Also, I'd be very interested in any information you could provide about the SA-4, such as the reference sites you used while creating the system. I've been unsuccessful so far in finding any truly in-depth information regarding the SA-4, or the 3M8M3.
That is the leftmost round instrument of the K9 cabin. (It is not simulated) In this cabin, the commander of the site were guided the firing batteries.
About the SA4, I got the usual (~1500 pages of) Hungarian language manuals...
Ugh.. It's always a language I can't read, lol. After spending a few more hours Google diving, I'm really surprised by the lack of interesting information. It seems like every site I find that actually mentions the 2K11-M1/SA-4 just repeats what all the others say. And so far the only internal images I've found are pictures taken by someone who thought it'd be great to place a massive watermark of his email address right through the middle. Pretty sad as they're up close pictures of some of the station panels..
I am however rather pleased with some of the pictures I found of the missile, a performance chart, and pictures showing how the radar deploys/stows.
Quote:
Also, two new questions. First, after the initial launch of the missile, are the solid fuel boosters ripped off of the 3M8M3 missile, or is there a system to release them? Secondly, what does 1 do?
All the WarPact, (and I assume) that Western systems were capable of it. (You need the capability to tune your frequency away, if you are close to another similar system.)
Is a Krug 'engagement' really one missile though? ~ I had the impression (not confirmed by checking the manuals I must admit) that almost all fired 2-3 missiles per target.
With 2 rounds for the engagement, the equivalent SSKP is 83% & within the range of the other missiles.
Obviously in the 'real world' nothing like this accuracy should be expected from any of these systems, especially if you have dense jamming and ARM considerations that might force dropping track, plus manoeuvring fighter targets.
Manual describes different cases:
Using one 3M8M3 missile... ... against a 6g maneuvering target, you have 50~90% hit probability. ... against a less than 5g maneuvering target, you have at least 75% hit probability.
On Emba shot on a "Virage" - РМ on the basis of ЗМ8. Shot also against reflector (parachute) and against(La-17) earlier. Here such event. In 1985 shot on "Virage". On the first target any of 9 stations of crew has not track succesfuly. Shooting have stopped - crews - couple of weeks training. As then it turned out - in РМ have not put an angular reflector - no one knew is it on purpose or not.. After two weeks on two targets spent 7 rockets. I.e. reflection 3М8 is not enough for this complex...
Is it nnormal, when the target is in full tracking and switch off the transmitter - to have on display killing zones and point of impact? Also, still when SNR is hit, the game terminated (that was reported as a bug by someone before...
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/03/1211:10 AM
Is it supposed to be impossible to hit the A-4 during training with the SA-4?
Always shortly after launch my missiles disappear. I guess hitting the ground? The manual says minimum target altitude is 300m, and I always launch when the target altitude is 600-1000m, but still they disappear.
Is it supposed to be impossible to hit the A-4 during training with the SA-4?
Always shortly after launch my missiles disappear. I guess hitting the ground? The manual says minimum target altitude is 300m, and I always launch when the target altitude is 600-1000m, but still they disappear.
Am I doing something wrong?
Use T/T guidance mode...Also low level killing envelope is quite small (wait 'till point of impact reaches ~12 km). It is nice when has some questions about SIM to post at least both AAR-s....
1. why sa-4 ganef retire from sevis ? of course u talk about that but i forget it 2. why this system do not sent to other country ? no iran no iraq ... just serveral country 3. sa-4 missile can how many keep G force on air ? 10G ? 12G ? 14G? 4. why when i launched sa-4 and check 3daar ... missile like a crazy rocket going down and going up ?
1. why sa-4 ganef retire from sevis ? of course u talk about that but i forget it 2. why this system do not sent to other country ? no iran no iraq ... just serveral country 3. sa-4 missile can how many keep G force on air ? 10G ? 12G ? 14G? 4. why when i launched sa-4 and check 3daar ... missile like a crazy rocket going down and going up ?
br
1,2 I think that these were discussed earlier.
