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Re: SAM Simulator

Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/09/11 10:52 PM

Was browsing for more info on the elusive SA-4/3M8M3, instead I found these:

http://www.fortifikace.net/pov_pvos_skupina_vega.html
http://www.fortifikace.net/pov_pvos_skupina_vega_rapotice.html

Also, I'd be very interested in any information you could provide about the SA-4, such as the reference sites you used while creating the system. I've been unsuccessful so far in finding any truly in-depth information regarding the SA-4, or the 3M8M3.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/10/11 07:16 AM

The best sites, that I found, are at the bottom of the SAMSIM homepage.
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

The pictures were shot at Hungary:

Hungarian Air Defense Museum, Zsmbk (Volhov, Neva, 1S12 Long Track)
http://legvedelmimuzeum.hu/en.html

12. Arrabona Air Defense Regiment, Gyor (1S32 KRUG)
http://www.raketaezred.hu/

Army History Museum and Park, Kecel (Vega, Shilka)
http://www.museum.hu/museum/index_en.php?ID=961

About the SA4, I got the usual (~1500 pages of) Hungarian language manuals...


Posted By: PLCC

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/10/11 07:46 AM

Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
http://www.fortifikace.net/pov_pvos_skupina_vega_rapotice.html


This page contains a link to an interesting video about that S-200 site: http://www.fortifikace.net/soubory/rapotice_video.mp4.

Can anybody identify the instrument that appears at 2:50?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/10/11 09:33 AM

Certainly.
hahaha

That is the leftmost round instrument of the K9 cabin. (It is not simulated)
In this cabin, the commander of the site were guided the firing batteries.



Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/10/11 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
About the SA4, I got the usual (~1500 pages of) Hungarian language manuals...


Ugh.. It's always a language I can't read, lol. After spending a few more hours Google diving, I'm really surprised by the lack of interesting information. It seems like every site I find that actually mentions the 2K11-M1/SA-4 just repeats what all the others say. And so far the only internal images I've found are pictures taken by someone who thought it'd be great to place a massive watermark of his email address right through the middle. Pretty sad as they're up close pictures of some of the station panels..

I am however rather pleased with some of the pictures I found of the missile, a performance chart, and pictures showing how the radar deploys/stows.

Quote:






Also, two new questions. First, after the initial launch of the missile, are the solid fuel boosters ripped off of the 3M8M3 missile, or is there a system to release them? Secondly, what does 1 do?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/10/11 09:36 AM

This page contains a link to an interesting video about that S-200 site:
http://www.fortifikace.net/soubory/rapotice_video.mp4

Extremely good find!!!
Everybody should watch it.
thumbsup
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/10/11 09:48 AM

1, SNR Frequency selector switch.
You can find the same at the Volhov "Z" panel.

Usually guarded so one frequency was used in peacetime, and another in wartime.
(In case the enemy listens before the hostilities begun.)
Posted By: NaiseFail

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/10/11 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
1, SNR Frequency selector switch.
You can find the same at the Volhov "Z" panel.

Usually guarded so one frequency was used in peacetime, and another in wartime.
(In case the enemy listens before the hostilities begun.)

That's a pretty good trick. Does the Gammon have that ability too?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: SAM Simulator - 02/10/11 06:03 PM

All the WarPact, (and I assume) that Western systems were capable of it.
(You need the capability to tune your frequency away, if you are close to another similar system.)
Posted By: Hpasp

2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 08/16/12 09:49 AM

Lets discuss 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) specific issues here...
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 08/21/12 07:10 PM

For what purpose is this button?

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 08/23/12 12:42 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
For what purpose is this button?

Click to reveal..



That is a three state "h - delta h" selector.
Used during initial system check.
Should be in the middle setting during battle.

So its wrong in the sim.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/04/12 12:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Lieste
Is a Krug 'engagement' really one missile though? ~ I had the impression (not confirmed by checking the manuals I must admit) that almost all fired 2-3 missiles per target.

