X65F Saitek anyone with problems?

Title says it all Im concerned with the reliability of this hotas anyone owning it and having issues/experiences good or bad please feel free to relate .I dont care about the stiff throttle I plan to hard mount mine I mainly concerned with any G940 logitech type stuff(sounds like that thing is a nightmare)I have 28 days to return it so any feedback will be appreciated and may save me a LOT of headaches

Thanx in advance

Skip,

You have another thread, in this same forum, currently right below this thread. You started off that thread by asking the same question you did in this thread.

To make things even weirder, you just posted in the other thread that you just bought an X-65F. What gives? There's no need for both of these threads.

Its not really the same question Im asking any OWNERs if they are having difficulties the other thread was for anyone owners or not what they think, two completely different questions Joe

I responded to your post before your edited it, so just ignore the mounting comments I guess...

I've only had it since July, but I haven't had any problems with it personally in terms of quality. No broken or loose components and no jitter from any of the axis'(rotaries, stick, split throttle), etc. Of course, the big test is a year or two later as Saitek is typically not know for their quality, but maybe no moving parts on at least the stick will address that. If you don't have a way to secure it whether it be industrial strength velcro or bolted down, I wouldn't recommend it though.

I say that because you might find the throttle too stiff initially where it doesn't stay in place if you don't have it secured, but after a few weeks of use, it is no longer an issue as I tested it unsecured, but I still prefer bolted down. And then of course, there is the force sensing stick where you are applying force to the stick itself instead of moving a handle, so if you like to apply a stronger level of force before it responds, which is my personal preference, you'll want the stick to be secured.

A lot of it also depends on what you fly as well. If you only fly WW1 and WW2 aircraft, a force sensing stick won't quite have the right feel, but is doable and this would be applicable to chopper sims as well. With that said, I still use the CH Products gear for those types of sims. Now if you primarily fly jet sims and/or space combat games, I think it is a very good solution and feels natural in relation to flying the aircraft and in twitch space combat games, I found it improved my accuracy just because of the smooth control of force sensing.

If you have no experience with a force sensing stick, I would definitely recommend getting it from a place where you could return it if you don't like it, because some people get catch right on with using a force sensing stick, while others will absolutely hate it and never catch on. For me at least, I caught on pretty fast where it was completely natural. Results will definitely vary.

what I fear is the mess G940 owners are having right now and if thats the case with the saitek(New technology) itll go back in a flash so all pertinent info will be Greatly appreciated OWNERS ONLY PLEASE

My words might fall on deaf ears, as I'm not an X65 owner, but take this for what it is: The only thread in the "saitek" section of the controller forum is about issues with the programing software. The overall problem is the manus don't profit off software upgrades/support. Logitech is a prime example: Shoe honing the G940 into software intended for steering wheels and gaming mice, as the margins on a $300 video game controller are too low to justify the dedicated software it needs. The issues with Saitek always seem to come back to long term reliability (which no one will be able to give you a straight answer for, as the X65 fleet is still too young) and poor software. You can test the latter on your own, and arrive are your own conclusions.

To put a bow on it: Your well aware of the G940 issues, but your not aware of any real X65 issues, save for the stick itself being force sensing (a polarizing design choice), and stiff throttles, which you already have an in place solution for. So no, this isn't a G940.

One final edit: If you truly want an "OWNERS ONLY PLEASE" thread, I here Saitek has just the thing....

I have had no problems with my X65 as far as quality of build has gone. All the buttons, switches, axis and rotary's work, nothings broken, or fallen off. I did purchase direct from Madcatz, the 3 year warranty was extended to 5 years, so I feel pretty safe in the purchase. I have a simple requirement of any purchase, that it work, and so far the Saitek works. I dumped my Cougar, because it didn't work.. and became a job instead of a hobby to use it. I also have a complete CH setup, that I've had zero problems with, and one can't fault the support one bit.

Only reportable problem I've had with X65, is some times the mouse pointer had a mind of its own. Upon release, it would continue to wander on its own little way across the screen. Moving the mouse controller back to center, instead of just releasing it would stop it. The latest Saitek software, or a Windows update seems to have corrected this on both an XP and Win7 x64 machine. Don't really know who to give credit too, but its fixed.

