Whilst Rick has been working diligently on the remaining code issues I've been trying to forge a reasonable Chinook cockpit. There's not much to say at this point, it's really just a lot of virtual metal, panels and switches.
There's still a heap of things to add and change. Many thanks to our newest expert 'Bear' for helping me to understand some of less obvious components in the Chinook pit.
Is it weird to be way more excited about this than the Apache? (And the possibility of a Kiowa... wow)
IMO, no. For me what makes this helo together with the new missions that will come with it so exciting is that we finally will have a combat helicopter simulator what will also model combat assault and transport missions (such as insertions, extractions, medvac, etc...) as opposed the other combat helicopter simulators released so far which only models gunship helicopters and missions. The rare exceptions are Jane's Longbow 2 which modeled UH-60 Blackhawks but unfortunally only a few limited small SpecOp insertion and extraction missions and DI's Hind which IMO, was by far the best combat helo sim that modeled other missions besides the usual gunship ones.
+1 I'm sick of painting for a Hellfire. SACLOS would be nice for a change - but what I really want is to fly insertions, resupply, COIN, scouting, patrol etc.
You would just complain that it was unfinished anyway, so you can't win. I can't win. We're all not-winning.
I did a lot of work today, this week (so far) has been quite productive on my part with regard to giving you guys gadgets to play with. And Dave's been busy with his Chinook over the weekend finally putting the main dashboard gauges together. He should really post an update but I'll do it on his behalf.
This is how it look in the game engine (you can see the editor debug stats). Once we get this kitted out with lights it should look fine.
Man, not only will it be a shift in gameplay going from the Apache's types of missions to the Chinook's, but it will be a helluva shift going from a small glass cockpit to a spacious cockpit covered with switches and columns of steam gauges.
I would have posted an update last weekend, but this build has been particularly taxing. After 8-10 hours of 3Dsmax and photoshop breaking my balls I just want to drink not post updates.
Man I could use a drink, I've had a weekend horribilis. Any mention of the term "Dot product" is enough to get my eyelid twitching, you're not the only one.
Question (prod), have you tried mocking up up in the engine at the range stagepost? Get a sense of scale from the pilot seat?
Excellent - the eye-twitching thing must be a developer-malaise (my left one was doing it a couple of weeks ago whilst trying to integrate a DRM solution - was worried it might just be me). Still no time for drinking, sadly - although v8.0 SHIPPED!!
I'm going to use Combat Helo to relax. For those that actually MADE Combat Helo - when you're done - put it down for a week and go do that drinking thing
In terms of scale, it generally feels cramped. Especially once you throw in a CPT. From the photos Bear sent me, cramped is about right.
All of the major components are in now and P/C is hitting 62,000 which is about what I expected. Object count is pretty ugly too, and that'll get worse once I add in all these needles and dials.
With all of the reflective glass that'll be going in this week, combined with the lights, panel back lighting and metal effects, it should look pretty spectacular.
Scaling is rough but it's pretty much looking as it should.
Having ridden in the CH-47 several times back in the '80s, that looks very familiar to me.
I remember one ride where the copilot turned a knob on the overhead panel and it broke off in his hand. It must have been important, because the crew chief ran up front in a real hurry.
We were practicing the art of helocasting, something MPs are not known for, at the time. So I jumped out about a minute later and I have no clue what happened to the Chinook after that....
Interesting story Cat. The rotary controls on the overhead panel mainly deal with lighting but there is a knob up there for controlling the FADEC engine management system. The same system is thought to have been involved in a Chinook crash in Scotland 10 years ago.
Panel is mostly done though I'm sure I've forgotten a couple of hundred things (like the floating dimmer switch on the chronometer and the selector knobs for the oil temp/press gauges)
Thank you Jeff. The Chinook will be a hard sell with it's non-combat role so it's important to make sure it's no slouch in the aesthetics department.
Panel backlighting
Panel backlighting + mock-up lighting
Cubemaps are in also. This is what is used to generate reflections on glass surfaces. I'll also apply it to the mirrors to give the appearance of a rear facing mirror.
