neva development was also scrapped during 1978.
It contained mainly those advances to the operator panels, that you as an expert virtual FCO would really appreciate.

Volhov style Elevation and Azimuth indicators.


The target flight parameter instruments gone below to the UK31.


Volhov style "target throw over" possibility from the acquisition radar.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 08:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Vympel
Yes, I am also interested about any info on S-250.


To improve the detection range of very low flying targets (cruise missiles), the plan was to elevate the SNR.



This concept was further improved with the S-300P mobile elevated masts (40V6).
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 03:06 PM

I still have some (idiotic) questions. g.e, i never understood very well the Plotting Table indicators..
I thought "Own Target" is the designated target to the battery. But i found a Su-22 on Hungary being considerated "Own Target", how is that possible, what's the definition of "Own Target"?

Also, what's a "supervisor target" and a "rule violator target"?
That info would be useful for the translation, I fear doing a "word-by-word" translation and lose the real meaning of the words...

Thank You once again smile
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
I still have some (idiotic) questions. g.e, i never understood very well the Plotting Table indicators..
I thought "Own Target" is the designated target to the battery. But i found a Su-22 on Hungary being considerated "Own Target", how is that possible, what's the definition of "Own Target"?

Also, what's a "supervisor target" and a "rule violator target"?
That info would be useful for the translation, I fear doing a "word-by-word" translation and lose the real meaning of the words...

Thank You once again smile


0 – jamming target
1 – friendly target (our armed fighter)
2 – identified target (our unarmed fighter with IFF on)
3 – border violator (previously unannounced target, that violated our airspace. This is when the adrenalin started...)
4 – supervisor target (WarPact level target to check the air defense readiness. You need to imitate missile launches against it, and prove it later.)
5 – own target (our fighter flying to practice the air defense batteries)
6 – rule violator target (our civil or fighter plane, in a wrong place or altitude)
7 – practice target ("paper dragon", target exist only on the plotting board)
8 – enemy (wartime, shot at it with live missile)
9 – target without IFF (our unarmed fighter with IFF off)
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 04:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
I still have some (idiotic) questions. g.e, i never understood very well the Plotting Table indicators..
I thought "Own Target" is the designated target to the battery. But i found a Su-22 on Hungary being considerated "Own Target", how is that possible, what's the definition of "Own Target"?

Also, what's a "supervisor target" and a "rule violator target"?
That info would be useful for the translation, I fear doing a "word-by-word" translation and lose the real meaning of the words...

Thank You once again smile

it's not idiot at all for who haven't some knowledge about air traffic,
look:
An airway is a designated route in the air (AWY),
An air corridor is a designated region of airspace that an aircraft must remain in during its transit through a given region or country .
In some case air corridors are imposed by military for national security (to avoid air-photo spy), or for diplomatic requirements.
for most country there is a controlled airspace with a defined rules, and there is corridors for the airways,.

The circulating of the planes must be in the interior of the corridors, wide of 10 nautical miles (18 km) and are separated vertically to 300 m. (value may change between country),

Own Target = is an drone we launch to practice shut-down!
Supervisor Target = in definition is an "air post-commandment target"
rule violator target= if the plane don't respect the rules during its transit -it can be shut-down in some country- pilot
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

0 – jamming target
1 – friendly target (our armed fighter)
2 – identified target (our unarmed fighter with IFF on)
3 – border violator (previously unannounced target, that violated our airspace. This is when the adrenalin started...)
4 – supervisor target (WarPact level target to check the air defense readiness. You need to imitate missile launches against it, and prove it later.)
5 – own target (our fighter flying to practice the air defense batteries)
6 – rule violator target (our civil or fighter plane, in a wrong place or altitude)
7 – practice target ("paper dragon", target exist only on the plotting board)
8 – enemy (wartime, shot at it with live missile)
9 – target without IFF (our unarmed fighter with IFF off)


wow you are speedy than me thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 04:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

4 – supervisor target (WarPact level target to check the air defense readiness. You need to imitate missile launches against it, and prove it later.)


but there is some difference between us:

Supervisor Target = in definition is an enemy "air post-commandment target"

and there is another type we name DATEST:
it's to test all kind of Territory Air Defence", EWRadars, IFF, Aquisition Radars ...
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 04:46 PM

Redcoalition do you read Fr or not?



I have Ar also ready !!
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 07:58 PM

Ok, while I still remember (maybe I should wait for the implementation of the Dvina) smile
In mid-80s, a friend of mine told me a joke. Not very politically correct smile

"The Vietnamese received several SAM systems from the Soviets.
After a few days, the Vietnamese send a message:
'Dear Comrades! Thank you very much for the surface-to-air missiles!
Now please send us some surface-to-aircraft missiles'."

LOL

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Just for lol!

Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/10/11 10:43 PM

Unfortunately I can't read French ... But thanks for the clarification, Kairo!
Thank you too, Hpasp, fot the clarification!
But... A "target without IFF" can also be an enemy with IFF off?
Thank you, I think i can proceede with translation now smile
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/11/11 06:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition

But... A "target without IFF" can also be an enemy with IFF off?
Thank you, I think i can proceede with translation now smile


IFF = identifies friends or foe, is an electronic equipment for automatic identification, with secret codes exchange
between radar and aircraft, only aircraft use it,(not used for civilian plane)
if the response is positive OUR aircraft will be as a big "banana" in radar echo, else he still as usual radar echo.
this code can change every days (or hours)in war time,or every month in peace time,
there is no way to enemies to send the same code "to be Friend" for the radar !

enemy with IFF off = don't exist !
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/11/11 06:53 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Ok, while I still remember (maybe I should wait for the implementation of the Dvina) smile
In mid-80s, a friend of mine told me a joke. Not very politically correct smile

"The Vietnamese received several SAM systems from the Soviets.
After a few days, the Vietnamese send a message:
'Dear Comrades! Thank you very much for the surface-to-air missiles!
Now please send us some surface-to-aircraft missiles'."

LOL


they are right, !!! "craft" was missing in fist sending ! hahaha
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/11/11 07:19 AM

Hi to All !
we have a serious problem !!!!

our MASTER don't like to be called Master
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Please...
... Im not master at all.


and be came angry if we call him Guru
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Please stop Guruing...
cuss2


Hey ! All of you
we must choose and vote for valuable name to our G..., hummm Mas.... , sorry I'm afraid to said it !
every body must propose a name an we vote !
proposal is OPEN
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/11/11 08:21 AM

Try Hpasp
thumbsup
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/11/11 11:11 AM

1) Hpasp, I've learned that V-601 missiles can remain in "prepared" mode for 20 minutes only. While it is not reflected in the S-125 manual, is it still simulated? (I had no patience to observe the lamps for 20 minutes smile ).

2) How accurately is the S-75 missile preparation model reflected? For instance, after 5 min. of readiness the 20DSU missile should be switched off, or switches off automatically, whatever. After switch-off, how long must the battery wait before starting preparation of the same missile again? Is this modelled?

3) time compression mode has no effect on P-18/P-15 screen, I mean, antenna rotating speed does not 'speed up' - target position refreshment occurs up to 4 times less frequently. Easy to correct, I suppose?

4) Once again about Krug missile burnout speed: the receding target flying some 650 m/s appears to be faster than the missile (not very impressive...). What is maximum target speed for receding targets as of the Krug?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/11/11 11:49 AM

1) Hpasp, I've learned that V-601 missiles can remain in "prepared" mode for 20 minutes only. While it is not reflected in the S-125 manual, is it still simulated? (I had no patience to observe the lamps for 20 minutes smile ).

Not simulated.

2) How accurately is the S-75 missile preparation model reflected? For instance, after 5 min. of readiness the 20DSU missile should be switched off, or switches off automatically, whatever. After switch-off, how long must the battery wait before starting preparation of the same missile again? Is this modelled?

It is fully simulated.

3) time compression mode has no effect on P-18/P-15 screen, I mean, antenna rotating speed does not 'speed up' - target position refreshment occurs up to 4 times less frequently. Easy to correct, I suppose?

It should. Do you use the latest version?

4) Once again about Krug missile burnout speed: the receding target flying some 650 m/s appears to be faster than the missile (not very impressive...). What is maximum target speed for receding targets as of the Krug?

Receding target maximum speed:
SA-75MK Dvina - 420m/s
S-75M3 Volhov - 420m/s
S-125M Neva - 300m/s
KRUG - 400m/s
S-200VE Vega-E - 500m/s
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/11/11 01:38 PM

As to point 3 above, you are correct. v922d goes faster.
Nevertheless, I have found something like a bug. When I switch time compression "4x" at P-15 screen, the little black box in the center does not disappear after a sceond or two just like on other screens, and for a longer period (up to 30 sec.) nothing can be done with any key.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/11/11 02:54 PM

Hmmm...
Highly Professional Although Shy Person?
Highly trained Professional for Aircraft Suppression Purposes?

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Try Hpasp
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/11/11 05:14 PM

... is slowly getting into life.
thumbsup

Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/11/11 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: Redcoalition

But... A "target without IFF" can also be an enemy with IFF off?
Thank you, I think i can proceede with translation now smile


IFF = identifies friends or foe, is an electronic equipment for automatic identification, with secret codes exchange
between radar and aircraft, only aircraft use it,(not used for civilian plane)
if the response is positive OUR aircraft will be as a big "banana" in radar echo, else he still as usual radar echo.
this code can change every days (or hours)in war time,or every month in peace time,
there is no way to enemies to send the same code "to be Friend" for the radar !

enemy with IFF off = don't exist !

I already knew the concept of IFF, but i didn't know that the IFF codes were kept at such secrecy, so I thought that each "army" could identify both enemy and friedly IFF emissions.
Again, thank you! wink
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 12:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Originally Posted By: Kairo
Originally Posted By: Redcoalition

But... A "target without IFF" can also be an enemy with IFF off?
Thank you, I think i can proceede with translation now smile


IFF = identifies friends or foe, is an electronic equipment for automatic identification, with secret codes exchange
between radar and aircraft, only aircraft use it,(not used for civilian plane)
if the response is positive OUR aircraft will be as a big "banana" in radar echo, else he still as usual radar echo.
this code can change every days (or hours)in war time,or every month in peace time,
there is no way to enemies to send the same code "to be Friend" for the radar !

enemy with IFF off = don't exist !

I already knew the concept of IFF, but i didn't know that the IFF codes were kept at such secrecy, so I thought that each "army" could identify both enemy and friedly IFF emissions.
Again, thank you! wink

enemy aircraft, when doing operation in enemy land, must do "radio silence", that's mean
a condition in which all radio equipment capable of radiation is kept inoperative,
may be except on board radar in certain case,
enemy aircraft never use IFF in enemy land!

Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Try Hpasp
thumbsup

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Hmmm...
Highly Professional Although Shy Person?
Highly trained Professional for Aircraft Suppression Purposes?

may be I can said: High Professor of Airdefence Systems and Purposes

how agree for Professor ??
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 02:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
... is slowly getting into life.
thumbsup



keep on going Doctor ..... don't Stop ! Bring all Knobs a life !
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 06:44 AM

Russian Air Defense Forces Museum - http://www.mvpvo.ru/
"Eng" button doesn't work nope
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 07:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Amidkor
Russian Air Defense Forces Museum - http://www.mvpvo.ru/
"Eng" button doesn't work nope

GOOGLE TRANSLATE thumbsup
any rusia site about neva?? (deep info or ynk's pics?)
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 07:45 AM

That museum may be good idea to get additional pictures of control panels - if they have any beside these depicted at the website. S-300? Kub? Maybe some less fatigued Dvina? Not thinking about travelling to deep Russia, but maybe they would cooperate?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 08:17 AM

About the Dvina...