The main purpose of fielding the KRUG Brigade (SA-4B) was to defend the WarPact Army of Front SCUD (SS-1C) Brigade armed with nuclear weapons.
As no nuclear tipped SCUD (SS-1C) was exported outside the WarPact, there was no point to export its air defense.
When Hungary exited the WarPact, all nuclear warheads of our SCUD missiles were shipped back to Russia.
As Hungary never had any conventional warhead for the SCUD system, the SCUDs were scrapped, with its air defense few years after.
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/21/1205:15 AM
Originally Posted By: max2012
Where did the user "Mdore" has found 300 meters
From the manual
"Selecting missile guidance method Preparations for Shooting using 3m (Three Point) guidance method (Push the X button to call up the Commanders and Angle Officers panels) If the target parameters are in the green zone, (H 300m-16km, V<=330m/s) the three- point guidance method is selected.
...
Preparations for Shooting using 1⁄2 (Half-Lead) guidance method (Push the X button to call up the Commanders and Angle Officers panels) If the target parameters are in the green zone, (H 300m-24.5km, V<=800m/s) the half- lead guidance method can be selected."
When the target is above the the SNR, than several functions could return 0, so this issue should be investigated more.
I believe that when target goes out of P-40's detection, "Pat Hand" just must stop trackin it (when no range or angle track was established0, and when it appears again, should be reaquired with the joystick on p-40 and then send to "Pat hand'....
It is a quite an interesting issue how "Long track" is autotracking targets...
The 1S12 SOC (Long Track) tracks the target similarly as the modern digital radars (ST-68U [Tin Shield]) do, just they do it for several targets parallel.
It first measures the (X/Y/H)"0" coordinate of a target, than during the next sweep, finds the closest target to that coordinate. This will be the (X/Y/H)"1" coordinate. With a quick math, delta(X/Y/H) is determined. During the third sweep, it looks for the closest target at (X/Y/H)"1" + delta(X/Y/H). That will be (X/Y/H)"2", and the difference from (X/Y/H)"1" is again delta(X/Y/H). etc...
According to the manual, the target and the missile where tracked by different antennas (1/2), and with ABC-I only - in (T/T)...
Let's imagine a situation of switching from 1/2 to T/T, if the missile is beyond the ABC-I diagram, could we loss a missile, and is such changing in methods of guidance is possible at all?
According to the manual, the target and the missile where tracked by different antennas (1/2), and with ABC-I only - in (T/T)...
Let's imagine a situation of switching from 1/2 to T/T, if the missile is beyond the ABC-I diagram, could we loss a missile, and is such changing in methods of guidance is possible at all?
Not exactly.
The target is always tracked by the AVS-I antenna. Right after the launch, the missile is tracked by the AVS-II antenna system, in both (1/2, 3T) guidance methods.
During 1/2 guidance method, the missile is kept tracked by the AVS-II till hit. With 3T, if the missile is reached the AVS-I beam, than its guidance is switched from AVS-II to AVS-I, and this is indicated by the NAVED light. (manual page 43/5)
With 3T, if the missile is reached the AVS-I beam, than its guidance is switched from AVS-II to AVS-I, and this is indicated by the NAVED light. (manual page 43/5)
So, if we switch from 1/2 to t/t, it will change the antennas only when missiles goes in AVS-I beam... But what about the opposite?
With 3T, if the missile is reached the AVS-I beam, than its guidance is switched from AVS-II to AVS-I, and this is indicated by the NAVED light. (manual page 43/5)
So, if we switch from 1/2 to t/t, it will change the antennas only when missiles goes in AVS-I beam... But what about the opposite?
The AVS-II is always tracking the missile, just the AVS-I is used for better resolution in case of 3T. In real life, switching between method 3T to 1/2 would probably mean the loosing of the missile...
In the KRUG manual it is stated, that the Commander choose between the 3T* or 1/2 guidance method before launch, and it is forbidden to change it during missile flight.
