homepage

Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals

Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/07/14 09:50 PM

Today I received the Slaw BF109 pedal. I've been eagerly waiting to get my hands on Slaw's all metal all magnetic frictionless sensor driven rudder pedals. Finally I can now compare the two top notch enthusiast pedals of Flight simmers.

Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/07/14 10:19 PM

Now when it comes to packaging Slaw has Milan beat hands down. Slaw uses a much more durable box and uses a better packaging technique than Milan. I've conversed with Milan about his packaging after my Uncles pedals arrived beaten to hell and replacement parts were needed. Milan's customer service is excellent. He sent the replacement parts right away and I was able to repair my uncles pedals with ease. Milan did tell me he is going to step up his packaging technique after seeing the pictures I sent him of the damaged parcel my uncle received.

Milans uses high resolution contactless magnetic sensors(digital and analog) and a Cam to control the axis of the yaw. The Toe brakes have super heavy duty adjustable spring tension, pitch and horizontal pedal angel adjustments. Milan's composite material design is also very ridged and strong. I'd like it to be all metal but my guess is that the cost would sky rocket. Neither of these pedals are cheap,Especially if your buying from the US like me. The toe brakes range of motion is really good not too short or too long of travel just right. the yaw axis range of motion is perfect as well, not too short and not too long.

Milans specifications:
http://mfg.simundza.com/mfgcrosswind.php

Milan:
Differential Toe Brakes axes
20 degree of pedal rotation. Reading by hall sensor with resolution of 2048 positions

Adjustable pedals angle
Adjustable pedals angle
From 20 to 52* degree ( set on 20 degree with brakes applied = 0 degree) 52* - can be extended up to 62 degree with additional base plate

Centering spring strenght adjustment
Centering spring strenght adjustment
Fine tuneable

2x positions for centering spring
2x positions for centering spring
To achieve stronger or weaker force toward the end of pedal deflection while force near the center remains

Exchangeable CAM profile
Exchangeable CAM profile
to achieve different centering feel. Pedals come with 2x profiles standard. More profiles will be possible to order to reflect realistic strenght of different aircrafts

Wall spacers
Wall spacers
Adjustable pedal position from the wall

- Rudder Axis - Contactless magnetic sensor with true resolution of 4096 positions
- Adjustable foot plates swivel angle toward outside (watch video)
- 4x different strenght of Toe brakes, adjustable
- Replaceable foot plates with different style. DIY friendly – you can make your own
- Four holes for fixing pedals to any base surface
- Sturdy Composite material construction with some aluminium parts, 17 bearings
- Made by CNC machining to achieve highest acuracy
- Approved to apply 40 kg of force on each foot plate ( In vertical, horizontal or combined direction. Pedals are tested on lot more, but safety limit is 40 kg)
- 12 bit USB Plug and play controller ( resolution of 4096 positions for all axes). Compatible with Win XP/Vista/7
- Pedals include allen hex key for making adjustments and 2m USB cable for PC connection


Slaw uses contactless magnetic sensors(digital) and a stop plate instead of a Cam to control the centering of the yaw axis. Toe breaks have adjustable pitch and the pedals have 3 settings of width adjustment.The springs tension of both the yaw and toe breaks is weaker then I was expecting it to be.
I have to say I was expecting a heavier spring tension with Slaw's pedal but found that even when adding the extra tension spring,the yaw feels quite weak. The toe break tension needs the most work. It is way too weak. Barely resting my foot on the pedals I can feel the pedals tipping downward. The range of motion on both the pedals and yaw axis are well done. Like Milan's I feel both Slaw and milan's pedals have the perfect range of motion.

Slaw specifications:
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3801659/Rudder_Pedals_(_like_BF109F)

axes – 3.
-18+4 ball-bearings.
- possibility of regulation of distance between platforms of pedals – 350 mm. 380 mm. and 410 mm.
- a working course – 160 mm. 175 mm. and 190 mm. respectively.
-a working angle of the wheel brake – 27 degrees
-possibility of regulation of slope angle of a site of a pedal – 30, 37, 44 and 50 degrees.
- length of a site of a pedal – 270, 280 and 290 mm.
-a material – steel, aluminum.
- electronic includes digital and analog sensors based on the effect of magnetic resistance.
-overall dimensions – 460x260x220 mm.
- mass – 6000 grams.


Edited by Slaw (06-26-2013 02:04)



What really separates these pedals apart?

When it come to the Yaw action of the pedal Milan's Cam technique is far superior. The feel has more control and gives a true feel of center. Slaw's pedal relies on a rubber stopper plate in the middle to center the yaw axis. without a Cam this feels a bit awkward and instead of a steady gradual movement the action relies completely on the inadequate spring tension.

Milan's Cam:


Slaw's rubber stopper plate:


My final assessment:

Both pedals sensors are laser accurate in any game or sim. Both pedals were plug in play out of the box. Both pedals are very ridged, sturdy and well built. A dead tie when is comes to sensor accuracy.
Milan's design, over all feel and control is the champion of these 2 great pedals in my opinion.

Slaw's pedals are heavy duty and super ridged. Top notch magnetic frictionless sensors and well built. But the lack of spring tension on both yaw and toe breaks, lack of a cam to control tension(feel)and centering of the yaw axis put his design in 2nd place.
I think if Slaw was to allow for pedal angel adjustment(horizontal), Go to a Cam tension/centering design for the yaw axis and use heavier springs He would have thee best hand made privately produced Rudder pedal on the market.


I just want to thank Slaw and Milan for making such awesome pedals and allowing us flight simmers to have an alternative to the assortment of garbage that's being produced by commercial companies. I had almost given up all hope of being able to enjoy flying with accurate, sturdy, good feeling pedals until I found these guys on the web. Thank you Slaw and Milan for completing the flight sim experience!





I'll be replacing these horrible saitek "combat pedals" with Slaw's pedal at my home in the country.









And I'll continue to use Milans pedals at my primary residence.


Posted By: Slava

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 07:40 AM

Hello everyone, I will correct in pedals Slaw hall sensors are not installed, they installed digital magnetoresistive sensor, sensor accuracy 0.02 degree per 1 report.

Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 02:20 PM

Yes my bad. they are "hal" like magnetic sensors. Zero friction just like hal sensors.
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 03:21 PM

Just FYI - MFG Crosswind use similar magnetoresistive sensor (analog?) for rudder axis - integrated in USB controller - and conventional HALL sensor for brake axis.

Sokol1
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 03:26 PM

If I remember right Milan's are all digital?

either way the sensors on both Slaw and Milan are super accurate and work great.

Both pedals are amazing and show true craftsmanship and Enginuity.
Posted By: Cold_Gambler

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 03:47 PM

Thanks very much for this review Hitman.
I'll eventually be in the market to replace my CH pedals and I've been looking at both of these. Given their cost I never thought I see a side-by-side comparison review. That said, I'm still not sure which I'd go for since it seems like one can't really go wrong with either!
Posted By: Slava

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 03:53 PM

Originally Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1
If I remember right Milan's are all digital?

either way the sensors on both Slaw and Milan are super accurate and work great.

Both pedals are amazing and show true craftsmanship and Enginuity.


All wrong in pedals Milan all analog sensors. And in pedals Slaw all digital sensors, I know better, because I have developed a controller for pedals Slaw.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 04:30 PM

http://mfg.simundza.com/mfgcrosswind.php

Milan:
Differential Toe Brakes axes
20 degree of pedal rotation. Reading by hall sensor with resolution of 2048 positions

Adjustable pedals angle
Adjustable pedals angle
From 20 to 52* degree ( set on 20 degree with brakes applied = 0 degree) 52* - can be extended up to 62 degree with additional base plate

Centering spring strenght adjustment
Centering spring strenght adjustment
Fine tuneable

2x positions for centering spring
2x positions for centering spring
To achieve stronger or weaker force toward the end of pedal deflection while force near the center remains

Exchangeable CAM profile
Exchangeable CAM profile
to achieve different centering feel. Pedals come with 2x profiles standard. More profiles will be possible to order to reflect realistic strenght of different aircrafts

Wall spacers
Wall spacers
Adjustable pedal position from the wall

- Rudder Axis - Contactless magnetic sensor with true resolution of 4096 positions
- Adjustable foot plates swivel angle toward outside (watch video)
- 4x different strenght of Toe brakes, adjustable
- Replaceable foot plates with different style. DIY friendly – you can make your own
- Four holes for fixing pedals to any base surface
- Sturdy Composite material construction with some aluminium parts, 17 bearings
- Made by CNC machining to achieve highest acuracy
- Approved to apply 40 kg of force on each foot plate ( In vertical, horizontal or combined direction. Pedals are tested on lot more, but safety limit is 40 kg)
- 12 bit USB Plug and play controller ( resolution of 4096 positions for all axes). Compatible with Win XP/Vista/7
- Pedals include allen hex key for making adjustments and 2m USB cable for PC connection
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 04:38 PM

Your welcome, I had to replace those saitek combat pedals. they're so bad, horrible.

