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Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon)

Posted By: Cosmo

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/10/11 06:41 PM

Great sim, great work.

I have a question regarding the Vega. Are different aspects of a target aircraft relative to the square pair FC-Radar taken into the simulation of the pulse-doppler NCTR feature?

Thanks
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/11/11 05:16 AM

Several new questions, but for now I'll only ask one.

Do you factor the amount of time required for the rail loader/truck loader to move into loading position, and then move away from the launch area into your reload time? Or was this deemed insignificant to the operation of the Gammon and excluded?

I'm still toying with the idea of a graphic AAR, but I haven't sorted everything into enough of a coherent thought to make an example. However, I think you'll like my new idea as it doesn't involve 3D. hahaha
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/11/11 03:35 PM

Do you factor the amount of time required for the rail loader/truck loader to move into loading position, and then move away from the launch area into your reload time? Or was this deemed insignificant to the operation of the Gammon and excluded?

It is faithfully represented.
(Even time given to the K3 operator, to push the "prepare missile" switch. You can notice it, that the missiles aren't prepared in the same time.)

thumbsup
Posted By: StartbahnWest

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/11/11 07:59 PM

Hello, first thing i want to thank you Hpasp for the execellnt work, the SAM-Simulator provides the right amount of sim and fun!
The next thing, i want to ask, what was the reason programming the Volhov first and not the Dvina?

So a few words to the Vega System: Love that thing! Superb range and it has good chances of intercept a stealth target like the F-117A:
Quote:
48:33, Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-3] simulating F-117A Stealth launched

53:23, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 17km
Target azimuth: 54°
Target elevation: 54°
Target angular speed: 228m/s (0,8 Mach)
Target altitude: 14,1km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target before launch
Received signal strenght: 37dB


53:31, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 16km
Target azimuth: 51°
Target elevation: 59°
Target angular speed: 186m/s (0,6 Mach)
Target altitude: 14,1km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target before launch
Received signal strenght: 37,4dB


53:59, Missile exploded
Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-3] simulating F-117A Stealth killed by SAM. (miss distance: 37m)

54:06, Missile exploded
Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-3] simulating F-117A Stealth killed by SAM. (miss distance: 111m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 5min 29sec

I'm feeling like Homer Simpson: Klick biggrin
Posted By: Redcoalition

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/11/11 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: StartbahnWest
Hello, first thing i want to thank you Hpasp for the execellnt work, the SAM-Simulator provides the right amount of sim and fun!
The next thing, i want to ask, what was the reason programming the Volhov first and not the Dvina?


I'm feeling like Homer Simpson: Klick biggrin

I think that for him the manuals and sites of the Volhov were easier to find/look than the Dvina ones... Maybe because (afaik) Hungary operated the Volhov, but didn't the Dvina (or did it, for much less time).
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/11/11 09:53 PM

The next thing, i want to ask, what was the reason programming the Volhov first and not the Dvina?

Just remember, that Dvina is the "export" version of the Volhov.
Dvina was received by the arab countries, and Vietnam, while Volhov was used by the WarPact, and the Soviet Union.
Dvina was not deployed in Hungary when I started programming, so the first high quality photos were made of the Volhov training complex in 2005.

Than I met the first (and the best tester), who was FCO on Volhov, then Battery commander at a Neva unit.
In 2007 I was able to shot the required shots for NEVA, and the idea of a several system SAM Simulator begun.

In 2009, the first package were released (containing Volhov and Neva), and the English website were created.

In 2010, I had the possibility to take pictures of the KRUG system, allowed by the Hungarian 12. Arrabona SAM regiment.
It was released in the same year.

Before the end of 2010, I had the opportunity to shot the required pictures for the VEGA, and the Shilka sim, at the same day...
... what a day it was!!!
thumbsup

2011, the Vega released, and I had the opportunity to shot finally the Dvina.

So to wrap up, the Dvina was the last system I could spend the required 2~3 hours in it.

Just to decode:
SA-75MK Dvina, SA-2F
S-75M3 Volhov, SA-2E
S-125M Neva, SA-3B
2K11M1 KRUG-M1, SA-4B
S-200VE Vega-E, SA-5B
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/11/11 09:58 PM

So a few words to the Vega System: Love that thing! Superb range and it has good chances of intercept a stealth target like the F-117A:

Here they are discussing how to shoot the B2...
... with the S-200D Dubna system (SA-5C)

http://narod.ru/disk/2674666001/%D0%BF%D...B0%29.djvu.html

(on page 54-55)
seehearspeak
Posted By: StartbahnWest

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/12/11 12:48 PM

Okay, now i understand why you started with the more complex Volhov. Smile2
Quote:
Here they are discussing how to shoot the B2...
... with the S-200D Dubna system (SA-5C)
At 10 km altitude up to 150 km against non-jamming B2? eek
I found the table at the pages 18-19 useful, because it provides a good comparision between the different kinds of missles, that are being used.

And another two questions. Its about the searching methods. How can i opitmize the circular searching method of the Square Pair against a stealth target? And why drops the sector search the vertical elevation always to zero degrees when it starts to scan?

Edit:
My best result against a stealth target so far:
Quote:
06:37, Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-3] simulating F-117A Stealth launched

11:07, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 20km
Target azimuth: 64°
Target elevation: 43°
Target angular speed: 339m/s (1,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 14km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strenght: 35,5dB


11:41, Missile exploded
Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-3] simulating F-117A Stealth killed by SAM. (miss distance: 31m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 5min 20sec

When the F-117A jams the cm wavelenght i always score a hit, when its jamming the Tall-King radar i have big troubles to find it at all, even if i preset the distance, the vertical elevation and the doppler speed of the Square Pair, for example 35 km, ~ 25 ° vertical elevation and doppler speed around 400 m/s and start a circle search i cant find it... sigh
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/12/11 06:33 PM

At 10 km attitude up to 150 km against non-jamming B2?

Please be aware, that in real life, the Stealth planes, NEVER JAM!
thumbsup

How can i opitmize the circular searching method of the Square Pair against a stealth target?

If the target is further than 100km, switch to narrow beam.
If the target is closer than 100km, switch to wide beam.

And why drops the sector search the vertical elevation always to zero degrees when it starts to scan?
That is the maximum range.
Posted By: StartbahnWest

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/12/11 06:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
At 10 km attitude up to 150 km against non-jamming B2?

Please be aware, that in real life, the Stealth planes, NEVER JAM!
thumbsup
Hehe, smart desicion since there is chance that this vehicles are somewhere around the target area in position piggy

Quote:

If the target is further than 100km, switch to narrow beam.
If the target is closer than 100km, switch to wide beam.
I act always like the bible, i mean the manual, says. biggrin But maybe i just overlooked some factors...


Quote:

And why drops the sector search the vertical elevation always to zero degrees when it starts to scan?
That is the maximum range.

Thank you for the answer. smile
Posted By: ricnunes

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/01/12 09:54 PM

I know that I'm being stubborn regarding the SA-5 but I do strongly believe that there's something wrong with the SA-5 and this time I think it may be something related to it's flight patch (and NOT due to the fuse like I previously thought).
I have what I believe an evidence that something is inded wrong regarding the SA-5 missile flight path -> Following Lonewolf's sugestion I started to use the P-14 radar to "keep a look" at my launched missiles and when playing the "1985 - Op. Giant Reach" and firing against an incoming SR-71, I noticed this everytime I play this mission in this same situation:
1- I fired one missile at the incoming SR-71 using the "Adquire After Launch" mode.
2- The SR-71 turned on it's jammer which was expectable which will cause my previously lauched missile to loose it's target and miss which again was expectable, so NO problem here!
3- But the problem is when I fire the all other missiles using the "Home on Jam" mode -> ALL missile WILL FAIL because they simply DON'T FOLLOW the target and ALL MISSILES will follow the SAME EXACT northern "imaginary" route, like this picture clearly shows:



As you can see in picture ALL MISSILES launched in "Home on Jam" mode will follow the indicated flight path in the picture, completly ignoring the target's jammer direction at all! And with this I mean that this isn't one missile or two that for some random reason will loose it's target - I mean all missiles WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTIONS will follow THAT WIERD PATH!


I hope this feedback helps somehow.

And BTW: Hpasp what you think of this?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/02/12 06:24 AM

I know that I'm being stubborn regarding the SA-5 but I do strongly believe that there's something wrong with the SA-5 and this time I think it may be something related to it's flight patch (and NOT due to the fuse like I previously thought).
I have what I believe an evidence that something is inded wrong regarding the SA-5 missile flight path -> Following Lonewolf's sugestion I started to use the P-14 radar to "keep a look" at my launched missiles and when playing the "1985 - Op. Giant Reach" and firing against an incoming SR-71, I noticed this everytime I play this mission in this same situation:
1- I fired one missile at the incoming SR-71 using the "Adquire After Launch" mode.
2- The SR-71 turned on it's jammer which was expectable which will cause my previously lauched missile to loose it's target and miss which again was expectable, so NO problem here!
3- But the problem is when I fire the all other missiles using the "Home on Jam" mode -> ALL missile WILL FAIL because they simply DON'T FOLLOW the target and ALL MISSILES will follow the SAME EXACT northern "imaginary" route, like this picture clearly shows:


Vega is quite a complex (confusing) system, and Im happy that somebody is getting deep into it.
Here are the things, that I used to forget, and screw up an engagement.

Before missile launch...
"Z"-screen
Do you have RPC GOTOV, D ZONA indicators green?

GSN settings:
Vcr<0 - against targets less than radial speed of 100m/s (track in 3 coordinates)
V POLETE - against low flying targets, when you have RPC, but no GSN lock (track in 3 coordinates)
POISK V VIKL - against jamming target (track in 2 coordinates only)
POISK VKL - against normal target (track in 3 coordinates)

When you track a target, and it starts jamming, the Plamya computer do target path prolongation.
"C" screen, PROLONG red indication. You need to reacquire the target!
Push the PROLONG VIKL red button, and do a proper jamming target tracking in AS2.

Than launch only.

There can be hidden bugs at the Vega, as it is the least tested system compared to the Volhov, but Im happy if we can find these out.
(3DAAR will also help this)

thumbsup

Quote:
14:00 28th of March, 1985.
SR-71 Operation Giant Reach.

S-200VE Vega-E


10:23, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 295km
Target azimuth: 286°
Target elevation: 2°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 6,7dB


10:59, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 270km
Target azimuth: 286°
Target elevation: 3°
Target angular speed: 869m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


11:21, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 255km
Target azimuth: 286°
Target elevation: 3°
Target angular speed: 869m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


27:42, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 196km
Target azimuth: 285°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 842m/s (3 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


28:00, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 187km
Target azimuth: 284°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 768m/s (2,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


28:19, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 177km
Target azimuth: 282°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 668m/s (2,3 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


28:23, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu hit by SAM. (miss distance: 189m)

28:37, Missile launched from launcher-4
Target distance: 169km
Target azimuth: 279°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 551m/s (1,9 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


28:52, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 245m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 4min 3sec



Posted By: ricnunes

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/02/12 06:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Vega is quite a complex (confusing) system, and Im happy that somebody is getting deep into it.
Here are the things, that I used to forget, and screw up an engagement.

Before missile launch...
"Z"-screen
Do you have RPC GOTOV, D ZONA indicators green?

GSN settings:
Vcr<0 - against targets less than radial speed of 100m/s (track in 3 coordinates)
V POLETE - against low flying targets, when you have RPC, but no GSN lock (track in 3 coordinates)
POISK V VIKL - against jamming target (track in 2 coordinates only)
POISK VKL - against normal target (track in 3 coordinates)

When you track a target, and it starts jamming, the Plamya computer do target path prolongation.
"C" screen, PROLONG red indication. You need to reacquire the target!
Push the PROLONG VIKL red button, and do a proper jamming target tracking in AS2.

Than launch only.

There can be hidden bugs at the Vega, as it is the least tested system compared to the Volhov, but Im happy if we can find these out.
(3DAAR will also help this)

thumbsup



Well, I was not firing with "D ZONE" light ON (I was NOT waiting for it to turn ON). I noticed that when I fired with the "D ZONE" light on that the missiles seem inded to fly towards the right direction (towards the target) but in my case I only get the "D ZONE" light on when the SR-71 passes its 3 minute mark (almost at the 4 minute mark) in the plotting table and when I read your AAR and after seeing your plotting table I've seen that you hit the SR-71 just a little bit after the 3 minute mark which means that it was your second and third missiles (the first one was not fired on "Home on Jam") that hit the SR-71 which in my case (playing with current version v923.3) launching missiles with "Home on Jam" at the same distance that you launched your second and third missiles is ONLY POSSIBLE with the "D ZONE" light OFF BUT if I launch the missiles with "Home on Jam" and with the "D ZONE" light OFF the missiles will NEVER follow the target (they will follow that fligth path that I marked in my previously posted picture).

So, I want to ask: I which version was that mission of yours played? With the "official" v923.3 or are you using a non-released ("beta") version of SAM simulator?