With 2 rounds for the engagement, the equivalent SSKP is 83% & within the range of the other missiles.

Obviously in the 'real world' nothing like this accuracy should be expected from any of these systems, especially if you have dense jamming and ARM considerations that might force dropping track, plus manoeuvring fighter targets.


Manual describes different cases:

Using one 3M8M3 missile...
... against a 6g maneuvering target, you have 50~90% hit probability.
... against a less than 5g maneuvering target, you have at least 75% hit probability.
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/05/12 07:36 PM

Picture
Picture2

It is from this site:
http://pilot.strizhi.info/2006/12/16/1463

Some memories:

Quote:
On Emba shot on a "Virage" - РМ on the basis of ЗМ8. Shot also against reflector (parachute) and against(La-17) earlier.
Here such event. In 1985 shot on "Virage". On the first target any of 9 stations of crew has not track succesfuly. Shooting have stopped - crews - couple of weeks training. As then it turned out - in РМ have not put an angular reflector - no one knew is it on purpose or not..
After two weeks on two targets spent 7 rockets.
I.e. reflection 3М8 is not enough for this complex...


From here:
http://forums.airbase.ru/2005/03/t32120,7--pochemu-zrk-krug-ne-postavlyalsya-na-eksport.html
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/08/12 08:23 PM

Is it nnormal, when the target is in full tracking and switch off the transmitter - to have on display killing zones and point of impact?
Also, still when SNR is hit, the game terminated (that was reported as a bug by someone before...
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/09/12 07:23 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Is it nnormal, when the target is in full tracking and switch off the transmitter - to have on display killing zones and point of impact?


Yes, that is from the analogue computer. (used first time in the KRUG)

Originally Posted By: piston79
Also, still when SNR is hit, the game terminated (that was reported as a bug by someone before...


That is, how it was designed.

If a KRUG SNR is hit, that is also terminal for its crew.
(You are sitting right below the antenna)
Posted By: max2012

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/09/12 08:00 PM


Question at KRUG minimum target height of 150 meters.

The report will show here how is it 125 meters hit the Tomahawk!

Click to reveal..


Asuluk training ground.

Practice target:
LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk

2K11 KRUG-M1


00:10, Practice target LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk launched

+++++++++++++++++
00:00:20, SNR ON AIR


00:03:02, Missile launched
Target distance: 28km
Target azimuth: 70
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 125m
Missile guidance method: TT (Three Point)


00:03:32, Missile exploded
Practice target LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk killed by SAM. (miss distance: 14m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 22sec


Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/19/12 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By: max2012

Question at KRUG minimum target height of 150 meters.

The report will show here how is it 125 meters hit the Tomahawk!

Click to reveal..


Asuluk training ground.

Practice target:
LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk

2K11 KRUG-M1


00:10, Practice target LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk launched

+++++++++++++++++
00:00:20, SNR ON AIR


00:03:02, Missile launched
Target distance: 28km
Target azimuth: 70
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 125m
Missile guidance method: TT (Three Point)


00:03:32, Missile exploded
Practice target LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk killed by SAM. (miss distance: 14m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 22sec




No. This was the target altitude at missile launch, not at missile impact.

00:03:02, Missile launched
Target altitude: 125m
Posted By: max2012

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/20/12 02:24 PM



I realized then show the height of target during missile launch.

And you can make in the report, has been shown to target height, after the destruction of the goal?

A6 can knock KRUG, A6 flying at an altitude of 100 meters?

Tornado can also KRUG
Posted By: max2012

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/20/12 02:28 PM

I'll try to knock Tornado and A6 with KRUG

If I succeed, then most error

Because the minimum height destroys targets in KRUG only 150 meters

Tornado aircraft target flying at an altitude of 100 meters, and the A6 is also in the simulator.

Posted By: Mdore

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/03/12 11:10 AM

Is it supposed to be impossible to hit the A-4 during training with the SA-4?

Always shortly after launch my missiles disappear. I guess hitting the ground? The manual says minimum target altitude is 300m, and I always launch when the target altitude is 600-1000m, but still they disappear.

