All your keys are belong to us

Anyone else notice the new blurb on the advertising tab on DCS today?

Warnings about buying cheap keys ...

It's a warning about buying Illegally Distributed / Reseller Keys.

Is there a warning about buying unfinished modules as well ?

Yes, it called 'These are in Beta'.

I didn't even know this was a thing.



The Jedi Master

..... And will be finished in a few years

It would be great if there was a fixed beta period.

We're usually given a time frame for a product to go into early access/alpha/beta.

Then we're usually given multiple extensions until it happens.

However, once it does there is no standard. I don't care if it's 2 months, 6, or even a year, but there should be some sort of expectation that a product will only be available for use before final release for a fixed period of time.

If it's out for 2+ years before final, the question becomes why was it released so early? If the "final" release consists of minor bug fixes that would otherwise necessitate a mere third digit increment (ie 1.5.4 was beta and 1.5.5 is release), then final release could've been earlier, like maybe 1.5.0?

If you're going to use industry standard terms, then use industry standard definitions and practices for what that means. Otherwise, just come up with your own.




The Jedi Master

Beta = We have your money, why the hell do we need to finish it? Much easier to come up with excuses / delaying tactics / fobbing off, and post pretty screenshots of other betas you will buy that will also never get finished.

repeat.

You can only p1ss on my back so many times and tell me its raining ....


Sadly some people ........ they cant get enough of the gold shower from ED

I purchased all my keys in North Korea.

You must know Kimmy the 3rd!

like his dad , he is a great guy - full of original ideas

Well it's worth noting they stopped using industry standard terms a couple of months ago (not that anyone in today's PC gaming industry uses them correctly anyway, not sure about console gaming one) and now they strictly use a term "Early Access" which can (and does) mean anything.

The MI-8 just hit release this month. It was in "early access" for about 3&1/2 years.

That's a tad long IMO.

And does it (the release version of Mi-8) have door gunners?

Oh, Force, It wasn't THAT long.... "only" 3 years 2 months and 6 days, as someone on the blue forum calculated (correctly I hope) .

Anyway, it does have a left side door gunner with KORD mg (can be operated by both AI and player) and right clamshell door gunner with PKT mg (AI only). And it finally has a freakin' 430 pages long ENG manual at last.

You guys are doing a hell of a job of convincing me not to reinstall DCS now that I just got my gaming rig back from Dell's repair depot.

there is plenty of stuff you can buy - try to buy what you plan to fly.

I bought my A-10C key from a 3rd party site. Cant recall now, but will check upon returning home on Friday. I'll be pissed if it's one of the ones banned. I didnt get a huge discount, but better than ED's "deals".

I'm (honestly) not sure I get it.

If I buy a car, I am the owner of that car right? That means I can sell that car if I want.

OK

If I buy a good ol' PC game on a CD, I am the owner of that CD and I can equally sell it right? I've done that before and I'm pretty sure I didn't break any law or contract or EULA.


So, what's the deal with DCS? I bought the product "DCS: A-10C", which nowadays comes as a download rather than on CD, but the form doesn't change what it is: an installer with a Key. That key is bound to my name, just as I had to put my name when installing MS Office 1997. So, I am the owner of that key. What law, contract or EULA am I breaking if I decide to sell it to my friend?

Is ED saying that we buy from them a non-transferrable good?

Thanks

Where before we could un-bind and re-sell our keys, it seems ED is now digging it's heels in and saying this is no longer allowed. Screw you and your logic and sense of ownership. This is ED publicly announcing its new policy. Keys not bought from the e-shop/steam/etc. are either illegal keys or second-hand keys from other users. While I can see why buying the first one is wrong, I fail to see the point on the second one. But again, screw you and your logic and sense of ownership.

Way to go, ED!

To be fair, there are plenty of other industries that do this.

Buy a movie on iTunes and see if you can give it to someone else. Buy a digital album on Amazon and see if you can give it anyone.

Producers of digital content not only want to reap the benefits of not paying for physical content any more (back when we spent $60 for a sim and got one or more flyable planes, one or more terrains, lots of AI air and ground vehicles, SP campaigns, MP of some type, a box, disc(s), and a nice printer manual), but like the MPAA and RIAA believe they should be paid every time someone new wants it.

Of course, the end game is pay-to-play, pay-to-listen, and pay-to-watch.

The day is coming when EVERYTHING will be a subscription, and I don't mean like Netflix or Spotify where you get a ton of games for that month, I mean like World of Warcraft. Plus you buy the expansions on top of that monthly fee.