As the coder, Im the lucky one to try the new systems in the SIM first. wink

First impressions about the Dvina...
(don't get it wrong, still huge work, and several months are left before release)
... this system will be the favorite to all new users.

Much-much easier...
(All FCO's, who were lucky (old) enough to be able to use both the Dvina and the Volhov, said that the Dvina was a much cleaner/easier system to use.)
... to use. Only two range mode (called 120/60, in reality its only 55km or 110km), no narrow beam - LORO - H<5 options, you just use the wide beam.
(it could be a Weasel magnet in Vietnam)

Some switches are in crazy places. (ok, we are trained in a wrong way, Volhov first thumbsup )
The fire and missile recall buttons are exchanged! (PUSK is the lower one) nope

I give one virtual point to those, who find the ANT/EKV switch, and also the 120/60 selector is at a pretty unusual place.

NO SDC, NO I87V, lower range of the missiles.
Phewww...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 08:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
may be I can said: High Professor of Airdefence Systems and Purposes

how agree for Professor ??


You will never find the meaning of this acronym, so there is really no point to spend time on finding out it.
I'm perfectly happy to be called Hpasp.
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 08:25 AM

If it's in Hungarian, we could as well try to divide it by zero.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

You will never find the meaning of this acronym, so there is really no point to spend time on it.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 08:46 AM

Am I right? There's a circular/sector search switch?
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 09:00 AM

I may be wrong but I think that
the ANT/EKV switch is on screen Q, in the center, under the red RPK pilot lamp.
And the 120/60 switch is on screen Z, under the middle PUSK button.
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 10:44 AM

Nope. ANT/EKV is in the Z screen, white switch just below azimuth indicator. The switch you mentioned is probably a part of "electronic launch" installation (just like in Volkhov).

120/60 - you're right.
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 11:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
NO SDC, NO I87V, lower range of the missiles.

It's looking good! The fire/self-destruct buttons being reversed will take some getting used to. The only thing that worries me about the Dvina is not having SDC or I87V..

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
If it's in Hungarian, we could as well try to divide it by zero.

Hmm...

Hpasp / 0
...
...
...
Error 506: Cannot divide by 0.
Exiting...
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 11:45 AM

Told ya, this is pointless smile

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
If it's in Hungarian, we could as well try to divide it by zero.

Hmm...

Hpasp / 0
...
...
...
Error 506: Cannot divide by 0.
Exiting... [/quote]
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Kairo
may be I can said: High Professor of Airdefence Systems and Purposes

how agree for Professor ??


You will never find the meaning of this acronym, so there is really no point to spend time on finding out it.
I'm perfectly happy to be called Hpasp.
thumbsup

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Told ya, this is pointless smile

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
If it's in Hungarian, we could as well try to divide it by zero.


the first time I have read Hpasp my mind said :"hum ..... , this guy has certainly two computers,
the master is an Hewlett-Packard computer, and the second is may be a Laptop one like Acer Aspire !!

Then Hp/asp take place
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
That museum may be good idea to get additional pictures of control panels - if they have any beside these depicted at the website. S-300? Kub? Maybe some less fatigued Dvina? Not thinking about travelling to deep Russia, but maybe they would cooperate?

usually museum website don't put in there site HD pics of all exposed stuff, but only one between 20,
but I have a lot of HD Pics collect from many site, (walk around, inside ..) and it will be an album photo
add in the "Additive book", just be patient ... reading
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
About the Dvina...

As the coder, Im the lucky one to try the new systems in the SIM first.

It's not justness pitchafit (just for lol)
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 08:29 PM

Question: Why those guys are listed as "enemies" on the "Operation Grand Slam" scenario?
Quote:
25:19, V-755 20DSU Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 24km
Target azimuth: 182°
Target elevation: 24°
Target altitude: 10,3km
SNR mode: Narrow Beam - 75km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


25:40, Missile exploded on Channel-2
MiG-19 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 19m)

26:33, V-755 20DSU Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 29km
Target azimuth: 143°
Target elevation: 20°
Target altitude: 10,6km
SNR mode: LORO - 75km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


27:00, Missile exploded on Channel-1
MiG-19 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 11m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 35sec
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/12/11 08:38 PM

As far as I remember, one of the Soviet fighters used outdated IFF codes.
"The MiGs' IFF transponders were not yet switched to the new May codes because of the May 1st holiday".
According to another source, the falling U-2 was interpreted as a chaff cloud on the radar screen and another missile was fired, this time at the Soviet aircraft.

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Question: Why those guys are listed as "enemies" on the "Operation Grand Slam" scenario?

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/14/11 05:06 AM

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
The only thing that worries me about the Dvina is not having SDC or I87V..


I really miss the LORO mode.
Illuminating the B52's with a pencil beam is quite safe (almost no chance, that the Weasels detect it), and at some ranges used to burn through the jamming.
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 06:47 AM

Hi to all!

my question for this day is:

in operation "Linebacker II”, how many SAM batteries was destroyed? S-75 and S-125?
and how many aircraft for US was destroyed?
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 12:01 PM

Maybe you'll find some info here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20021203112458/http://members.aol.com/dpoole1272/home/lbdays.htm

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi to all!

my question for this day is:

in operation "Linebacker II”, how many SAM batteries was destroyed? S-75 and S-125?
and how many aircraft for US was destroyed?

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 12:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi to all!

my question for this day is:

in operation "Linebacker II”, how many SAM batteries was destroyed? S-75 and S-125?
and how many aircraft for US was destroyed?



Linebacker-II (1972 December 18-29) contained 25 raid, altogether ~1500 planes.

USAF Aircraft Losses Dec. 18-29, 1972
Date Type Call Sign Target (Mission) Cause
Dec. 18 F-111A Snug 40 Hanoi Radio unk.
Dec. 18 B-52G Charcoal 01 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 18 B-52G Peach 02 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 18 B-52D Rose 01 Hanoi Radio SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52D Quilt 03 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Brass 02 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Orange 03 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52D Straw 02 Gia Lam rail yard SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Olive 01 Kinh No complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Tan 03 Kinh No complex SA-2
Dec. 21 B-52D Scarlet 03 Bac Mai airfield SA-2
Dec. 21 B-52D Blue 01 Bac Mai airfield SA-2
Dec. 22 F-111A Jackle 33 Kinh No complex unk.
Dec. 23 EB-66C Hunt 02 (non combat) engine out
Dec. 26 B-52D Ebony 02 Giap Nhi rail yard SA-2
Dec. 26 B-52D Ash 01 Kinh No complex SA-2
Dec. 27 F-4E DeSoto 03 (strike escort) MiG-21
Dec. 27 F-4E Vega 02 (MiGCAP) MiG-21
Dec. 27 HH-53 Jolly Green (rescue) small arms
Dec. 27 B-52D Ash 02 SAM site SA-2
Dec. 27 B-52D Cobalt 02 Truan Quan rail yard SA-2
Source: Pacific Air Forces

-------------------------------------------------------------------


Fifteen B52s went down outside of North Vietnam. Eight were due to combat. Seven were “operational losses,” which occurred while B52s were enroute to combat areas in Vietnam. (Information listed below).



Olive 2 B52D 11-22-72 U-Tapao SA2 damage at Vinh. Crashed near NKP. Lost 4 engines on one side. 6 crewmen bailed out/recovered. No. 55-0110.
P- N.J. Ostozny; C/P- Tony Foley; RN- Bud Rech; N- Bob Estes; EWO- Larry Stephens; G- Ronald W. Sellers. (Combat loss, 1).

Peach 2 B52G 12-18-72 Andersen Crew bailed out/rescued over Thailand.
No. 58-0246. (Combat loss, 2).

Brass 2 B52G 12-20-72 Andersen Crew bailed out/rescued over Thailand.
No. 57-6481. (Combat loss, 3).

Straw 2 B52D 12-21-72 Andersen Crew bailed out over Laos. R/N Maj Frank Gould not recovered. Status XX. Other crewmembers recovered.
No. 56-0669. (Combat loss, 4).

Ash 1 B52D 12-26-72 U-Tapao Crashed at U-Tapao. Attempted go-around with 4 engines out on same side. 4 KIA. CP, 1st Lt Bob Hymel & Gunner, TSgt Spencer Grippen were rescued. No. 56-0584. The A/C made a determination that they should bailout before the crash, but since the gunner was wounded and they felt he might not be able to physically execute the bailout, they decided as a crew to try and bring the plane in. Ironically, the only survivors of the crash were the C/P and the wounded gunner. In addition, the C/P would not have survived had he not been rescued by a crewmember from another BUFF who watched the crash, and rushed into the wreck to pull the
C/P out before the plane burned up. Lord, that we could have more men like these. September 11, 2001, Lt Col Hymel, Retired, was sitting at his desk as a Defense
Intelligence Agency analyst in the Pentagon. He was one of the thousands of Americans killed that day. (Combat loss, 5).

Ash 2 B52D 12-27-72 U-Tapao No. 56-0599. Bailed out over Laos. Crew was from 28th BW, Ellsworth AFB, SD. P- Capt John Mize; CP-Terrence Gruters; RN- Capt Bill North; NAV- Bill Robinson; EWO- Capt Dennis Andersen; G- TSgt Peter Whalen. Target was SAM site VN-243, near Hanoi. After bomb release, hit by SAM. Lost all 4 engines on left wing. All crew members were picked up by rescue helicopters. (Combat loss, 6).

Ruby 02 B52D 1-4-73, U-Tapao, No. 55-0056. SA2 hit over Vinh. Went feet
wet, crew bailed out, all rescued by US Navy. (Combat loss, 7).

(Unknown) B-52D July 8, 1967 no. 56-0601 was hit over Vinh and suffered a complete hydraulic failure. The pilot elected to go into Danang rather than bail the crew out. After touchdown, the A/C was unable to stop or negotiate a go-around. They ran off the end of the runway into a mine field. All forward crewmembers perished. The Gunner, Albert Whatley survived with the help of a Marine fire truck crew. Crew was from Columbus AFB,GA. (Combat loss, Cool. Whatley cannot remember the call sign.

(Unknown) B52D 5-8-69 Andersen, no. 56-0693 was lost on takeoff from Guam. It started a right turn after t/o and crashed in the sea killing all six aboard. Pilot- Capt Larry Broadhead; CP-.Maurice Lundy; RN- Capt Russell Platt; NAV- Maj James Sipes; EWO- Lt Thomas McCormick; G- MSgt Harry Deal. (Operational loss no. 1).

(Unknown) B52D 7-28-69 Anderson, no. 56-0693 was lost on takeoff from Guam. It crashed into the sea killing all eight aboard. (Op Loss no. 2).

(Unknown) B52G 7-8-72 Anderson, no. 59-2600 was over the Philippine Sea. For unknown reasons its radome separated from the airplane. The pilot/copilot reacted incorrectly and subsequently lost all airspeed. All six crewmen successfully bailed out, but one, the RN (a LtCol) got a streamer. The other five crewmen were rescued. (No. 3)

(Unknown) B52F 6-18-65 Andersen, no. 57-0047 collided with no. 57-0179 over the South Pacific while circling awaiting KC-135As for pre-strike air refueling. 4 survivors, 8 fatalities among the 12 crewmen. (Op Loss 4).