Am I doing something wrong?
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/03/12 02:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Mdore
Is it supposed to be impossible to hit the A-4 during training with the SA-4?

Always shortly after launch my missiles disappear. I guess hitting the ground? The manual says minimum target altitude is 300m, and I always launch when the target altitude is 600-1000m, but still they disappear.

Am I doing something wrong?


Use T/T guidance mode...Also low level killing envelope is quite small (wait 'till point of impact reaches ~12 km). It is nice when has some questions about SIM to post at least both AAR-s....
Posted By: farokh

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/20/12 02:41 PM

i have some question about it:

1. why sa-4 ganef retire from sevis ? of course u talk about that but i forget it biggrin
2. why this system do not sent to other country ? no iran no iraq ... just serveral country
3. sa-4 missile can how many keep G force on air ? 10G ? 12G ? 14G?
4. why when i launched sa-4 and check 3daar ... missile like a crazy rocket going down and going up ?

br
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/20/12 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: milang
i have some question about it:

1. why sa-4 ganef retire from sevis ? of course u talk about that but i forget it biggrin
2. why this system do not sent to other country ? no iran no iraq ... just serveral country
3. sa-4 missile can how many keep G force on air ? 10G ? 12G ? 14G?
4. why when i launched sa-4 and check 3daar ... missile like a crazy rocket going down and going up ?

br


1,2 I think that these were discussed earlier.

The main purpose of fielding the KRUG Brigade (SA-4B) was to defend the WarPact Army of Front SCUD (SS-1C) Brigade armed with nuclear weapons.


As no nuclear tipped SCUD (SS-1C) was exported outside the WarPact, there was no point to export its air defense.

When Hungary exited the WarPact, all nuclear warheads of our SCUD missiles were shipped back to Russia.



As Hungary never had any conventional warhead for the SCUD system, the SCUDs were scrapped, with its air defense few years after.

3, please read the manual.
Posted By: max2012

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/21/12 12:30 AM


Rocket 3M8M3 the minimum allowable height of 150 meters.

The documentation is written!
Posted By: max2012

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/21/12 12:32 AM


Where did the user "Mdore" has found 300 meters
Posted By: Mdore

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/21/12 05:15 AM

Originally Posted By: max2012

Where did the user "Mdore" has found 300 meters


From the manual

"Selecting missile guidance method
Preparations for Shooting using 3m (Three Point) guidance method
(Push the X button to call up the Commanders and Angle Officers panels)
If the target parameters are in the green zone, (H 300m-16km, V<=330m/s) the three-
point guidance method is selected.

...

Preparations for Shooting using 1&#8260;2 (Half-Lead) guidance method
(Push the X button to call up the Commanders and Angle Officers panels)
If the target parameters are in the green zone, (H 300m-24.5km, V<=800m/s) the half-
lead guidance method can be selected."
Posted By: max2012

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/21/12 11:25 AM


It then tell me here?

Posted By: max2012

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/21/12 11:27 AM


It is not clear there's 300 meters, 150 meters here!
Posted By: max2012

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/21/12 11:30 AM


A4 objective without problems should, every missile can.
Posted By: max2012

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/21/12 11:40 AM


Here you just discussed this.

I didn't know then how come here 150 meters 300 meters ...

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 01/04/13 12:52 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

When the target is above the the SNR, than several functions could return 0, so this issue should be investigated more.


I believe that when target goes out of P-40's detection, "Pat Hand" just must stop trackin it (when no range or angle track was established0, and when it appears again, should be reaquired with the joystick on p-40 and then send to "Pat hand'....

It is a quite an interesting issue how "Long track" is autotracking targets... confused


The 1S12 SOC (Long Track) tracks the target similarly as the modern digital radars (ST-68U [Tin Shield]) do, just they do it for several targets parallel.



