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Will this game support force feedback ?

Posted By: fearlesslds

Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 12:20 AM

Or does that not exist anymore ?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 03:29 AM

I certainly hope not. Force feedback is the worst thing to happen to joysticks in the entire history of joysticks! It's an extremely unrealistic feature, in all past and current incarnations, and it actually hampers the player instead of helping him as it should. Theoretically, it's a good idea. But I can't see any way of implementing it even half-way decently without causing the joystick to cost over a thousand dollars. At any rate, I hope no resources are wasted on force feedback support. We don't need that gimmock gumming things up.
Posted By: Sim

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 04:31 AM

 Originally Posted By: fearlesslds
Or does that not exist anymore ?



Why would there be any feedback support to a game that doesn't exist?
Posted By: Dunkers

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 08:48 AM

I have a force feedback headset - or at least I did until the vibrating bits packed up. It was a very peculiar sensation, to say the least.

Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 08:57 AM

Yes it will. Just a feeling you understand. The buzz will be back shortly.

Microsoft sticks can be set up by the MS ForceEdit application to have exactly the right amount of feedback on pre-stall and concrete shuttering bumpiness, return-to-centre spring etc. Just a little rattling on rolling down the runway, just a hint of pre-stall edginess.

Best though with FF kit is the change in the control surfaces under the transition from slow to fast airspeeds, when the ailerons for example lose control authority at higher speeds, both hands. How can you fly a plane with feedback from the control surfaces that feels like nothing at all at any airspeed. It's like- no let's not go there

WW1 planes have large control surface areas and all sorts of weird control surface configurations. We must be able to feel the airflow through the stick... high powered planes have a tendency to keep going if something's wrong but a slow plane will fall out of the sky right away if you lose control authority. Plus you're a lot lower for the same time flying so spins will rarely be survivable until we get the hang of it. Proper physics, no training wheels to assist takeoff like earlier BoB sims

Especially we'll need force feedback when one is a Camel driver which explains why the WW1 Officers Mess was called the Casbah and why they're all wearing fezzes and false moustaches in some photos

Ming
Posted By: Mogster

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 10:39 AM

Will KOTS support force feedback?

I certainly hope so, well programmed FF (IL2, Condor) can be very immersive. What we don't need is loads of canned effects, just the weight of the control surfaces please.

If you don't like it you can always switch it off and have standard twangy stick centering.
Posted By: tagTaken2

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 10:46 AM

 Originally Posted By: Benny Moore
I certainly hope not. Force feedback is the worst thing to happen to joysticks in the entire history of joysticks! It's an extremely unrealistic feature, in all past and current incarnations, and it actually hampers the player instead of helping him as it should. Theoretically, it's a good idea. But I can't see any way of implementing it even half-way decently without causing the joystick to cost over a thousand dollars. At any rate, I hope no resources are wasted on force feedback support. We don't need that gimmock gumming things up.


While I appreciate your concern that resources may be 'wasted' on a feature that you don't care for, a disagree 100%.
The word 'realistic' is a joke when applied to combat flight sims in general (unless you are prepared to actually kill yourself when the screen goes black- if so, respect).
What FFB does is help give some of the tactile feedback that pilots would experience, even if it is missapplied. I'm guessing you've never used a decent FFB stick, otherwise you wouldn't be saying that it hampers the pilot- I find my Sidewiders 1 + 2 a godsend, and particularly for aircraft of this period, I think it will be incredibly important- only slightly less so than TIR 6dof.
Posted By: Valisk_61

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 11:09 AM

I hope FFB will be included, although somebody needs to release a decent FFB stick - our MSFFB2's aren't going to last forever!

(even though it feels like they will last forever!) \:\)
Posted By: Mogster

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 02:13 PM

Agreed

Motor racing simmers have high level wheels with FFB, what we need is a good quality FFB stick. CH should make one.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 04:28 PM

Untill now, we havent work over this feature, but we hope we will have enough of time to complete it before release, so just cross yer fingers ;\)
Posted By: Valisk_61

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/07/08 04:35 PM

If you only get time to implement one FFB effect, can we have loading on the control surfaces please! \:D
Posted By: mazex

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/08/08 10:04 PM

Well, every flight sim the last 15 years or so has had support for FFB so I can not even imagine a game like this without it...

