Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News

omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg

lol - I got 8 minutes left on the download, as I'm curious if it'll recognize the Steam DCS-BS version

Sweet need to get BS up and going again!

Glad I passed on BS1, so no pressure at all for me to buy BS2. Looks good though; but can still say "NO!"

This reminds me of the development path taken with Flaming Cliffs. FC2, although an improved version, was a new standalone and not expansion - and isn't really compatible with FC1. A lot of the modding community was frustrated with the incompatibility. I don't see the MP mission development as very extensive or strong now for FC2. FC2 was also billed to be compatible with the new DCS world, with Black Shark. But now Black Shark is eclipsed by a new standalone, not expansion of BS1(correct?), which is also not compatible with BS1 and FC2 as well. I think it's great that they are making improvements. It's just frustrating that the same sim gets eclipsed along with much of the modding for the original - which in turn depresses efforts for the shiny new version. And then the next sim comes out (i.e., A-10) and is not compatible with either the "2" version modding of the older sim, as well as the next in the series - BS1.

As deep as some of the modeling is in these sims, like BS1 and the A-10, the lack of a shared, common and compatible upgrade path isn't an absolute killer or disaster or anything. It just feels like a missed opportunity that for some reason I thought was within reach. Echoes of the Microprose "Electronic Battlefield" concept that sadly never came to pass, I guess.

There's a technical and legal aspect there, not all of it necessarily directly tied to the code of the sims themselves. There are a lot of challenges to overcome while at the same time not ceasing work.

All in all though, ED is definitely trying to move forward with the DCS concept, and this isn't easy - I think if one looks at previous attempts and how they failed to materialize, they'd probably see that it's just not easy. ED is doing whatever it can, IMHO, to keep the dream alive /and/ working toward it with every iteration of the series. Expect stumbling, IMHO.

Hang on, hang on..

Can i have some clarity please.

1) A:10 and BS are being merged
YES
2) BS is a new standalone product (AKA Version 2)
YES
3) BS version 2 is a new payable product and those with BS Version 1 have to rebuy ?
YES price 19.99 USD Requires BS 1 or 39.99 for the full BS2 version

[edit] just got the answers.

I can say that i am not 100 percent fully happy with this. In fact i am bordering on being freking pissed. I am all for supporting ED. But i don't want to pay for product x, then product y then pay again for patch z which is supposed to make x and y work together (as we were expecting this from the start.

So what happens when the next flyable is released. DO we then have to pay to patch both BS and a:10. Add another flyable, do we then have PAY to patch BS, A:10, the not yet named new release to the latest release.

I have to say, this pretty well sucks and does not make me want to buy every version of the game

Taking the piss here a bit i think.

I'm happy to pay the price, I invest a lot of time in all of ED's products (since Flanker 2), literally hundreds of hours on each of their products, so to me this is extremely good value for money. I've spent a considerable amount more money upgrading my PC's/laptops/joysticks/Track IR's/Rudder pedals over the years, and I feel I've got my money's worth with everything I have bought in both entertainment value, and my own sense of satisfaction when I "master" (i.e. can fly reasonably competently) each aircraft. I've bought other games for similar prices, and played them start to finish in less than 20 hours of playing time, and never touched them again; these products leave me feeling like I've wasted my money. We are a niche market, and if we don't pull together to support it and keep it alive we run the risk of losing it altogether, which would be a travesty. I'm passionate about my hobby, I wish I had more time to devote to it, and paying $20 for this is a very small price to pay for such a quality product and the hours of fun I will get back from it.

ED have consistently provided support and upgrades and patches, listened to customer feedback and implemented a lot of customer requests. I think they are an outstanding company that not only provide the best service within their resources, but they "set the standard" and then work even harder to raise the bar and set the new standard. Just look at the difference between DCS A10C from now to the first beta we had only a year ago, and we are on the brink of yet another "fully featured" patch to make it even better.

When I originally got BS, I played it pretty much exclusively for about a year and a half (then FC2, then DCS A10C) and I more than got my money's worth. Taking BS2 for a very quick spin (just to check it runs okay on my system) had me instantly satisfied that I have not wasted my money, I know I will be putting in well over a hundred hours into this cockpit.

Then don't.

I most likely will be.

+1 what andyfoot says -

The software costs pale in comparison to what I spend on computer hardware.

I bought all the LOMAC titles and A-10C. Install the new files and don't look back.