Saitek's support site could be better, but worth checking out if your going to purchase the stick. The software? Like anything it takes learning, and the best way for that is to use it. Can more be done with the Cougar/Warthog and CH software? From what I've read I think so, but post here and other places confirms that the trustmaster software is a work in progress too. An argument could be made on how many combination key codes can one use? let alone remember. Any game controller in the $400 plus range, Logitech, Saitek, or Thrustmaster, should do what its designed to do, plain and simple.

Like anything, every high priced controller is going to have a want/correct list, from the hardware to the software. For me the X65-F is a quality set. Do I like my CH set.. yes. The Warthog, me, I'll wait, if the build is as good as everyone is hoping and reported, with no reliability problems (rule #1, its got to work, rule #2 not be more trouble then its worth) I'll have one on my desk too.

Saitek software is in a distinct class below the capabilities of Thrustmaster software (be it Foxy or T.A.R.G.E.T.) and/or CH Control Manager. While it's true that T.A.R.G.E.T. is an still-improving product, it already outshines SST by a large margin.

Not everyone wants or needs this capability, so it may not matter to some. However, compared to some other controllers available for a similar price, the X-65F software capabilities are quite limited.

The most thing that Im disappointed about this product is something "rudeness" of the product since its by no means low price joystick.

As is mentioned on SimHQ review, on sensitive force settings, XY axis go out of the center and the biggest problem about this one is that the Saitek didnt produce a calibration feature for it.
Dont you think, precision of XY axis is the most basic factor to determine the quality of the joystick?

Some claims that this can be solved by setting deadzone but I do not recommend doing so.
With this stick, the more sensitive force settings you set, the more (especially )X axis goes to the left of the center.
When it is going -3.0 from the center, you set deadzone for 3.1, but this means, you need to make a +6.1 pressure for the initial of a right roll while only -0.1 pressure is needed for a left roll.
You can clearly feel this gap and obviously this is uncomfortable.

Back to the XY alignment problem, this was really problematic when operating hover mode in Blackshark and even in Falcon.
Therefore you will be forced to use above certain force settings.

Software has some bug that is for critical for some user and the problem is that the bug that has been pointed out 7 months ago, is not addressed yet.
Unlike other company, flight stick is not the only product Saitek cares as they are expanding their market place.
However this can't be a reason. Why does customer need to care the circumstance of company since they demanded us a good price for this product?

I received mine on 20 August 2010 and all I can say is wow, In Il2, Black shark, DCS a10c, it is just fantastic. I can not speak about the controller software as I have all the keys setup in game menus only. SO far I see no issues with it. I will report back at about the year mark and see how it goes.



Bullet

I would avoid the X-65F like a plague until Saitek starts responding to their customer's issues.

Complaints have been on the Saitek official forum now for over six months regarding the calibration issue (mine is offset to the left, and my mini-stick mouse is also not centered), and Saitek's responses clearly demonstrate they could care less about their customers post-purchase.

The only answer you're like to get from "UKSupport" is "We're looking into it...I'll get back when I have some news."

That's the same story he's given for the past six months regarding the calibration flaw (how does a $300 joystick NOT have a self-calibration button????). It is also the response given as to whether or not mounting plates for the second unit (throttle or stick can be mounted, not both) are available for purchase.

In short, I wish I'd held out for the Warthog HOTAS.

Ive already taken it back (only had it a week)after buying the Saitek/mad cat cyborg rat 7mouse (piece of junk)I figured it would be the same with the X65 so back it went,Saitek has always been really slow to help their customers post purchase also I didnt have a lot of faith in the long term reliabilty of that technology after some thought

My X-65 does have a very small offset on the x axis in the windows control panel. In the Saitek profile editor it is dead center. I have yet to see this have any effect on operation in a game. i.e. no drift to the left as some are reporting. The throttle mouse shows a larger offset in the windows control panel (no option to test this in the profile editor). Again this hasn't been a problem, I've adjusted the mini stick sensitivity with the Siatek profile editor to the point where the mini stick is much more useful and controlable.

If your stick will not hold its center (ie drifting in games), I would be returning it on a warranty claim. How good the warranty service is, I hope I won't have to find out.