The trusty MS FFB2 is the only joystick that works well as mentioned above, and IL2 without it looses so much immersion for me at least... God forbid that it stops working now that they are impossible to find. I have tuned down some of the "overmodeled" effects in FFB edit etc. Without getting the indication of the stick pressure/stall buffeting it gets really hard for me at least doing those maniac knife edge turns in a 109 at low altitude without beeing afraid of pulling too hard... For me, FFB is almost as important as TrackIR for immersion.

An interesting side note is that MS themselves have probably ruined the reputation of FFB joysticks by the disastrous FF support in the FS/CFS series...
Posted By: fearlesslds

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/09/08 02:58 AM

To show you how long it's been since I played a WW1 game , all the force feedback did when I played was shake when you used the mgs . The other stuff mentioned would be a nice addition.
Posted By: fearlesslds

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/09/08 03:00 AM

Sim , I was hoping there would be FF esp for you so you can stop roughing up your mule there.
Posted By: Sim

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/09/08 05:13 AM

 Originally Posted By: fearlesslds
Sim , I was hoping there would be FF esp for you so you can stop roughing up your mule there.

Is that an offer for some weird sexual practice? roughing up a mule with FF......
Posted By: tagTaken2

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/09/08 09:58 AM

 Originally Posted By: mazex

An interesting side note is that MS themselves have probably ruined the reputation of FFB joysticks by the disastrous FF support in the FS/CFS series...


Interesting, I had the impression that it was only a few isolated individuals including me, that had unworkable effects with FS/CFS and MSFFB sticks... that's pretty incredible, that their flagship products don't work with their expensively-developed and custom designed hardware. So embarrassing, so MS.

Still mad about reading this afternoon that their OOXML is going to be adopted as a standard
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/09/08 11:01 AM

Nope...the CFS series is notorious for it's poor FF performance. MS defining the word Irony for us
Posted By: Mogster

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/09/08 07:30 PM

Always hated the FS version of FF, totally different to everyone elses, bonkers. I can understand the logic behind what happens (linkage slop etc) but it still doesn't make me enjoy the end result.

Yes, the FF has always been bugged for me in the FS series. If you don't like their effects then turning them off leaves you with no centering forces at all \:\(
Posted By: Mogster

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/09/08 07:32 PM

 Originally Posted By: =FB=VikS
Untill now, we havent work over this feature, but we hope we will have enough of time to complete it before release, so just cross yer fingers ;\)


I hope so, I can't imagine a prop sim without control surface weight FF.
Posted By: mazex

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/09/08 09:31 PM

 Originally Posted By: Mogster

Yes, the FF has always been bugged for me in the FS series. If you don't like their effects then turning them off leaves you with no centering forces at all \:\(


Yes - that part is even more annoying than the fact that the FF effects are insane... No way of getting it right. If we could just have a self centering spring effect with our Microsoft hardware.

Regarding the FF support in the FS series I'm amazed that they did not fix it in FSX... They are just as bad as ever with the MS FFB2. Limp in the middle and then suddenly jerks back when you move to far from the large dead center - and with a random delay! It's like a strong madman with bad reactions flying dual command with you, trying to counter every move you do...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/10/08 04:44 AM

 Originally Posted By: mazex
It's like a strong madman with bad reactions flying dual command with you, trying to counter every move you do...


That's an excellent description of force feedback altogether. I doubt that anyone who's flown real aircraft could have anything good to say about existing force feedback technology. I certainly don't.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/10/08 10:02 AM

No it's not at all an excellent description of MSFF in my experience, not if you're using the MS Force Edit utility

But it is a very precise description of my MSFF2 stick in MS flight-sims in my experience.

The MS Force Edit application loads in the dot-ffe files (spring.ffe for example, return spring) which are in our Il-2 ForceFeedback folders, simple edit job takes two minutes

Why are there no dot ffe files in MSFS folders, left-hand/right-hand thing. The polite version

Ming
Posted By: tagTaken2

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/10/08 11:46 AM

 Originally Posted By: =FB=VikS
Untill now, we havent work over this feature, but we hope we will have enough of time to complete it before release, so just cross yer fingers ;\)


On a scale of 1-10, how important would you say it is to gennadich?

I'm curious, because it seems to me that the further we go from modern jet sims, the more important it is. I'm playing Falcon at the moment, and FFB is not an issue. The FC takes care of stalls.
But as the aircraft get older, and more removed from the experience of sitting in front of a PC, more 'feel' is required. This is where FFB can make a difference, and as KotS will involve aircraft barely 10+ years from the birth of flight, I feel quite strongly that physical feedback is important to a good sim.