Kind of like the Battlefield series... Then there's iRacing which is subscription based, and that model doesn't entice me at all.


I'm a software developer... and changes / upgrades are a part of my work. It is tough when a new release of code is not compatible with prior results, but these things have to happen.

WC

PS And there are some games I've purchased that get no playtime (Civ V is one) oh well, did not get my money's worth there. But it's peanuts compared to the hardware, and I generally give away the stuff I don't use.

I LOL at people complaining about having to fork over $20 for a quality sim, but don't think twice about that new video card or extra monitor.

I just pushed myself over the cliff here and bought BS2 for £25. After 10 minutes in the game (and I've never flown BS before), I say it's money well-spent.

I think it is about time ED had a proper business model and this is it. You get what you pay for and if you want high quality simulation products...FECKIN GET USED TO PAYING FOR IT :-)

Kind regards
Mizzy

The difference mate is that a lot of people (I'm one of them) bought Blackshark on release....and now we have to pay again for what is essentially the exact same game (or 98% the same game) in order for it to be compatible with DCS-A10 after it was proclaimed these were modular games and would work with each other. Even if we aren't particualarly bothereed with the inter-operability of the two titles, support for BS1 has now being halted, so although we may just want single/multiplayer action on BS there are several bugs which have never been fixed, never will be fixed or have been broken along the way such as the training missions. The only way we can have these working again is to essentially buy the same game again.

The worst thing that can happen is that every module you own needs patching/upgrading with each new release, and that will mean it will get more expensive as time moves on. Take On Helicopters has just got my cash.

I understand where you guys are coming from, I really do. You expected Product A to be able to do XYZ, but it only did XY, and now ED is asking for more money for Z. I sure would be pissed if they would charge me $20 to get DCS A10 "updated" to work with DCS: Next or even to fix the bugs. However, I am also looking at the other side of the coin here. Probably took too much manpower to solve all the bugs or "bring it up to date" to make it a free patch or whatever.

In my personal view, however, the quality of these sims is so much so that I don't mind paying for them. I'm the guy who doesn't pay full-price for a game if I can help it --- I'll wait for sales and discounts to roll around, or if I wait long enough, it'll be marked down in the local game stores. However, I'm also the guy who doesn't mind paying extra for titles I know I will enjoy. I got the Starcraft 2 box set, which was double the game-only price. I got Mass Effect 1 and 2 collector's editions. I bought DCS A10 at beta, and I bought DCS BS2 on release.

Also there are other reasons for the angry mob to be here.

1) it was inferenced the entire time that this patch was to be free
2) Bugs are still rife within BS, are we going to have to pay again to patch up these bugs.
3) ED gave absolutely no indication until release that to integrate with a-10 it will be payware.

(just this point alone could have resolved a hell of a lot of angry criticism)

4) no official changelog of what you actually get with BS2 over BS 1

They say that there was a lot of work that went into it.. Fine. Work is not free. But ED did not give 2 cents of care to let us - the guys that buy their product a heads up of what was happening. Not to mention loads of problems left unfixed, no changelog etc.

Thats what i am pissed about. If they don't give a #%&*$# about me the customer, then i won't give a #%&*$# about them the deveolper and i won't purchase to support i will only purchase to indulge which is less money for them from my pocket.

On top of that ED and mods are pretty much saying we are getting all these extras with the DCS A10 engine now running BS2....but many of us already paid for that engine when we bought A10 anyway. The term 'modular' is complete rubbish, proven that we need to pay for a 3rd game to make 2 we already own work together.

Mob?

1. A large disorderly crowd or throng.
2. The mass of common people; the populace.
3. Informal
a. An organized gang of criminals; a crime syndicate.
b. often Mob Organized crime. Often used with the: a murder suspect with links to the Mob.
4. An indiscriminate or loosely associated group of persons or things: a mob of boats in the harbor.
5. Australian A flock or herd of animals.

A Vocal Minority, at best, maybe. Having cause to repeat the same mantra over and over and over again does little to increase the size of dissent - merely adds to the noise-nuisance-factor.

Then again, I may be looking in all the wrong places

Ok, so you are happy with no change log? No prior warning, still loads of fixes and that fact that EtherealN said that the patching cycle has to end somewhere? SO no more support for BS, will we not see the fixes we asked for for years?

I have no problem with the price, but i have been a supporter for a very long time and i would like to think that ED would be clear to us in the direction they are taking this.