I was one of the first ones to bring up on the Saitek forum about wanting to purchase an extra plate, which seems to have fallen on deaf ears. The simple work around if you don't want to hard attached the throttle is some Velcro, and little super glue and problem solved

I've had pretty good luck with Saitek's basic sticks and other products, that's what pushed me in the direction of the X65. Customer support by Saitek no doubt could stand to be improved. And again, though its been beaten to death, CH and Thrustmaster software is capable of much more then Saitek's. But does everyone need or want to learn programing to get your HOTAS buttons to do what you need to. Like all software the Saitek profile editor is a work in progress.. I guess the million dollar (or #300) question is when will that progress be made.

Is the X65 perfect, far from it... is it a piece of junk, far from that too. Just another choice to consider before putting a HOTAS on your desktop.

Bottom line: The X-65F has its benefits, BUT

If you're comfortable having spent $300 or more dollars on a joystick that can't center itself then all the power to you. However the "official" response is to unplug the joystick, delete some registry entries, and reconnect the joystick repeatedly until you get a 'center' that works.

This is unacceptable for a supposed top-end product. Saitek CLEARLY doesn't care about their customers, or it wouldn't take six months+ to resolve such a ridiculous issue.

We've complained: they've done nothing.
We complained more: they still do nothing.
Now I'm taking this fight to you, the reader, so that you realize before you spend your hard-earned cash on something like this, that there are better options on the market from companies that aren't complete sh** like Saitek.

Don't support their company until they support their customers.

This is exactly what I was looking for in my original post and I had a feeling it was a bad decision to buy Saitek and I switched to the Warthog lets hope I dont regret it, the reviews so far on the WH are mixed with some issues already.
My biggest problem with SAITEK is the shoddy way they treat their customers after the sale and on high end (expensive equipment )this IS NOT ACCEPTABLE thanks to the people in this forum we have a powerful weapon to not buy shoddy products with fancy packaging and even fancier prices The Rat7 cyborg mouse come to mind..................... Caveat emtor

People following this topic may be interested in a recent review at this link

AVSIM X-65F Review

(don't know if I did the link right so here it is.. long hand http://www.avsim.com/pages/1010/Saitek/X65.html)

Lots of good pictures of the X65, and another review to help anyone make a choice.

If you move to the middle of the review, they have a jpg of the Saitek settings page, which clearly shows the stick center as being off. One problem that has been brought up here.





The above images are of my Win7 x64 system. The stick in Saiteks Profile editor is centered.
The stick in the control panel is just off to the left, about the thickness of the x axis line.
The mouse is off more, to the lower right. Again I have had no problems with either the stick or mouse in any program. While the mouse is certainly off center more, I seem to remember my CH throttle mouse having the center. For me? Its a problem, that isn't a problem.

Saitek tech support's recommend fix is as discribed in an earlier post by JCav. They also recommend trying your controller on another computer and if you can not get the stick to center that it should be returned for warranty. If JCav has returned his stick and had it replaced, and has the exact same problem, then I can understand his displeasure with Saitek.

I've read in other forums, of X65F owners with the center problem, claiming a MS update fixed the problem.. like my run away mouse mentioned earlier, I can't confirm that. Never had the stick center problem, and my mouse is fixed. Would be interested if other X65 owners have had the center problem and if it was fixed by Saiteks tech support fix?

Hi CBR9, did you confirm your XY stays in the center even on the lower force settings? (F4)
I always keep my OS updated however the problem still remains.

btw it broght me another problem.
Even if it is physically keep connected to USB, I sometimes hear the USB disconnecting/connecting sound from Windows OS. this happens about 4 times a day.
When that happens, LED light goes OFF with the disconnecting sound then goes ON with the connecting sound.
I have tried several USB port but still no luck.

My env is Win7 Home 32bit, Asus P7P55D-E lx

On all four force settings the center remains the same as in the jpgs I posted. The mouse if off center more then the stick, but again, my CH throttle mouse had the exact same offset.

I live dangerous and have my windows updates on auto. So I can't say if something MS did or updated helped with the center problem, beacuse I never really had it. My X65 throttle mouse did repair itself.