I really feel like Milan has the best feel and design.


Now if Milan was to make his pedals out of steel opposed to composite material...wow.


If Slaw was to implement a Cam instead of a stop plate...wow...


As they are now, Milan has the best feel of true center and control. The cam is the key to this feeling of center and control. the Cam also creates a progressive tension.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 04:39 PM

not according to Milan:

read his specs. Hall digital for toe breaks. Magnetic frictionless for Yaw axis.
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 09:55 PM

Quote:
All wrong in pedals Milan all analog sensors. And in pedals Slaw all digital sensors, I know better, because I have developed a controller for pedals Slaw.


Originally Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1
not according to Milan:

read his specs. Hall digital for toe breaks. Magnetic frictionless for Yaw axis.


Both pedals use for Yaw (rudder axis) similar kind of magnetic sensor (Magnetic Field Sensor) (1)- the difference is that Slava (Komaroff?) sensor communication (BUS) with the USB controller is done in digital mode (binary code) due use of ADC (converter) integrated in sensor PCB.

In Milan pedals the communication is done in analog way (voltage variation) - like a pot' - both for Yaw and Toe Brakes.

In Tm T.16000M and Warthog the HALL sensor use communicate in digital mode.

(1) In general terms, the basic difference between HALL sensor and Magnetic Field Sensor (used in automotive industry) is the way that magnetic field is used.
HALL measured the force or magnetic field, Magnetic Field Sensor measured his direction, this make then less susceptible to interferences.

Of course the Magnetic Field Sensor in digital mode is a more refined solution. wink

H1TMAN_ACTUA1

You are the person to say if this "digital x analog" make differences in real use (games), since own both types. smile

Sokol1
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/08/14 10:19 PM

Thanks for that explanation and details of how those sensors work.
All in all the accuracy of the sensors no one can tell the difference when flying. Both are super accurate and both pedals sensors are high quality whether or not it's analog or digital. The actual mechanics (action of movement) is what separates these pedals apart. not the sensors.

If you were to ask me "Does the Saitek X55 throttle feel more responsive or as accurate as the TM. Warthog throttle" Id say no, they both have the same responsiveness. The warthog uses Hal sensors and the x55 throttle is analog. No one can tell or feel the difference in that. I can go on and on about the x55/warthog. Both are great and I'm really in the middle with both of those. I can say I like the feel and button layout of the x55 throttle better then the warthog thottle.

The fact that Milan's cam design works better and allows the true feel of centering and progresive tension is what makes this pedal the winner. When it comes down to it, the mechanics of the action is what seperates these two pedals apart.


I
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/19/14 12:52 AM

Finally made it out to the my place in the country and with great excitement have finally ditched those horrible saitek combat pedals.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/19/14 04:15 PM

The more I use Slaw pedals the more I wish I had just bought another pair of Milans.

2 different worlds when it come to these pedals. I can't say enough of the cam.

The rang of motion is too long on Slaw pedal as well.
Posted By: Komaroff

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/30/14 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Sokol1
...Both pedals use for Yaw (rudder axis) similar kind of magnetic sensor (Magnetic Field Sensor) (1)- the difference is that Slava (Komaroff?) sensor communication (BUS) with the USB controller is done in digital mode (binary code) due use of ADC (converter) integrated in sensor PCB...
(1) In general terms, the basic difference between HALL sensor and Magnetic Field Sensor (used in automotive industry) is the way that magnetic field is used.
HALL measured the force or magnetic field, Magnetic Field Sensor measured his direction, this make then less susceptible to interferences.
Of course the Magnetic Field Sensor in digital mode is a more refined solution. wink
...
Sokol1

Hi.
No. I'm not Slava. Slava has developed the controller.
Yes. Magnetic resistors react only to a magnetic field direction.
In my sensor (Rotary Angle Magnet Sensor - R.A.M.S.) the magnetoresistive technology with special mathematical digital processing of signals is used. It allows to have considerably more a straight-line characteristic, than at classical Hall-sensors (for example SS495A). Besides RAMS have easier installation and adjustment of a sensor control and tolerance to external influences. Output - digital.

To learn and successfully to fly in simulators it is possible on nonlinear sensors (for example Hall-sensors on Saitek X52). But modern digital sensors are in addition to the advanced functional advantages also a question of prestige, aspiration to perfection.
I think, what exactly therefore Slaw has chosen my sensors for installation in his pedals.
If not to go into detail of configuration of pedals Slaw, that, undoubtedly, contactless digital magnetoresistive sensors are one of highlights of these pedals.
About RAMS (rus)
Best regards.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/30/14 04:07 PM

Yah saitek, slaw, milan, thrustmaster I think no one can tell the difference in sensor accuracy when flying. Looking at a graph and the feel of the device when flying or 2 different things.


The focus of my review is the overall feel and performance of the pedals. Milan's design blow's slaw's cam less design away.
Posted By: Komaroff

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 07/30/14 04:47 PM

Originally Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1
Yah saitek, slaw, milan, thrustmaster I think no one can tell the difference in sensor accuracy when flying. Looking at a graph and the feel of the device when flying or 2 different things...

You are absolutely right.
Originally Posted By: Komaroff
...
To learn and successfully to fly in simulators it is possible on nonlinear sensors (for example Hall-sensors on Saitek X52)...

Just details of an electronic stuffing of pedals too matter for a complete picture of the review. Even if it is not visible at first. I always try to evaluate the device from different angles.
Great review and comparison. Thank you.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/05/14 01:14 AM

Hi All
I wanted to thank H1TMAN_ACTUA1 for making a comparison of rudder pedals. Due to price of both pedals I never thought someone will buy both and compare :-) Now I'm glad someone did.

I belive review is honest opinion from a user perspective, not going into technical details about sensor type.
I also agree with a few statements here, that such resolution cannot be percieved by a human leg. My belief is that very well trained Human leg can only make precise movements of about 2000 positions across rudder movement range...that is why reviewer did not notice any difference while flying...if there is any difference anyway.

About sensors and electronics.


I've seen a lot of writing about electronics and sensors here, so I want to make a few clarifications.

MFG Crosswind rudder pedals still use:
- GVL224 electronics , a proven manufacturer also producing for Baur BRD...reason why I choose him is because his device is already sucessfully used over 3 years now without complaints.
- Rudder axis - Analog magnetoresistive senosor KMZ41 - implemented on main PCB
- Brake axis - Analog Hall sensor Allegro A1302
- Since 01.10.2013 Firmware and software for pedals is produced by MFG team, while GVL224 provide only electronics

In a few words...komaroff did a honorable job of producing digital sensor, but it is NOT better, or worse than my existing analog sensor. I never tried Komaroff sensor myself, and I don't know what actual magnetoresistive sensor and signal conditioning IC komaroff use...but I can tell such statement on the following arguments :

- Komaroff probably use same analog KMZ41, but with signal conditioning IC that provide digital 3 wire PWM output
( possible that I'm wrong, and komaroff use Austrian microsystems sensor, type I can only speculate since it's not published).

In any case...whatever sensor Komaroff use...It probably was on my testbed during last year. I've tried industry finest solution for development of my own electronics and I can tell you a few words about it :
- I did not find sensor with precision capable to sense any better than 0.022 degree of rotation...no sensor can do that. Transfered into raw positions in windows...this mean 45,45 values per degree of rotation.