* please use 3T and 1/2 guidance methods when discussing the KRUG. (not T/T and UPR)
In the KRUG manual it is stated, that the Commander choose between the 3T* or 1/2 guidance method before launch, and it is forbidden to change it during missile flight.
OK, that's fine...
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
* please use 3T and 1/2 guidance methods when discussing the KRUG. (not T/T and UPR)
OK, I do, but 3T and T/T is the same ("trehtochka" - "three points" or "3 points")
Guys, it looks like the transmitting antennae of SA-4 and SA-8 are on the same principle - they have a reflector (or some kind of filter) in front of transmitter antenna.....
Guys, it looks like the transmitting antennae of SA-4 and SA-8 are on the same principle - they have a reflector (or some kind of filter) in front of transmitter antenna.....
For SA-8b it is truth that it is reflector because of one transmitting /receiving antenna.
It is a filter, I am not sure whether it is a some kind of polarizer (received signal has different polarization) or some band pass or so on. Anyways one antenna for transmit/receive is also true for other systems (except for Vega and PODSVET mode at Volkhov and tracking mode of Neva). Switching is done in other ways (for example switching within waveguide with a special "switch").
It is a filter, I am not sure whether it is a some kind of polarizer (received signal has different polarization) or some band pass or so on. Anyways one antenna for transmit/receive is also true for other systems (except for Vega and PODSVET mode at Volkhov and tracking mode of Neva). Switching is done in other ways (for example switching within waveguide with a special "switch").
For OSA also works polarizing the receiving signals !
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 07/21/1401:22 AM
Question about the range: A book I'm reading (and Wikipedia (I know, crap source)) lists the range of the SA-4 as being almost 800km). What's up with that, is there any truth to it? Different version than the one in SAM sim, or just straight off the walls wrong?
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 07/21/1411:56 AM
Ah yes, so it does. However, the book says "An example of a ramjet powered SAM was the Krug missile (NATO reporting name SA-4) of the former Soviet Union. The use of a ramjet gave the Krug an exceptionally long operational range - almost 800km!"
So, you're probably gonna want to steer well clear of "Surface-to-Air Missiles: Part of the Weapons of War Series" by Andrew May. Damn Wikipedia scientist is what he appears to be.
The 1S12 SOC (Long Track) tracks the target similarly as the modern digital radars (ST-68U [Tin Shield]) do, just they do it for several targets parallel.
It first measures the (X/Y/H)"0" coordinate of a target, than during the next sweep, finds the closest target to that coordinate. This will be the (X/Y/H)"1" coordinate. With a quick math, delta(X/Y/H) is determined. During the third sweep, it looks for the closest target at (X/Y/H)"1" + delta(X/Y/H). That will be (X/Y/H)"2", and the difference from (X/Y/H)"1" is again delta(X/Y/H). etc...
If "Long Track" is a 3D radar, why they're using height-finders?
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/19/1406:36 AM
Maybe for close high altitude targets outside the beam of the aquisition radar? And maybe they need to know the height of targets for distribution of target data to other units so the position and info can be plotted on the plotting board.
Long track will not tell you how high the target is.
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/19/1409:58 AM
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
The 1S12 SOC (Long Track) tracks the target similarly as the modern digital radars (ST-68U [Tin Shield]) do, just they do it for several targets parallel.
It first measures the (X/Y/H)"0" coordinate of a target, than during the next sweep, finds the closest target to that coordinate. This will be the (X/Y/H)"1" coordinate. With a quick math, delta(X/Y/H) is determined. During the third sweep, it looks for the closest target at (X/Y/H)"1" + delta(X/Y/H). That will be (X/Y/H)"2", and the difference from (X/Y/H)"1" is again delta(X/Y/H). etc...
If "Long Track" is a 3D radar, why they're using height-finders?
"Long Track" means two* radar types, and non of these are 3D in today sense**.
1RL128 P40 - with height finder, used for fighter guidance, and at SAM Brigade level.
1S12 SOC - without height finder, used at KRUG/KUB battalion level.
