Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog Discussion Thread

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I guess the Saitek and Logitech offerings have convinced them it's time to replace the Cougar?




The Jedi Master

Competition is a good thing

Hopefully TM will produce a stick that will build on the strengths of the Cougar while learning from past shortcomings. TM has finally embraced Hall effect sensors, now they need high quality gimbals and switch housings out of the box, not imported from Australia (Uber customer #055, right here). Software is great, hardware could be as good if they do it right the first time.

Ooh, does this mean that they're going to produce a split-throttle based on the A-10's this time?

(The stick wouldn't change much, though, as it's practically identical to the F-16 design they've used since the FLCS.)

It's also about damn time they brought out a successor to the ol' Cougar. Hopefully, they'll refine the software even further, as I find it second only to CH Products' astounding Control Manager. Perhaps they'll take the opportunity to regain the programmability lead here?

Finally, from their talk of Hall sensors, it will most likely be a traditional deflecting stick, unlike my FCC-modded Cougar or the upcoming Saitek X65F. If that's the case, will it have force-feedback, or will FFB within a HOTAS still remain the exclusive realm of Logitech?

P.S.: I hope to goodness that the paint on the Warthog stays on much better than the Cougar. The paint on mine is starting to peel off pretty badly, especially after wiping it down to get the gunk off that bare human hands leave after a bit of hard dogfighting. Also, if there are rotaries, can the electrical range be the full physical range with the electrical center right where the physical detent is this time?

The A-10C doesn't have a strain guages IRL, so the stick will most likely move. Whether they will use potentionometers or HS remains to be seen...



Most of these smaller fixes have been corrected on newer serial #'s of the HOTAS Cougar lineup. My main stick has a 18,000-serial and the paint is almost entirely worn off the FLCS handle down to bare metal from top to bottom on one side of the handle. I also have a 33,000-serial stick (NIB) and it has a completely different type of paint coating on it (matte instead of glossy finish) and I'd suspect it's more "peel resistant". The antenna elev rotary has its detent in the correct place, speed brake-, and dogfight switches are also aligned out of the box on my newer serial... I know for a fact that TM has made small corrections to the HC over the years (and between various serial batches), but exactly what they are I'm not sure of. These are just my own observations between several HC I own, and I can tell you for a fact that there are some very noticable differences between the 18,000-serial and the 33,000-serial.

Another one that comes to mind is the use of Allen screws to secure the stick handle on the shaft instead of Phillips head.

Whoa, had no idea there were refinements, my stick is #2785 ... no peeling paint though, I guess my sweat isn't as acidic as others'. If it makes you feel better paint wearing off metal controls is quite normal over time, the yokes in the DC-9s I used to fly had a lot of paint wear.

Really? My Cougar's serial is 14832, which could have something to do with it. I also have an annoying issue with unreliable microstick Y-axis response that I hope they've fixed by now

I've thought about picking up a brand new Cougar and transplanting my FCC-1 into its stick base to get rid of some of the little idiosynchranies, but then Logitech and Saitek started announcing new stuff...and now Thrustmaster has this.

Your comments on new Cougars fixing the issues that fed anti-TM fanboys in HOTAS flamewars of years past makes me want to do that...but not until I see just what the heck this HOTAS Warthog is. (I really would love to have a split-throttle, though it would take away from the authenticity factor in Falcon 4.0...but even in that same title, having dedicated engine control for F-15s and such would make it worth it.)

I just hope they'll use a better gimbal system and HALL sensors this time. Don't want to order multiple parts from all over the world to get this thing right.

These were in design well before they learned of the Saitek and Logitech offerings. (I know because I was there.) I can't release further details yet as I'm under contract and NDA, but the name pretty much gives it away as to what's coming.

Nutty

Thanks Nutty!

Something tells me if it wasn't for you there'd be no Cougar nor Warthog...

Is that so? Sounds like they're taking their time to make sure they get everything right so as to not have a repeat of the early Cougar issues. (Blown throttle pots with firmware flashes, misaligned speedbrake switches, paint problems, cheap metal, cheap pots, etc.)

So, new version of Foxy? Or essentially new hardware and the same software? I know CH types like to go on about how their software can do 128 (?) flags per mode but really, has anyone exhausted the Cougar's 48?

How good would it be if the throttle (presumably split) was compatible with the Cougar and available separately? Then I could keep my lovely NXT #094

Nice. Although I was thinking of the Saitek or Logitech to complement my Cougar, now there is a third potential newcommer to think about!

Bit like buses this isn't it. Wait around (for years) for something to come along and then 3 come along at once...!

Good timing with the upcoming DCS A10 sim...

Well, whether they were spurred on by rumors of competitors' offerings or not, there's no doubt the Cougar design is aging. I have an 18000 serial model that I bought 4 years ago, and even then the Cougar wasn't a new design...in other words I can't recall when it came out!
However, I will say without reservation I preferred my FLCS/TQS w/digital chips that I'd been using for several years (after I upgraded it from the stock version I'd been using since 1995) to the Cougar, but when I gave up my SB Audigy w/gameport I had no choice but to go USB as the gameport built onto my mobo was utter crap--spikes in every axis multiple times a second. I went with the Cougar for 2 reasons--I could plug in my RCS, and the FLCS digital profiles I'd been using were easily altered to the Cougar so I had minimal downtime over switching to the CH setup. The RCS meant I saved $100 over getting replacement pedals, too.

I need something fast as I'm getting spiking now and lots of irregularities, but I want to see what this Warthog is before I choose.

I take it, James, that the NDA means you can't even tell us when it will be announced, let alone when it will be on the market.



The Jedi Master

I have a feeling that, having been singularly disappointed with the G940 (not enough buttons and programming capability and made of...'plastic' *spit*) that this is going to be an immediate purchase...and I bet I've got it in pieces within an hour as well

Hopefully there are details soon. I'm going to upgrade in the near future, if it sounds like a fight I'll wait a bit longer. If we're teased and strung along I'll make a decision without it. We don't need specifics, but an overall feature list would be nice, many are clamoring for FFB options..

If you still are on Windows XP as I am why do you not just put in your SB Audigy (or get a cheap SB Live) and disable the soundcard in Device Manager and only use the gameport? Thats what I do and I'm still using my old thrusty FLCS/TQS w/digital chips!

Edit: Just wanted to add that there are workarounds to get the gameport working also on Vista even if M$ for some reason decided to make it obsolete! I don't know if the same driver will also work with Windows 7 but if you Google for "Gameport support pack + Daniel Kawakami" you probably will find out. Personally I'm staying with Windows XP Pro until a "must have sim" forces me to update to Windows 7 or above.

/KC

Just saw this and decided to hop on over to Frugalsworld for any gleaning of information...knowing that whatever is over there has already been read over here...anyway that place is down more than a hooker during fleet week.

What is the deal with it.

Back on subject though...isn't an A-10 throttle just like the old style that TM used for the WCS setup years ago?

I still have one of the sets here in a box and I don't think it was ever used.

The WCS' appearance was similar, but it was a single axis i.e. not split. I'm guessing this will be based on the A-10C's stick, not until we know more...

As for my Audigy, one, I don't know if I recall where it is and two, I don't think I have a free PCI slot! My X Fi and my NIC take 2 of them and my video card blocks a 3rd slot.
I suppose I could try that route, but I wish someone had told me about it 4 years ago before I bought this Cougar!!


The Jedi Master

New hardware, new software.



Just add some Cougar MFDs, or GoFlight panels, or RealSimulator hardware etc. if you want more buttons and do away with needing multiple flags to squeeze multiple functions onto one button. Much as I used to love squeezing and reading through various users' logical programming, I'm gettin' too old and lazy for it all these days. It's easier now for me to press a different button or flick a switch on a panel.


Cheers

Nutty

Good point.
I don't like to do "5 things" with the same joy button, this cause a mess in my brain.

In IL-2 I prefer assign functions to buttons in game GUI, cause I can chance any button assignment "in game".

Sokol1

Or, while in the buying mood you can buy one or more CH MFP's and set up a whole mess of systems to your liking.

I'm going to buy a second setup when SOW comes out, but if the innards look anything like the cougar when pics start coming out - forget it. I'll just get a second CH fighterstick setup.

If this is a hint that the new software isn't going to be as flexible as Foxy then I'm worried.

just do what i did...

get a ch combatstick, and mod a Suncom SFS throttle (with a the CH products joystick circuit board)...

I used to have a Suncom SFS Throttle myself, with full intent to mod it to USB.

...I never did. The main confusing part were those weird linear pots with only two pins rather than the usual three, not to mention figuring out how I'd ever manage to wire up the rest of the thing.

Hot damn Nutty that is great news!

I hope you make Foxy support the Cougar and the Split throttle simultaneously so those of us with modded NXT's will be able to use it. I'll buy the new stick just for the throttle.

We HAVE winner!!!

Nice job.

Now, how could I find myself one of those dual throttles???

It's a Suncom SFS Throttle. Suncom went out of business years ago, so you are going to have to look for a used one (if somebody has one new in the box, it will probably be priced just slightly lower than a Van Gogh painting).

The Suncom SFS throttle is an old analog game port and keyboard device. To make it into a USB device will not be trivial. There is an excellent (but old) thread on converting Suncom sticks and throttle to USB over in the X-Plane forums:
http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=27496

It is a 15 page thread, but if you want to undertake converting Suncom controllers to USB, there are ome real gems in there.

Of course, Hannibal's specific approach (using a board from a USB joystick) is proven to work, but you would probably still benefit from reading that thread. One item that was a bit surprising is that NONE of the buttons (switches) in the SFS throttle are seen by your computer as joystick buttons. They are all feeding into a keyboard emulator.

I'm still thinking about converting mine, but I'd probably use a Leo Bodnar board. With at least 3 major game controller manufacturers offering split throttle controllers now (Logitech), or in the near future (Saitek and Thrustmaster), it's getting a little less tempting to take that task on. Time will tell.

If only I saw that thread several years ago...

There would have been a key difference, however-since I had the SFS Throttle paired with a TM F-22 Pro at the time, I wanted to take the analog gameport passthrough on the SFS Throttle and pass it to the USB controller's X/Y axes and first four buttons so as to keep the whole setup under one DirectInput ID.

Also, there's no way I would've left keyboard emulation on the SFS itself-especially with those bottom two side switches limited to program switching. Everything on there would have been a DirectInput button, and I might have even considered changing the outer rocker to a proper rotary and adding another axis that way.

During the time I did have it, though, I do have to say that the SFS Throttle did feel pretty good in my hands and had a nice, smooth throw. Same could be said of Suncom's sticks-I found an F-15 Hawk at a thrift store a while back, and while it was an extremely basic stick, it felt like they got the stick movement feel just right. It was also very ergonomic overall. Too bad that even the top shelf Eagle/Talon sticks are missing a few switches from the real F-15 stick (paddle switch, second trigger detent, the "button" on the left side of the shaft should be three-way).

Oh, I know what they are and they are hard to come by, hence the question.

There was a time - before Leo's interface - where people didn't know what to do with them, and they actually sold for quite cheap.
Now, you're lucky if you can get your hands on them for a reasonable price.
I am familiar with that link, but thanks for posting it. I have missed some updates.
Granbichus did quite a nice job on that Suncom Eagle.

+ 1.
Despite the needs for the mods to improve the working of the Cougar ( also i'm a nxt user with Cub pilot hall sensors), the Cougar with foxy its still for me unreplaceble.
My question is with the rudder control. Will it comes with a rudder device, i very much doubt that, in that case will they release a new rudder control not usb that can be plugged to the Hoyas Cougar or Hotas Warthog?
I would like that in order to avoid using a usb port for an external rudder device, like i have to do now.

Are there any drawbacks to that?

I certainly hope they are using the heart technology - I have their cheap-o T-16000 and that 40 dollar stick is a more accurate (gunnery in IL2) stick when paired with my simpeds than my cougar ever was.

It almost rivals my CH fighterstick as far as getting bullets on the enemy - but the CH edges it out because of distinct X & Y axis gimbals reduce unintended control input.

This warthog needs better gimbals too. If anything, base it off gimbals you see in high end full ball bearing rc plane transmitters - much like CH but larger and stronger so we can extend the shaft if desired.

If bearings make end product over price point then toss bushing the user can upgrade with common bearing sizes. If anything, the mod community has shown people want higher quality components. The cougar looked high-end on the outside and was anything but that on the inside.

Four bearings in a 300/400 U$ stick don't have significant impact in cost.
Don't make sense today, after many issues with Cougar gimbal don't move to bearings use.
Logitech G940 have four in stick gimbal.

We need josyticks with excellent internal quality, not only with beautiful appearance.

Sokol1

Yea, now that I think about it, I agree. Bearings are so cheap these days it seems silly not to include them.

Looking at rc airplane radios for example, many people go through the trouble of voiding their warranty on a DX-7 ($220 radio) to replace gimbal bushings with a couple bucks worth of bearings.

Yes, using more usb ports than needed, and with so many usb thing today, sometime you start to get short on them. I dont have a usb hub, and will not get one neither .
Also, when i dont use the hotas i unplug it, with the rudder i dont have a choice that plug them in the back on the pc, and i can't unplug them easily.

I'm certainly expecting they have learned their lesson. They must have had thousands of warranty returns because of the poor quality pots and poor quality metal, that eventually caused major center play. Those two things were the biggest issues with Cougar.

I agree with everything here including the last part as most important. When you deal with cheap, low quality, Chinese metal forge operations then you get cheap, low quality Chinese goods. When you deal with good price point, good quality Chinese metal forge operations you still get cheap, low quality Chinese goods but you paid more for them.

The problem isn't that the Cougar was bad. For me it was a super piece of flight simulation gear that lasted quite a while for the money I paid when it was released. However it was a shot in the dark as to which type of metal the insides were going to be made from. For me mine must have been made on a great day where they paid more money to Joe Chinese metal chemist than the other days because it has worked great up until now. Now waiting on funds to make a U2Nxt purchase for my second Cougar or should I wait on the Warthog to see what they put inside the sucker. Funds are limited to one or the other and not both.

This is what I'm interested in, more specifically how far along in the development process are they, it seems a lot of people are offering their $.02 about gimbals/quality but this may be all moot points if the Warthog innards are already a done deal. Advertising has already begun, albeit in the early stages, not even a concept pic released yet. Remember the bare aluminum Cougar?

I know one thing for sure, if the gimbals look even remotely like the old ones - no sale.

Seriously, with all their resouces they should AT LEAST be able to match the quality and design of the modded gimbals that have been produced for the cougar by the community.

If they are using the Heart sensor, then they don't even need to worry about mounting pots or hall sensors to each axis and they can use a vastly better gimbal. If they come out with the same gimbal and just rip out the pots and stick the hall sensor under the shaft - that will be a clear sign they don't give a damn about giving us a quality product.

Already got a G940 to replace my wobbly mess of a Coguar.
So no sale for me.

I agree. The Gimbals better be better than the Crappy Coguar ones.
Big dead zone and enough wobble to make accurate gunnery next to impossible.
Any joystick in that price range that requires an expensive mod just to get it to work right is a farce.

I hope as well it has the twin throttles of a A10, not a single F-16 type one.
I also hope it's for an A10-C not the old A model. More butons and such like then.

A prototype image would be nice.
As would a projected release time.
We talking 'out for this Christmas' or 'spring 2020' ?

Interesting for the real life A-10C cockpit shot - since the SFS Throttle was originally replicated after the F-15, does that mean the real A-10 uses the same throttle and the stick design from a F-16 now? Certainly seems like it.

Thrustmaster are either lucky or clever given that DCS Warthog will be the most high-fidelity Jet sim built so far, and they are matching their unit to that sim.

A-10C stick reminder F-16 ones:



http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a299/u...it20A10_650.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a299/u...ck20a10_650.jpg

http://www.thewarthogpen.com/a-10c_files/pic3.JPG

http://www.thewarthogpen.com/a-10c_files/pic4.JPG

Sokol1

Once again; great information/pics from sokol1. Thanks for sharing these!
Regards,
MudPuppy

Looks like an F-15E Throttle combined with a F-16 stick.

Well the Warthog HOTAS is already halfway there if it is an F-16 stick.

Pretty much the F-15E throttle minus the antenna elevation wheel on the outboard side. In place of the CMD switch below the wheel on the F-15E there is a typical toggle switch which controls the master exterior lights/missile polarity. I don't believe that part has changed on the -C. Oh, and of course the afterburner finger-lifts are gone too from the -E throttle

Interesting, I'm sure it's not the first time it's ever been done, but the first time I notice an aircraft getting "off the shelf" controls from previous airframes.

Oh, and the one with Afterburners will be the A-10X

If those pictures are indicative of the final product other than in gimbals then count me out on this one. I can do better with my IJ upgraded Cougar and still be happy.

Annnnnnd *poof* the AD is gone!

What happened? Seriously, not even a mention of it anywhere on their site...

Ad? WHat ad? What are you talking about??? A10 HOTAS?? Never heard of it!!

I'm surprised you're here yourself.

Usually, when some people have seen too much they shouldn't have seen ...

Huh? Who could be knocking at my door at this time of the day???

2-3 more years and then perhaps we will have something to replace it...or it could be that we influenced the development here by stating that we didn't want some screwed up inner pieces like the Cougar has in them to start with...well that is just me being wishful...oh well it never hurts to dream up things for these threads.

Well knowing what I do about site maintaining, someone got a request for new flash banner, and out goes the old one. I don't think this is anything more serious than a simple "insert new banner here" request.

Well, a new banner is up!!

Lots more fuel for speculation now!!

http://www.thrustmaster.com

Cheers

Well, if it weighs 13 pounds - shouldn't one expect that the internals/parts are solid and built to last?

Let's hope so.

I also hope the spring tension isn't so crazy that it hurts my arm like the cougar - or at least adjustable.

Also, the stick base looks modular - any chance they plan on shaft extensions?

Where is Ghost now?
Quick Ghost, post a pic of a stick that only the United States Military can buy!

[img]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=830089&id=1388526347&fbid=1281611565571[/img]

Thought you guys might want to see this that was on the board at HTC for the CH A-10 USAF only HOTAS.

Judging from that short glimpse, it definitely preserves that military look that only Thrustmaster tends to have (and only Suncom ever approached), not to mention that there are some switches on the throttle's base.

There are still many unanswered questions, though...what are the internals like, for instance? (In particular, will the stick be force-feedback?)

All in all, though, this could be my next HOTAS. I like my Cougar and all, but the peeling paint on the stick is really getting to me now, not to mention that split-throttles can be handy and force-sensing sticks aren't always suitable (*cough*IL-2*cough*).