The Jedi Master

Yeah that's unfortunately where the world is going and it sucks. I hate pay to play and avoid it as much as possible.
So I just read the DCS EULA, and boys and girls, we are owners of basically nothing.
We pay to be able to use the program, but we don't own anything.
That also means that one day in 2052, when DCS F-18 will release in early access but you'll be stuck in bed with a poop-bag, you will not be able to pass those few thousand bucks worth of modules to your grandson.

This is the world we live in.


Here are the main points from the EULA:

2. OWNERSHIP
2.1 The Program is licensed for your use. This Licence confers no title or ownership in the Program and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Program. This Licence shall also apply to any patches or updates you may obtain from TFC for the Program.

3. LICENCE CONDITIONS
3.1 Except as expressly set out in this Licence or in clauses 4.1 and 4.2 below, or as permitted by any local law, you undertake to use the Program for your own personal use, and you shall not:
(a) sell, trade, rent, lease, sub-license, merge, adapt, vary, modify the Program, or any copies of the Program, without the express prior written consent of TFC;
(f) gifting of keys is permitted, under condition that the transferred key has not been used / activated.

9. LICENCE TRANSFER
9.1 TFC may transfer, assign, charge, sub-contract or otherwise dispose of this Licence, or any of our rights or obligations arising under it, at any time during the term of this Licence.

Have you by any chance read your windows OS EULA?

Nearly Every Software EULA States the same thing,

You Know the Window you Scroll through to the bottom without reading and click "I Agree" Button to continue w/ the Setup/Install procedure..

I I I lost it, a module I got as a gift - it is
lost
the key no longer works
all I have now are the memories
of the few moments we spent together
gone
those moments we shared together ...
I am at a loss for words.

Fair enough. If this was the case from Day 1, then we wouldn't be here talking about it. It's their recent change in policy that, on top of everything else, leaves an even worse taste in the mouth.



+1! I don't like subscription-based stuff at all. That's why I still use Office 2007. That's why I stopped playing EVE Online. I played World to Tanks and I play War Thunder but limit my spending in those games. When I think about having spent as much on those games as I have on some other titles, well, I'd really rather not think about it.



Not surprised at all.



No need to. Just give him access to the email account and you're golden.

Thanks for the reply Art.

This got me somehow interested so I went visiting ED page, more precisely the Mi-8 entry and also read DCS Mi-8 also includes a campaign.
This is good news, maybe I'll get this one (Mi-8) when it or if it becomes cheaper.

Unfortunately it seems to be heading that way.

But this kind of "e-commerce" model will only work if people accept it or resuming if people use these services! If people start to get their act together (and I believe this is not an if but a when) and refuse this model or resuming "boycotting" this model than I believe it will be the end of such model. However I agree that it will take some time until this actually starts happening.

Yep, but that's very different to a EULA changing after you've already purchased the product under different conditions.......and not acknowledging, agreeing or even knowing about the change.

Either EDs customer base were unaware of the changes made to the agreement or ED were violating their own licensing terms for years.

...

there is a simple reason why it is not it the interest of any developer to allow a secondary market of serial numbers, this would drive down the price of their products in no time, why buy (even at a discount) if you can buy at a fraction of the price later on.

no surprise then that they did what they did.

now, back to my module that I got as gift and now is lost ... I am so distressed that I am going to erase all my DCS tattoos.

Exactly, digital products do not degrade. A used LP or VHS tape was qualitatively inferior to a new copy.
The license key to a piece of software doesn't result in a lesser performing version when it is resold.



The Jedi Master

it would not hurt to allow owners of those keys, a discount when buying again the same module.

I owned the P-51 before I bought into the kickstarter. With my kickstarter pledged I am owed every aircraft, which includes a p-51 key, so now I am effectively shafted out of more of what I was originally owed. I now have 2 P-51 keys one of which is completely useless as I can not even give it away. Well done ED you have totally screwed those folk who backed your kickstarter. With every announcement it feels more and more like theft.

I'm sure they would now argue "It wasn't ED that did the kickstarter" followed by "you should be grateful ED picked up the torch, otherwise... well, you knew the dangers of kickstarter!"

Eh? Why would you buy a module twice?

since the old key does not work - and if I really am into that module, that would be something that I would find OK.

I am just commenting on this - although I lost that module, right now, I am otherwise entertained.

If you wanted to gift it to someone. I have bought every module, until recently, at least twice, in some case 3 or 4 times. I have given away at least two dozen over the past few years.

If so, then ED would definitely NOT want that considering their current policy and also previous ploy of "bonus points" system.