*easy way to differentiate between these sets from the outside, is to count vertical stiffeners in the antenna. P40 has 9, while the SOC has 14.
**SOC has azimuth, range, and coarse elevation information. For the SNR with elevation scanning it is enough, for a successful fighter guidance it is not.
Hi! Here're some pictures I took today during the "day of tanks" in Milovice (Czech). Krug is completely dead (except the positioning motors of the radar antenna) so far however I've managed to start up the turbine generator in Kub 2K12 TEL (2P25) so I'll try to take a video once I figure out how to move the platform. And maybe I'll power up the Krug from it so we can lift up the rockets. Obviously both the rockets and the radar parts were legally demilitarized but still all the panels lit will look great and the noise from the fans inside is quite impressive as well. It's really a great piece of a historical machine and I'm more and more amazed while discovering how all its systems woked.
time has passed and the next "day of tanks" at Tankodrom Milovice is coming up. It's going to take place on the last Saturday of the month (29.8.2015) and of course the Krug won't be left in the garage. In case someone was somewhere near Prague, it's an ideal opportunity to take a look. Of course we still don't have a power source so it's only a static display but still it's pretty interesting. Our efforts are unending though so I'm sure we'll make some more progress in the future. Here're some pictures. I'm happy to say that we're finally getting somewhere with the renovation of this piece of technique. We've been focusing on the 2P24 lately as we'd like to paint it (it's very rusty) and make the elevation and azimuth systems moving. In order to do that we need to repair hydraulic actuators which I'm working on now.
Also I've obtained some documentation lately so in case somebody had a question I'm happy to look the answer up.
Hi again. Here're some pictures from an event we recently had and the 2P24 was involved. Also I have a video but it was filmed from the 2P24's commander's seat so you can't actually see much of it in it.:)
Hopefully we'll get some actual work done as spring develops. In summer I'm planning on starting up the gas turbine generator in 1S32.
Hi. So I'm here to report some progress for those who are interested. Just recently we managed to get the hydraulic counterbalance system (on 2P24) working, luckily the whole automatic still works so it wasn't such a big deal in the end. I took a video of operation. Unfortunately the camera recording the actuator wasn't on so I only have pictures. Hopefully I'll take a better video next time. If I feel like unscrewing 20 screws while taking off the covering.... So here it is. The purpose of the system is to balance the weight of ty rocket by hydraulic pressure (around 12MPa). In the first picture you can see the whole setup (there are two total - one for each rocket). The green big thing at the top is an accumulator, under it there is a hydraulic pump and it's motor and there is an oil tank at the left corner. The second picture shows the piston of the pneumatic accumulator when unpressurized and the last picture when it's pressurized (fully in). The accumulator also serves as the pressure switch (microswitches on the piston itself). And finaly a video of the operator's panel during the operation. The pump takes around 300A of current while near the end of the cycle, that's why only one pump can run at the time. This part of the system doesn't need the AC supply so it works only from batteries (27V starting power source in our case).
Hi. So I'm here to report some progress for those who are interested. Just recently we managed to get the hydraulic counterbalance system (on 2P24) working, luckily the whole automatic still works so it wasn't such a big deal in the end. I took a video of operation. Unfortunately the camera recording the actuator wasn't on so I only have pictures. Hopefully I'll take a better video next time. If I feel like unscrewing 20 screws while taking off the covering.... So here it is. The purpose of the system is to balance the weight of ty rocket by hydraulic pressure (around 12MPa). In the first picture you can see the whole setup (there are two total - one for each rocket). The green big thing at the top is an accumulator, under it there is a hydraulic pump and it's motor and there is an oil tank at the left corner. The second picture shows the piston of the pneumatic accumulator when unpressurized and the last picture when it's pressurized (fully in). The accumulator also serves as the pressure switch (microswitches on the piston itself). And finaly a video of the operator's panel during the operation. The pump takes around 300A of current while near the end of the cycle, that's why only one pump can run at the time. This part of the system doesn't need the AC supply so it works only from batteries (27V starting power source in our case).