Now...let's get back to mechanical design of the pedals to see how this compares. I give you a simple drawing

Purpose of this picture : Assuming both mechanical pedal styles have EQUAL WIDTH, and EQUAL RUDDER RANGE,...design with narrow parralelogram principle - like MFG Crosswind - has almost DOUBLE rotation on rudder axis

Now...let's get this into REAL RESOLUTION ACHIEVED BY BEST SENSORS IN THE WORLD, IN OPTIMAL CONDITIONS
MFG Crosswind rudder principle = 34 degree x 2 = 68 degree x 45,45 positions = approx 3090 TRUE POSITIONS
Other style rudder pedals ( baloo, slaw, simped etc.) = 18 degree x 2 = 36 x 45,45 positions = approx 1636 TRUE POSITIONS

NOTE : I'm not claiming that my pedals rotate 68 degrees, or that slaws rotate 36 degrees... I draw IMAGINED characteristics of both pedal style to clarify importance of mechanical design.
Don't forget that I've just revealed one of many secrets that MFG Crosswind design has in it's sleeve...just for clarification purpose. I hope it's secret well published.


ANALOG VS DIGITAL
Which one is better depend on a purpose of a sensor and sensor distance from ADC ( analog to digital conversion ).
In a perfect enviroment there is no difference, but analog signal can pick up noise on it's way to ADC if there are possible disturbances...so if signal travel longer distance - digital is better ( MFG pedals sensor is on PCB..therefore travel only few centimeters, brake sensors use best quality shielded cable)
Digital also has advantage over analog in cases where sensors are powered with unregulated voltage because voltage drift will also affect sensor reading - solved by supply voltage regulation
However, nothing can beat the speed of analog signal and a fast ADC chip

For the purpose of comparison...every sensing element...hall or magnetoresistive...is measured in Analog domain, goes trough Analog to digital conversion ( ADC) and in trough some sort of signal conditioning threatment...le't draw a simple flowchart of that magnet position to our joystick reading conversion

Gain amplifier
: used to amplify signat that hall or magnetoresistive element pick up. Most sensors have it fixed so such sensors have FIXED MAGNETIC SENSITIVITY. Some sensors can program Gain in factory, or even reprogram gain amplifier strenght "on the fly" ( like MLX 90363 )
MCU - Microcontroller, main chip to communicate with USB...can be poor or a solid good one, can have integrated various functions such as 10bit, 12bit, or even 16bit ADC unit, other communication protocols for digital sensors, buttons, etc.
ADC - analog to digital converter
DAC - digital to analog converter
PWM - pulse width modulation

CLASSIC HALL SENSOR ( Allegro A1302 or similar)
Hall element - gain amp. - ratiometric or linear voltage output ( analog) - ADC - Signal conditioning (on MCU) - USB output

Classic automotive setup KMZ41 magnetoresistive sensor - analog output
dual magnetoresistive bridge - 2x signal analog output ( sine and cosine) --- //chip with gain amp., ADC - conditioning - DAC analog output // ---wire ---- ADC( on MCU) - USB output

Classic automotive setup KMZ41 magnetoresistive sensor - digital PWM output
same as analog, but signal output from signal conditioning chip is not analog but 3 wire PWM signal...so there is no ADC conversion on main MCU

Alternative setup for KMZ41 - rely on usage of smart, powerful MCU
dual magnetoresistive bridge - 2x signal analog output - 2x gain amplifier - 2x ADC input on main MCU - powerfull signal conditioning on main MCU - USB output


There are other sensors , like NXP KMA200 magnetoresistor, or Melexis MLX90363...which have both sensing element, gain amplifier, ADC, signal conditioning on a single chip...and can give analog, PWM or SPI output toward MCU.

SPI is very intresting protocol. It is also DIGITAL, but these sensors can also communicate in BOTH WAYS....so signal is not just OUTPUT...but main MCU can communicate and change settings directly ON SENSOR.

There are other possibilities, but I will not complicate things even more :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAGNETORESISTOR VS. CLASSIC HALL ... magnetoresistor is better in most situations
MAGNETORESISTOR VS Melexis 3d Hall ---- MELEXIS IS BETTER !!!!

Reason is very simple. While magnetoresistors do measure angle of magnetic field, which is better than classic hall, they output signal using fixed gain amplifiers. However...signal output values CHANGE WHEN MAGNET DISTANCE CHANGED !!!!...which make magnetoresistor very sensitive to mechanical tolerance of a device

MELEXIS 3d HALL technology is BETTER as sensory is truthly smart. It has automatic gain control. It has multiple hall elements to measure magnetic field trough three axis. For example...if magnet distance changes sensor will only pick up more or less noise...but actual output values WILL NOT CHANGE !!!
Due to built in formulas for compensation it is also better for DIY..as it tolerate more misalignment of magnet and sensor
It is possible to use stronger magnets at only 1mm distance from sensor. In that case automatic gain will be automaticly reduced to minimum...so sensor is less likely to pick up magnetic disturbances than other sensors...my test show that in such setup MLX90363 sensor don't pick up disturbance of a moving M10 bolt on a distance of only 3 cm !!!!...mission impossible for other tested sensors.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You probably guessed it so far....that I've chosen digital sensor MLX90363 for my new electronics which should be ready soon.
My choice for a such Next generation sensor is because it can also serve in various other situations...Joystick for example :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I already see a question comming up something like :
What is the difference of MFG Crossind pedals with New Digital sensor VS current magnetoresistive sensor ??

Answer is : almost NONE !!!!
To explain myself. New digital sensor MLX 90363 has built in automatic gain, temperature reading, noise filtering, hysteresis filtering, also smaller non linearity error on a sensor itself...can read angles up to 360 degrees...but what does that all mean for end user of MFG Crossind rudder pedals - NOTHING...since these features are already built in my current firmware. If you followed how sensor to USB workflow is going...you probably guessed it right...very powerfull MCU does all the job for analog sensor...while next gen digital trixis hall does it all itselff, unleashing the power of MCU for other operations

Truth be told.... I AM THE ONE TO BENEFIT FROM NEW SENSOR BECAUSE :
- I will not have worry about centering magnet as I do now :-)
- no worries about small magnet displacement - now I have to be very carefull
- no worries about magnet distance...now I need to be very very very carefull about that :-)

END user...will not notice digital VS analog sensor...won't see a difference


Happy simming to you all
Milan
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/05/14 05:16 AM

Wow thank you for that coherent Break down and bravo to your enginuity!
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/05/14 05:53 PM

Thanks
For people who want to know deeper on a subject, "hempstead", creator of hempstick recently published a nice document on resolution here
http://www.hempstick.org/download/articles/OnResolution.pdf

I've wrote a few more words on top of that article in hempstick thread at DCS...explaining in plain language how to extract more juice from a limited sensor or ADC
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=126772&page=4
Posted By: Komaroff

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/06/14 04:58 PM

Hi all.
Yes, I use KMZ41 bridge together with DSP chip.
One of options of GVL224 electronics supports my sensors.
But the controller from Slava which is mounted in Slaws pedals, has some advantages.
My sensor (RAMS) is better than analog (much more linear), beginning from full angles of 20 degrees.
Resolution of the RAMS sensor 8191 digits (13 bits) on 180 degrees (0.022 degrees on 1 digit, or 45.45 digits on degree). Such as at the KMA200 sensor.
The digital signal is transmitted on the single-wire interface (not PWM).
I can be mistaken, but at Slava's pedals probably an angle of rotation of 60 degrees.
KMZ41 practically shouldn't depend on distance to a magnet (by design). If to change distance to a magnet and a signal is changed, it means that in a place of a sensor the direction of a magnetic field exchanged. It turns out the human factor.
Best regards.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/06/14 05:31 PM

Nice kimaroff,

I whish your sensors made Slaw pedals feel better though. He needs to rework his design. He needs to implement a Cam system or they'll never feel right.
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/06/14 06:07 PM

And at end, controllers resolution is not all.

The actual "Hartmann" of WWII sim multiplayer combat, Mk.Mr.X use:

Quote:
CH Fighterstick&ProPedal


An old USB 1.1, 8 bits (256 resolution points) electronics.

BTW- I dont know if in standard form or "modernized" (contactless sensor) ones...

smile


Sokol1
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/06/14 06:50 PM

Propedal are really bad....
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/07/14 12:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Komaroff

Yes, I use KMZ41 bridge together with DSP chip.
One of options of GVL224 electronics supports my sensors.
But the controller from Slava which is mounted in Slaws pedals, has some advantages.
My sensor (RAMS) is better than analog (much more linear), beginning from full angles of 20 degrees.
Resolution of the RAMS sensor 8191 digits (13 bits) on 180 degrees (0.022 degrees on 1 digit, or 45.45 digits on degree). Such as at the KMA200 sensor.
The digital signal is transmitted on the single-wire interface (not PWM).