Oh and I bought my A-10c key from Origin so I guess that's invalid now.
For a company that offers no refund themselves to ask us to seek a refund elsewhere is just beyond comprehension. I am gobsmacked folk still buy their stuff

Just wanted to clarify, you're not suppose to give your Amazon digital music to others but there is no DRM involved, just plain MP3s (single or album). Like buying a game from GOG, without DRM it works on the honor system.

Music purchased from Apple, however (I believe), does include DRM but I don't know the limitations. I use iTunes with my Shuffles but almost all of my iTunes music library is burned from my CDs, the rest I purchase from Amazon (DRM-free MP3s). I don't have an Apple account so I don't know how the DRM works.

There's no DRM, but the files I believe are watermarked with your account info.

So, in theory, if you buy an album on Amazon, give a copy to someone else, and then they upload it to the net for others, your name is on those files.



The Jedi Master

MP3 has DRM,... you just dont notice it.

No Skate, it's not a given.

Even Amazon watermarking (mentioned by JM) is relatively new...

==========
Initial reaction to Amazon MP3 was generally positive. The unofficial Apple Weblog praised the lack of DRM especially given that track prices were cheaper than iTunes Plus songs at launch, but the reviewer considered the user experience better in iTunes than on the Amazon web site.[25] Om Malik of GigaOM also praised the lack of DRM and the high bitrate but disliked the need to install another application to download albums. Overall, the reviewer said "…I think it makes sense for everyone to browse the Amazon store before hitting the 'buy' button on iTunes."[26]

A 2007 study by Eliot Van Buskirk of Wired News's "Listening Post" blog investigated whether Amazon MP3 was watermarking tracks with personally identifiable information. Van Buskirk quoted an Amazon spokesperson as saying, "Amazon does not apply watermarks. Files are generally provided to us from the labels and some labels use watermarks to identify the retailer who sold the tracks (there is no information on the tracks that identifies the customer)." The study concluded that although tracks may be watermarked to indicate that they were purchased on Amazon MP3, there is no data to indicate which specific customer purchased a given MP3 file.[27] This observation reflected Amazon's policy at the time.[28]

Watermarking

By 2011, however, the policy had changed and certain explicitly labeled tracks embed "Record Company Required Metadata" including, among other information, unique identifiers:[29][30]

Embedded in the metadata of each purchased MP3 from [Universal Music Group] are a random number Amazon assigns to your order, the Amazon store name, the purchase date and time, codes that identify the album and song (the UPC and ISRC), Amazon’s digital signature, and an identifier that can be used to determine whether the audio has been modified. In addition, Amazon inserts the first part of the email address associated with your Amazon.com account

Music downloaded during the temporary promotional time period of trial membership will be blocked from access if the membership isn't continued.
==========

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Music

And watermarking still includes no physical DRM limitations, just like when you burn your CDs to MP3 (assuming you first burn to a lossless format for safe keeping, and then burn those files to lossy MP3).

Right, you can do anything you want with those Amazon MP3s, it won't stop you, unlike when my wife bought some from Walmart's site and a few other places in the past. They "rolled back" that part of the site and the files became useless when you couldn't access the licenses any more.

Doesn't mean Amazon doesn't track them, though.



The Jedi Master

That type of DRM (and as Skate put it, "...you just don't notice it.") is fine by me. I use to purchase AutoCAD which had a serial number linked to my name, as well as a CD key. All fine with me, I could still make backup copies of my software CDs (never cared if I was suppose to or not as I never shared them). As with my music CDs to MP3, GOG games and my Amazon MP3s, all backed up in triplicate and none ever require online services to work.

I take comfort in that because fast dependable online access is not guaranteed where I live, so nothing I own requires online services.

I think the situation is poor, but you can't fault them. Developers often loose money from these sites. There was a good article put out by another game developer which explained why they lost money. In some instances buying a game from these sites may cost them, which is worse than piracy. At least when you crack a game the developers don't loose anything.

Can you explain how a developer will LOSE money by selling to a third-party re-seller?

First off, there is virtually no manufacturing cost for something like DCS. It does not come in a CD/DVD, there is no CD/DVD case, there are no manuals... how much does it cost to "manufacture" a license key?

Second, if they've not recouped their initial investment yet for a particular module, then don't offer it at a discount/sale price and don't offer it to a third-party re-seller. But this is not the case. ED is saying **ALL** keys from re-sellers are illegal, and that includes keys for DCS A-10C and DCS BS2... they've not recouped their money from these modules?

Lastly, even if you "lost" $5 per copy by selling via a re-seller, you still made $45-55, or even $20-25... if you "lost" a copy on piracy, 1) you never really lose only "one" copy, you're losing thousands, and 2) you made $0 on each of those copies.