I hope not... the A-10 isn't force feedback or force sensor. I suspect the stick will be similiar to the Cougar but only time will tell.

I would but then they'd have to kill me

Hmmm, first I've heard of a deflecting stick that was fly-by-wire and NOT force-feedback, since I thought all FBW sticks were tensometric like the F-16's and all deflecting sticks had mechanical connections to the control surfaces, thus any forces exerted on the surfaces would manifest themselves in the stick.

Then again, I did hear about a report of an A-10 pilot bringing home a damaged bird with a dead stick with nothing more than a backup control system consisting of strings and pulleys, which does suggest that the stick isn't really coupled to the controls directly.

Still, I was wondering mostly because it seems odd that the Logitech G940 is the only serious HOTAS on the market with force-feedback, something desirable for old warbirds (but not modern jets)...

The A-10, and other aircraft of its generation, have hydraulically boosted controls. The A-10 also has a system called manual reversion where the pilot can move the flight control surfaces directly, without any hydraulic boost.

There are many fly-by-wire aircraft without force-sensing sticks - just about every one except the F-16. Take the F-18, for example; in this aircraft the pilot places the stick where he wants it, and then the computers interpret this input and decide which flight control surfaces to move to achieve the commanded aircraft behavior. There is no mechanical linkage between the stick and the flight control surfaces; a motor in the stick base provides feedback to the pilot.

Other aircraft with force-sensing stick would be F-35, F-22, and RAH-66 Commanche (cancelled). Also, the AH-1Z has such a stick (which is also taken from the F-16).

What I find interesting in watching the banner at TM's site is how high the stick base appears to sit on the actual base itself. Almost like there is some sort of motor that would drive the stick or something that is holding it tighter than the stock Cougar.

I wonder how much longer we will have to wait on the information and if Frugals is going to come back up with more information IF/WHEN they ever put it back up.

It almost looks like a force-sensing module like the Cougar's FSSB canister...

Nope, control tubes...

Interesting, well, you would know. So the stick does move around then?

I'm starting to think based on the pics that this must be force sensing (which sucks).

Think about, the way the stick is connected the cylinder on the base, it doesn't leave any room for gimbals.

It may be a hybrid where it is force sensing below a spring to allow some deflection in the stick.

Everybody likes to speculate so here`s my predictions:

1. Stick. deflecting with hall sensor(s), helical spring with adjustable tension, not force feedback, very similar to but not the same as an F16 stick.

2. Throttle. hall sensor with ancillary function buttons on the base, adjustable tension.

3. Available Q2 2010, retailing at $400 to $500

4. Rudder pedals. A new three axis pedal set up by Q4.

these are just my musings so don`t take em too seriously

all the best

Yes, in a Z, both in the front and back seat. It's PIC choice as to what cockpit he/she wants to fly from, typicaly it's from the front.

Not too bad but I wouldn't put any thoughts down about a new rudder setup from them. Also I think the cost may be a bit on the high side with them already having the stick molds ready and working from the Cougar. About the others....well we just have to wait and see.

Waiting and seeing is the hardest part. I figured this would be out in time for Christmas, because the first ad showed up on their site back in October.

Any new news?

Came here asking my self the same thing . Aparently not.

I only hope its not force sensor, but i also agree looks like it will be force sensor.

I did some GIMPing, here's what we are probably looking at based on the new 'pit shots of the DCS A-10 sim, and the flash ad:

It'll have Hall-Sensors

It also says "this is the end of the era of gimbals and potentiometers". Pots, maybe, but there's no doubt the throttles will have gimbals, because they rotate about an axis.

The only way the stick will have no gimbals is if it's force-sensing...

Or if it's stuck in a big piece of Rubber.

If it uses hall sensors then there must be some movement.

Hmmm, good point.

I have a feeling the "end of the era of gimbals" is just a marketing statement. Everyone complains about the Cougar's stock gimbals, so it sounds good to say they're getting rid of them.

It's not just a marketing statement bud. The internals are a complete departure from the F22 / Cougar design.

More news to follow on that and other aspects I'm sure.

Cheers

James

My 0,02 = This Warthog is "force sensor" stick like X-65F... Affter all, many Cougar uses spend almost U$ 1000 to MOD yours to force sense...

And, no make sense continue use pots in "hight end" HOTAS: totay all in one HALL sensor is cheap than a reasonable pot... Luck of end users.

Sokol1

How can it be a force sensor stick and yet still use Hall sensors? They need movement to work. It would also seem pretty pointless developing such a high spec stick/throttle (given the quoted resolution specs) modelled on a specific aircraft and then go with a totally different mechanism than the real bird...

I'm assuming from James's comments that they have developed or are using a different movement mechanism than traditional gimbals - perhaps it is some kind of semi-rigid material that needs no moving parts that allows the stick full movement travel with a 3d Hall sensor mounted below or some kind of rigid spring?

Seems it's using the same tech as the Thrustmaster T.16000M (H.E.A.R.T - HALLEFFECT ACCURATE TECHNOLOGY™), although much higher resolution (T.16000M 14 bit, new Warthog 16 bit on stick), so I do believe this thing will move, and it got the same ''ball'' underneath, only thing is that judging the picture from the stick, it looks like there isn't much movement area, so still not really sure.

It is not a force sensor stick. The stick moves.

I'm a big fan of force sensor sticks. I use a FSSB R2 modded Cougar daily flying the F-16 in the 87th, and am therefore a big fan of force sensor technology. But if I could only have one stick, particularly if I flew WW2 sims, I'd definitely want one that moves. So I think it's a brave move for any company to consider mass sales of a force sensor stick. But kudos on others for throwing more choice our way. Always to be applauded.

Nutty

I thought you were just hoping that's what the throttle would feature but I see now from the add that it will indeed feature additional controls, switches etc.! Great stuff.

That throttle looks really awsome yes, I just wish they would sell them separate, saitek same, for me I rather have rudder on my stick, since I can't sit comfortable with foot rudders. Got the Thrustmaster 16000M and while the stick is great, the throttle on it not, so having the option buying such great throttle(s) as a stand alone product, would be my wish.

Thanks for the (small bit of) info, James. I couldn't stop myself from speculating today, but I will just sit back and wait for official info.

Nutty,

This statement has decided many pre-orders.

Sokol1

Can anyone give a rough estimation of when it will hit the market? I may have missed it, and I apologize if I did, but there will be some money in the budget this March so I'd like to plan my strategy now for getting it in the house under the radar!

Thanks

A bit unrelated to this, since it's a complete product. However, it think it should be possible to actually have both. Use force sensors on the stick, detecting the bending moment, and a centering spring underneath the assembly with tension adjustment and ultimately stick lock to sort out the amount of movement allowed, if any, and strength of return. Adding in force feedback would still be messy, though. Btw, love my Cougar, and love Foxy, I just wish it could run it in Linux too, but you can't have everything...

Link to full size banner - http://www.thrustmaster.com/Upload/1/1/Banniere/430/anim.swf

Will Guillemot/Thrustmaster stop being such a cocktease already?

Even with all the rampant CES coverage, I still haven't seen anything concrete on the HOTAS Warthog yet!

This could very well be my next HOTAS (I might-just might-sell my Cougar to get one), but I have to make sure this one's exactly what I want first!

Yes it has....thank goodness that TM isn't going down that road.

Seems like they didn't show it at the CES or I must have missed it. Shame! When can we expect more info?

I was expecting full disclosure in CES...we didn't get that. Actually, the only thing we got was a slighty updated flash ad on their site.

I have feeling we will be waiting it for a long time

Anybody know what type of rudder pedals it can use - USB, 15 pin, or proprietary? Be nice if I could use the Simpeds I currently use with my Cougar.

V/R

Bob Mercer

I strongly hope that it will be seperate from the rudder pedals, just like Saitek or CH.

No one HOTAS or stick restrain use stand alone USB Rudder Pedal. So...

You can use stand alone rudder pedal with X-52/PRo that HAVE twist rudder, just reconfigure axis.

This is problem (USB HOTAS plus stand alone rudder pedal) if you use old games, ie Red Baron3D.

The advantage of Cougar + gameport (today only Simped or VKB have compatible versions) rudder pedal is that is turned in one virtual device for Windows (CH do this too).

Sokol1

That's another big question of mine, given that I have a set of Hall sensor-modded RCS pedals to go with my Cougar.

I'd prefer for whatever solution it is to hook into the HOTAS Warthog directly, or do whatever is necessary to function under the same DirectInput ID.

Yep I would prefer a direct connection to the others just like my Cougar.

I think there is no chance a gameport interface will be included for pedals. It is a dead technology from Vista on.

I hope:
- no basic hardware faults like the speedbrake alignment issue and sloppy gimbals on the Cougar HOTAS
- better out of the box reliability than the Cougar MFDs
- Thrustmaster come out with their own widely spaced three axis pedals
- no USB issues
- the new programming system isn't borked by dumbing it down. James Hallows has indicated on a posting on the Eagle.ru Forums it won't be using Foxy but will be hopefully as good or better.

Thrustmaster make its own pedals? Nah, simped is all you need - none of the other pedals on the market I've tried even come close. Not being made by a worker earning 50 cents and hour is another bonus of getting simped pedals.

My simpeds have outlasted my cougar and will probably outlast my CH fighter stick if I pick up a warthog.

Not surprising, given that a set of Simped F-16Cs would probably cost me as much as my FCC-modded Cougar already did (US$333 shipped), if not more, especially due to how much the US$-to-Euro conversion rate sucks and the expensive international shipping I'd have to pay for. Too bad I just don't have that kind of money to spend any more.

Are simpeds still being made after the chap doing them sadly passed away...?

Yes, in six versions:

http://www.dhs-electronic.de/index2.php?id=216&lng=en

C versions are to plug into Cougar gameport conector.

Sokol1

W-W-WHAT? Dieter Hoffman (IIRC) is DEAD?

*sits silent while sending thoughts and prayers*

I believe I remember reading this too a while back, his family may have carried on though. Or theres a stock of them still being sold or people selling used.

They did carry on and I got an email and then I saw the posting on Frugals over a year ago about his death. I was trying to work out a deal to be the exclusive distributor for Simpeds here in North America but it all fell through when he passed away and they stopped taking orders and making them for a while to clear up his estate but they are back producing the pedals now and have been churning them out for a while.

BACK ON TOPIC though

For Thommo

Why would gameport on a device be effected by it not being recognized in Vista and any forward OS's? I ran my Cougar/RCS pedals connected to several different computers with Vista installations. I just don't see how that statement is even close to what we all know about a sound card with a gameport on Vista; even though there are workarounds to get a sound card with gameport working in Vista.

Although it's true that gameport pedals connected to a Cougar don't result in any typical "gameport issues" (since the computer never sees the gameport), it would be strange for Thrustmaster to produce a new gameport device in 2010. They would be better served by creating pedals with a proprietary connector that are a dedicated addon to the HOTAS Warthog (like G940 pedals, only sold separately), or by creating standalone USB pedals and allowing their programmability and controller-combining in software that it like CH Control Manager.

The best move is:

USB pedal (stand alone) with switch to work as slave (like G940 pedal) with Warthog - in this case using a (optional) cheap PS2 (or DB-9, DB-15, proprietary...) style cable.

This solution pleases who wants a new (USB)stand alone pedal and who wants one to integrate (as slave) with Warthog.
Is cheap: cost more one 6 pole switch and one PS2 connector. Is like one MOD to CH PRO Pedal work as USB or plug in Cougar gameport. Seems that lack vision of market to peripheral manufacturers...

Sokol1

I am all for new pedals as long as they have toe brakes. They had a great basic design with the RCS but could/should have improved upon it instead of letting them die off.

The only question I have left . . . when can I trade Thrusmaster my money for their HOTAS?

The question is, will Oleg beat the Warthog with regards to being released?

How long is it since the first teasers about the Warthog came out? And yet we've not seen any real info on it..

Well, I hope it is sometime in the near future. I was not that impressed with the G940, but if I go back to my Cougar, I'd really need to put the hall sensors in, which would seem an unnecessary expense if the Warthog was near release.

Two weeks?

Hopefully it doesn't require a constant internet connection to use...

LOL I heard it uses Star Force!

Nope, doesn't seem so, as it's now 15 days later and no Warthog.

Man, I wish we could get some information on this.
I have been needing a new system for a while. Well,,, 'wanting' more than actually 'needing', but my X45 is spiking some around center. So far it is very minor and doesn't cause any real flight problems, but I want to replace it.
I bought a X52 Pro a few weeks ago, but had to return it because they sent me a standard X52. Actually, I was glad it happened, since i have decided to get a twin throttle lever system.

I don't like the new Saitek. It just wouldn't suit me well. Nice system though.
The G940 is something I was ready to get. Then a few days ago, I found out about the Warthog. I really like what little I have seen on the new Thrustmaster. The panel is terrific and I would certainly like that in FSX, A-10 and SoW when they come out. But I am so tired of waiting. I don't want to buy the G940 and then weeks later the Warthog hits the market.
LOL, I don't need but one and don't want to maybe end up buying two.

I know, not really adding anything to the thread, sorry. I needed to vent my frustration over not knowing when these will be for sale.

I've been frustrated too.

Until I watched the flash banner through again and found out it now has "Available spring 2010" at the end.

And as Wikipedia puts it:"In the Northern Hemisphere, spring runs from March into May"

Thanks.
I believe I will wait and see more about this one before I buy.

Hmm, in the southern hemispere it starts 6 months later.

Hmmmm

The last major stick release from TM happened on March 3, 2003....coincidence that they are saying "Available Spring 2010"....more to come later.

The one thing I noticed is the secondary throttle has a button on it.

On the G940, it doen't have one. That fits into my plans of a twin throttle stick setup. I want to remove the handle on the secondary throttle and put a small ball on the shaft to serve as either mixture or (depending on the game) propeller.
Since the Warthog has a button in the second throttle, it will make a modification more complicated.

I am also interested in trying FFB again. I haven't used a FFB stick since probably 2001 when I had a MSFFB on loan for a few weeks. So I'm buying the G940. LOL, I have had one in my shopping cart at Provantage for a couple weeks while I compared features of different skick/throttle combos. FFB isn't a must have, but I am curious to try it again. The secondary throttle being buttonless makes modding it fairly easy. It has all the buttons, knobs, etc. that I will need for the games I play. Overall, it seems to suit my needs better than anything else I have came up with.

I figure I can do the throttle mod to it and once the Warthog is out, I will know if FFB is really something I like. If not, I may then decide to switch to the Warthog. I really do feel like at some point I will own a Warthog. But I just got to give the G940 a shot. I really believe I will like it.

not that much I'd reckon.
You just cut the wires leading to the button and remove the handle with the button.
As far as the Warthog is concerned that button will never be pushed.
You could even add that button elsewhere.

I just went ahead and bought the G940.
Sometime I may get a Warthog. For now the G940 should be okay, as long as I like the FFB.
If not, I can sell it after the Warthog comes out, but I think I will like the FFB, especially since most planes I fly in flight sims are prop planes.

I did give some thought to the throttle on the Warthog, and I too figured I could just put a button somewhere else and wire it to wires from the throttle button. But, decided on the G940 since it should be easy enough to mod the throttle and I really want to try FFB again.

I don't think I made a mistake, but we'll see.

I hope this thing will feature a gameport, so i can connect my SIMPED F-16 Cougar Pedals. I doubt that the pedals will work with a gameport/USB adapter.

Well after a couple hours with the G940 in RoF, FSX, FS9 and Wop, I think I may really keep a close eye on the Warthog.

The G940 is a nice system, but I don't know about the FFB. True I am not used to it, but it is very generic feeling. I think I would rather have a stiffly sprung non-FFB. But it is early and I haven't messed with the FFB settings very much yet. Just experimenting now with different things.

I don't even know if any of the flight sims have config files for FFB effects or not. If they do, maybe I can get something nicer with edits.

I will be able to easily remove this throttle handle and replace it with a ball. It will be perfect like that, especially if I fabricate an extension on the left side of the main throttle to support that part of my palm. The secondary throttle with a small ball will be low enough to be out of the way, but easy to reach with my pinky and ring fingers, without needing to take my hand off the main throttle. Of course this can probably be done with the Warthog too, but it is very simple to do on the G940.

I certainly don't hate it by no means, but it will take some getting used to and some more playing around with the FFB settings to get a really good overall effect, if that's even possible. Unless you have felt the G940, you may not understand what I mean. I imagine anyone that has, knows exactly what I mean. They are good, well built and sturdy units, but FFB is well,,,, generic, mechanical feeling.

I have asked Mr. Hofmann (SIMPED) about the Cougar F-16 pedals and the possibility of using them with an USB adapter. He replied that it doesn't work. All adapters are for analog signals and the SIMPEDs are digital. So when the new HOTAS doesn't feature a gameport, all Cougar pedal owners are stuck for the time beeing. Mr. Hofmann has to build an adapter when the HOTAS has been released.
Problem is that they don't get support from Thrustmaster and also have to buy a retail HOTAS when available.

since my Cougar started behaving strangely (the button-mapping is suddenly all wrong) i've been looking for all info about the Warthog i could get. which isn't much.
interesting enough: amazon germany has it for pre-order:

http://www.amazon.de/Guillemot-HOTAS-War...9454&sr=8-1

date is june 4th, price 359,99 EUR (ca. 489 USD)

they deleted the link

I can only wonder if they'll do a sign swap for the US price (US$359.99 going by that figure), or actually screw us over on the exchange rate. (Then again, a sign swap means the Europeans get screwed over instead.)

When I first saw the flash on the TM site, I figured $400-500 USD for it.
Only a guess of course. I just have a feeling it will be pretty expensive.

Even though I bought a G940, I am still very interested in the WH. It just appears to be something I would really enjoy having, as long as all the switches can be assigned easily in DX. If it is user friendly, works in most any flight sim and has no major design flaws, I could see it as a long term piece of equipment. So even if a good bit more pricey than many HOTAS systems, I would consider that acceptable.

If it is indeed in that price range, then the only chance I have of affording it is to sell off my FCC-modded Cougar and +HS-modded RCS, and I don't feel very comfortable with that just yet, if only because I got a pretty good deal on it to begin with given the force sensor mod.

This is what piggy banks are for! How many kids you guys have? My first child is still unborn but there went her college fund!

3 kids, a new house very soon and the wifes birthday....its a shame she won't get anything from me this year other than a TM Warthog....hehehehe!

Just kidding honey!

Better than a bowling ball with your name on it!