My X65 is connected to a powered hub along with CH rudder pedals, Thrustmaster MFD's and Tracir. All play well together. I have three computers running through one keyboard and monitor using Input Director to choose the active screen/computer. When playing a sim I forgo Input Director, which doesn't play well with most games. From time to time, I also hear the "chime" of some usb device connecting, but my X65, or MFD's have never blinked off. I route the monitor connection through a Roswell HDMI switch, and I think this is were my USB chime is coming from, but can't say that for sure (when switching display source I get the "ding"). But haven't notice any usb device going offline...

Have you been able to test your stick on another computer? Do you have a powered USB hub that you would be able to try? When your lights go off line does the controller stop working? I've read on other forums that people have the occasional "ding" and say its a power distribution issue with windows... You might be interested in this link

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=61851&page=2

I don't see why they can't add a button to bloody centre the thing. The one I have tends to 'hang to the right', especially after use. One of the reasons I programmed a virtual stick into my game, so you can offset an input how you like.

I don't think it's a HUB power issue as it does the same, HUB or not. Just seems to be a bit of a dumb oversight in the software, no reason why it can't be sorted in an update. Resting your hand on the stick causes a pull to the right. Would be nice to get some clarification on how the self-centring works.

As it's only a slight offset, any flight sim of worth can trim it out so it shouldn't be a big deal in use. But still. I wonder if they are sensitive to local variations in magnetic fields.

Saitek wouldn't return my emails.

Thanks for the link CBR9, its really interesting thread for me.
People in there are having exactly same issue as mine.
As you mentioned, I need to test it on another M/B and PSU.

When the phenomenon occurred while flying, it ignores my input until it regains LED power, if I was making a hard left pressure when the power is back, it reset a new center position, I mean, I need to make a hard right pressure to maintain straight flight after that.

Hi Flexman.
Do you have a same disconnect/connect issue that Im suffering from?
Its really nice to hear that your new sim in development are going to have a software calibration.
And also I hope you to get a response from "Saitek" or "Madcatz"

http://kotaku.com/322571/saitek-devoured-by-mad-catz

Ndal,

Hi, no I've never had that 'disconnect' and 'reconnect' problem with it. Then I used to run everything through a powered USB hub (DLink). Although the PSU for that HUB died and what I thought was a powered USB HUB actually wasn't (which would explain some Tripplehead problems I had back in Feb). Now I have the Saitek stick plugged into one of the MBs USB ports.

I've come across that USB hub overload setting in Windows before. Looking for it I found something interesting.

In windows 7 if you open up the properties for the USB HUB I noticed you get information about available power and required power.



I'm not sure how accurate these numbers are, they seem a bit round for live readings and possibly just OEM values entered into the driver?? Either way the X65 seems to need a lot of juice.

Got to playing around with the old Saitek software for my Cyborg 3d Gold stick. In the control panel for this they do have the ability to calibrate the stick. As you all know the control panel for the X65F doesn't. I can only assume Saitek figures its not needed for the X65. Some games.. Falcon 4/AF and Free Falcon 5.5 have the option to center sticks in setup. Something to try to see if you can get your X65 to center, and not have any drift in the game. Free Falcon supports the duel throttle, and it works (at least in the config screen).

IL-2 also support setup for the joystick in their hardware screen. A small utility program IL2-joyctrl is out there (mission4today.com) too.



If you have these you might try the center options in their setups, and see if you still have the "pull" in either direction. I use deadzones on all three stick axis to limit unwanted input. The force sensing when set on a softer setting can pick up a lot of unwanted input.

If you've tried Saiteks trouble shooting guide to get the stick to come in to a center, and its not, I would return the stick under warranty.

I know when mine has had that issue it was becase the s-video cable pulled out of the stick, yes was my error. I had to exit the game then unplug and replug it in to get the center back. I now ahve had it for almost 3 months of heavy use and I still love it. I am also looking at the WH but with the throttle failures I will wait for 5 months to a year and hopefully the price will drop.


Bullet

Thanks for the help Flexman, CBR and Bullestop.
Mine has also 500mA capability, and total mA was within the capability (tested unplugging other devices in the same HUB) but I still hear disconnected/connect sound several times.
Messed around with S-video cable but still no luck.

I come to think its more a mainboard problem as my P55 board inherently have some eratta around USB that may be causing the issue.
I'll go back to previous core2 mainboard and see what happens.

I have good news btw.
According to the official support, they are going to release a new driver for X65F which will address the alignment issue.

