Weeee!!! The Red Baron!

Finally!









The Albatros D.III has been released! One of my favourite planes of WW1. Beautiful and a joy to fly.

She's lovely isnt she?

Wonderful to fly, fantastic visibilty, Awesome skins...whats there not to like?

That skin looks odd on that model.

It does? I think it looks awesome.

I haven't (yet) bought the Pfaltz D.IIIa because it looks like nearly the same plane as the Albatros D.Va. Now here's the Albatros D.III. To my untrained eye, it again looks like nearly the same plane. Is there really enough difference in flying them to make it worth having all three? Or is it mostly about historical accuracy/completeness?

I have all the other planes, because they are different in how they fly.

Just same feelings than me

Kankkis

It does fly differently than the DVa. Its feels a lot lighter and climbs far better. It also looks quite distinct with its flat sided fusalage. The DVa was my plane of choice, now I think I have a new one.

The Pfalz doesnt seem as agile as the DVa, its a slightly better climber but excels in the dive. Many feel its superiour to the DVa in terms of handling, although I'm not one of them.

All three are quite different. Its just a case of knowing the diffences I guess.

Essentally all the german planes are "turn fighters" and all the allied planes are fast.

Doesnt make them similar

I agree with Squid. I've only flown the D.III for a very limited time yet, but since I've spent a lot of hours in the D.V I certainly have noticed some differences.

The reason the Richthofen skin looks odd is because Richthofen's Le Petit Rouge Albatros D.III, which this purports to be, was NOT an OAW version, as neoqb has released. MvR scored ZERO victories flying an OAW Albatros D.III. The skin on this airplane is 100% bogus and historically inaccurate.

Ironically, I always screamed that flight sims get the Albatros logo backwards. neoqb got the logo correctly oriented, they just got the entire rudder wrong. For this skin, that is.

Whole thing is phoney as the day is long, if one cares about historical accuracy. For the Crimson Skies minded, it's great.

Geek alert!

Geek = learned. Guilty as charged.

I am not afraid to say the emperor isn't wearing any clothes. neoqb is either lying with their marketing (Rise of Hype) or historically ignorant regarding First World War aviation (which can be fixed). It's either A or B.

I think you're slowly crossing the line from constructive criticism to insults here.


Oh well, hopeless...

Meh. I'm out of here. Need to fly that D.III a bit more and enjoy my Crimson Skies.

Geek = Learned....maybe

However the general tone suggests some sort of malicious intent on NEOQB's part and that players enjoying RoF are in someway not worthy.

Geek Alert doesn't quite cover it

I have only one question: is it a fair opponent for the N17 or is it an afternoon snack for the SPAD and SE5a?

JFM, I'm part of the Comic Book or Hollywood Movie crowd, not the Crimson Skies crowd, and draw great offense.

My membership to the Historically Fuzzy Society is also paid up in full for the next three years.

Please modify your post to correct this oversight.

Or, as punishment, I shall make missions where every single DR1 is sporting a solid red paint scheme when they arrive to Rise of Flight. Not only that, I have software to take many screen captures of them and a dedicated server by which I will spread them far and wide over the Internet, attributing yourself as the author.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

No, IMHO DIII is better than DVa.

Hello,

Malicious intent? I don't know. The obvious "malicious" part would be to hype more sales because a Richthofen Johannisthal-skinned OAW D.III is visually sexier than a mostly plain Jasta 10 OAW-skinned OAW .

Players enjoying ROF being unworthy? That was your interpretation entirely and not part of anything I wrote, so I cannot comment on that further.

"Ignorant" is not an insult; I can come up with a damn sight better insult than that. It's an adjective that describes when one lacks knowledge or comprehension of something specified. In this case, the correct model of D.III flown in Bloody April. Suggesting somebody doesn't know something, after his actions have revealed this may be the case, is not an insult. School teachers do it everyday; are they insulting the students? Ignorance is also a condition that, as I wrote in my last post, can be corrected. Ignorance itself isn't "bad." It only becomes deplorable when the revealed ignorance is uncorrected.

It's simple: Either neoqb knew their D.III was not the one flown in Bloody April and marketed it that way anyway, or else they didn't know better. My illumination of this is neither an insult nor intended to be one. My only motivation is historical accuracy and toward that end, this release is an egregious failure. That's all.

It'll be interesting to see when they model planes actually flown in Bloody April besides the N.17 (FE8, SPAD VII, Sopwith Triplane, FE2, F2a, not mention the two-seater arty/obs planes that are somewhere over the extremely distant horizon). I guess we'll just wheel around in the tarted-up OAW Alb D.III with the 180 hp engine. Maybe they will finally model the actual D.III that this release pretends to be? Time will tell.

Meanwhile, by all means, buy the OAW D.III--I did! Go fly it with the bogus skins and enjoy! Seriously. If you've read this much then you are now aware of the historical errors and my job is done.

JFM,

The Emperor's clothes are beautiful.

Resitance it futile.

You will be assimilated.

Help! Help!

I must agree with JFM here, they obviously set out to create one of the most relistic ww1 simulators to date, and for me that is exactly what they have done so far. but then to release a plane that is historically incorrect is a little strange, i'm sure they know exactly the history of MvR's aircraft.

Ohhh well i won't lose any sleep, but i hope they correct this in the future and keep to the facts.