Digital signal processor chip instead of using original NXP :-) I admire your work, honorable :-)
To compare your and mine solution in a signal flow :
YOUR : KMZ41 > analog signal on PCB traces > DSP > === Digital output Single-wire interface > MCU > USB
MINE : KMZ41 > analog signal on PCB traces > MCU ( doing DSP job )> USB

My solution don't have MCU with dedicated DSP...but integration for only 3x axes is OK . Your solution is better in many cases as MCU don't need much power...or can drive many "RAMS" axis without impact on performance. True, you can also improve linearity with DSP chip better than I can on MCU ( without dedicated DSP)...but if user wish to extract more resolution for small angle of rotation I belive my solution is better ( I mean by overampling, averaging, digital low pass...).

Originally Posted By: Komaroff

KMZ41 practically shouldn't depend on distance to a magnet (by design). If to change distance to a magnet and a signal is changed, it means that in a place of a sensor the direction of a magnetic field exchanged. It turns out the human factor.
Best regards.


True...in theory only nonlinearity error of cca 1-2 degree should happen while changing the air gap between magnet and sensor.
In practice...offset error, smaller or bigger air gap error and magnet not perfectly parralel to sensor surface is a reality. I assemble pedals with my hands, I am not a robot...so yes...human factor :-)
Trouble is if magnet not parralel to sensor...so sensor start to pick up Z axis of magnetic field and measure it...therefore airgap change make more difference than in datasheet :-) I have to plug the device in USB...check if it's within tolerance...if not...readjust...time consuming job to make it right :-(...and I do it almost daily. Imagine someone doing it for a first time...magnetoresistive sensor and classic hall very tricky to adjust....triaxis...EASY.

That's why I've choosen MLX90363. Among other things visible from datasheet it's very tolerant for magnet misalignment with minimal loss in linearity. Various magnet size and shape can be used at various airgaps, affordable...single chip solution. Only bad side of this sensor is that it require 6 wires for SPI, and yours need only 3x wires.


Originally Posted By: Sokol1

And at end, controllers resolution is not all.

The actual "Hartmann" of WWII sim multiplayer combat, Mk.Mr.X use:

Quote:
CH Fighterstick&ProPedal


An old USB 1.1, 8 bits (256 resolution points) electronics.

BTW- I dont know if in standard form or "modernized" (contactless sensor) ones...


resolution is not all, specially if mechanics are poor so you can't controll all that resolution :-)
To win a dogfight there are at least 10 more important things than a good high resolution flight controls...but here we speak about suberp flight controls which will only make a difference in compbat between similary skilled pilots.
Aim for bigger resolution is a result of devotion to perfection, its like addiction :-)
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/07/14 03:48 AM

Yes, since few out there are "Mk.Mr.X", the rest of us need a superb controls.
Keep the good work. wink

Sokol1
Posted By: Komaroff

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/07/14 07:55 AM

Hi.
Discussion about what minimum resolution has to be ("must have") is a Holy War.
The majority agrees that 1000 counting on an axis - is enough.
The bigger quantity is an obvious surplus. There is no need for bigger resolution.
The advantage of RAMS and Melexis sensors - the increased linearity and simplicity of installation for assembly in comparison with analog magnetoresistors (see cunnings of installation of analog sensors, their trickies :)) .

Therefore, having reached 1000 counting on an axis (for RAMS - 1000(counts) / 45 (counts/degree) < 23 degrees on an axis), the digital sensor become more preferable.

In addition. Analog magnetoresistors have temperature drift (for example for KMZ41 about 4 percent on 10 degrees Celsius) as the functionality of a chip is used not completely. In the RAMS sensor temperature drift is compensated mathematically because the full functionality of a chip is used.

The errors arising because of inaccuracy of installation of magnets any mathematics completely can't eliminate. Both RAMS, and Melexis. Happiness that these residual errors are rather small smile
As a result, for considered digital sensors, discussion can go only about "3-wire (totally) vs 6-wire interfaces".
Best regards.
Posted By: Slaw

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/08/14 08:38 PM

Originally Posted By: milan_croatia
Hi All
I wanted to thank H1TMAN_ACTUA1 for making a comparison of rudder pedals. Due to price of both pedals I never thought someone will buy both and compare :-) Now I'm glad someone did.

I belive review is honest opinion from a user perspective, not going into technical details about sensor type.
I also agree with a few statements here, that such resolution cannot be percieved by a human leg. My belief is that very well trained Human leg can only make precise movements of about 2000 positions across rudder movement range...that is why reviewer did not notice any difference while flying...if there is any difference anyway.

About sensors and electronics.


I've seen a lot of writing about electronics and sensors here, so I want to make a few clarifications.

MFG Crosswind rudder pedals still use:
- GVL224 electronics , a proven manufacturer also producing for Baur BRD...reason why I choose him is because his device is already sucessfully used over 3 years now without complaints.
- Rudder axis - Analog magnetoresistive senosor KMZ41 - implemented on main PCB
- Brake axis - Analog Hall sensor Allegro A1302
- Since 01.10.2013 Firmware and software for pedals is produced by MFG team, while GVL224 provide only electronics

In a few words...komaroff did a honorable job of producing digital sensor, but it is NOT better, or worse than my existing analog sensor. I never tried Komaroff sensor myself, and I don't know what actual magnetoresistive sensor and signal conditioning IC komaroff use...but I can tell such statement on the following arguments :

- Komaroff probably use same analog KMZ41, but with signal conditioning IC that provide digital 3 wire PWM output
( possible that I'm wrong, and komaroff use Austrian microsystems sensor, type I can only speculate since it's not published).

In any case...whatever sensor Komaroff use...It probably was on my testbed during last year. I've tried industry finest solution for development of my own electronics and I can tell you a few words about it :
- I did not find sensor with precision capable to sense any better than 0.022 degree of rotation...no sensor can do that. Transfered into raw positions in windows...this mean 45,45 values per degree of rotation.

Now...let's get back to mechanical design of the pedals to see how this compares. I give you a simple drawing

Purpose of this picture : Assuming both mechanical pedal styles have EQUAL WIDTH, and EQUAL RUDDER RANGE,...design with narrow parralelogram principle - like MFG Crosswind - has almost DOUBLE rotation on rudder axis

Now...let's get this into REAL RESOLUTION ACHIEVED BY BEST SENSORS IN THE WORLD, IN OPTIMAL CONDITIONS
MFG Crosswind rudder principle = 34 degree x 2 = 68 degree x 45,45 positions = approx 3090 TRUE POSITIONS
Other style rudder pedals ( baloo, slaw, simped etc.) = 18 degree x 2 = 36 x 45,45 positions = approx 1636 TRUE POSITIONS

NOTE : I'm not claiming that my pedals rotate 68 degrees, or that slaws rotate 36 degrees... I draw IMAGINED characteristics of both pedal style to clarify importance of mechanical design.
Don't forget that I've just revealed one of many secrets that MFG Crosswind design has in it's sleeve...just for clarification purpose. I hope it's secret well published.