For what's worth I've been following all the procedures mentioned in the manual when engaging "Home on Jam" targets (and any other kind of target for that matter).
Anyway, Here's one of my AARs:
Quote:

14:00 28th of March, 1985.
SR-71 Operation Giant Reach.

S-200VE Vega-E


22:56, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 305km
Target azimuth: 286°
Target elevation: 2°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 5,5dB


25:20, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 195km
Target azimuth: 285°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


25:35, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 185km
Target azimuth: 284°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


25:51, Missile launched from launcher-4
Target distance: 177km
Target azimuth: 282°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


26:07, Missile launched from launcher-5
Target distance: 170km
Target azimuth: 279°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


26:23, Missile launched from launcher-6
Target distance: 164km
Target azimuth: 276°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


26:39, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 161km
Target azimuth: 273°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 870m/s (3,1 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


Total, SNR On Air Time: 6min 25sec



I also have an another question:
I'm not sure what is the "PROLONG VIKL" button, but I'm assuming that it's this one:


Is this correct?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/02/12 06:53 PM

Well, I was not firing with "D ZONE" light ON (I was NOT waiting for it to turn ON). I noticed that when I fired with the "D ZONE" light on that the missiles seem inded to fly towards the right direction (towards the target) but in my case I only get the "D ZONE" light on when the SR-71 passes its 3 minute mark (almost at the 4 minute mark) in the plotting table and when I read your AAR and after seeing your plotting table I've seen that you hit the SR-71 just a little bit after the 3 minute mark which means that it was your second and third missiles (the first one was not fired on "Home on Jam") that hit the SR-71 which in my case (playing with current version v923.3) launching missiles with "Home on Jam" at the same distance that you launched your second and third missiles is ONLY POSSIBLE with the "D ZONE" light OFF BUT if I launch the missiles with "Home on Jam" and with the "D ZONE" light OFF the missiles will NEVER follow the target (they will follow that fligth path that I marked in my previously posted picture).

What I did:
1, Got AS4 with the RPC, using IADS.
2, launched a missile out of zone to frighten the SR71. (this missile will not track, and considered lost)
3, SR71 starts jamming
4, PROLONG VIKL (yes that is it), POMEHA VKL, AS2
5, GSN POISK V VIKL
6, launch as many missiles as possible (WW3 anyway started)


So, I want to ask: I which version was that mission of yours played? With the "official" v923.3 or are you using a non-released ("beta") version of SAM simulator?


Always with the latest one thumbsup.
Posted By: ricnunes

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/02/12 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
What I did:
1, Got AS4 with the RPC, using IADS.
2, launched a missile out of zone to frighten the SR71. (this missile will not track, and considered lost)
3, SR71 starts jamming
4, PROLONG VIKL (yes that is it), POMEHA VKL, AS2
5, GSN POISK V VIKL
6, launch as many missiles as possible (WW3 anyway started)


So, I want to ask: I which version was that mission of yours played? With the "official" v923.3 or are you using a non-released ("beta") version of SAM simulator?


Always with the latest one thumbsup.


That's exactly what I do! But what I find curious is that your impacts on the SR-71 (marked on the plotting table) basically happened in the similar spot/area when the SR-71 is when in my game my "D ZONA" indicator becomes green -> So basically when you hit the SR-71 is when I get the green light (D ZONA light) to launch missiles.
Posted By: Hpasp

S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/16/12 09:50 AM

Lets discuss S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) specific issues here...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/17/12 08:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

I have tested S-200VE against SR-71 in Tallinn scenario.

I launched six missiles, the first which achieved a lock after start was fired at distance of almost 200km and with RSSI of 19,7dB.

Click to reveal..

1967.
SR-71 Operation Tallin.

S-200VE Vega-E


00:09:47, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 237km
Target azimuth: 48°
Target elevation: 4°
Target angular speed: 908m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 14,2dB


00:10:03, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 223km
Target azimuth: 49°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 906m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 16,1dB


00:10:24, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 204km
Target azimuth: 50°
Target elevation: 5°
Target angular speed: 903m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 18,5dB


00:10:34, Missile launched from launcher-4
Target distance: 195km
Target azimuth: 50°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 901m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 19,7dB


00:10:49, Missile launched from launcher-5
Target distance: 182km
Target azimuth: 51°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 898m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 21,4dB


00:10:54, Missile launched from launcher-6
Target distance: 177km
Target azimuth: 51°
Target elevation: 7°
Target angular speed: 897m/s (3,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 24km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 22,1dB


00:12:03, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 5m)

00:12:13, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 8m)

00:12:17, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 9m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 11min 9sec]


The GSN-target received signal strength code was completely rewritten, but it still doesn't feel right, so I will still need to work on it...
... this shot is unrealistic.
biggrin
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/19/12 12:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

The GSN-target received signal strength code was completely rewritten, but it still doesn't feel right, so I will still need to work on it...
... this shot is unrealistic.
biggrin


There should be signal/noise ratio for GSN at 3:1 (about 10dB). Here some estimations about range of possible misslie launch, depending by type of the target (bomber;fighter-bomber;cruise missile), transmition mode of the RSN (MHI or FKM) in case of signal/noise ratio for GSN at about 3:1 (10 dB):


As I understand it right, the main problem for CW dopler radar (like S-200VE) is that when radial speed of the target is close to 0, GSN could lock on the main frequence transmited by the RSN (and in our case it is this "noise" signal, which we should avoid by having some +10 dB target signal strenght). Of course, as target speed is closing the 0 or below 0 m/s, the noise level increases, so, to keep our 3:1 signal/noise ratio, we should receive stronger target signal, to distinguished the target...
Posted By: xxJohnxx

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/20/12 08:58 AM

Hi milang, wave

It was on the Asuluk shooting range, and I wanted to figure out how the Vega behaves, like when to shoot, and how many missiles and so on, however as I got the hit, the simulator crashed as described.

Jonathan
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/20/12 09:41 AM

jonathan did u try from first to end? i mean did u try sa-2F and sa-2E sa-3b and sa-4B ????
if u wanna learn very pro as a virtual FCO i think u have to work from begin. thumbsup
Posted By: xxJohnxx

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/20/12 10:06 AM

Yes, I tried all of them, I have had some great times in the SA-3 and SA-2, I am also able to operate the SA-4, however I am not a fan of it. wink
I have had a lot of fun trying to get Gerry Powers in both the SA-2F and SA-2E, however I am pretty bad in scenarios like Operation Linebacker-II or El Dorado Canyon. Either the SEAD get's me with it's ARMs or I don't get a hit against any target, as I try to keep On Air Time short which messes up my shooting. biggrin
I like the SA-5 most, as it has some neat features, like the home on jam and the ability to launch as many missiles as the launcher can hold in a single salvo (sometimes very usefull against an SR-71).

However, I am slowly getting better with all the systems especially against SEAD yep
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/20/12 10:41 AM

dude... please be aware! hit one target in ashuluk , it not same as u could hit target it scenario's biggrin
u have to join in scenario's like linebreak II for upper your skill's!
if u can't hit one target in line break II with sa-2 or sa-3 ,u are still beginner in there thumbsup


Originally Posted By: xxJohnxx
Yes, I tried all of them, I have had some great times in the SA-3 and SA-2, I am also able to operate the SA-4, however I am not a fan of it. wink
I have had a lot of fun trying to get Gerry Powers in both the SA-2F and SA-2E, however I am pretty bad in scenarios like Operation Linebacker-II or El Dorado Canyon. Either the SEAD get's me with it's ARMs or I don't get a hit against any target, as I try to keep On Air Time short which messes up my shooting. biggrin
I like the SA-5 most, as it has some neat features, like the home on jam and the ability to launch as many missiles as the launcher can hold in a single salvo (sometimes very usefull against an SR-71).

However, I am slowly getting better with all the systems especially against SEAD yep
Posted By: Mdore

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/23/12 09:01 AM

Hpasp, could you possibly put the SA-5 in as a historically-inaccurate option for the Vietnam and Egyptian missions? I'd like to see how it would perform.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/23/12 09:24 AM

It would be great, I vote also for this. There are only a few scenarios for my most favorite system.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/23/12 12:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Mdore
Hpasp, could you possibly put the SA-5 in as a historically-inaccurate option for the Vietnam and Egyptian missions? I'd like to see how it would perform.


I will think it over...
... usually USAF is acting specifically against SAM types in the theater of action.

If we put some new systems in a scenario, than in reality than USAF would fly differently...

... but I will give it a thought.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/23/12 12:37 PM

Yes, but it would be a non-historical scenario thumbsup
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 09/28/12 10:05 AM

http://rutube.ru/tracks/4833632.html

http://rutube.ru/tracks/4833653.html
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 10/04/12 07:41 AM

guyss... 1 question... as you see 2 s-200 missile launch at one moment in this piicture...

so why we cant in sam simuator launching 2 missile at 1 moment ? dizzy

Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 10/04/12 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: milang
guyss... 1 question... as you see 2 s-200 missile launch at one moment in this piicture...
so why we cant in sam simuator launching 2 missile at 1 moment ? dizzy


Probably because there are two batteries on this photo.....
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 10/04/12 08:42 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: milang
guyss... 1 question... as you see 2 s-200 missile launch at one moment in this piicture...
so why we cant in sam simuator launching 2 missile at 1 moment ? dizzy


Probably because there are two batteries on this photo.....


In Ashuluk to reduce the live firing practice costs, it was a common practice that two batteries launched against the same drone, one with inert warhead.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 11/04/12 04:22 PM

Originally Posted By: oban21
Hello Everybody! wave Im "new" to this form (vell relatyvly speaking,as a registered member at lest) and just wants to say hello to evrybody who shares admiration to and enjoymanet in this beautifull little sim of our Hungarian friend (and my "neibhor", Im from Serbia) Hpasp! wave2 GREAT WORK!!!thumbsup I have allready done some "achivements" biggrin by counqering this wonderfull, but little bit strange and hard-to-learn russian technique, in missions like "Linenbeaker II" by downing both SR-71's with dvina (boy that was hard!!!), which im going to post here if somebody's like to see it! Now, I heave encountered a real problem whit this Sim,also!It's about my favorith SA-5 Gammon! I just can't shoot a single missile in Hungarian scenario beacouse the firing buttons are complitly DEAD in it! I understand that it's a training mission whit no real rockets meant to be launch, as I've allredy play it whit "dvina`s" and "volkhov`s"! And it`s preatty annoying, mad I must say, beacouse there wasn`t a word about procedure for that mission in manual for sa-5! Neither was there anything that I could find about it on this forum. sigh So if anybody could help...I will appreciate it,greatly!;) See you guys and... sorry for bad English!:(


This is quite a complex question to be answered...

... while the Dvina/Volhov/Neva systems were compromised to the west relatively early, the Vega was quite an enigma for the west during the Cold War.

Consequently it was forbidden for the Vega crew to illuminate any civilian plane, as it could have been possibly equipped with HF recording equipment by the CIA.
(The first Volhov signals was recorded by the CIA above Berlin, aboard a civilian passenger plane...)

For the Vega crew, a different practice method was developed, called K7.
(you can find the relevant switch in the sim easily)

In K7 mode, the RPC would emit low powered signals towards a close-by special K7 tower, that will simulate the targets Doppler effect by emitting the signal back towards the RPC & the launchers.



So practice was like; switching the RPC into K7 mode, rotate it exactly towards the K7 tower, after detecting the simulated incoming plane, you could practice electronic launches against it.

(Currently this mode is not simulated, but it is one of the future candidates...)
Posted By: montieris

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 11/04/12 08:58 PM

Interesting story about SIGINT between WARPAC and NATO. thumbsup

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
K7 tower,

This mode reminds me old article about "radar spoofer".
http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/mil/wall/Radar_Speed_Controller.pdf
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 11/14/12 04:31 PM

Originally Posted By: milang
dear hpasp... before publish new version on samsim... could u create one manual ashuluk site for sa-5 gammon?

all of systems in sam sim had a ideal position in ashuluk target but sa-5 has no enough space for fighting and all of ashuluk target launching from under 150KM frown but vega's kill zone is 200


The full range capability of the Vega system was not practiced in Ashuluk.
Hungarians had only one firing practice with the Vega, against two targets:
LA-17K D=75km H=8km
RM-207 D=67km H=16km
Posted By: wasserfall

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 11/20/12 09:14 PM

Why can't we choose non-historical scenarios?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 11/21/12 04:55 PM

Originally Posted By: wasserfall
Why can't we choose non-historical scenarios?


Your enemies were flying these missions in the knowledge, that the Vega system is not in the theater.
If Vega would have been there, they would fly the missions differently...
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 12/22/12 12:26 PM

Is it normal, when target's doppler speed goes down (when it was destroyed, per example), the signal strenght indicator not to change it's indications? It's indications changed only by range to the target (incoming - up; receiding - down)?

May we have a bit more explanation about that???
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 12/22/12 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Is it normal, when target's doppler speed goes down (when it was destroyed, per example), the signal strenght indicator not to change it's indications? It's indications changed only by range to the target (incoming - up; receiding - down)?

May we have a bit more explanation about that???