It first measures the (X/Y/H)"0" coordinate of a target, than during the next sweep, finds the closest target to that coordinate.
This will be the (X/Y/H)"1" coordinate. With a quick math, delta(X/Y/H) is determined.
During the third sweep, it looks for the closest target at (X/Y/H)"1" + delta(X/Y/H).
That will be (X/Y/H)"2", and the difference from (X/Y/H)"1" is again delta(X/Y/H).
etc...
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/18/13 07:46 PM

According to the manual, the target and the missile where tracked by different antennas (1/2), and with ABC-I only - in (T/T)...

Let's imagine a situation of switching from 1/2 to T/T, if the missile is beyond the ABC-I diagram, could we loss a missile, and is such changing in methods of guidance is possible at all? screwy
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/18/13 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
According to the manual, the target and the missile where tracked by different antennas (1/2), and with ABC-I only - in (T/T)...

Let's imagine a situation of switching from 1/2 to T/T, if the missile is beyond the ABC-I diagram, could we loss a missile, and is such changing in methods of guidance is possible at all? screwy


Not exactly.

The target is always tracked by the AVS-I antenna.
Right after the launch, the missile is tracked by the AVS-II antenna system, in both (1/2, 3T) guidance methods.

During 1/2 guidance method, the missile is kept tracked by the AVS-II till hit.
With 3T, if the missile is reached the AVS-I beam, than its guidance is switched from AVS-II to AVS-I, and this is indicated by the NAVED light. (manual page 43/5)
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/18/13 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

With 3T, if the missile is reached the AVS-I beam, than its guidance is switched from AVS-II to AVS-I, and this is indicated by the NAVED light. (manual page 43/5)


So, if we switch from 1/2 to t/t, it will change the antennas only when missiles goes in AVS-I beam... But what about the opposite? wink
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/18/13 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

With 3T, if the missile is reached the AVS-I beam, than its guidance is switched from AVS-II to AVS-I, and this is indicated by the NAVED light. (manual page 43/5)


So, if we switch from 1/2 to t/t, it will change the antennas only when missiles goes in AVS-I beam... But what about the opposite? wink


The AVS-II is always tracking the missile, just the AVS-I is used for better resolution in case of 3T.
In real life, switching between method 3T to 1/2 would probably mean the loosing of the missile...

In the KRUG manual it is stated, that the Commander choose between the 3T* or 1/2 guidance method before launch, and it is forbidden to change it during missile flight.

* please use 3T and 1/2 guidance methods when discussing the KRUG. (not T/T and UPR)
thumbsup
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/19/13 07:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

In the KRUG manual it is stated, that the Commander choose between the 3T* or 1/2 guidance method before launch, and it is forbidden to change it during missile flight.


OK, that's fine...

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
* please use 3T and 1/2 guidance methods when discussing the KRUG. (not T/T and UPR)
thumbsup


OK, I do, but 3T and T/T is the same ("trehtochka" - "three points" or "3 points")
Posted By: farokh

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/19/13 07:43 PM

excuse me guys.. what different between 3T and T/T ? confused
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/19/13 09:03 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79

OK, I do, but 3T and T/T is the same ("trehtochka" - "three points" or "3 points")


Correct.

Just use the correct name for the system.
KRUG use 1/2 or 3T guidance methods.
Osa will use the T/T or the Fi method.
thumbsup
Posted By: farokh

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/20/13 12:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Osa will use the T/T or the Fi method.
thumbsup


what is the FI mode ? this method usually use for IR tracking?
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/05/13 05:43 PM

Posted By: farokh

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 07/20/13 08:16 PM

in manual pdf hpasp do not wrote about sustainer speed !

hpasp.... wave
i guess this missile fly at low speed as i feel !
what is 3m8m3 missile ?
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 12/12/13 09:21 PM



Nice:

http://kameraaltal.blog.hu/2013/11/21/1sz12m1_celmegjelolo_radiolokator_allomas
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 02/10/14 07:10 AM

thumbsup
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 02/10/14 10:02 AM

Former Czechoslovak training Krug....