Maybe you are happy with the way things are, maybe you don't care. that is fine, but i know a lot of us do (to the description of mob you so kindly posted) as the ED forums have a 100+ thread on it already.

Me, maybe its because i am an adult. I like customer service for my money. I like to be involved with a company i support. I have raved about ED longer than a lot on these boards. Being treated like a customer is all i ask.

Nice try, but I will not be drawn into a Pro's vs Con's argument. My views on the BS2 matter have been and will remain unpublished.

I was merely stating that, and I reiterate, that there exists a vocal minority that seem to suffer from the delusion that if they repeat the same story over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, then somehow it lends further credibility/momentum to an argument already stated.

News-Flash: It does not.

It merely adds to the noise-nuisance-factor is all.

You are a moderator and tester for ED.

A vocal minority..... Maybe you should downplay things some more. 100+ page thread is pretty conducive to ED stirring the pot.

Add in fact other moderators have (as best as they can for being a moderator on the ED forums) alluded to the fact that the lack of correspondance from ED in relation to this direction may not have been the best way to go.

Customer service......

Nil in this instance.

Seems to be a difference in what you are saying and reality.

A lot of people who said they are happy to pay have also said they are not entirely happy with the way ED went about it.

Just answer me this, why were we not told?
Where is the changelog?

Yes, and? What's that got to do with the price of eggs? I call it like I see it, irrespective of the role I play over at ED.



Not necessary. Unlike you, I have actually had a very close look at the thread. Of the 960-odd posts, trust me when I say that the voices of dissent are indeed a vocal minority. But hey - prove me wrong: Mere allegations are not enough other than to vamp up the nuisance factor



I thought I made it clear that I would not be discussing the BS2 release?

Again, my issue lies with my inability to understand why it's necessary to go on and on and on and on and on ad nauseum. It seems as though I'm not going to be getting an answer anytime soon though.

I'll move right along in the interim though - it's been fun

It is a vocal minority. We've seen them before, and we know what they look like. Regardless, it isn't as if ED is not listening. Since you've said that you've been around for a long time, I think you also know that ED listens quietly.



I'm not certain what you refer to in terms of customer service. We've tried to answer questions. And there are also plenty of people who were just plain entirely happy about it. I'm not trying to say people who are complaining aren't there, I'm just saying you're overestimating the amount of dissatisfaction with respect to those who are pleased.



Because ED listened to the community (zing!). You know what I'm talking about - ED announcing things and then being held to 'promises'. Would it have been better to do it differently? I don't know. One way OR the other the same thing would have happened, with some minor differences, IMHO, but I'm just guessing.

Anyway, all of this has been said again and again - do we need to keep going in circles?

That's what I asked

Honestly GG - If you manage to get a decent answer where I failed I'll send you a bottle of 10yr old Single Malt - I kid you not!

LOL - The reason we keep going around in circles is that some people are peeved (rightly or not in various peoples minds)
Then people who say they have the asnwers post retorts that do not cover the answers.
Then thos exact people can become all god and mighty and using whatever experience (i am not allowed to mention) cover the tracks of decisions that have been made that created these long discussions.


@ grey, again another good post, if you keep this up, i am going to have to change my opinion of you.

I do beleive it could have been handled better. No promises needed to be made, to which us the fanatical kidnapper community would have held employees and moderators (especially you Gghost) to ransom.

All ed would have to do is just announce (before hand) something to this effect - of course, some time and cosideration could have been fused in with this reaponse.

"To the community, ED are confirming an upgrade to DCS Black shark to bring it in line with DCS:a10c warhog. Changes to the oroginal DCS Product contain X, y, Z. As implementaion of black shark into the DCS A:10 we also decided that a greater sound engine and X and Y and Z would be needed to make black shark as high fidelity as possible.

It is our regret that all this work has posed a bigger task than originally anticipated and the costs have far exceeded our budgets. We here at ED beleive in the integration of the DCS world and beleive wholeheartedly in the DCS concept. Therefore we have decided to undertake all this extra work. This may have a cost repurcussion to the end user and we are working to offer a full new package at X amount for those who do not have DCS Black shark and for those that do, our devlopment team have worked hard on creating an ujpgrade for a reduced price of Y

I trust you will enjoy the major effort and work ED have put into this and we would like to thank you for your custom."
Something like that may have gone down very well. It would have for me. (And it took me 2 minutes to write)

That my friends is customer service.