I think it really comes down to poor sales. Sales have dropped due to the unfinished nature of DCS products, plus the folk who want DCS products already own them so the sales are really just trying to get new customers. Unfortunately for ED and their 3rd parties the flight sim community are well aware of the very long development process and are really not willing to pay, even sales prices, for a product that may well remain in beta for 3 to 5 years. Now they're shooting themselves in the foot by removing the ability of those customers who were willing to buy extra copies to gift to folk who were on the fence about DCS. ED are a bumbling mess of a company, who's development and sales strategy seem to be run by wags' 5 year old kid.

Dont forget Ice .... those electrons to transmit the data are not free

You seem completely oblivious to what sort of niche genre sims (and similarly, wargames etc) are and how companies fund themselves in the industry. Not to mention, ED sells modules to a game that is free yet still under constant support and development. I would not expect anything to ever be "cheap".



That math is as if the grey market keysellers sold their games near western world prices. Instead, they often cost something like 30-50% less, and most of that money still goes to the reseller as the key originates from bundles or was bought in a region with considerably lower pricing, like Russia, some Eastern European countries, Asia etc, and in worst case scenario, was bought with stolen credit card details to begin with. We all want cheaper games and software, but you can be sure that letting these sort of keyseller sites thrive isn't going to do a whole lot of good for the industry.

What seemingly is being over looked is price threshold ....

example

Module blah comes out , as a not even half completed Alpha

Customer looks at it ..... hmmm this item of unknown quality is out to purchase ....
He asks himself some questions

1. Am I interested enough to part with ( X - pre-sale discount) on this item and hope I like it (when it is available to download)
2. Do I want to wait until it is available (so I may ask opinions of others on its quality) @ X price
3. Do I want to wait until it is available on SALE at a good discount
4. Do I want to wait until the module is "finished" .. or the second comng or jesus, which ever comes first

If you have a massive hardon for something you might go for 1
If it is kinda semi you might wait until 2 or a few weeks after
... and if you are not that really interested in it .. maybe you get it in the sale later
Option 4 of course may not happen for years .. but I digress

Point is, I have only bought some modules when they were insanely cheap, I would NEVER have bought them otherwise, Zero sale @ full price VS 1 sale at discount price
Which do you think makes them more money ?

With experience of the hawk and others, my days of rolling hte dice and hoping the module will be finished in a timely fashion and also of decent quality are long gone.
Remember once they have your money where is the motivation to make them complete it.
Hands up who has hired a tradesman and paid him fully up front for a service, before he has even started (excluding if he had to outlay for parts materials etc)

I look at the F5 and go , meh looks kinda ok, but not really my thing, at current price no fecking chance am I buying it, if it was heavily discounted then I might just for poops and giggles

But all of this is just your personal case, you can find lots of people on all groups. The fact that ED stopped doing sales with massive discounts suggests their data shows it's not profitable or good business in the long run.

Also as much as I hate Early Access, the blame is on the consumer. As long as people continue buying Early Access products, the scheme will thrive.

Starforce Proactive Keys are not Freely Generated, Companies Pay for them, usually by Lots.

Which is why during huge sales, steam and even the ED Shop would run out of keys for very popular products.

I was really, really hoping for someone to shed actual light on this issue; maybe somebody sees some "logic" that I cannot see from my perspective. Unfortunately, I do think you are right, Johnny... cutting off their nose to spite their face. Alienating current customers **AND** 3rd-party re-sellers as well. If you think about it, that's right in line with ED's current "business plan" so nothing should come as a surprise.



Enlighten me, then. Let's see how far you can take this.



If a 3rd-party re-seller can sell a key for 30-50% less, how is that the customer's problem? If they can buy it for XX and sell it for YY and get ZZ for profit, isn't that capitalism in action?

If a 3rd-party re-seller sells a key and pockets the money, why is that a problem? That's how their entire business model works!

If the key was from a bundle, how is that the 3rd-party re-seller's problem? ED has ALREADY made a sale from the initial bundle! If it was from a region with lower pricing, ED has ALREADY made a sale from the original buyer.

As for stolen credit card details, buying from Russia, etc., then that is an issue that ED and/or the bank needs to address. Again, how is this the 3rd-party re-seller's fault? Or how is it the fault of the consumer who has had enough of ED and wants to sell his modules and wash his hands of DCS?

No. The issue here is that ED wants to limit how their product is sold... okay, that's fair. But to say that externally-purchased keys are taken via fraud is another thing. And so is stopping customers from passing their keys forward; a practice that has existed and been done for the past 6+ years that I know of. It is then less of "control" and starts becoming more of "greed." Or is it "desperation"?