(Unknown) B52F 6-18-65 Andersen, no. 57-0179 collided with no. 57-0047.
(Operational loss no. 5).

Red 1 B52D 7-6-67 no. 56-0627 had a mid-air collision with no. 56-0595 over South China Sea near Saigon while “changing formation lead.” See below, next entry. Seven survivors, six fatalities(#) among the 13 crewmembers. Crew: E-06, 22nd BW, March AFB, CA. P- Capt John Suther; CP- Wilcox Creeden; RN- Maj Paul Avolese(#); Nav- Lt William Gabel; EWO- Capt David Bitten(#);G-SSgt Lynn Chase.; Airborne Commander- Maj Gen William Crumm, 3rd (#), Air Division Commander. (Op loss 6).

Red 2 B52D 7-6-67 no. 56-0595 collided with no. 56-0627. See entry above. Crew: E-10, 454th BW. P- Capt George Westbrook; CP- (name unk); RN- George Jones; EWO- Toki Endo G- Msgt Olen McLaughlin (#). NAV- unkown. (Op loss 7).


Out of 498 BUFF sorties over Hanoi/Haiphong the loss rate was 1.7% (.017). Source: Linebacker II: A View From the Rock published by the Air War College in 1979. (Note: 2001 Boeing records list 32 B52 aircraft hit by SAMs. Other sources state that there were a total of 724 B-52 sorties flown during LB II).

---------------------------------------------------


During the period April 9, 1972 thru January 14, 1973, 16 other B-52s (one G-model and 15 D-models) received major battle damage (caused by SAMs), over North Vietnam. Following is a list of these sixteen B52s (aircraft recovered, no deaths or injuries reported):

Serial No. Date of damage Remarks (All damage noted was from SAMs)

D 56-0665 4-9-72 Landed at Danang and flown to U-Tapao, Thailand. 156 damaged areas. Repaired and placed back in service, according to Boeing maintenance records. Contradicting this information, the plane is “unaccounted for” according to authors Dorr & Peacock. Contradicting Dorr’s information, there is a B52D now on display at Wright-Patterson with the number 56-0665 painted on the side. If you’re confused, read the next two paragraphs.

D 56-0589 4-23-72 Landed at Danang and later flown to U-Tapao. Approximately 400 outer surface holes. 20,000 manhours. Placed back in commission 1-9-73. Currently located at Wright-Patterson AFB, Dayton, Ohio, according to Boeing. Contradicting this information, authors Dorr & Peacock, in an appendix, state that 56-0589 was “ultimately disposed to ground instruction at Sheppard, Texas.”

To complicate the issue of the two notes above, Dorr & Peacock state that the aircraft now on display at Wright-Patterson is B-52B no. 53-0394. However, to the casual observer of B-52 models, the plane on display is certainly not 53-0394 (as stated by Dorr), because it has the large wingtip fuel tanks common to the B-52 “D” model, not the small ones characteristic of a B-52 “B” model. Now that you’re really confused, the sign located at the B-52 at Wright-Patterson states words to the effect, “...suffered battle damage over Vietnam, exhibiting over 400 holes...” This description matches the Boeing Maintenance records for 56-0589...yet the number 53-0665 is currently painted on the side. I’m confused...are you? We need a volunteer B-52 history buff to visit the cockpit, look on the back of the door, and find out the real number.

D 56-0604 11-5-72 Landed at U-Tapao. 333 external damage areas. Using horizontal stabilizer from 55-097. Estimated time in commission (ETIC) 2-1-73.

D 55-0052 11-22-72 Landed at U-Tapao. Approx 20 holes. Repairable by T.O. 1B-52B-3. In commission 1-9-73.

D 56-0678 12-18-72 Landed at U-Tapao. No inspar damage. ETIC 7-30-73. Est. 60,000 manhours. 350 external holes; 24 areas require kits. Lilac 03.

D 56-0583 12-18-72 Landed at U-Tapao. Returned to service 12-20-72 minus three repairs 53 manhours. 10 external holes plus several dents and gouges.

D 56-0592 12-18-72 Landed at NamPhong, Thailand; one time flight to U-Tapao 12-23-72. ETIC 3-15-73. External holes estimated 2,000 manhours.

G 58-0254 12-18-72 Landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. Sheet metal damage top of fuselage 30 to 50 holes. Minus three repairs.

D 55-0067 12-22-72 Landed at U-Tapao. Minus three repairs. In commission 1-9-73. 70 manhours. Nineteen external holes. Call sign “Brick 2”.

D 55-0051 12-24-72 Landed at U-Tapao. In commission 1-9-73. 226 manhours. Eleven external holes.

D 55-0062 12-26-72 Landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. “Dash 3” repairs. Returned to service 12-27-72. Cream 1.

D 55-0090 12-26-72 Landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. “Dash 3” repairs. Returned to service 12-28-72. Cream 2.

D 56-0629 12-26-72. Landed at U-Tapao. Black 03 B-52D. TOT 1609Z Duc Noi 37,000 MSL. Returned to service 12-31-72. 63 manhours to repair fourteen external holes plus three dents.

D 55-0052 1-8-73 Second incident. Landed at U-Tapao. Approx. 45 holes.

D 55-0116 1-14-73 Landed at Danang. Over 200 holes. Left wing section 21 needs replacing. Left drop tank numerous holes. Removed both; being salvaged 4-1-73. (According to one source there was not enough time before the cease-fire to salvage the aircraft so it was scraped).

D 55-0058 1-14-73 Landed at U-Tapao. Took hits from 2 of 6 SA-2s
fired just prior to drop. More hits from 1 of 3 more SAMs on exit. Over 120 holes. Geoff Engels, a/c commander, Gunner, Jack Attebury, C/P Ernie Perrow, NAV Mike Gjede, EW "Torch" Torsiello, RN (Unknown).

Note: Source of aircraft data…Boeing maintenance records. Note that Boeing records show 19 aircraft were lost in combat…but that has to be in error. Nos. G 58-0216 (19 Dec 72) and G 57-6472 (20 Dec 72), shown as downed in combat, later flew in the 1980s. The correct total number of B52s lost in combat must be 17. However, eight additional B-52s were operational losses while enroute to a combat area. Total Vietnam B52 loses: 25.

Tail Gunner Note: B52-D serial no. 55-083, “Diamond Lil,” is now on display at the USAFA. The plaque at the aircraft states that that aircraft was one of two B52s to shoot down an enemy MIG during the Vietnam conflict. The date of the confirmed MiG 21 kill is recorded as December 24, 1972. Tailgunner Moore of the 307SW. A second B-52D got a confirmed kill: 56-676 got a MiG 21 kill 18 Dec 72. Tailgunner Turner of the 307SW. Present location of 56-676 unknown.

--------------------------------------

Number of active SA-75MK Dvina batteries around Hanoi:
18 - 9
19 - 10
20 - 10
21 - 9
22 - 9
26 - 13
27 - 12
28 - 11
29 - 8

On nine occasions, the SAM units received hits (in 8 cases from bombs, 1 case from Shrike [73.battery]).
It disabled 5 battery temporarily, and one [73.battery] finally.

Destroyed:
1pcs PAA cabin (hit by Shrike, copletely destroyed)
The 73. battery was illuminating the target for 80s, when their PAA was hit by Shrike.

Damaged:
3pcs PA-11/12 antenna
1pcs RPK antenna
5pcs DES-75 diesel generator
9pcs launchers
15pcs missiles
1pcs ATS-59 tractor
cabling at 3 battalions


Against B52, they launched 244 missile, on 135 occasions*.
Against other planes, they launched 55 missiles, on 34 occasions*.
*Hanoi and Haiphong
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 01:57 PM

Let me add something to Kairo's question... There is information about how many SAM operators have died during the Linebacker II? I believe they also had regular NVA soldiers along the batteries, operating AAA. How many military engineers and soldiers were killed "inside" the SAM sites during Operation Linebacker II?

I ask these questions with the goal to understand the life risk for the operators, engineers and soldiers that performed their duty on the SAM sitesand and the resulting pressure that operators faced in their jobs.

Thank you.

EDIT: Several B-52 that landed "safely" on South Vietnam were also unable to be repaired, being removed from combat... But on official records, weren't considered "combat losses".
Also, some accidents in South Vietnam were recorded as "operational casualties", even when the aircraft in question was severely damaged by anti-aircraft fire. I had the numbers, but I let my stuff on my hometown frown
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 04:20 PM

Some info on how the Fan Song operated and on the Wild Weasels as well:

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/punch.html?c=y&page=3
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 05:21 PM

From that website - a funny one about RPK switch:

"Some air crews witnessed a further step taken in the electronic gamesmanship: simulated SAM launches. "We used to joke about the Russian technician teaching the NVA and saying, "See that big formation right there on the scope? Well, watch this,' " says Bill Sparks, a former F-105 pilot. "He would hit the button, and the formation would look like the world's biggest bomb burst as everyone jettisoned their loads and went crazy looking for a launch. Kinda funny, really."

Do you know any publication describing that campaign (I mean S-75 vs. USAF) in details? I don't mean that Osprey publication which said that RSNA-75 was able to track up to 4 targets simultaneously... smile

I'm trying to translate that Russian book on Vietnam and Middle East into English. Not promising anything, but...
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 05:55 PM

I think that similar 'scare tactics' were described by J. Gotowala, but were used in air combat, a missile was fired to break the formation of enemy aircraft. It was called 'hitting the kettledrum' (?)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
From that website - a funny one about RPK switch:

"Some air crews witnessed a further step taken in the electronic gamesmanship: simulated SAM launches. "We used to joke about the Russian technician teaching the NVA and saying, "See that big formation right there on the scope? Well, watch this,' " says Bill Sparks, a former F-105 pilot. "He would hit the button, and the formation would look like the world's biggest bomb burst as everyone jettisoned their loads and went crazy looking for a launch. Kinda funny, really."

Do you know any publication describing that campaign (I mean S-75 vs. USAF) in details? I don't mean that Osprey publication which said that RSNA-75 was able to track up to 4 targets simultaneously... smile

I'm trying to translate that Russian book on Vietnam and Middle East into English. Not promising anything, but...


Best book on Linebacker-II:
http://www.amazon.com/Eleven-Days-Christmas-Americas-Vietnam/dp/1893554279

Best in Russian:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwb689pavxcg4d6/1972.pdf
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
From that website - a funny one about RPK switch:

"Some air crews witnessed a further step taken in the electronic gamesmanship: simulated SAM launches. "We used to joke about the Russian technician teaching the NVA and saying, "See that big formation right there on the scope? Well, watch this,' " says Bill Sparks, a former F-105 pilot. "He would hit the button, and the formation would look like the world's biggest bomb burst as everyone jettisoned their loads and went crazy looking for a launch. Kinda funny, really."


That is that switch on the I64V panel.
You can frighten the SR71 with it smile
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 06:12 PM

Hpasp, could you tell me on which the time displayed in AARs is based?
You know, like
58:21 [...] Missile launched on Channel-2

58 secs is too early, 58 minutes... well...
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 06:37 PM

Hpasp,
I looked for your answer about Elliptic Search method, but I couldn't find it... What about now? Could you explain that?
Also, why PRF is changed when we change the range scale?
And what's this switch on I64V panel that frighten the SR71?