Spring 2010 means anything up to june 20th?

This waiting is frustrating. First it was exciting to see that flash ad in Thrustmaster's website, now plain annoying, because there is no real info about it. We've been "teasered" long enough(about six months).

Seriously Doomer I agree with you.

Not cool TM not cool at all!

You'd think it was in their best interest to post some more news. With the Saitek X65 recently released there may be many going that route instead because of the lack of info from TM whereas if they'd kept feeding us little bits of info and new pics every now and then people may be more inclined to hold on.

Marketting never was their strong point...

"Don't 'tease' me bro!!"

This thing is slowly taking airs of vaporware!

What is real sad though, is that CH products has also a promising product to compete with it, but its release to the common joe is not planned as of yet. It appears nobody wants to lay down their cards and show their hand.

Only sensible solution; DIY!!
At least if you don't get it on time, it's your own fault!

To the best of my knowledge, CH has not "promised" anything. What they have done is release a set for military simulation. That product *may* evolve into a consumer issue in the future. However, that last sentence is pure speculation. Could it happen? Sure. Is it likely? Sure, why not. Has it been "promised"? No, it has not.

Every single time I see a new post in this thread, I have my hopes up that Guillemot/Thrustmaster quit with the cockteasing and just give a proper unveiling already...only to find that they haven't!

At this rate, I'm probably going to just dump any money I get into what I've currently got. Hall sensor for the Cougar throttle, new microstick pots, something that'll fix the handle shaft play in the stick so it works better with the FCC mod, new centering mechanism for the RCS to eliminate the "detent" feel, and of course, linkages for that Strike Force 3D gimbal mod I've had planned for a long while now, but never managed to execute due to having no idea what size those R/C vehicle linkages may be.

I completely agree. And I didn't mean to imply anything else.

I forgot to point out that CH Products' HOTAS setup is most likely far superior than anything Guillemot would be willing to release to the general public.
Their respective clients have different expectations, and in the case of CH Products' setup it would be much more expensive as well.

I guess it depends on what is meant by "much". I bought the Cougar when it first came out. And when it revealed itself to be a steaming pile I switched to CH. The prices were very comparable - at least in my experience. It could be the same again - if such a system was released.

yeah this dicktease is really pissing me off.

Guillemot? James Hallows?

While I'm not a fan of Guillemot based on past experience, I will say that like with sims, it is far better that they take their time and get it right. I'm also not sure that it would be fair to lay any hard feelings on James. He's just responsible for the software. I believe that he is as much at the mercy of the timing gods as we are.

aRareKindOfMonster said "a promising product", not "promised a product". A big difference.

There are several being tested amongst community members, and developers, as we speak. At the moment, fine tuning of the hardware, button responses and axis forces are being undertaken by TM. Kudos to them for taking onboard the suggestions coming at them from the team although it has to be said that most of the suggestions have come from them which has surprised me. NDA and contract and all that, so that's all I'm saying at this point in time.

This will be a popular HOTAS, of that I have no doubt. But not to be accused of bias, by all means, wait and try one and decide for yourself. So far, a lot of great thinking and attention to detail are apparent.

Minor correction to one post: the software for this isn't being developed by me.

Cheers

Nutty

All very well and good; but I'm still left with a bloody poor stick in my Cougar, a fantastic throttle, lovely programming language (yours I believe); and rather than buy add ons I'm about to ship out and buy CM stuff even though I know my hands are too small to reach the buttons. At least the plastic fantastic will work for years and I will get used to it. At the moment I'm 150 quid short, with 20 lbs of cheap alloy, but still with a smidgeon of loyalty to a company who have delivered nowt. Please kick their ring piece upwards towards their olfactory organs whilst they still have a customer base.

Thanks for the update James. This will keep us quiet at least few weeks

Thx James.

But the question remains...if this is still in testing then are we a long way off??

James, can you say anything about the programming software? I'll admit, the Warthog has my attention!

Sorry guys, I'm not in a position to comment on a release date and software capabilities. That's all for Thrustmaster. And yes, I too would love it if they released further information in the near future, especially about the hardware, because there are some very neat features you're going to like.

As soon as I can say more of course, I'd be delighted to pass on as much as I can and answer questions.

Nutty

Well, as small as it is, its very kind of you for giving this small info, and its also nice to see that things are still moving foward and making improvements with the fine tuning of the hardware.

Me too i´m interested on the Warthog, and certainly want to buy it, even if i dont know to i will able to do it considering that in Argentina we have to pay extra 50% of price item plus shipment on import taxes! . But that´s a another story.

Thanks Nutty. It is good to hear that there is some substance to what has been teased. I am looking forward to the product launch - having been let down by the Logitech hardware and some of their design choices (no center dents on the trim/rotary dials and the 'mouse stick' being on the flight stick instead of the throttle). I would just stick to my CH set but the split throttle is such a nice option and the trim wheels, although lacking in center dents, meaning that I have to look at them to center them, is annoying.

I am looking forward to Thrustmaster's entry

Let me throw in my 'thanks' as well, Nutty. It's good of you to post a line or two here every once and awhile to let us know this project is proceeding, albeit slowly.


I don't know if you would be in the know, but has any progress been made towards some sort of programming for the MFD Cougar Pack?

I thought that most if not all Cougar users pimped their tick with the U2 Nxt gimbal mod. That way, the Cougar is perfect when it comes to handling and durability. No more wear and tear. The rest of Cougar doesn't really need any fixing, except for some repositioning of severa buttons, which is fairly easy.
I use mine for almost 7 years now and all i have to do is to change on of the U2 Nxt springs from time to time. They have a tendency to fail after a couple of months. Mostly the y-axis ones.

But nothing really competes with the Cougar! The Warthog will be my next choice but this time, i will wait after the release to see how it really performs and let others beta test this puppy.

+1

Or an FSSB mod - got an R2 in mine...

Maybe if the mods weren't so horrendously expensive, more people would have used them. More than doubling the cost of the initial unit is nuts.

450 Euros ($600+ CDN) + Shipping for the R2? Sure, I'll take 2

Srsly?
If I had to change the springs, any of them, every couple months I would throw that thing through the wall!

I have the Über Cougar I mod (which really cleaned up the action nicely), but the pots are trashed and the speedbreak switch is sketchy, after only 3 months of use. I put it back in the box not wanting to dump any more money into it and several years later it is still sitting in the garage.

Meanwhile my CH gear just kept working with no issues...

Far from it, especially when the total cost is pretty much double that of a brand new Cougar. (Even worse for those of us living west of the Atlantic and thus getting screwed hard on the exchange rate.)

Only reason why I blew US$333 shipped on a used Cougar is that it had the first-generation FCC mod installed, and even though that price hurt my wallet quite a bit (back when I actually had money to blow), it was still CHEAP by modded Cougar standards (especially for any sort of force sensor mod)!


You just have that lying around doing nothing, not even bothering to sell it?

I'm sure someone out there wouldn't mind getting it, plunking down a bit more for a pair of Hall sensors and a new speedbrake switch, and generally putting it to good use.

Also, I'm disappointed in Guillemot/Thrustmaster yet again because they're STILL doing the Flash cocktease with no proper press release...at this rate, maybe they should've taken a page from Apple and not even bring it up until it's about to release in a few months.

Right, the costs were pretty high. But the exchange rate from AUS $ to the € were ok and i got mine via special mates rates by Ian.
The spring "problem" is not really a problem. I may have to change one spring of the y-axis every 10 to 12 months. But Ian wrote about that and you get some spare springs with your Uber mod and can order new sets afterwards. I rather change a spring now and then and have a perfect Cougar feeling then using the plastic fantastic s**t, which looks like a girls toy like CH stuff. CH is very reliable but just doesn't cut the mustache. This stuff is so butt ugly i just can't stand having it standing on my desk.

If you check the press releases of their previous products, you'll see that Guillemot seems to come out with a press release when the release of the product is very close.

If i didn´t have some important things the oblige me to save my money, i would make you an offer for your Cougar. Even with all his problems, and the money i had to expend with mine on mods for fixing it, for me, it´s irreplaceble, i LOVE the damn thing and its feeling. None of the saitek hotas i had (X36, 45 and 52) and the gameport CH combo (fighterstick and throttle) i also had, IMO, comes even near the level of the Cougar.

If you check the first post in this thread, you'll see that it was six months ago!

Why does that not surprise me? The whole modding scene for the Cougar was very "friends only". If you had the connections, you were set for pricing, etc. And you could get your buddies to drum up enthusiasm for your designs. If not, you were expected to pay through the nose to get the parts, and your ideas were ignored.

And incidentally, it's amazing how many of the friends seem to overlook the shortcomings of the mods. They talk about how amazing the "feel" is, but gloss over everything else.

The U2 mod has no shortcomings and i think nobody could talk up Ian about the design. He did all the brainstorming and when you wanted the mod, you just bought it the way it was.

No, see when some of us bought it in the first place we had this silly notion that it would just work without having to double the price paid for some mod. So some of us went elsewhere.

QFT

And how do any of the past few posts have anything to do with the Thrustmaster Warthog? Back on topic people... Please.

Oh, and by the way, those of you in Spain on a Spanish forum (you know who you are) talking up the picture I posted earlier, it's NOT a Thrustmaster Warthog

Maybe if Thrustmaster was a little forthcoming it would give us something on topic to discuss

Ghost.. a CH Products 'Warthog' maybe? Hmm? That would be grand!

Fridge

Oops! This picture are show in Spanish forum - Brazilian speak Portuguese, not Spanish.

Sokol1

Not goin' there Fridge...

Just teasing big guy :-)

Posted over on the ubisoft IL2 forums:

What it has:

Unique Replica of the A-10C Aircraft Controller

Replica JOYSTICK:

- H.E.A.R.T™ HallEffect AccuRate Technology: 3D magnetic sensors (Hall Effect) on the stick:
enjoy surgical precision that stays razor-sharp over time, 16-bit resolution (65536 x 65536
values)
- USB connection with upgradeable firmware
- Super-stable, weighted base (over 3kg)
- New detachable handle, crafted entirely of metal: also compatible with HOTAS COUGAR
handle (and vice-versa) , new replica shape, detachable metal plate for desk- or cockpit-style
use , new, realistic pressure on buttons and trigger and 19 action buttons in total + one
8-way “point of view” hat.

Replica THROTTLES:

- H.E.A.R.T™ HallEffect AccuRate Technology: 3D magnetic sensors (Hall Effect) on the 2
throttles: enjoy surgical precision that stays razor-sharp over time, 14-bit resolution (16384
values) on each throttle
- USB connection with upgradeable firmware
- Dual throttles, featuring: metal hand rest, locking system, adjustable friction system with no
dead zones, realistic pressure on buttons and switches and 7 action buttons in total + 1
mouse hat.

Replica CONTROL PANEL:

- Weighted base (over 3kg) incorporated underneath the throttles
- Backlit functions
- 5 large, programmable LEDs
- Realistic pressure on buttons and switches
- 13 action buttons in total + 1 TRIM wheel.

That's ... sexy? :-)

Hmmmm interesting stick base there; guess I need to start looking at building that pit now to have a place to mount the thing.

Interesting, it says the stick`s base is detachable. More information on the throttle base would be nice, ie: the LEDs, backlighting, and the `Trim`wheel, I thought it was a throttle friction adjuster.

If we look at the equivalent panels in the DCS cockpit:



and compare it to the HOTAS shot above, we can see there is some more writing near the forward edge of the throttle base, I guess this is where the LEDs are located.


When I first saw the new Warthog stick I figured TM would make it compatible with the Cougar given that it also has a knurled knob, this is nice to have confirmed. The Warthog stick looks like a truer replica of the latest F-16 stick grip anyway, with regards to the shape of the stick head, and paddle switch. We shall see about my other prediction... finally seeing additional stick grips, as was the original plan with the Cougar. Although the throttle unit of the HOTAS Warthog isn`t the same as the F-15 or F-18 it`s a lot more realistic than using a single F-16 throttle like the Cougar. Anyone else figure an Eagle or Hornet stick grip would be a worthwhile addition to the Warthog product line...

I imagine that the "detachable" stick is just like it was on the Cougar. Don't know though and wish I was one of the lucky ones who was able to do a little testing for them...I have a few choice comments and words that I would like for them to hear from a long time TM user perspective.

No, no I mean the BASE of the stick, ie `detachable metal plate for desk or cockpit-style use` from the description above.

I had the chance to test T.16000M (HallEffect AccuRate Technology) which will be used at Warthog and I can tell that will be the new HOTAS Ferrari (Cougar is until the release!)

Interesting technology indeed.
I have been thinking about buying a TM T160000M and dissect it and put its innards in an old TM F22 Pro or a CH Products grip.

That would be sweet technology on the cheap.

That wouldn't be nowhere near as sexy as what this HOTAS promises to look like, but hey...

I wonder if you could gut it and place those inside a Cougar? If so then it would be TREMENDOUSLY cheaper for a mod than buying the gimbals from IJ and the sensors from Cubpilot.

Nice work there GRSwaty! Looks like an interesting movement with the HEART innards on that stick.

Cougar-compatible handles? Now I'm REALLY interested, provided that the HOTAS Warthog stick is indeed made of higher-quality metal throughout and won't lose its paintjob so easily. Cougar handles tend to develop a bit of shaft play that becomes extremely obvious if it's being used with a force-sensing mod.

What's with that stick base, though? It seems unusually small-just a round can part right below the stick, and then this big, flat square base all around, whereas you'd think that the stick base would be more boxy like the Cougar for a deflecting stick. I guess the new gimbals, Hall sensor system, and control circuitry are much more compact. (That, or the actual brains of the HOTAS Warthog were moved to the throttle this time.)

Also, there's still another major unknown-how does it handle rudder? I highly doubt it's a twisty-stick (not with that Cougar-style knob to keep the stick attached), but who knows if they're still going to keep the ancient DB-15 gameport for those of us who already have such pedals for the Cougar?

Good points all around and I wish I knew the answer or had another view of the throttle base to see what connections if any extra were there.

That's the spirit!

The electronics are said to be first grade, but mechanically it's very bad. Nothing that couldn't be fixed with some common hardware; i.e. the cheap plastic shaft.
Also you'd have to align the sensor correctly to get an accurate reading.

Don't hold your breath. I wouldn't trust Thrustmaster/Guillemot to make good on this.
I know for a fact that before the Cougar was released, other grips were said to be released, i.e. F15, F18 etc... it never materialized.

So, I wouldn't rest my hopes on this.

Also, the Warthog HOTAS isn't as boxy because the whole electronics part is quite compact - from what I have seen on the T160000M - as the switches are located in the grip.
It's good, on a side note I hope they won't skimp on the quality of the stick gimbal.

I remember that too. We were also apparently supposed to get an "RCS Pro" with toe brakes that plugged right into the Cougar, which clearly never happened.

Nevertheless, if I get the Warthog and it does have a better, compatible handle, I'd probably use it on my Cougar base for when a force-sensing stick better suits the sim in question.

That also means that the stock gimbals in the Warthog better be good, however...

I have an RCS with toe brakes....nevermind the fact that I had to mod it on my own to make it happen but I still have it...hehehe

I fear that the Warthog wont feature a digital gameport for rudder pedals. My F-16 Cougar pedals don't work with a gameport/USB adapter because these adapters are made for analog devices.
I will have to keep the Cougar plugged in (without the throttle), just to get the pedals working.
Most games these days recognize multiple USB devices, so that should be no problem.

If It's doesn't,I will keep my Cougar too!

You have Simped?

Yes, the F-16 Simpeds for the Cougar. They are digital ones, so no adapter will work. Mr. Hoffman from SIMPED said in a telefone call, that he also has to wait for the new HOTAS and see how he can make things compatible. Thrustmaster doesn't send them pre-production versions for evaluation. He will develop an digital USB adapter once the HOTAS has been released and he gets his hands on one of them. But that will only work, if the Warthog directly supports pedals. I hope he will also develop an adapter for the case when we have to use the SIMPEDs as stand alone devices.

Thank you for the info!

I hope release date is close!

The Cougar uses a digital gameport for the pedals? I thought it was just analog with good hardware to handle and filter it all, otherwise how would the RCS and Elite pedals work, among others? (Or does it have to do with the toe brakes?)

In any case, if the rudder pedals can't plug directly into the Warthog and integrate under its own DirectInput ID, then I see no point in keeping my RCS pedals to use with it should I part with my Cougar.

The cougar's pedalport is neither 'digital' nor a gameport.
It is compatible with older single axis gameport rudders.
The rudder axis is read as a variable resistor (as used by the gameport).
The toebrakes read voltage and their pots must be wired as a voltage divider.
(http://www.cougar.flyfoxy.com/images/mods/rudder_large.jpg)

The standard gameport/USB adapters are for analog devices and that's why they don't work with the SIMPED pedals. That's what he told me. So the gameport in the Cougar is somewhat different, otherwise the peadls wont work. No idea what the Cougar exactly does inside but Mr. Hofman will have to build his own adapter, otherwise the Cougars stick base will have to be our adapter.


Btw, the toe brakes don't use pots. They use force sonsors for each brake.

I will say that base is very ingenious. Good out-of-the-box thinking, especially if that plate comes off. That will certainly make a nice compact mount for people's pit projects.

You really think IJ's cranked out somewhere north of 35,000 NXTs?

At least.

Maybe 2 grand.

Not that much of course But for most of the crowd, which usually hangs out in these online forums. Most people never go online and download any updates, so they don't even know about hardware mods for the Cougar.

For their current A10C HOTAS, maybe more

I bet I could find a real joystick with a real airframe attached for that much.

Post from ED Forums Warthog thread:

I am one of the team of organisers for a large flight sim convention here in the United Kingdom - http://www.fscweston.co.uk

I have been talking to Gillimot (who represent Thrustmaster) and they wanted to preview the controls at our event on may 15th. However due to the date of release being pushed back it looks like this wont be happening.

Thrustmaster still states an early 2010 release. Haven't heard anything about a pushed back release date.

Well, I think everybody here would rather they get it right when they do release.

I would sure hope so, given that they're taking their sweet time and all even though Logitech and even Saitek have had their new offerings out for at least a few months.

My guess is that they've sizing up the competition (G940 and X-65F), studying their faults as well as their own mistakes with the Cougar, and making sure they don't repeat them since they already have a badly tarnished record with the Cougar.

(Besides, I probably couldn't afford it if it released right now anyway...not without selling my Cougar, which I don't want to do just yet.)