ANALOG VS DIGITAL
Which one is better depend on a purpose of a sensor and sensor distance from ADC ( analog to digital conversion ).
In a perfect enviroment there is no difference, but analog signal can pick up noise on it's way to ADC if there are possible disturbances...so if signal travel longer distance - digital is better ( MFG pedals sensor is on PCB..therefore travel only few centimeters, brake sensors use best quality shielded cable)
Digital also has advantage over analog in cases where sensors are powered with unregulated voltage because voltage drift will also affect sensor reading - solved by supply voltage regulation
However, nothing can beat the speed of analog signal and a fast ADC chip

For the purpose of comparison...every sensing element...hall or magnetoresistive...is measured in Analog domain, goes trough Analog to digital conversion ( ADC) and in trough some sort of signal conditioning threatment...le't draw a simple flowchart of that magnet position to our joystick reading conversion

Gain amplifier
: used to amplify signat that hall or magnetoresistive element pick up. Most sensors have it fixed so such sensors have FIXED MAGNETIC SENSITIVITY. Some sensors can program Gain in factory, or even reprogram gain amplifier strenght "on the fly" ( like MLX 90363 )
MCU - Microcontroller, main chip to communicate with USB...can be poor or a solid good one, can have integrated various functions such as 10bit, 12bit, or even 16bit ADC unit, other communication protocols for digital sensors, buttons, etc.
ADC - analog to digital converter
DAC - digital to analog converter
PWM - pulse width modulation

CLASSIC HALL SENSOR ( Allegro A1302 or similar)
Hall element - gain amp. - ratiometric or linear voltage output ( analog) - ADC - Signal conditioning (on MCU) - USB output

Classic automotive setup KMZ41 magnetoresistive sensor - analog output
dual magnetoresistive bridge - 2x signal analog output ( sine and cosine) --- //chip with gain amp., ADC - conditioning - DAC analog output // ---wire ---- ADC( on MCU) - USB output

Classic automotive setup KMZ41 magnetoresistive sensor - digital PWM output
same as analog, but signal output from signal conditioning chip is not analog but 3 wire PWM signal...so there is no ADC conversion on main MCU

Alternative setup for KMZ41 - rely on usage of smart, powerful MCU
dual magnetoresistive bridge - 2x signal analog output - 2x gain amplifier - 2x ADC input on main MCU - powerfull signal conditioning on main MCU - USB output


There are other sensors , like NXP KMA200 magnetoresistor, or Melexis MLX90363...which have both sensing element, gain amplifier, ADC, signal conditioning on a single chip...and can give analog, PWM or SPI output toward MCU.

SPI is very intresting protocol. It is also DIGITAL, but these sensors can also communicate in BOTH WAYS....so signal is not just OUTPUT...but main MCU can communicate and change settings directly ON SENSOR.

There are other possibilities, but I will not complicate things even more :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAGNETORESISTOR VS. CLASSIC HALL ... magnetoresistor is better in most situations
MAGNETORESISTOR VS Melexis 3d Hall ---- MELEXIS IS BETTER !!!!

Reason is very simple. While magnetoresistors do measure angle of magnetic field, which is better than classic hall, they output signal using fixed gain amplifiers. However...signal output values CHANGE WHEN MAGNET DISTANCE CHANGED !!!!...which make magnetoresistor very sensitive to mechanical tolerance of a device

MELEXIS 3d HALL technology is BETTER as sensory is truthly smart. It has automatic gain control. It has multiple hall elements to measure magnetic field trough three axis. For example...if magnet distance changes sensor will only pick up more or less noise...but actual output values WILL NOT CHANGE !!!
Due to built in formulas for compensation it is also better for DIY..as it tolerate more misalignment of magnet and sensor
It is possible to use stronger magnets at only 1mm distance from sensor. In that case automatic gain will be automaticly reduced to minimum...so sensor is less likely to pick up magnetic disturbances than other sensors...my test show that in such setup MLX90363 sensor don't pick up disturbance of a moving M10 bolt on a distance of only 3 cm !!!!...mission impossible for other tested sensors.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You probably guessed it so far....that I've chosen digital sensor MLX90363 for my new electronics which should be ready soon.
My choice for a such Next generation sensor is because it can also serve in various other situations...Joystick for example :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I already see a question comming up something like :
What is the difference of MFG Crossind pedals with New Digital sensor VS current magnetoresistive sensor ??

Answer is : almost NONE !!!!
To explain myself. New digital sensor MLX 90363 has built in automatic gain, temperature reading, noise filtering, hysteresis filtering, also smaller non linearity error on a sensor itself...can read angles up to 360 degrees...but what does that all mean for end user of MFG Crossind rudder pedals - NOTHING...since these features are already built in my current firmware. If you followed how sensor to USB workflow is going...you probably guessed it right...very powerfull MCU does all the job for analog sensor...while next gen digital trixis hall does it all itselff, unleashing the power of MCU for other operations

Truth be told.... I AM THE ONE TO BENEFIT FROM NEW SENSOR BECAUSE :
- I will not have worry about centering magnet as I do now :-)
- no worries about small magnet displacement - now I have to be very carefull
- no worries about magnet distance...now I need to be very very very carefull about that :-)

END user...will not notice digital VS analog sensor...won't see a difference


Happy simming to you all
Milan

Hi, all.
I do not want to answer, but the truth - this is important.
First, the angle of my pedals + - 30 degrees. Milan properly written, 45.45 X but on 60 degrees (+-30) in my pedals.
This gives 2730 TRUE STABLE POSITIONS.
KMZ41 works at an angle in analog of 45 degrees.
If you have a 68 degrees, then your working angle artificially increased (stretched) from 45 degrees to 68 degrees - ie 51 per cent.This means that your calculations should be reduced by 33% (3090 TRUE YOURS POSITIONS = 2060 POSITIONS).Other positions - virtual.Even the sensor readings in my brake pedals will be better because I now only use digital sensors from Komaroff in conjunction with the controller of the Red Baron.
Show the test of your pedals in JoyTester2, and in DIView with the calibration is disabled like me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oSbSgGDQe8. And try to like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjClrNbZVNI.This will show the whole truth.
Sorry for my English.
Good luck.
SlawDevice.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/08/14 10:33 PM

My Review derailed by sensor talk.
Posted By: Komaroff

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/10/14 12:40 PM

Originally Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1
My Review derailed by sensor talk.

H1TMAN_ACTUA1. Sorry.
Just users are able to see with their own eyes the look of the pedals. But don't know about advantages of electronics installed in different pedals.
Therefore we had to fill this lack and to tell about details of electronics of reviewed pedals.
Thanks to all.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/10/14 03:58 PM

Sorry H1TMAN_ACTUA1. There was some hype about sensors here so, like Komaroff said, some clarification was necessary.
I promise this is my last post about it. I won't be able to reply anyway as Croatian National glider's championship just started, and it's my duty at the club to tug gliders ( so I'll be "out of virtual" and "back to real" flying for most of my day).

My conclusion is there are differences in electronics, but electronics in both pedals are more superior than users ability to react...so real life electronics performance difference user will not be capable to notice while flying.
@Komaroff - This is not a place for a wider discussion about sensors. If you want we both continue to discuss and share our findings about sensors honestly and publicly as we did here...I suggest another thread to be opened for that subject.
Originally Posted By: Slaw

If you have a 68 degrees, then your working angle artificially increased (stretched) from 45 degrees to 68 degrees - ie 51 per cent.This means that your calculations should be reduced by 33% (3090 TRUE YOURS POSITIONS = 2060 POSITIONS).Other positions - virtual

I have to quote myself here...about drawing I published :
"NOTE : I'm not claiming that my pedals rotate 68 degrees, or that slaws rotate 36 degrees... I draw IMAGINED characteristics of both pedal style to clarify importance of mechanical design."

MFG Crosswind angle of rotation = +- 36 degrees ( 72 degrees total) x 45,45 = 3272 true positions without calibration. +- few positions because of tolerance in mechanical stops.
I don't understand your calculation...but KMZ41 measure +-45 degree in analog mode = TRUE...if only half output is used ( sin or cos output).
If you use -+30 degree angle like you say... your pedals have "longer throw" - more rudder movement to achieve that resolution. I will quote H1TMAN_ACTUA1 for that :
Originally Posted By: Slaw

The rang of motion is too long on Slaw pedal as well

Conclusion - MFG Crosswind has more resolution on shorter pedals throw (3272) than slaw on Long throw (2730)
Originally Posted By: Slaw

Show the test of your pedals in JoyTester2, and in DIView with the calibration is disabled like me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oSbSgGDQe8. And try to like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjClrNbZVNI.This will show the whole truth.

Calibration can be disabled trough MFG Configurator software. I've made it possible for easy servicing if there will ever be a need for that.

I would really like that someone of my customers turn calibration OFF...and confirm that my resolution reading on rudder axis is correct - to add credibility to my words here.
Also..On your other video...I would also like someone of my customers to :
- take spring off
- move rudder slowly by one increment so it clearly show that every increment of resolution is shown when calibration is off -approx 3272 positons
- to prove when calibration is turned ON...every increment of resolution is shown - FULL 4096 position !!!!...nothing skipped
- to prove that readings are noisless when filtering is set = 2

I hope H1TMAN_ACTUA1 can make such job...he is a right person and can repeat test on BOTH pedals, write results...so we can close this disscusion!

P.S. Another real world review was just published. Helo's are not my thing...but it's really a nice videov by "Dslyecxi"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh_5keOriIo
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/10/14 07:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Komaroff
Originally Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1
My Review derailed by sensor talk.