Thanks again.
PS:. If anyone could answer my question about casualties in North Vietnam SAM sites I'd be pleased.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 06:58 PM

Another article from not a very reliable source smile

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/1999/07/04/seeing-through-stealth.html

'Some of its designers argued that a milky blue color would provide better camouflage, but the Air Force "didn't think that was manly enough and ordered them painted black,"'

LOL
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/15/11 09:27 PM

Ok another link, Linebacker II:

http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/Patterns-and-Predictability.pdf
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/16/11 06:42 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Another article from not a very reliable source smile

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/1999/07/04/seeing-through-stealth.html

'Some of its designers argued that a milky blue color would provide better camouflage, but the Air Force "didn't think that was manly enough and ordered them painted black,"'

LOL


banghead

This article is rather about the politics of US military funding, than the actual event.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/16/11 06:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Hpasp,
I looked for your answer about Elliptic Search method, but I couldn't find it... What about now? Could you explain that?
Also, why PRF is changed when we change the range scale?
And what's this switch on I64V panel that frighten the SR71?

Thanks again.
PS:. If anyone could answer my question about casualties in North Vietnam SAM sites I'd be pleased.


PRF, at 150km range mode, the emitted electromagnetic impulse has to travel twice the distance, compared to 75km mode, thus we could send out half of the amount compared to 75km.
(half number of vertical lines)

RPK

The RPK system is continuously calculating and creating the missile guidance commands, even when they are not launched.
Those signals could be sent to the dummy load, or emitted by the P16 antenna.
With this switch, you can select between dummy load (EKV) or the P16 (ANT).
When missile is launched, this switch is overruled and the commands are emitted via the P16.
If the P16 is selected (manually or automatically), it is indicated by the green lamp.
At the Volhov, if the system is in BR and 75km mode, the RPK signals are automatically sent to the P16 to frighten the enemy.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/16/11 07:21 AM

Another historical SA-2 scenario, the ambush on the Wolin island.

http://www.infowsparcie.net/wria/images/s75/zasadzka.png

The only problem is that you shouldn't fire.
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/16/11 01:22 PM

Thank you Hpasp! But, in fact, I had asked about it months ago, but the answer was "check station readness"

Is there any other switch in lower red circle that've any use in combat situation?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/16/11 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Thank you Hpasp! But, in fact, I had asked about it months ago, but the answer was "check station readness"

Is there any other switch in lower red circle that've any use in combat situation?


At the S-75M3 Volhov (SA-2E), RPK - EKV/ANT switch should not be used in real combat, as the BR/75km mode has the same effect.
With the upcoming SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2B/F) you will have to operate this switch, to frighten your enemy...

Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/16/11 08:30 PM

Hpasp, could you explain what this switch does? (SA-2, screen Z).
It is clickable but I think it was not mentioned in the manual.


Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/16/11 10:30 PM

You have the same on the right of Z screen - two switches for wartime frequency (never used in peacetime - hence secured), for epsilon (left) and beta (right) antennas. Similar functions can be found in Krug and Neva (just look for secured switches smile ).

I recommend reading this forum (83 pages and growing, I know...) and the previous thread about SAM simulator, and any of you will find answers for most of your questions.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/17/11 05:31 AM

Thanks!
I checked on the previous forum (just 34 pages) and it was already midnight smile

Originally Posted By: vintorez

I recommend reading this forum (83 pages and growing, I know...) and the previous thread about SAM simulator, and any of you will find answers for most of your questions.
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/19/11 09:50 AM

...and now everybody is scrolling through previous posts, and our thread went dead. smile
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/19/11 10:05 AM

Yeah, but whose fault is it? smile
You just said RTPP smile

Originally Posted By: vintorez
...and now everybody is scrolling through previous posts, and our thread went dead. smile
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/20/11 06:41 AM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
...and now everybody is scrolling through previous posts, and our thread went dead.smile


don't expect that ! we will revive it ..... Charge
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/20/11 07:23 AM

SAM Simulator, SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B/F) work in progress pictures.

Dvina specialties...

- 34km maximum range is only 60% of the Volhov 55km.
No passive flight phase of the missile, due to three component liquid engine.

- Note the 4.2 degree line.

- Instead of using the I87V, you can calculate the jamming target distance with the table.



- Note the three horn SNR azimuth direction pointer.



thumbsup
Posted By: arkhangelsk

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/20/11 01:55 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
I recommend reading this forum (83 pages and growing, I know...) and the previous thread about SAM simulator, and any of you will find answers for most of your questions.


I used to prefer to load this entire thread as one page, but now I can't do that because it is so darn long my ancient computer runs out of RAM trying to load it.
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/20/11 04:24 PM

"No passive flight phase of the missile, due to three component liquid engine."

What do you mean, Hpasp? Does the missile go out of control as soon as the fuel runs out?
And what is 'three component' and what (technical) difference versus Volkhov does it make?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/20/11 08:50 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
"No passive flight phase of the missile, due to three component liquid engine."

What do you mean, Hpasp? Does the missile go out of control as soon as the fuel runs out?
And what is 'three component' and what (technical) difference versus Volkhov does it make?


Beside the two nasty material, used by the Volhov missile...

AK-20K “Melanj” oxidizer (“O” substance) tank.
Weight / Composition: 550kg / Nitric Tetroxide in solution with Nitric Acid, with Phosphoric and Fluoric acid inhibitors.
20±2,5% N2O4, 73,4% HNO3, 1-1,25% H3PO4, 0,5% HF, 2±0,8% H2O
Orange-brown, evaporating liquid. Self ignites combustibles. Highly corrosive, only few materials can withstand its effect: chromium steel, pure aluminum, glass, and for a short period, some rubber mixes.

TG-02 “Samine” fuel (“G” substance) tank.
Weight / Composition: 250kg / mixture of xilidine, and triethylamine.
50% C8H11N, 50% C6H15N
Oily liquid, with color from yellow to dark-brown, and an odor typical for for satured animes.
Strong nerve agent, fatal concentration in air is: 18mg/liter!

... the Dvina missiles used a third one also...

OT-155 "Isopropyl nitrate" monocomponent fuel ("I" substance)
... as nasty as the other two.
nope
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/22/11 07:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

OT-155 "Isopropyl nitrate" monocomponent fuel ("I" substance)
... as nasty as the other two.
nope


Be careful, everybody! Can be found in your diesel fuel smile

wikipedia - Isopropyl nitrate

And not everyone knows it is nasty smile

I swallowed isopropyl nitrate...

Interestingly, there are also voices recommending milk as an antidotum. I wonder, was there a milk tank in Dvina batteries? It must have been a challenge to store milk in tropical conditions of North Vietnam (I mean, effective cooling system, hygiene, etc., and last but not least, supplies - I think Melange and Tonka were easier to get than milk in Vietnam at that time smile )

But jokes aside, can you imagine problems those guys had to overcome to do maintenance and fueling of the missiles in so harsh a field conditions? Fatal accidents must have not been uncommon... Not mentioning the condition of Vietnamese environment (I don't believe that in wartime every drop of "nasty stuff" was deactivated - it usually got a great deal of time and nerves during peacetime).

Anyway, looking forward to fire a Dvina. I can see a lot of progress.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/22/11 05:34 PM

Did you notice anything special in this panel?



Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/22/11 08:33 PM

Most of switch names is in English, and some reflect English terminology, e.g. Line-of-Sight (LOS) or Continuous-Line-of-Sight (CLOS) is English name for 3-point guidance method. Why?
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/23/11 03:02 AM

need some paint ??? neaner
Posted By: oldpop

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/23/11 12:28 PM

Boy, wish this could be included in FSX with the VRS SB and TACPAC!!!
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/23/11 12:57 PM

Originally Posted By: STARRON1
Boy, wish this could be included in FSX with the VRS SB and TACPAC!!!


I hereby propose to ban any aviator-minded statments. Our community stands firm on the ground! smile
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/23/11 02:25 PM

Look at it from a different angle: you'd be able to shoot'em down! smile

Originally Posted By: vintorez
I hereby propose to ban any aviator-minded statments. Our community stands firm on the ground! smile
Posted By: oldpop

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/23/11 11:10 PM

What would SAM's do without aircraft, shoot at other sams?
DUD!!!!
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/24/11 06:01 AM

Well, yes... kind of... SCUDs and stuff...
Be our target PLEASE!!!

Originally Posted By: STARRON1
What would SAM's do without aircraft, shoot at other sams?
DUD!!!!
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/24/11 10:59 AM


Originally Posted By: STARRON1
What would SAM's do without aircraft, shoot at other sams?
DUD!!!!


You're from the US? Ask your military what they use SAMs for. You'll be kinda surprised.
Hint: "our air superiority will not allow any aircraft to get within SAM range" smile
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/24/11 11:14 AM

Yep, but that's just propaganda. I'm sure their flares and chaff are 100% effective smile

Originally Posted By: vintorez
"our air superiority will not allow any aircraft to get within SAM range" smile

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/24/11 03:10 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Yep, but that's just propaganda. I'm sure their flares and chaff are 100% effective smile

Originally Posted By: vintorez
"our air superiority will not allow any aircraft to get within SAM range" smile



One of the main purpose of this simulator, to teach the users of the capabilities, and limitations of these elderly (and mystic) SAM systems.
They are like a "samurai sword" in modern warfare, pretty obsolete and old fashioned weapons, but if you do not take them seriously, they can be still deadly.



Just to clarify, what I mean obsolete...

Dvina/Volhov/Neva are the products of the 50's.
(60 years ago!!!)

Vega is the product of the 60's.
(50 years ago!!!)

S-300PT/PS (SA-10) are the systems, that were developed in the 70's.
(40 years ago!!!)

The S-300PM (SA-20) is the system developed during the 80's.
(30 years ago!!!)

The S-400 (SA-21) is the only SAM system that was developed in the past 20 years.

That's what I mean obsolete...
Posted By: zacklaws

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/25/11 11:50 AM

Just come across the following website and plenty to read. As I have a big interest in Vietnam, especially the airwar, I'm suprised I have not found this site before.

http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~tpilsch/Vietnam.html#MapRez
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/26/11 12:42 AM

Hi to all!

Hpasp: I have a question:

Can C-75 or S-125 (or even S-300), acquire a target lower than his horizon line, if it's positioned in high altitude (in high mountain for example).
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/26/11 06:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi to all!

Hpasp: I have a question:

Can C-75 or S-125 (or even S-300), acquire a target lower than his horizon line, if it's positioned in high altitude (in high mountain for example).


SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B/F) - NO
S-75M Volvov (SA-2E) - Yes*
S-125M Neva (SA-3B) - Yes*
S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B) - Yes*

*Usually -3 degree in Epsilon.
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/26/11 07:08 AM

The Polish Wikipedia (yeah I know) says:

In the 1970s it was proved that the system (S-75) is effective in engaging seaborne surface targets when fired from launchers placed on a cliff or high shore with the launcher beam set at the minimum elevation angle.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/26/11 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
The Polish Wikipedia (yeah I know) says:

In the 1970s it was proved that the system (S-75) is effective in engaging seaborne surface targets when fired from launchers placed on a cliff or high shore with the launcher beam set at the minimum elevation angle.


Typical Wiki, partly true...