Target RCS deterioration after a SAM hit is not simulated.
Posted By: CooLDoG

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 12/28/12 05:08 PM

I know I ave said this 1000 times. But I'm going to learn this bad boy. I have got all of the others more or less down pat, I'm a little out of practice with the KRUG, but it wou;d take just a few minutes to re-learn.

Expect either a bunch of newbie questions or success reports!

Also, I'm not too much a fan of letting you shoot in missions like Linebacker with the Sa-5b, because it wouldn't be any fun!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 12/28/12 07:12 PM

Originally Posted By: CooLDoG
I know I ave said this 1000 times. But I'm going to learn this bad boy. I have got all of the others more or less down pat, I'm a little out of practice with the KRUG, but it wou;d take just a few minutes to re-learn.

Expect either a bunch of newbie questions or success reports!

Also, I'm not too much a fan of letting you shoot in missions like Linebacker with the Sa-5b, because it wouldn't be any fun!


Welcome to the Big Stick!




Contrary to other Soviet made SAM systems (SA-2/3/6), the US NAVY/HABU community had BIG respect towards the SA-5B Gammon system, during Operation El-Dorado Canyon. The jamming EA-6B's had to fly an ineffectively low racetrack, as nobody in CIA that time had a clue if the Benghazi SA-5B would be operational during the EDC raid...
thumbsup

Just remember to the Commander of the Soviet Union Air Defense, when he demonstrated to the engineers, what kind of SAM system they need to develop...



biggrin

PS: If you were living at the Eastern side of the Iron Curtain, than you will recognize, that this request should not be taken as a joke by the engineers...

... also this is the last BIG STICK before the emerging of the S-300 family, so if you learn to be proficient using it, than this digital panel should not surprise you.


Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 01/30/13 12:44 PM

Not sure whether it is a bug or not, but in any case it is suspicious.

I tried Giant reach scenario again, fired one missile against SR-71 so it started to jam.
Then switched GSN mode to POISK V VYKL. and fired remaining five missiles (5N62 was not turned off).
Roughly at the moment when SR-71 flew tangential path, so its Vr decreased near to zero, all five missiles even they were guided to the jamming source and not searched for a doppler signal, were lost. See attached 3DAAR.
Of course I had AS-2 lock and AS-RPC (target coordinater I got from IADS and jamming noise was visible on both speed/distance and spectrum indicators).

I am not sure whether low Vr has something to do with losing of missiles, but I do not know why they were lost.

3DAAR showing the problem

Click to reveal..
14:00 28th of March, 1985.
SR-71 Operation Giant Reach.

S-200VE Vega-E


+++++++++++++++++
00:07:04, SNR ON AIR


00:08:01, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 229km
Target azimuth: 321°
Target elevation: 4°
Target angular speed: 338m/s (1,2 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 15,3dB


00:09:17, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 223km
Target azimuth: 304°
Target elevation: 4°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:09:32, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 226km
Target azimuth: 301°
Target elevation: 4°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:09:37, Missile launched from launcher-4
Target distance: 227km
Target azimuth: 300°
Target elevation: 4°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:09:42, Missile launched from launcher-5
Target distance: 228km
Target azimuth: 299°
Target elevation: 4°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:09:50, Missile launched from launcher-6
Target distance: 230km
Target azimuth: 297°
Target elevation: 4°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:16:31, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 161km
Target azimuth: 219°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:16:37, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 157km
Target azimuth: 218°
Target elevation: 6°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:16:51, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 146km
Target azimuth: 216°
Target elevation: 7°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:17:04, Missile launched from launcher-4
Target distance: 136km
Target azimuth: 213°
Target elevation: 7°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:17:17, Missile launched from launcher-5
Target distance: 127km
Target azimuth: 210°
Target elevation: 8°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:17:22, Missile launched from launcher-6
Target distance: 123km
Target azimuth: 209°
Target elevation: 8°
Target angular speed: 196m/s (0,7 Mach)
Target altitude: 20km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Home on Jam
Received signal strength: 45dB


00:17:52, Missile exploded
SR-71 Habu killed by SAM. (miss distance: 65m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 12min 32sec

Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 01/30/13 10:05 PM

Note zone III...

Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 01/30/13 10:21 PM

Yes, SR-71 flew at 20km height, so at the moment of launch, target was at the end of zone 3. I do not talk about probability of hit - the missiles were lost from almost very beginning, they were guided to a jamming signal but they went completely off the correct route.

It's a pity I haven't observed KRO signals, will try it again. And I noticed on the second page of this thread that I am not only one who faced this problem.
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/01/13 09:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
And I noticed on the second page of this thread that I am not only one who faced this problem.


No, it was a bug (all fly nord)...

Check this out, guys:

Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/02/13 08:49 AM

Yes, I know, but look at my 3DAAR, my missiles went more south than to the target.

Anyways, GREAT detailed video of launches thumbsup There are also Krug missiles launched at the end (behind Volchov SNR-75).
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/10/13 11:42 AM

Hpasp, I have a question about the leading in epsilon and beta of S-200, how values are determinated and is it fully simulate into the SIM?
Also, how I can do a screenshots from youtube?
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/20/13 07:36 AM

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/22/13 01:28 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Hpasp, I have a question about the leading in epsilon and beta of S-200, how values are determinated and is it fully simulate into the SIM?
Also, how I can do a screenshots from youtube?


In Epsilon, it is simulated with the program selection logic.

The Beta limitation of the Vega system, is also simulated:
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/22/13 07:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


In Epsilon, it is simulated with the program selection logic.
The Beta limitation of the Vega system, is also simulated:



Do you have it in degrees?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/24/13 12:24 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


In Epsilon, it is simulated with the program selection logic.
The Beta limitation of the Vega system, is also simulated:



Do you have it in degrees?


Limited to a maximum of 15degree in azimuth.
It was planned to be simulated, but I added it into the code only now.

In elevation, the missile is launched at a fix 48 degree.
If the target is further than 80km, than the combined guidance method program is activated, keeping 35 degree above the target till 30sec after launch. After that the proportional guidance method kicks in.
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/11/13 03:12 PM

new vid ... IRAN latest live firing exercise "sa-5"
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/11/13 04:01 PM

What was the target?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/11/13 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: farokh
new vid ... IRAN latest live firing exercise "sa-5"
Click to reveal..


Nice video, especially the internal shots...




Firing missile No6.

Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/11/13 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Nice video, especially the internal shots...




Firing missile No6.



nice screenshots hpasp thumbsup

also u can watch this vid and extract 2 new screenshots from internal


Originally Posted By: piston79
What was the target?


poor and cheap drone... we call'd it "KARAR"
Posted By: Mdore

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/12/13 04:12 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
What was the target?


If it's locked on in this photo



Then we can tell the target has no jet engine... as long as Hpasp has made SAM Simulator accurate. yep
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/12/13 08:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Mdore
Originally Posted By: piston79
What was the target?


If it's locked on in this photo



Then we can tell the target has no jet engine... as long as Hpasp has made SAM Simulator accurate. yep


yes i guess ... cause range officer in first vid said ... target speed : 130 m/s
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/12/13 08:39 AM

And notice their O-14 screen is blank and lights around launch buttons are neither lit nor blinking.
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/12/13 09:00 AM

Quote:
And notice their O-14 screen is blank and lights around launch buttons are neither lit nor blinking


Only one missile prepared, P-14 also not needed as target is pretty close (like in Tu-154M case)

Quote:
yes i guess ... cause range officer in first vid said ... target speed : 130 m/s


Why don't make subtitles for the "in-cabin" conversation?
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/12/13 09:21 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79


Why don't make subtitles for the "in-cabin" conversation?

because they do not create this vid for international media sigh

any way ... in first vid , fire control officer say the target info before the launch " 00:15 "

alt : 27000 ft
azimuth : 105
range : 130

Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/12/13 10:46 AM



Why don't YOU make subtitles for the "in-cabin" conversation?

Quote:
range : 130


Kilometers?
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/12/13 11:19 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79


Why don't YOU make subtitles for the "in-cabin" conversation?

Quote:
range : 130


Kilometers?


he dont said knot or km ... just said = range 130

about sub ... i try it but all of subtutleing software i donwloaded are fake ! frown
do u have any of them with 100% working ?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/12/13 08:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
And notice their O-14 screen is blank and lights around launch buttons are neither lit nor blinking.


Im really happy, that after you learned and played SAMSIM, you could understand what Iranian operators do by watching just few internal screen-shots.



"Realistic to the Switch"
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/13/13 06:31 PM

nice...
biggrin
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/13/13 08:51 PM

please some one show me on marked screenshots that how we can fire sa-5 with "flashing index car" tactic... please
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/14/13 07:49 AM

Originally Posted By: farokh
please some one show me on marked screenshots that how we can fire sa-5 with "flashing index car" tactic... please


Check this topic, please:
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3207415/Re_SR_71_jamming_in_Operation_#Post3207415

As the target could go out of 5 degrees GSN tracking area,this tactic is not recommended.....
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/14/13 08:01 AM

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/14/13 09:17 AM

Thank you guys for these great videos!

During the Cold War, it was unimaginable to make video, inside of these fire control cabins...
... now we can see and understand what they are doing.
biggrin
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/14/13 01:22 PM

It is a great video, nicely shows operation of Vega, OS-10 connection and disconnection to/from missile, ignition of the second stage (orange cloud), separation of the first stage engines.... It can be seen when the operator switches 5N62 radar on with his right hand on the upper panel and so on.

Such videos are great, thanks for it!
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/15/13 07:01 PM

Next to "Frequency modulation" switch is a clickable button - "UPR Ro"... It was prepared for work, but why not included?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/16/13 06:08 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Next to "Frequency modulation" switch is a clickable button - "UPR Ro"... It was prepared for work, but why not included?


There are several switches on the Vega, that were planned to be work in the future, and there are reasons that they were left out for now.
Some of these switches are used against...
- different types of jamming, not simulated.
- discriminating between different planes on the same beam
- detecting incoming HARM
... when the Vega was released, it could be fired only in Ashuluk, there were no use of these functions.
(Operation Prairie Fire was released more than a year later only.)

Still I feel, that Vega has not enough Historic missions (as in reality) & jamming methods in the SIM, so there is no point of recreating these advanced functions for now.
(The noise jamming currently we have, is a type that nobody in real life would ever try against the Vega.)

Adding 3 more historical scenarios...
- Baltic
- Black Sea
- Vladivostok
... expanding Ashuluk with more complex Strelba scenarios, and ultimately releasing a mission editor, where anybody could create, save and share scenarios is the path for the future I can see ahead.

What are your opinions?
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/16/13 06:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

... expanding Ashuluk with more complex Strelba scenarios, and ultimately releasing a mission editor, where anybody could create, save and share scenarios is the path for the future I can see ahead.

What are your opinions?


i think around one year ago... i told u hpasp about this biggrin

yeahh .... it can be a good hobby for samsim user!
shareing the personal scenarios with personal info is a real good idea thumbsup
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/16/13 02:29 PM

I am for advanced functionality of Vega! Maybe different jamming methods can be ommited in the beginning, but HARM detection and discriminating group targets would be nice.
Posted By: Mdore

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/16/13 05:06 PM

More missions would be nice.

More advanced functions and reasons to use them, like new jamming, would be nicer!
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/27/13 08:29 AM

"Other" side look:




"Our" side look:

Quote:
March 24, 13:45 - couple F-14 "Tomcat" from the squadron "Fighting Diamondbacks" cross so called "line of death." The pair flew 4.5 km altitude with almost zero parameter to the position of the ADS. Discovered at (D = 160 km)at 13.50-a the pair of F-14's was fired by a missile from each channel with 8 seconds interval (L-115 km height -4.5 km). 30 seconds later, the F-14 lowered to 2.5 km. 95 seconds after the start, the two missile met the target (D -100 km). Analysis of data from the cabin recorder shows that from the moment of the discovering of the target till the moment of the launches of the missiles, Libyan crew did not eliminate the uncertainty by distance (using data from the CU or the mode for measuring the distance of the complex itself).







Aftermath:




--------

Some "first look" impressions:

As the range of the actual engagement was at 120-100 km, program II of the missile flight was loaded

Russian source claims that there where seen signs of detonations on scopes in both shootings. Here US source stated that missiles where "long-range, high-altitude flight before crashing into the sea"...
- as we know, no SAM missile(except earliest mods, not simulated in SAM Sim) is intended to finish it's flight on the ground. So they shouldn't finished their flight in such way UNLESS they where confused by the mirror reflection from the surface:




as there's no such jammer where stationed behind the pair of "Tomcat's" - this is not the case. If the jammer was of the F-14 itself, the missiles would not overflown it like described above...

So, such flight profile is possible only if GSN losses the target (which could be a result of non using the FKM/Nonius from Libian crew), but it should finished with a self destruction, not scuba diving... Another possible option is that in this particular case, missiles locked the signal from the "Hawkeye", or RPN lost the track after U-turn of F-14's... It is strange that in this US book, nor in the russian source any data for U-turn prior to the detection of launches has commenced (only diving to the ground) Also, russian source claims that the signs of hitting the targets where observed on radars from RTV and ZRK itself...