Hoping that you have considered this.
Posted By: FlyRetired

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/10/08 02:09 PM

Excellent points!

The era's aircraft were characteristic of these unbalanced, unharmonized control conditions. The concept of refining pilot ergonomics was just being explored, with most efforts aimed at reducing input forces at high speeds, and this through the use of aerodynamically-balanced control surfaces (like those "horned" surfaces most readily seen on the Fokker Dr.I and Fokker D.VII for example). Added to this were conditions of over-sensitivity in one axis of control input (often the rudder), coupled to sluggish control response in the lateral axis, along with widely divergent stick/rudder movement requirements, with total stick movements ranging 8 inches or more in some fighters (not to mention those wheel-type "Deperdussin" controls common in heavier aircraft). On top of this, some aircraft like the Sopwith Camel were intentionally rigged "tail-heavy" for full fuel/ammo load, requiring constant forward stick pressure, which would transition to neutral stick position as fuel was consumed during flight. Layer-in adverse yaw with aileron input, and powerful gyroscopic movements characteristic to many rotary-powered planes, along with the freezing temps and dulled senses at altitude, and we can only imagine the difficulties WWI pilots had to wrestle with in the air.

Now a counter argument:

How many flight simmers would fly "full-real" controls if given the option (temptation) to modify their joystick's input parameters (after all, IL-2 was unflyable for many of us without custom joystick mapping). Added to this are varying degrees of acceptance/satisfaction with FF sticks. Then there's the competitive edge to be gained by dialing-out these flight conditions, and that potential advantage for multiplayer encounters, and one begins to wonder how much might become too much? Of course having the option one way or another is always the argument (but if design time so allows).

Now to specifics:

There are in-game parameters that can emulate sluggish/stiffening controls for instance, and it doesn't involve FF. The CFS3/FS9 add-on Bristol F2b designed by Robert Bruce as an example, which progressively scales the player's aileron input affect as high speed is approached. That is, as speed builds in a dive the joystick roll input becomes less responsive, to a point where despite its deflection the controls are "locked" (until speed is reduced). Of course this is not a novel solution, but just an example of a good workable solution for replicating things like sluggish/stiffening controls (and it can be hard-coded so that it is unaffected by joystick settings).

As always, many of these comparisons between "real" flying conditions and what's possible or even desired with simulation software and hardware comes down to a choice of balance. Hopefully the KOTS Team has had the time to weigh these WWI piloting conditions, and have made the best choices possible between time-to-develope requirements, and their in-game utility and balance.

Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/10/08 06:49 PM

When flying on a plane with rotative engine right now, it takes some skill to fly it - you need to coordinate your flight all the time, cause when you pull positive pitch - plane yaws to the right, when you push negative - it yaws to the left, when you need to comlete a loop - you need to push full left rudder when you in wheels up position (cause plane is relversed), airplane flows in the air (you can feel the turbulence bumps and stuff) and now you are tryin to make some aim - and all of that without any feedback in the stick ;\)

All of it is not so hard as it reads - you just need some time to master it, and its became very interesting \:\)

Right now, feedback is a feature for us, we know that it would be good to have it, but we have some much more important things to do, and we will do it if we will have some time gaps before release.
Posted By: FlyRetired

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/10/08 07:27 PM

 Originally Posted By: =FB=VikS

All of it is not so hard as it reads - you just need some time to master it, and its became very interesting \:\)

(and it reads high-fidelity flight modeling)

Captain Ronald Sykes, DFC, who flew Camels with Nos 9 (RNAS), 201 and 203 Squadrons (RAF):

TURNING

In medium turns at normal speeds the controls are nice and light, and only small movements of aileron and rudder are required. Inexperience can easily cause side-slipping but the resultant air-blast on your cheek will give immediate warning of the error. Steep turns - after plenty of practice - are a real joy. Do not let your airspeed fall below 70 knots. Move the stick over to the left two or three inches, then bring it back quickly to your stomach and at the same time apply left rudder; you will find yourself in a vertical bank with the Camel's nose racing round the horizon. A 360-degree turn will be completed in a matter of seconds; moreover, the Camel will come out of it without losing any of its speed. The full left rudder is needed to counteract the gyroscopic effect of the heavy rotary engine, which has a strong tendency to push the nose into the sky on a left turn.