The PU is always elevated higher than the SNR.
(To give the missile enough elevation above the SNR LOS to fall during the first 3sec unguided flight.)

When the SNR is at 0 elevation, it locks down. (black instrument hand)
The PU this time is elevated at 18degree. (red instrument hand)


So the real question, is if the SNR is able to lock on the ship, that is below the SNR LOS?

This is where H<5 comes into the picture, as it actually moves the LOS down 3 degree.
So now the SNR will only lock down at -3 degree. (at 10km range, it is more than 500m below the SNR)
thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/26/11 09:57 AM

But you answered in more detail so it works!
smile

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Typical Wiki, partly true...
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/27/11 07:26 PM

Quotation from

http://www.25thaviation.org/johnkerry/id27.htm

"22 This opens up another interesting aspect of the much touted “horrors” of the 1972 Christmas bombing of Hanoi. In response to this bombing, the North Vietnamese and their Soviet “advisors” fired 1,242 Soviet made SAMs at the American war planes. Twenty six American planes were hit by SAMs. The other 1,216 SAMs, with warheads in tact, fell back to earth in the Hanoi – Hai Phong area. Has anyone ever heard of, seen or read a report that describes the damage and deaths caused by these self-inflicted missile strikes?"

What about missile self-destruction system used in missiles fired in Vietnam?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/29/11 06:50 AM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Quotation from

http://www.25thaviation.org/johnkerry/id27.htm

"22 This opens up another interesting aspect of the much touted “horrors” of the 1972 Christmas bombing of Hanoi. In response to this bombing, the North Vietnamese and their Soviet “advisors” fired 1,242 Soviet made SAMs at the American war planes. Twenty six American planes were hit by SAMs. The other 1,216 SAMs, with warheads in tact, fell back to earth in the Hanoi – Hai Phong area. Has anyone ever heard of, seen or read a report that describes the damage and deaths caused by these self-inflicted missile strikes?"

What about missile self-destruction system used in missiles fired in Vietnam?


All Dvina missiles has self destruction system.
The number of fired missiles are over exaggerated.
nope
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 08/29/11 09:04 AM

Thanks, that's what I though.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
All Dvina missiles has self destruction system.
The number of fired missiles are over exaggerated.
nope
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/02/11 09:06 AM

Upcoming SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B/F) work in progress pics...

... Digital Elevation, to display ground clutter.


... documentation.


thumbsup
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 01:00 PM

Hpasp, do you know why some radars have 'sound-related' NATO reporting names?
E.g. 'Hawk Screech', etc.
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 02:25 PM

A couple of photos.
To incite the interest =)
Soon will be More.

Museum of Air Defense Forces - http://s2.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110905/Kv5E6U2H.jpg

U-2 fragments in a Central Museum of Russian Army - http://s2.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110905/TQ6Jid5U.jpg
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Amidkor
A couple of photos.
To incite the interest =)
Soon will be More.

Museum of Air Defense Forces - http://s2.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110905/Kv5E6U2H.jpg


Ahhh, S-125M Neva, S-300PT Biryusa, and S-75M Volhov
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Hpasp, do you know why some radars have 'sound-related' NATO reporting names?
E.g. 'Hawk Screech', etc.


Yes, most of the reporting names are about a properties of these radars.

SA-2
SNR-75M - "Fan Song" is the sound the Weasel Pilots heard in their EW suite.
P-18 - "Spoon Rest" just look on those antenna...

SA-3
SNR-125M - "Low Blow" is about the effective minimum altitude (20m)

SA-4
1S32M - "Pat Hand" is the sound the Weasel Pilots heard in their EW suite.
1S12M - "Long Track" has really long one

SA-5
5N62V - "Square Pair" just take a look on it smile
P-14 - "Tall King" is really the tallest.

SA-6
1S91 - "Straight Flush" is a poker hand with 5 cards. Here it is the 5 frequency the SURN uses during engagement.

SA-10
30N6 - "Flap Lid" of the MAZ.
76N6 - "Clam Shell" just look at it smile
36D6 - "Tin Shield" just look at it smile

thumbsup
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Amidkor
A couple of photos.
To incite the interest =)
Soon will be More.

Museum of Air Defense Forces - http://s2.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110905/Kv5E6U2H.jpg


Ahhh, S-125M Neva, S-300PT Biryusa, and S-75M Volhov
thumbsup

and S-25 too wink
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Amidkor
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Amidkor
A couple of photos.
To incite the interest =)
Soon will be More.

Museum of Air Defense Forces - http://s2.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110905/Kv5E6U2H.jpg


Ahhh, S-125M Neva, S-300PT Biryusa, and S-75M Volhov
thumbsup

and S-25 too wink


Where???

This is the S-300PT (SA-10A).


Note the clock in the middle...
cowboy
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 04:32 PM

after S-75 - http://s2.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110905/707I5xhm.jpg
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 05:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Where???

This is the S-300PT (SA-10A).


Note the clock in the middle...
cowboy



If you compare it to the S-300PS Volhov-M6 (SA-10B), you can see the effort went into the optimization between 1978 and 1983...

thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Amidkor


Right!
thumbsup

I just need better pictures, to expand the simulator with these systems...
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 06:12 PM

Amidkor, do you have 'daily' access to that museum? Maybe 'better pictures' of S-300 PT are just one step ahead?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 06:57 PM

I would like to note the difference of the SA-10/20/21 systems.
I feel, that the situation is closer to the time of the SA-2, where three systems were mixed by the west.

Just to make it clear...

SA-75 Dvina - SA-2A with missiles 1D, 11D
SA-75M Dvina - SA-2B/F with missile 11D
S-75 Desna - SA-2C with missile 13D
S-75M Volhov - SA-2E with missiles 20D, 5Ya23

... so:

The first release of the S-300P system was accepted in 1978.
It was the S-300PT Biryusa - SA-10A, and it succeeded the S-25 Berkut - SA-1 ring around Moscow.
It used the V-500K 5V55K (Grumble mod.0) missile, with 47km range utilizing command guidance.



The second release of the S-300P system was accepted in 1983.
It was the S-300PS Volhov-M6 - SA-10B, and it succeeded the S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) and S-125M Neva (SA-3B) units around the Soviet Union.
Its export version was called S-300PMU Volhov-M6 - SA-10B, and it become available from 1988, and was exported into Bulgaria, China, and Slovakia. (GDR)
It used the V-500R 5V55R (Grumble mod.1) missile, with 75km range utilizing seeker aided ground guidance.



The third release of the S-300P system was accepted in 1989.
It was the S-300PM Volhov-M6M - SA-20A, and it succeeded the remaining S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) and S-125M Neva (SA-3B) units around the Soviet Union.
Its export version was called S-300PMU-1 Volhov-M6M - SA-20A, and it become available from 1994, and was exported into China, Greece and Vietnam.
It used the 48N6 (Gargoyle mod.0) missile with 150km range, utilizing seeker aided ground guidance and lofted flight profile.



The fourth release of the S-300P system was accepted in 2004.
It is the S-300PMU-2 Favorit SA-20B, and is available for export only, to satisfy the wannabe customer of the S-400 system, China.
It used the 48N6D (Gargoyle mod.1) missile with 200km range, utilizing seeker aided ground guidance and lofted flight profile.



The fifth release of the S-300P system was accepted in 2007.
It is the S-400 Triumph - SA-21, and it succeeded the S-200 (SA-5) units around the Soviet Union.
It is not available for export.
It uses the 48N6DM (Growler) missile with 250km range, utilizing seeker aided ground guidance and lofted flight profile.




thumbsup


Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/05/11 08:46 PM

Thanks very much!
Do you happen to have some audio files? smile

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Yes, most of the reporting names are about a properties of these radars.

SA-2
SNR-75M - "Fan Song" is the sound the Weasel Pilots heard in their EW suite.

Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/06/11 02:43 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
Amidkor, do you have 'daily' access to that museum?

No, i don't have =(
I was there for the first time and short-lived. We were late to the next place = (
I live in Siberia. More than 3,500 kilometers from Moscow =)
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/06/11 03:39 PM

Hi, Hpasp!

Congratulations for your good work with the simulator. I have a question, how can I download any data f
rom yandex? It gaves me some .djvu extension on files and I can't read them.
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/06/11 04:06 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
It gaves me some .djvu extension on files and I can't read them.

Djvu reader - http://sourceforge.net/projects/windjview/files/
Posted By: PN79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/07/11 08:14 AM

When it comes to S-300 I would like to know if this system was offered to non-Warsaw Pact nations before disintegrations of the USSR. In late 80s Soviets offered to export pratically same items to Warsaw Pact as to other countries with hard currency including Su-24, T-72S (export of soviet T-72B), etc. but S-300 was exception (together with Tochka and Oka ballistic missiles).

And something from central european late history. During Meciar regime in Slovakia, which inherited one S-300PMU battery, Slovakia wanted to gain one battery of S-300PMU-1 (Slovak army demands at that time actually called for three S-300 batteries). The deal for S-300PMU-1 was signed but only shortly before fall of Meciar and his "democracy with boxing-gloves" and new government terminated that deal.
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/07/11 10:40 AM

Thank you!
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/07/11 11:00 AM

I have a questions, about changing type of giudance and fuse settings when the missile is already lanched. Is it possible to guide 3 missiles at the same time with three different guiding methods (with the real complex). Is it possible to switch from one guiding method to another during flight of the missile? Can fuse settings be changed during the flight of the missile? (this is for the Volkhov)
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/07/11 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By: PN79
When it comes to S-300 I would like to know if this system was offered to non-Warsaw Pact nations before disintegrations of the USSR. In late 80s Soviets offered to export pratically same items to Warsaw Pact as to other countries with hard currency including Su-24, T-72S (export of soviet T-72B), etc. but S-300 was exception (together with Tochka and Oka ballistic missiles).


Basically before the end of the Cold War, only the S-300PMU (SA-10B) was available, with the 5V55R missile.
Bulgaria, China, and Czechoslovakia got the system, GDR and Hungary only planned it.
(Crew trained, garrison selected)

(In the SIM, at the Hungary map, if you click around Budapest units, you can recognize, that two battery is missing from the 11th Brigade...)

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/07/11 01:54 PM

I have a questions, about changing type of giudance and fuse settings when the missile is already lanched. Is it possible to guide 3 missiles at the same time with three different guiding methods (with the real complex).

Yes

Is it possible to switch from one guiding method to another during flight of the missile?

Yes, but the chance of a kill is reduced.
There is a red lamp on the I-32V panel, if it illuminates, you should not change, or your chances of a kill will be marginal.

Can fuse settings be changed during the flight of the missile? (this is for the Volkhov)

No.
Only 4 commands are available: K1,K2,K3,K4
thumbsup
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/07/11 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
I have a questions, about changing type of giudance and fuse settings when the missile is already lanched. Is it possible to guide 3 missiles at the same time with three different guiding methods (with the real complex).

Yes

Is it possible to switch from one guiding method to another during flight of the missile?

Yes, but the chance of a kill is reduced.
There is a red lamp on the I-32V panel, if it illuminates, you should not change, or your chances of a kill will be marginal.