In the end, we (the public crowd) is going to beta test this puppy in a large scale study.
TM just can't "simulate" the casual simmer and the daily stress he puts onto the HOTAS.
Best way is two wait for the second charge of the HOTAS with some improvements to the intial version.

Was there/have there been any changes during the Cougar's lifetime? You could be waiting a while... I'll hopefully pick one up when they are released to compliment my Cougar.

They improved a little the quality of some of the pots, specially the ant knob pot and its detent problem. Still, that only delayed the pots problem, but did not fixed it. And also, as far as i know, there was some changes to the throttle internal board.

Yes there were changes to the board ( http://www.cubpilotshangar.net/page49.html )

There were problem with speed brake too,but the support from TM is good.
Epecially the support from Cougar community is outstanding!

The pots on the Throttle are actually quite good. They don't spike and the detends of the switches are still top notch. Never had to change anything on the throttle and i have been using my Cougar for almost 9 years now.

My Cougar throttle luck hasn't been the same.

The main throttle pot crapped out at some point, and the Y-axis pot on the mini-stick also needs replacement. Not totally unusable, but the response is anything but linear-kind of jumpy in spots.

I can't afford a Hall sensor kit for the throttle yet (US$72 + shipping), so I'm just trying to live with it in the meantime-but that jumpiness sure isn't making landings in Falcon 4.0 easy, where I NEED precise control over the throttle.

Nameless, grab a replacement microstick and throttle pot from Red Dog if he still has them.

Cheers

Nutty

http://www.thrustmaster.com/product.aspx?ProductID=205

WTF




€399...That comes to around 505.340 USD based on todays exchange rate listed on XE.com.

That plants it firmly in the no fly zone for me! Sorry guys but I can not justify that kind of money on something that doesn't come with rudder pedals or any other information on how/if existing rudder pedals on the market can be hooked up to it at this time.

400 euro?

Holy crap!

Yeah for that kind of money I can have IJ send me the gimbals and still have enough left over for the Hall Sensors from Cubpilot that are pre-wired for putting into my Cougar. Well maybe not but it would be close and the Cougar has more than payed for itself over the last several years.

What were you guys expecting? €299? I would have serious questions about the quality of the controllers, if they were priced under 300.

X-65F is selling for £304.95 -> €356.99 in Amazon UK. It had a SRP of £349.99.

I guess we'll have to wait and see if the quality justifies the price. The Cougar certainly wouldn't have been worth it but I'm guessing they've learned some good lessons.

It is difficult to justify that much money but hey, a few beers and a moment of weakness may land in it my pit someday! (translated: if I ever win the friggin lottery)

Keep in mind, prices don't always translate based on conversion factors. Manufacturers frequently release things in the US at different prices than their Euro list price.

The Cougar, for example, sells here for about the same USD (~ $203.52) as it does GBP (~ £202.59).

Doomer that line of reasoning is seriously flawed. I know manufacturing costs and specifically castings and molds and they don't cost that much to implement when you are talking about runs of a product in the thousands for quantity...No matter where you get it done in the world. The HEART technology is what is already seen in the T.16000 and that stick is available for under $50USD and I am sure that TM is going to be using the same sensors and other items which have priced out at less than $10USD total for the items needed.

I understand profit since I am in business to make money as well...but rape is another subject in the current economy.

For the record if it is $399USD then I may consider it but it would be a while since that money has to be saved up.

It's even cheaper then i have expected it would be. I though roughly around 500 bucks or more.
But don't rush it guys! Wait and see how this thing performs and if the paint starts to peel.

The paint never peeled on mine and I understand what you are saying there Banks since that was a point of "contention" that some had in the beginning...perhaps it was more shoddy Chinese workmanship.

Reschke, thats a fair price for a replica product these days. I'll wait on its release before I make any assumptions of the product but so far this looks like a top notch pc. of hardware!

I am going to buy it..no questions there but this time, i will wait a few months and watch the boards and read all the reviews. I just want to make sure that i don't have to spend another 500 bucks hard cash for a complete new overhaul made in downunder.
I also hope that the programming part doesn't require you to start from scratch again but is basicly like the good old Foxy.

How can I get in contact with him, especially since Frugal's has been down for a long while? Does he also have an account here?

Also, it looks like the Warthog FINALLY has a product page, though I just knew the price was going to be something I had no chance of affording without parting with the Cougar and RCS, even if they're doing a sign swap that puts it at US$400.

It also looks like that come the 19th, the cockteasing will finally stop. Hopefully. Maybe they'll tell us something about how and what rudder pedals will work with it, as well as its programming applications and capabilities?

Not based on the specs out there for the 16000M and the the info that's supposedly been leaked.

There's not a lot you buy (especially in any sort of consumer goods industry) where the price you pay isn't 4 to 8 times the actual production line unit cost (plus a percentage of R&D). Most of the time each step in the distribution chain marks up the price 50-100% depending on various factors...and usually leaning towards 100.

That's how companies come up with "suggested retail prices" - they know what they're gonna sell it for and generally know how much it gets marked up at each step along the way.

Actually...I'm oversimplifying and exaggerating a touch there...The manufacturers price to broker/distributor is probably right around 35-40% of the MSRP, give or take.

Check here:

http://www.cougar.flyfoxy.com/sales.php#pot

They would be stupid to not use the same sensors that they already have availability on since this one is using the same "technology" as a current model. BUT I don't work for a company that believes China is the "be all/end all" to sourcing products...thank goodness!

As for the markups and such I do that every day with the business I am in selling steel pipes and fittings. We aren't the factory but we are only one step away from the steel pipe mill and our markup is between 10-30% in that level.

At any rate there is nothing new right now and when we know it will not make one doggone bit of difference to TM what we think of the pricing.

It may be using the same technology as a current model, but aside from the sensor and perhaps the magnet that reads the sensor, there's probably not 1 physical part in common with the 16000.

I don't see a problem with the pricing, myself. It's no more expensive than the Cougar was at release, when adjusted for inflation....

Heck, I bought my Cougar used 5-6 years ago for a price higher than they're now selling for new.

No matter how many different gimbal systems and hall sensors you drop into a Cougar, no one has figured out how to create a second throttle where this isn't one to begin with.

Before everyone has an aneurysm over the price, let's wait and see what the specs are (hopefully revealed to at least moderate satisfaction on the 19th). The important thing to determine is if this HOTAS is worth its price, not if one individual decides to spend or not spend that kind of money.

Well simulations are an expensive hobby and not everyone can afford every controller out there, myself included. Thats why there are cheap controllers and expensive ones, I'll wait and see but I hope for this to be a top notch product thats well worth the indicated price.

You know what though something that just rang home with me on this gear...WHAT IF DCS and TM are working together and when you purchase the setup for XXX amount of money you get the DCS A-10 game as well?

Just a shot in the dark and in that case I would certainly do what I could to make it happen if I was going to get a $50USD-$60USD game along side of a set of controllers as well.

That would be interesting, I remember the days of bundled controllers and simulations. Although the simulation didn't always equal the quality of the controller (thats not what I'm getting at LOL). A high end controller with a high end sim..... that would be awesome! Whats a little scary about you idea is that the A-10 controller is made exclusively for DCSA10. I understand it is an A10 controller I'd just hate for certain functions to only interface with DCSA10. This is in regard to Saitek Pro Flight range products that ONLY work with FSX.

Want all those shiny buttons to work in any sim not just one...

Yep that would suck monkey balls there HHF. Only having certain functions enabled based on the hardware you were playing with...geez I need to stop since it may just make it into some asshats marketing strategy either at TM or DCS.

I seriously would find it hard to believe that the controller would be locked down to only DCS-A10...



That comment is not entirely true, maybe the Pro Flight Instrument panels but I know the X-52 Pro works outside of FSX.

Well it was loosely worded but I was referring to said products that ONLY work with FSX. The X-52 and other products that do work obviously wouldn't apply to that statement......

And yeah I doubt that the Warthog HOTAS would be too, just pondering that it would suck. Certain buttons on the throttle (toggles in particular) look like the on/off type not the momentary (on)/off type. That said, especially with the news that it will use newer programing software, gives me the impression if those buttons do work like that, you can program them to something along the lines of "Press Once" rather than "Repeated Presses" when you flip it. In all honesty I guess I'm just rambling about possible possibilities while we all wait for more detailed info.

Why is everybody getting their knickers in a twist about the price? For a pro spec HOTAS the prices are in the same ballpark as the competition.

And as far as pedals are concerned, hasn’t everybody got some old pedals kicking about?
I’m not saying it’s cheap, but take a look…

The new (with throttle, G940 inc pedals)

TM HOG – 299 euros = £255
G940 - £259
Saitek x-64f -£349

The old

CH fighter stick + pro throttle = £212
TM Cougar + throttle- £202

I "got my knickers in a twist" about the G940 and X-65F prices too, even if I probably paid as much if not more for my current Cougar w/FCC + RCS w/HS setup.

My main concern is that if I'm going to get one of these new setups, in all likeliness, I'll have to sell what I've got first-and I'm not so sure that I want to do that, not without a bit of prior hands-on time.

As for pedals, I may already have a nice set, but if they can't be slaved directly to the Warthog under its own DirectInput ID, then that causes complications for titles that only see the first DirectInput ID, of which I have a few.

The knickers that everyone is getting in a twist probably stems from the 399 euro price and not the 299 that you have listed. A difference of nearly £100!!

Twice the price of a Cougar?.....that is renowned to be the best part of very unreliable. I'm questioning it myself.

Wrong on your price but 2 others have said it before. Also LONG before the G940 was out and available and before the X-65F was out we knew what we would be getting in that price range.

Still though we may not actually see the product out for availability on the 19th but it would have been nice to have some idea about what type of pedals we would be able to use or IF we would be able to use pedals with this.

I certainly don't want a twisty stick and I honestly wouldn't pay anywhere near $500USD for a twisty stick...unless it gave me a reach around or a happy finish every time I touched it...at that point it would be a lot cheaper than a wife...unless you have kids like I do.

Oops. Sorry guys. Don't know how i messed that one up on the price converter site.

399 euros comes in at £343. That changes the landscape a fair bit and puts it square up against the Saitek offering.

(assuming they dont "do an apple/adobe" and shaft us on the exchange rate)

Their margin for manufacturing and design errors just got smaller

LOL - but we all know how the exchange rate works....and it's usually 1:1 for us brits, whether that be Euros or US Dollars.

Either way, we always get shafted. I've no doubt it will be cheaper to fly to the United States, buy the Warthog and bring it back as hand baggage.

I have old pedals, the TM RCS, but they are very old, not very good to begin with and want new ones with the latest tech so they are accurate, easy to use and have toe brakes which mine do not. So, I'm hoping that for the price of about $500 USD, they will come with pedals that match the same tech & quality of the stick & throttle!!! It's all about immersion not integration management in that I just want to spend a little time making it work as in customizing/personalizing it using its sw and not being an integrator figuring how to make old or even new 3rd party pedals work with all the games old and new.

SO, pedals at that price bundled are very important to me and I would assume important for many folks waiting for TM's Warthog!

I do not believe you will see pedals as part of the package.

I agree with Corsair that I do not believe pedals will be part of the package...it would be nice but don't count on it.

On the other hand if you have some money left after buying the Warthog and the RCS pedals would be able to work with them then consider the Hall Sensor upgrade kit for the RCS pedals that is offered by a guy known as Cubpilot. For about $90USD you can get the hall sensors pre-wired and a kit to upgrade/update the RCS. If you want toe brakes it is an easy addition from that point.

Add to that the excellent mod by Grizzly to spruce up your RCS and you're in business.

Can I get some more details on just what kind of mod that is? Toe brakes? Replacement centering mechanism that gives a much smoother, gradual force near center?

If it requires the CubPilot Hall sensor kit for wiring toe brakes, no worries-I already have one installed.

(Of course, this won't mean much to me if I can't use my RCS pedals with the Warthog-I'd just sell 'em bundled with the Cougar.)

Yes pretty much what you mentioned.

Here is Grizzly's site;

http://home.comcast.net/~timothyboldt/index.htm

If you haven't seen his Comanche pit, you have been missing out on something.

Under files you will find the anti-torque pedals in PDF format (along with a few other nice mods.)

And yes, his mod is HALL sensor friendly.
If I had HALL sensor mounted on my RCS, I certainly would not let go it.

The only thing Grizzly's mod doesn't have are toe brakes.
I don't believe I have a how-to file on how to add toe brakes, but I am sure I have a link or two with some pictures of RCS rudders featuring toe brakes. Now where is that link??? ....

Oh, I remember the Comanche pit, all right. Saw the pics in a thread here. Awesome stuff.

It's more thorough than expected and will certainly increase the footprint of the RCS pedals themselves, but it does give me ideas.

I'm not seeing any toe brakes, but helicopters don't have them. In any case, with one look at the pedals themselves, I have some ideas of as to how I would add them; the way the pedals attach to the base helps a lot.

Definitely no pedals. But i am still curious as to how the Warthog is going to support pedals...directly like the Cougar? Most likely we have to use pedals as stand alone devices, i.e. we will have to keep the Cougar stick plugged in, in order to get the Cougar pedals to work (atleast for the people who are using these kind of pedals). I will need a USB card then, as with the Warthog running, i have no spare port left.

Or a USB Hub (powered) I have to use two but its really useful that way!

Well since the MSRP that is listed is in Euro's will we have an annoucement European time tomorrow or sometime US business hours?

Just shooting in the dark now

Hope to hear something too, hope it makes me breakfast......

Well, it's May 19th at 1000hrs EDT and no update yet.

Release has been pushed back "2 weeks"

The data page is still the same...but the TM mainpage flash is updated.

Still the same as of 5:32pm Central Time US...I appreciate the updated information but there is NOTHING detailing software or possible rudder connectivity...kinda disappointing but honestly it was also expected.

I do find it interesting that the Cougar HOTAS on Amazon.com is now listed for a sales price of $195 now. Although they do not have anything up regarding the Warthog at all.

http://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-Hotas...8618&sr=8-2

Well so far I'm impressed with what I've seen, really like to read a firsthand impression though. Guess we have to wait and see on breakfast making capabilities................

It's May 19, 2010, 7:29pm EST.

No updates on the page like they promised?

EDIT: Okay, they didn't update this page, but there's a new Flash teaser.

Also, I somehow managed to skip the earlier post that said that. Sorry, but it really goes to show that Guillemot/Thrustmaster PR could handle this better.

Yeah that statement really held a lot of water didn't it?

I am not complaining about what they did update with the flash portion of their site but that is stuff that they could have told us WEEKS ago. I am sure from my limited time working with Flash graphics that it doesn't take all that long to update a website with stuff like that.

Just did a quick search on their site for press releases...negative but the thing is listed as a HOTAS Warthog.

Also did a search on where to buy...there are no places listed as resellers for that item.

Yep. It will be nice when those who have flown them are able to speak on the matter.

I'll go out on a limb and say breakfast making will not be in the feature set.

Just noticed something in the new flash graphic..."Direct Input"...isn't that a M$ term dealing with how the joysticks are recognized within windows? If so that could mean there is NO software like the Cougar to setup macros, etc... Didn't they go the same route with the T.16000 as well?

Hell I don't know I am tired...drove too much in the last 48 hours.

Not too concerned there, Reschke....assuming this still stands:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=794537&postcount=168

Remember - the Cougar works in "windows mode" too - it's selectable between that and user mode (foxy programming).

Well they did update the actual product page and removed the line about 5/19/2010 that I quoted above. Still not anything about retailers or an ETA on availability. They did remove the Spring 2010 from all the information as well.

Quite a let down.

Guess the release didn't work as planned as has been delayed.

A little information to that effect would have been nice. I mean it isn't like they are having to compete with CH for the race to have the first A-10 based HOTAS out on the consumer market or anything.

CH is not in this race:

http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?7204-CH-products-2010

Sokol1

I know that they aren't in the race for an A-10 setup to the consumers. That to me probably tells a lot about why we aren't getting information that we wanted to see or hear.

Does this hint at a all in one, combined programming suite for TM controllers? Wonder if it will go so far as to have the ability to combine controllers into a single device like the CH control manager software to allow older titles that only look for one device to benefit...?

So what Nutty meant is, that we are going to see a release right after the E3 at best, if not later?
That really sucks. That would mean a release around late summer. So far about Spring 2010.

I would rather the date be pushed back than have a HOTAS with issues. Let them get it right and when they are ready they'll release it.

I have to agree with Panther. If TM releases the stick too early, there will be fallout. People will complain and we will have another TM Cougar scenario. If they wait until it's done, then the people will be happy (except for the usual characters of course). If the price point that is being advertised is accurate, then I believe the people will want a product that is thoroughly done.

just my two cents.

--T

Right, but a pushed back release date doesn't mean, that they are trying to fix something during that time. Maybe they are releasing the puppy after the E3 due to marketing decisions or whatever and at the same time, they are already producing the first batch in China and sendng it all over the world waiting for the "go" by TM.

I can't see them holding up a few months (that essentially means a quarter) just for marketing. I would say they are trying to get the machines and quality done right. After all, wouldn't it be better at E3 to say, yeah just order it from Amazon while everybody has the bug? By waiting until after they can't say that and that is why I believe that the delay is involuntary.

We will never know for sure. Although i don't mind them holding back the release. Currently i am going to use my saved money for a new TV and then i am willing to spend money on the Warthog.
Waiting a few months after it has been released wont hurt but might reveal problems with the hardware.

On what are you basing the belief that Hotas Warthog has been delayed? The comment made by Nutty was made last year, and it didn't mention E3.

Sure, the PR department of TM could be more open and give us a proper product page. It might be a bad omen that they removed the "spring 2010" from the animation, but then again, that date was added just a month ago.

So keep your thumbs up! (Or if in the case that you are currently flying; keep the other thumb on the pickle and the other on the Dogfight-switch

Hmm, I wonder if TM has addressed the "twixt the knees" stick setup as it is in the A10.... that is prolly a pit builder's chore, I guess. I can envision a "pedestal" construct between the knees where one would mount/secure the stick..I think I will start to design one for my pit.

What I've seen sofar is that the stick's base is a compact box on a wider baseplate.
I think I saw somewhere that the plate is to be detachable but even if it isn't it looks like something you can get rid of easily.

Everything so far screams "I'm a bad @ss HOTAS", I especially love the fact its simpit friendly. Really hope it lives up to the hype, I really want to replace the X52!

The design of the stick looks like you could hold it between your legs, with the thin base plate supporting beneath the backs of your legs - or detach the base plate and mount the stick unit to a pit.

Check the Thrustmaster main page. Warthog flash ad is now gone.