(...to be continued, probably...) neaner


Posted By: Mdore

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/27/13 09:04 AM

Those photos are from the Libyan SA-5 radar?! WOW!

This forum constantly amazes me with its technical depth and detail and with the amount of detailed historic information. WOW WOW WOW!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/27/13 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79

Some "first look" impressions:

As the range of the actual engagement was at 120-100 km, program II of the missile flight was loaded

Russian source claims that there where seen signs of detonations on scopes in both shootings. Here US source stated that missiles where "long-range, high-altitude flight before crashing into the sea"...
- as we know, no SAM missile(except earliest mods, not simulated in SAM Sim) is intended to finish it's flight on the ground. So they shouldn't finished their flight in such way UNLESS they where confused by the mirror reflection from the surface:

(...to be continued, probably...) neaner


Great thread!
Please continue.


Just adding some more technical depth.
cowboy

The missile safety (PIM) has 5 safety level.
(I think, it was described earlier...)

We will discuss the 5th here in detail, as it might be important (and missing from the sim sigh ) to better understand what the Libyan operators were seen.

BV - close guidance

If the GSN is tracking the target, there is no KRO signal is visible.
When the missile approaches the target, eventually (because it arrives beside of the target) the GSN will loose it.
(target angle from the GSN >3.5 degree/sec)
At this time, the semi-active (receive only), highly directional radio proxy fuse will be switched on, and the KRO signal is active for a short time. (Not simulated in the SAMSIM) nope
The fuse receives the RPC signal reflected from the target, and detonation.

So the Vega crew assessing a shooting, should look for...
- receiving momentarily KRO signal.
- speed/altitude change of the target after the target negative spike, merged with the missile-target impact point positive spike.

... and what happens, if the V-880E flies at the dense atmosphere, with Mach6?
(clearly outside of its designed engagement zone)

First the nose cone will burn, the GSN will loose target, momentarily KRO signal, missile burned and splashed.
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/27/13 12:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


... and what happens, if the V-880E flies at the dense atmosphere, with Mach6?

First the nose cone will burn, the GSN will loose target, momentarily KRO signal, missile burned and splashed.


Seems legit, but still we are comparing both point's of view (of course if anybody could suggested us some more sound US sources it would be great). At this book missiles where "long-range, high-altitude flight before crashing into the sea" for this first engagement. Also, according russian's sources the missile-target "rendezvous" was observed not only on S-200 scopes, but also on some target acquisition radars and height-finders.... yep Of course, this soviet's analysis could be just to calm down USSR high command for the low performance of the VEGA, but it is more logical in it's descriptions of the engagements, than the US book. Of course everybody could judge for itself...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/27/13 01:05 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
... yep Of course, this soviet's analysis could be just to calm down USSR high command for the low performance of the VEGA, but it is more logical in it's descriptions of the engagements, than the US book. Of course everybody could judge for itself...


The targets were clearly outside of the Vega kill zone.
The system was performing as advertised.
biggrin

Contrary to the US NAVY pilots, politicians were simply not aware of its limitations...
... against low altitude target, max range: 38km
grunt


Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/27/13 06:09 PM

"Other" side look:

[Linked Image]

"Our" side look:

Quote
March 24, 18:42 - 1 zrdn C-200 detects target at a distance of 120 km and a height of 3 km. At 18:44 because of lack of connection with HQ, the commander of the Division decided to shoot the target (D = 100 km, H = 3 km). 25-30 seconds after the start, the target dived to a height of 1.5 km. Meeting of the missile and target it at a distance 85 km and height of 1.5 km.

Analysis of the two firing allows the following conclusions:

- The opponent has information on Technical and Tactical Data(TTD) of the complex and with the help of E-2C and the Cruisers "AEGIS" inform pilots of the missile launches.
- The crew didn't follow the rules of shooting, not considering the possibility that enemy could use maneuvers, which resulted in that the meeting of the missile and the target is realized in the low kill probability area; shootings carried out by not enough missiles, according to the shooting rules...
- Indicators of the RPN (radar illumination of the target), and radar reconnaissance radar RTV observed typical signs of destructing of the targets, held later simulations give reason to believe that they have struck at least 2 aircraft.


----------------------

"Other" side look:
[Linked Image]



"Our" side look:

Quote
March 24, 20:25 - First and second zrdn tracked group order (D= 150-180 km), azimuth 0 to 20 degrees. Aviation flights are accompanied by active noise jamming medium and low intensity of P-14, P-18, P-35 (on the radar "Oborona-14" and PRV-17 height finder interference does not occur). At 20:50 the noise jamming stops, and on ranges 60 and 80 km 2 targets were observed. The commander of the task group divisions ordered to the 2 zrdn to begin work on the nearest target (1 zrdn continues to monitor the group order (D = 160 km)). In result 2 zrdn stops transmission and began to work out target designation for the second target , at which point the plane, located 60 km from the group divisions fired 2 missiles "Harm". First missile "Harm" explodes a distance of 8 meters and a height of 9 meters from the base of the K-1 cabin, the second flies over the position and destroyed from impact into the ground at a distance of ~ 10 km (in other data ~ 2 km):


... After the explosion of the "HARM"'s warhead, the missiles body continued to fly straight and as it is clearly visible on the pictures and Hpasp's scheme, it's wings made 2 cuts on the upper corner of the receiving antenna... rolleyes

No one was injured or hurt, and the RPN was repaired by changing the antenna with a spare one from non-installed site in Bengazy. The K-1 cabin was penetrated from only two shrapnels without any damage inside....
Posted By: CAG Hotshot

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 05/22/13 03:41 AM

Question on realism from the early pages in this thread...

How can you be killing an SR-71 at all when none were lost to the sams during its career?
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 05/22/13 10:15 AM

Originally Posted By: CAG Hotshot

How can you be killing an SR-71 at all when none were lost to the sams during its career?


As SR-71 never dare to face "Gammon", how it could be lost?....

Quote:
Three SR71 missions were tracked/fired on during 1967/68 and one was hit by fragments from a detonation in the rear quarter. This damage caused a change in employment of these aircraft. That a 'near-miss' was recorded from 3 engagements suggests that Dvina can track and hit the SR71, but the hit probability and window of opportunity is very small due to the relative performance of the missile, the later Volhov has several improvements in missile technology and guidance/tracking modes that improve the chance.


See, it was almost killed even with the ancient "Dvina"....

Dvina near miss
Posted By: darkarrow

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 05/22/13 05:32 PM

Regarding SA-5 it is really interesting, how both sides think they killed each other - while in reality nobody was hurt thumbsup
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 06/10/13 09:53 PM

Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/06/13 07:31 AM

guys what different between Acquire target before launch and Acquire target during launch
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/06/13 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: farokh
guys what different between Acquire target before launch and Acquire target during launch


From the manual:

Quote:
Special Shooting Circumstances
Target Angular Velocity is less than 100m/s, or Receding Target
The missile’s GSN (semi active seeker head) cannot track target if the target's speed is below 100m/s, while the missile is stationery, so it should acquire after launch
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/06/13 08:14 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: farokh
guys what different between Acquire target before launch and Acquire target during launch


From the manual:

Quote:
Special Shooting Circumstances
Target Angular Velocity is less than 100m/s, or Receding Target
The missile’s GSN (semi active seeker head) cannot track target if the target's speed is below 100m/s, while the missile is stationery, so it should acquire after launch
'

AHHH piston ! in manuak do note wrote about Acquire target during launch
hpasp wrote about just v<0 mode ! this different switch and Acquire target during launch is another one !
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/06/13 08:20 AM

Originally Posted By: farokh
this different switch and Acquire target during launch is another one !


Can you post a picture of this switch?
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/06/13 08:36 AM

num 1.Acquire target before launch

num 2.Acquire target during launch

Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/06/13 08:53 AM

I see:

Quote:
V POLETE - against low flying targets, when you have RPC, but no GSN lock (track in 3 coordinates)


Quote:
There are two V polete modes. one is plain old V polete, where the missile locks on at 25 db, and V polete ang. velocity <0m/s, used for receding targets. Because their signal strength is much weaker, this modes sets the missile to lock on at 34db. In short, if you had the switch on "V polete" second from the right, yes, that should have happened.


Quote:
Checked - on the third second when "V POLETE", on the sixth second when "V<0"


Hpasp's explanation

Hope it is enough...
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/06/13 03:48 PM

we are Demanding to add sa-5 gammon to non- historical scenario


Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/06/13 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: farokh
we are Demanding to add sa-5 gammon to non- historical scenario


Not "WE", but "YOU"...
You're not my representative, think nobody else authorized you too... banghead
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/06/13 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79

Not "WE", but "YOU"...


do not add yourself to us ! you is you ! not us blahblahblah
Posted By: Mdore

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/13/13 09:59 AM

A Czech museum receives some S-200 missiles

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/p/491038
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/13/13 05:11 PM

Thanks for the link!
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/17/13 03:46 PM

why my first missile flying at low alt but twice missile flying at high alt ?
ps: i used flashing index car method !

Posted By: Mdore

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/17/13 06:09 PM

I think the S-200 uses two different flight paths, depending on the range to target. If you attacked the target just as it crossed the line, some missiles would use the high path, and some the low path.

Just a guess!
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/17/13 06:14 PM

flashing car? switching RPC off and on? maybe the second one did not see the target while RPC was off, so continued to climb....
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/17/13 06:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
flashing car? switching RPC off and on?


I am pretty sure that no one in the real world would use such a "tactic" with S-200, as it rather help to lose your missile, than to avoid a HARM....
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/18/13 06:22 AM

Yes I know but there is no else explanation I can imagine when someone says flashing car.
Posted By: farokh

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/18/13 07:52 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
flashing car? switching RPC off and on?


I am pretty sure that no one in the real world would use such a "tactic" with S-200, as it rather help to lose your missile, than to avoid a HARM....

allien@
when i launch the missiles ! i turn off my RPC and going to tracking range room for broking lock
then i use one switch to see missile ballestic path in air ! when my missiles passed 30km in ballestic situations !
i pusk the FKM button ! .. and them missile going to target ! that it !

piston79@
you know it from how ? you meant was that samsim is unrealistic ?
Posted By: Vympel

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/18/13 11:59 AM

@farokh

I think what piston meant is that that method is very tricky and unreliable with semi-active missiles. With command guided missiles even if SNR is not transmitting, you have guidance signals emitted. With SA missiles when SNR is not transmiting/GSN not receiving your missiles are basically ballistic missiles, and have a high chance not to reacquire the target once you turn your SNR on.

Not to flame, but...
F-16 over Bosnia in 95. was shot down by Kub using a technique similar to this. wink
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/18/13 12:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Vympel
@farokh

I think what piston meant is that that method is very tricky and unreliable with semi-active missiles. With command guided missiles even if SNR is not transmitting, you have guidance signals emitted. With SA missiles when SNR is not transmiting/GSN not receiving your missiles are basically ballistic missiles, and have a high chance not to reacquire the target once you turn your SNR on.

Not to flame, but...
F-16 over Bosnia in 95. was shot down by Kub using a technique similar to this. wink


The main advancement of the S-200V VEGA. V-860PV (5V21V) MISSILE against the earlier version was that it doesn't required CW signal continuously.
If CW signal dropped for a short time, it continued flying and looked for the RPC signal to be switched back again...
... and the KUB has more nastier trick also.
biggrin
Posted By: Mdore

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/18/13 01:08 PM

Can you say what "nastier trick" the KUB has? Or is it Hungarian military secret still?
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/18/13 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
The main advancement of the S-200V VEGA. V-860PV (5V21V) MISSILE against the earlier version was that it doesn't required CW signal continuously.
If CW signal dropped for a short time, it continued flying and looked for the RPC signal to be switched back again...
... and the KUB has more nastier trick also.
biggrin

Yes, you have to carefully watch KRO signals and don't missile let fly without CW signal for too long (more than 30 or 60s?) But for how long you have to switch RPC back on again? Is this practice mentioned somewhere in the official manual?

What is the trick of KUB?
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/24/13 08:06 PM



Posted By: JWNoctis

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/17/13 03:15 AM

From Shilka's thread:
Originally Posted By: piston79
OFF TOP:

How BMS RWR reacts on SA-5? (you could answer on PM, as it is not relevant to this topic)...


BMS's modeling of SA-5 is not the most accurate, just like all Falcon 4.0 mods I know of. The search radar and the fire control radar was abstracted into a single P-35 set, and apparently the missile was command guided with terminal semi-active radar homing...That meant launch warning.

That's still better than the CLoS+TARH in most Harpoon 3 distributions, however. FAS was apparently -rather- reliable, western professional source and all.
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 10/25/13 10:11 AM

Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 01/09/14 06:30 PM

K-9 cabinet, from right to left - 1.Operator for distribution of targets in RPC beam; 2. Operator of target distribution (between zrdn-s?); 3. Commander of the zrdn's group:





Left: Commander of the group:
On the glass of P-14's VIKO could be drawn some additional info, which helps the commander during engagement (here, per example, the border and the zone of responsibility is shown; 1 and 2 - strobs of RPC-1 channel and RPC-2 channel.

