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WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced

Posted By: SaQSoN

WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 11:23 AM

Hi,

Russian developer team, called GT (Gennadich Team) officially announced the start of the WWI sim development (Russian text below):

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1453

And their first dev.update:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1498

Note, that they are totaly independent from 1C and Oleg developer (at least, nominally wink ).
Posted By: SaQSoN

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 11:25 AM

PS Planned release date is the end of 2006
Posted By: Kamikuza

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 11:26 AM

That's gonna make SOME people happy ...
Posted By: Winnebagle

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 11:48 AM

Neat. Do they say anything about a dynamic campaign? Perhaps how it's going to be so super awesome that it'll put the likes of F4 and RB3 to shame? Maybe?

Posted By: 150GCT_Veltro

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 11:49 AM

Thank a lot Vladimir for this SUPERB news!!!!
Posted By: Dolph

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 11:54 AM

Well...will it actually be interesting?
I mean, is any of you enjoying flying IL2's biplanes?

Personally, I don't think I'll be interested, though you never know what will come \:D
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 12:01 PM

Fokkers and Camels and Spads oh my!

Can't wait!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: rollnloop.

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 12:03 PM

Now that's excellent news, good luck Gennadich
Posted By: Wulfycuddles

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 12:21 PM

Brilliant!! what this series has ALWAYS needed. I predict it will be bloody awesome
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 12:22 PM

I'm over the moon - this will be staggeringly excellent !
Posted By: uberweng

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 12:27 PM

Time to jump on this bandwagon - and the first model looks great as well.
Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 12:44 PM

All right!!

http://www.sinical.net/contact.jpg
Posted By: Ian Boys

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 12:56 PM

I'll definitely get this, esp. if there's an SE5!
Posted By: RAF_Loke

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kamikuza:
That's gonna make SOME people happy ...
You bet \:D I'm one of them.
Posted By: DanP

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 12:59 PM

Press release in TWO WEEKS... I guess it doesn't matter who the developer is, this phraze comes with the code \:D

Cery cool, but those are some mighty ugly aircraft...

What I'm wondering about is, how would they model throwing a grenade from the A/C? How will the player aim? Perhaps we need a new form of controller, the "Cyber Football"?
Posted By: Tchaika.

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 01:05 PM

The best news I've heard for long time, thanks so much SaQSon, and Gennadich Team to take care of this \:D
Posted By: Bearcat99

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 01:06 PM

Sweet!! Right in time for BoB..
Posted By: Sitting Duck

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 01:06 PM

No way I'm getting that!

The torque is WAY overmodeled on the Camel, and the Zeppelins have ubersniper gunners that totaly ruin the realism.....
Posted By: No105_Ogdens

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 01:08 PM

That could be fun, doesn't immediately appeal but Red Baron didn't at first!
Posted By: vpmedia

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 01:12 PM



this a very very good news!
Posted By: T.E.D.

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 01:15 PM

I want an HMS Argus, and tail hooks.....and zeppelins...and poison gas....
Posted By: no105_mfu

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 01:18 PM

This has been a long time coming. At least 2 promising wwI cfs since the days of RB3D never saw the light of day. I hope this one makes it.
Posted By: Tchaika.

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 01:18 PM

And a Macchi M7 please, to rebuilt the fights other Venise \:D
Posted By: SYN_Ricky

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 01:32 PM

Looking forward to see how this will go! Been waiting for a new WWI sim since Flying Corps and Red Baron II \:\)
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 01:36 PM

Stocking up on housebricks here, great news!

Ming
Posted By: Jabout

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:02 PM

This genre just has too few good sims, the more the better.
Posted By: enigma6584

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dolph:
Well...will it actually be interesting?
I mean, is any of you enjoying flying IL2's biplanes?

Personally, I don't think I'll be interested, though you never know what will come \:D
You bet I'm interested. Last weekend I happened to be watching the movie "The Blue Max." I remember thinking that it would be great to have a flight sim like IL-2 but focussed on WWI.
Posted By: 150GCT_Veltro

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ian Boys:
I'll definitely get this, esp. if there's an SE5!
Se5a is a MUST, i've not doubts about it in the sim....