H1TMAN_ACTUA1. Sorry.
Just users are able to see with their own eyes the look of the pedals. But don't know about advantages of electronics installed in different pedals.
Therefore we had to fill this lack and to tell about details of electronics of reviewed pedals.
Thanks to all.


that's great and all but No sim pilot is going to feel the difference in sensor accuracy difference between these pedals and senors is not the main focusing point of my thread and review.

Please make your own thread about detailed sensors.
Posted By: Komaroff

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/16/14 08:21 PM

Hi all.
I think we need to stay in more detail on the details of the sensors.
Therefore, at the request of H1TMAN_ACTUA1, I opened a new topic about the sensors of these pedals.
Slaw vs. Milan the battle of electronics of pedals. Digital vs analog
Milan good luck in the championship.
Special thanks to Slaw, milan_croatia, H1TMAN_ACTUA1, Sokol1 for an interesting discussion.
Best regards.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/09/14 03:28 PM

These pedals have been sold. Going to back to using Saitek Combat pro at my 2nd residence.

These are not worth $580+ UDS.

I hope the new user finds these more appealing then I did.
Posted By: SAPPER

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/10/14 07:27 AM

Hi H1TMAN,

May I wask what changed in your opinion of the Slaw pedals. You seemed preaty happy with them at first. And even though you expressed preference for Milan's. You had indicated that Slaw's were an awesome piece of hardware in their own right. So... What changed if you don't mind me asking?
Posted By: Slaw

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/10/14 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1
These pedals have been sold. Going to back to using Saitek Combat pro at my 2nd residence.

These are not worth $580+ UDS.

I hope the new user finds these more appealing then I did.


You paid me for pedals 346.45 euros on my bank account and 29 euros on paypal. In total, 375.45 euro. That is about 485-490 dollars. $ 580 + UDS????
If you do not mind, I'll show here, these banking and PayPal operations.


SlawDevice
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/10/14 01:42 PM

Slaw,

you coerced me not to use paypal. Would you like me to post our entire email chain? I don't think so.

You coerced me not to use paypal because you were going on vacation and didn't want to wait for paypal to send the money to your bank account.


So to make YOU happy I did the USD to Euro conversion on google($510.68 USD at that time), my bank charged me $45 to send that wire BTW directly to Your bank, then your bank chanrged you a convergence fee and you ended up being short, then blamed that on me. I should have made you eat that! Since I wanted to use paypal from the get go.

So then I said ok. NOW I'm going to use paypal to make up for the difference that you didn't account for with your own bank. This BTW is why I wanted to use Paypal from the get go. I think this is why Milan uses Paypal as well.

So I send the remaining balance via paypal and pay another fee for the USD to Euro convergence.

after multiple fees I spent exactly ($510.68+$45=$555.68(bank-fee+wire) add paypal $42.58= grand total $598.26 USD) for your pedals That I feel the more I use them the more I regret buying and spending that much money on something that feels far under par to Milans MFG. pedals. Id rather sell your pedals, go back to using the crappy saitek combat pro pedals again and get some of my money back.

Now that's how I really feel and what really happened. I spared you my REAL opinion after posting that I'm selling but since you want to get defensive and question why I'm selling your pedals and how much I paid for them. I'm putting you on full blast now.

Despite all that BS I went through with banks, wires, fee's and more fee's I gave a fair and honest review of your pedals. Having used them now for a longer period of time I really think you need to go back to the drawing board, Because let me tell you something. Milan's MFG's own your sub par pedals.


I say this to all you Simmers looking to buy an expensive pair of pedals. Buy Milans and you'll have no hassles or worries..You'll get what you pay for. As for slaw the purchasing experience was bad and the user experience is not worth the premium price tag.

I think stating that I'm going to go back to using Saitek combat pro pedals speaks for itself.

Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/12/14 05:12 PM

No Response Slaw?

Would you like me the post thee entire email chain?
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/12/14 06:29 PM

Uhhh....things are getting "ugly" in this thread :-(

-----------------------------------------------
@Komaroff and Troll : I belive you ment on Croatian National Glider's Championship. No need to thank me... I'm just a lucky bloke who happen to be a tug pilot to tug these gliders( interpretation : Fly from dawn to dusk and do whatevery crazy manouvers I like for free :-)
------------------------------------------------

About H1TMAN_ACTUA1's experience with slaw's.... I would like to add my comments there :


As I said before I never tested Slaw pedals, but only by looking at the pictures I can write thing or two about your case here, as well as my experience as a producer

- When I started selling MFG Crosswind I also asked money in advance on my bank account from customers...probably for same reasons as slaw - to get me money up front so I can buy materials for pedals ( paypal hold money for 30 days).
- I also advise my customers overseas to use paypal or western union. This is specialy true for customers from Australia who payed by bank transfer. They paid all transfer fees but due to the fact that money is transfered trough "intermediate" banks in europe additional charges apear. Unfortunately...when customer send money he, or his bank, cannot know how big will fees be...or will they happen at all :-(.... So , in cases where paypal is not an option it is best to use Western Union or similar for overseas payments because fees are known up front.
I also went into that "trap" because of lack of experience, probably same reason as Slaw. With experience things get better and good communication and explanation with customers is a way to get things sorted. I didn't ask customers to make additional payment...they are not the ones to blaim. It's me to blaim that I let them make such payments in a first place. I also gave my first customers a special lower price for their risks of being first and all things that that fact implies. I belive that is fair.

- My first customers also had some issues with pedals not recognised in "wings over flanders fields", some conflicts with Xbox one controller. I worked hard and solved these issues as fast as possible. It is important thing to say that pedals are not to blame...it's how these games are coded to blame ( underlying Microsoft CFS3 game engine) but I did my best to overcome those issues. It is also important to say that my customers were in communication with me all the time so they did not panic about it but gave me constructive e-mails about their problem which led to solutions. I wrote about these problems before in my SimHQ development thread as well as on ROF forum to give slaw a "clue" how to solve a compatibility problem.

- about value of pedals, or "bang for a buck". I belive both Slaw pedals and my Crosswinds are worth every penny and more. To understand why I have such opinion on slaw pedals just by looking at the pictures you need to understnad how things are made and how much difference it is to make small batch custom product compared to serial production of cheap crap stuff in China. To give you a hint...check pricing of any specialist mechanical part for some machine or similar. Real value of our MFG or Slaw, considering quality and quantity produced, is more like 1000-1500 dollars. Both me and Slaw consider this a hobby first, not a business, trying to give you best price possible. I don't want to go deeper here, how quantity dictate prices when buying parts for pedals, how many hours of electronics development, CNC cost, etc. I just give yuo a glimpse to understand why price is not a rip off...so you will understand better why Slaw wanted to "buy back" his own product from you. My best guess is that slaw belive that "you don't deserve to have a remarkable piece of his passionate build" :-) ... I can understand that. I can only say that I'm happy becouse I never had to deal with such customer :-)

- My two cent's about custom produced gear of any kind
I cannot stress this hard enough : Not every custom made product is better than cheap plastic counterpart in their function !!!! Due to use of better quality materials custom made products are usualy more robust...but not necessary better. I am not saying anything specific about any product out there, pedals or anything else. I'm saying the fact affecting any product that is built as "one off" or in small quantity. Problem arise because lack of testing, prototypes, experience ... Think of it this way : If a one off products didn't need improvements we would still drive cars from 50's, if you understand what I mean.
Why I say this ? My product is a custom one ! Well, yes. That's why I chose CNC production. Don't think I managed to make a good product from a "one off", but thanks to CNC production I've made tons of improvements over time. Most producers don't have such ability because they rely on expensive molds for production. Modifying part mean buying/ making new mold which cost a lot. Downside of my CNC production is that no matter how many parts I build...using same process of production is not going to cost any lower. Using molding process or similar cost reduce drastically with increased quantities.
Looking back 3 years since I started with my personal pedals, all the changes and time spent, all I can say is that despite all engineering,experience,dedication,testing, modifications ... most important factor in my pedals is PURE LUCK in finding a right solution for a given problem :-)
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/13/14 02:32 PM

Thanks for your Insight Milan.


I didn't say much at first until Slaw started questioning why I'm selling his pedals then basically called me a liar in regards to how much they cost me.