Looks like they are releasing everything else except Warthog. From high-end Ferrari branded racing wheels to Toy Story 3 inspired Wii accessories...we on the other hand are out of luck.

Doomer, just because they have another new product out to stick on the flash page means nothing for the WartHog. Take a look in their products list and it's still there.

No way they'd cancel a project with that much hype involved! There probably gearing up to drop something on us (hopefully, I don't know). E3 is coming but its more for consoles than PC gear and games.....

Either that, or the term vaporware will have to be rephrased as 'pulling a Warthog'.

/me snickers

g.

I plan on pulling [on] a Warthog!

Aahhhhh!!! Savor it people!......The birth of a new sexual inuendo.

"I'm gonna go pull on my Warthog!"

I love it! Now, let's use it in context....

"I think that most of us feel that we have been pulling on our Warthogs long enough, waiting for this damn stick to come out!"

Their marketing department really blew this one. I hope the actual product is designed in a better way than this awful marketing campaign.

Here's the timeline to refresh our memories:

-first flash ad appears on Thrustmaster's site back in October 2009(that's EIGHT MONTHS ago)
-in January they update the ad a little
-in February they add "available in Spring 2010" to the end
-in May they say 19.05.2010 is the day when we get new information
-in 19.05.2010 they reveal the price and how many buttons and switches it has. Spring 2010 statement is removed.
-Shortly after this the flash ad is removed from the Thrustmaster front page.
-Over two weeks later we are sitting here, without any knowledge about availability, proper pictures, functions etc.

Even I wanted the A10 controls. but my x65 is doing so well, many more delays on the warthog and i will just give up...They need to come clean with release date or problems!!! one or the other, both would be best!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think it is canceled either but E3 has changed so much over the years. It used to be only about PC stuff and now the twitchy's are involved...damn shame if you ask me.

There's the Penny Arcade Expo and the GamesCom in Germany as alternatives and more PC games oriented AFAIK.

(Thx for the AcesHigh Cougar profiles, Reschke. Uploading them soon.)

Penny Arcade is for indie developers

Aren't all PC developers these days?

I think that people should just relax and keep flying while waiting. HW will come when it is ready.


I'm also one of the fanboys who eagerly wait for the HW and check this thread and the TM homepage/product page daily. Sure, TM's press office might have handled this better, but then again aren't we all used to this? What I want to say is please guys, relax and don't be dicks about it It is a well known fact that we simmers are a whiny bunch who demand a lot and will not settle for anything but the best But also it is know that our behaviour causes many, MANY people and companies to make products for some easier market; like arcade games for consoles.

When some company makes a sim or flying controller that is 99,9% perfect we whill STILL whine about it, especially if it is delayed for a few weeks. When the same company makes a half-assed racing game they will have 100x the sales and only a seldom whines. No-one will whine about some niche aspect like "your racing game sucks because the transmission stick is red even though it should be blue"

So, please don't be pessimistic or whine. Whining simmers are the greatest threat to our hobby.

Sorry about my whine
EDIT: oopis, I failed at the reply. This was not directed at anyone particular

That's all well and good Galwran but then what are all these gadzillion Forums for

LOL quit your whining Galwran! If you can't beat them join them, now back to whining or I'll have to pull a Warthog on you guys..............

Well, you all can still pull on your Cougars while waiting for the Warthog, right?

Well with E3 starting tomorrow I would expect for them to release some information but unless they (Thrustmaster/Guillemot) are piggy-backed with another vendor they still aren't on the exhibitors list of companies showing anything at the show. We shall see tomorrow though.

Our only evidence about something happening during E3 is in this thread which has a post by Nutty:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zsjIsuf-LfUJ:simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3016185/Re_Where_s_the_HOTAS_Warthog.html+warthog+e3+eh&cd=1&hl=fi&ct=clnk&gl=fi

Funny that the thread has disappeared. Maybe Nutty said too much and is MIA

Yeah I find it funny when threads disappear like that and aren't spoken about again. I thought I was drunk and dreamed it up when I posted in that one...might have been...but still not a real reason to banish the thread.

Nutty? Never heard of him! Doesn't exist!

To avoid "Misinformation" CLICK HERE

Any news from E3 yet re Warthog?

Any info is akin to the Quest for the Holy Grail atm.........

The second any info drops everyone is going to be on that all over especially if it comes from E3. LOL it will be like "new info", "first post" and all that!

Did you mean 'For no information, CLICK HERE?

But yeah, for now I suppose.

Wonder what means?

Broke out the bottle of Bombay Sapphire today...poured a nice tall glass with about 7 cubes of ice...added a touch of tonic water just to make sure I don't dehydrate...watched the Nintendo and Sony programs on TV and tested the waters of the E3 sites just to see if anyone mentioned ANYTHING about new game controllers that WEREN'T part of the M$, Wii and Sony lineup....

As the old line from Topgun goes...."Thats a negative Ghostrider!"

Apparently, this product is not a priority to TM.

Nope!

To not even mention it on E3????

Looks like people are in for a loooong wait!

[EDIT:] At the E3 in 2001

Thrustmaster unveils the Cougar

Fire in the hole.

Stand by for SimHQ's hands-on Previews of the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog and DCS: A-10C Warthog.

The answer to the "when?" question for the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog: September 2010.

No doubt.

It was a pleasure meeting you & the other SHQ folks!

Teej

There's been more panic in this thread than the whole of the SoW forum!

Hope it works as good as it looks, because it looks fantastic!

Good news!
or will it be like in the Hitchhikers guide; we know the answer (ie, september 2010) but what is that "when" question? I fear it is "when will we get some proper information on the Hog?" =D

Edit: whoops, on the main pange: SimHQ's hands-on previews of the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog and DCS: A-10C Warthog will be published in a few hours.!!!

Thrustmaster confirmed to me that the HOTAS Warthog will be available in September 2010. They also said there will be a pre-order option and would announce it later on.

My "when?" was in reference to everyone asking when it would be available for purchase.

This thing is cool, folks. Words coming soon.

The TM HOTAS Warthog is a stick that will blow away any competitor out there. The detail on this controller is simply amazing.

Guys you'll want one for yourself and you won't be let down.

Hmmmmm

Sounds like a dual/packaged release to me if DCS A-10 is that close to going out the door.

I was hoping for a summer release on the Warthog but September will just have to do.

What is that yellow/orange thing on the top portion of the throttle area? I don't remember that in any of the other photos we have seen but it is intriguing...maybe a nose wheel control or a trim function of the rudder or aileron.

I guess we will have to wait and see.

September gives me time to save some money and prepare - though with my attempt at the Logitech combo, I am more than a little apprehensive about buying a product again so soon. My trusty CH Products combo is back on my desk with everything but the Logitech pedals collecting dust.

September? What a let down. Did you inquire the reason for the delay?

Of course, in September they could say coming for Christmas 2010.

Yesterday, with no indication of SoW or TM info available at E3 I was prepared to post a rant about the importance of 'Michael Jackson's Dance Studio' and it's effect on world peace and the global economy... I'll shut up now.

Sept. suits me fine, it's my Bday month. I had kind of figured this product was going to be timed with the new DCS sim anyway. Make mine a double.

Still standing. Although my feet are getting a li'l tired...

OK, after a few hours of sleep following a long day, some answers that can be released now...though to be clear I am not associated with SimHQ - this post represents my own opinions/experiences and reflects discussions within my team, The Virtual Thunderbirds.

It is absolutely not "limited" in any way to only work with DCS A-10 as some had feared. At the release event, it was demonstrated with DCS A-10C courtesy of Wags, with FSX, and with Flaming Cliffs 2, the latter in some formation flying by The Virtual Thunderbirds.

No, there's no rudder port built in. The units (stick & throttle) each have their own brains and each plugs into a separate USB port. If you've got a setup that plugs rudders into the Cougar, you should be able to get a USB gameport adapter for $5-20 at various places that will let you keep using your pedals. I got something like that 10 years ago from Radio Shack. A quick check showed they're still readily available (but I haven't looked to see if RS still has 'em).

Programming software is still a work in progress. Unless there's something they haven't told those of us testing the units yet, you will not be downloading profiles to the stick like a Cougar - the interface happens in Windows. This does NOT mean that you are limited to DX buttons. Even the early software I'm using allows some quite powerful capabilities, and they're not done yet.

Some have asked if there's an afterburner detent or not, since the A-10 doesn't have burners. Others have said they don't want a stick without detents. Either way, you won't be disappointed. Out of the box the throttles have a very long, smooth, silent travel with no detent. However, in about 60 seconds you can pull off a small cover and turn a little plastic piece around, and then you'll have a detent. It's not a click-clack detent like the Cougar's - you'll lift the throttles up slightly (~ 1/8 inch or so) and advance them into afterburner.

I've been flying a couple of the pre-production units over the past month, and pre-production software for the past week or so. Given the pre-prod nature, there's a lot of things I'm not in a position to say with certainty.

Those of us in the Virtual Thunderbirds who have been testing these units have found their precision and handling to be excellent out of the box. Most of us have been flying Cougars with the non-moving FSSB / FCC mods. After a few hours of adjusting to a stick that moves again, the Hog is well suited to the precise movements we require. My modified Cougar has been on a shelf in my closet since the day I received a beta unit. There were a few issues with that rev 1 unit that were addressed in the next revision. Although a final opinion can only be rendered once the whole team has tried them, we expect the HOTAS Warthog will receive our full endorsement and recommendation. This is not biased by our sponsorship relationship with Thrustmaster - we are that impressed by the Warthog. If it didn't meet our high standards, we wouldn't have flown a live formation demo. As nice as the ACES-II and A-10 pit from SC Simulations were, the ergonomics were different from what any of us (even Gunner with his own pit) have flown, and we had very little time to adjust before flying live.

Thank you for your description, Teey!

I am wondering about one thing:



I have Simped F-16/C connected to Thrustmaster Cougar (non USB variant). Can they be connected to gameport adapter? I heard that they are made exclusively for the Cougar connection and that they don't work like regular gameport pedals. But there's very little info on that on web.

I'm not sure on that, as I don't have simpeds to try. I'll have to refresh my memory on the Cougar port wiring (I know it's a bit different).

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that what I think would happen is you wouldn't get toe brakes with a game port adapter, but I think the rudder would still work.

I only have about a 50% confidence in that simply because my memory of said wiring is so hazy right now.

I don't believe there is anything yellow/orange at the top of the throttle base... take a look at this picture for confirmation:


If you are referring perhaps to the object visible in this picture,

the yellow object is a band of rubber around the base of a hand-held microphone, which has nothing to do with the HOTAS Warthog.

Other than that, there are two red-orange switches on the throttle itself (one on the inboard side and one on the back of the left throttle), and no other color that I am aware of other than the grey trim axis and green backlighting. Does this help?

Was referring to the bottom picture and from when I saw the picture this morning it appeared to be attached to the rotary dial up on the top portion of the throttle. Thanks for the explanation.

It's actually a new cross-over project from TM intended to attract business from both simmers and karaoke fans, the 'Karaoke Warthog'.

Presently being beta tested by Justin Bieber.







j/k

Thank you Teej. I'll post my questions about Simped connection elsewhere, since it's off topic.

On-topic couple of questions:

Can anyone describe the feeling of joystick and throttle movement? Is the joystick movement smooth all around, without clear X, Y "detents"? How strong is the spring compared to Cougar? Any "stiction" on the throttles? Could we get a photo of the front part of throttle? Is there a lever that connects the throttles together? How are the hats compared to Cougar?

Etc, etc...



Thank you for your report, again!!! I think there's not even one mention of Thrustmaster Warthog at E3 outside SimHQ (unless it references your review)! And this is supposed to be gaming industry?

Beat me to it Bwaze, I've read the preview but it's a little light on details about actual physical feel. The Cougar was a bit of a disappointment due to the 'bumps' felt when passing through neutral position in both X and Y axes. It was also difficult to move the Cougar throttle with precision when making very small adjustments due to the 'sticktion' effect. How does the Warthog compare?

And yes, is it possible to interconnect the two throttles, locking them together for single engine flying?

Another Warthog sighting on E3:

Gaming Nexus - some new photos, description from the layman point of view.

The SIMPED Cougar pedals wont work with gameport/USB adapters! I have already talked with Mr. Hofmann from SIMPED about that problem. These adapters support analog devices only! You will have to keep the Cougar stick plugged into the computer, in order to keep the pedals working.
I don't like the fact, that we need two USB ports for the Warthog. I am going to buy a powered USB hub, otherwise the whole thing wont work. What takes one port now, requires "THREE" ports with the Warthog. :/

Ok, according to the Gaming Nexus article above, apparently you CAN lock the two throttles together?

Amazing to finally get some info on this stick thanks for informing us SIMHQ and man so far I'm impressed, I think there's a great chance this HOTAS will live up to and beyond the hype. Damn I need to start saving my money!

Don't rush it..we wont probably see it before autumn. Enough time to save some hard cash.

Yes you can lock the throttles together or leave them as two separate throttles. I currently don't have a picture of the locking mechanism, but it's a small sliding gate that is magnetic and will hold the throttles together.

Good news! ...and Happy Birthday!

What a birthday present to be at E3! Happy Birthday!

Sorry, I fail to understand. Why would you keep the Cougar if you were to buy the Warthog to begin with? Dual simpits/rigs? You probably wouldn't get enough money for the mods in it?

I don't think that TM expects you to keep your Cougar, but at the same time they fail to come up with a decent set of rudder pedals.

That is a disappointment.

Other than that it appears to be a nice piece of equipment (even though I made a fool of myself with this post!)

September 2010, though? I guess it's spring somewhere!

Thanks for the info SimHQ and Teej!

Excellent news!

Hi guys, Joe here logged in through Chipwich's account on the floor at E3.

In the scenario above, you would have to keep the Cougar because it would provide you a way to connect your existing gameport rudders to your system via USB. Then you would have a USB connection which Thrustmaster's T.A.R.G.E.T software can see, and therefore you can integrate them with the rest of your HOTAS programming.

You don't need to keep the Cougar to use pedals with the Warthog, but you need to keep the Cougar to use Cougar pedals and integrate into Warthog programming.

Does this help to clarify?




As for comments on the feel of the stick, it is superb. There is no clunkiness or feel of detents as you pass across the zero-points of the X and Y axes (with a ball joint gimbal you wouldn't expect any). There is a slight clunky feeling as the stick returns to center. You can get some sense of the smooth stick action if you look at the video of "Ray" Charles holding formation for a fingertip landing that's in the preview.

Waiting on the info that is in the next three pages of this thread.
My lawnmower died and had to get a new one. I think God killed it to keep me from buying the Saitek. I aint gonna argue with God, so I'll wait for the Warthog. Anxiously awaiting the updated SimHQ review.

I'll look for (or start) another thread to discuss the simpeds further.

As for what's in the base of the stick...I've been told I'm free to discuss anything that was at the presentation, and they had some of the guts on display, so I'll confirm that it is a ball joint. I don't recall seeing a spring there, so I'm not going to comment on specifics. I can say that if the one that's in the units I've worked with goes to production, I'm not worried about it breaking over many, many years.

Spring tension is very comfortable and consistent. It is not "floppy loose" but not too stiff, either. You won't be wearing out your arm flying this stick.

The hat switches and trigger on the stick feel very similar to the Cougar. Trigger tension seems up a bit. They've published the numbers but I don't have the Cougar's to compare to. The S1, S2 and S3 switches are much stiffer than the cougar's, and more realistic as a result. Harder to accidentally hit the wrong switch.

The 2 & 3 way switches on the throttle base are extremely solid and "positive" in their lock. The "dogfight" switch (Boat Switch in the new lingo) is a rocker rather than a slider, so it won't have any misalignment issues. The speedbrake switch is still a slider but I can't see this one binding either.

The 3-way switch on the outside of the left throttle is a bit looser than the switches on the base, which allows easier movement with the pinky. The switches on the base would be a bit difficult for many to move with their pinky without a much larger grip change. In the profile I've written for our VTB use, I used that switch for landing gear.

Speedbrake switch works like the Cougar's - momentary when pulled back, locking forward.

The lever that's where the "friction lock" is on the real jet (to the right of the throttles, on the base) is a "slider" axis. There is a friction lock wheel on the forward end of the throttles. I personally prefer to fly with this wheel set to minimum tension. Even at that point the throttles do not become floppy loose either. Out of the box they are easily as smooth as my Cougar throttle that I tweaked according to community suggestions for smoothness. Throttle movement is WAY smoother than a stock cougar's, even when the tension is increased.

Thank you for doing it.

So, in effect, the Cougar happens to be an expensive proxy by which the new T.A.R.G.E.T. programming software can recognize the rudders?

There are many afficionados out there that will keep their modded Cougars, regardless, but for those who want to step up instead, it will be a bit of a loss.

One more question; does T.A.R.G.E.T. recognize custom or other brands' USB rudders and allow them to be included in the Warthog programming?

The Warthog appears to be well designed though - the feel as you describe it, is what the Cougar should have been like, with the lower precision of pots, of course - and while I am not crazy about the buttons on the throttle base - I myself would have preferred a stand alone console - the dual throttle and grip are real nice. That paddle switch on the grip stands out real nice; a completely new construction.

EDIT: I thought the Warthog's grip had no paddle switch?

There isn't one on the real stick but the one on the HOTAS Warthog is removable.

I can't speak to what TARGET will or won't do - I haven't seen that version of software except for what was shown at the demo.

You are correct in that the real A-10 doesn't have a paddle switch. I believe the paddle is made to be easily removable...and without the paddle, it would take a real effort to hit that switch.

I don't think it's been written yet how much nicer this paddle is than the Cougar's, also. Minor change in the grand scheme, but it feels much nicer.

Also forgot to mention...yes, what was said before about the magnetic lever for linking the throttles works very nicely. It's completely unobtrusive and (again, assuming the current design as shown at the Release goes to full production) will not be coming loose by accident.

The Thrustmaster event was an exclusive invite-only deal that took place last night, after the close of the first day of the show.

If I buy that sucker, the paddle stays on.

Looking forward to any info on the programming software. I hope, that they will allow any other - or DIY USB rudder pedals - to work with it.

Exactly.

I didn't specifically ask, but I assume that non-Thrustmaster hardware will not be recognized or programmable through T.A.R.G.E.T.

So this T.A.R.G.E.T. software rivals CH Products' Control Manager in terms of programming AND it supports the Cougar? This is going to get very interesting.

Too bad about the rudder pedals, though. When will TM bring out some new ones? I may have a cheap analog gameport-to-USB adapter, but it completely kills all semblance of precision-quite a shame given that my RCS pedals have a Hall sensor kit installed.