Some info about the WW1 aviation:

http://www.airwar.ru/fw1e.html#p8
Posted By: Kristorf

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:39 PM

Interesting, and it will make a great upgrade from my aging copy of Red Baron 3d
Posted By: FltLt HardBall

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:47 PM

Interesting. Oleg said he wouldn't go there himself because there wasn't enough data to make reliable FMs. But who's going to argue 90 years after the fact? IMO there's enough anecdotal evidence to make it near enough; e.g. the Camel is tourque-y and has a magneto switch instead of a throttle... good enough for the armchair pilot. Bring it on I say! Then progress to Spain and China... you beauty!
Posted By: Consumer Services

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:49 PM

Ming, are you expecting lots of house to house riots around here? Some washing machines don't like blokes heaving half-bricks at em ;\)

I'm really looking forward to this, my last WWI simulation was the original red baron...
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:49 PM

translations of the russian anyone???
Posted By: Trip

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:54 PM

the Dr1 is a good sign of it \:D Nice shot, look forward to more er.. updates
Posted By: Gustang

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:56 PM

Please don't let this be too good to be true...
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:57 PM

Ok, from the little Russian I know:

"период с 1916 по 1918"
=
The period 1916-1918.

These planes should be present:
"Fokker Dr.1, Nieuport 17/17bis/23, SPAD XIII, Albatros D.III, Gotha G.V, Sopwith Camel, R.E.8"

"авиасимуляторов на 2006 год"
=
The flight sim will be out in 2006...
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 02:59 PM

Babelfish:

"Company GT officially declared about the beginning of the works on the new play project for PC in the genre of aviasimulyatorov, under the working name: "the first world: Knights Of sky ".

Actions on the subject of game are developed in the period from 1916 through 1918 at the western front, when three sides: England, France and Germany engaged the defensive positions on the borders of Belgium and France. Specifically, then, at the dawn of the origin of aviation, combat aircraft for the first time obtained mass application, and the first aces glorified their names by audacious victories in the first air battles.

In the territory of more than 100 000 square kilometers the players can take part in the known to us on the historical literature glorious battles in Ypres, Mal'mezona, in the operation in To kambre, in the battle on the river of foxes, and the Verdun meat grinder. In game are planned to include 13 controlled by player legendary aircraft, derailed to us from the historical illustrations: Fokker Dr.1, Nieuport y"/.y"bis/и, SPAD THE XIII, Albatros D.III, Gotha G.V, Sopwith Camel, R.E.8, and also to 30 aircraft and dirigibles under control OF THE II and more than 60 models of ground-based technology and units of kinetic energy. In the game it will be represented as single, so also net regime (game through the Internet), and companies for the players for each of the sides of participants in the conflict and convenient system of instruction will be also developed.

At the basis of project lies the deeply modified nucleus of game "Il-2 the attack aircraft" from company Maddox Games, into initial code of which command GT plans to introduce thousands of changes, which are concerned not only the addition of new 3d- models of technology and change in the model of landscape, but also improvement in the graphic and sonic specials-effect, correction of the mission model and model of ballistics of rifle armament, and much other, which will make it possible to raise the level of game to the contemporary standards of aviasimulyatorov in 2006.
Preliminary date of reliza of project - end of the autumn of 2006. The publisher of project is the company of yS."
Posted By: Ivan Putski

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 03:17 PM

Sounds great, be looking forward to a good WWI flight sim.
Posted By: JG1_RiverRat

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 03:17 PM

Oh man...I am now a Happy Camper again! JG1 in the skys again! Woot!!
Posted By: BFawlty

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 03:27 PM

Wonderful news! Thx

BF
Posted By: Spritle

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 03:51 PM

While I undoubtedly will buy this sim, I would still give my left nut for a Korean War sim based on the IL-2 engine.