The skins aren't a big issue but I do agree with JFM, mostly because Neoqb have been happy to big up the historical accuracy of their product.

It would seem you would consider those that aren't outraged that they decided to release a non historical skin as Crimson Slies Minded.
I'm not outraged, nor do I think NEOQB are turning me over, selling me a flawed concept.
But neither am I a Crimson Skies Minded simmer.

I thought the Crimson Skies comment was a damned sight better, for example! There's the double entendre of console kiddy games and a red skin!



Folks, let's simmer down, okay?

JFM educated us that while MvR did fly a DIII, it wasn't that model of DIII, so the skin is in the "bzzzzttt, wrong answer" category when compared precisely to history.

There is no need to bash Crimson Skies. It was a really good game albeit no sim. I also see no sin in enjoying both RoF and Crimson Skies.

And I will proudly stand here as the lone supporter of Crimson Skies!

I played that game for untold hours and thoroughly enjoyed it! Consider that to be some sort of "insult" if you care to, however I'd play it now if there was a version that ran on contemporary computers.

It was genuinely fun, which shouldn't be a crime.

[edit]
High five, FiveDigits!
[/edit]

Hedgehog i still have the original Crimson Skies in my cd case in perfect condition..

I think CS was my first real internet gaming experience, bloody hours of fun

EDIT: this may be of interest to you Hedgehog: http://www.gamershell.com/news_43955.html

I'm simmered, Dart! Never wasn't.

Just to be clear: I never "bashed" Crimson Skies or its fans and did not use it as an "insult." Neither did I intend to. Others may have, I don't know, but I didn't. I only referenced that game in a flippant and absurd comparison intended to illustrate a lack of historical accuracy. That's all. I am an up front, black and white guy; the only thing that you'll read between my lines is what you put there.

My intent was to show that the emperor is not wearing any clothes; I've done that. It's not my fault he isn't and it is neither wrong nor insulting to point it out. Neither is it wrong for people to fly around in mis-skinned D.IIIs! That's great, have fun! I'm serious. Hell, I bought the plane and I knew all the skins were going to be bogus. I'm neither upset nor outraged at what others fly on their computers. Such concern misses the point.

JFM, what you meant was pretty clear. But it's only a PC game, so calm down.

Cheers,

RD.

Right with you, RD. Am calm; always have been.

I hear ya, JFM. You are on the mark regarding lack of historical accuracy in a sim that promotes itself as such. (I'm not claiming to personally know the difference between a D.VII and a B-737, but that's part of why I fly the sims. I like learning about the aircraft from the driver's seat.)

That said, neoqb could take a lesson from Crimson Skies. CS was everything that RoF isn't.

RoF: 'roughly' historically accurate, if not perfectly so.
CS: didn't even try. All planes were made-up, with cool weapons.

RoF: Extremely accurate flight model (although debates still rage).
CS: didn't even try. Saw the laws of physics and aerodynamics as more guidelines than laws.

RoF: Environment: dead as a doornail. Like post-nuclear dead. Absolute deadness. As in no life.
CS: Stuff was always happening in the environment. Other planes flying around, cars driving around on the ground, etc.

RoF: Career missions? Repetitive and redundant. Did I mention repetitive? No, that would be redundant. Like the career missions in RoF.
CS: Career Missions? Exciting and varied! You had to do stuff, like find the moving train, fly down and directly over it, drop a ladder to rescue the guy. Fly back to your airship and "land" by connecting with the hook as it pulled you inside. Fun!

RoF: Multi-player: the jury is still out.
CS: multi-player? Only tried it a few times, but I seem to remember it was fun.

Okay, I can't beleive I'm actually comparing a SIM (RoF) with a flight GAME (CS), but there is a message here. If RoF could somehow extract the fun elements of CS and apply them to a high fedelity sim, now we'd really have something!

Ok then, been out to the pub and just read all through this, so just why did NEOQB release a 'Red Baron skin' for an aircraft variant he didn't fly?
Are they

1. ... inept?
2. ... suffering from the normal Russian-English translation failure?
3. ... reading the wrong books?
4. ... trying to cash in and generate more sales?
5. ... taking the piss?

5. No.
1. Unlikely.
3. Surely not?
2. Possible.
4. Well, this is the only one left.

Thanks, Grale!

If somebody was to actually take that ball and run with it, I'd stand in line to buy an updated version!

Just played "russian roulette" with the Alb DIII. Did better than ever. Guns jammed a lot. This will be my choice of plane until the Dr1 comes out and even then...

The default skin isn't MFR which may be small consolation. I do hope the standard version DIII is made available and it would be nice (but unlikely) if they release the standard version for free to those who've bought the OAW DIII.

Does the default skin have green/mauve camo on it, divided spanwise on the horizontal stabilizers? I can't remember, but they had a picture of that up when I bought it. Looked great. If so, that'd be an OAW skin.

It isn't just Richthofen's skin. The others, at least the "early D.III," Udet, Voss, and Bertrab, are all incorret skins for an OAW Albatros (I believe there were other skins but I can't remember them and won't be able to fire up the sim until later, so I cannot say every skin is off, just most of them). Still, they've had incorrect D.Va skins since the D.Va has been available, so this is nothing new. Plus, HH's funny post reminds us there is work to be done in many areas.