Just looking at that view into the rear of the cockpit (and into the main body of the Chinook) will whatever you are carrying internally be visible in there?
Not if I use a cubemap. Cubemaps are a 'resource-free' way of making reflections but it's static so it won't show what you're carrying. Rick mentioned a dynamic cubemap system he was going to implement so that could be an answer.
Whilst working on the original cubemap I was blown away by how much the screenshots I was taking reminded me of the classic days of 2D cockpits. I thought I'd post them here.
Dynamic cubemaps will eat the soul of your PC and cause global warming. We can do it, we have the technology but my PC can't cut it. The trick is to interleave generation of each side of the cube (a face updated every 6th or 12th frame), so it's not quite real-time. Still sucks up performance for not much gain (IMO).
Not if I use a cubemap. Cubemaps are a 'resource-free' way of making reflections but it's static so it won't show what you're carrying. Rick mentioned a dynamic cubemap system he was going to implement so that could be an answer.
Whilst working on the original cubemap I was blown away by how much the screenshots I was taking reminded me of the classic days of 2D cockpits. I thought I'd post them here.
Cheers
Looking really good. 2D cockpits would have been much easier
We certainly don't want to be responsible for the end of the world, just so you can see whether the soldiers in the back are vomiting in their helmets, or on the floor. The static cubemaps seem a bit bugged at the moment. Infact they are blurring based upon the draw distance of the horizon in the environment object (which makes it near impossible to add scratches and grime).
Hey, no winning from my side i only wanted to point out your great work. Its unbeleavable those details. AND I LOVE THAT PILOT!! Great for keeping me/us informed.
This is the best Apache since Longbow2. I think it was 1998 when it hit the shelves. Correct me if i am wrong. More than 10 years for another "real" Apache!! And now a Chinook. IT is worth that 10 or 11 years.
Talking about Apaches in a Chinook thread could be considered fightin' talk!
Thanks to Bear for pointing out that I'd missed the starter key! I've also been experimenting with cubemaps on toggle switches.
The cubemapped mirrors are also in place. They work as expected (as you move your head the 'reflection' in the mirror changes to reflect your viewing angle). With trackIR it should look quite natural.
You guys, this is just crazy. When was the last time you stepped back and looked at what you've all accomplished? That would definitely be a "holy crap" moment.
No, you devs are crazy (in a positive way). YOUR work is fantastic. Its like Christmas. Every time i come here to see whats new BANG!! It hits me like an Apache.
NICE NICE work. Those details are amazing. Corious to play it with Track IR. I am very happy that it is implemented in the sim.
The minigun will be available for use in the Chinook door positions yes. Besides the two cockpit positions there will be two door slots (for minigun or M60), a ramp slot and a hole in the floor slot (for a load master). In Combat-Helo each vehicle slot can be occupied by yourself or multi-player clients.
It'll be the most fun you can have in an ass and trash helicopter.
As for the movie, it sounds like my kind of rubbish, will check it out.
Just one note: - Shouldn't the Chinook's rear machine gun be a M240 (the American version of the FN MAG) instead of the M60? According from the majority of sources and pictures that I saw regading the Chinook seems to indicate that the machine gun which is usually used in the Chinook is the M240 and not the M60. Of course that both machine guns look similar (afterall they are the same class of weapon - 7,62mm NATO Machine Gun) but there are diferences (including external) between both guns.
Anyway awesome looking Miniguns, can't wait to fire them in anger in Combat-Helo!
Oh god. Not top trumps again ... Ok I play my "RTFM card" against your "I looked on google card".
Hit me.
Cheers
Look AD, what I'm trying here is to give you (your team) the best possible info or resuming to make a positive contribute to your project but and unless I missunderstood you post completly, unfortunally my previous post seemed to piss you "a bit" off which again is very, very odd since I'm perhaps one of your biggest supporters/fan of your project, at least I consider myself to be. And I really find very odd your reply even because according to your info (what you posted) it also mentions that the machine gun that is used in the left and right sides of the Chinook is also the M60D and doesn't even mention the Minigun, so why are you modeling the Minigun? According to your own reply, perhaps you should consider that instead of modeling the Minigun model you should model (and replace the Miniguns with) the M60D
where it says (regadarding to weapons): "up to 3 pintle mounted medium machine guns (1 on loading ramp and 2 at shoulder windows), generally 7.62 mm (0.308 in) M240/FN MAG machine guns" Note: in this website there's picture of a M240 in the rear ramp of an US Army CH-47 Chinook.