Hi again all those interested in the Krug. So as promised, I started up the turbine generator. So far I have to control the valves manually since the control block is missing but I'm in a process of developing it's supplement. Also I managed to power up some instruments inside (yeah, almost in the exact way like it's in the sam sim:)) but unfortunatelly I didn't have time to properly try what's working and what isn't.... Also the antenna block isnt't connected at all. I'll try to bring some of the systems to life when we manage to acquire a diesel 400Hz generator which is quiter and much more fuel efficient... Check out a short video I made! https://youtu.be/XEh6Z8mzdHk
In the manual for Krug there are information about missile types: 3M8, 3M8M1, 3M8M2 and 3M8M3. Does variant 3M8M exists too and with what capabilities?
Hi again all those interested in the Krug. So as promised, I started up the turbine generator. So far I have to control the valves manually since the control block is missing but I'm in a process of developing it's supplement. Also I managed to power up some instruments inside (yeah, almost in the exact way like it's in the sam sim:)) but unfortunatelly I didn't have time to properly try what's working and what isn't.... Also the antenna block isnt't connected at all. I'll try to bring some of the systems to life when we manage to acquire a diesel 400Hz generator which is quiter and much more fuel efficient... Check out a short video I made! https://youtu.be/XEh6Z8mzdHk
and some pictures here..
What would be cool is if you could wire it into samsim somehow. I.E. play Samsim on your real Pat Hand.
Actually there's a device (don't know the code by heart) which allows you to simulate the target signals for training purposes. We don't have it though. Another device was used on 2P24s to simulate rockets.
Hi again. I have some offtopic here. We didn't have much time to work on our hobby during the winter but I still have some news. After a long time, we managed to acquire a power generator for Krug (and Kub). Actually two of them. The first is a 40kVA diesel generator, which is already working and the second one is a 30kVA rotary converter (electrical motor powered from the grid rotates 400Hz generator). So I'm almost ready to finally start the job... I'm especially excited about powering up the 2P24, because since its turbine isn't operational yet, I never had it powered..
Here're some pictures:
Diesel generator:
Rotary converter:
By the way, if someone was near Prague, both Krug and Kub will be on display at Tankodrom Milovice on 29th of April. I'll start the turbine on request.
Hi, so I'm here again to report some progress. Today I managed to turn on the rotary converter VPL-30 to power up some basic systems of both 1S32 and 2P24. Still waiting for a better power plug because now I'm limited with maximum power to let's say 15kW which isn't much but still it's interesting. You can take a look here how the VPL runs. Basic power-up of 1S32 was a success, although many systems are out of order. Which I'm going to work on. Here's a short video of how it went. Didn't really have time to film but I can tell that the computer is in a pretty good shape. On the other end some referential voltages are missing so I'll have to go through the power blocks... Oh well. Also I have some pictures of the tubes glowing. :p
As for the 2P24, it was even more interesting. I was able to turn on the original amplidynes which were in fact powering the motors and moving the rocket platform. Although I made some mistakes which resulted in some jerky movement, I think it'll work. Next time I'm going to make a video showing how to power up the 2P24. :))
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/28/1708:21 AM
Doesn't Col. Stoykov (or someone else for that matter) have some documentation for Krug? I'm desperately looking for schematics of 1S32. I have those for 2P24. Without it it's really hard and time consuming to move forward. That's why I got the 2P24 almost fully operational and 1S32 lies in the shadow...
Doesn't Col. Stoykov (or someone else for that matter) have some documentation for Krug? I'm desperately looking for schematics of 1S32. I have those for 2P24. Without it it's really hard and time consuming to move forward. That's why I got the 2P24 almost fully operational and 1S32 lies in the shadow...
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/29/1709:09 AM
Thank you. I can offer some Czech documentation in return. Or an access to both 1S32 and 2P24. This offer applies for anyone here, if you happen to be near Prague.:) Also I created this youtube channel for our Krug.
