Flaming Cliffs 4

Just as you thought it couldn't get any worse ...



Another mind boggling decission.

Oh dear Lord!


Source

Thread


So basically, you have a DCS-level aircraft and then they will make a FC3-level version of that aircraft. Why? Why take on work that is already done? The thread title had me excited! Will we see a FC3-level F-22 or F35? Maybe an AH-64A as a precursor to a DCS-level AH-64D? What about a EF-2000? I'd buy that simply because I've been in 4 local airshows where this beast does afterburner flybys! Ha! No such luck!!

Some on-point responses:








This gem:



Nice to see a lot of "no" replies on the thread and watching NineLies answer concerns is just comedy gold!! Hiring this guy to do official PR for ED made as much sense as making FC4 featuring aircraft that already have DCS-level fidelity.

Something has to pay for the additional 5 years of Hornet development that was never scheduled.....unfortunately, the Hornet early release funds have a big shortfall in covering the extra 5 years of 2.5 development that was never scheduled.

And so the vicious cycle continues.

Even so, I'd see the point in adding new aircraft to get more money, but simplifying DCS-level aircraft and selling them as FC3-level versions? What are they going to do? Remove the clickable cockpit, simplify the FM and avionics, and then expect it to sell enough to warrant the effort/resources to do the unnecessary work in the first place, much less pay for another module?

Also, I thought the increased price of the Hornet was supposed to make up for this shortfall?

As highlighted on the ED message boards, this is nothing more than a pointless cash grab by greedy incompetent devs that can skim off the functionality from the full fidelity aircraft, repackage them and then expect customers to buy them again.......and also sell FC4 off as a 'new' product to new customers.

It's pointless discussing it really, ED don't have a clue where theyr'e going and have never had a roadmap.

I wonder if they actually do any thinking or any research before doing something like this. Old customers won't purchase this as they already have FC3 and/or the DCS-level modules they want. New players will be more attracted to FC3 due to the popularity of the airframes featured in that package. The only real market they have is that tiny population of their customer base that wants to fly a DCS-level aircraft but on a FC3-level fidelity. Someone who wants the Hornet/Viggen/F-5/M-2000C/A-10C but has not bought it yet in the hopes that an FC3-level variant would be made. I think there are about 5-8 of them

It would be so funny to have an A-10C at DCS-level and FC3-level as well! Having said that, couldn't you dumb-down the A-10C enough that it'll be even worse than FC3-level? I seem to remember one of the options was having a 360-degree magic radar that could see everything to help with pilot SA in one of the simpler modes.

F-16 please!!!!

and full fidelity F-16 eventually.

No joy there. The 4 aircraft for FC4 will be taken from their current roster of aircraft. Smart move for ED, yes?


ED doesn't listen to its customer base anyway so I fully expect them to go forward with this one. It'll be fun to watch. Guess this just shows me to stay away from the Hornet. It just goes to show how much of a priority it will be --- not even finished yet and there's talks/plans of the next cash grab. Would also totally suck for FC3 owners to have non-clickable pits but FC4 aircraft will have clickable pits, unless ED plans to remove those for FC4 which wouldn't surprise me at all.

Source
Oh my! I see the ban-hammer coming out!!

Eh? i don't even!

So ED in another masterstroke of decision making, are going to cannibalize their own sales! Competing against themselves, Friggin' Jenius with a capital J (no not a g).

What a bunch of retards.

ah I see, I wasnt reading.

Actually not that bad decision they made, considering is good for catching new commer.

There is actually a dozen of friends that I hesitate to invite to this genre because of hurdles they have to overcome, installation, joystick, trackir, learning system...etc
This will definitely lessen the hesitation.

There is almost no reason to purchase if you have the modules already though.

I am happy about the opportunity for a FC level aircraft that I wouldn't buy the "full" version of otherwise. I don't have the time to learn and stay proficient at multiple full "DCS" level modules, but am interested in addition FC level planes.

In my case it is incremental revenue, not canibalization.

What's the bet they will be WW2 aircraft?

The will prob dumb down a few of those and eg Fw-190, Me-109 and Spit in the hope of trying to reinvigorate their WW2 aircraft/terrain.

How so?


What's wrong with FC3 that you cannot invite them because of it? Would they not have to deal with installation, joystick, TrackIR, etc. regardless of FC3-level or DCS-level? The only thing less to learn would be avionics but even then, I would think that having to learn all those key combos (the entire cockpit, not just what's on the HOTAS) offsets any simplicity of FC3-level aircraft.