Where it says (regading the CH-47's M24 machine gun mount): "NOTE: The US Army phased out the M60D in favor of the M240D and subsequently M240H, but it is unknown whether the necessity of a new cradle for the weapon resulted in the system being redesignated. The mount is otherwise the same. EDIT The M240 utilizes a modified M24 mount system that has been redesigned to accommodate the ammunition magazine and a catch bag for containing expended ammunition casings and ammunition links. It also features an improved roller on the pintle to prevent excessive and premature wear to the mount assembly. Mount system designation remains the same, in spite of such an extensive redesign."
And here are some websites where you can find more pictures of the CH-47 armed with a M240 in it's rear ramp (note that in some of those websites you have to search the desired photos since there is a considerable number of photos in those sites): http://www.wabbaly.com/photography-on-the-front-line/
I even go as far as saying that the M240 is more commonly seen in US Army CH-47 in the left and right sides than the Minigun itself! (Note that I'm NOT against the Minigun by the contrary!)
Honestly I think your data regarding the M60 could be a bit dated, all (or the vast majority of) operational CH-47 Chinook in either Iraq or Afghanistan seem be equiped with M240s and not M60s and honestly I believe that there could be lots of US servicemen that can confirm this. Anyway, as I previously said I was ONLY trying to help!
Which part of that do you think I didn't know, and haven't known, for the last two years, since building a Chinook model inside and out by compiling a virtual library of Chinook photos, references, manuals, diagrams, email correspondents (with real life walking talking Chinook pilots) and other assorted details?
Just like the hills, I have eyes. And just like the methods, I have madness. Take a moment to think about why the M60 is a much better asset to have and things become clear. If my hair knew what my brain was thinking I'd shave it off and buy a wig.
P.s Rick mentioned that he needs some help identifying the pointy thing under the nose of the Apache and the green barrel of cheese on top.
Well your Chinook is 1 cm shorter than Ricks and his has 1700 horse power more than yours. Yours doesn't have a door gun nor does it have debris screens so it'd probably stall, crash and burn ... in Afghanistan ... in a computer game.
Which part of that do you think I didn't know, and haven't known, for the last two years, since building a Chinook model inside and out by compiling a virtual library of Chinook photos, references, manuals, diagrams, email correspondents (with real life walking talking Chinook pilots) and other assorted details?
Well, I have the oppinion that nobody knows everything about anything and fool is the one that thinks that way...
Anyway, if I could guess what the rest of mankind knows just by looking into the internet I guess I would be millionare by now and perhaps I could help you financially. And you mentioned that you would use the M60 for the rear ramp of the CH-47 and all I did was to give my oppinion that the M240 made much more sense than the M60 for a realism sake.
Quote:
Just like the hills, I have eyes. And just like the methods, I have madness. Take a moment to think about why the M60 is a much better asset to have and things become clear.
Humm, honestly I can't think of any reason why the M60 could or should be a much better asset to have (than the M240), but please feel free to enlighten me
Sweet Jesus. Seriously, it's not like they are modelling laser cannons instead of the M240. Both the M60 and M240 are gas operated 7.62mm MGs with approximately the same range and characteristics when mounted as they are on the CH47 (and don't piss on about max range and all that, the thing is being fired over ironsights, unstabilised from a moving and elevated platform).
AD I'll still be buying your game regardless. And I sure as hell don't intend on flying the Chinook.
it's a MAG down here too. All aircraft gun position within our tactical helo group are afaik (RNLAF). Whatever you put on the ramp will be fine, i just care about flying the chinook and any other utility/tactical ships that'll turn up over time. I'll leave the attack helo's to others. Will fly co-op as door gunner or loadmaster though, bearing M60, minigun, MAG or a cornpopper should you so choose.