Posted By: Architrav

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/07/14 09:06 PM

What is the vehicle in the third picture? Height finder or perhaps part of a target simulator system?
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/07/14 10:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Architrav
What is the vehicle in the third picture? Height finder or perhaps part of a target simulator system?


SNR on the move....
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/08/14 07:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Architrav
What is the vehicle in the third picture? Height finder or perhaps part of a target simulator system?


Page 8-9 of the English Manual...
Posted By: Architrav

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/08/14 08:55 AM

Of course. duh
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/08/14 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Former Czechoslovak training Krug....


Please, could you share the source? It is important...

(Do you know the names of the people on the picture)?
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/14/14 07:16 AM

I will send you a PM....
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 04/29/14 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd






Guys, it looks like the transmitting antennae of SA-4 and SA-8 are on the same principle - they have a reflector (or some kind of filter) in front of transmitter antenna.....
Posted By: ePap

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 04/29/14 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd






Guys, it looks like the transmitting antennae of SA-4 and SA-8 are on the same principle - they have a reflector (or some kind of filter) in front of transmitter antenna.....


For SA-8b it is truth that it is reflector because of one transmitting /receiving antenna.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 04/29/14 07:59 PM

It is a filter, I am not sure whether it is a some kind of polarizer (received signal has different polarization) or some band pass or so on. Anyways one antenna for transmit/receive is also true for other systems (except for Vega and PODSVET mode at Volkhov and tracking mode of Neva). Switching is done in other ways (for example switching within waveguide with a special "switch").
Posted By: ePap

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 04/29/14 08:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
It is a filter, I am not sure whether it is a some kind of polarizer (received signal has different polarization) or some band pass or so on. Anyways one antenna for transmit/receive is also true for other systems (except for Vega and PODSVET mode at Volkhov and tracking mode of Neva). Switching is done in other ways (for example switching within waveguide with a special "switch").


For OSA also works polarizing the receiving signals !
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 04/30/14 06:49 AM

Yes, that's what I wrote, polarizing filter :-)
Posted By: scrim

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 07/21/14 01:22 AM

Question about the range: A book I'm reading (and Wikipedia (I know, crap source)) lists the range of the SA-4 as being almost 800km). What's up with that, is there any truth to it? Different version than the one in SAM sim, or just straight off the walls wrong?
Posted By: ckfinite

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 07/21/14 05:31 AM

I think that that number refers to the range the TEL can travel without having to refuel, which seems to be the only reasonable hypothesis.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 07/21/14 09:57 AM

At the first sight, isn't it strange for such a small missile to travel for 800km (just imagine Vega size and it has only 250km flight range)? nope screwy

And if you look at wikipedia, there are two CLEARLY identified sections, one for TEL (range of 780km) and one for missile (55km)....
Posted By: scrim

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 07/21/14 11:56 AM

Ah yes, so it does. However, the book says "An example of a ramjet powered SAM was the Krug missile (NATO reporting name SA-4) of the former Soviet Union. The use of a ramjet gave the Krug an exceptionally long operational range - almost 800km!"

So, you're probably gonna want to steer well clear of "Surface-to-Air Missiles: Part of the Weapons of War Series" by Andrew May. Damn Wikipedia scientist is what he appears to be.
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 07/21/14 12:57 PM

Yes, these books are in almost every case crap :-(
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 08/15/14 06:08 AM

As Lenin said...
... learn - learn - learn.
biggrin

Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 08/15/14 06:37 PM

Where you got that?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 08/15/14 06:57 PM

Hungarian ones from Keszthely.





Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/18/14 08:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


The 1S12 SOC (Long Track) tracks the target similarly as the modern digital radars (ST-68U [Tin Shield]) do, just they do it for several targets parallel.



It first measures the (X/Y/H)"0" coordinate of a target, than during the next sweep, finds the closest target to that coordinate.
This will be the (X/Y/H)"1" coordinate. With a quick math, delta(X/Y/H) is determined.
During the third sweep, it looks for the closest target at (X/Y/H)"1" + delta(X/Y/H).
That will be (X/Y/H)"2", and the difference from (X/Y/H)"1" is again delta(X/Y/H).
etc...