Can fuse settings be changed during the flight of the missile? (this is for the Volkhov)

No.
Only 4 commands are available: K1,K2,K3,K4
thumbsup


You mean the lamp for 25 seconds, if I understand you correctly.
So, if I launch a missile against a target which travels at medium altitude with subsonic speed, and after the launching, the target accelerates and decrease his altitude to below 300 meters, then what I should do??? If I have a missile on the launcher - ok - switch to "<1" mode, then change the the fuse settings to 100 meters, but if I just launched my last one?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/07/11 06:51 PM

You mean the lamp for 25 seconds, if I understand you correctly.

Yes


So, if I launch a missile against a target which travels at medium altitude with subsonic speed, and after the launching, the target accelerates and decrease his altitude to below 300 meters, then what I should do??? If I have a missile on the launcher - ok - switch to "<1" mode, then change the the fuse settings to 100 meters, but if I just launched my last one?


There was a recommendation, that the last missile of the three should be launched with RAB.po.K3. (radio proximity fuse switched off, detonate by command)
Anyway, if the target flies below 5km, you should use method K guidance, and H<5.
(manual page 46)

H<1 is not modeled in the sim, it has no effect.
cowboy
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 08:51 AM

Hi!
there is some new magic words ... can we have deep explanation for them:
1- seeker aided ground guidance.
2- lofted flight profile.

our stuff of S-300PMU2 is now Operational !
you can add Algeria as official user of it ! ... dance... dance

what about a series of S-300V/VM? some summarize about it ..
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 09:07 AM

I have make this for our DZ forum:


HD résolution 3500x2465 can be found Her,

I'm waiting for your comment (and correction so).

(this one is not 100% in English, sorry about that, I will make another in EN. at 100% after some corrections and ads !)
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 09:26 AM

@ Kairo - Isn't SAGG just a Russian expression for TVM (Track-via-Missile)?
@ Hpasp - for such lofted trajectory - is it similar to what the US have already invented for Nike-Hercules, and (solved in a slightly other way) combined guidance flight profile for Vega's 5V28? Was it intended to extend the missile range, and / or to improve its initial position to engage a maneuvering target (from above)?

http://www.thuleforum.com/nike.htm - already mentioned in this thread, discusses Hercules flight profiles

S-300PMU2 - congratulations! Could you ask your colleagues to borrow a copy of Altek-300 sim software to our community? smile
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 09:54 AM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
@ Kairo - Isn't SAGG just a Russian expression for TVM (Track-via-Missile)?
S-300PMU2 - congratulations! Could you ask your colleagues to borrow a copy of Altek-300 sim software to our community? smile


(Track-via-Missile)? -- I really don't know ?

Could you ask ...
are you ... screwy .. do you want me to be ... boom .. , it's our national security men ... ask others country who stoped using it ... it's more safe ... yep
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 10:44 AM

Do not confuse three pairs of notions:
- piracy and espionage;
- Almaz's copyright with any country's national security (dependant upon many things, software simulators being rather close to the end of such list);
- and finally, better and worse jokes smile. Should it be legal to get it without being a S-300 user, it would be already offered for sale at Almaz's website. Everybody likes making money. smile I'm confident about the future, when S-300 finally gets an Excess Defence Article status, but - will we be still alive until then? smile

About TVM (using layperson-to-layperson method - Hpasp, please react decisively for any blasphemy):
first, about two guidance systems we already use in SAMSIM:
1) pure command guidance: missile absolutely 'dumb', flies where fire control radar directs it to do so (Wolkhov, Neva, Krug). In order to do so, radar should accurately see when the target and missile is.
2) semi-active radar homing, when missile knows accurately just direction of the target (not distance), homing on reflected radar signal (not own, but fire control radar's - that's how Vega works). Radar does not need neither to see accurately the target nor the missile position - just keep the beam on the target, fire when in range (plus-minus hundreds of meters), and missile will find its way. Better than method 1, but the missile still can react in its only one fixed way (guidance method, e.g. half-lead) for target maneuvers. Generally works well, but... (see: target maneuvers)

Track-via-Missile combines advantages of two guidance systems. Imagine a missile having a good "nose" (semi-active radar seeker) but otherwise dumb, and under constant oversight from a ground-based "brain" (fire control radar) that tracks target and missile at the same time and can direct the missile to better react for target's behaviour. Furthermore, the missile can transmit what it "sees" (target position in angle versus missile) back to the radar - and ta-daaa, we have target info from two sources!
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 10:49 AM

By the way, anyone knows the market price for S-300PMU(x) battery?

(yes, just in case that Altek-300 wouldn't be for sale as stand-alone smile )
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo
I have make this for our DZ forum:


HD résolution 3500x2465 can be found Her,

I'm waiting for your comment (and correction so).

(this one is not 100% in English, sorry about that, I will make another in EN. at 100% after some corrections and ads !)


Left colunm is about S-300V instead of S-300F written here
Somehow SA-10B is under it.

S-300PM is SA-10B
S-300PM2 Favorit is not fielded in Russia, only avaiable for export.

S-300PMU-1A is surplus
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 11:18 AM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
@ Kairo - Isn't SAGG just a Russian expression for TVM (Track-via-Missile)?
@ Hpasp - for such lofted trajectory - is it similar to what the US have already invented for Nike-Hercules, and (solved in a slightly other way) combined guidance flight profile for Vega's 5V28? Was it intended to extend the missile range, and / or to improve its initial position to engage a maneuvering target (from above)?


SAGG is the US expression describing the Russian "TWM" guidance method.

Russians simply call the two guidance method used by the S-300P as proportional or combined.
(They are similar to the Vega)
thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 12:00 PM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
By the way, anyone knows the market price for S-300PMU(x) battery?

(yes, just in case that Altek-300 wouldn't be for sale as stand-alone smile )


approximation: 150M$ to 170M$ ... only .
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 12:54 PM

Guys, why don't you relax, watch this beautiful scene and have fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKsreHMX3xE

Originally Posted By: Kairo
are you ... screwy .. do you want me to be ... boom ..
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 01:51 PM

Yeah, always nice to see duel result like that... but - a simple Strela-10 missing and finding its way back several times (including at least one 180 deg turn to regain lock at 2:16)? I suspect it was steered by a dwarf in a micro-cockpit in the nose! (evidence: cockpit front glass clearly seen at 0:42, dwarf ejecting at 2:23 just before impact, revealing warhead behind the cockpit) smile

Or, wasn't it a Strela 10? (weird shape, burning time over 100 sec...) smile

Relaxing indeed, thx MK_PL!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 02:42 PM

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Guys, why don't you relax, watch this beautiful scene and have fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKsreHMX3xE



Strela-10...
... the real one:
Has 5km max range, the missile has approx 550m/s speed...
... so the engagement is finished within 10s.


Relaxing...
banghead
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/08/11 07:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
H<1 is not modeled in the sim, it has no effect.
cowboy


Hi, what else is not modeled in the simulator? I find that manual is realy helpful, but still have a lot of questions... Here some..:

1. How T/T&#1048;87&#1042; works? I mean how calculates deviation of impact point? By changing of power of jamming noise (approaching jammer - stronger signal)?
2. Why changing "Beams" changes sector of receiving of the signal, when tracking jamming targets? At least receiving antenas for "Wide" and "Pencil" beams are the same, so it should't "cut" my sector of receiving?
3. When I want to transmit fake launch signal, should I switch "Peredatchik" on, or when I switch THE SWITCH ( RPK) wink to "antena". it is transmited via P-16 antena?
4. What "&#1056;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086; &#1040;&#1044;&#1040;" means?

This is for now... Better find me a huge book for C-75, or I keep asking... biggrin
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/09/11 05:32 AM

3. When I want to transmit fake launch signal, should I switch "Peredatchik" on, or when I switch THE SWITCH ( RPK) wink to "antena". it is transmited via P-16 antena?

PEREDATCHIK will show "SA2" on the RWR
RPK swithc to ANT will show "LAUNCH" on the RWR
thumbsup

Also with the Volhov, 75km mode plus BR (live fire) will cause the SNR to emit launch signals.

2. Why changing "Beams" changes sector of receiving of the signal, when tracking jamming targets? At least receiving antenas for "Wide" and "Pencil" beams are the same, so it should't "cut" my sector of receiving?

No, the pencil beam antennas are emitting, and receiving the target channel.
The wide beam antennas are receiving the missile channel only.

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/09/11 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
4. What "&#1056;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086; &#1040;&#1044;&#1040;" means?


hmmm...
biggrin

ps: forum does not support Cyrillic letters
Posted By: vintorez

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/09/11 07:46 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79


Hi, what else is not modeled in the simulator? I find that manual is realy helpful, but still have a lot of questions... Here some..:

1. How T/T (??) works? I mean how calculates deviation of impact point? By changing of power of jamming noise (approaching jammer - stronger signal)?





Look, at the T/T method impact point has little importance. The missile attempts to fly on a straight line "connecting" radar to jamming target. The target MUST be somewhere along that line, and radio fuse will find out where smile You need to know target distance only roughly (e.g. from P-18) to determine if the target is in range.

If you mean I87V T/T, I guess that I87V uses some analogue calculator to determine distance using simple trigonometry (altitude / elevation).

By the way, Hpasp, why 'narow beam' and LORO are not available in H<5 mode? By deduction, narrow or pencil beams should be better suited for small altitudes, because this eliminates huge deal of ground clutter (that's the reason why SNR-125 stops scanning in elevation in MV mode - 1 deg. or less).
And, are there any arguments (I mean, arising out of radar specifications) against using e.g. LORO at small altitudes, except for the possibility that the radar jams when reaching 0 deg.?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/09/11 09:34 AM

By the way, Hpasp, why 'narow beam' and LORO are not available in H<5 mode? By deduction, narrow or pencil beams should be better suited for small altitudes, because this eliminates huge deal of ground clutter (that's the reason why SNR-125 stops scanning in elevation in MV mode - 1 deg. or less).

Hmmm...
... it would be much easier to explain it in real life, but I try.

During Wide Beam scanning, in the Beta screen (azimuth) you scan 20 degree in azimuth, and 7 degree in elevation.


By switching to the Narrow Beam antennas, you limit your coverage into 7,5 degree in azimuth, and 1,7 degree in elevation.




By switching H<5 mode, you move the elevation boresight down by 3 degrees.



In the Narrow Beam case, combined with H<5, you would simply move the boresight OUT OF THE COVERAGE OF THE AZIMUTH BEAM, and loose your target.




dizzy

Posted By: Vympel

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/09/11 11:58 AM

So only the boresight, and not whole scaning area, go down 3 degrees? Now it makes sence.

Edit: Wait, now I confused myself. duh

Edit2: Ok, I got it now! thumbsup
p.s. Its fun arguing with myself.
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/09/11 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

2. Why changing "Beams" changes sector of receiving of the signal, when tracking jamming targets? At least receiving antenas for "Wide" and "Pencil" beams are the same, so it should't "cut" my sector of receiving?

No, the pencil beam antennas are emitting, and receiving the target channel.
The wide beam antennas are receiving the missile channel only.


Please, check 24 page of the manual. It says that receiving antenas for "Podsvetka" (and for "Wide beam")for the missile and the target are P-12V and P-11V... When we are trackin' jamming target, we use only receiving antenas {and P-16, of course), right? So, I still don't understand...
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/09/11 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Vympel
So only the boresight, and not whole scaning area, go down 3 degrees? Now it makes sence.

Edit: Wait, now I confused myself. duh

Edit2: Ok, I got it now! thumbsup
p.s. Its fun arguing with myself.