Well, I demand a Chinook-H variant (H as in Hind)! We in Slovakia fly the Chinook-H variant all the time. Yes, the Chinook-H variant is not so sizable as its western counterpart, but it can pack a punch, mind you!
Disclaimer: Bei Beschwerden und Nebenwirkungen fragen Sie Ihren Arzt oder Apotheker...
Sweet Jesus. Seriously, it's not like they are modelling laser cannons instead of the M240. Both the M60 and M240 are gas operated 7.62mm MGs with approximately the same range and characteristics when mounted as they are on the CH47 (and don't piss on about max range and all that, the thing is being fired over ironsights, unstabilised from a moving and elevated platform).
AD I'll still be buying your game regardless. And I sure as hell don't intend on flying the Chinook.
Aside from range and weight there are some important differences between the M240 and the M60. For example;
Sweet Jesus. Seriously, it's not like they are modelling laser cannons instead of the M240. Both the M60 and M240 are gas operated 7.62mm MGs with approximately the same range and characteristics when mounted as they are on the CH47 (and don't piss on about max range and all that, the thing is being fired over ironsights, unstabilised from a moving and elevated platform).
AD I'll still be buying your game regardless. And I sure as hell don't intend on flying the Chinook.
I would even buy the Combat-Helo Chinook DLC (and of course Combat-Helo) even if they modelled laser cannons on it!
Anyway, in my posts I never mentioned that I wouldn't buy the Chinook DLC if it modeled the M60 (instead of the M240) even because like you said and I also mentioned before, both guns (M60 and M240) are quite similar (both are 7,62mm NATO General Purpose Machine Guns) and they even have a similar external shape (at least IMO). But if you want to model a current Aghan-era US Army Chinook and be historically accurate the weapon to model is the M240 and not the M60.
Regarding the modeling of the M60 for reusing it in other helicopters/scenarios part I think there's no need for it since a very gifted and talented modeler that AD definitly is, can reshape a M240 to look like an M60 is a matter of a "couple of hours" but of course only AD can confirm this for sure?
But of course, my vote will also go to Raptor's Mini-Nuke launcher (from Fallout3 - Awesome game BTW!).
My wife wouldn't let me play Fallout 3. Said it's "an evil game".
Did I ever relate the tale of how I fired the CH Apache's 30mm cannon and blew up the entire map? Slight miscalculation in splash damage area resulting in a runaway chain reaction. That slowed the frame rate down I tell you.
Well, I also had the impression that the usual US Army CH-47D weaponry is the M240 for both side front windows and rear ramp (the British and Australian CH-47Ds seem to usually use the Minigun in their front side windows) but I also believe that if needed the US Army Chinooks could easily mount and use the minigun in the front side windows. Besides, I'm pretty sure that I've seen photos of US Army CH-47D (not any MH-47 variant) armed with miniguns in their front side windows. Here's a link where a photo is legended as "M134 Mini-Gun mounted in a CH-47D Chinook helicopter":
But granted, it's not possible (at least at first glance) to see what version of the Chinook is really portraited in that photo since the only part visible of the photo is the Chinook's right front side window.
Anyway, my sugestion (if I'm allowed to) is: -> Allow the player when on the ground and before the mission to equip/arm the front side window mounts (both left and right) of his/hers Chinook where the player could choose between the M134 Minigun and the M240 machine guns, this would be similar to what already happens with the Apache in Combat-Helo and is exactly what happens in Jane's Longbow2 when arming the UH-60 Blackhawk (where the player could also select between the M134 Minigun and the M240 machine guns for the helicopter's side mounted guns). I'm sugesting this because the Chinook variant modeled in Combat-Helo is the CH-47D, right?
Selectable armament on CH and UH helicopter gunner slots sounds like a good idea for DLC down the road. You COULD get really creative and add .50 cals and Mk19 grenade launchers. That's not sarcasm, I've seen those on Air Force Spec Ops helos. However, the Mk19 was on the tail ramp of an MH-53 Pave Low and the .50 cals were mounted in place of the sliding door on a HH-60 Pave Hawk. They were obviously too big to mount on the crew chief doors where the 240's and 60's were normally mounted.