I got hold of a X65F from Amazon recently. It arrived with one of the hats snapped off the stick, so I duly returned it to Amazon and had another sent out. I have sent this back and got a refund from Amazon. Why?
Well, where do I start...
Fundamentally, I found that there was an awful lot of bleed for the X and Y axes. Even a simple banking manoeuvre can't be done without the nose of the aircraft rising or falling all over the place.
The throttle was very stiff. I read in one or two places that Saitek say this is because of the grease its parts are oiled with, and that you should "vigorously" move the throttle to and fro for 60 seconds. Well, apart from not wanting to wreck the kit and cause damage I'd struggle to get covered by the warranty, this is not a long-term solution. In fact, on a long uneventful flight, it's not even a short-term fix as the grease quickly cools down again.
There are other less important flaws in my view: The microstick is too fiddly, and some of the hats on the throttle are in places where they often get knocked, the stick is enormous - way too large for my hands. I was having to reach up a long way to get to the picle button, which made manoeuvring to avoid fire on ingress difficult. And I don't like the boxes attached to the throttle for force settings.
The main point though, is the bleed for one axis to another, which made the stick unusable for me. Lucky I got it from Amazon as they refunded me without a problem. I got a second-hand Cougar HOTAS instead which i'm loving. It's all the things that the X65F wasn't: ergonomic, easy to use, and very accurate.

The x/y axis bleeding is not a product of the product itself, but a product of people not knowing how or not having the patience to make proper adjustments to the force settings in conjunction with the deadzone, response curve and force strength settings (the latter being the most important). Then there is just of course the issue of some people will never be able to adjust to a force sensing stick. The stick can be adjusted where you don't have negative impact x/y axis bleeding (and I mean literal up, down, left and right without ever noticeably crossing the calibration lines) and still have a smooth response from the center to all of the outer limits, but for anyone that just wants to use a force sensing stick out of the box without making those adjustments, then forget about it.

The throttle stiffness becomes a non-issue after a couple of weeks of use and it stays that way. The mouse stick is fine if sensitivity adjuments are made and I can control it where it goes completely up or down or left and right without any bleeding as well and diagonally along with being able to draw circles. Not perfect circles, but not any worse than what I can do on my CH Pro Throttle's mouse stick.

The only things I did differently on the throttle is I removed the front two hats and just used the bases they screw in to to manipulate the hats. It works great that way and makes the throttle more ergonomic and no accidental bumping of the hats with any of the fingers. As far as the two hats next to the mouse stick, since they are also 8 way hats, I programmed them to use the corners of the hat instead of the up, down, left and right. This had a more logical feel to it when manipulating the hats based on the design of the throttle.

I did ditch the cheesy mounting brackets that Saitek provided to mount the force settings and additional buttons box as I built a separate box that it fits into in front of the throttle and also hides all of the HOTAS cables in it. It looks a lot better that way and doesn't move. I also like how these buttons are right in front of the throttle instead of on the throttle base itself where I would actually have to take my hand off the throttle.

One thing that I will say that is absolutely paramount to this HOTAS setup working optimally as well is to have it mounted. It makes a world of difference because I did extensive testing both ways and the response results for both the stick and throttle are entirely different. Just another man's experience.

Achilles I have the Cougar and the throttle feels terrible.

I took the detents off but even with the loosest settings,it's sticky,not precise and useless.

And no I'm not spending over a grand to fix the crap thing.

Seems the CH hotas still stands tall.

I've read forum after forum and they come up trumps.

I've also read if you put a force mod into the Cougar the base deforms after a while.

Although it is not something you should expect to have to do, transforming the Cougar throttle from sticky to a very nice feeling is a matter of an hour of your time as well as some Scotch tape and aluminum foil, not "over a grand".
http://cougar.flyfoxy.com/mods.php#smooth

I have a X65F and I'm having a issue that I hope you guys may have a answer or fix for? I've plugged in my stick and loaded the software and drivers. the problem is that I cant get it to calibrate but what is strange is the calibration bars have a mind of there own. seriously I dont even touch the stick all I need to do is move my hand over or close to the stick and I can witness the X/Y and rudder bars move on their own. (very strange like I have a magnetic field around me). I've tried all the usb slots I have on computer and that didn't help. Any suggestions?


thanks

Hollywoody


HP i7 920 gtx260
W7 64bit

update...I tried a powered usb hub and I still have this same problems. anyone know why would the movement of someones hand close to but not touching the joystick make the joystick show input like if I were holding it?