Down-left a rotating scale was used for quick determination of killing possibility - here the killing zone against cruise-missiles(KR), fighter-bombers(IB) and strategic bombers(SB) on high and medium (dotted line) altitudes.

Upper-right: 2. Operator of target distribution (between zrdn-s?) - After every channel starts tracking the target in AS, P (parameter) and T (time in killing zone) are calculate by the CVM (central computing machine). The data (Parameter and/or Time) is used by the Commander to make a decision for which target been attacked first.

a) screens before calculation
b) screens after calculation



Operator for distribution of targets in RPC beam:
After CU in "Leader1-Follower2", RPC of both channels (zrdn-s) is following one and the same target (upper part of the picture). After target distribution every channel (RPC) is tracking his own target.(note the left orange screen (target distinction indicator).



K-2B cabinet:

Left column indicators:

1. Target is in process of acquisition, MHI, Velocity tracking is on
2. AS-3, MHI, Velocity tracking is on
3. Target is in process of acquisition, MHI, Velocity tracking is off
4. AS-3, MHI, Velocity tracking is off
5. FKM, AS-4
6. Active, narrow beam noise jamming low intensity (self defense jamming)
7. Active, wide beam noise jamming, medium intensity

Right column indicators:

1. Group of targets, MHI, Velocity tracking is on, AS-3
2. Group of targets, MHI, Velocity tracking is off, AS-3
3. Tracking one of the tarhets, FKM, AS-4
5. Changing the tracking from target 1 to target 2in progress, RU (manual tracking) mode
6. Tracking target 2 in RU mode.
7. In case of Velocity Deception Jamming (Velocity Gate Pull Off) the tracking system might "take the bait" and start tracking the jamming signal. Activated modes - RU, Wide Velocity tracking mode, Auto-retracking on Velocity (KR-266V down left)
8. When certain level of velocity tracking deviation is achieved, the automating tracking strobe(cursor) is switching back to manual tracking (RU) strobe (cursor).




Next two should be familiar to the all dedicated SA-5 fans... wink :






Source: Source
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 01/10/14 08:09 AM

GREAT!!!! THANKS!!!!
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 01/10/14 09:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
GREAT!!!! THANKS!!!!


Sorry, but my English is not good enough, but hope it was clear enough to understand...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 01/10/14 10:01 AM

I have some remnants of my russian, so with help of a translator for some words I think I would be able to read it.
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 01/10/14 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
I have some remnants of my russian, so with help of a translator for some words I think I would be able to read it.


Damn! My english appears to be really bad...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 01/10/14 11:28 AM

No, your english is very good yep

My idea is to read the complete text, now when I know basic ideas from your description I will be able to understand it better yep And also I have found the russian forum where you also found it so I want to read something from there also.
By the way on that forum there is user named halmiso, he is a Slovak SAM veteran and he is also active in czech PVO forum.

I learned russian when I was 11 years old (damn, that's 24 years ago sigh) for only one year (then the political situation changed and the mandatory russian language was removed from schools unfortunately - I wanted to learn both russian and english). But I still remember your "alphabet" (azbuka in czech and probably also in russian) and I remember some words and so I can read but understanding is worse. It is essential in playing with SAM simulator yep
Posted By: Billsnavycareer

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/13/14 06:48 PM

guys

I was in a discussion with someone about the Pk ratio of V-880E against Blackbird. Do u know from which manual I could find the G limit of the missile at its terminal? BTW,I know where to find the engagement zone of the system, but the terminal speed and its load factor available cannot be find from this. May u guys have some ideas.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/14/14 05:22 AM

For the V-880VE missile:

n=6g (H=0m)
n=10g (H=20km)
n=2.5g (H=35km)

It is quite high for a missile of his generation...
... but it had several tricks to achieve it.
(mainly it consumed all fuel on board before terminal phase, or could expel it)
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/14/14 06:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
For the V-880VE missile:

n=6g (H=0m)
n=10g (H=20km)
n=2.5g (H=35km)



Blackbird is a dead meat! wink

Let us see this discussion - it will be interesting reading...
Posted By: Billsnavycareer

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/16/14 01:01 AM

Thanks, Hpasp

I know nothing about Russian. This causes me a lot of problems when reading the original manual. The only thing I can understand is the diagrams and graphs banghead
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/16/14 11:14 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
For the V-880VE missile:

n=6g (H=0m)
n=10g (H=20km)
n=2.5g (H=35km)



Blackbird is a dead meat! wink

Let us see this discussion - it will be interesting reading...


I found it in a Hungarian manual.
(explanatory notes for the Firing Manual)
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/30/14 07:14 AM

In this link I have found some interesting information regarding combat usage of S-200. Does anyone know some details?


The first combat use of the S-200 was made in 1982 by Syria. At a distance of 190 Km was an American E-2C "HAWKEYE" shot down.

Shoot down a British Tornado in the Iraq war (Syria or Iran?)
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/30/14 07:37 AM

In the mean time I have found only THIS.

While there are no Western reports about either US or any other aircraft ever being fired at by Syrian SA-5s, according to Russian and the Ukrainian media reports, the Syrians claimed up to 12 USN aircraft as shot down on 4 December 1983 - all by SA-5s - and including two F-14s, several A-6Es as well as a single Israeli or USN E-2C. Although almost ridiculous - then there is not the slightest trace of evidence for such claims (the USN Corsairs and Intruders lost on 4 December 1984 were all lost to MANPADs and ZSU-23-4s; while the Israelis never lost any of their E-2Cs), such claims are still frequently repeated even in most recent issues of different specialized Russian and the Ukrainian magazines.
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 05/06/14 04:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
In the mean time I have found only THIS.

While there are no Western reports about either US or any other aircraft ever being fired at by Syrian SA-5s, according to Russian and the Ukrainian media reports, the Syrians claimed up to 12 USN aircraft as shot down on 4 December 1983 - all by SA-5s - and including two F-14s, several A-6Es as well as a single Israeli or USN E-2C. Although almost ridiculous - then there is not the slightest trace of evidence for such claims (the USN Corsairs and Intruders lost on 4 December 1984 were all lost to MANPADs and ZSU-23-4s; while the Israelis never lost any of their E-2Cs), such claims are still frequently repeated even in most recent issues of different specialized Russian and the Ukrainian magazines.


In fact it appears that the only "kill" of SA-5 would be Tu-154M of "Siberia Airlines"....

No Israel E-2 was lost (they have four board numbers: IAF - 941 (US - 160771), 942 (160772), 944 (160773) & 946 (160774). ... http://www.iai.co.il/35439-en/SearchResu...rchText=hawkeye

Data about shot down of a UAV (06.12.1983 - MQM-74 "Telem"), but no confirmation that the SA-5 fired, also no data about launches of UAV at that day:

Here: http://skywar.ru/lebsyr.html




Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 05/06/14 05:37 PM

Thanks. I was surprised too, because I have never heard about a Vega kill (other than Tu-154).
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/07/14 02:49 PM

SA-5:

After missile launch and successful track by missile's GSN, when switch off AS RPC, the missile brakes lock even when target is still in RPC diagram and even inside the speed gates. I think such could deny only CVK of calculate the firing solition for the next launch, not breaking the lock of missile in flight...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/09/14 06:38 AM

I also think so, because AS-RPC is basically not needed for the RPC to track the target - when you go to AS-3 mode (tracking in velocity), the RPC in fact tracks the target in epsilon and beta planes. Range is unknown at this moment, but the target is still illuminated so the missiles should keep flying towards the target.

The other thing is what EXACTLY happens when you disable AS-RPC while tracking is in progress (I will have to try), it could eventually disable also the AS-3, but when the target would be still in the beam of th RPC (as in your case), the missiles in the air must keep guided flight.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/09/14 10:22 AM

When switch off AS RPC, PROLONG is activated, when PROLONG switched offthe missile get lost, when again go on AS-3, it (missile)goes fine again....

But I think you do not focused in relation RPC - GSN, that's the problem! In fact, after target is locked by missile's GSN and target is in flight(sometimes it is the opposite wink ), if the target is illuminated by the RPC beam, the GSN should follow, no matter what AS (or even no AS) is presented...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/09/14 11:43 AM

Yes, that's exactly what I wrote. That AS-RPC is not needed for RPC to track the target (the AS-3 is sufficient for epsilon and beta tracking which in turn is sufficient for GSN to see the target) and thus keeping the beam directed on it in order for missile to receive reflected signal and home on the target wink

So what happens with AS-3 when AS-RPC is switched off? Is it also lost? I can not test it at the moment.

And as I also wrote (the same as you, I agree with you in all points ;)) that if the beam is illuminating the target, the missile should home onto it (no matter of AS mode).
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/09/14 01:49 PM

Quote:
So what happens with AS-3 when AS-RPC is switched off?



When switch off AS RPC, PROLONG is activated, when PROLONG switched off the missile get lost, when again go on AS-3, it (missile)goes fine again....

Quote:
Is it also lost? I can not test it at the moment.


I think it's time for a SAM Sim smartphone app. biggrin
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 09/09/14 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
SA-5:

After missile launch and successful track by missile's GSN, when switch off AS RPC, the missile brakes lock even when target is still in RPC diagram and even inside the speed gates. I think such could deny only CVK of calculate the firing solition for the next launch, not breaking the lock of missile in flight...


Correct. This is a bug in the GSN code.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 09/13/14 05:56 PM

As I given up moving (and screwing up) posts, please describe your last questions...

Do not mix Plamya-KV (CVM) programs (5) with the available 97 flight programs of the SRP.
Before launch, CVM in program 2 (IADS - AS4), 3 (P14 - AS4), or 4 (Jamming - AS2) should supply onboard SRP with the selected flight program 104..201.

Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/13/14 06:23 PM

I am not mixing it, as all info loaded in missile is a result of PLAMYA work...
As those flight programs are combination of trust/height variables and dependent of distance/height of the target (which measured by RPC/CVK), the question is is it possible to manually input info/work without AS-RPC. In some cases it is possible (jamming), so what's the problem to be possible without it....

P.S. Are you sure about those 97 flight programs? Could you tell us more?

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 09/13/14 07:22 PM

1, V880E can pull surprisingly high G's, but its fuel tanks should be empty.
CVM should tell the missiles SRP before launch, the selected program, where the onboard fuel would be depleted just few km before expected impact.

2, ZRD has 97 operating programs, 100/82/32kN and dropping the thrust between them.
CVM can set ZRD flight time between 45..100s (program 105..200).

3, There are three special programs 104, 153, and 201.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/13/14 08:51 PM

Thanks, and what about those special programs?

What happens to the fuel to be depleted a while before impact, is it simply dumped in the air?
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/13/14 08:55 PM

Repost:

Yes, the CVK for a launch must have some range information, but in SAMSIM when I completely track target, then I switch AS-RPC off, PROLONG is thus active and apparently CVK is not computing track range data. But I am able to launch and successfully kill the target. So in this case CVK seemingly has the last range information and uses it for the missile.
Because when I track the target only in velocity, I am unable to launch as there is no any (even not some last estimate) range information.


So the question is the same as piston's one. What happens without AS-RPC (launch according to SAMSIM is not possible when there is not any range data), when PROLONG is active and target's track is not computed anymore.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/13/14 08:57 PM

And one last question for today: there are 97 flight programs for the flight engine (thrust, time and so). How is the flight profile (close/distant target) selected - is it contained in flight programs or is it selected by a different method?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/14/14 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
And one last question for today: there are 97 flight programs for the flight engine (thrust, time and so). How is the flight profile (close/distant target) selected - is it contained in flight programs or is it selected by a different method?



I believe the missile engine program is dependant of expected point of impact height and missile flying time... According to one of the manuals, basically two main regimes existed - regulate thrust program and unregulate trust program:



(non-regulate is line 1; regulate is line 2)

1. Time of flight < 52 sec or T>52 sec and height < 20 km - this must be "unregulate"
2. Time of flight >52 sec and height > 20 km - "regulate" program ...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/14/14 07:39 AM

Thanks, these are details of those two flight modes I was aware (distant/close), but I have not known the details. With my Russian I would read the manuals even in my next 10 lives sigh

So information about 97 flight programs from hpasp has been completely new to me.

I think I will have to get Czech Vega manuals thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

SRP modes - 09/14/14 08:20 AM

These are the SRP program building blocks:

Two fixed thrust program block
1 - fixed thrust 100kN
2 - fixed thrust 32kN

Two decreasing thrust program block
12 - constant rate decreasing thrust 0,97kN/sec
23 - quick rate decreasing thrust from 100kN to 32kN

Special program block
1s - propellant release

Using these program blocks, 97 numbered program is stored in the SRP.

104 - is for long range engagements >80km, fuel is exhausted at ~80km downrange at Mach 6.5 (40s "1", "23")
153 - close range engagements <80km, fuel is exhausted few km before impact (70s "12")
201 - very low altitude engagement, max speed Mach 3 at 38km (50s "12", 50s "2")


Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: SRP modes - 09/14/14 02:52 PM

Thanks.