I'd probably have to keep my Cougar anyway; while the A-10 throttle has far more switches, it's lacking in rotaries.

Well, although I have no idea what it does, the A-10 does have a paddle switch... of sorts.



It's the yellow lever just below where the stick grip mates to the control column.

Either way, using the new stick grip with the Cougar TQS will be just as cool as the "Whole Hog"...

I know I asked in the other thread but for those of you testing the Warthog have you any information on previous versions of Cougar files working within T.A.R.G.E.T? Specifically would previous files from Foxy be recognized or the possibility of being able to convert the files to a new format for the T.A.R.G.E.T software. I hope so because it would sure make my life much easier instead of having to redo entire formats for all the games I play.

Also is there a limit to the number of devices that you can control with the T.A.R.G.E.T software? Mainly because if you have a simpit you might have devices cobbled together via Bodnar boards or from other manufacturers sticks and throttles to control other functions and not just on your stick or throttle.

Does anyone know the price and will it work correctly without have to spend a small fortune in modding it? I just bought my second cougar, the first one I sold after a week of flying with it. Yes it was unmodded, and I'm planning on keeping this one. I love the throttle on the 16, not a big fan of the A-10 one. Although I worked on them for 6 years, can't wait to start the A-10 up, since some fuel shop guys were APU run qualified.

Reschke:

I don't believe there will be a means to import Foxy files. The scripting language I've been using is completely different (very C-like). As I've stated, I don't know if this exact software will be released or merged with TARGET, but I've been told all the functionality I've been using (and then some) will be available.

You don't need to use TARGET to control your Bodnars or anything else - you're free to keep using those as you are. I do not know whether or not TM intends to allow you to control devices they didn't create...but perhaps this hasn't been made clear. Just because something may not be controlled by TARGET doesn't mean you can't use it. TM's software will not interfere with anything else where multiple controllers are allowed (All current Falcon and LockOn versions for starters.)

The only real "incompatibility" I'm aware of at the moment is there is no current solution to use "Cougar specific" pedals without keeping your Cougar installed at this point. There's nothing stopping you from leaving the Cougar or any other controller (or Bodnar, EPIC, Xkeys, Hagstrom....) hooked up and controlled by its own software.

Out of 9 members of the Virtual Thunderbirds, 5 of us have flown the Warthog. None of us sees any need for modifications...and if I recall correctly, the current members of the team own an aggregate of something like 7 FSSB R2 modded Cougars, 1 FCC modded Cougar, Several sets of TM Elite pedals (w/ Ernie's mod)....the point being, we're a picky, demanding, perfectionist bunch who have a lot invested in our rigs making them work suitably for us...and so far we're loving the Warthog. There's a few things one person or another wishes were different, but that's normal - not everyone thinks/works the same way.

That paddle switch will be very useful even if not totally accurate. For one it'll make a great trimmer switch for Black Shark and if things stay the same a wheel brake control, although I'm pretty certain braking will be able to be assigned to an axis in A10C unlike FC2. Can't say how much I appreciate the reports from E3 from all involved as well as all the side info thanks to everyone!

Thanks for info Teej I appreciate all the stuff you can toss out there to us. Let TM know if they need to get a prop sim guys perspective on this setup that I know a few guys in VF-17 (www.vf17.org)...myself included...that would love to get our hands on these rig just to put it through the ringer for a while to give them some information.

Also if you could find out how this "virtual" controller thing works that would be interesting as well for those of us with USB rudders. This whole software thing is what really interests me. I am just getting ready to start building my pit and have a couple of old X-52's that I was going to cobble into the panels for switches and stuff. If that doesn't work then I also have access to a T-Flight that a buddy has which doesn't work due to being broken (he got mad one night flying Aces High drunk and tore the stick off the axis) but all the buttons are good so I could use that.

Rick "Ray" Charles, the guy who I flew the demo with, plays WW2 online and has been posting on that forum about it (not here at SimHQ...I saw him posting in the hotel room last night but I didn't recognize the site). He reads here too, so hopefully he'll drop some comments.

As to the rudders, what's the issue? I use USB rudders and the Warthog software doesn't know or care about them and I can't see any benefit to having them unified except for playing archaic software that only recognizes one controller.

When my script is not running, my control panel game controller list shows:
HOTAS Warthog Throttle
HOTAS Warthog Joystick
Pedals

When I launch the script, the HOTAS entries unplug themselves, and I get:
VTB HOTAS WARTHOG
Pedals

Plus, directinput is still limited to 8 axes per controller. The Warthog already has 7 (Stick XY, 2 throttle, microstick XY, slider where the friction lock is on the real bird).

Thanks for the heads up. In some of my older prop sims my current Saitek rudders aren't recognized so I end up plugging my RCS pedals into my Cougar for game play. In others the Saitek pedals are recognized and work well.

As for WW2Online...that ain't no flight sim game there...hehehehe!

Thx for the reply, I'm sure I'm not the only one that has some worries about that.

Point taken. I hadn't really looked into it. I thought WW2O was something along the lines of Warbirds.

Hey, guess I was right!

Will be able to integrate with my existing Cougar/Simped combination...

You're right about that - the flight model isn't the best but it is a lot of fun to fly around and it's a blast with the Warthog. Although the flight model isn't as realistic as Aces High or Warbirds, it FEELS good, not quite as "on rails" as Aces High. I think that's mainly due to the fact that Aces High uses a table based data set for the flight model to pull its information from, whereas WWII Online uses a physics model, although a bit quirky in regards to flight.

I just finished flying with the Warthog in Aces High II in the dueling arena. I was going head to head with Dodger and Bighorn/Texture in the P-38. I was experimenting with the dual throttle action and seeing how it might give me an edge over a '38 driver without dual throttles. I was surprised to find that it does make for some very impressive slow speed over the top hammerhead style reversals - my adversaries were impressed and I pulled off more than a few snapshots thanks to my careful management of the throttles. While it seemed to be very useful in certain situations, it was also very easy to get carried away; my mismanagement of the throttles at the wrong time sent the airplane into some wild yaw-induced departure stalls. However, with some more practice I think I'll most certainly have the edge over a pilot that doesn't have split throttles.

The whole setup just feels great to fly with, I gave it a good workout. As I'm sure you're aware, there's an impressive amount of stick and throttle work involved in those slow speed stall fights! The Warthog handled it nicely and I wasn't fatigued afterwards.

I am extremely impressed with the out of the box Warthog. I don't see any need to modify it in any way. The throttle and stick movements are flawless and the feel of the buttons is great.

Thanks for the information there Ray! What do you use in AH as your ID? I go by Reschke over there also and fly for VF-17 so I am mostly in Corsairs except when I am hammering along in a B-25H doing some earth moving. With that said I am glad to hear about the ability with the twin throttles to make them function as such. It is good to know.

'nuff said...

C'mon September, c'mon... never been so quick to disregard a summer so fall can arrive.

Another article here:

http://www.gamingshogun.com/Article/7014/Thrustmaster_HOTAS_Warthog_E3_Preview_Event.html

Yeah. Their coverage of the stick is OK, minus the confusion of rudders and slew control. Also, the throttle quadrant doesn't have a "trackball" on it...the slew control is the new name for the equivalent to the old microstick, and as implemented more closely resembles one of the touchpoint nubs on some laptops than it resembles the Cougar's microstick. It's about the only thing on the set I'm not a big fan of at this point. The way it's implemented works OK and will probably just take some tuning and getting used to (since it's also on a different finger from the cougar's setup), and at this point I haven't targeted enough weapons to get myself dialed in on it.

That, and the VTB do not fly FSX.

It's also covered here:

http://www.gamingnexus.com/FullNews/E3-2010-Thrustmaster-HOTAS-Warthog/Item18305.aspx

That article isn't correct with that statement, the VTB does not use FSX. No disrespect to FSX flyers but FSX isn't up to par to our requirements.

EDIT: Sniped by 10 minutes, that's what happens when I'm moving rooms, lol.

Not to disagree, but aren't the LOMAC F16s just a 'skinned' LOMAC F15? I heard that the F15 in LOMAC while quite entertaining lacks as far as FM goes. Is that true?

Shouldn't the VTB flying Falcon 4 AF? The FM are said to be much more accurate than LOMAC's F15.

Yes, I enjoy FSX, it's really nice to fly slow movers with.
VRS F18 Superbug is said to raise the bar, though, as far as jets are concerned.

F4AF is even worst than FSX...graphic and netcode nightmare!!

As to F4AF...well...as Panther mentioned, the netcode isn't up to it. Lots of lag spikes that kill formations. Plus the alignment varies depending on where it's being viewed from. In order to look "in" on the Boss' computer, right and left wing essentially have to move up to line abreast from their own perspective.

In FC1 yes, it was an F-16 graphic model on the F-15 flight model. Generally in FC2 we've been flying with our model pasted over the AI F-16. The flight model is great in some ways (speeds and fuel burns seem better - we tend to match the real team's fuel burn pretty well based on the ops checks from audio) but has other disadvantages.

It's not just about flight model...it's about which sim allows us to present the show in the most authentic way possible.

Two of the most stable online sims I've played are LOMAC/FC2 and the Il2 series, I haven't played ROF online enough to really get an idea of that.

Ray has put together a very impresive post on the Aces High BB here:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,291234.0.html

Can't wait 'till September now.

Some nice replies in that thread too. OY VEH...

Yer. Now where's me ol' RAF slang dictionary... lemme see here... "Line Shooter"...

Heh. Spooled up AH2 for a bit of fun. Was kinda amusing to take the Me-163 from the default airbase and fly a few map squares over...and land it on the carrier. Didn't think I'd have enough fuel for that.

Something's missing!

An extension for the grip.

That would be sweet if it were included.

I agree... besides provision for pedals

Yes the ability include pedals in the programming procedure was expected, but fortunately, sims now have the option to separately control axes and adjust them in the sim itself.

That compensates somehow for this IMO small shortcoming.

Well, it's small to you and me. Not so small to someone who has hundreds of dollars/pounds invested in a pedal solution that requires a Cougar hookup.

Hopefully they're put at ease a bit by the fact that they can continue using the rudders mapped through the cougar until the day comes when someone steps up with a dedicated pedal interface.

Teej,
Looking at the video, it looked like the stick you were flying with was just the center portion of the base, and it was mounted on a pedestal attached to the seat. Will this be a standard feature of the stick, as that will work better for those of us flying center stick as opposed to side stick (aka-F16 style)?
Thanks,
Dud

Yep, The black plate is held on by 4 ordinary screws.

Outstanding! Makes me wish I just hadn't spent all that time and effort extending my Cougar stick to make it work with the new pit. Oh well, I get to play with it for a couple months anyway!
Thanks Teej... you lucky dog!
Dud

Well, hey...you'll be able to use that extension with the Warthog too, if you wish. I'm a bit torn, actually...I like the stick on the side F-16 style...but I am tempted by the longer throw of an extended center stick.

If I got the Warthog, chances are I'd leave my FCC-modded Cougar stick base on the side, but put the deflecting Warthog stick base in the center.

Given the expenses involved, though, most will have to settle for one or the other...heck, I'd probably have to in order to afford the Warthog in the first place.

Having the stick tween the knees adds to the immersion. When in an IL2 dogfight I feel like I'm doing pilatees. Downside is the stick gets awful light feeling and unless your running one of the gimble mods the little bit of play at center is enhanced. I run the stick curve in foxy at 7 and tune it from there in game. To add feel back (Weight) I ended up using high density seat foam and 2 shift boots. The foam gives a progressive feel when adding stick deflection. I packed the crap out of the center hump. Springs were another option but I would have needed about 6 and the "feel" wasn't right. My pit and I are drooling in anticipation of the "HOG"

Hey Bong, what did you use for the male side of the cougar handle nut?

I used a 3/4" Galvanized gas union threaded on to a 3/4 male copper fitting. I did have to dremmel reliefs in the union for the feet on the stick base.

Off Topic: Bong, I don't believe the good General said "Screw"

On Topic: Nice looking work there Bong!

Ghost,

Thanks Devil Dog

I was stationed at Pulgas with 3/9 back in the 80's 0311 combat crunchie lol.

Bong, been playin' the game since '78. Started out at MCAS El Toro. Yeah, I'm a POG. Don't hold it against me.

PM inbound.

Something that i think nobody asked, and if somebody did i miss it:

Consideraing that each device will have its own USB cable, will Thrustmaster sell throttle and stick separately, or you will be forced to buy them together?.
It could be a good option for tight busgets to buy one device first and later on the other, if they are interested. Besides, from what i understand of T.A.R.G.E.T explained here, the software wouldn´t be an issue.

Not a chance. At that price point it'll be all or nothing. I seriously doubt they're interested in budget problems

Which would be a shame. I have a throttle that I'm perfectly happy with (can't do without those rotaries), if I could buy the stick separately I'd seriously consider it. If I'm forced to buy a throttle I don't want or need then it's a non-starter.

Well, you're really only missing 1 rotary. The wheel on the base acts like one.

If you're not interested in dual throttles, you could always use, say, the left throttle axis in place of the other rotary.

Just a thought. Don't think I'd necessarily want to do that, but you could.

This is not a budget stick for people on the fence the type of simmer that buys this kind of kit is already in over their head lol! Folks that build F-16 replica pits come to mind when thinking of this HOTAS, I mean folks with expendable income!

It may be expensive, but look at it this way-it's bound to outlast whatever PC you're using it with by many years and still retain most of its value, especially since they seem to have gone all-out on quality this time.

Chances are if I decided to sell my FCC-modded Cougar + Hall sensor-modded RCS pedals as a set, I'd get at least $400 for it still. (It may match the Saitek X-65F and possibly the TM HOTAS Warthog's price at that point and thus be a bit optimistic, but there ARE rudder pedals included, unlike those two...ones modded with something that costs around $75-80 by itself.)

No news . . . Nobody with anything to say in 7 days!!!

Are you kidding me?

I think they've all drowned in their own drool

Martin...

It's up to Thrustmaster to bring out those news. I'm still checking www.thrustmaster.com daily for a official press release but instead of Warthog, they are teasing us(I know that's not the case, but feels like it) with more Disney licensed products...

Sorry if I missed this... 3 questions about the stick:

1) Can the ~1/8" thick plate be removed from the bottom of the stick leaving just the cylindrical part of the stick? That was always an issue when using the Cougar as a center stick: The large, square base would rub the thighs when it was properly positioned.

2) Is the handle of the stick rotated CCW with respect to the base as compared to the Cougar. That was another issue with the Cougar... You could use it in the center position, but it didn't feel quote right since on a real center stick, the handle is rotated about 15°CCW so the the "right hand" feels ergonomically correct when grabbing it.

3) Still confused about the rudder pedal disappointement... Yes, it would have been nice to have rudder solution from Thrustmaster but... can't I just plug in my old Elite Rudder pedals into my PC provided it has a "gameport"? Not sure anymore... Do modern PCs have a gameport and are there adapater to go from gameport to USB?

Edit: just found 2 I think:

http://www.amazon.com/Manhattan-Usb-Game-Port-Adapter/dp/B0009PXKZ8/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F3U200-08IN..._pr_product_top

Yes the large square plate is removable, but you will have to mount it to something for stability. There are 4 screws which attach the plate.



I don't think it is, but if you are going to remove the plate and mount it separately it's an easy mater of just offsetting your mounting holes.

2)
I guess that not everyone will use it in the same way.
Some people might go for a between the knees mount, others for a sidestick.
3)
Sims today allow you to use more than one controller.
Using pedals with their own USB connection or a gameport adapter should not be a problem.

Thanks for answering...

Regarding 2... I rotated my entire Cougar CCW as veiwed from the top to use it as a center stick, but this is still not the same. Rotating the Warthog by offsetting the holes will give the same (incorrect) feel if the Warthog is not poperly designed (which I doubt, but don't know for sure). By simply rotating the entire stick, the stick will be comfortable with respect to the wrist angle, but the movement axis will be offset incorrectly as well. When one "pulls back on the stick", you'd really need to "pull back and a little right" to get elevator input only (and no aileron). This is undesireable.

In a "real" plane with a center mounted stick, the stick grip is rotated CCW (as viewed from the top) with respect to the pure axis of the stick such that pulling straight back does indeed give a pure elevator effect only... This is really the answer I'm after here: Is the Warthog handle rotated ~15-20° CCW as viewed from the top, relative to the Cougar, to compensate for the forearm of the pilot being in a different position than when the stick is on the side?

Sit in a chair and try... It feels terribly awkward to grab a center mounted stick while the wrist of the right hand is bent from the line the forearm natually makes. It's much easier and ergonomically correct to sit with a wrist that is only slightly bent when operating a center mounted stick. Surely this was not something missed by Tmaster, but you'd really need to compare a Cougar with a Warthog as viewed from the top to know... Probably noone has done that yet... Anyone???

Hmmm.

Out of the box of course, the stick is aligned with the axes.

With the lack of mechanical axes...I bet it would be fairly simple to correct this via software.

Somewhere earlier in this thread someone wrote that the warthog's shaft is mounted with a balljoint and springcentered.
At the bottom of the shaft is a magnet with a sensor under it at the bottom of the stick's housing.
Getting the desired rotation of teh stick may be as easy as mounting the stick the way you like it and then rotating the sensor to get the response you want.

Pertinent observations.

I wonder why TM would oversee such a detail.
I assume the grip is detachable from the base - just like the Cougar is - and that the connector on the base should be - ideally - able to rotate slightly.

Since the grip is attached to the shaft by means of a coupler, readjusting the grip to about 15-20deg CCW should not be a problem... provided the connector (in the shaft) can rotate along with its mating part on the grip.

If it doesn't I guess all that can be done is extend the stick slightly and make an extension of the stick. Which is consistent with the original A-10 design.
Ideally, TM should be shipping an extension. The production cost would be insignificant. And for the price tag is runs for, adding a 8-10" piece of pipe with a matching thread should not hurt Guillemot.

Also, is the grip no slightly tilted forward on the A-10?

So you'd solve that discrepancy too.

I bet the third party tweakers will come up with all sorts of after market improvements after the WH is released. Guys with CNC machines will probably make replacement stick grip shafts that are offset, just depends on how easy it is to get the PS2 connector and associated wires in and out of the shaft.

I'd like to see a new outboard panel for the throttle base that includes the other side of the flap switch guard, something about the outside edge of the flap switch being unshielded makes me imagine catching it on something and tearing the switch off. I think the sides the box are fastened together with rivets though, so probably way too much trouble.