Please, explain to us... Is it because of 0 elevation lock?
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/09/11 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: piston79
4. What "&#1056;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086; &#1040;&#1044;&#1040;" means?


hmmm...
biggrin

ps: forum does not support Cyrillic letters


Sorry... duh

It was "Rabota po ADA" on the switch of fuse settings....
Posted By: Vympel

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/09/11 09:59 PM

Ok, this is how I see it:
Boresight is a direction, a line, from the antenna where the signal (reception) is strongest (That is the optical axis of the antenna. Further you get from the boresight, weaker the signal will be). In wide mode when you lower the boresight -3 degrees, reception from above the boresight is still good enough to detect a target. But in narrow mode, beam is narrower (of course) so now when you lower the boresight -3 degrees 'top most part' of the beam, capable of detecting targets, is about 2 degrees under the horizon.
Ive included my own picture, RED - boresight, Green - target, BLACK lines - beam width. This is how I think this is happening, if I am wrong Hpasp will surely try to correct me.



p.s. It would be alot easier to explain in person, as Hpasp said, because of all the hand-waving and face-making you can do. biggrin
p.p.s. Oh, and the shape of the beam is not exactly a triangle, it is more of a ellipse. This might clarify my post a bit.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/10/11 05:51 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79

Please, check 24 page of the manual. It says that receiving antenas for "Podsvetka" (and for "Wide beam")for the missile and the target are P-12V and P-11V... When we are trackin' jamming target, we use only receiving antenas {and P-16, of course), right? So, I still don't understand...


Hmmm...
... than the manual is wrong.

Wide Beam
Target - P11V,P12V
Missiles - P11V,P12V

Narrow Beam
Target - P13V,P14V
Missiles - P11V,P12V

Podsvet
Target - P13V,P14V for emit, and P11V,P12V for receive
Missiles - P11V,P12V
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/10/11 06:01 AM

Boresight is a direction, a line, from the antenna where the signal (reception) is strongest (That is the optical axis of the antenna. Further you get from the boresight, weaker the signal will be).

No.
Boresight is the line, where the system is guiding the missiles.


Both screens are for elevation (Epsilon).
Left is normal mode, right is H<5.

On the right side, with H<5, the boresight of the system (where it aims) is moved 3 degree down from the center of the antenna beam.
Now, you can aim at -3degree while the system is locked down at 0 degree in elevation, and also the clutter is less in the Azimuth screen.

Am I confusing enough?
dizzy
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/10/11 06:07 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79


Sorry... duh

It was "Rabota po ADA" on the switch of fuse settings....


Its against spy balloons, used in the '50s.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/10/11 06:17 AM

Originally Posted By: vintorez
Originally Posted By: piston79


Hi, what else is not modeled in the simulator? I find that manual is realy helpful, but still have a lot of questions... Here some..:

1. How T/T (??) works? I mean how calculates deviation of impact point? By changing of power of jamming noise (approaching jammer - stronger signal)?





Look, at the T/T method impact point has little importance. The missile attempts to fly on a straight line "connecting" radar to jamming target. The target MUST be somewhere along that line, and radio fuse will find out where smile You need to know target distance only roughly (e.g. from P-18) to determine if the target is in range.

If you mean I87V T/T, I guess that I87V uses some analogue calculator to determine distance using simple trigonometry (altitude / elevation).


T/T method with RAB.OT.VM. arming (just after launch) is good against jamming targets, unless...
... target is flying low, and the armed radio prxy fuse is confused by the signals from the ground.

or

Above Hanoi, the USAF had the nasty habit of laying chaff corridor under the jamming B52's.
If you would launch with T/T RAB.OT.VM, than the missile would pop off when it reaches the chaff corridor.

This is when the I87-T/T comes to play, as it calculates an approximate jamming target distance, so the proxy fuse is not armed, until flies above the chaff corridor.
cowboy
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/10/11 07:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: piston79

Please, check 24 page of the manual. It says that receiving antenas for "Podsvetka" (and for "Wide beam")for the missile and the target are P-12V and P-11V... When we are trackin' jamming target, we use only receiving antenas {and P-16, of course), right? So, I still don't understand...


Hmmm...
... than the manual is wrong.

Wide Beam
Target - P11V,P12V
Missiles - P11V,P12V


Narrow Beam
Target - P13V,P14V
Missiles - P11V,P12V

Podsvet
Target - P13V,P14V for emit, and P11V,P12V for receive
Missiles - P11V,P12V




I think you wrote the same... Or I've just missed the point... frown
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/10/11 07:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Boresight is a direction, a line, from the antenna where the signal (reception) is strongest (That is the optical axis of the antenna. Further you get from the boresight, weaker the signal will be).

No.
Boresight is the line, where the system is guiding the missiles.

Both screens are for elevation (Epsilon).
Left is normal mode, right is H<5.

On the right side, with H<5, the boresight of the system (where it aims) is moved 3 degree down from the center of the antenna beam.
Now, you can aim at -3degree while the system is locked down at 0 degree in elevation, and also the clutter is less in the Azimuth screen.

Am I confusing enough?
dizzy


No! smile As I thought... The maximum of the diagram of emition is pointed at least 3 degrees above the ground (i.e. ground clutters) and we have clear picture on the screen, but missile is aiming a bit lower.... So we have 0 degree target with 3 degree antena elevation. Did I get it right??? And that's why we can shoot from sea cleaf against a ship on sea level smile
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/10/11 07:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Above Hanoi, the USAF had the nasty habit of laying chaff corridor under the jamming B52's.
If you would launch with T/T RAB.OT.VM, than the missile would pop off when it reaches the chaff corridor.

This is when the I87-T/T comes to play, as it calculates an approximate jamming target distance, so the proxy fuse is not armed, until flies above the chaff corridor.
cowboy


1. Did you simulate chafs? wink
2. When I am trackin' target with I87-T/T, with auto traking on elevation and altitude, this gadget calculates impact points, and shows me a distance boresight, which is approaching, or going away... As I understand, after choosing the elevation (or distance), it calculates the impact point, and due to changing the elevation and azimuth of jamming, it recalculates distance or height and new impact point....( this is what I observed during simulations wink ) Did I got it right???
3. Is it real, to change input data in I87-T/T, after locking the target on elev. and azimuth? Or in case after I've just launched the missile?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/11/11 06:28 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79

1. Did you simulate chafs? wink
2. When I am trackin' target with I87-T/T, with auto traking on elevation and altitude, this gadget calculates impact points, and shows me a distance boresight, which is approaching, or going away... As I understand, after choosing the elevation (or distance), it calculates the impact point, and due to changing the elevation and azimuth of jamming, it recalculates distance or height and new impact point....( this is what I observed during simulations wink ) Did I got it right???
3. Is it real, to change input data in I87-T/T, after locking the target on elev. and azimuth? Or in case after I've just launched the missile?


1, Yes, over Hanoi during the B52 raid.
thumbsup

2, Correct.
Just important to know, that the I87V/TT works assuming that the target does not change its altitude!
It is good against B52's, but goes crazy against nimble fighters.

3, Yes, as it does not change the intended flightpath of the missile.
It just change the point where the radio proxy fuse arm.
You are encouraged to update the I87V altitude data, as frequently as you got it from the plotting chart.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/11/11 07:18 AM

During the current MAKS-2011 air-show, there were an important development about the future of Russian SAM systems...

The Almaz design bureau, responsible for the current [S-300PT/PS/PMU (SA-10), S-300PM/PMU1/PMU2 (SA-20), S-400 (SA-21)] systems, took over the Antey design bureau, responsible for the [S-300V (SA-12), S-300VM (SA-23)].
The name of the new design bureau is Almaz-Antey.


The Almaz OKB, historically responsible for the S-25/S-75/S-125/S-200/S-300P/S-400 (SA-1/2/3/5/10/20/21) designs, managed the end of the Cold War in better (financial) shape.
The export successes (China, Cyprus, Vietnam, Algeria) of the S-300PMU1/PMU2 (SA-20) design, and the ongoing S-400 (SA-21) fielding in Russia created a solid financial background.

Meanwhile the Antej S-300V/VM (SA-12/23) systems lack of export, and the shrinking Russian army's lack of cash, leaded the bureau towards bankruptcy.

So the NEXT BIG THING the S-500 (S-400M) Triumph-M system will merge the four-hundred system capabilities (250km range against aerial targets), with the Antej pearls, its ABM capabilities (40km range against MRBMs [2500km medium range ballistic missiles]).

S-400 Triumph (SA-21) launcher


9M82 ABM missile of the Antej's S-300VM (SA-23) system


S-500 (S-400M) Triumph-M launcher with the Antey's ABM missile.


cowboy
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/11/11 10:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp1,Yes, over Hanoi during the B52 raid.
thumbsup [quote

Now I understand why my missile exploded before reaching the aiming point.. wink


2, Correct.
Just important to know, that the I87V/TT works assuming that the target does not change its altitude!
It is good against B52's, but goes crazy against nimble fighters.[/quote]

Yes, I've noticed that... Now I understand the reason why it happens... smile


Quote:
3, Yes, as it does not change the intended flightpath of the missile.
It just change the point where the radio proxy fuse arm.
You are encouraged to update the I87V altitude data, as frequently as you got it from the plotting chart.


OK, but is that have an efect after the missile is launched???? Maybe not, because as you previosly wrote, the fuse setting can be changed only before launching the missile. Please confirm...
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/11/11 12:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
During the current MAKS-2011 air-show, there were an important development about the future of Russian SAM systems...

The Almaz design bureau, responsible for the current [S-300PT/PS/PMU (SA-10), S-300PM/PMU1/PMU2 (SA-20), S-400 (SA-21)] systems, took over the Antey design bureau, responsible for the [S-300V (SA-12), S-300VM (SA-23)].
The name of the new design bureau is Almaz-Antey.

The Almaz OKB, historically responsible for the S-25/S-75/S-125/S-200/S-300P/S-400 (SA-1/2/3/5/10/20/21) designs, managed the end of the Cold War in better (financial) shape.
The export successes (China, Cyprus, Vietnam, Algeria) of the S-300PMU1/PMU2 (SA-20) design, and the ongoing S-400 (SA-21) fielding in Russia created a solid financial background.

Meanwhile the Antej S-300V/VM (SA-12/23) systems lack of export, and the shrinking Russian army's lack of cash, leaded the bureau towards bankruptcy.

So the NEXT BIG THING the S-500 (S-400M) Triumph-M system will merge the four-hundred system capabilities (250km range against aerial targets), with the Antej pearls, its ABM capabilities (40km range against MRBMs [2500km medium range ballistic missiles]).

S-400 Triumph (SA-21) launcher


9M82 ABM missile of the Antej's S-300VM (SA-23) system


S-500 (S-400M) Triumph-M launcher with the Antey's ABM missile.


cowboy


thank's for this simple and deep summarize, only Hpasp have this magic secret to do that, ... so simply, really ... thumbsup
can you expand info for S-300V series ?

Algerian team was sent to MAKS2011, and have take thumbsup ..thumbsup ..thumbsup Pics, found HER
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/13/11 07:13 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79

Quote:
3, Yes, as it does not change the intended flightpath of the missile.
It just change the point where the radio proxy fuse arm.
You are encouraged to update the I87V altitude data, as frequently as you got it from the plotting chart.


OK, but is that have an efect after the missile is launched???? Maybe not, because as you previosly wrote, the fuse setting can be changed only before launching the missile. Please confirm...