K-S, I had hoped that when you selected a Johannisthal skin, the Johannisthal version would appear in the museum!

Okay, so the OAW D.III is here, as is. Any takers as to why they didn't just release the Johannisthal (straight tailed) version? I mean, they marketed the OAW that way, and they made (most if not) all the skins that way. Why not just make that version, then? That's what's so Metallic-Pea-Family-Truckster-instead-of-the-Antarctic-Blue-Sports-Wagon odd to me. Would it be that, being that the OAW Alb was closer to the D.V than the Johannisthal Alb, it was easier to just make make a slab-sided D.V and be done with it, rather than change the tail/weight/engine/horsepower/fms for the Johannisthal version?

Sounds like RoF has descended into the arcade with the release of the Alb D3, according to some comments on this thread.

Granted many of the skins do not match the model (the default skin, the 2 colour camo is correct however), but the model looks correct as a late version Alb D3 (engine, spinner, radiator, rudder) which it clearly is intended to depict. The skins seem reasonably accurate to me, albeit some are for the earlier version. It's the matching of skins and model that has some concerned.

Doesn't seem such a major crime to me, though I can understand purists may want everything perfectly correct immediately. But it may just suggets that they will at some point release (preferably make available for free) an earlier version of this important model - the skins will fit except for the rudder as (I think) the fuselage and wings were the same for different models.

More generally, purists will have a field day in the future in any case - if they want. It is impossible to model the exact aircraft and have it available ONLY for the period it was used, unless RoF develop several models of the same plane. For example, Rof would need to have 3 versions of the Brisfit to accurately portray the versions in service thoughout the April 1917 - Nov 1918 period. Does anyone seriously think they are going to do three, or alternately, limit the period the one model of the aircraft is available for campaigns or missions to their real service dates, and skins.

This has always been a difficulty for all WW1 sims, from a purist's point of view. It always will be. Does it make that much difference? Maybe in some cases, but give them some time to get more models and/or skins out.

JFM, I do agree with you but I can live with the skins. What gets me more is the "Award" that comes with the plane (an looks like a manufacturers plate) says it is a Johannisthal, and the tail says OAW.

Well definitely learned.

But here`s for hoping he stays, because, you know:
I wish everyone settled down and heard each other`s opinions, before bashing away, many of the 2-3 time posters are people who might know a lot about ww1 flying, some of us has questionable knowledge in comparison, whatever the definition on these people might be (Geek, Nerd, etc, scholars I call them.) they still (As always.) remains a true benefit for us even if they sometimes can have a bit of trouble formulating their observations without looking like they insult neoqb? Hopefully no offense caused because no offense was meant

Just purchased the DIII.

Can someone confirm that the default cockpit view is slightly off-center on the DIII? It seems like the default cockpit view is shifted slightly to the left.

Thanks.

It was shifted to the left for me as well. I just moved my seat to center, and hit F10.

It's all about passion innit. The WW1 community has it in spades. Long may the community reign in their niche of choice. But one day .... one day ... we will rise to exalted heights and the disbelievers will finally see the light and bow in our presence as we dispense wisdom and the secret inner workings of the interrupter gear and rotary engine.

This is not a time to fight. This is a time to rejoice and unite as one .... for only then may we dominate the infidels and create a new world order !

Erm .. pass the bong will you Ming ....

Roger that. Thanks for the confirmation Bleddyn.

I only get annoyed at that sort of thing when the option to get it right exists. In this case we have an Alb D.III but the wrong type. One does what one can with the tools at hand.

In my WFP patch I created the option for all aces to survive the war (unless killed in the game). Want to know what Boelcke's Fokker D.VII looks like .

I don't think it is an arcade game, but it certainly seems to be leaning way more towards a work of FICTION than Non-FICTION. I am beginning to wonder if Neocube is going to start calling ROF a "World War I movie simulator" or "A Flight simulation based on the drama by..." Geez go ahead and "choose your favorite movie character and fly a plane based on the replica flown by George Peppard!" Who do you want to be today? Waldo Pepper? Maybe Willie Von Klugermann or Bruno Stachel? Notice I said plane based on a replica? Maybe Neocube will soon have a Tiger Moth in the game or one of those generic two seater observation planes like were in the movie "The Blue Max"

The wrong type, how so? Some of the skins are incorrect for the model, that's all, AFAIK.

If we had an expert on Fokker D7's I'd be willing to bet that some of the skins are not entirely correct for the Mercedes 180Hp type we have as well. There were three distinct engine versions.

And an RFC N17 with Vickers? My guess is if that existed, it was quite rare.

I'm not being critical of RoF, nor am defending it, just pointing out all this is tricky, especially in the early stages of a product, and ALL WW1 flight sims I have played have similar issues, in one way or another.

Personally from a realism perspective, I'm more concerned about not needing to reload the Lewis .

Have you played many other WW1 sims flakwagon, and have detailed knowledge of WW1 planes, skins and performance? I think you'd find, as I have, that all the WW1 games make allowances, not based on whether they would necessarily like to veer towards fiction or non fiction, but due to game engine limitations, cost and time.

RoF is certainly currently constrained by the last two.

You ain't seen nothing yet.

Hint:



Edit:

From the "Kitty in the Ring" squadron:

Dart, is that skin on the right Bf version?