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/29/1710:09 AM
Originally Posted by Jarda1S32
Thank you. I can offer some Czech documentation in return. Or an access to both 1S32 and 2P24. This offer applies for anyone here, if you happen to be near Prague.:) Also I created this youtube channel for our Krug.
BTW, do you have an FB account? (you or your Krug)?
Can a 3M8M Krug missile be launched ballisticaly with no guidance (lets say in case of emergency), like the Kub missile can? Can a 3M8M missile be launched from 2P24M if the launch command does not execute from 1S32M?
The second question is probably not without 1S32 in any way, everything is interconnected... Why?
It is interesting to me. I used to be, among other duties, commander of PU 2P25M2 in the Kub regiment. It is possible to launch a missile from PU if the command wont go through from SURN (Kub missile system). So...the 1S32 commander presses "PUSK", (lets say the "PUSK" button is stuck or broken or....) and the command does not go through, can missile be launched from PU 2P24M?
Also. does anyone have a scheme or pictures or video from inside the PU 2P24M so that we can see the operator work place and operators command control deck?
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 08/05/2010:13 AM
Originally Posted by Kub operator
Originally Posted by Jammer5236
The second question is probably not without 1S32 in any way, everything is interconnected... Why?
It is interesting to me. I used to be, among other duties, commander of PU 2P25M2 in the Kub regiment. It is possible to launch a missile from PU if the command wont go through from SURN (Kub missile system). So...the 1S32 commander presses "PUSK", (lets say the "PUSK" button is stuck or broken or....) and the command does not go through, can missile be launched from PU 2P24M?
Also. does anyone have a scheme or pictures or video from inside the PU 2P24M so that we can see the operator work place and operators command control deck?
Thanks in advance....
It is logical to be in that way... Try to contact this guy - Jarda1S32, he could help!
Strange behavior of the circle in the Vietnamese scenario: when capturing some aircraft with a given noise interference during their "dive"to the ground, the range scale goes to the right until it stops at a given range (the target is closed by interference), the bottom line is that the "dive" in height is displayed as a sharp departure into the Range...When hitting a target (with the same natural behavior, the target disappears)is this correct or not?( I know that the target parameters can be viewed via DHV) All this creates an incomprehensible situation with the defeat of the target)) Are there any people here who have played Vietnamese scripts on it? Sorry for google translate.
Just if he dives sharply it should be displayed on the DHV only in height but not in range on K81-8 (the k81-8 range Indicator should remain unchanged at this moment IMHO just seems more logical: just like that, it's impossible to fly from 40 km range to 110 in 3 seconds)) unless there's a warp drive)))
Just if he dives sharply it should be displayed on the DHV only in height but not in range on K81-8 (the k81-8 range Indicator should remain unchanged at this moment IMHO just seems more logical: just like that, it's impossible to fly from 40 km range to 110 in 3 seconds)) unless there's a warp drive)))
When the range is not known, the system calculated it by simple trigonometry. Thus if you put range/height at given elevation angle it would calculate it according that change....
Well, in general, it is so clear how it works... And another question: why when you turn on the " ПИ " mode after the launch of the rocket, the station switches to continuous illumination of the target? Although "ПИ" mode is enabled, shouldn't it light up periodically? (the accuracy drops accordingly, and the missile may not hit at all) is this how it should be? I apologize for being a little annoying, only this simulator, except for this forum, there is no one else to ask...
Well, in general, it is so clear how it works... And another question: why when you turn on the " ПИ " mode after the launch of the rocket, the station switches to continuous illumination of the target? Although "ПИ" mode is enabled, shouldn't it light up periodically? (the accuracy drops accordingly, and the missile may not hit at all) is this how it should be? I apologize for being a little annoying, only this simulator, except for this forum, there is no one else to ask...
You're not annoying at all.. Those modes are working before missile starts... As in SA-2/3/8 after launch you need to transmit a steering commands to missile anyway.... So EMCON is gone and no need to blink....