Lets see who is still reading this thread.

Contest!

SimHQ has 10 Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog T-shirts to give away. Contest closes at 2300 GMT Sunday night. If all 10 shirts have not been given away, watch for a follow-up contest soon.

Send me an email (not a PM please) to (guod@simhq.com):

Subject of email: HOTAS Warthog T-Shirt
Your answer to the question.
The mailing address you want it sent to.
Your SimHQ nickname (log-in name).
The size shirt you want and the alternative size if already gone (medium, large, x-large).

The question is, how many subspecies of warthogs are there? I'm referring to the animal not the beloved plane. I'm looking for a number.

Ready. Set. Go!

The contest is now closed.
Watch for the next T-shirt contest soon.

Congratulations to the following winners of the Thrustmaster HOTAS T-shirt Contest!

Cougar_ED_BT
Tbag
JAMF
Galwran
Boildown
dewey405
Muggs
LtFransky

The correct answer is 4 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/warthog
The shirts will be mailed out this coming Friday.

Crap, I somehow linked into wild boar.

Wohoo =D

Woohoo indeed.

Excellent, thanks!

HuA!!!

Well ain't that a kick in the nuts...spent all weekend working on the new house to get my office and basement ready to build my desk/cockpit area and didn't get a chance to jump on the shirt contest...well fark it.

Great, thanks a lot!

Reschke, there are two more for grabs if I understand correctly.

Yep. We will have another contest soon.

Yeah and with the way that I have been working on this new house I seriously was just kidding but that is my luck with things like this.

http://www.simhq.com/_technology3/technology_175a.html

Wow!

Thanks guod!

Is the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog going to have a mode selector by any chance? I haven't seen anything that indicates that one way or the other. Thanks in advance.

And yet another question: does anyone have a detailed picture of the switches, flap lever, etc on the throttle base? I have to decide if I am going to change my pit design to use those switches as labeled on the base, or figure out a way to change the lettering on the base so I can make the switches what I want. I have a thought on it, but I need to know exactly what they have labeled those switches as.

Random thought: wouldn't it have been nice if TM had left the switches off of the throttle base and just made an add on switch box, similar to the Saitek ones?

Thanks,
Dud

Can someone correct me if I am wrong. But what I understand so far is that if you own an old TM Cougar, you can still use it with the TM Warthog. So, if I want to use the new Warthog stick, but still want to use my old Cougar throttle I shouldn't have any problems? As long as both the stick and throttle of the Cougar is attached it should be ok to use, right? I think this is very important because if it's true it's going to make flying il2 so much easier for me.

Yes migmiker,you can administrate everything using T.A.R.G.E.T.!

But you still will have the eight axis limit of all the devices plugged together that use T.A.R.G.E.T. Its a directx limitation.

If my understanding is correct, T.A.R.G.E.T. will basically be every bit as capable as the CH Products Control Manager while having a flashier and possibly more intuitive interface.

Can't wait to get my hands on it myself...though I'm assuming that unlike the Cougar's logical programming, it's probably done in software, also just like the CH Control Manager. Makes me wonder how the new scripting language is going to work together with the Cougar if it's supported by T.A.R.G.E.T.

And as for the mode selector question, word is that the "boat switch" on the side of the right throttle works just like the F-16's dogfight/MRM mode switch. Three positions, no spring to center on either extreme.

Thanks Falstar!

Now if I could just see it through all the drool and fog on my monitor...
Dud

First sign of something happening in a long time. Not much, but it's something.

Thrustmaster's "Where to buy" section of Warthog now lists availability at Amazon UK.

Nothing there but hoping there soon will be.

While tinkering with my Cougar, I thought of some neat features that I would like to see in T.A.R.G.E.T.

-Automatic game/sim profile switching. My G5 and G500 mice could do this already. It might have been complicated with the Cougar's hardware logical programming system, but it doesn't look like T.A.R.G.E.T. will use that part at all.

-Axis settings tied to each game/sim profile. By this, I mean deadzones, sensitivity, curves, and even physical axis to DirectInput axis mappings. It's probably possible with the Cougar already if I were to fidget for a bit in Foxy, but I can think of more streamlined ways to do it.

(The latter point hit home when I started faffing about in Enemy Engaged and Crimson Skies, noticing a rather large deadzone for the rudder. Those using twisty-sticks probably wouldn't find it that large, but it becomes very obvious when using rudder pedals. Makes it a bit more difficult to make fine adjustments near center, though it could be worked around with a bit of curve adjustment.)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Thrustmaster-Hot...7705&sr=8-1

^^ Great.

Checkout the new Saitek combat pedals too. Look better than my simpeds!

http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/compedals.html

wow.. any idea when these pedals will be released? man, i just started to go after thrustmaster RCS's also...

I thought just the opposite, the width doesn't look right but maybe it's the picture. I've always hated pedals that were too close together and the Simpeds are set just right.

Those pedals look slick, but they do seem quite close together...also, it looks like they'd slide more like the CH Pro Pedals than rotate with a slight arc like the TM RCS/Elite and Simpeds.

I wonder if the toebrakes are strain gage/load cell-based like the Simped F-16 pedals or car brake pedals.

Shoulder width is about right assuming that is the case with these pedals. No reason to be "spread eagle" like the Simpeds.

It looks like the pedals will retail for less than $200 when it is all said and done with. It will be interesting to see how the quality is since x amount of people had problems with their pro flight pedals getting stuck at times if they "overextended" the axis.

http://news.filefront.com/madcatz-announces-new-saitek-pro-flight-accessories

I had some fun adding notes to the "customer images" (Link below the "no image available"). I hope SimHQ doesn't mind? There's a vote to the right for "like/dislike".

New flash on the www.thrustmaster.com site. You have to(can) pull the throttle up to go over detents.

Yes we heard about that from the E3 event that they did back in June. Thanks for the site update though.

The A10 has AB?

Just saw the price for the A-10 HOTAS...........over $500 bucks!!! Guess I won't be getting this anytime in the next 10 years. Hope I can get my cougar working.

IIRC, the review indicated that the controller had optional AB detents that were easily removable (allowing double duty for AB aircraft simulation). There are also idle detents.

As I said a while back I hope that isn't the price for over here in the USA.

No way, you won't have to pay 339$US. It'll be 499$US.


Sorry, "Schadenfreude".

I don't expect a serious replica controller to be cheap but hopefully it'll be cheaper (probable) than some of the replica 737 yokes made that only feature a few buttons. From what I've heard so far the controller is well worth the asking price.

As for AB detents I think they come with the unit but not installed. I seem to remember that from the Preview article a few weeks back. Repeat you wont have to remove the detents, rather install them if you wanted to fly an F15.

Amazon is under the assumption that the Warthog is 598g, whereas 14lbs is closer to 6300g. Try to correct their errors and you get a mail that they don't accept SimHQ's URL of the Expo preview as proof. Too bad TM is a bit slow in releasing details on their site.

Really? All I see is some toy story 2 thing...

NVM....got it

The $ has not been released yet. As of E3 the dollar amount wasn't going to be the equilvant to the € amount listed.

Guess I'll wait til the official price from them.

Just preordered from Amazon.co.uk, with P&P £367.92 danish price is then via XE.com 3271.68 dkr Not too bad considering I have seen the HOTAS Cougar to the slight amount of 3250 dkr here, in my mind it is a no brainer. the CH gear is getting old (But still running without a hitch, but I'd like something beefier and with dual throttles.

Staffan

I wonder if it will feel awkward to lift it straight up over the detentes (assuming one uses them)? On the F-16, you tilt it upwards to the left all in one motion to go over the detente, which is a pretty smooth action, but it seems a bit awkward to be lifting straight up. Time will tell.

I would prefer finger lifts. But what the heck...

You only have to lift the throttles to go from idle to cutoff and from mil to AB. The throttles move from cutoff to idle and AB to mil without having to lift the throttles.

Aw, that makes sense and it won't be awkard then. Thanks for the info, Panther!

The finger lifts are for the starters.

I'm trying to remember if the A-10 throttle quadrant I had at one time had finger lifts - I don't think it did.

g.

The F/A 18 one I had, did.

I'm waiting for the official price as well. Companies have a notorious habit of doing sign swaps, regardless of exchange rate.

But if they ARE factoring the exchange rate, then I'm screwed. Part of the reason why Cougar mods (that aren't Hall sensor kits) are so expensive for us on this side of the Atlantic is the USD-to-EUR exchange rate...

Got a mail from Amazon:

"Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog Joystick and Throttle for PC"
Estimated arrival date: November 02 2010 - November 08 2010

Still looking forward to this one... and now I have an oppertunity to get some cash to that AmEx card.

Staffan

400 Euro? Really?

I think that would make it about $530 here in the U.S.

You lost me at Euro....

I think that release date is as accurate as their idea of Warthog's weight.

That Amazon page doesen't work anymore. Maybe the amount of pre-orders overloaded their systems.

Or they figured out that the weight published will cost them some cash, still not the first time for Amazon. or all were just preordered, We could spaculate for weeks and never know the truth.

Staffan

LOL! Wouldn't be the first time...

It'll likely by $399 in the US. European prices includes VAT, ranging from like 17-25%, depending on country. In addition goods are usually priced higher in Europe to begin with.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3060659/Re_Thrustmaster_HOTAS_Warthog_.html#Post3060659

Eh, I am all for new products but I will be sticking with my G940. Knock on wood my G940 has been awesome in the six months that I have owned it and you can pick that up on Amazon for like $250 bucks and it includes pedals.

WHERE ARE THE PEDALS FOR THE TM WARTHOG? FOR THAT PRICE IT SHOULD HAVE PEDALS!

Maybe TM asked them to remove the product page "for the time being".

At least they didn't remove the SimHQ E3 preview throttle and joystick images from my gallery.

Oh no not again.........

No ones forcing anyone to buy something!

The Warthog will probably be priced well under 400 US dollars. The G940 has definitely improved greatly since the latest driver, firmware upgrade. Although I can still get bullets on target faster and more accurately with my old MSFF2.

Anyone that already has pedals should seriously consider the Warthog. It sounds like it has a superior gimbals system, in that it isn't a gimbal system, but some sort of Ball and Spring setup. This should make for a very precise smooth kit.

That's a moot issue. I can discuss the cost of something all day long, that does not mean I am suggesting that a company is "forcing" me make a purchase. Voicing an opinion is what community discussion is all about, as long as it is not inflammatory.

I never said you couldn't discuss anything................

Just posting MY opinion in a community forum.

I don't really have any issues with the price, I have it preordered (Managed to slip in there before it was removed from amazon) and the price is not that bad, about what I had to pay for my Ch gear over 5 years ago, true prices are excessive here in Denmark, but as HHF said, noone is forcing anyone to buy this HOTAS, and just remember that it is a world of economy and Thrustmaster has to make a living, development has to earn itself in via sales, and I'm fairly certain that the US MSRP is not quoted anywhere yet, and it is usually cheaper overthere!

Staffan

A really good but expensive HOTAS can be "cost effective" for an "enthusiast" since it can be used for a decade. Much cheaper per year than upgrading the "enthusiast computer" (CPU, GPU) to play the games at high FPS. In fact, cheaper than one high end graphics card (that only "lasts" a couple years).

If I didn't already have two excellent HOTAS, I'd probably be buying a Warthog (contingent on good reviews).

The DirectX limitation is eight DirectX axes per controller. Although we never actually saw this demonstrated or confirmed, I imagine that T.A.R.G.E.T. is capable of creating more than one virtual controller using physical axes from multiple physical controllers. This is the sort of thing that CH's Control Manager can do easily.

Here are the relevant pictures published by SimHQ so far:





Granted they are not the best close-up of the flaps switch. I will see what else I have in my stash from E3.

The Thrustmaster website still links to amazon.co.uk Thrustmaster website
So I doubt that TM asked them to take it away.

Staffan

I pay $400 every year or 2 for a new GPU. My Cougar is what, 10 years old now?


In the grand scheme of things, it will be a bargain.

Realistic and rugged is two reasons I think its well worth the money. We can LOL all we want at the price, just because we may not be willing to pay that price doesn't mean it's not WORTH that price. And maybe worth is determined by the individual (I don't think so). There is a virtually no market for replica controllers (especially combat ones) the civilian replica controllers they do make would cause a heart attack on seeing the price. How much stuff can you blow up with a 737 Yoke or Radio Stack? I agree with UTR above it's a bargain and most importantly NO OFFICIAL price has been announced and no controller has been released. We don't know its true quality nor do we know it's true price. It's hard to speculate on the controllers value or quality if we don't know the details we need to make those assumptions.

I'll pay good money for a good HOTAS that doesn't look like it was built in the 80s or belongs in a Spaceship! My two cents.......

Joe, can you divulge which 4-way on the stick has the push-down function? I took a wild guess and picked the one left of the stick.


Errr... it stays empty when I try different countries.

Luckily I was able to pre-order from the gallery page.

There are no countries there, just amazon.co.uk, leave the countries blank

Staffan

You guess the correct HAT, the grey one on the left side.

The mic switch on the throttle which is a 4 way hat also has a push down (in) feature.

They're high on dope. The most I would even consider paying would be $299.

I've been using a $40 dollar Sidewinder Pro for 10 years, and it works with every single flight sim I have, no problems, and no headaches.

I'll buy a HOTAS one day when they make one problem free that doesn't cost more than a kidney transplant.

Well that's great, everyone has a limit to what they'd pay for something. I think the general consensus among most flight simmers is that it's a fair price. I don't think saying that they're high on dope is fair (I know you mean it figuratively), especially since we don't know the final MSRP nor any accurate idea of the true quality.

I like to add that I'm not a TM fanboy, I've never owned one of their products. But I am a flight sim fanboy in regards to software and hardware. It's hard not to be when our hobby is such a niche market these days. I reserve my final judgment for the price and real reviews, but all info we have now tells us that this will be one of the nicest combat controllers ever! That's worth getting excited about.

MODS: Is there a way to combine this topic with the already existing Warthog HOTAS thread? We're hitting on the same points here and we might as well consolidate the discussion if possible.

HHF

Will check on it.

Thanks Panther!

IMO, out of the box, the Cougar is somewhat of a POS. lol

My CH stick and throttle have never had an issue pots, needed modding, or required fixing of switches....and they were cheaper and a LOT more precise.

For looks, the Cougar all the way. Functionality, build quality, and price wise, my CH setup is a lot better than my Cougar (and I didn't even buy one of the early Cougars).

That's a valid point the cougar track record doesn't set TM up to be a favorite. But we've yet to see the Warthog for real, so it's hard to make a judgment. Companies make bad products all the time additionally they learn from those mistakes and make good products too. Only time will tell if the Warthog will live up to the hype/price tag. When this thing hits the street we'll know the real truth!

If you want to get an idea before it hits the streets, check out Ray's preview. The consensus among those of us who have tested it is very similar...

Your opinion and my experience are two different things. I am still using my original Cougar that I have had since they were released on the market. No mods, no problems. Rock solid dependable.

I came from F-16 FLCS/TQS. I used the Bob Church Mod Chips on that set. Used them for years. And before that it was the FCS and WCS...

I have plastic stuff I use for games but, for my sims, there is no going back. TM all the way!

I totally jinxed myself and my sticks are gonna die tonight

I won't lie and say that my Cougar hasn't had its quirks. The microstick is acting up a bit, the metal used is cheap zamac/zamak, the speedbrake and dogfight switch housings weren't aligned, and the paint is really rubbing off of the stick now, such that I'd really like to see it repainted.

But at one point, I had a CH Fighterstick, Pro Pedals, and DT225, all USB and thus Control Manager-compliant. The Pro Pedals developed a response issue with one of the toebrakes that would have its output spike a bit when moving the main rudder axis, but nothing too serious. They were all generally quite precise and the most programmable controllers on the market thanks to the Control Manager.

Nevertheless, I sold them. Why? Poor ergonomics (except for the DT225; that was just sold because it was lacking a scroll wheel, I needed money, and I didn't really play that much Marble Madness). The Pro Pedals were too closely spaced, and the Fighterstick dug into my palm in a way that the F-22 Pro or Cougar stick never did. And while I never owned one, I did also get to use the Flight Sim Yoke with three levers for throttle/prop pitch/mixture, and one of those levers had snapped off on one of them. Aside from that, it also dug into my palms kind of like the Fighterstick did. For something that could be used for hours at a time, I expect it to be comfortable, and that's what CH needs to work on.

The HOTAS Warthog is looking to bring the best of both worlds, if Guillemot/TM has really learned from their mistakes with the Cougar. TM ergonomics and refusal to omit things like the trigger's second stage and paddle switch, and CH durability and programmability (if T.A.R.G.E.T. delivers). I can't wait to get my hands on it and evaluate it for myself.

Your money, your choice.

The Cougar was priced over $300 upon release and for years afterwards. That was 10 years ago. Simply adjusting for inflation, if it was released today it would be well over $400. The Warthog is loaded with Hall sensors and pretty serious switch hardware.

In the 5-6 years I've flown my Cougar (which works as well now as it ever did) I've gone through several times its price in motherboards, processors, memory, GPU and monitors.

Shoulder width is fine with a side stick or desktop stick setup.

Not so great when trying to set up a rigid center-mount system that you have to wrap your legs around.

I generally agree with the reviews but when you use that as reason then someone attacks the review as fanboyism. Because TM only let fanboys test out there stuff ............

Fanboys... O'boy, that'd be nice if true.

I'm simply sharing information in case anyone is interested.

We (the Virtual Thunderbirds) base our credibility and precision flying on us choosing to work with TM, and I have no problem telling others that's why - not the other way around. We wouldn't be continuing our partnership with TM if we weren't ready to put our NXT/FSSB/FCC modded Cougars in the closets to collect dust based on our experience thus far with the HOTAS Warthog.

Fair enough. I'm not saying I have ever had an issue with my Cougar (outside of the stick movement feeling being just too heavy for me and some slack developing in the center), I am referring to TM Cougar reliability in general. However, despite the fact that my Cougar is working just fine (overall), my CH setup is still superior with regards to precision and price. It may not be for everybody due to the light springs and plastic construction, but it just flat out works and it is spot-on with regards to precision. It is actually sort of irritating since I can't really justify a new stick util this one breaks. LOL

Lawn Dart I'm on your side lol! I tend to mostly trust the impressions from community members. I was just pointing out the obvious pit falls. I think SimHQ and it's members/contributors in general always report things honestly and try to keep us informed. But some troll is always going to find a reason to say you guys are just part of TMs clever marketing plan.......... and that the X52, G940, cougar and etc..... all had fanboys. I for one am glad that we have community members that actually have one of these sticks and will honestly report on their impressions.