If so, where do I get it?

The current OAW DIII is a contemporary to the existing DVa, although it seems to be 'sold' as something vaguely related to the other DIII from a year before.

This is like having cannon armed Spitfire V standing in for the BOB Spitfire I... or having Alison engined P51A flying escort for B17s over Germany in 1945 instead of the more appropriately engined P51B or P51D.

Whether this matters is a choice for each individual, but IMO it does undermine the neocube claims for accuracy and attention to detail (to join the list including no Aldis sights, no adjustable trim setting in SE5a - and an inappropriate default trim in the absence of pilot control etc.)

LOL, it's CannonUK's skin for the Emil, but fits okay on most of the 109's.

http://www.darts-page.com/files/Bf109E4_Girly.bmp

The Kitty in the Ring is my own creation.

[edit]

I think neoqb is in a bad spot: release the earlier model (in which the skins would be correct) and get knocked for not releasing the one we have (for a zillion reasons), or release the one we have without incorrect skins and have to explain a zillion times why they aren't included.

But my book says MvR flew in an Alby DIII! You guys are so wrong!"

There would not have been a great deal of difference between the two models in terms of performance. Slightly larger engine offset by increased weight. The difference probably was that it was more structurally sound, I don't believe any OAWs lost their lower wings as the earlier versions (could be wrong). It is not solely a 1918 plane, the OAW probably started appearing in July/August 1917, so not far off the 160hp version (Jan 1917).

The OAW fits in better with the other planes RoF have done. The N17 is an exception of course, like a sore thumb at this stage.

Bleddyn, you are right! Just saw the "award."

I agree, intramile, that the OAW is a better fit with the other ROF planes. Still, a bit midway barker to hook sales with Bloody April melodrama, IMO. That, and claiming Boelcke flew a D.III, as advertised over at the ROF site. He died two months before Jasta 2 received their first Johannisthal Alb D.III.

neoqb has their hands full! The Albatros D is an involved airplane: D.I, D.II, D.III, D.III (OAW), D.V, D.Va, D.Va (OAW). The D.I and D.II were concurrent, and some D.IIs had the ear radiators and some had the airfoil radiators. The D.III had 160 and 175 hp versions, as well as relocated radiators and footsteps changed from rounded to square. The D.V has 175 and 180 hp versions, with changes in exposed engine features (air pumps, rocker arms, etc). D.Va's eventually had the 200 hp Mercedes D-IIIaü. Some planes have the aux strut, some do not. Camouflage changed throughout the series, too, moving from olive green/venetian red/pale green (which had several different patterns and color arrangements) to removing the venetian to switching to dark green/mauve and then incorporating printed irregular polygon fabric, along with the brief silver versions within all that. Not to mention props made by Axial, Garuda, and Heine, at least. There's a lot going on with the Alb Ds! neoqb'll either do them right or half-ass them; time will tell.

So far, despite the weirdness of this release, generally I'm happy with the Albatros. It's mostly what I've flown. Took up the OAW earlier and really enjoyed flying it. Default skin, natch.

I agree JFM, selling is an element here. As Dart stated, anybody that sees a Alb d3 wants MvRs.

Like you, I'm looking forward to the Albatros series. People have mentioned Dh2s vs Fokker E3s, which is great, but even better IMO, is Alb D1s/D2s versus all the late 1916 allied stuff.

RoF have done some Italian skins, and it would be really interesting if they eventually deliver more on this, like the Alps and campaigns, and with more Austrian Hungarian versions of Albs too.

The Albatros D3 is a great FM, more gritty and nimble than the Dv. It and the Se5a are my favourites so far.

Hedgehog, I'd say the reason to get the DIII is to have a historical opponent for the Nieuport17

I think that's a great reason to get it then!

And even better when/if any missions are created (MP or SP) that actually try to match the appropriate planes against each other!

From what I've seen so far, there's been no attempt yet to do this. In the MP servers, it's mostly a mix of all planes made available. While I appreciate the challenge of picking the earlier planes in MP, it's pretty much a suicide gesture. You have to select the most capable plane you can jump into if you want to live past the first merge. (To be sure, it really doesn't matter in my case. I am always the first one shot down in MP no matter what plane I pick, so I am not a good measuring stick.)

I would really look forward to some historically accurate career missions where you only face enemy aircraft that are an appropriate match (in capability and in historical timeline) for what you're flying.

Sorry Sturm_Tiger, but id have to say the DIII would eat the N17 for breakfast. Even the original one, and not just the OAW we have.

With the execption of the N17 (which is a 1916 plane and practically obsolete given the time frame of the other aircraft) the other planes are a perfect match historically.

That doesnt mean they are matched in terms of fairness or performance. The Entente planes tend to dominate, and thats just how it should be.

I tend just to fly the german side, and whilst a challenge, I would say its much more about individual skill than what plane you are flying. Again just how it should be.

As time goes on an we get more aircraft availible, you will see the tide of dominance ebb and flow, and this is just how it was back then.

Its upto the mission designer to decide on what he wants to represent. I am a fan of historical accuracy, so Id like to see comtempary fighters together on missions.

The servers you see out there today include all the planes to allow all players to particpate regardless of what planes they have bought.