Spritle
Posted By: Kamikuza

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 03:56 PM

Must ... not ... skin ... WWI ... planes ...
Posted By: F19_Klunk

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dolph:
Well...will it actually be interesting?
I mean, is any of you enjoying flying IL2's biplanes?

Personally, I don't think I'll be interested, though you never know what will come \:D
Are you kidding me!!!!???
Posted By: Rudi Jaeger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 04:20 PM

Count me in, I'll buy it! Was just thinking how much I enjoyed "Flying Corps". This is great news!
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 04:42 PM

Quote:
Company GT officially declared about the beginning of the works on the new play project for PC in the genre of aviasimulyatorov, under the working name: "the first world: Knights Of sky ".

Actions on the subject of game are developed in the period from 1916 through 1918 at the western front, when three sides: England, France and Germany engaged the defensive positions on the borders of Belgium and France. Specifically, then, at the dawn of the origin of aviation, combat aircraft for the first time obtained mass application, and the first aces glorified their names by audacious victories in the first air battles.

In the territory of more than 100 000 square kilometers the players can take part in the known to us on the historical literature glorious battles in Ypres, Mal'mezona, in the operation in To kambre, in the battle on the river of foxes, and the Verdun meat grinder. In game are planned to include 13 controlled by player legendary aircraft, derailed to us from the historical illustrations: Fokker Dr.1, Nieuport y"/.y"bis/и, SPAD THE XIII, Albatros D.III, Gotha G.V, Sopwith Camel, R.E.8, and also to 30 aircraft and dirigibles under control OF THE II and more than 60 models of ground-based technology and units of kinetic energy. In the game it will be represented as single, so also net regime (game through the Internet), and companies for the players for each of the sides of participants in the conflict and convenient system of instruction will be also developed.

At the basis of project lies the deeply modified nucleus of game "Il-2 the attack aircraft" from company Maddox Games, into initial code of which command GT plans to introduce thousands of changes, which are concerned not only the addition of new 3d- models of technology and change in the model of landscape, but also improvement in the graphic and sonic specials-effect, correction of the mission model and model of ballistics of rifle armament, and much other, which will make it possible to raise the level of game to the contemporary standards of aviasimulyatorov in 2006.
Preliminary date of reliza of project - end of the autumn of 2006. The publisher of project is the company of yS.
Quote:
Yes map there will be one large, all military actions of those is annual if you look on the maps exactly they fall into exemplary square 300 to 300 + -. we they calculated that this more convenient than the use of several maps, everything after all Aviasim this not KS.

To make letabel'nye dirigibles not more difficult than to make letabel'nye aircraft but this even if is tyuey realizovyvatsya that only in the form of bonusa and thus far is not planned, although in modllerov and in entire association the hands to this scratch, especially after Howard Hughes's film.

Decent on-line. Khmm looking with which to compare. We strongly reduced the periods of development up to the year, that as you understand for sima extremely little, on this we is realized the mass of fich but still greater it will remain in the background for the following product, but being moved nazemku we guarantee accurately. Like strategic fichi.

Infantry and the cavalry this is the basis of troops of that time; therefore certainly to the simulation of the groups of yunitov we will dedicate various time. We think that it will leave interestingly
http://world.altavista.com/tr

Ming
Posted By: Daze

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 04:43 PM

I'm afraid to get my hopes up.
Alot can happen in a year. But if they really make a WW1 sim as good as IL2 I will very happy indeed \:\)
Posted By: Slush

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 04:50 PM

Oooh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy! \:\)

S!/slush
Posted By: Bogun

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 04:50 PM

Here is my quick correction of the Bablefish's writings... \:\)

---------------------------------------------
Company GT (Genaddich Team) officially announced about the beginning of the works on the new project PC game in the genre of aviasim, under the working name: "The First World War: Knights of the Skies ".

Actions according to the game design will take place in the period from 1916 to 1918 on the Western Front, were three sides: England, France and Germany occupied the defensive positions on the borders of Belgium and France. Exactly at this time, at the dawn of the birth of aviation, for the first time combat aircraft were used an mass, and the first aces glorified their names by audacious victories in the first air battles.