Getting into very deep of the radio proxy fuse workings...
eek2

Before launch, the instruction is transmitted to the missile via the launcher, what to do if it receives the K3 command, transmitted during flight from the SNR.
It has 3 options.
- immediately detonate on receive K3, do not switch on the radio proximity fuse, at all (RAB.PO.K3)
- switch on the radio proximity fuse, after receiving K3. Detonate if the fuse senses a plane (RV)
- switch on the radio proximity fuse immediately after launch, do not expect to receive K3. Detonate if the fuse senses a plane (RAB.OT.VM)
dizzy

So when you change the target altitude during I87V/TT guidance, you only change the distance from the SNR, where it emits the K3 towards the missile.
So it has effect when the missile is flying.
yep
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/13/11 07:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Kairo

can you expand info for S-300V series ?


Try this site: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Giant-Gladiator.html
thumbsup
Posted By: Kairo

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/13/11 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Kairo

can you expand info for S-300V series ?


Try this site: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Giant-Gladiator.html
thumbsup


exactly what I'm looking for .dance. thank's dear Hpasp!
Posted By: montieris

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/14/11 07:40 PM

Hello!


Not sure if this is mentioned but i found a fix to run this sim on widescreen displays (1060x1024,1680x1050 and higher) without misaligned buttons.

Right click on sam.exe > properties > on general tab name add; -window



Thanks.

edit. fix is not required for latest version.
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/15/11 07:28 AM

How it should look like? sam -window.exe?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/15/11 08:07 AM

Not sure if this is mentioned but i found a fix to run this sim on widescreen displays (1060x1024,1680x1050 and higher) without misaligned buttons.

Could you please explain this "misaligned button" issue?
The current version is developed on a widescreen... (1920x1080)
Posted By: montieris

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/15/11 02:42 PM

Oh, i was using older version and thought that new versions still have fixed resolution.
Sorry, my bad.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/15/11 05:22 PM

Nice...
thumbsup

Posted By: Sim

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/15/11 06:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Not sure if this is mentioned but i found a fix to run this sim on widescreen displays (1060x1024,1680x1050 and higher) without misaligned buttons.

Could you please explain this "misaligned button" issue?
The current version is developed on a widescreen... (1920x1080)


A) sim, to me, still doesn't recognize my resolutions.
B) When I run it (past error screen), all selectable buttons shifted to the right.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/15/11 06:30 PM

A) sim, to me, still doesn't recognize my resolutions.
B) When I run it (past error screen), all selectable buttons shifted to the right.


What is your resolution?
What is the SIM version?
Posted By: Sim

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/15/11 07:46 PM

v0.922d on 1920x1080(win7ult on ati4670 drivers 8.801)
Posted By: arkhangelsk

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 06:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Nice...
thumbsup




Does this picture mean we will be seeing a SA-10 sim in a few years?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 09:38 AM

v0.922d on 1920x1080(win7ult on ati4670 drivers 8.801)

Hmmm, strange.

Can you post some screen-shots about the error display and the startup main panel?
You can send it to my mail.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 09:40 AM

Does this picture mean we will be seeing a SA-10 sim in a few years?

This picture is not good enough...
nope
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 09:44 AM

Heh, I think people would love you even if you used "hand made" pictures of SA-10 panels instead of photos.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
This picture is not good enough...
nope
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 12:48 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: piston79

Please, check 24 page of the manual. It says that receiving antenas for "Podsvetka" (and for "Wide beam")for the missile and the target are P-12V and P-11V... When we are trackin' jamming target, we use only receiving antenas {and P-16, of course), right? So, I still don't understand...


Hmmm...
... than the manual is wrong.

Wide Beam
Target - P11V,P12V
Missiles - P11V,P12V


Narrow Beam
Target - P13V,P14V
Missiles - P11V,P12V

Podsvet
Target - P13V,P14V for emit, and P11V,P12V for receive
Missiles - P11V,P12V




I think you wrote the same... Or I've just missed the point... frown


Hi, still have not clear view about it... Are receiving antenas for wide beam and LORO for the target chanell the same? The manual said one thing, Hpasp - other, but wrote it like in the manual...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 01:44 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: piston79

Please, check 24 page of the manual. It says that receiving antenas for "Podsvetka" (and for "Wide beam")for the missile and the target are P-12V and P-11V... When we are trackin' jamming target, we use only receiving antenas {and P-16, of course), right? So, I still don't understand...


Hmmm...
... than the manual is wrong.

Wide Beam
Target - P11V,P12V
Missiles - P11V,P12V


Narrow Beam
Target - P13V,P14V
Missiles - P11V,P12V

Podsvet
Target - P13V,P14V for emit, and P11V,P12V for receive
Missiles - P11V,P12V




I think you wrote the same... Or I've just missed the point... frown


Hi, still have not clear view about it... Are receiving antenas for wide beam and LORO for the target chanell the same? The manual said one thing, Hpasp - other, but wrote it like in the manual...



Hi, still have not clear view about it... Are receiving antenas for wide beam and LORO for the target chanell the same?

YES!

That is the main reason for the introduction of the LORO (Podsvet) mode.

The Wide Beam (SIROKIY LUCH) mode is the same, as in the Dvina.
It uses the two wide beam antennas (P11V, P12V) to send and receive both target and missile channels.
It guides the missiles to the bore sight of the wide beam antenna system (same point where the target is).

The Narrow Beam (UZKIY LUCH) mode is using the two parabolic antenna (P13V, P14V) for emitting the 1MW microwave energy towards the target, and receiving it.
As those antennas are much more focused, with the same emitter output, you achieve 3x times microwave power density.
This results a bigger detection range. (Originally developed against the U2/SR71 "dirty bird" coating)

The big problem is that the beam emitted by the P13V/P14V antennas are too narrow for the missile tracking.
The missiles would simply slip out, and would be lost.
So the missile beacons are tracked by the wide beam (P11V/P12V) antennas.

BIG-BIG problem is the alignment of the bore sights of these two independent antenna systems.
The target is followed by the one (P13V/P14V) system, and the missiles are tracked by another one (P11V/P12V).
If these two independent antenna systems bore sights is misaligned by a fraction of a degree, the missiles would simply miss the target.

So another mode was developed...

The LORO (PODSVET) mode is the mix of the two mode discussed above.
It uses the narrow beam (P13V/P14V) antennas only to illuminate the target (send out focused microwave energy).
The reflected signal from the target, and the missile beacons are received by the wide beam (P11V/P12V) antennas.
Thus the guidance circuit is guiding on the wide beam antenna bore sight, and the target/missiles are met at the same place.

dizzy

PS: Sorry, we are very deep now into the system, and I might be confusing...

PS2: Just a joke, to lighten this topic...

... the PODSVET light is red, to remind you, that you should not illuminate own fighters with this mode (2x1MW focused microwave energy)...
... otherwise the pilot would looses his masculinity (function of his balls).
rolleyes
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 04:29 PM

Heh, I think people would love you even if you used "hand made" pictures of SA-10 panels instead of photos.

1, If you seen a hand drawn picture, than you would loose the Russian feeling of the system. (screws, scratches, and lots of metal)
When I play with the sim, I can nearly smell the typical Russian smell of the systems...
... they used a special type of grease everywhere. biggrin

2, You would loose the fun of learning the deeper technicalities of these systems, by asking non documented switches.

3, There would be more users with the complaints...
... "I read at Wiki that this system has actually double range".

I had a complaint from a player, that the P14 Tall King has (1200km) range, than it is stated in the SA-5 sim (600km).
Instead of trying to explain the Earth curvature effect on target acquisition range, I could simply point to him this switch...


thumbsup
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 04:36 PM

Dear Hpasp,

If (as you perfectly explained) the receiving antenas for "Wide beam" and "Podsvet" are the same, why when we are tracking jamming target (without any transmition from SNR), and changing the mode from "wide beam" to "podsvet", it narrows the sector on the azimuth and elevation screens...??? Is it real and what was the purpose... Those modes are for te emmited signal, it shouldn't reflects receiving (especially wen the receiving antenas for both modes are the same...)
Hope you understand my point...

Nice joke with red light wink
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 05:01 PM

Dear Hpasp,

If (as you perfectly explained) the receiving antenas for "Wide beam" and "Podsvet" are the same, why when we are tracking jamming target (without any transmition from SNR), and changing the mode from "wide beam" to "podsvet", it narrows the sector on the azimuth and elevation screens...??? Is it real and what was the purpose... Those modes are for te emmited signal, it shouldn't reflects receiving (especially wen the receiving antenas for both modes are the same...)
Hope you understand my point...

Nice joke with red light wink


You are right, it is a bug in the sim, and will be corrected.
thumbsup

You are also received the award for shooting the deepest technical bug of the SAM SIM so far...
... do not tell me, that you never served with the real one.
wave
Posted By: Vympel

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 06:10 PM

If narrow and LORO modes are using same antennas for transmiting, why can enemy RWRs detect LORO but not Narrow mode beam? I remember this from the manual, but I may be wrong as I dont have manuals at hand.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 06:27 PM

If narrow and LORO modes are using same antennas for transmiting, why can enemy RWRs detect LORO but not Narrow mode beam? I remember this from the manual, but I may be wrong as I dont have manuals at hand.

Opposite santa

During Narrow Beam mode, the pencil beams are mechanically scanned...


Using LORO, the scanning is stopped, so only the tracked target could detect your SNR, no prowling weasels...


thumbsup
Posted By: Vympel

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/16/11 06:34 PM

ohhh... Right, thanks.
Posted By: piston79

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/17/11 12:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Dear Hpasp,

If (as you perfectly explained) the receiving antenas for "Wide beam" and "Podsvet" are the same, why when we are tracking jamming target (without any transmition from SNR), and changing the mode from "wide beam" to "podsvet", it narrows the sector on the azimuth and elevation screens...??? Is it real and what was the purpose... Those modes are for te emmited signal, it shouldn't reflects receiving (especially wen the receiving antenas for both modes are the same...)
Hope you understand my point...

Nice joke with red light wink


You are right, it is a bug in the sim, and will be corrected.
thumbsup

You are also received the award for shooting the deepest technical bug of the SAM SIM so far...
... do not tell me, that you never served with the real one.
wave


I am happy been useful with my questions for the cause! biggrin

I am reading the topic from the begining, but it takes many hours, so if I ask about something already discused, please, don't be mad...

I suggested your sim to my ex comanding officer, and when he find some time to explore it, I'll write here immediately.

Here an failed launch due to malfunction of the missile 2 years ago:
http://vbox7.com/play:4b85a8dc
Posted By: Amidkor

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/17/11 12:56 PM

S-1252T/TM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Ico8fbe6g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjcO7BURKKU&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=15DXQWxjpBQ&feature=player_embedded
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6g955ISGGF4&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8mEgMl87m_4&feature=related
Posted By: MK_PL

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/17/11 10:07 PM

Good movies gentlemen, thx.

Hpasp, I have a question. In the sim it is possible to engage 'stealth' targets. It was mentioned on the forum that WarPac SAM crews practiced engaging such targets. I mean, how realistic was it? That technology was secret, right? So how closely did the target drone resemble the F-117? Was it RCS based?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 09/18/11 07:21 AM

Hpasp, I have a question. In the sim it is possible to engage 'stealth' targets. It was mentioned on the forum that W