Haha, that beats my 109 I flew in IL2, but just barely. The main 109 I flew was red white and blue, stars and stripes with a big American flag on the bottom.

I had some other gaudy ones, but the stars and stripes was the brightest.

If you want to fly a historical single player campaign, then I could understand wanting everything correct. But soon as people can easily edit the skins, you will be seeing hello kitty Spads flying against Stars and Stripes Fokkers and so on.

The main stuff I care about is being able to fly online, with many online options, and a good flight/damage model. I can't wait until multiplayer is expanded and for editable skins. I want my stars and stripes Dr1!!!
Also lots of bright blue BlueRaven skins!

Oh, I forgot to mention, even my pilot in IL2 had a bright red white and blue jumpsuit.

I am not against non historic skins as long as they dont try to play the fallacies off as fact.

I cant wait to have custom skin in MP with a dogfighter server. That was one thing I LOVE about IL-2. You always ran into an interesting skin.

I think the problem is releasing incorrect skins attributed directly to a particular pilot, also releasing facts about the aircraft that are clearly wrong.

I don't class myself as a purist but that does grate a bit. With Neoqb's previous statements I think its fair for them to expect people to flag incorrect historical detail.

Geez! All this, over the fact that the airplane has it's radiator a little to the right, instead of centered!
Who cares! When it's sitting on my tail putting holes in my rudder, I'm not going to be looking at that. I'm going to be seeing the two little blinking lights that are pointing at my face!
(Notice the defeatist attitude, here. I didn't say that I'm not going to notice while I'm putting holes in HIS rudder.)
While I do understand about the whole "Neoqb"s historical policy", thing, I also realize that there are so many other things I'd rather have fixed.
Damn the torpedoes and critics, full speed ahead with the Richtofen skins.

I am with JFM here, though not with his vehemence, but heck, he wrote a BOOK about richthofens planes and paintschemes! They ought to have made both models and I hope the other one will come soon, and for no extra price for those who already bought the D.III.

No, seriously, get us a D.III that is a somewhat even match for the N17.

Having learned of the distinction between the OAW and regular version (I was blissfully ignorant until last month), it bugs me as well. I of course bought it, as I will all of the planes. I imagine they didnt even realize the difference until it was way too late in development, and hopefully they will see the reaction and make the other version down the road.

OT: Is the "Red Baron" movie ever going to get released in the USA?

We knew about MvR had Albatros built D.III (as well as Voss had), but the question is, does someone need an 160hp version D.III Albatros with different rudder? Who will buy an underpowered version just for the correct skin (yes - we need to sell airplanes to stay alive).
I like historical accuracy too, and im for it, but what im gonna say to head managemet?
Same story about early Fokker D.VII`s - do we need an different engine covers versions (early Fokker D.VIIs) just to be 100% accurate here, or we can live with it for now?
Maybe its better to spent some time to get more other planetypes before?
Maybe in the feature, we will be able to modify airplane with one airframe (different engine + visual details with same airframe), but we cant do it now - we need to live with this kind of compromises (and only this feature will show what we can).

I mean - its better to have this kind of MvR skin than not to have it at all?

Not to have it at all. After all, you're not going to release a Camel skin for Albert Ball are you?


Some will, some won't but if you want to have the Red Baron's aircraft as a selling point for the sim then yes, you SHOULD have released the earlier version and not the later. Then this point would be moot.


So you are not planning to model the RFC version of the N.17, with the wing-mounted Vickers then? It was rather important in it's time.

Please, can you let us know your aims for RoF? Will it be a willy-nilly scattering of aircraft from all over the war, or will there be able to be meaningful scenarios with the correct aircraft for a particular time period? Can you say - 'we are doing 1st January 1918 onwards' for example?

To be honest I would rather more time be spent on making all the different variations of a plane than making a new plane. Right now the game lacks the ability to match planes up. With more variants of the different planes it will be easier for mission builders to properly match planes up as well as make more historically accurate planes. Plus it cant be as hard to make a new variant on the fokker dvii that you already have working models for than it would be to create a new plane from scratch.

Its like giving a wwii player the me109g-14 and skinning it with a Battle of Britian skin and then telling them that it makes no sense to make the me109e because it is inferior to the G-series all the while matching it up with Spitfire mkIs (that is an exaggeration just to prove a point.)

I can see the logic of doing it both ways but at the same time I prefer the other way than the way it is being done.

That is also not the say I am unhappy. I am enjoying the sim immensely and will continue to do so no matter what direction you go with plane selection.

But its an underpowered version that fits into an early 1917 planeset. Using that logic why would anyone buy an aircraft other then the uber planes of summer 1918, there's more to flight simming than deathmatch dofight servers. I didn't need the NP17 but I've still bought it.

Add a shopping basket to your plane shop Viks, I bet sales will go up. At the moment re-entering your card details over and over is just too much faffing around.

I reckon just remove the MvR skin in the next patch, to keep the pedantry down. The open custom skins in the following patch and then we'll see all sorts of user made abhorations out there.

Hello, all,

Many are looking at this right to left, IMO. It's not about the skin, it's about the plane. Viks, you made Johannisthal skins, a Johannisthal purchase-award, advertised the plane with events and pilots that involved Johannisthal Albs, and then released an OAW. Why not release the Johannisthal build? That's what you were advertising. They would have had the same skins so you still would have had the same eye candy and hype, but that eye candy and hype would have been based on history.