Also, you do know that outside of buying a physical copy of a game from a brick-and-mortar store (or online), sites such as Steam and GoG and others really are 3rd-party re-sellers, right? Origin selling their games, that's a 1st-party store, and so is Uplay, but everything else out there.... GreenMan Gaming, Direct2Drive, etc. all fall into the same category. So how is "letting these sort of keyseller sites thrive" supposed to be bad for us? Where is this "crash of the gaming industry" since Steam is the most "evil" of companies?



Pfft!! So what's with the constant "bundle" sales and "you can use more points" sales? Sure, the massive sale cuts are gone now, but that doesn't mean they've stopped doing their sales. As for "their data suggests..." I would take that with a lot of salt. If ED did monitor any such "data" and reacted to it, they wouldn't be in the cesspool they're currently in. If they wanted something along the lines of profitability or good business, they'd change their focus from limiting where customers can buy game keys to something else... I dunno, like maybe finishing their modules? Or, hmmm... maybe getting their core product out the door sooner rather than later? Oh! And just a wild thought here... really just out of the blue... along the lines of good business... maybe accommodating criticisms and handling negativity on their official forums on a more adult, mature, professional manner? But really, what do I know, eh? I'm just a simmer who is completely oblivious to what sort of niche genre DCS belongs to.



It's not the Early Access scheme that's the issue. A lot of other devs do this with great results. It's the "FOREVER in Early Access" and bugs that don't get squished and Module 1 still needing work and devs announcing work on Module 2.... those are the issues with ED's model of "Early Access".... really, it's not "Early Access" but more like "Buyer Beware."



And that cost is (or should be!) built into the pricing even BEFORE selling it to a 3rd-party re-seller. How much is a Starforce key? Vs. how much is it to manufacture a DVD, put it in a case, put a quick-start manual in, ship it to stores, and so on?

So again, how does a developer LOSE money by selling to 3rd-party re-seller?

I have some DCS keys ED can buy for a small price if they're strapped for cash.

I've been trying for 2 years to get a refund on that crappy Hawk. 'Top of the Tree' doesn't respond to any requests even though the refund policy is even part of his sig on the ED message boards (must have had a lot of requests due to the mess they made).

The hawk ...... or buyers remorse as I call it

I just did.




Let me rephrase what I tried to explain. License keys are sold in certain 3rd world regions for really low prices to fight piracy and try to cobble up at least some profit. 3rd party keysellers resell these low-price license keys to western markets where the prices are the highest. Now this might be great for the consumer in the short run, but who do you thinks wins in the long run?




How can you compare key-resellers to stores that have actually made a contract with the publisher to sell said game? What do the latter have to do with the grey market profiteering discussed earlier? I'm also quite sure that stores like Steam and so on don't buy keys from publishers in batches, instead they simply get keys (or create them themselves) and transfer the money from sales later.



Do you consider your tone of writing now to be more adult, mature and professional? Do you think SimHQ DCS Forum here is a place where you can have an objective discussion about DCS? If you go outside the official forums to the DCS communities that actually actively play the game, have you noticed that despite us sharing the same criticism about the game we still enjoy it? Why do you think that is? Could it be that you yourself are in a self-made cesspool, unable to see that the world's not black and white?

Anyways, you want polished games - the sad fact is that new features and content sell better than polished products. That's the reality with today's generations who want more and they want it now.



The only games I've seen to thrive with EA scheme (from the consumer point of view) are either completely open-ended sandbox games like Minecraft or Kerbal Space Program, or something like Arma 3 that went into Early Access at the very final phases of development. The rest, that is, the vast majority of EA games rely on Early Access sales for continued development and that is not good.

Also to put things into perspective, in DCS the EA titles are mostly used as an excuse for bugs - the modules usually still launch with most of the features present. Even if ED were pressured to scrap EA, we'd probably still get our buggy modules, they'd just be called 1.0.

No, you just stated that I am completely oblivious to the genre and how companies fund themselves. You've not explained the genre to me nor have you told me how companies in this genre fund themselves as opposed to companies of other genres funding themselves.



Let me show you the flaw here. Try to follow:
> ED sells keys in certain regions at low prices for whatever reasons
> Keyseller buys keys and re-sells it to the western market at a higher price

With me so far? Good.
1. It's not the customer's fault for wanting to get a better deal.
2. It's not the customer's decision to sell at certain regions for lower pricing
3. It's not the customer's decision that there are no region-locks or other forms of control to limit re-selling

Bottom line: If ED wants to make a buck, it can. Whether it be lower prices on certain regions, bundle deals, etc. However, punishing the customers by not allowing them to re-sell their keys when they could do so freely previously and calling non-approved 3rd-party re-sellers outright theives is a step in a very, very wrong direction.