I had you in mind there, malibu43! But how many of you are really out there? What is the size of the market that feels the same as you? Regardless, even if there were 1,000 of you out of 100,000 total customer base, FC4 as planned will only really cater to 1,000. If they made FC4 with new aircraft as others suggest, FC4 can cater to the entire 100,000 customer base. This is what makes it a facepalm decision.

I was thinking that this could be a possibility, but what else can you do to dumb down a WWII bird? I can see simplifying A-A targeting and radar acquisition modes for modern aircraft, but there's no such issue with WWII aircraft, so how will they do it?

Just some random thoughts:

- Expand the gaming mode options in the core game so that already existing modules will be easer to master (models will sure be on sale sometime so that new players can buy them at FC level price)
- Do NEW FC4 level planes and sell them for ... I don't know ... maybe 25$ (brings in new players but also old ones will probably buy it just to have some more toys to play with --> vietnam era would be my top prio)
- If you have the ressurcen and the information update some of the existing FC4 level AC to full fidelity standard and charge maybe 30-35$ for the update

my contribution to this discussion

I'm not going to spend a bunch of time trying to find posts to reference, but it's been mentioned before by Wags and ED mods that Flaming Cliffs aircraft are actually some the best selling aircraft and are that the very vocal group on forums and that play MP (and prefer only hard core modules) are actually a minority in their customer base.

So given that ED is the one with actual sales and market data and stating this makes sense from a business standpoint, I'd say the burden of proof is on those that wish to prove this wrong, not on me to prove why it's a good idea.

I have no doubt FC3 aircraft are good sells but this is not only due to FC3-level fidelity, it also stems from the fact that we do not have DCS-level fidelity of these aircraft and when the featured aircraft includes the F-15C, Su-27/-33, and MiG-29A/29S, it's not hard to see the appeal. All of those aircraft for the price of (or less than) one DCS-level module? Very good value for money and a very good entry point for those starting in the simulation genre. Also given that this is the third iteration of that module, I'm pretty sure the profits from it are quite good considering how much work/investment has been put into it. FC4 is only similar in the sense that it will feature FC3-level fidelity. It will feature aircraft that have DCS-level modules. It will be the first of such a module. I am sure it will get some sales but eventually, people will realize that they can buy the DCS-level version and learn to work the aircraft once instead of twice, at which point we are back to the original target market such as yourself which IMO is a small percentage of an already small population.



Of course ED will choose to listen to their silent customers and ignore the vocal ones. That's how you make money, isn't it? Make a poll, but then do not follow the results of your poll. Make a forum to get customer feedback, but then argue that a lot more people buy your modules and the vocal customers in your forum, the people who actually engage with you, the people who you can see as good word-of-mouth recommenders, these people are actually the minority and don't know anything about business.



Constant delays and inability to meet their own deadlines?
Hiring NineLies as official moderator for their English forums?
I'd say ED first needs to prove to us that they know what they're doing!

I'd gladly take on the burden of proof if ED lets me in and show me the numbers so I can prove/disprove the claims. Besides, ED deciding to take on this project means they think it's a good idea. Does that not therefore mean the burden of proof is on them? I can easily point to all the "no" answers on their thread to show that a good number of people think it's a bad idea; they'll have to release FC3 sales numbers and ED forum membership numbers if they wish to disprove/negate that. Besides, just because someone is silent on the issue does not mean their answer is automatically a "yes."

Ice - let's agree to disagree on this one

I did not think we were disagreeing on anything, like I said, I knew you would be a perfect customer for FC4, or rather any FC-level aircraft they put out. Additional FC-level aircraft is a good idea. It is the selection of which aircraft to implement is what makes it

they are going to select probably the A-10C, F-5E, L-39 and F-18C - maybe it is not a bad thing, unfortunately I'll have to skip FC4 as well , due to lack of tree time.

Is that a joke or a typo?

I don't think the Hornet will be in FC4, too early. Most likely the Viggen, F-5, M-2000, and possibly a helo.

typo

from what I read it will be only those models the developer made.

And none have Air to Ground radar. Hmm.

I don't think we'll be having an A-G radar for a good while yet

the Hormuz add on took close to 4 years since it was announced

http://www.lockonfiles.com/forums/topic/39963-dcsw-new-map-revealed/?tab=comments#comment-310327

and DCS WWII after what, 5 years ? has still not delivered neither the P-47D nor the Me262 while the F/A-18 main feature AFAIK won't be part of its early release, all these new modules take years from being announced to being released or 100% complete.

so no reason to be so heat up about what will be included and we should not expect FC4 to be around any time soon.