Who will buy an underpowered version just for the correct skin? Again, right to left. It's about the plane. Early Johannisthal Albs were not underpowered at 160 hp; they just weren't as powered as later Albs. "Underpowered" suggests they hadn't the thrust necessary to sustain useful flight and purpose, and history shows even the first production batch D.IIIs flew like hawks (hawks that lost their wings from time to time, yes, but that had nothing to do with the engine) for the job they had to do. Understand, I love the OAW D.III, but frankly it was disingenuous to tart it up and hype it as different version.

The irony is that you didn't release the Johannisthal version because you didn't think anyone would want an "underpowered" Albatros. Now, when/if you actually do release a Johannisthal version, who is going to want to buy "the same" Albatros with less power? (Besides me, of course!) Now, run it the other way: release the Johannisthal version first, THEN later you release the improved/more powerful OAW version. It would have been an upgrade that way.

Same story about early Fokker D.VII`s - do we need an different engine covers versions (early Fokker D.VIIs) just to be 100% accurate here, Yes.

or we can live with it for now? For now.

Maybe its better to spent some time to get more other planetypes before? Yes, two-seaters, even if AI. The sim is woefully anemic in this regard.

Maybe in the feature, we will be able to modify airplane with one airframe (different engine + visual details with same airframe), Good. If you make a plane that so-and-so flew, it ought to look like so-and-so's airplane. I understand you cannot do this immediately, but these airplanes had many different variations and ought to reflect such via software sold as a simulation.

I mean - its better to have this kind of MvR skin than not to have it at all? It's better to have Richthofen's plane--and Voss's, and Udet's, and Betrab's, etc. Why not put Erich Hartmann's skin on the OAW? His 109s looked awesome and he had as many victories in an OAW Alb D.III as Richthofen did. For the OAW Albs, Wüsthoff and Löwenhardt (Germany's third ranking ace, after all) would have made excellent OAW skins.

Viks, I understand your business situation and need to eat but, in retrospect, perhaps releasing a different airplane would have been prudent. (I concede you may not have been able to; I don't know. I am ignorant of anything behind the scenes there.) Where's the Dr.I? It's been around forever and that thing is a guaranteed money-maker. (My rampant-speculation-based-on-nothing is the Dr.I and the Camel are being saved for Christmas).

In the end, love the sim, Viks. Looking forward to (*cough* the Gotha *cough*) its continued development. If I didn't care I wouldn't have uttered a sound.

(I just reread all that and smiled. You'd think I was discussing actual aircraft production or something. LOL I recognize this is just a fun little hobby.)

Jorgen, thank you for your very kind words. I appreciate them and am glad you've enjoyed the book; thank you for buying it. Alas, there are a couple errors. I'm logging them to post an online erratum/corrigendum, but a couple off the top of my head are:

1. Page 26, first paragraph. Idflieg underwrote the first D.III production contract in October 1916, not October 1917.

2. P.48, top left photo. That Dr.I is 114/17, not 144/17.

Yes, locating MvR's emergency landing field in 2004 was a great experience but for all my planning I could not believe my eyes when I got to Comines and saw how tall the corn was! Same at Marckebeke. I'll admit it never dawned on me that there'd even be corn planted at these locations. At least MvR's Eindecker crash site and KiA fields were plowed and well visible (there is a small sawmill at the Eindecker location that clutters things but the grounds were accessible, and they gave me permission to prowl around).

BTW, I would love to have 300 landings a year again! Taking care of little ones has dampened that considerably for now.

Hello =FB=VikS,

i also noticed the model of the D.III is not quite correct. Why did you not just model the first original Johannisthal version of the D.III with its early engine and fitting fin sans the later Red Baron skin version ?
I think all those basic planes should be there in correct dress, and foremost in form.
You packed the Nieuport into the sim, the original early D.III would have been the perfect adversary, if not a D.II which served long into the war parallel to the D.III. No big deal (i hope) but i would wish you correct this D.III-wise, maybe later ok.
If you're in for the Red Baron skins i wonder how much people know what he flew apart from this friggin' boring triplane, which then should have appeared first. Bring out the Camel and the Fokker tripe, and 90 percent will think the sim is complete (no i didn't say this LOL).

It is said the sim is to model the times from 1917 on, but it is now a very mixed one - some late 1918 planes for AI, and a Nieuport - so just keep the whole plane thing as correct as possible. With the existing flight model modifications you can sell a Johannisthal-built Alb. D.III separately from an OAW one. I would buy both, or even more field-modified ones if they fit to their squadrons - maybe a bit cheaper per different type (?).
I know you are tight, and have to justify all you do to the "greedy managers", but if you stay straight and do every model with your painstakingly detail as it shimmers through now, this sim will develop into a first-class simulation that has more than some 10 years of existance ahead.

Whatever, thanks for your direct reply here,
Catfish

Interesting thread. For what it's worth, nice to hear VikS point-of-view.

I want neoqb to make us an official Red Baron skin for the Noop 28.

I have recovered a piece of lost evidence which tells the real story of von Richthofen and proves that he was not actually killed but rather captured by the Allies.