I'm sorry for you, but I'm clearly in the camp of the consumer/customer. Whether the company makes a profit or not, whether it survives or not, is up to the company.



Hahahahaha.... are you even serious? Stores just create keys themselves? What's stopping them from selling 1,000 copies of a game and declaring that they only sold 800? Nope, there'll be tighter restrictions there.



You seem to be confused. I have no ties to DCS or any company whatsoever. My tone of writing will impact me alone. On the other hand, companies that hope to sell goods have something called "customer support" and "customer satisfaction" to worry about. I'm really surprised I have to explain this.



Objective, yes. Delusional, positive-only, overly-optimistic discussions, no.



Hmm... let me check. Nope. Not in a cesspool here! Jacuzzi, more likely!

On a more serious note, I have cited why DCS is in a cesspool. You have just pointed a finger at me without evidence that I'm in a cesspool. Be a man and back up your accusation, or be like every other Pro-ED fanboi here who disappears and goes on another track once their strawman arguments have burned down.



We all want polished games. The issue here is that we are PROMISED polished games which aren't delivered or are in a perpetual "beta" state with "everything is subject to change" used as an excuse all the time. Heck, we aren't even "today's generation" and we even give ED a good and reasonable timeline... which they yet fail to meet. They give themselves a deadline, announce it, and repeatedly fail to meet expectations, both ours and theirs. This gets old after a while.



Well, ED clearly relies on EA sales. Thank you for admitting that is not good!



It's also an excuse for halted or slow development. That would be fine if it were taken by itself, but when you realize that they've halted or slowed development BECAUSE they're now working on something ELSE, it becomes a different matter entirely.

I think that's quite an accurate analogy...........and the same reason why the disclaimer 'Everything is subject to change' exists. It's so that ED can make it up as they go along and try and cover up their incompetence as they stumble from one issue to the next.

Ehm no, are you serious?. Steam is the official and only digital distributor for thousands of games, other stores in their case sell Steamkeys only. The developer/publisher has the choice of creating/handling the license keys themselves and transferring batches of them to Steam or letting Steam generate them. Further services are offered such as Steam DRM, Steam Community for user accounts/profiles, multiplayer matchmaking and so on. Origin, Uplay etc offer similar things but aren't as popular with 3rd parties. So much for comparisons to brick-and-mortar stores.



You're right, ED should never have allowed reselling activated keys, it wasn't safe to begin with. I do still think that the vast majority of keys sold via sites mentioned by ED are grey market profiteering instead of humble consumers selling keys for video games they no longer need.





No, you said ED is in a cesspool and just gave your opinion on how the company should be run. People also turn on their tracks here pretty fast because of all this cancer. All I've done is disagree with you about some license key business and ED as a business itself, and you're totally itching to throw me under the "Pro-ED fanboi" category, which are also this forum's favorite words it seems.

Like I hinted before, I share mostly the same criticism about DCS as you. But instead of ranting about how everything is a conspiracy against consumers, I believe things aren't so simple. Sure, ED is on this business to ultimately make money. But they're also in the business of making consumer flight sims when they could be coding mainstream games or some other software to make a lot more money. The lack of competition speaks for itself.

The PR problems aren't just ED being little pricks. I live near the Russian border, have dealt with Russians since I was a kid and later in worklife - I would boldly say handling criticism is a problem with the overlying Russian culture as a whole. They're used reacting the way they do, but to us westerners it's offensive. Maybe you'll now title me "ED apologist". There are also petty forum moderators who aren't on ED payroll, while ED seems to care less about the non-Russian parts of the official forums similar to many other Russian sim/game devs.

At the end of the day, I still stress that things are up to the consumer to vote with their wallets. I don't buy the dreams promised in marketing speeches or development roadmaps, I buy games and sims based on how they currently are and that's why I've been able to enjoy my DCS modules. A nihilist part of me has come to accept some (many) bugs, mainly because within the flight sim, wargaming and grand strategy genre, it most often becomes a question of whether you want to play something or not play anything at all. Games released in buggy & messy states, lacking promised features and whatnot is an issue today encompassing the whole gaming industry and that is why I just cherrypick the things I like enough and that's it.

There's so much #%&*$# going on that it makes ED outright adorable in comparison.