From someone who shoots a M134 on a regular basis your model is starting to look very good! FYI the flash suppressor (round piece at end of barrels) no longer has the slots. Those where used on the old AC systems that could fire at different rates depending on which button was depressed (2000 or 4000 rounds per min). The new DC system which is ran in all the chinooks who carry them fire a standard rate 3000 round per min. Also if you are going to put mini's in the front windows have you considered converting this Chinook into a MH-47G? The 160th SOAR(A) are the only ACFT that carry M134's in the front two windows and they no longer have ramp gunners (stinger mount) they have two large windows cut out on the left and right side and are manned with M240H's. Otherwise it's looking awesome I cannot wait to play this game!
Cheers from a MH-47G flight engineer!
Hi jtrakel,
The plan from the start has been to simulate an original D setup (all analog pit, 60's on the doors and ramp, old style debris filter) as it lightens the load on the programming side (no mpd's) and because we have complete documentation for that model. It's also a great base plate for conversion to British chinooks and earlier variants. Current D models are quite different inside and obviously F's and G's are even more unique. We have discussed the F but before that can happen we need to simulate the modern Rockwell collins common avionics architecture which is a huge amouny of work.
The miniguns are just an additional extra for our chinook but a necessity for a couple if future plans. M60s all round will be the default armament as befitting the now retro pit style.
Australian 47D have M134D fitted in the left and right crew stations. Still running with the ramp-mounted 58 though, would be nice to have an extra station back there.
Not sure about before I arrived in '06 but we've got the DC version, fixed rate (3000 rpm), both batteries mounted on the left side to keep the right crew door clear.
If you're from Lewis I've seen your kangaroo-tagged aircraft!
Was over there on a sim trip and a couple of us are friends with one of your company commanders who showed us around and took us along to a few WONSA activities. I have vague memories of enjoying a fantastic golf day.
We've had some of your FEs on exchange to Aus and they've helped immensely with the introduction of the M134D.
Do you joust in those? (Just looking at that amazing photo above)
What is the purpose and history of that 'cage' attached to the left side of the fuselage? (On right when looking at the photo). I assumed it was some structural part of an antenna array but looks like you can rope off it.
If you send us a squad patch we'll stick it in somewhere.
Do you joust in those? (Just looking at that amazing photo above)
What is the purpose and history of that 'cage' attached to the left side of the fuselage? (On right when looking at the photo). I assumed it was some structural part of an antenna array but looks like you can rope off it.
If I'm not mistaken that's where the MH-47 radar is stored (radar pod). The MH-47 carries a radar that features terrain-following, terrain-avoidance and weather detection modes. But I'm not 100% sure.
@jtrakel,
Excelent photo there, that photo is a strong "candidate" for my next desktop wallpaper Thanks for sharing it!
I guess Flex means the wires running down the entire lenght of the aircraft on the port side, instead of the sensor pod...
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Originally Posted By: Flexman
Do you joust in those? (Just looking at that amazing photo above)
What is the purpose and history of that 'cage' attached to the left side of the fuselage? (On right when looking at the photo). I assumed it was some structural part of an antenna array but looks like you can rope off it.
If I'm not mistaken that's where the MH-47 radar is stored (radar pod). The MH-47 carries a radar that features terrain-following, terrain-avoidance and weather detection modes. But I'm not 100% sure.
@jtrakel,
Excelent photo there, that photo is a strong "candidate" for my next desktop wallpaper Thanks for sharing it!
Cheers, yes I was looking at what you describe as the antenna structure or children's climbing frame (monkey bars). I remember Dave and I having a conversation about its exact purpose.
The knob that broke off in re my post below can be seen in this picture. It is on the right-hand side of the overhead panel, on the right-hand overhead panel section nearest the windshield. It's the one next to the switch with the big red safety cover at the top of that panel section. The pilot in the right-hand seat is the one that broke it off.
That wouldn't happen to be the FADEC knob, I hope.
Miao, Cat
Originally Posted By: Cat
Having ridden in the CH-47 several times back in the '80s, that looks very familiar to me.