A right-hand turn (vertical) can be done in a similar manner, except that full left rudder is again needed, but this time to stop the nose from sliding down towards the earth. Climbing turns to the right can be done by applying left rudder before you get right over onto your right wing tip. For climbing turns push the throttle and the petrol control forward to give maximum revs. In fact, in all manoeuvers keep your left hand on the throttle levers and fly the Camel with your right hand on the stick.


STUNTING

Stunting was banned during flights over England after questions in the House of Commons about the connection between stunting and the frequency of crashes. So now it is mainly self-taught - over France! Your first attempt to loop may be the same as mine; nose down, speed up to 150, pull up and then over the top . . . and now trouble starts! The Camel gives a sudden flick turn to the right, and as you throttle back it does something akin to an inverted stall. You feel that you are slipping through your belt, although it is very tightly fastened; you draw your feet out from under the straps and bring your knees up to your chin to stop you from slipping out, but the subsequent antics of the Camel seem even more confusing. At least however the use of full aileron will get it right-side up again and then into level flight. Needless to say, you need plenty of height when you try this trick; and do remember to put on plenty of left rudder when you are inverted at the top of the loop.


 Originally Posted By: =FB=VikS

All of it is not so hard as it reads - you just need some time to master it, and its became very interesting \:\)

Well, we'll have to take your word on that VikS. ;\)

Posted By: Dantes

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/10/08 09:05 PM

Yes indeed. From VikS' description of a rotary engine craft in KOTS, I can finally rest easy that the developers have succeeded in creating the characteristics necessary for WW1 simming. Very happy to hear those words. \:D

As far as force-feedback. Sure it's nice to have but stalls can be recognized by aural indications as well.

In the WW1 sim Dawn of Aces, the wind flutter on the wings sound increased in volume as one got closer to the stall point. I remember it being good enough to ride the aircraft on the edge of a stall in a dogfight. Simple and it worked for everyone (I'm surprised more sims don't use this simple solution actually: It's prevalent in race sims). I would prefer if the developers took that sort of direction for a solution. What is the point of spending time creating effects that only a percentage of players are going to be aware of?

To be devil's advocate to myself, the same could be said of Track IR as well. Still, that little item is an invention no gamer could seriously debate the merits of: It is the best invention for flight simming since the joystick.

If force-feedback it is implemented, maybe I can take that Sidewinder FF stick out of the closet for a change. ;\)

S!
Posted By: FlyRetired

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/10/08 09:41 PM

Perhaps there's stall buffeting of one's aircraft because of airflow separation in KOTS?

The whole approach of pursuing "active air" flow in the sim's flight engine opens up a new range of interactive possibilities like this.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/11/08 09:31 AM

Well, we actually have sound effects already too, i mean when you dive too fast - youll hear struts/wind noice much higher ;\)
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/11/08 10:40 AM

The wires sing and we will be inspecting for correct Aeolian sounds like the harps played by the angels. Whistle-whistle to begin with, and then ping-ping-ping and the wings fold up

In Il-2 with the sound mod you can hear this dive sound, it makes the dive seem powerful: the plane gathers power as the sound gets louder and the engine starts shrieking. It doesn't sound like a big thing but when you don't hear it flying unmodded you miss it. Glad to hear it's in KotS!

In Wings of War the pilot shouts Geronimo when he jumps over the side. Or possibly Mother

Ming
Posted By: tagTaken2

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/11/08 11:23 AM

Thankyou for the feedback. It sounds like a lot of effort has been put in, so I pray that it plays like it feels.

Anyone ever noticed that if you die in Falcon, it sounds like Barney (from Simpsons) screaming?
Posted By: mazex

Re: Will this game support force feedback ? - 04/11/08 08:45 PM

 Originally Posted By: Benny Moore
 Originally Posted By: mazex
It's like a strong madman with bad reactions flying dual command with you, trying to counter every move you do...


That's an excellent description of force feedback altogether. I doubt that anyone who's flown real aircraft could have anything good to say about existing force feedback technology. I certainly don't.


Well, my description was about the FF effects in FSX (and older FS titles like CFS). In other games like IL2 it works really well and is a must for immersion (at least for me). Having said that I have tried quite a few FF joysticks and it's only the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 that does the trick for me... The "rudder heaviness" varying with speed and stall buffeting works really well in IL2 after some tweaking of the FF files (mainly to reduce cannon shaking etc). Combine that with a TrackIR Pro and it gets as good as it can in front of a monitor.

And yes, I have 350+ hours logged IRL in varying planes (Like the SK-60 light attack/jet trainer (Swedish airforce), the YAK-52 and the Tiger Moth for example)

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