And what about information exchange between missile and plamya (k2) through OS10 before launch? What type od communication is going on (except flight program selection)?
Posted By: piston79

Re: SRP modes - 09/14/14 04:34 PM



Guys, we had this video before, but now I want to point that the missile had really huge quantity of fuel, and also struggling to maneuver toward the target drone (it looks to me it is flying with great AoA at final intercept)...

Also what was the square symbol on the screen at 1:19?
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: SRP modes - 09/14/14 05:23 PM

The symbol looks like Lisajouss' pattern. There can be seen lines of it and square symbol is the outer outline (envelope) of the pattern.

edit: it is it for sure, when the camera moves upwards, it can be clearly seen, looks like rotating ellipse (evident Lisajouss).

Also P-14 IKO is blank, so they do not employ the P-14.
Posted By: piston79

Re: SRP modes - 09/14/14 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Thanks.

And what about information exchange between missile and plamya (k2) through OS10 before launch? What type od communication is going on (except flight program selection)?


I think also data about RPC current frequency and transmiting mode (not sure it is from "Plamya" anyway)...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: SRP modes - 09/14/14 07:06 PM

Yes, I think too, also there must be signal from the GSN going back to K2.

But I am not sure if there is something more. Supposedly also data for the proximity fuse should be sent to the missile.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: SRP modes - 09/15/14 06:58 AM

Another two questions regarding GSN and missile:

1) missile is launched at a receding target. What happens when missile-target relative velocity is negative (i.e. target is faster than missile) when missile flies with program with reduced thrust. Can SRD react to this and increase thrust regardless of the selected program?

2) what happens when missile-target velocity begins to drop to near zero (for example fast receding target again)? Is GSN lock broken? Again as in the previous question is the missile able to accelerate to compensate for this?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SRP modes - 09/15/14 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Supposedly also data for the proximity fuse should be sent to the missile.


Proximity fuse is a passive one, works differently than the active ones used by other SAM systems.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SRP modes - 09/15/14 08:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Another two questions regarding GSN and missile:

1) missile is launched at a receding target. What happens when missile-target relative velocity is negative (i.e. target is faster than missile) when missile flies with program with reduced thrust. Can SRD react to this and increase thrust regardless of the selected program?

2) what happens when missile-target velocity begins to drop to near zero (for example fast receding target again)? Is GSN lock broken? Again as in the previous question is the missile able to accelerate to compensate for this?


1, Missile program is selected (fixed) before launch. No capability to react for target maneuver.

2, I do not see any air breathing target capable of out-speeding the V880.


Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: SRP modes - 09/15/14 08:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Supposedly also data for the proximity fuse should be sent to the missile.


Proximity fuse is a passive one, works differently than the active ones used by other SAM systems.


Yes, I am aware of this, but what about for example initiation delay and so on? Is it set dynamically by SRD just a while before target according to missile and target parameters?
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: SRP modes - 09/15/14 08:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Another two questions regarding GSN and missile:

1) missile is launched at a receding target. What happens when missile-target relative velocity is negative (i.e. target is faster than missile) when missile flies with program with reduced thrust. Can SRD react to this and increase thrust regardless of the selected program?

2) what happens when missile-target velocity begins to drop to near zero (for example fast receding target again)? Is GSN lock broken? Again as in the previous question is the missile able to accelerate to compensate for this?


1, Missile program is selected (fixed) before launch. No capability to react for target maneuver.

2, I do not see any air breathing target capable of out-speeding the V880.




Thanks.

I know the second question is a rather theoretical one, but I was just curious. I do not think that anybody would launch it at a receding ballistic missile jawdrop
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SRP modes - 09/15/14 09:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Supposedly also data for the proximity fuse should be sent to the missile.


Proximity fuse is a passive one, works differently than the active ones used by other SAM systems.


Yes, I am aware of this, but what about for example initiation delay and so on? Is it set dynamically by SRD just a while before target according to missile and target parameters?


The passive radio proximity fuse (it is actually integral part of the GSN) is armed by the GSN when the target is reached, and uses the RPC signal reflected from the target.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: SRP modes - 09/15/14 10:35 AM

So GSN controls the whole fuse and no parameter is set before launch, if I understand it correctly.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SRP modes - 09/15/14 10:42 AM

Correct.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: SRP modes - 09/15/14 11:24 AM

Thanks thumbsup

So please correct me, when I am wrong:

1) Whole S-200 system is powered on
2) Target is completely tracked by RPC and K2
3) Missile set for preparation through OS10 (power supply and probably start-up command from K3 is sent to the missile)
4) Missile electronic initialisation is started, missile sends "received" signal from GSN to K2 (at this moment missile does not see the target, so there is some signal with no peak in its spectrum until initialisation completes). This signal can be seen on the indicator screen in K2.
4) When initialisation is completed, missile sends received signal from GSN to K2 and K2 sends information about selected flight program to missile. K2 also sends RPC information to the missile - base frequency and doppler frequency. - Question: I suppose K2 sends doppler frequency directly measured by RPC, because missile is stationary on a launch rail at this moment and missile moves its velocity gate during flight according to its own speed.
5) When launch button in K2 is pressed, startup sequence from K3 is sent to the selected missile. - Question: Is the startup sequence automatic, or is controlled manually from K3?
6) Missile starts and flies towards its target, flight is controlled entirely by GSN and SRD (as there is no uplink channel)

Is there any other information exchange between missile and K2 and K3?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SRP modes - 09/16/14 05:09 PM

more or less
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/27/14 10:31 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
When switch off AS RPC, PROLONG is activated, when PROLONG switched off the missile get lost, when again go on AS-3, it (missile)goes fine again....


According "Orders/rules of shooting" - 1984 (article 41), Prolongatzia could be activated after switch off AS-3 too...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/27/14 06:07 PM

What is the meaning of the lower left switch RABOTA PO V discussed in the bugs thread?

As I understand AS VYKL, then AS in speed is off (according to name the switch defines behavior of the system with velocity).
AVTO PEREZACHVAT in VKL position means some sort of switch to automatic tracking in velocity when a target's velocity enters the set velocity gate (automatic AS3 when target is in the gate)?

And what about POLOSA SHIR?

Hpasp some time ago mentioned possibility of automatic tracking of incoming ARM missile which has something to do with switches between two indicator screens (target position in the beam and spectrum analyser) - POISK V and VYBOR DIAPAZON V. How do this work?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/27/14 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
What is the meaning of the lower left switch RABOTA PO V discussed in the bugs thread?


Because it is not the standart position of this knob....

Quote:
As I understand AS VYKL, then AS in speed is off (according to name the switch defines behavior of the system with velocity).


Yes... and this is needed only against noise jamming targets...
Quote:

AVTO PEREZACHVAT in VKL position means some sort of switch to automatic tracking in velocity when a target's velocity enters the set velocity gate (automatic AS3 when target is in the gate)?


No... This is when target used doppler velocity gate pull-off,



when AS velocity gate start moving too fast (because got the jamming) from the RU (manual tracking) gate, it switched off the AS and gates jumps back after hitting certain deviation (which could be different depending of what POLOSA is picked up). Also it happens immediately if the operator pushes PEREZAHVAT V button





Quote:

And what about POLOSA SHIR?


*It is 4.6 KHz deviation/ POLOSA UZKAYA - 800 MHz deviation...

Quote:
Hpasp some time ago mentioned possibility of automatic tracking of incoming ARM missile which has something to do with switches between two indicator screens (target position in the beam and spectrum analyser) - POISK V and VYBOR DIAPAZON V. How do this work?


No idea...

------------

*- not 100% sure about that....
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 06:53 AM

Thanks!

Just POLOSA UZKAYA would be another frequency than 800MHz, it is way too much :-)
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 07:01 AM

Just a question:

when AS velocity gate start moving too fast (because got the jamming) from the RU (manual tracking) gate, it switched off the AS and gates jumps back after hitting certain deviation (which could be different depending of what POLOSA is picked up). Also it happens immediately if the operator pushes PEREZAHVAT V button


Shouldn't it be it switched ON the AS and move the gate back after the gate moves beyond the deviation when in RU?
Because when in RU, than it does not make sense to switch off AS as it is not active. And AVTO PEREZACHVAT suggests the opposite.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 07:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Just a question:

when AS velocity gate start moving too fast (because got the jamming) from the RU (manual tracking) gate, it switched off the AS and gates jumps back after hitting certain deviation (which could be different depending of what POLOSA is picked up). Also it happens immediately if the operator pushes PEREZAHVAT V button


Shouldn't it be it switched ON the AS and move the gate back after the gate moves beyond the deviation when in RU?
Because when in RU, than it does not make sense to switch off AS as it is not active. And AVTO PEREZACHVAT suggests the opposite.


I think no, as S-200 could use AS, and at the same time the operator just keeps the RU gates on target, thus when AS goes after the jamming strobe, it measures the deviation from RU and AS strobes, and when hit certain value (~4.6 KHz or 800 Hz, it switching AS off over the jamming strobe, goes back to target strobe and switching AS again...*

*- please, reffer this to a real officer for confirmation....
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 01:32 PM

Thanks, now the principle is clear to me.
RPC is tracking the target and when VGPO jamming is active, than the heading and elevation (its change in time respectively) of RPC would not correlate with target's velocity and when difference in velocity (calculated in doppler frequency) is greater than 4,6 or 0,8kHz, then it will switch AS-3 off and enters RU mode.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Thanks, now the principle is clear to me.
RPC is tracking the target and when VGPO jamming is active, than the heading and elevation (its change in time respectively) of RPC would not correlate with target's velocity and when difference in velocity (calculated in doppler frequency) is greater than 4,6 or 0,8kHz, then it will switch AS-3 off and enters RU mode.


Not exactly IMHO, as the beta/epsilon tracking is based a bit like in SA-4... Comparing received signal between 2 or more receivers... Remember that velocity is a way to discriminate targets also. When VGPO kicks in, it took your narrow AS velocity gate from the target velocity return and lead it away (another speed zone), and when it was switching off, there is nothing to be tracked, so AS on velocity is lost (meanwhile if target maneuvers, it could slips away from the beam, thus cannot be find even when return velocity gates according the targets speed. That's why when we're tracking maneuvering target (which could use jamming as we expected), it is better to use POLOSA SHIROKAYA, as the target itself could suddenly changes it's radial speed toward us....

Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 02:52 PM

Yes, it is like what I wrote. RPC in epsilon and beta planes tracks the REAL position of target (V is not needed for this). So the change of epsilon and beta coordinates in time is known and it means REAL target's track. {In CW mode we do not know the target's distance, but it is calculated by CVM from RPC position changes and measured velocity}.
When VGPO is active, then the velocity measured (V) at one moment begins to rise rapidly, but the RPC will still track target (epsilon and beta) and this "small" change of position of RPC (respective to target's REAL position and thus REAL speed which is lower than measured velocity) will not correlate with measured apparent speed and when the change is bigger than 4,6kHz or 0,8kHz then the AS to RU (along with velocity gate shift) switch will happen.

In any case it would be very very great to have this simulated. And also other such advanced scenarios, you can learn the system very deeply when you dig in such things.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 02:58 PM

The bottom line is the fact that because of these discussions one really knows what is the real purpose of the given switch, because you know WHY it should be switched to each position and you know better WHEN to switch it (not to be just strictly lead by instructions) thumbsup
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 03:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd


In any case it would be very very great to have this simulated. And also other such advanced scenarios, you can learn the system very deeply when you dig in such things.



I think SA-5 is too complicated to be simulated with all aspects, also we are just enthusiast, so not necessary to have such SIM, also Hpasp is doing it is not his job...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 04:20 PM

K7 also not simulated yet...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 06:38 PM

Another question: is GSN, while missile is in flight, somehow capable to withstand VGPO jamming? Maybe false doppler frequency can drop to zero....
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/28/14 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Another question: is GSN, while missile is in flight, somehow capable to withstand VGPO jamming? Maybe false doppler frequency can drop to zero....


For what I managed to find - yes, but the mechanism of this is in RPC, as missile has not enough "brain" to do it...
Could you explain your second sentence? I didn't get your point... sigh
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/29/14 07:19 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Another question: is GSN, while missile is in flight, somehow capable to withstand VGPO jamming? Maybe false doppler frequency can drop to zero....


For what I managed to find - yes, but the mechanism of this is in RPC, as missile has not enough "brain" to do it...
Could you explain your second sentence? I didn't get your point... sigh


Let's imagine the following situation:
- Target is not jamming and is being tracked by RPC.
- Missile is launched
- While missile is flying towards the target, the target will start VGPO jamming
- what will happen in this situation as missile is guided by its own GSN, will it maintain lock?