Knowing full well that Germany was about to lose the war, he was given the opportunity to fly undercover for the Americans, an offer which he accepted. This saw him reunited with an old friend of his, another German baron flying undercover for the Allies: Freiherr Eberhard von Richenbächer — better known as Eddie Rickenbacker.

Manfred von Richthofen (henceforth known under the pseudonym of Manuel Esteban Javier Ricardo, supposedly an American of Mexican descent) never quite attained his former level of flying expertise in his all-red Nieuport 28, although he must be given credit for actually teaching Rickenbacker everything he had to know to become a top ace like him — and all of this in a crash course of only one week. As you all know, Richthofen was shot down (well, captured) on April 21 — whereas Rickenbacker scored his first victory on April 29.

Some say Richthofen and Rickenbacker are actually one and the same person. Those are obviously wild and baseless speculations and should in no way divert us from the actual story of Manfred.

After the war, he settled in Belgium in the picturesque town of Bruges where he opened a small yet somewhat successful confectionery shop (aptly named Ricardo's Confectionery Shop) along with his lovely Belgian wife, Henriette.

He died unexpectedly in June 1926 of chocolate-induced liver failure.

Oh, man, what a howl!

What kind of nonsense is this? If you don't like the skin, then just don't use it. Simple. Problem solved. There is no reason to cry about something that's there which is optional to use. After all, autopilot, warmed up engine, time compression, icons yadda are all optional....should they get rid of those too? Give me a break.

In Bruges ... when you go to Hell, you really end up in Bruges

Viks, would it be terribly difficult for the team to make the small graphic adjustments to the present D.III model and equip it with a less powerful engine and release it? - What do I know, maybe it would... But I think not, since the cockpit could be the same, from what I know.

Better yet, maybe a 3rd party volunteer could do it in his or her free time? I seem to recall that you had third party people working with the sim tools... The Siemens-Schuckert fighter we saw a model of years back.

I think easier for them would be to just remove MvR, Voss, etc skins and replace them with others. All this discussion would then be pointless

OK.

Its a bit like releasing a Mk14 Spit with Battle of Britain skins, then saying well its still a Spitfire, also adding hero of the Battle of Britain in your history file for the Mk14 and suggesting it was flown by BOB pilots.

The incorrect aircraft description makes it appear that Neoqb aren't aware of the history of the aircraft, from Vik's post they are aware but are so desperate for sales that they'll post incorrect details just to slip in a MVR link.

I just don't want Neoqb to go down this don't care route.

Hello,

To me it's not so much the skins but about the plane and the overall misrepresentation of its sale. From reading various posts and threads it's clear that many didn't even know there were different D.III variants; there's nothing wrong with this. The Albatros Ds did come in a host of variants and I understand that to know the differences may be Cliff Clavin minutia to many. People just saw a red Albatros in the video, read that it was used by Richthofen, associated the two with the near-century-old legend, trusted neoqb had made the proper plane, and then bought it. Now they have a plane they've learned wasn't in Bloody April and not flown by the pilots advertised (Strähle flew an OAW, however, but Boelcke died two months before the Johannisthal D.III arrived at Jasta B) but if they overlook the many but subtle differences, at least they have the skins that helped lure them into the sale in the first place. I can't speak for everyone but I'll speculate that many would not be happy if the MvR/Voss/Udet/Bertrab/Early D.III skins were then yanked from the OAW. neoqb used those skins to sell the plane; if they were gone, then not only would the customer not have the "Bloody April Star" plane they thought they were buying, the eye candy that helped lure them into the purchase would be gone, too. Then what? I don't imagine or expect a Johannisthal D.III anytime soon to get the actual planes to replace those skins.

A solutions would be to release templates so proper skins can be made for those who want them but, more importantly, in future, sell what you advertise and advertise what you sell.

JFM,

Although the skin accuracy is nearly irrelevant to my enjoyment of the sim, I am learning a lot from your comments here. I appreciate you taking the time to sort out some of the details.

That said, when/if it is easy enough to do so, I will be adding my own squadron's emblem (USN VFA-41) to my planes when I fly RoF online... just thought I'd let you know so you can be emotionally prepared should you ever encounter/shoot me down in MP.

I will be adding my own squadron's emblem (USN VFA-41) to my planes when I fly RoF online... just thought I'd let you know so you can be emotionally prepared should you ever encounter/shoot me down in MP.

I'll be flying the Kitty in the Ring machine!

QFT.

I'd be proud to see it, JFM!

"Kitty in the Ring" really has potential for becoming an excellent online squad!

I havent read all post, so this might have been brought up before but anyway. Usually games as well as movies dont follow history accurately because "historically accurate" is not good for them. Games and movies need to focus on action and in history "action" was pretty rare. Most of the time soldiers/pilots didnt see any action and that cannot happen in game/movie.

Now how this is related to plane skins, you may ask? It is in a way as you cannot model all and you have to take some liberties(is that correct word?) to get a much time frame as possible filled in least possible time frame(Like in games/movies you focus that action part). From developing point of view Neoqb created DIII that fits pretty much whole 1917(and even early 1918). Earlier model could only fill early part of it, so OAW build make perfect sense. Now history freaks (like me) dont like it, but in the end it is better choice (I have been fighting about "historical accurasy" so long in WWIIOnline that I have seen the light/turn to dark side, depending eye of the beholder. Complaining about wrong skins just makes me chuckle now).