If "Long Track" is a 3D radar, why they're using height-finders?

[video:youtube]http://youtu.be/clLlp4SDXyo?t=9m43s[/video]
Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/19/14 06:36 AM

Maybe for close high altitude targets outside the beam of the aquisition radar? And maybe they need to know the height of targets for distribution of target data to other units so the position and info can be plotted on the plotting board.

Long track will not tell you how high the target is.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/19/14 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


The 1S12 SOC (Long Track) tracks the target similarly as the modern digital radars (ST-68U [Tin Shield]) do, just they do it for several targets parallel.



It first measures the (X/Y/H)"0" coordinate of a target, than during the next sweep, finds the closest target to that coordinate.
This will be the (X/Y/H)"1" coordinate. With a quick math, delta(X/Y/H) is determined.
During the third sweep, it looks for the closest target at (X/Y/H)"1" + delta(X/Y/H).
That will be (X/Y/H)"2", and the difference from (X/Y/H)"1" is again delta(X/Y/H).
etc...


If "Long Track" is a 3D radar, why they're using height-finders?

[video:youtube]http://youtu.be/clLlp4SDXyo?t=9m43s[/video]


"Long Track" means two* radar types, and non of these are 3D in today sense**.

1RL128 P40 - with height finder, used for fighter guidance, and at SAM Brigade level.


1S12 SOC - without height finder, used at KRUG/KUB battalion level.


*easy way to differentiate between these sets from the outside, is to count vertical stiffeners in the antenna.
P40 has 9, while the SOC has 14.
biggrin

**SOC has azimuth, range, and coarse elevation information.
For the SNR with elevation scanning it is enough, for a successful fighter guidance it is not.

Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/19/14 05:53 PM

Thanks, I did not know this.

But in the video, they have a dedicated PRV heightfinder, probably for the first reason (higher level of command).
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/19/14 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Hpasp


1S12 SOC - without height finder, used at KRUG/KUB battalion level.




On video they are 1S12 SOC and a PRV (-9 or -16)...
Posted By: max2012

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 09/20/14 10:26 AM


Well done Hpasp!

Pictures are very beautiful Thank you!
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 10/03/14 11:09 PM

Privately owned KRUG...

Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 10/06/14 04:39 PM



Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 04/25/15 08:22 PM

Hi! Here're some pictures I took today during the "day of tanks" in Milovice (Czech). Krug is completely dead (except the positioning motors of the radar antenna) so far however I've managed to start up the turbine generator in Kub 2K12 TEL (2P25) so I'll try to take a video once I figure out how to move the platform. And maybe I'll power up the Krug from it so we can lift up the rockets. Obviously both the rockets and the radar parts were legally demilitarized but still all the panels lit will look great and the noise from the fans inside is quite impressive as well. It's really a great piece of a historical machine and I'm more and more amazed while discovering how all its systems woked.




Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 08/04/15 08:27 PM

Hi all,

time has passed and the next "day of tanks" at Tankodrom Milovice is coming up. It's going to take place on the last Saturday of the month (29.8.2015) and of course the Krug won't be left in the garage. In case someone was somewhere near Prague, it's an ideal opportunity to take a look. Of course we still don't have a power source so it's only a static display but still it's pretty interesting.
Our efforts are unending though so I'm sure we'll make some more progress in the future. Here're some pictures. I'm happy to say that we're finally getting somewhere with the renovation of this piece of technique. We've been focusing on the 2P24 lately as we'd like to paint it (it's very rusty) and make the elevation and azimuth systems moving. In order to do that we need to repair hydraulic actuators which I'm working on now.