It shouldn't unless the settings are so low that even air pressure would effect it, But I doubt that is the case. Show a screen of the controller force settings just for giggles.




Bullet

When this accurs I creep my hand up slowly and this still creates this anomally. Maybe it's a grounding issue? btw my force settings are at defaults. I would show you but I can't figure out how to input imgs.

I just happened to know that it was TV(CRT) that was causing X65F disconnecting/connecting problem.
it looks like the stick is affected by electromagnetic wave the TV generates when is turned on or off.

I notice my body proximity to the X-65F causes the rudder axis to change deflection slightly at 0.9 force setting (I like .47 X and .78 Y on the other axiis at F4 setting). The stick axis also jumps a little when I turn off a fluorescent desk lamp. That sounds like sensitivity of the rudder axis to infrared energy and an issue with RF/EMI shielding, respectively. If the very long USB cables had ferrite cylinders at various points along their length, it might help the stick's X/Y jumping with the lamp turning off. I'm not sure how the rudder deflecting from body proximity could be helped. It sounds like major physical design problems.

Another weird thing is that POV1, pinkie paddle, and button B (possibly others on the stick) cause the rudder to deflect, too. I've determined that's definitely not the result of added twist pressure, especially since button B's effect causes the exact same right-directional deflection of the twist axis: the opposite from pressure applied. The paddle is also symmetric to the twist, so it's not force causing this. That could possibly again be an RF/EMI shielding issue within the wiring or along the cable, but could also be sloppy internal circuits with actual leaking voltage between the paths. It could be a code bug, but it does it to varying degrees on all the drivers.

This is a shame, because I'm tweaking a really bad Falcon AF profile I found on the Saitek site (now it's useable) and am starting to get used to this hyper-responsive, no-delay stick. Oh, I do not like the reduced throw of the throttle, the tiny distance past the afterburner detent, or the excessive resistance to the throttle's motion. If the rudder and RF/EMI issues were not present, I would still be highly compelled to look past the throttle's issues, though. I don't like the rotaries' wiggle or the inability to program the mode switch to send a button command at the same time I switch a mode (like master modes, as I could do on the X52), but that too I could overlook.

I just tried putting my hand around the cable connecting the throttle to the stick. Near the stick end, with my hand nearing and wrapping the cable, the rudder deflects as I near. Definitely some shielding problems with that PS/2 cable. Too bad it's hardwired into the throttle end, because there must be some after-market heavily shielded cables out there, including ones with ferrites along the length. On a related note, I wonder if the use of balanced, double-ended cables with differential opamps (like in pro audio) mighthave helped transmission of signals between the stick and throttle.

By the way, anyone know if the unit is 14-bit resolution?

I currently have the cable between the throttle and stick (the short one we're talking about), around behind my body and between my back and the chair. I calibrated the stick with this arrangement of the cable and my hand actually on the stick and am now getting somewhat better centering and less deflection when hitting button B and the pinkie paddle.

Well. I really wish the consensus on the x65 was better. I know the CH products are way more reliable, but they've got no swag as far as I'm concerned. If there was better support I'd be more willing to throw down $350. But since it's Saitek I know better. So, I want a sexy hotas that is around $350, but there aren't any good solutions out there in that mid-price range. What's up with that?

I ordered some ferrite choke cores to try and get rid of the issues on the twist axis. We'll see how that goes. Aluminum foil has made no difference. Move my hand near the cable or the stick and the rudder deflects. Ditto with just moving the cable around. And the calibration is flakey. Doesn't seem to actually do anything much of the time. Unplugging/replugging the stick works better. Without the drivers installed, I wonder if the windows calibration would work. Hopefully it's RFI/EMI and not infrared that's causing it, as short of wrapping it in neoprene I don't know how you'd mitigate the latter.