Meanwhile the UK gets its first sighting of beaver

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/06/090601-uk-beavers-video-ap.html

Ming

I think Jason777 said that minglish is hard to read. I agree with that. Most of the time Im wondering "Um, what"

That's exactly it.

And that's exactly what I don't want.

I want a real 1916 / early 1917 planeset to go with the Nieuport 17. A late Eindecker and an early Albatros D.III, for example.


Yes, I realise that technology was leapfrogging, with the Eindecker bested by the Nieuport 17, and the Nieuport 17 in turn bested by the early D.III. But that's the whole point of a historical sim, not an arcade game.

But, you know, it's all good. As long as we also get an early Albatros in time.

Right now it's a cheap cop-out to cram as many 1918 aircraft together as possible, with the Noop 17 there only to please the Russian crowd with that one skin, otherwise relegated to non-combat flight and single player.


Still, I have high hopes for a late 1917 setting with the upcoming Camel and Dr.I.

Well, I write "upcoming", but we haven't had any official confirmation yet.

Hellbender, you dont like it, I dont like it, they dont like it (Neoqb), but it is the way they have to do things. This way they get more "bang for the buck" (or what ever the saying it goes)

Now to point do they model earlier DIII? Perhaps after all other major planes are done (point is that it is not huge priority).

Well, I'm happy that we all agree... But neoqb too?

Isn't it up to them to stay true to making a historical sim?

What you're basically saying is that neoqb is shooting themselves in the foot to cater to people who refuse to buy more planes, and stay with the 1918 starter planes.



My point is: why have another late Albatros this early on in the game's life? Shouldn't they have started to make an early version, boosting the sales of both the early Albatros and the Nieuport 17?

Surely, logging on to T&T in a 1916 mission and finding out that only the N17 and D.III are available will nudge people into buying at least one of the two.

Or are they actually afraid of that?



If the main idea is that everyone should always be able to play in any online game using one of the four 1918 starter aircraft, then their business model is fundamentally flawed.

Surely, if Neoqb wanted to create a sim with the Red Baron in it, why didn't they make the earlier D.III in the first place?

When historically accurasy hinders developement it is bybassed. OAW DIII is better choice from developement point of view.





Developers have limited time and many other planes to do. They had choose which DIII to model and they choose OAW version as it better for long run (it fills way longer time frame). They only go back (if ever) to make another DIII after all other important planes are made. Earlier DIII would have only fitted early 1917. Now you get whole year.

Because they can model that with OAW DIII aswell. Only history freaks (again, like me) care about that MvR didnt flew OAW version. Also they aer doing Fokker Dr.1 so MvR is going to be modelled correctly anyway.

Heck, if I had my way, we'd be flying the Morane Bullet, Fokker Eindecker, the DH2 and the Halberstat.

I like stories that start at the beginning.

Well the DIII (I think... middle radiator) is hanging around on someones hd, there's pics of the external in the old KOTS screens.

http://wwiaircombat.com/pics/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=2

Mogster, that radiator is not in the middle. It shows OAW DIII

Ok, right Yes, Its got the rounded tail as well, not the flat rudder like this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ald3.jpg

The quest for the real ROF DIII continues...........

Heck, if I had my way, we'd be flying the Morane Bullet, Fokker Eindecker, the DH2 and the Halberstat.

I'd love that, too.

So would I.

I think it makes sense to give us the fullest amount of planes for the current time period (1917-1918) and then to start working back in time.

A worthy opponent for the N17 would be a DII, certainly not a DIII.

One thing that does concern me is when/if we get the abilty to skin our own aircraft, it the appearance of kitty in the ring and other, totally non historic masterpieces.

I can overlook a DIII skin appering on a OAW aircraft, but for me a styliesd skin will totally ruin immersion in MP.

I am with you Squid. From a SP PoV it makes absolute sense to start at 1918 and go backwards. It allows a career to start at a logical spot and end with the end of the war. Keep fleshing in 1918 until it resembles something reasonably complete. In particular - two seaters! Then go backwards in time. This will allow SP careers to be started earlier and earlier as the sim fleshes out.

From an MP PoV it also makes sense to flesh out a time period and not hop willy-nilly. Flying a 1916 rotary against a 1918 opposition is not a recipe for success. It might be fun for grins and giggles, but in any sort of competitive environment it is suicidal.

Anyway, with the exception of the N17 they appear to be handling things reasonably well. The Pfalz D.XII, Dolphin, Camel, and DRI are all legit parts of the 1918 stable. In fact, with these scouts in place RoF will have a very complete 1918 scout lineup.

<cough>two seaters<cough>

<cough>two seaters<cough>

+1. And <cough>multi-engine bombers<cough>

<cough-cough> +2 <cough-cough>

...sheesh, SimHQ coming down with Swine Flu or something?

I think it makes sense to give us the fullest amount of planes for the current time period (1917-1918) and then to start working back in time.

Same here Squid and by the time we have all the 1917-1918 planes, neoqb may have created a new map and a new front line for the earlier period. The front line is fixed on the current map, it will need to move to some other place in the earlier period, perhaps when everyone thought that they'd be home by Christmas.

Note they didn't say which Christmas, nothing new under the sun: where Blitzkreig = two weeks

Ming