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 01/13/2108:51 AM
It's hard to identify targets... EVERYTHING IS COVERED BY JAMMING!!)) Well, maybe there will be targets without jamming, but probably you will not have time to fire at them))))... ))
1) stealth targets are visible as a dot yes from a distance (21-17 km) when tracked the target is visible, but it seems that the radar sees it, and the missile does not see it(I read the instructions, I know that the missile is controlled by commands from the SNR)it self-destructs, even if the target is visible and in the tracked (error?): as it approaches, it disappears, although it should not! rather the opposite...(there is nothing more effective than C-125..) IMHO... 2)noise jamming F-111... When the target is attacked, it is impossible to hit it... with their speed...(Libyan second scenario) 3)SOC shows noise jamming in the SM / DM range... When playing for the С-75МК \ M3, noise jamming occurs only in the SM-range (bug?) when launching a missile according to the Libyan scenario on an SR-71 aircraft, the aircraft gains altitude when launching...(?) although the shooting was conducted without the transmitter turned on, it is not clear what the range is? (in the С-75, only the DM jamming is visible, here the target puts the noise jamming in two bands) or the height? 4)in some scenarios, it is impossible to shoot down anyone at all... When such complexes were included in the scenarios, were they tested on these scenarios?(I understand, of course, that there is no 100% chance of knocking everything)) Maybe I'm doing something wrong... are there any ways?)) 5)In the Balkan scenarios, the rocket always goes to the "decoy"... Isn't it disposable? When tracking such a target, the range screen "flashes": both the target and the "decoy" are visible, it would seem that the range is set and the target is visible, but still the missile hits the "decoy"! 6) Some aircraft causing noise jamming are only visible when the transmitter is turned on. (Libyan and Balkan scenarios)
It's all about the "Круг", I don't know yet whether this is correct or not in relation to the "Круг". Thank you in advance Sorry for the translation.... I hope that it will be clear...
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/13/2106:29 AM
Originally Posted by Jammer5236
A few more questions about "Круг":
1) stealth targets are visible as a dot yes from a distance (21-17 km) when tracked the target is visible, but it seems that the radar sees it, and the missile does not see it(I read the instructions, I know that the missile is controlled by commands from the SNR)it self-destructs, even if the target is visible and in the tracked (error?): as it approaches, it disappears, although it should not! rather the opposite...(there is nothing more effective than C-125..) IMHO...
which mission is that>?
Quote
2)noise jamming F-111... When the target is attacked, it is impossible to hit it... with their speed...(Libyan second scenario)
some AAR/3D AAR?
Quote
3)SOC shows noise jamming in the SM / DM range... When playing for the С-75МК \ M3, noise jamming occurs only in the SM-range (bug?) when launching a missile according to the Libyan scenario on an SR-71 aircraft, the aircraft gains altitude when launching...(?) although the shooting was conducted without the transmitter turned on, it is not clear what the range is? (in the С-75, only the DM jamming is visible, here the target puts the noise jamming in two bands) or the height?
Because P-18 is in meter length wave band.... "Long track" is in decimeter length wave band.... SR-71 does not change altitude.... you just lost the range measurement, so the system starts calculate trigonometricaly the height of the target based on last known distance to it (before jamming)... Same as SA-2...
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4)in some scenarios, it is impossible to shoot down anyone at all... When such complexes were included in the scenarios, were they tested on these scenarios?(I understand, of course, that there is no 100% chance of knocking everything)) Maybe I'm doing something wrong... are there any ways?))
Be more specific...
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5)In the Balkan scenarios, the rocket always goes to the "decoy"... Isn't it disposable? When tracking such a target, the range screen "flashes": both the target and the "decoy" are visible, it would seem that the range is set and the target is visible, but still the missile hits the "decoy"!
Try to attack only targets in a head-on direction, thus the missile's radiofuse must be triggered by the real target.... I'll check it too, but not sure could I have time till Monday, as I need to travel now...