It's a discussion I know but most people are complaining that the cougar had problems or that the HOTAS is more than they're willing to pay (ie: too expensive). Personally I find that a little unfair, given the pricing isn't final and that the HOTAS hasn't been released to compare quality to the Cougar or any other controller for that matter.

Ark, thats kinda funny I have preordered the TM Warthog, even though my CH setup (Which has never given me any grief) is still in perfect working order, fortunately my wife has given me the ok to upgrade as long as I will buy her a copy of DCS A-10C (a no brainer here since we have had some fun with BS on LAN here.

Staffan

Squid YOU ARE a lucky man. I guess that's how the Danish roll! Although I don't have room for two simpits nor do I want to share my projection display!

I don't have a problem with the pricing, but I am going to be wary of the Warthog based on my experience with the Cougar. I personally feel that I got burned with that purchase and the money I spent is a little much for the bookends that I use them as now.

However, does that mean I write this new offering completely? Obviously that would be foolish. Am I going to be an early adopter? Not on your life. I'll see what reports are after the production units come out and people have used them for a bit. I don't doubt the people that have used them. But I don't think these are production units. After my Cougar, TM will be a company that I approach with caution now.

I hope they are good and sound. I would like very much to be able to use them. I just want no surprises this time around.

I just bought a GTX 480 so justifying another $400+ purchase would be a toughy. My wife is more into other non-sim games so she doesn't get the whole joystick "thing". haha

Havign said that, she told me to just buy it, even after I told her it was going to be $500+ (according to that link earlier). I just don't see the need for it right now when all of my other equipment still works just fine.

That's the same approach I'd take too if I was in the same shoes! We've been vary about what to expect since most of us have been using FFSB/hall sensor modded Cougars, but our expectations have been exceeded in every way possible with the HW thus far. It's not fair (to the HW) to be compared to the Cougar based on history, but by all means I understand why everyone makes that comparison (as they should). All I'm saying is, this is a completely different animal and one that I'd be very surprised if it doesn't live up to its hype!

Well, I hope the negative reaction to the price doesen't make Guillemot to cut corners in the manufacturing process in order to bring the cost down...

+1.

Give it time, and even if its pricey, if that hardware is as good as all previews are claiming, with time lot of people that find it pricey will buy it if they are interested.

If they learned, then why is the pots on the Cougar still crap? 10 years and you still need to mod it, but at least they fixed the DG switch and misalignment issue. I have always liked the cougar, but at the time couldn't see paying over $200+ and having to spend another $200+ to fix it. I very hope the WH is as good as the tester have said it is.

I certainly am interested, but I also am a little skeptical. And as such, like some, I will not be an early adopter.
I wonder what kind of warranty covers the Warthog. If it's the regular 1 year warranty, then I am twice as skeptical.

New, innovative gear should by no means be cheap, but I wonder if people will get their money's worth.

If it weren't for the ingenuity of the community, the (modded) Cougar would never have the reputation of reliability it has. The success of the Cougar rests largely on the shoulders of the developers of the different mods, and not on TM/Guillemot.
In this day and age companies try to increase their profit margins, but at what cost? At the consumers' expense? The priors with the Cougar doesn't raise confidence. And if there is something I would loathe, then it would be to spend $500 on a set of controllers and then keep paying $200, $100, $50 to improve a design flaw.

Paint chipping off the stick, buttons malfunctioning, pieces breaking in a product of this caliber should be inadmissible. Those are reasons why I prefer to err on the side of caution and wait, as well.

But as I previously said, I'd love to peek into the insides of the WH.

I can't help but but in on the side of the Cougar.
I am also one that has had my Cougar from launch and have had absolutely Zero problems with it.
No paint flaking, button breaking pots spiking at all.
Maybe I was just lucky but on that experience I will buy the Warthog in a flash, and relegate my Cougar to being a source for my RCS (which did spike like crazy until I bought the CubPilot Hall mod)
which in terms of size and feel are unbeatable. Just wish I could mod them for toe brakes.

Not at all. I'd put the number of modded Cougars at around 3% of Cougars out there.

Nutty

Years ago I wanted to get a Cougar, but just couldn't bring myself to spend that much money on something that generated so many complaints. I'm taking a leap of faith and will be buying the Warthog when it comes out hoping that it will be better made and supported than the Cougar was.

I would say the amount of modded Cougars might be one or two points higher MAYBE but I also had one from launch and recently just sold it to a guy. I had zero problems with the stick; the throttle flash got me with the dead pot in it but other than that not a single major issue.

As for the Warthog...that is what I sold my Cougar and modded RCS pedals for...the start up cash.

I meant an entirely new product line, whereas newer HOTAS Cougars are still Cougars. (Remember when they even forgot to grease the gimbals on a later batch and took a while to get around to fixing it?) The Warthog is slated to dodge that issue by using Hall effect sensors EVERYWHERE. Haven't tried the T.16000-M, but those who have only have good things to say. That would probably give us a glimpse of what to expect from the stick half of the Warthog.

And to add to all of this, I think the original Force-Controlled Cougar mod with its TrackPoint-ish sensor seems to be slightly prone to jitter. Just enough to make it undesirable for IL-2 Sturmovik use, but I bought it for Falcon 4.0 anyway, just because it's the closest I'll probably ever get to an actual F-16 without enlisting and it doesn't seem to bother that sim much.

That is why I dropped US$333 shipped on this particular Cougar on Frugal's about four years ago-it was used, but was already modified. If we could get much better quality than that out of the Warthog at $400, it'll definitely be a better option than spending that much or more on a U2-NXT + HS kit, FSSB, or FCC-2 by itself, on top of the Cougar to put it in.

(And speaking of Cougar mods, why hasn't anyone modded the microstick yet? That definitely needs to be replaced with something more TrackPoint-style and much more reliable, or at least as close to it as can be done while still retaining the push-down functionality. I sure hope the Warthog improves upon that...)

I was just getting the point across that the cougar..after all these years should be fixed. They should have put HS in it, buttons shouldn't have been broken and misaligned. Why did it take so many years to fix a few of the small problems. I hope the WH delivers and is a very good stick. Depending on the price, I'll get one also.

That I understand and agree with, though it also brings up the whole new question of "Which Cougars have the better parts installed already?" (I suppose it could go by serial number.) The bad remarks on the first ones would probably clash with the reviews from later models if that were the case.

Admitted, most of the problems shouldn't have been problems to begin with, even if things like the speedbrake and dogfight switch housings are easy to fix with a nail file. (And what about the little things like the rotaries having far more physical travel than what corresponds to the DirectInput axis range, and furthermore, WHY is the DI axis center offset from the physical detent center?)

Then again, I vaguely remember reading something on Frugal's about how the Cougar might have been cheapened compared to its HOTAS 2000 prototype incarnation, just to get the price down. Something that they don't appear to be doing with the Warthog, we hope.

Despite all its...quirks, I just can't part with my Cougar for the time being. I sincerely hope that the Warthog will be the one to displace it. (But for that to happen, TM/Guillemot needs to release some T.A.R.G.E.T.-compatible rudder pedals that don't involve slaving the ones we already have to a Cougar. I still play my fair share of first-DirectInput-ID-only old games.)

My T-shirt arrived today Thanks Doug and SimHQ! Finally I have a propper geek outfit

Grrrr. I don't have mine yet, and I'm on the same continent!

Customs is probably making sure it's cool to have one of those hot HOTAS t's.

http://www.fnac.be/fr/Catalog/Detail.asp...roduct=10532593

This is the third time Warthog has been on sale..those two previous times were short-lived.

2-4 weeks seems quite optimistic, however they did say availability in September during E3.

Same here! Thanks for the shirt guys

Mine came today many thanks.

Another pre-order option, this time in the US:

http://www.shopblt.com/cgi-bin/shop/shop...er_id=!ORDERID!

Thats great to see and at least we now know its going to be about $400 USD for the order.

Thanks for the link Doomer.

Anyone else know of another place that has it on pre-order here in the US? I am having trouble getting that link Doomer posted to work when I try to place a pre-order.

http://www.pcsuperstore.com/products/11192631-Guillemot-2960720.html

Thanks again Doomer. Now how the heck are you locating these places and why isn't the others like GoGamer and Amazon listing it as a pre-order. Just crazy I tell ya.

"THRUSTMASTER HOTAS WARTHOG FLIGHT STICK" to Google does the trick.

That search string now reveals few more sites that weren't there yesterday.

Best yet: 385USD

http://www.provantage.com/guillemot-2960720~AGUIL01L.htm

Been leaving off the Flight Stick part and all I get are the sites from forums only. Thanks for the heads up.

In Germany the Warthog is actual listed from about 230 Euro.

Edit: Oh no only pricing errors

Can you give me the link to the german store please? Can't wait to see how this puppy really performs, after it has been released. I wonder if TM is aiming for the same release date all over the world, or if Europe and Asia have to wait till the first batch has been shipped to the US.

http://computer.hitmeister.de/maeuse/joy...nel_name=491657

But thats a pricing error. I have just ordered one of them, but the have told me, that i have ordered a driving wheel

Yeah, most of the sellers below have it as the Ferrari Wireless GT Cockpit 430 Scuderia Edition. You know the one, folding, looks like you're on a jetski?

I just realised something and it bugs me about the the new TM set. As we know, they have a paddle at the base of the stick that is removable if you don't wish to have it (supposedly the A-10 doesn't although someone showed pics of it having one). I wish they had done something similar with an antenna rotary. It's not so much that I care about rotaries, but given that this is almost identical to what is in the F-15C and E models, and given that Lomac is out there with an F-15 already, this throttle is screaming for that antenna wheel on the outboard throttle. I wish they had put one there, or put one that you could remove if you wanted to go exactly like the A-10.

It was a great idea doing that for the paddle on the stick, I wish they had thought of that for wheel and the throttle as well. Sort of a shame.

You know what? I agree with you 100%. TM put a lot of thought into this HOTAS with only a few exceptions...

1) They are clinging to the removable stick grip idea. Fair enough. It's a much closer (still not perfect, mind you) grip to the late Block F-16 grips the A-10C stick is based on and therefore a perfect substitute for you original Cougar grip when flying an F-16. We shall see if any add-on stick grips are manufactured in future (ie. F-15/F-18). I'm not holding my breath. The removable paddle switch is all about retrofitting the Cougar with a better grip, it is not forward thinking, only backwards wrt compatibility.

2) Related to 1) above, If they were planning to turn a RL A-10C throttle friction knob into a mappable axis and then add yet another style of friction control, why not just put an extra wheel on the throttle grip and leave the friction control as is? Now you have an A-10C throttle quadrant that could easily substitute for an F-15/F-18 one. Flying an A-10, ignore the throttle wheel. Flying an F-15 or F-18 - ignore the associated switch placards/assignments on the throttle base AS YOU WILL ANYWAY WHEN FLYING ANY OTHER SIM BESIDES DCS A-10C or LOMAC... Example: I fly Aces High 2 with my Cougar. I use just about all the axes and buttons on the Cougar to fly a WWII prop sim. Did WWII aircraft use a HOTAS system - no. Nothing in AH2 calls for a missle step button or an antenna elevation thumb wheel but I map other functions like armament selection and elevator trim to those controls. Everybody is going to do the same with the WH outside of LOMAC or DCS: A-10C and will have to ignore all those pretty switch function placards (and integral lighting) just like Cougar users do when they aren`t flying an F-16.

They gave us an axis in place of a friction knob and an afterburner gate for an aircraft without an afterburner. Why not go whole hog (pun intended) and give us a more generic F-15/F-18 throttle quadrant instead...

IMO they didn`t go this route making the Warthog a bit more jack-of-all-trades because the No. 1 customer to TM is the military. The public are just happy second bananas - and I will be a very happy boy when I receive my HOTAS Warthog, be sure. The military is going to get an A-10C HOTAS with a different method of setting throttle friction and a mappable axis they won`t use. We are going to get an A-10C HOTAS with a bonus axis that isn`t as ergonomic as it could be because you`ll have to take your hand off the throttles to use it.

Based on the Cougar`s history I wouldn`t be surprised if the very talented modding population out there finds a way of adding a axis/wheel to the Warthog throttle. I am already looking forward to the day that someone offers an extended stick shaft with a stronger centering spring (to offset the greater moment arm the metal stick grip produces at a longer distance from the fulcrum) and a wiring bundle extension, maybe even twist the stick mount adapter 10 degrees or so for better ergonomics like in RL. Ian J and all you other CNC wizards out there, get on it, I`ve got the money put aside!

Georgetown. Cool.

I guess you can't think of everything is the theme to this. In their defense - I hadn't heard anyone else mention "hey, why not a wheel?" so I can't really give them a lot of grief over this. But as you said it does have an afterburner region so yes you could use this for other aircraft. I don't want to take my hand off the throttle to operate that "friction" axis. I've sort of relegated that in my head to landing gear .

Hopefully there would be a mod. I was thinking of my own actually. Probably overkill, but if the handle is metal, then why not a magnetic antenna wheel (possibly using bluetooth so you don't have to mess with wires). Likely not perfect but something I came up with last night still thinking about it.

That's absolutely not true. There is no special version for the military, and they buy them through the same channels as you and I. This is a HOTAS designed for simmers with a great deal of input from simmers.

Now I absolutely agree that having perpendicular rotaries on a throttle are highly desirable even in sims which don't have specific assignments for them. Hmmm .. I wonder if there's a way to mod the Warthog with a Cougar throttle grip. Now that would be awesome!

Nutty

Nutty (James), You being the programming guru you are, I ran into a game yesterday that apparently did not for some stupid reason have a way to assign DX axis in the game. They were simple key presses to move the elevator, aileron, rudder, and throttle. I know you know there is a way to do do this with Control Manager:



And it works pretty well. With the next gen of TM Programming software, will this be (I'm pretty sure it will) available? Or something like it?

Thanks...

Hi Nutty, always nice to see posts from you. I guess I could have been a little clearer, I never said the military would receive a "special version", I assume it too will get exactly what the public gets, just as the USAF did with the Cougar (at least that what my Cougar box says). It will be a valuable addition to military A-10C fixed based trainers because it so closely resembles the real deal.

My post above has more to do with wondering about TM's motivation to once again offer a HOTAS specific to only one aircraft type. Some thoughts:

I still have fond memories of my Mk I TM stick and WCS throttle. The throttle was generic and the B-8 style grip was the universal jet stick from the 50s into the 70s so it complemented any sim I played on my red hot 486...

Not long after I bought my Cougar years ago a buddy came over to see the new toys while I was playing Warbirds or IL-2 or something and our conversation went like this...

"What's A/R DISC mean?"

"Dunno."

"What about ANT ELEV?"

"Dunno. I don't know anything about F-16s"

"Why'd you buy an F-16 stick and throttle?"

"Because of all the buttons and the programming, I don't play Falcon so the stencils are wasted on me."

Now, I will happily use my WH playing DCS: A-10C, as well as Rise of Flight, FSX, AH2, Black Shark, LOMAC, etc. but all those nifty lit up switch titles won't mean much outside of the A-10 cockpit. So that's why I assumed military interest was what TM had in mind when the decision was made to specifically model the A-10C HOTAS system rather than a more generic one which could also be used by virtual Eagle and Hornet drivers as well. I wasn't one of the many simmers polled during the genesis of this product but I bet the average opinions were about dual throttles, better gimbals and better pots, not "We all want an A-10C this time".

Don't get me wrong, as I said above I can't wait to get my hands on the WH and I am very happy to see this long awaited resurgence in high end HOTAS gear. Any hands-on reports I've read on this and other forums about the WH have only increased the drool rate. It's been a lovely hot summer here in Ontario but each day I think more and more about September

While Logitech and Saitek did take the more "generic" road when designing their offerings I have watched the forums and based on customers' reviews I'm sticking with TM (again), even if the switches directly below the throttles won't mean as much in FSX or DCS:BS or whatever. Really, even in DCS: A-10C, once the engines are started I can't see ever needing to touch anything on the throttle base forward of the autopilot panel again until I'm back on terra firma, at least in normal ops.

TM needs to make a plug 'n play landing gear lever, even doing circles and bumps at Nellis it'd be used more often than the APU start switch

Hiya Jocko,

I think in this case they were looking to model it closely after a known setup. I agree that there's a good argument for producing a HOTAS specific to our needs as simmers that doesn't necessarily imitate what's in a particular aircraft. I have to say though I do like the idea of a Cougar grip on a Warthog throttle. That would be simming nirvana for me in many respects!

I'm going to have a closer look at that sometime ....

Cheers

Nutty

@531 Ghost: Sorry but I'm never going to comment on the programming and the scripting. I'll leave that to others. I've no interest in getting back into that online again with all that goes along with it. I'm just a simmer again and intend to keep it that way now.

Cheers

James

Okay James. Fair 'nuff. Thanks.

http://www.dirkfassbender.de/how_to_make_a_joystick_grip.html

Goes without saying that the same approach works for throttle grips too
Sourcing the potentiometer with center detent and the pushbutton potentiometer with center detent might be a bit harder. I'd use rotary encoders for both, mapped to buttons and handled via software

There is one big draw back to that method. It relies on access to the real aircraft. I've been trying for a while to get access to a CF-188 (my brother is a ground tech) so I could copy the throttle, but so far, it's a no go.

Actually it doesn't really matter how you obtain the first positive, you could just sculpt it out of plasticine. Getting a rough from the original helps with dimension accuracy, but in theory you can obtain the same results with a good number of pictures. Also, getting access to a Thrustmaster TQS isn't all that hard

I've been thinking a lot about Corsair8X's idea to add a rotary to the WH throttle and as I know nothing about electronics maybe someone else could speak up. The F-15 has a rotary very similar in shape to the F-16 ANT ELEV one, mounted on the outboard side of the left throttle grip. Here's a picture from this site: http://aerotronicsllc.com/f15throttle.htm





If you look at the same throttle on the WH it looks very similar. I wonder if it would be possible to add a Cougar rotary to the WH by mounting it in the same spot... I imagine some bright spark would have to make the electronics for it and route the wiring through the throttle base to it's own USB connector, maybe it would just be a completely stand-alone axis that would still be seen by TARGET, but it could be attached to the throttle grip anyway.



if there's enough interior room available above the pinky toggle you could put a hole in the throttle grip and mount it up there like on the F-15.

That's a very good idea, and I bet TARGET will let you program that axis that way. With my luck though I'd snag my watch band on it or something and end up dropping the gear at 300 knots and damaging the airplane