I'm happy now. I got some of my money back. Your right Milan I don't deserve his pedals. I work too damn hard for my money to get ripped off by a pedal that doesn't feel good or work in every game I play.



The fact that I ask Slaw for help regarding why his pedals didn't work in ELite Dangerous and ask for assistance with his pedals and he basically blew me off. I got 2 responses from him. One he says "go in the games options select yaw axis and move rudder"

Really? I think would have had to do that when initially setting up the controls.

Slaw's 2nd response was " Milans pedals work in Elite dangerous?"

Not sure if that was a pun like, well just use milans or if that was a sincere question.

After days of no help or feedback from Slaw I decided to sell the pedals. Only then did he respond back with "hey i'll buy pedal back from you"

Why would he do that? just make another pair?

Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 07:10 AM

I have no reason to defend Slaw or his pedals here. Most people would say I'm crazy to even try. I don't know the guy, and we are "competition" :-)

Dustin please don't get me wrong. I don't want to disrespect your hard earned money. Here in Croatia that is considered as serious amount of money. You are also aware that I take customer support very seriously, like it was the case when your uncle's pedals got some damage during transport. I was cooperative, responded quickly and provided instructions and parts in shortest possible time.
Based on that event with your uncle's pedals I can also confirm to everyone reading this that you are good customer, full of understanding and patience if things go wrong, you understood what you bought and have reasonable expectations. So when you say you have a damn good reason to sell Slaw pedals I belive you 100%. Details about your customer support from Slaw I cannot know, or comment.

About Elite Dangerous and HID drivers in general

As far as I know Elite Dangerous is still considered as "beta" title. Meaning it's probably full of bugs that need to be sorted out. There is also a thread where dev's ask for users to specify their controllers for compatibility and I know MFG Crosswinds are on that list.
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17280&page=51

As a producer I can tell you how to divide responsibility of a hardware manufacturer vs. game developer. Hardware manufacturer together with electronics manufacturer are responsible for mechanical and electronical aspects of a game controller up untill device enumerate itself in windows as a standard HID gaming device. Meaning : if a device is shown in windows/game controller and function properly ...but don't work in particular game than it's a game developer to blame. Simple as that !
But, it's not always that simple. My pedals worked fine fron Day 1 according to that principle, but were not recognized by some games. I worked hard to find out solution even though it was not my responsibility - but game developer's fault.
Problem is that some games use old engine to communicate with game devices. Such game engine expect a game device to have at least X and Y axis. My pedals consisted of rX, rY, rZ axis. Solution was to simply change axis binding within firmware to X,Y and rZ...voila...everything worked. This is only one simple example of a problem and solution...there were others, unfortunately.

Interaction between game device and a simulator is a complex chain. Each link affect the whole chain leading to bad (or good) user experience. Most of simmers understand this too well, but let me write it anyway :
- Mechanical operation of a device ( robustness, smoothnes, realisam, longetivity, ergonomics...)
- sensor/potentiometer/button... ( precision, longetivity, linearity ...)
- electronics operation (signal interpretation, well written firmware...)
- USB connection ( refresh rate, stability, compactibility)
- PC - windows game controller setup
- game/simulation ( how game controller is handled by a game )
Posted By: Brun

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 11:12 AM

Milan's post is spot on.

The rudder pedals don't work because Elite will not recognise any devices which don't have X and Y rotation axes. If Slaw's pedals use direct slider axes that's why they don't work. I've got a set of old gameport CH pedals which I converted to USB using one of Leo Bodnar's controllers. They didn't work for exactly this reason, I had to open them up and change the connections. Since then they've been flawless.

So despite being a victim of a problem with the game (one which isn't even in beta) you've gone off the rails blaming the hardware and manufacturer.


I think you owe someone an apology.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 03:06 PM

saitek pro flight combat pedasl work

your pedals work Milan

Slaw do not.


I'm no expert when it comes to sensors or HID drivers.

Elite dangerous supports a plethora of controllers and trackIR/Occulus

Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 03:08 PM

Milan,

doing business with you is a pleasure, your customer support is 2nd to none.

You did my uncle a solid when his pedals were received beat up.

you take care of your customers.


Slaw on the other hand Did nothing for me. I asked him for help. He responded with 2 messages that sounded like (buzz off)

I would expect some kind of support if a user buys a $200 Pair of Saitek pedals, Saitek will fix replace and provide driver and software support.


I would expect if I paid $598 for a pair of custom made pedals to get more then 2 PM on a forum that weren't even helpful and or at least an email from the maker.

Brun, if you can argue this then Don't bother responding. Your just a fan boy if you think I owe slaw an apology.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 03:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Brun
Milan's post is spot on.

The rudder pedals don't work because Elite will not recognise any devices which don't have X and Y rotation axes. If Slaw's pedals use direct slider axes that's why they don't work. I've got a set of old gameport CH pedals which I converted to USB using one of Leo Bodnar's controllers. They didn't work for exactly this reason, I had to open them up and change the connections. Since then they've been flawless.

So despite being a victim of a problem with the game (one which isn't even in beta) you've gone off the rails blaming the hardware and manufacturer.


I think you owe someone an apology.


I think you should do your home work. ELite is in final beta, about to go gold.

It supports a plethora of devices already, including trackIR and Occulus.

I've even written my own .XML like I've done for star citizen, which BTW star citizen uses.XML code and is in Aplha phase. Even with the proper axis binding similar or same to other pedal devices. Slaw pedals will not work regardless.



<YawAxis>
<Binding Device="flight control rudder" Key="Joy_RZAxis" />
<Inverted Value="0" />
<Deadzone Value="0.00000000" />
</YawAxis>

Brun who do I owe an apology to? Are you a slaw fan boy defending him? He didn't even try to help. this was before I decide to sell his pedals.


Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 05:20 PM

I'm saying I would expect some kind of customer support. Milan surely gives it.

I guess you would have to actually be in the situation to understand the feeling.

Any way this is all null and void. I'm longer a user of the that pedal.
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 07:55 PM

Slaw is not a business. He makes these pedals in his spare time

Expecting the same sort of customer support offered by a big company like Saitek is unrealistic.
Offering to buy them back seems reasonable to me.

My twopenneth, I own Slaws and am very pleased with them. They were exactly what I expected them to be.
Rugged well designed and pinpoint accurate.

But then again I knew from the outset what I was buying and from who I was buying them from.
A bespoke made to order set of pedals.

I hope he carries on making them too.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 08:14 PM



I said " some kind of support" I expect some kind of support.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 08:18 PM

No he didn't not after he argued how much they cost me in the US.

Didn't hear a peep from him since.
Posted By: milan_croatia

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 09:32 PM

Ok... I'll write a bit more :-)

I too offer a full refund in case customer don't like pedals, for whatever reason. Luckily I never had to refund...all customers are happy with pedals :-)....but, in a case of refund, I can't offer a refund + double shipping, Only refund for pedals. That is reasonable as shipping service don't give a damn if it's refund or not...postage has to be payed either ways. So, usual business is NOT to refund shipping price...that is part of the customer's risk while buying !

About customer support. I have to agree with Dustin about this one. Why not to expect a customer support ?? WTF ?

Sure, it is not reasonable to expect from me or Slaw to write full blown software package like Thrustmaster's T.a.r.g.et. Development of such software cannot be justified by a small number of products that we produce.

BUT...it is reasonable to expect a BETTER customer communication and support than big companies will ever be able to offer !. I can't offer live telephone support, of course...but I can answer an e-mail in 24 hours, make skype or teamviewer arrangement and solve a problem if a customer have one, why not ?

Why I say better support than big companies. I can say from my perspective...customer contact me as a fellow simmer, I understand his problem as a simmer, and know the product inside out as a producer. I doubt you'll reach such person on the other side when you contact big companies customer support. I dare to say that my customers are covered with best possible support.

About Dustin's particular problem. It was possible to answer something like :
- Don't know, will look into that problem
- Problem is well known, and I'm working on it
- Problem is known, but won't be fixed because of **** reason.

In case it is axis binding of X,Y and rZ axis. Problem is well documented and published by me so others don't have to hassle to find a solution like I did. Instead of making it a competitive advantage for my pedals I've actually published solution for a Slaw to read it - in best interest of a Flight Sim community.
Now...if such problem is not yet solved....than I have to agree with Dustin here....because I MADE A SOLUTION AND POSTED IT ONLINE ON 16/01/2014 !!!! Here :
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3875540/5

And write to Slaw specificaly here :
http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=350&t=40614&start=20

I will quote myself (posted on ROF forum) :
Quote:
Compatibility is not a big problem for slaw's. I remember when speaking with Red Baron, maker of his electronics that he has a bootloader- possibility to update firmware thru USB.