The chokes definitely help. So I ordered another 20. I had difficulty getting the 5mm clamp-on TDK ones to fit. Broke one of the 10 and put probably too many on the other cables when I became frustrated getting them on the stick cable end. These are probably 6mm diameter cables. One large ferrite ring, with the stick-end connector of the cable wrapped around it a bunch of times then taped/covered with non-residue electrical or studio tape would do the job probably better and for 1/10th the price than spending $30 on the little ones. And no risk to the cables. It definitely has the desired effect, though. I'm just getting a little bit of interference remaining when moving the cable or getting my hand near the connector. The twist axis doesn't even deviate outside the deadzone anymore moving the whole cable around at my lowest force setting, which is way below the F4 default. Granted, I have a large deadzone set right now, but it used to deflect over 50% of the full axis just moving it. I'm a little worried these clamp-on ones, being just barely large enough to fit with pliers to squeeze them shut, will damage the PVC insulation on these USB and PS/2 cables. And I also doubt you need them anywhere except right were the cable plugs into the stick. But I will just line the hell out of that cable with them when the rest get here. For $100, obviously a pair of rudder pedals will fix this issue just the same. Saitek definitely screwed up, though. No reason not to have some medium sized choke cores, or at least one on the stick end.

I would've bought this buggy piece of kit if I hadn't been an avid SimHQ lurker. It's a big disappointment because x65 is placed to fill the medium to high priced HOTAS niche, it looks cool, and I would've bit. But I'd much rather find out about problems BEFORE I make the jump rather than afterwards. Thanks all for the discussions and the heads-up!

I don't know about buggy. The STT software and these pr0 format files seem less sophisticated to me than the original dat system for the X52. Saitek had all sorts of promises about how sophisticated the programming would become. Look at my original EECH dat profiles. Holy crap, dude. I'm proud about how they turned out. It's seriously aggravating as hell trying to get anything near that complexity on this new STT. Even the time quantization doesn't work the same for advanced commands. It seems like theoretically it's the exact same features on the STT without a single added one, yet it's more clunky and harder to figure out to get it to do what I want. Like, how do I have a button do one thing with just a quick press and do something else when I hold it for a half second? I've done a few that appear to be doing what I want like that, but it's not easy to achieve and involves tricking the STT to quantize a bunch of the same commands to different values and then pasting them around to where I need, deleting the keys with the wrong time. I just swap them around and keep trying until it does it. Weird. It almost seems like it's an attempt by another group of people to duplicate the original programming but by a bunch of coders that didn't quite know what they were doing. Did MadCatz not get the original dat STT code when they bought Saitek?

The stick and throttle itself are really not buggy hardware, as far as I can tell. USB, midi, and ps/2 cables need ferrite choke cores on them, especially when it comes to controllers at the 10 and 14bit resolutions. I don't know what the x-65f is, but it's clearly some very fine, low-intensity, highly intricate electrical signals going through. There almost needs to be balanced XLR connections going through these, with DSPs translating the signal back to what the computer can use. I wonder if this is why Logitech programmed in the "hysteresis" into the G940, as a sort of signal redundancy to prevent interference from altering the signal parameters. It would have added few bucks to the cables, tops. It's just those little cylinders you see on computer cables, is all. Until I moved from DJing on vinyl and CDs back in Vegas to buying my first computer DJ controller (10bit, then a 14bit one), I had no idea what those things were. They can be the difference between hell and perfect operation. In the case of the X-65f, one single large rubberized ferrite choke core for a couple dollars will likely fix the issue for users. Wrap the stick end cable around it a few times, plug it into the stick. Another single clam-on at the end of the one that goes into your computer would be a nice insurance just in case there is other interference I didn't notice in the rest of the cabling.

A word on the deadzones: they don't function like you'd normally think. They are just a pressure buffer. They reject a portion of the initial force before deflection starts to register. Since there's no stick movement at all, it's not like substantial deadzones are unnatural or show dead play in the middle of the stick's motion. It's just hand pressure that can occur -- like your palm just resting on the hand rest -- that doesn't do anything. So deadzones are absolutely necessary. Unless you've got them in the sim, there has to be something in the Saitek control panel set for this. As the interference has been reduced drastically with the choke cores, I can make these deadzones smaller. It's also important to point out that the deadzones do not scale in width as you change forces with the F1-F4 console panel box. A setting to change the width automatically might actually be nice (1.0:1.0 to 2.0:1.0 from F1 to F4), but as it is you just need to realize that while a very small deadzone is required at F1 (even when I have it reduced further, especially in the twist force), you'll need to be extra careful when you drop the force down on-the-fly. Conversely, if you start out at F4 or F3 with a more substantial deadzone and then later change to F1 while in-sim, you're rejecting a lot of initial pressure unnecessarily. So right now you either have to compromise or optimize the deadzone for the particular force you will mostly be using. And like I said, my deadzones are finally getting down to reasonable ones.