The second sentence: for example high speed target is flying away from SAM site while missile is still climbing, so the part of its speed vector in direction to the target is low, and thus GSN receives negative doppler velocity (missile is climbing yet, so its closure rate to the target is negative yet).
The target starts VGPO jamming, it will send false return signal with increasing frequency. At one moment, false doppler velocity will be very close to zero and zero at all. Does it break the GSN's lock? The question is how fast the false doppler velocity will cross the filtered "forbidden zone" across zero. And in any way, since the missile is supposed to fly, does it have the "forbidden zone" across zero implemented like the stationary RPC?
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/29/14 07:23 AM

I just realized this is the case I asked some time ago what happens when GSN receives zero doppler velocity. It can be easily observed while missile is climbing (constant angle of 48 degrees) and its target is flying away at the same horizontal speed (quite a rare and theoretical case, I know burnout).
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 09/29/14 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Another question: is GSN, while missile is in flight, somehow capable to withstand VGPO jamming? Maybe false doppler frequency can drop to zero....


For what I managed to find - yes, but the mechanism of this is in RPC, as missile has not enough "brain" to do it...
Could you explain your second sentence? I didn't get your point... sigh



Missile can reacquire lost target, so VGPO jamming is not a good option.
(one of the main feature of the 5V21V missile -> manual page 34)

After launch, missile doesn't need target range or speed information (engine program is fixed after launch), just direction (visible in KI-234V).
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/29/14 04:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
I just realized this is the case I asked some time ago what happens when GSN receives zero doppler velocity. It can be easily observed while missile is climbing (constant angle of 48 degrees) and its target is flying away at the same horizontal speed (quite a rare and theoretical case, I know burnout).


First, there is a limit when shooting at receding targets, which at the moment is not simulated...

Also, there are 2 functions that helps - "V POLETE", and "V<0". They denied GSN from locking with certain time lag (thing about 6 to 12 seconds) in order to achieve good positive radial speed....
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 09/29/14 06:26 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
I just realized this is the case I asked some time ago what happens when GSN receives zero doppler velocity. It can be easily observed while missile is climbing (constant angle of 48 degrees) and its target is flying away at the same horizontal speed (quite a rare and theoretical case, I know burnout).


First, there is a limit when shooting at receding targets, which at the moment is not simulated...

Also, there are 2 functions that helps - "V POLETE", and "V<0". They denied GSN from locking with certain time lag (thing about 6 to 12 seconds) in order to achieve good positive radial speed....


two comments...
1, GSN unable to track V0 radial speed target before launch, is simulated.
2, "V Polete" is capturing the target in direction before launch, but not in speed.
Few seconds after launch, it captures it in V also.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 10/25/14 05:57 PM


That's a nasty trick...

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 10/25/14 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79

That's a nasty trick...




Tragic misunderstanding of the real world...
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 10/25/14 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Tragic misunderstanding of the real world...


?????
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 10/26/14 05:17 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Tragic misunderstanding of the real world...


?????


Since 1967 (the fielding of the S-200 [SA-5]), no new type of towed or fixed SAM system were fielded by the Soviet Union, only self propelled ones (5 min readiness as basic requirement), and with a good reason.

Almost half century later there is a proposal for the upgrade of the SA-5 (a hopelessly outdated system, that actually never performed while it was still young in the 80's)?

rolleyes
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 10/26/14 06:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Since 1967 (the fielding of the S-200 [SA-5]), no new type of towed or fixed SAM system were fielded by the Soviet Union, only self propelled ones (5 min readiness as basic requirement), and with a good reason.

Almost half century later there is a proposal for the upgrade of the SA-5 (a hopelessly outdated system, that actually never performed while it was still young in the 80's)?

rolleyes


I cannot believe what did you say.... you're speaking like GrayGhost....
By the way, it is pretty recently that SAM missiles could achieve a distance of the VEGA shot...
Posted By: ckfinite

Re: Bug reports - 10/27/14 03:42 PM

I think that he's referring to the poor endgame kinematics of very large missiles. It's hard for a missile as big as S-200 (and, for that matter, likely 40N6) to keep up with tactical aircraft, think F-15E or F/A-18. The only realistic targets are bombers and ISR aircraft, and the former have evolved somewhat out of the reach of S-200 (B-1B flies below the altitude floor, and B-2 has good LO characteristics against Square Pair).

Furthermore, truly fixed systems like S-200 are extremely vulnerable to cruise missiles, especially given S-200's engagement floor. S-200 isn't truly viable anymore, with even S-75 and S-125 surpassing its usefulness.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 10/27/14 08:23 PM

Originally Posted By: ckfinite
I think that he's referring to the poor endgame kinematics of very large missiles. It's hard for a missile as big as S-200 (and, for that matter, likely 40N6) to keep up with tactical aircraft, think F-15E or F/A-18.
The only realistic targets are bombers and ISR aircraft, and the former have evolved somewhat out of the reach of S-200 (B-1B flies below the altitude floor, and B-2 has good LO characteristics against Square Pair).


I am not really sure about that, in the case of the 40N6 missile....

Originally Posted By: ckfinite
Furthermore, truly fixed systems like S-200 are extremely vulnerable to cruise missiles, especially given S-200's engagement floor. S-200 isn't truly viable anymore, with even S-75 and S-125 surpassing its usefulness.


Yep, that's true if you're going to fight USA/Israel...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 10/28/14 03:30 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Since 1967 (the fielding of the S-200 [SA-5]), no new type of towed or fixed SAM system were fielded by the Soviet Union, only self propelled ones (5 min readiness as basic requirement), and with a good reason.

Almost half century later there is a proposal for the upgrade of the SA-5 (a hopelessly outdated system, that actually never performed while it was still young in the 80's)?

rolleyes


I cannot believe what did you say.... you're speaking like GrayGhost....
By the way, it is pretty recently that SAM missiles could achieve a distance of the VEGA shot...


Do not misunderstood me, I think that Vega was an extraordinary technical feat of that time

- it mostly achieved what it was designed for
(keeping Habu out of the WarPact airspace)

- its the biggest challenge to operate and simulate.
(it is the least covered by SAMSIM, I would say that Volhov is at least 80% simulated, while Vega is well under 40%)

- with the proliferation of Tomahawk, Soviets usually co-located one Neva with their Vegas
(same was done in GDR at the 80s, and Hungary during the 90s)

- Shooting well over 200km range is probably unnecessary
(or can be done against non maneuvering subsonic targets only)

- Since 1967 (first fileding of the S-200) no Soviet SAM system was accepted into service without the 5min deploy from march feature.
(and with a good reason)

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 10/28/14 03:43 PM

Originally Posted By: ckfinite
I think that he's referring to the poor endgame kinematics of very large missiles. It's hard for a missile as big as S-200 (and, for that matter, likely 40N6) to keep up with tactical aircraft, think F-15E or F/A-18. The only realistic targets are bombers and ISR aircraft, and the former have evolved somewhat out of the reach of S-200 (B-1B flies below the altitude floor, and B-2 has good LO characteristics against Square Pair).

Furthermore, truly fixed systems like S-200 are extremely vulnerable to cruise missiles, especially given S-200's engagement floor. S-200 isn't truly viable anymore, with even S-75 and S-125 surpassing its usefulness.


Interestingly, the Vega missile could achieve higher pull than the other SAMs at his time...
SA-5B V-880V - 10g
SA-4B 3M8M3 - 6g
SA-3B V-601P - 6g
SA-2E V-759 - 9g
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 04/08/15 07:37 AM

Question about proximity fuse - how is the warhead detonated when GSN is in home on jam mode?
5N62 signal reflected from the jamming target would be ovepowered by that of the jammer. And missile does not know transmitting power of the jammer, so how is the trigger point calculated?
Posted By: Comrade_Hedgehog

Re: Bug reports - 04/08/15 08:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Question about proximity fuse - how is the warhead detonated when GSN is in home on jam mode?
5N62 signal reflected from the jamming target would be ovepowered by that of the jammer. And missile does not know transmitting power of the jammer, so how is the trigger point calculated?


Impact/Point Detonation? hahaha
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 04/08/15 08:14 AM

I can't imagine impact detonation in case of a fast target and as far as I know, there is no contact fuse in 5V21 and 5V28.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 04/08/15 09:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Question about proximity fuse - how is the warhead detonated when GSN is in home on jam mode?
5N62 signal reflected from the jamming target would be ovepowered by that of the jammer. And missile does not know transmitting power of the jammer, so how is the trigger point calculated?


The passive fuse working is quite an intricate topic, but on short.
- GSN is continuously tracking the jammer
- when GSN antenna acceleration reaches a limit fuse is armed
- fuse is highly directional towards the side
- when jamming is detected to be at the side of the missile, warhead detonated
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 04/08/15 10:55 AM

Thanks thumbsup Now it is clear, distance missile-target is not important, because when the signal comes from the side, the missile could not get any closer to the target (only farther). So it is the only moment when the warhead can be detonated and we can hope for a kill.

I forgot the GSN antenna angle change is an arming condition for the fuse also in normal (non-jamming) environment.

By the way, what about the thing mentioned in the bug reports topic? Is the RPC tracking needed for successful intercept when in home on jam mode in the real world? And what about SAMSIM behavior?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 04/08/15 07:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd


I forgot the GSN antenna angle change is an arming condition for the fuse also in normal (non-jamming) environment.



Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 04/08/15 10:51 PM

piston: thumbsup
Posted By: farokh

Re: Bug reports - 04/22/15 08:55 PM

++++ to piston



without the boosters
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 05/13/15 06:01 PM

V-880GLL Cholod Hypersonic Testbed




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...tch-50-000.html
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 06/06/15 06:09 PM

K4 (!!!) van of the S-200V system.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 06/06/15 06:41 PM

What is K4?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 06/07/15 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
What is K4?



It is "Vega"'s IRZ... wave
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 06/07/15 01:06 PM

Thanks wave Just wondering why the whole van for it.

In Dobris we had Vega fitted with IRZ (according to photos) but I have never heard of K4 nope, so it is a new information for me.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 06/07/15 01:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Thanks wave Just wondering why the whole van for it.

In Dobris we had Vega fitted with IRZ (according to photos) but I have never heard of K4 nope, so it is a new information for me.


Its name is 5U24, and had one K4 (transmitter cabin), and four KA-441 antenna (target).






Do you have photos of the Czechslovak IRZ?
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 06/07/15 02:15 PM

Thanks! thumbsup
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 06/07/15 02:56 PM

By the way, if I understand it correctly - there is a transmitter completely contained in K4, waveguide goes out of K4 to a wavesplitter and the "antennas to be destructed" are simply waveguides with feeders. So in case IRZ anetnna is hit, nothing of great value is destroyed, because all electronics is contained in a K4 van.

Is K4 somehow connected to K1? I mean if it transmits only when RPC is transmitting and if it change for example wave type (MXI, FKM....) according to RPC?
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 06/07/15 02:57 PM

I saw one picture a very long time ago. I tried to find it but without any success yet sigh
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 06/22/15 05:06 PM


Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 06/23/15 07:31 AM

K3? Where you got it?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 06/23/15 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
K3? Where you got it?


youtube... - those are Azeri SA-5...
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 07/04/15 04:42 PM

The video:




.....aaand the story behind:

Story behind
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 07/04/15 08:26 PM

Great video and it is very nice to see all those well known indicator screens in a real action (also those from a PRV) thumbsup
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 07/16/15 07:57 PM

Intelligence report:

ST-68UM was sold to North Korea. It could substitute PRV/P-14 couple and thru K9 will give 3D-coordinates to S-200VE... screwy


Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 07/16/15 08:21 PM

ST-68U is a good phase modulated 3D radar (originally part of the S-300PMU offering for WarPact).
In my opinion, it will be a struggle, to fully substitute the P-14, range wise.

(The S-300PMU had 75km ranged missiles, while the S-200VE missiles has 255km max range.)
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 07/17/15 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
ST-68U is a good phase modulated 3D radar (originally part of the S-300PMU offering for WarPact).
In my opinion, it will be a struggle, to fully substitute the P-14, range wise.




True, but let's see:
1. ST-68 uses (almost)the same diapason like SA-5 and "see" in 3D the same SA-5 see (jamming, speed etc). It wouldn't be like P-14's "somewhere there"...
2. It could do really fast transfer of target coordinates to the SA-5...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 07/17/15 07:01 PM

How coordinates are transferred from a modern radar like ST-68 to Vega? Through CU way?

What is a "diapason" (I know this term is used in Vega, but I thought it is something like range - there is a switch for selection range of velocities - VYBOR DIAPAZON V)? Did you mean beamwidth as it would make more sense?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 07/17/15 07:27 PM

1. True K-9, no idea how exactly would happen, but I think it would be like mini-IADS....




2. Nope, I mean band....
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 07/18/15 07:53 PM

Thanks
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 08/05/15 09:53 PM

This is captcha I just got wave Just insert a "2" into the text at the correct position thumbsup


It is even more interesting as there can be both lower and upper case letters in this captcha....
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 12/26/15 04:58 PM

Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 12/27/15 07:45 AM

WTF????


Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 12/27/15 07:30 PM

Thanks for the RPC detection characteristics, do you have similar for Vega?

Who is creator of the madness in the second picture? Where you got it from?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 12/27/15 09:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Thanks for the RPC detection characteristics, do you have similar for Vega?

Who is creator of the maddness in the second picture? Where you got it from?