Would it stop whining. NO, Does it offer promises, Well no with a little re-working. Does it thank the community - yes. Does it provide customer service - yes. Would it have limited the whining,..... I think so

Ohhh and GGhost.... IF viper can deflate his ego, i think you will find he owes you some scotch.

NOT HARD FELLAS

^^^^^ Hit the nail on the head

The reason we are going on and on and on and on and on and on ......... is because we are receiving no information, no information, no information, no information, no information.

Viper pretty much sums it up, happy to talk about anything and everything DCS/ED related....apart from BS2!



...and this is in a thread called "Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News" - It's hardly off-topic!

Well that depends - are you gonna stop moaning now? And no, Ego has nothing to do with this and I would request that if you do have something personal to address to me, then do it via PM and not on an open forum - I would of thought that it is the very least that you can do to conform with common decency and a modicum of respect. I am honestly getting tired of these veiled attempts at 'personal attacks', even more so after you were requested by an admin of these very boards to cease.

Common sense - Yes, most definitely.

@Paradaz: What information are you looking for?

And why is my input on the subject so important to you? I am not here to feed your appetite for triviality



Yes and nobody said it was. What I have alluded to is the fact that your same argument expressed thirty times in the same thread just adds to the noise-nuisance-factor and nothing more. But please, don't let my opinion sway you. By all means, rant on.

Ahhh Viper - you do me no justice. I will confirm to you that if i was to personally attack you on this forum, you will surely know abou it. But calling things as i see it is not me attacking you.

Quite clearly, from your very first sentance in your retort, and by the way you respond to others, is the reason why i mentioned EGO. Quite frankly you are getting off pretty lightly considering..

Respect is earned, not given........

So, now that is over with, what do you think of the rest of my post ? Any comments ?......

Absolutely bugger-all, apart from the fact that it is good to see a post from yourgoodself that does not contain a BS moan/rant. Let's see how long you can keep it up for.

With that, I bid you adieu

Viper deals with things firmly. You can perceive this as ego, but he's just telling you things how they are, too. Same coin, other side. He's just saying that he's not commenting on BS2 one way or another and that should be respected. The arguing needs to stop because it is getting personal.

We can engage in back-and-forth but neither will the moderators of this forum appreciate it, nor will it actually get anyone anywhere. At this point it's starting to degenerate into baiting - it's not gotten very far yet, but it can slip quite quickly, so ... can we all give it a rest?

You are right / wrong Grey GHost. Someone is definitely baiting. And definitely not showing due professiolism.

I just don't understand it. Some will be happy to shut down my quibbles right away with non-justifications and then when asked why or for reasons of betterment (that that particular person requested) they just bait and run away.....

Noooooooo.......

You are defeinitely not showing the good of goods.

LOL Adieu sir, please come back when you wish to extrapolate more.

This is not an attack, just a kind request. Perhaps you could indulge a little more in the courtesy side. Adieu, Adieu Adieu.

LOL

That's exactly what they said for 24 hours after releasing the game. There's no reason that saying it 24 hours before releasing the game would have changed anything. They've said everything you wanted them to say, but you appear to not have noticed.

If a thread is 100 posts long, people should probably read it instead of just posting to it, if they had they would see that everything they are asking about had already been answered.

Pretty much what 'bogusheadbox' said in his last post, information regarding the changelog, there is no way on Earth ED haven't got one, confirmation of whether BS1 will get a final patch to fix any outstanding issues etc. I've asked the question before on these forums and from yourself or Ethereal is a reply based on your own opinion which doesn't really confirm it or not.

Considering that I bought DCS BS on release, did the beta purchase with A10 etc, I'm really interested as to what I'm really getting for my upgrade money. I essentially bought the new engine with DCS A10, I bought and have flown BS so I'm keen to see the full list of additions to see (in my mind) whether it's really worth the money when I have already paid for approximately 95% of BS2 already. No-one else can answer that for me, so I'd like to see for myself and make the judgement call of whether I think it will be of real value.

I think the biggest issue in this whole thing is that up until now the announcements from ED regarding patches, updates and the DCS modules have been communicated very well, so a lot of people are wondering why this came out of the blue like it did. I mean, lets be honest here, ED would have known at quite an early stage that the work required was a lot more than anticipated/planned for and the update would have to be payware....it's not like this was something they only decided on 2 weeks ago, so why the radio silence and why are they so seemingly reluctant to give us some information. Considering a changelog has being part of every update they've ever done so far if I remember correctly and often well in advance of the actual release is the reason it's a surprise to a lot of people.