I'm still considering getting rudder pedals, but that's now because of axis pollution and unintended deflection of X & Y when trying to yaw in helo sims when I have hover hold turned on. To be fair, I believe even the RAH-66 had a pinkie button on the SAC related to yaw for the purpose of trimming and axis isolation. So it's not just endemic to force sensing on the X-65f. With the interference issues finally being obviously mitigated (the changes with the choke cores are not subtle), my issues with force sensing are general now to the technology as a whole. I don't think much of it for general flying purposes in fixed-wing aircraft. I doubt Airbus 300 series aircraft will ever move away from normal joysticks to force sensing. It does help with aiming the gun in aircraft that don't require constant stick pressure to maintain attitude, but just simple aerobatics and landings are more sloppy. Aiming is surreal under the aforementioned circumstance, but AFCS Trim Update helicopter flying is definitely where this pressure/force sensing thing comes into its own. While I can see why a little bit of deflection was added on the F-16 and RA-66 sticks to help with axis pollution, it really works wonderfully mimicking this AFCS chopper stuff regardless.

The perfect implementation would have adjustable throw AND pressure sensing for a helo attitude hold/ attitude command side stick. That way, when you go to a Wings Leveling flight law for landing, you could have a lot of throw, low sensitivity, and the stick would behave almost like a conventional joystick so that stick position reflect aircraft attitude. When you were in normal flight, it would have little or no throw. But that's asking a lot. Pressure sticks can do things normal joysticks cannot as-is, and vice versa. And I suppose the same is true with force feedback joysticks, as well. For the price I paid, I’d really like to try the G940 to have a better sense of what that actually means, but that apparently has some severe issues that require serious modding to remedy, and it does not appear that resolves all of them. Considering my interest in GlovePIE/PPJoy for this helo auto trimming stuff, I think I will keep the X-65f and simply eventually have my X52 sent to me from storage for situations where it is not appropriate: driving sims, Search & Rescue 4, etc. Hopefully, my JFA-18 traps improve. But I was fine with the X52 on that. Probably has something to do with the real flight laws of the Superbug when gear is down. Not identical to, say, an F-16’s in holding attitude.

I think I'm mostly done with modding someone's F4AF profile and created a single-mode EECH profile. The latter is still missing a few things like time acceleration I think, but most of what I want is on there. I haven't bothered trying to figure out pinkie-shift with the STT software. A S&R4 profile is about 2/3 the way finished, but I don't know if I'll get around to completing it with the trim button (num 0?) not functioning and the odd mention of turning the AFCS off without a command to actually do it. Seems like an unfinished stinker. I still need to do profiles at least for JFA-18, Flaming Cliffs 1, Comanche Gold, and WWII Fighters (easy).

Edit:

Two more days with JFA-18 and I'm starting to get the hang of traps with this. Maybe Janes does attitude hold to 1G with the gear down? The key is no deadzones within Janes. Deadzones reduced quite a lot in the Saitek panel. They're minimal, now. One notch of nonlinearity in Saitek panel for X, Y, and twist (I use it for every sim, probably not necessary with Janes). The ferrite choke cores. And lots of practice. I also have the stick tilted back with something under the front of it a little over an inch tall (Boxer screw/hex set red/black) that forces it to center offset so hand pressure doesn't cause as much back Y without me trying. The very gentle internal axis curve of JFA-18 works quite well as-is with pressure/force sensing and this configuration.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3718/x65fdeadzones.jpg

Here's what I settled on for forces a week ago:

Kgf & N m

F1 (great for Time Accel)
1.88
2.50
2.10

F2
1.25
1.88
1.80

F3 (just trapped fine three times in JFA-18)
0.78
1.25
1.40

F4
0.47
0.78
0.90

Edit: Made the axiis totally linear. Found I didn't have enough authority at low pressures in WWII Fighters. A reset button for those would be nice.