1. Yes:





2. Here: Source
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 12/27/15 11:27 PM

Unfortunately I can't see Vega picture :-(

Regarding the crazy mobile S-200 I can not imagine how would a mobile launcher survive Vega launch with its powerful boosters sigh
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 12/28/15 05:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Unfortunately I can't see Vega picture :-(

Regarding the crazy mobile S-200 I can not imagine how would a mobile launcher survive Vega launch with its powerful boosters sigh


Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 03/01/16 06:10 PM

Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 03/02/16 01:37 PM

Is this capable to launch Vega, or is it only a transporter? Construction of the trailer does not look tough enough.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 03/02/16 06:42 PM

Photoshop?
biggrin
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 03/02/16 09:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Photoshop?
biggrin


Probably, but it was an idea of "modernizing" Qaddafi's SA-5-s....
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 06/22/16 05:40 PM

S-200 (most probably) plotting board:



Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 06/23/16 01:43 PM

Looks like, given the red 250km circle probably marking effective range, thus it should be Vega.
What is source of the image?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 06/23/16 05:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Looks like, given the red 250km circle probably marking effective range, thus it should be Vega.


That's what I suspected too...


Quote:
What is source of the image?


Internet... wink
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 06/24/16 12:36 PM

Joskar Ola is clearly readable (at the bottom right), so if you go from there 240km at 325 degree, you will find the abandoned S-200 site...



... here:


Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 07/01/16 06:18 AM

Nice find thumbsup
Posted By: Comrade_Hedgehog

Re: Bug reports - 07/21/16 02:27 PM

This place?

"Ponazyrevo"
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/08/16 09:15 AM

How exactly does proximity fuse in Vega missiles work?
Is it somehow linked with GSN?

I know it is activated when GSN antenna movement is faster than 30 degrees per second (if I remember correctly) and what then?
Proximity fuse will start to receive reflected RPC signal, but how is the exact warhead ignition time calculated? Since the target can be elsewhere and its radar reflectivity is also undefined, the system can not rely on received signal strength only (it can vary a lot). It can evaluate received signal change with time (the first or the second derivation) but I think it is not sufficient also. When you have fast incoming target, the warhead must be ignited well before missile gets to close vicinity of the target. The opposing situation is when the missile is "hunting" fast receding target - in this case warhead detonation must be significantly delayed contrary to the first scenario described.

This leads me to fact that proximity fuse must be closely linked to GSN, but how to tell when it is the right moment for detonation?
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/08/16 12:41 PM

http://englishrussia.com/2016/08/12/the-...-samara-region/
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 09/09/16 09:46 AM

How exactly does proximity fuse in Vega missiles work?

It has a semi active type of proximity fuse, receiving only the RPC signal reflected from the target.
To decide the warhead detonation time, it switches on receiving only when the missile GSN antenna exceeds its tracking limit.
Measuring the target direction is done by phase measurement of the received signal, with a dual antenna setup.
The dual antenna is built on to the GSN itself.




Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/09/16 11:56 AM

Thnaks, but something remains for me.

I know about angular velocity as I wrote, but what about target distance (it is linked to angular velocity, but you have to know at least the missile-target velocity) and missile-target velocity (GSN knows the doppler frequency). So how the correct time moment is calculated?

You can have a big "PROMACH" (miss distance), especially in case of close and/or highly reflective target, and warhead would detonate if you relied only on angular velocity.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/09/16 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Thnaks, but something remains for me.

I know about angular velocity as I wrote, but what about target distance (it is linked to angular velocity, but you have to know at least the missile-target velocity) and missile-target velocity (GSN knows the doppler frequency). So how the correct time moment is calculated?

You can have a big "PROMACH" (miss distance), especially in case of close and/or highly reflective target, and warhead would detonate if you relied only on angular velocity.


In Hpasp case it is a way to deal with jamming target...

In case of non-jamming scenario it is using change in Doppler frequency shift... Have in mind, that until the last radiofuse block is released, the missile is guided to the target, and after GSN lock is lost, there are just fraction of seconds until missile and target passing by each other - as missile has speed between 800 to more than 1000 m/s (!) (check our Tu-154 investigation), so in most cases the target is really near....

When GSN lock is broken, the doppler frequency at that moment is memorized, and when the difference between the memorized value and the current value (as missile continued to the point of impact) became ~ 8 KHz, the radiofuse is activating the warhead is detonating....

Here, the best I found... Radiofuse S-200 (5V21 maybe)

Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/10/16 06:57 PM

Thanks! thumbsup

I have some reading for evenings to come thumbsup

BTW, when GSN lock is broken, what is source of doppler frequency to be comapred to memorized one? Signal from proximity fuse?
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/10/16 07:36 PM

Lock broken doesn't mean loss of signal, and radiofuse is a receiver also... As far as I understand russian, I think it is the radiofuse that receiled the signal too....


It's hard when Lonewolf is not around...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/12/16 11:33 AM

Yes, that's what I thought too.
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/13/16 12:57 PM

Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: Bug reports - 09/14/16 01:39 PM

It is a nice comparison of first stage engine size to a human being.
When four of them accelerate such a heavy missile within moments, thay just have to be big :-)

By the way, where is it from? Libya?
Posted By: Muggs

Re: News and Videos of not simulated SAM Systems - 09/14/16 05:29 PM

From twitter reporting Syrian SA-5 fired 2 missiles on Israeli aircraft while in their airspace.

https://twitter.com/IsraelBreaking/status/776096780081651712

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking...ria/2016/09/13/
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: News and Videos of not simulated SAM Systems - 09/14/16 06:12 PM

Mount Qasioun has only Petchora:
https://goo.gl/maps/5Jtykx8QQYA2

The closest Vega is at least 35km away:
https://goo.gl/maps/7wZsPTkQ6nu
Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/14/16 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd


By the way, where is it from? Libya?


They say Syria....
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 09/15/16 06:33 AM

Syria fielded 2x2 battery of S-200VE in 1984 (among the first export clients), and the same amount in 1988.
Total of 4 locations, with 2 batteries each.

Posted By: piston79

Re: Bug reports - 09/15/16 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Syria fielded 2x2 battery of S-200VE in 1984 (among the first export clients), and the same amount in 1988.
Total of 4 locations, with 2 batteries each.




Near Aleppo...

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2045644.html

By the way, there was a rummor that couple of days ago SAA launched S-200 against an IAF raid and shot down drone and IAF plane.... Israel confirmed the launch ot two missiles away from their planes...



Quote:
IDF dismisses Syria claim it shot down 2 Israeli aircraft
The IDF in a statement confirmed it had been shot at, but said aircraft used to target Syrian positions overnight were safe.

“Two surface-to-air missiles were launched from Syria after the mission overnight to target Syrian artillery positions,” an IDF statement said. “At no point was the safety of IDF aircraft compromised.”

Channel 2 news reported on Tuesday evening that the missiles fired by the Syrians were launched well after the raid, as the Israeli planes were on their way back to base.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-denies-syrian-claim-it-shot-down-two-israeli-aircraft/

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4854056,00.html
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: Bug reports - 09/15/16 01:45 PM

According to Russian Chief of General Staff...

http://svpressa.ru/war21/article/156362/

Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/17/17 07:45 AM

Again possible S-200 launch against IDF....

This time Arrow-3 fights off at least one missile...

https://twitter.com/IvanSidorenko1/status/842571185808392192

https://twitter.com/samiaah10/status/842590098495586304/video/1

http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Report-Red-alert-siren-heard-in-Jordan-Valley-484452

[Linked Image]



Posted By: Jonas85

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/17/17 11:56 AM

Quote
This time Arrow-3 fights off at least one missile...


Would this be a first ever combat kill by SAM against a SAM?
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/17/17 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jonas85
Quote
This time Arrow-3 fights off at least one missile...


Would this be a first ever combat kill by SAM against a SAM?


Interesting question, indeed...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/17/17 02:00 PM

Of course NOT!
In Ashuluk, most targets were Sz-25 Berkut missiles...
Posted By: Jonas85

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/17/17 02:24 PM

I mean combat kill, dear Hpasp. It's not quite the same as shooting a drone missile in a controlled environment...
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/17/17 03:03 PM



UPD. It looks like this is the body of the interceptor, just 20 km from Israel-Jordanian border...
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/18/17 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by piston79


UPD. It looks like this is the body of the interceptor, just 20 km from Israel-Jordanian border...

Looks like so, 5V28 would have bigger body diameter in comparison to people in background.
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/19/17 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Alien_MasterMynd
Originally Posted by piston79


UPD. It looks like this is the body of the interceptor, just 20 km from Israel-Jordanian border...

Looks like so, 5V28 would have bigger body diameter in comparison to people in background.



It should be the stage of interceptor misile
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/20/17 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by piston79
Originally Posted by Alien_MasterMynd
Originally Posted by piston79


UPD. It looks like this is the body of the interceptor, just 20 km from Israel-Jordanian border...

Looks like so, 5V28 would have bigger body diameter in comparison to people in background.



It should be the stage of interceptor misile

Yes, that's what I wrote :-) If it was a part of 5V28 it would be more "thick",
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/26/17 11:11 AM


Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/26/17 03:26 PM

Download them.... Youtube is not a save place for them!
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 09/22/17 11:57 AM



Claimed Syrian SA-5 launch against israeli drone...

I think it is something smaller...
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 10/16/17 08:59 PM

IAF destroyed SA-5 RPN east of Damascus with 4 bombs....
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 01/05/18 08:14 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/16/18 10:26 AM

S-200/SA-5 is responsible for downing of an IAF F-16I "Sufa" on 10th of February.

Some 5V28 missiles fallen on Israel, and some - in Mediterranean sea...

[Linked Image]


The F-16 fighter jet was brought down near the village of Harduf in northern Israel

[Linked Image]


IAF retaliation strike:

[Linked Image]


SA-5 missile wreckage in Israel:

[Linked Image]

[img]https://twitter.com/yarinah1/status/962317197090738177[/img]

Posted By: PN79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 02/26/18 05:42 PM

Here is interesting article regarding that Israeli F-16 and its shooting down:
https://warisboring.com/50408-2/
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/02/18 05:55 PM

piston, PN: nice thumbsup

Btw, what K-4 should have been? Some modernized RPC or something?
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/05/18 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Alien_MasterMynd
piston, PN: nice thumbsup

Btw, what K-4 should have been? Some modernized RPC or something?


PESA instead of P-14 and PRV-17
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 03/05/18 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by piston79
Originally Posted by Alien_MasterMynd
piston, PN: nice thumbsup

Btw, what K-4 should have been? Some modernized RPC or something?


PESA instead of P-14 and PRV-17

Thanks!
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/18/18 02:29 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 04/18/18 07:22 PM

Mourning of 10-th of april somewhere in Turkey...

https://twitter.com/orko_8/status/985268000059248640
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 05/11/18 07:00 PM

bad day in Syria...

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dc7XJgdXkAEVE1e?format=jpg[/img]

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dc7XJQzX0AE4B4e?format=jpg[/img]

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dc7XJw3XUAEj6kh?format=jpg[/img]
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/27/18 05:04 PM


SA-5 Manual SAM Sim with some addons

here some more from personal expirience

Russian speakers only....
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 08/28/18 11:30 AM

On 1:01 - some SAM Simulator shots...


Posted By: tolai_nd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 09/22/18 08:43 PM

Hello, can someone explain the latest incident how Syrian S-200 shot down a Russian IL-20 when the Israeli F-16 used it as a shield (according to Russian MoD)?
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 09/22/18 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by tolai_nd
Hello, can someone explain the latest incident how Syrian S-200 shot down a Russian IL-20 when the Israeli F-16 used it as a shield (according to Russian MoD)?



MoD of Russian federation is a bunch of idiots, liars and killers....
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 09/22/18 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by tolai_nd
Hello, can someone explain the latest incident how Syrian S-200 shot down a Russian IL-20 when the Israeli F-16 used it as a shield (according to Russian MoD)?


Please, check SA-5 manual about NCTR (target regognition)....

[Linked Image]
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/01/19 01:59 PM

This night Syrian Air Defense forces managed to sent a 5V28 missile in Cyprus..

[Linked Image]

The missile selfdestruct in the air....

Do you remember how selfdestruction in 5V28 works? biggrin
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/10/19 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by piston79
This night Syrian Air Defense forces managed to sent a 5V28 missile in Cyprus..

[Linked Image]

The missile selfdestruct in the air....

Do you remember how selfdestruction in 5V28 works? biggrin

:-O

Does 5V28 have a selfdestruct mechanism? Else than loss of thrust when fuel runs out. But that does not selfdestruct while in flight....
Posted By: piston79

Re: S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) - 07/13/19 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Alien_MasterMynd
Originally Posted by piston79
This night Syrian Air Defense forces managed to sent a 5V28 missile in Cyprus..

[Linked Image]

The missile selfdestruct in the air....

Do you remember how selfdestruction in 5V28 works? biggrin

:-O

Does 5V28 have a selfdestruct mechanism? Else than loss of thrust when fuel runs out. But that does not selfdestruct while in flight....



After power source quits, the warhead detonates... Usually power source is working about 240 seconds...
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