I remember one ride where the copilot turned a knob on the overhead panel and it broke off in his hand. It must have been important, because the crew chief ran up front in a real hurry.
We were practicing the art of helocasting, something MPs are not known for, at the time. So I jumped out about a minute later and I have no clue what happened to the Chinook after that....
Not entirely sure which knob you're talking about so I'll give you a few and hopefully catch the one you mean.
A - Circular knob which rotates left/right and sprung loaded to center is the pilot control for 'hoist in/out', that's the old winch/hoist which comes out of the right side heater closet and can be rigged to winch through the center hatch, not the newer external hoist you see mounted outside the right crew station.
B - 5 position knob to select which cargo hooks (fwd, center, aft, tandem, all) are opened when the cargo release is activated.
C - 3 position switch (off, on, emerg) to enable hydraulic power to the rear cargo ramp or enable the emergency pilot ramp controls on the same panel.
D - The actual FADEC control panel forward of the ECLs.
If your ride was in the 80s I'm guessing the aircraft was fitted with the older 712 engines which didn't have FADEC, Can't remember what switches were in front of the ECLs where the FADEC panel is now, it's been a while.
Sorry for such a delayed response but yes that long cage is in fact the HF antenna has not changed from the D,E,F,or G the pod would be the Multi-mode Radar (MMR Pod) it's a pieace of CRAP! Always fails
Durn it, I guess another high end computer is in my future!
A new gunship AND a realistic Chinook in a combat simulator?!!?
Oh yea, count me in! I want to do SF insertion missions, Med-Evac missions, you name it I'll haul it! And if I need a break I'll just bust some tanks for a change of pace, before flying heavy lift!
Anyone else see the docu from Ch4 in the UK the other day? "Fighting on the Frontlines - Helicopters". Covered the missions of both Brit Apaches and Chinooks, the former doing recon/hunter/killer on Taliban IED teams, the latter going to pick up the men injurted by the IED's...many cockpit and helmet cams in high resolution.
I liked that video as well, although I would question the decision to land the Chinook so close to the "enemy" vehicle. If it were laden with explosives, it could have easily ruined the -47 crew's day, not to mention all the soldiers inside.
Of course, I don't speak Dutch(?), so I may have missed the purpose of that exercise entirely, if so, color me embarrassed.
... may have missed the purpose of that exercise entirely,...
It's indeed Dutch. The exercise was to block the vehicle and capture four important figures. Since people "high-up" have others brainwashed to blow themselves up, there was probably a very low chance of active explosives. Grenades would have been a possibility though.
Not entirely sure which knob you're talking about so I'll give you a few and hopefully catch the one you mean.
A - Circular knob which rotates left/right and sprung loaded to center is the pilot control for 'hoist in/out', that's the old winch/hoist which comes out of the right side heater closet and can be rigged to winch through the center hatch, not the newer external hoist you see mounted outside the right crew station.
B - 5 position knob to select which cargo hooks (fwd, center, aft, tandem, all) are opened when the cargo release is activated.
C - 3 position switch (off, on, emerg) to enable hydraulic power to the rear cargo ramp or enable the emergency pilot ramp controls on the same panel.
D - The actual FADEC control panel forward of the ECLs.
If your ride was in the 80s I'm guessing the aircraft was fitted with the older 712 engines which didn't have FADEC, Can't remember what switches were in front of the ECLs where the FADEC panel is now, it's been a while.
Cheers,
- Horsey
Hey, that makes sense! It would have been "C" that came off, now that I think about it. We were helocasting off the back ramp and the right-hand pilot broke that knob off right after they dropped the ramp when we were approaching the drop zone.
Thanks! I've always wondered what that control did.
We've seen apache gameplay vids, can you make one with chinook?
Currently the Chinook is not a flyable aircraft. The Longbow is the priority (obviously) but once the Target Range is out there the Chinook will begin to move up the priority ladder.
or i cant buy it!!!
(in a positive way). YOUR work is fantastic. Its like Christmas. Every time i come here to see whats new BANG!! It hits me like an Apache.