Like bogushead's post about them publishing some info, it wouldn't have taken much and would undoubtedly have stopped a lot of people including myself from even having to question their integrity. It seems like ED are unsure of how the future of these modules are going to pan out based on this upgrade release and the fact that they have stated they'd like to see it done better in future. For a developer that has additional plans for the series, it sounds to me like they're really struggling with the way forward and I can't believe it wasn't blue-printed properly with a good, achievable plan in place.

Now, although I'm an IT Systems Integration Engineer and I know the various processes that software developement goes through, I also know that things can go wrong, things can be under-estimated and problems can change the direction of a product, however I don't claim and never have that it gives any foresight into games/simulators etc but I can't really believe that ED haven't or hadn't mapped this out properly in DCS BS's design based on their claim to be making a simulator that would have additional modules as future releases.
The obvious route is to create the engine (the first being the one which hosted BS) and add the platforms as modules but this obviously isn't the way they are doing it based on what has happened with the complete overhaul for A10c. It's the same reason why myself and many others on these boards and the ED boards are questioning how the other modules will integrate in the future because it doesn't take the brains of an arch-bishop to realise that if future modules replicate what has happened with this first integration upgrade/release it's going to be a very expensive way of business because every single module that exists will need a whole load of work done on it to be compatible with the associated engine overhaul.

Yeah, $20 for a BS upgrade is nothing, but that will rise sharply when BS3 is required, A10c v2 and DCS [F18 or whatever] needs updating for the next platform and engine.......and from your own words many times over, no-one should expect the work to be done for free. Personally, I'd expect the engine to be the bulk of the complexity, with the platforms being the modules and require minimal tweaking to integrate each release. For what was originally pencilled in as a 9 month schedule per platform, that's surely the only way it could have been done.

Now all I'm seeing are words and sentences from ED and the mods such as 'hoped', 'ambition', 'never promised' and that its actually 'our own fault'. That's not ideal from a company that really should have had this planned a little more thorough. If I'm way off the mark here then so be it, but the reason I may off on a tangent is because I have no information, proof or official communication that says otherwise and I'm using common-sense as a base for how a modular, 9 month cycle per platform simulator release could have/should have worked.

Official communication on the matter of future software releases and updates was posted by EB1. I believe that I copied and pasted here, or at least someone did, but perhaps it wasn't this thread.

The gist of it was this: ED acknowledges that the way this upgrade was done is not a sustainable way of doing things in the future, and they're looking into other ways of doing things.
Wags posted that they are looking into integrating all the DCS software - but as always, no promises.

Regarding the changelog, I've already addressed that. That is all the information that is available at present, along with a bunch of answers to some of the questions you asked interspersed in this thread and others.

Beautifully written

List: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3427070/Black_Shark_2_List_of_Improvem.html

Thankyou

I'd encourage everyone to let the moderators moderate. Words like "BS", "rant", "moaning", and similar from all sides are inflammatory and don't lead to any useful dialog.

Spirited discussion is welcomed. Insults and innuendos are not.

Carry on.

And FWIW - $20 isn't a big deal to me (I realize it may be for others) and the envisioned scenario of having to pay to get each older module up to current standards seems to me to be recognized by ED as not being an ideal scenario. Those boys are smart over there and despite rumors to the contrary, they listen, digest, and try to work with their customers to provide a quality product while sustaining the viability of their company. I don't think complaining about how you perceive the business model works or doesn't work for you is out of bounds as long as the comments and questions are legitimate and respectful. And I would think it would be in ED's best interest to keep exchanges constructive and factual as well.

In the end, some might just have to agree to disagree, make their points known, and move on.

Good luck!

I'm about to dive full bore into DCS A-10C though...I have a nice, shiny brand new Warthog sitting on my desk.

Woot!

BeachAV8R

I've bought the upgrade based on that I think it's good value for the money....the only reservation I have and one that I'm interested in how it progresses is how ED plan to sort this module integration out. There's no doubt it can't continue with the way BS and A10c have which they've obviously recognised and Wags has acknowledged.

I'm guessing at some stage they have to baseline the engine and state that whatever features are there will be there for the duration, and whatever it can't do will never be available. I just hope they keep us posted as to how they are planning it to move forward, ideally before we start getting the news on what the next module is and regardless of their ambitions, and what they 'hope' to achieve.