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6) Some aircraft causing noise jamming are only visible when the transmitter is turned on. (Libyan and Balkan scenarios)
That's correct... Jammers only worked under enemy transmission, thus denying enemy of passive noise jamming tracking of the target (like in LB II)....
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/13/2108:59 AM
1)ashuluk firing range,and first serbian scenario. 4)Vietnam scenarios:SR-71 bomb damage assessment one,two, Lybia scenarios:SR-71 bomb damage assessment,F-111 strike(second scenario) 5,2)here is AAR only here and the Libyan scenario and Serbian, 3D AAR I attach for some reason I can not... 3,6)thank you for your answers.
Well, have in mind, that success is depending about the position of your site. Also over Hanoi, SR-71 is in a turn, so your destruction zone is changing... My personal advice about Vietnam is to launch your missile slightly before point of impact got inside the destruction zone.... In Libya SR-71 didn't ever got near enough to be killed.... Have in mind that those a real situation, not an arcade game....
Cannot comment about F-111, gotta try it...
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5,2)here is AAR only here and the Libyan scenario and Serbian, 3D AAR I attach for some reason I can not...
You could, if you change .gpx to .txt.... Or just upload them anywhere... like mediafire.com.
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3,6)thank you for your answers.
Hpasp is much better in that... Hope I could help too...
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/14/2109:23 AM
1)Maybe... There are simply no other options: even with the external target designation of the F-111 visible at a minimum distance (due to its height), there was only one option left for launching the missile, to shoot after it through the T\T method. 2)Then I don't know either... 3)I used external target designation to detect it, in manual search it is not visible at all.
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/15/2109:15 AM
Cool.... I did not know that you can shoot at it and hit it through 1 \ 2, I always switched to T\T, "ПA" and switched the fuse to "Ш.П." and never hit it.... You have a sooo big miss... But I got even more)) In general, I wonder why this is so? The SNR does not know the range to the target, it must be set manually.... I tried to shoot according to your method: everything works out...
Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/15/2111:12 AM
Originally Posted by Jammer5236
In general, the earlier I fire the missile, the higher the chance of hitting the SR-71.... I see...
It must work with 3T also.... Just have in mind that when SR-71 came over Hanoi, it goes toward you when turning... (just watch the screen during engagement)...
How many times have I tried to repeat, nothing comes out... The only thing is, if you change the range \ altitude, the probability of a near miss \ hit increases (140 m, 68 m....) into the decoy or even fly with the fuse on "Ш.П.".There is some trick with switching the transmitter (I did it this way) "АНТ."..... I feel like I'm on the right way. So the question is removed))
How many times have I tried to repeat, nothing comes out... The only thing is, if you change the range \ altitude, the probability of a near miss \ hit increases (140 m, 68 m....) into the decoy or even fly with the fuse on "Ш.П.".There is some trick with switching the transmitter (I did it this way) "АНТ."..... I feel like I'm on the right way. So the question is removed))
I do not get the point.... It is hard in OAF with any system...
With "Двина" in the simulator, this is done very simply: the target is usually closed by noise jamming, but there is a trick: after tracking for a few seconds, it is enough to turn on/off the emission, and the target with the decoy is visible on the indicator for a while, and then they are closed by noise jamming, but the range to them is already visible and, thus, you can set the range to the target continuously until it is hit by the first missile... But this does not happen with the "Круг".... although again, as I said, the range indicator is "flashing", and the target and the decoy are visible when the is turned on, but you always hit the decoy. Although you do about the same thing....
With "Двина" in the simulator, this is done very simply: the target is usually closed by noise jamming, but there is a trick: after tracking for a few seconds, it is enough to turn on/off the emission, and the target with the decoy is visible on the indicator for a while, and then they are closed by noise jamming, but the range to them is already visible and, thus, you can set the range to the target continuously until it is hit by the first missile... But this does not happen with the "Круг".... although again, as I said, the range indicator is "flashing", and the target and the decoy are visible when the is turned on, but you always hit the decoy. Although you do about the same thing....