In the territory of more than 100 000 square kilometers players will be able to take part in the known to us only from historical literature famous battles in Ypres, Malmezon, in the operation of Kambre, in the battle on the river Liss, and the Verdun meat grinder. 13 legendary aircraft controlled by player, being planned to be included in the game. derailed to us from the historical illustrations: Fokker Dr.1, Nieuport 17/17bis/23, SPAD XIII, Albatros D.III, Gotha G.V, Sopwith Camel, R.E.8, and also up to 30 aircraft and dirigibles under control of the AI and more than 60 models of ground-based equipment and personnel. In the game it will have Single Player, Network play (via the Internet), campaigns for the players on the both sides of the conflict. Convenient system of learning instruction will also be developed.

Deeply modified engine of the Il-2 Sturmovik game (by Maddox Games) is going to be at the base of the project, but the GT is planning to introduce thousands of changes related not only to the 3D models of new objects and changes into landscape, but also improvements into graphic and sound special effects, corrections for the flight model and ballistic characteristics of the armament, and much more into its source code, which will allow to elevate new game to the standards of the 2006 simms.

Preliminary date of release of project - end of the Autumn of 2006.
The publisher of project is 1C.
---------------------------------------------
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 04:57 PM

corrections for the... ballistic characteristics of the armament

Housebricks

386SX minimum hardware

Ming
Posted By: Ratsack

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 04:59 PM

You bloody little beauty!! Bring on the Red Baron (so the Aussie Lewis gunners can cook his bacon...again).

cheers,
Zzzzzzzzzzz
Posted By: Swoose

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 05:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Daze:
I'm afraid to get my hopes up.
Alot can happen in a year. But if they really make a WW1 sim as good as IL2 I will very happy indeed \:\)
What Daze said \:\)

I'm encouraged by the fact that, apparently, GT is another design studio affiliated with the Russian 1:C software publishing company. The lower cost of developing gaming software in Russia, combined with the technical quality of 1:C design studios like Maddox Games, may help give this fledgling World War One combat aviation sim a chance of actually being produced.

GT and 1:C probably still need to overcome the hurdle of finding a Western publisher for distribution outside Russia. (UbiSoft...are you monitoring this board?) I'll also be interested to see if this game shows up in some raw form at E3 2006 in Los Angeles, just slightly over six months from now.
Posted By: grat

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 05:11 PM

Excellent news. Love the SE5. Time to watch Aces High in anticipation.
Posted By: Peccator

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 05:17 PM

It should be easy to develop a dynamic campaign generator as the airwar had almost no effect on the ground war in WWI.
Posted By: Fer

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 05:19 PM

Im an alcoholic with 5 years sober, but today I am going to drink!!!!!
Posted By: Fer

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 05:20 PM

Orange juice
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 05:28 PM

Surprised they won't also have the US as a force you can fly for. It should be a good idea, sales-wise.

Anyway, I'm sure it will be possible to fly for the Escadrille Lafayette. Also, the flyable SPAD XIII should come in very handy, plane-wise.

Fun-wise, flying-wise and sim-wise, I can't wait for this to become reality!
Posted By: RocketDog

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 05:40 PM

Sounds absolutely irresistible.

One of these would be nice. If something of a handful.

Posted By: =69.GIAP=TOOZ

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 05:43 PM

Please tell me they are doing an Ilya Mourometz bomber?? The first ever dedicated heavy bomber in existence - and it was a Russian aircraft!! They HAVE to model it!!!