Also I've obtained some documentation lately so in case somebody had a question I'm happy to look the answer up. smile
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 08/15/15 04:22 AM

Nice work!
Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 02/18/16 11:36 PM

Hi again. Here're some pictures from an event we recently had and the 2P24 was involved. Also I have a video but it was filmed from the 2P24's commander's seat so you can't actually see much of it in it.:)





Hopefully we'll get some actual work done as spring develops. In summer I'm planning on starting up the gas turbine generator in 1S32.
Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/06/16 08:06 PM

Hi. So I'm here to report some progress for those who are interested. Just recently we managed to get the hydraulic counterbalance system (on 2P24) working, luckily the whole automatic still works so it wasn't such a big deal in the end. I took a video of operation. Unfortunately the camera recording the actuator wasn't on so I only have pictures. Hopefully I'll take a better video next time. If I feel like unscrewing 20 screws while taking off the covering.... biggrin So here it is. The purpose of the system is to balance the weight of ty rocket by hydraulic pressure (around 12MPa). In the first picture you can see the whole setup (there are two total - one for each rocket). The green big thing at the top is an accumulator, under it there is a hydraulic pump and it's motor and there is an oil tank at the left corner. The second picture shows the piston of the pneumatic accumulator when unpressurized and the last picture when it's pressurized (fully in). The accumulator also serves as the pressure switch (microswitches on the piston itself). And finaly a video of the operator's panel during the operation. The pump takes around 300A of current while near the end of the cycle, that's why only one pump can run at the time. This part of the system doesn't need the AC supply so it works only from batteries (27V starting power source in our case).




Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/07/16 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Jarda1S32
Hi. So I'm here to report some progress for those who are interested. Just recently we managed to get the hydraulic counterbalance system (on 2P24) working, luckily the whole automatic still works so it wasn't such a big deal in the end. I took a video of operation. Unfortunately the camera recording the actuator wasn't on so I only have pictures. Hopefully I'll take a better video next time. If I feel like unscrewing 20 screws while taking off the covering.... biggrin So here it is. The purpose of the system is to balance the weight of ty rocket by hydraulic pressure (around 12MPa). In the first picture you can see the whole setup (there are two total - one for each rocket). The green big thing at the top is an accumulator, under it there is a hydraulic pump and it's motor and there is an oil tank at the left corner. The second picture shows the piston of the pneumatic accumulator when unpressurized and the last picture when it's pressurized (fully in). The accumulator also serves as the pressure switch (microswitches on the piston itself). And finaly a video of the operator's panel during the operation. The pump takes around 300A of current while near the end of the cycle, that's why only one pump can run at the time. This part of the system doesn't need the AC supply so it works only from batteries (27V starting power source in our case).

Pekne! Neco vic :-) (Nice! Some more :-))
Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 08/28/16 01:32 PM

Hi again all those interested in the Krug. So as promised, I started up the turbine generator. So far I have to control the valves manually since the control block is missing but I'm in a process of developing it's supplement. Also I managed to power up some instruments inside (yeah, almost in the exact way like it's in the sam sim:)) but unfortunatelly I didn't have time to properly try what's working and what isn't.... Also the antenna block isnt't connected at all. I'll try to bring some of the systems to life when we manage to acquire a diesel 400Hz generator which is quiter and much more fuel efficient... Check out a short video I made! https://youtu.be/XEh6Z8mzdHk

and some pictures here..


Posted By: PN79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/05/16 06:12 PM

Hello Hpasp and community,

In the manual for Krug there are information about missile types: 3M8, 3M8M1, 3M8M2 and 3M8M3. Does variant 3M8M exists too and with what capabilities?
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/06/16 09:27 AM

Imho 3M8M1 = 3M8M

WarPact received the 3M8M2 and the 3M8M3 version.
Posted By: PN79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/06/16 09:52 AM

Thank you for explanation.
Posted By: Comrade_Hedgehog

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/09/16 04:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Jarda1S32
Hi again all those interested in the Krug. So as promised, I started up the turbine generator. So far I have to control the valves manually since the control block is missing but I'm in a process of developing it's supplement. Also I managed to power up some instruments inside (yeah, almost in the exact way like it's in the sam sim:)) but unfortunatelly I didn't have time to properly try what's working and what isn't.... Also the antenna block isnt't connected at all. I'll try to bring some of the systems to life when we manage to acquire a diesel 400Hz generator which is quiter and much more fuel efficient... Check out a short video I made! https://youtu.be/XEh6Z8mzdHk

and some pictures here..