I don't know if I would call it incompetence, that's pretty strong. To date, I have seen little evidence of ED's inability to fix a problem or add a feature that they committed resources to. I have seen plenty of evidence of reprioritization combined with simply not even trying on this or that.

Perhaps "lack of foresight" or "inability to stick to a plan" is closer, or just easily distracted.

If you're walking from one side of town to the other, and you walk at your fastest sustained pace without pause or distraction, you will get there far ahead of someone who allows themselves to stop at this store, then cross the street to check out that new restaurant, then double back the way you came to see what price they were selling that item before, then go back to the first store and buy it there because it was cheaper after all...

Is that person incompetent because of how much longer it took them to get there? They certainly lack focus, and if you were waiting on them for some reason it will certainly burn that they couldn't just walk straight there like they promised they would, but it doesn't make them useless.

What they need is a strong guiding force that requires significant input to alter course from. They need to be a massive sailing vessel that takes serious strength to change its path, not a dinghy that will make a 90 degree turn every time a wave over 2ft high bumps it.



The Jedi Master

The definition of 'incompetent' is the inability to do something successfully.

When have ED ever released anything to the intended date they themselves have published? It's not just about getting there in the end and I'm not saying they are incompetent in everything they do. They do have quality products.......it's getting there that is the problem. I've said it before but the worst part of ED is that they continue to make the same mistakes over and over and clearly aren't learning anything from their previous mistakes. In my opinion you'd struggle to find a better example of incompetence.

Er, no, Steam is not the "official and only" distributor. Maybe for the majority of games, but not all. Other sites sell keys that require a Steam account, sure, but again, not all games follow this method. I was also definitely NOT referring to Steam as talking about Steam is moot in this discussion -- ED regards Steam as a "legit" site and we were talking about the so-called "illegal" 3rd-party re-sellers.



Precedent. Also wonder why you insist on the "gray market".... if a key was purchased from a site/region with a cheaper price, the act of selling it for a profit, whether it be western customers or whatever, does not make the act illegal. Purchasing keys with stolen bank details, sure, but not buying low and selling high. If ED wanted to lock this down, I'm sure there are ways to do so without having to screw over the legit customers wanting to "sell on" unused modules.



Er, in the paragraph where I used the word "cesspool" lies my reasons why I say ED is in a "cesspool." Try reading that paragraph again.

Maybe you're a "Pro-ED fanboi" or maybe you're not. Degenerating the discussion from talking about ED to talking about me being in a cesspool is a common "Pro-ED fanboi" tactic, hence the label application.



1. Conspiracy implies some plotting and conspiring occurs. I don't believe this is so. More like bumbling around in the dark and hitting things. Or diving headlong into situations without properly weighing the pros and cons. No plan. No focus.
2. If ED wants to make money, again, they're going about it the wrong way. It seems the "right way" in the short term, "fleecing Paul to pay Tom." But they're burning bridges and leaving bad taste in mouths of their customers as they go along. Bad PR. Lack of focus. Inability to meet their own deadlines. Unprofessional conduct on official forums. Is this the way to make money? I doubt it.
3. They may not have "competition" in the sense of a full-time paid dev team, but IMHO a bunch of guys who code for the low, low price of FREE is putting ED devs to shame.



You have a business and one of your biggest customer base is a totally different culture from your own. Do you hire an "expert" to represent your company to that market or do you just "continue as normal" and expect your CUSTOMERS to adjust to your culture? Again, not really the best way forward and also showing how they don't have a clue. I wonder if they extend the same policy to their military customers?



True!



Not true!



ED could be forgiven much, much more if they were more open and honest. Alas, such is not the case.



Not sure I understand how this last statement tied with the previous lines??

No, no, no. Let me state this clearly: ED has shown in the past that they can be competent.... Unless DCS A-10C and DCS BS2 were just flukes? No, the guys at ED have talent. The management of ED is incompetent. The best ship at sea can be an awesome sight to behold, but it can be also painful to watch it rudderless (or helmsman-less??) as it veers towards the rocks.

Funny as it may be, this is how I imagine some of their meetings taking place. After you get rid of the funny and realize that everyone else was serious, it becomes painful. Enjoy!


linky

Please. I was clearly talking about specific games that are Steam exclusive. It was me who said that Steam can generate keys, I said Steam specifically, to which you answered "nope". Also, ED does not simply "regard Steam legit", ED has made a contract with Steam to distribute DCS. ED supplies Steam with license keys, Steam takes it's share off the sales and ED pockets the rest.



What are you tripping about? Grey market is by definition legal.



DCS would likewise probably be better if it was a non-commercial community modding project working on top of an established game.



Try the very previous sentence.