I don't expect any to have - at least not for 5-10 years.

Don't see what you mean...the Air Quakers and hardcore simmers are different markets.

Same server though.

Same server = same market. At this point the 'hard core' simmers just become startupwhiners.

Yeah, let's bash the people who are serious about this hobby and call them whiners. That's the way to continue the hobby; alienate the hard core fans.

Do you know why shooters don't mix console gamepad with mouse and keyboard players?

Unfortunately so.

I don't know, is it because it would turn everyone into somethingwhiners?

Do you seriously, genuinely not know or are you just side-stepping the question?

I'm poking fun at 'You'.

By acting stupid?? By reinforcing the fact that some people side-step the question once backed into the corner by logic?

Counter guess:

-A-10C
-L-39
-F-18C
-Black Shark

^all are first party modules. Bundling the third party products could get messy down the road. Will be interested to see if third parties take this approach as well though.

Plus, WH and BS already have 'game' avionics and flight models. So, basically half the FC level 'down grade' is done.

Taking a glass half-full view: a nice and (presumably) affordable way to attract fresh blood to the scene. This isn't for customers they have, it's for ones that want. Re-packaging current assets is a lot more affordable from a resource stand point than 'starting from scratch.' If they use this as a chance to build in new platform features (eg. Dynamic campaign), then they'll likely get the current crowd riled up again.

Still, agreed on being disappointed at these being current modules, versus broaching into new territory.

I have kind of a mixed feeling over the FC aircraft. On the one hand I like being able to get up to speed fairly quickly, on the other hand I find myself wishing they had just a few switches that were clickable just so everything wouldn't need to be mapped or programmed into voice attack, especially since I fly VR only. That being said, I typically don't go through the full start-up and shut down procedures instead I tend to fill in the gaps on the auto-start to get the vehicle setup the way I want it. I have taken the time to learn the start-ups on several of the easier vehicles (L39, WW2 birds, F-5, Huey, F86), I just don't tend to use them. I also have spent serious time in only one of the FC3 vehicles, F-15....which I enjoyed immensely. Since I tend to use the autostart and do enjoy learning how to use the weapons/nav systems in a practical sense....I don't see myself purchasing light versions of modules I already have or have learned.

F-18 might not be there yet since it's a new module. Putting it on FC4 could potentially lose them a full-fidelity sale and I think ED would want as much of that sale as they can get.

I wonder if the Hog and the Shark were included, would they make the cockpit non-clickable as well? I hope not! I'd love to have my Su-27/Su-33 with clickable cockpit and if ED brings FC4 with clickable cockpit, then there's hope for my Russian birds.

Clickable is more accessible than not. I understand FC123 planes were made before that was a thing and conversion (aka complete redo) was laborsome. However FC4 and onward there is no reason to have non-clickable cockpits. You're making these new or from existing clickable architectures. Remembering LCtrl-LShift-PageUp is hard. Click the switch is easy. Clickable cockpit has nothing to do with complexity. Maybe FC planes have 10 switches instead of 100 for the study module but they should all be clickable.

Iron is hot, F18 might be one of FC4 planes.


FC3 level of fidelity AMRAAM/SEAD capable western jet wtih decent datalink is needed!!!

Iron is hot, F18 might be one of FC4 planes.


FC3 level of fidelity AMRAAM/SEAD capable western jet wtih decent datalink is needed!!![/quote]

Only plane I'm interested in FC level out of the current crop is the F-18 and maybe Harrier. M2000 would be nice, but I'd rather get a more modern -5 or -9 variant. I'd also be interested in variants of current FC planes, such as a MIG-35 or Su-27SM2 / Su-35.

"FC4 was a chance to introduce new aircraft that wouldn't otherwise be in DCS because they can't be made in full fidelity format,"
Yes! This! The F4 Phantom! I would have bought it just for that one magnificent jet! But I see nothing that makes me even want to think about it. But yeah, they took the lazy route. Airplanes that have already been built.

not sure if I will be buying this a forth time ....

Not when there are DCS-level aircraft of the same kind offered in FC4.... not unless you skipped on the DCS-level aircraft hoping for a dumbed-down FC-level version in which case this is the perfect module for you.