I found a where the problem is and made a solution. Red Baron only need to change axis bindings in his firmware as X and Y axis must exist in order to be compatible with these games.
So instead of using Rx and Ry I've opted to use X and Y for brakes...rZ for rudder axis is unchanged.


I belive our good samaritan "Sokol1" shared my solution across...hmm... universe :-)
Solution require firmware writer to change two lines of code within HID descriptor file...two minutes of work and all fixed


P.S. To add argument of my customer support I also give you my opinion how I cover it. Formula is simple : I can't be in contact with each customer on daily basis...but if a product is done well, trouble free, fault free, well written manual...support requests will be very few. Those few support requests I CAN cover without problems. My formula work just fine so far :-)
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By: milan_croatia
Ok... I'll write a bit more :-)

I too offer a full refund in case customer don't like pedals, for whatever reason. Luckily I never had to refund...all customers are happy with pedals :-)....but, in a case of refund, I can't offer a refund + double shipping, Only refund for pedals. That is reasonable as shipping service don't give a damn if it's refund or not...postage has to be payed either ways. So, usual business is NOT to refund shipping price...that is part of the customer's risk while buying !

About customer support. I have to agree with Dustin about this one. Why not to expect a customer support ?? WTF ?

Sure, it is not reasonable to expect from me or Slaw to write full blown software package like Thrustmaster's T.a.r.g.et. Development of such software cannot be justified by a small number of products that we produce.

BUT...it is reasonable to expect a BETTER customer communication and support than big companies will ever be able to offer !. I can't offer live telephone support, of course...but I can answer an e-mail in 24 hours, make skype or teamviewer arrangement and solve a problem if a customer have one, why not ?

Why I say better support than big companies. I can say from my perspective...customer contact me as a fellow simmer, I understand his problem as a simmer, and know the product inside out as a producer. I doubt you'll reach such person on the other side when you contact big companies customer support. I dare to say that my customers are covered with best possible support.

About Dustin's particular problem. It was possible to answer something like :
- Don't know, will look into that problem
- Problem is well known, and I'm working on it
- Problem is known, but won't be fixed because of **** reason.

In case it is axis binding of X,Y and rZ axis. Problem is well documented and published by me so others don't have to hassle to find a solution like I did. Instead of making it a competitive advantage for my pedals I've actually published solution for a Slaw to read it - in best interest of a Flight Sim community.
Now...if such problem is not yet solved....than I have to agree with Dustin here....because I MADE A SOLUTION AND POSTED IT ONLINE ON 16/01/2014 !!!! Here :
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3875540/5

And write to Slaw specificaly here :
http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=350&t=40614&start=20

I will quote myself (posted on ROF forum) :
Quote:
Compatibility is not a big problem for slaw's. I remember when speaking with Red Baron, maker of his electronics that he has a bootloader- possibility to update firmware thru USB.

I found a where the problem is and made a solution. Red Baron only need to change axis bindings in his firmware as X and Y axis must exist in order to be compatible with these games.
So instead of using Rx and Ry I've opted to use X and Y for brakes...rZ for rudder axis is unchanged.


I belive our good samaritan "Sokol1" shared my solution across...hmm... universe :-)
Solution require firmware writer to change two lines of code within HID descriptor file...two minutes of work and all fixed


P.S. To add argument of my customer support I also give you my opinion how I cover it. Formula is simple : I can't be in contact with each customer on daily basis...but if a product is done well, trouble free, fault free, well written manual...support requests will be very few. Those few support requests I CAN cover without problems. My formula work just fine so far :-)


Bravo!!! Well spoken and spot on!
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/14/14 11:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Brigstock
Slaw is not a business. He makes these pedals in his spare time

Expecting the same sort of customer support offered by a big company like Saitek is unrealistic.
Offering to buy them back seems reasonable to me.

My twopenneth, I own Slaws and am very pleased with them. They were exactly what I expected them to be.
Rugged well designed and pinpoint accurate.

But then again I knew from the outset what I was buying and from who I was buying them from.
A bespoke made to order set of pedals.

I hope he carries on making them too.


making and selling a product is a business. whether or not it's a full time job or a hobby, it's still a business and still requires a level of support. Especially when charging that much money.


For example: Milan
Professional, offers support. Communicates with his customers. Knows how to sell his product overseas. Takes care of his customers.


I asked Slaw for some help. I ask a couple questions regarding the his pedal. I got back nothing other then a snide remark "doesn't milan's pedals work in elite?"
and
"go into game options select yaw axis, move pedal"

Really? that's it. He could speak well enough English to me to sell me his pedals but not help his customer just a little bit with them. Maybe he didn't like the fact That my review favored Milan's design and now when I have a problem with his product he doesn't want to help me?

The only reason I'm making all this public is so that someone with half a brain who does their home work will be able to see what I went through and have more information regarding their next potential purchase.


I sure as hell wish had something to read like this before making my purchase.


I say to all you. Let's say you went out and bought a some new fancy Television that cost 15k. You run into a few small problems and you ask the seller or company who made that expensive TV for some help or guidance but they don't respond back. You ask them again for a little bit assistance, they respond back with a snide comment and a doubtful question.

Tell me how you would take that?


Posted By: Slaw

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/15/14 04:47 AM

Hi, All.
H1TMAN_ACTUA1 You wrote to me about the problem 07.09.2014 at 22 o'clock 32 minutes. I read the message and replied 8.09 2014 15 hours 32 minutes. Last post by you was 08/09/2014 at 19 pm 33 minutes.
09/08/2014 evening I asked for help from the manufacturer of electronics. 09/09/2014 I received from the manufacturer of electronics answer and wanted to write to you. But when went to the forum to write to you, I saw the subject of the sale of pedals you started 09.09.2014 in 17 hours 31 minutes. Ie I had less than 2 days to solve the problem with the electronics manufacturer (we live in different countries, and can only speak in the evening after work), but unfortunately it was not enough - you have sold the pedal.
This was my last post here.

Regards.
Slaw
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 09/15/14 02:53 PM

had nothing to so with response time had to do with what you said in your response.
Posted By: DCXX

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 10/08/14 03:29 PM

Hitman ive also ordered milans pedals & slaws pedals. I shall use 1 my friend will use the other
I think both these guys deserve credit for what they've done.
Ive had emails from both, whatever ones I use will be better than the Saitek #%&*$# or ch im sure
Posted By: yCodryn

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 12/08/14 04:48 PM

PROBLEM FIXED ! for Elite Dangerous. I talked with Slaw and explained the problem. After that I received a new firmware for pedals that change the brake axe from RX and RY to X and Y and now is working perfectly, the pedals are recognised by this game though this is still the fault of games developers because this is the only game that these pedals are not working. So if you have these pedals contact Slaw and he will help you.
Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/05/15 04:06 AM

I kind of agree. Slaw's pedals don't have a cam and dont feel right. They never will until he figures a a way to implement a CAM into his design.
Posted By: LocNar

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/05/15 05:56 AM

Originally Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1
I kind of agree. Slaw's pedals don't have a cam and dont feel right. They never will until he figures a a way to implement a CAM into his design.


His newer ones have been cam based for long enough that my buddy already got his set. Nicely done, with an option to add an adjustable oil damper as well...

Posted By: Maico

Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals - 08/06/15 08:17 AM

Hitman,
Above you stated "I think if Slaw was to allow for pedal angel adjustment(horizontal), Go to a Cam tension/centering design for the yaw axis and use heavier springs He would have thee best hand made privately produced Rudder pedal on the market."
I have just received my Slaw Device 109 pedals. They are adjustable horizontally. Look behind the pedals and you will see four screws allow for four different adjustment of pedal angle. They also rely on a Cam System witch is tunable and the cam is easily replaced. The cam is great. As far as spring tension is concerned I found mine to be right on the sweet spot but Im a light weight at 72 kg. Any more tension would lead to fatigue imo.
I found the rest of your review to be quite interesting.
I lean more(pardon the pun) towards the Slaws construction. You cant argue with steel. And yes, my old Saiteks are now horrible by comparison.
© 2024 SimHQ Forums