And you have thus lost the plot entirely. Why would I be talking about Steam when they are in the "approved" list of ED? Also, you said "stores like Steam," so you clearly meant Steam *AND OTHERS*. That is the only reason I continued discussion; not about Steam.



Pfft! Fine. Gray market = legal. It means different from where I'm from. Point still stands.



Probably so. We can only speculate.




Ah, the "everybody does it anyway" argument. Nice. Should've known this was coming as you already used the "if ED didn't make DCS, we'd have nothing to play at all" argument.

Also noted how you just cherrypicked my response. And here you are trying to say you aren't a "Pro-ED [edited]"!!


Watch the "Labels" Ice...

no mention of kmspico who have distributed dodgy keys for years.......

I expected kmspico to be ranked high up the list on ed's official site distribution of dodgy keys

what's the go with unbinding and gifting key's??

option has been removed, looks like it can only be done via opening a ticket......and after the last 4 or so tickets I opened with DCS, I doubt it will be achieved on my profile

copy,

however it has been some time since I replied to anything SimHQ...

as for a 1 way street, may I point you to this thread I started in regards to the hawk.....the very thread that got me banned from the official DCS forums, I was warned numerous times in regards to some posts I made by the moderators of SimHQ, yet I was not banned from these forums.

Hawk

This linked thread alone is forwarded as evidence that SimHQ and the DCS section is not by any means a 1 way street.

Wow , David Banned, thats a shame I used to love glancing at his massive walls of text that
basically broke down into Iam right you are wrong , ED are the greatest evah
but spread into as many paragraphs as possible

blasphemy, I take it you are a buddy of David or more likely just david with a new account ?

I had David on my ignore list, the only time I've ever felt the need to do that to anyone. Unfortunately I could see his copy paste posts every time someone quoted him. It does look like he's back under the blasphemy tag. He's obviously hurt by the banning and it should give him an idea of the frustration others feel about being banned on the DCS official forums, some empathy maybe? He obviously has a passion for the DCS line and it's not an easy choice for the mods here to ban folk here however being able to re register pretty quickly under a new name is quite a contrast to the DCS forums where ones ip is banned.

I don't have any problems at all about his passion for DCS, it's the unsubstantiated claims that he makes that I cannot leave unchallenged. If he stated them in a more "I could be totally wrong here, but my opinion is..." way, then sure, everyone's entitled to an opinion. However, he states his side in a way that looks as if he knows more than he's letting on, and that needs to be called out.

I'm quite surprised about the 2-year ban on him though. I guess someone in authority has been monitoring him and has had enough of him, and if go by my experience here, he'd have had some sort of warning before the ban landed, for this one and/or the previous ones.

ED bans the IP? I didn't know that. That makes the ban hammer much more serious, which makes the fact that they weild it so nonchalantly look so wrong.

I believe many forums have multiple ways of banning. There are IP bans, account bans, bans based on email used for the account, and so on.

Of course, most people have access to more than one IP (home, work, mobile, etc), so it's easy to get around unless you keep coming back and the mods recognize you and add to the list.



The Jedi Master

Most of your text is too loaded, extreme, emotional or exaggerating, indicating it's probably impossible to have a friendly discussion. This is a videogame forum and I don't want to get cancer.

Cop out. Everybody knows you don't get cancer from that but rather from low-fps gifs/memes.

I also LOL at "exreme, emotional or exaggerating"... if it were so, then it shouldn't be too hard to falsify the point.

My ban was initially for 24 hours, it was my responses to the minion mod via PM that got me 12 months, all I did was deliver some home truths to the sphincter climbing collaborating gutless fanny fart.

So irrelevant of what you see posted publicly, these piss ant mods throw their virtual weight around a whole lot more via the PM system, they're basically free to do as they please.

..rather a sad existence.

Ok

I generally don't discuss SimHQ forum moderation in public...especially in terms of a specific member...but since blasphemy (David_OC) is
pushing for an explanation...I will address it briefly.

We all follow the same rules here...but your actions may be dealt with more swiftly given your membership status. In this case, there is a new member that has accumulated 6 infractions in 6 months of posting here. David created a dual account to circumvent a ban...and managed 12 posts pretending to be someone else and was warned via PM and given a 2 week ban.

A lot of forums would consider this a "perm-ban" offense, but we err on the side of leniency here when possible. After the warning and ban...he attempted to login to the other account again...two weeks later. In case some aren't aware...once you create a dual account to bypass a ban or bolster an opinion...your membership is pretty much circling the drain and you are going to be under a microscope and more closely payed attention to.

I'm going to temp lock this thread and let my post "digest" a bit with everyone.