What would be cool is if you could wire it into samsim somehow.
I.E. play Samsim on your real Pat Hand. smile
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/09/16 06:08 PM

Great one!
Soon you wouldn't need SAMSIM at all!
thumbsup
Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 11/21/16 06:29 PM

Actually there's a device (don't know the code by heart) which allows you to simulate the target signals for training purposes. We don't have it though. Another device was used on 2P24s to simulate rockets.
Posted By: Hpasp

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 01/26/17 10:34 AM

Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 01/28/17 05:09 PM

Nice picture thumbsup Where is it from?
Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/26/17 05:36 PM

Hi again. I have some offtopic here. smile We didn't have much time to work on our hobby during the winter but I still have some news. After a long time, we managed to acquire a power generator for Krug (and Kub). Actually two of them. The first is a 40kVA diesel generator, which is already working and the second one is a 30kVA rotary converter (electrical motor powered from the grid rotates 400Hz generator). So I'm almost ready to finally start the job... I'm especially excited about powering up the 2P24, because since its turbine isn't operational yet, I never had it powered..

Here're some pictures:

Diesel generator:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Rotary converter:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

By the way, if someone was near Prague, both Krug and Kub will be on display at Tankodrom Milovice on 29th of April. I'll start the turbine on request. biggrin
Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/17/17 09:43 PM

Hi, so I'm here again to report some progress.
Today I managed to turn on the rotary converter VPL-30 to power up some basic systems of both 1S32 and 2P24. Still waiting for a better power plug because now I'm limited with maximum power to let's say 15kW which isn't much but still it's interesting. You can take a look here how the VPL runs.
Basic power-up of 1S32 was a success, although many systems are out of order. Which I'm going to work on. Here's a short video of how it went. smile Didn't really have time to film but I can tell that the computer is in a pretty good shape. On the other end some referential voltages are missing so I'll have to go through the power blocks... Oh well. Also I have some pictures of the tubes glowing. :p

[Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

As for the 2P24, it was even more interesting. I was able to turn on the original amplidynes which were in fact powering the motors and moving the rocket platform. Although I made some mistakes which resulted in some jerky movement, I think it'll work. Next time I'm going to make a video showing how to power up the 2P24. :))
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/18/17 02:14 PM

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Photo - Col. Stoykov...

Attached picture пулт.jpg
Attached picture last pusk Shabla.jpg
Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/28/17 08:21 AM

Doesn't Col. Stoykov (or someone else for that matter) have some documentation for Krug? I'm desperately looking for schematics of 1S32. I have those for 2P24. Without it it's really hard and time consuming to move forward. That's why I got the 2P24 almost fully operational and 1S32 lies in the shadow...
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/28/17 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jarda1S32
Doesn't Col. Stoykov (or someone else for that matter) have some documentation for Krug? I'm desperately looking for schematics of 1S32. I have those for 2P24. Without it it's really hard and time consuming to move forward. That's why I got the 2P24 almost fully operational and 1S32 lies in the shadow...



I will ask...
Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/29/17 09:09 AM

Thank you. I can offer some Czech documentation in return. Or an access to both 1S32 and 2P24. This offer applies for anyone here, if you happen to be near Prague.:)
Also I created this youtube channel for our Krug.
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/29/17 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Jarda1S32
Thank you. I can offer some Czech documentation in return. Or an access to both 1S32 and 2P24. This offer applies for anyone here, if you happen to be near Prague.:)
Also I created this youtube channel for our Krug.


BTW, do you have an FB account? (you or your Krug)?
Posted By: Jarda1S32

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 06/29/17 10:35 AM

Yes, I do https://www.facebook.com/jarda.bursik

The Krug doesn't have its own facebook page so far.. It's a good idea though. biggrin
Posted By: piston79

Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) - 03/27/20 09:15 PM

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