Man, this is great news!! I was so disappointed when Knights Over Europe bombed. I hope this makes it!
Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 05:50 PM

OUTSTANDING! It's about bloody time the IL-2 engine was used for something other than those flying metal monstrosities from WW2... ;\) \:D
Posted By: csThor

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 06:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ArgonV:
OUTSTANDING! It's about bloody time the IL-2 engine was used for something other than those flying metal monstrosities from WW2... ;\) \:D
Someone hand me the rope. This is blasphemy!
Posted By: TailFlamer

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 06:15 PM

I can smell burning dope and fabric now.
I will be in line for this one.
And like already mentioned, a Korean War sim based on the IL-2 engine would be on my 'must have' list too.
Posted By: Obi_Kwiet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 06:21 PM

*Crosses fingers for better sound*
Posted By: Badsight

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 06:55 PM

oh man this is great news

i cant wait
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 07:17 PM

Hello everybody:)
You dont need to use autotranslators due we have an english speakin part of forum, heres a link:
http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=37

S!
Posted By: Gaston

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 07:50 PM

GREAT news !!! The meaning of it (for me) is that finally, Oleg will let the code of the game becoming more open than now... meaning of that is that, maybe, we will also be able to develop more things for FB like, for example, the so needed MTO !!! Or am I dreaming awaken ???

Also, a Korean sim based on IL2 would be great...
Posted By: Leadspitter

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 08:07 PM

this game engine really is perfect for a wwi sim or chopper sim with its limitations in map size ground item visability draw distance, high alt modeling. I will definatly get this if they finish it.
Posted By: GoGamer.com - Jason

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 08:08 PM

Saqson,

Do you have a contact there or do they have a publisher yet? I want to make sure this title is available in our shop and in the USA.

Jason
Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 08:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dolph:
Well...will it actually be interesting?
I mean, is any of you enjoying flying IL2's biplanes?

Personally, I don't think I'll be interested, though you never know what will come \:D
Heh. The day a decent WWI comes out I'm backing to strapping on a Spad or DH-2 and I'm done with these high faluting aircraft with their raised landing gear and closed cockpits.

Real men flew the Re-8. I mean only real men would fly and aircraft with only 5mph difference between max speed and stall speed right?
Posted By: Frankyboy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 08:44 PM

i will cross my fingers for the development team !
and will expect not to much ;\)
Posted By: Flying Hedman

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 09:42 PM

Albatros!!
Posted By: ishbu

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 09:50 PM

FAN-FLIPP'N-TASTIC
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 10:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
Hello everybody:)
You dont need to use autotranslators due we have an english speakin part of forum, heres a link:
http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=37 S!
Do I detect the presence of one of the glorious members of the design team for this fantastic new project?

If so, please come back often and update us on your progress. There are many, many of us here that have hoped since the days of RBIIID that we would have the chance to fly the great crates of the First World War using something like Olegs engine.

In fact if you do a search here you will find many discussions about it. You may have to go to the archives to get most of it though.



Copterdrvr
Posted By: woofiedog

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 10:02 PM

Excellent News... Time to Dust off those flying Goggles!
Posted By: IceFire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 10:30 PM

I've never owned or been interested in a WWI flight sim before...

But this could change all that very quickly. Bring on the Tempest of WWI...the Sopwith Camel!
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/11/05 10:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by copterdrvr:
Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
Hello everybody:)
You dont need to use autotranslators due we have an english speakin part of forum, heres a link:
http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=37 S!
Do I detect the presence of one of the glorious members of the design team for this fantastic new project?

If so, please come back often and update us on your progress. There are many, many of us here that have hoped since the days of RBIIID that we would have the chance to fly the great crates of the First World War using something like Olegs engine.

In fact if you do a search here you will find many discussions about it. You may have to go to the archives to get most of it though.



Copterdrvr
rgr that:)
Posted By: Ronbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 05:40 AM

I too, would like to see this with the Il2 engine.
i just hope it doesnt have endless FM debates like we had in Rb2 and 3d. Hope their sources stand up to the test.

very cool.
Posted By: Madaboutsims

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 05:44 AM

Rondo if you are miricle worker then your wishes will come true. i think we will always have 'those' discussions/flame wars/my sim is better than yours etc etc,..
Posted By: WWCephas

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 07:04 AM

cautiously optomistic....
Posted By: csThor

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 08:08 AM

The only thing that would interest me is a good offline campaign á la "Red Baron II". Not like "Falcon 4" of "Battle of Britain" but like "Red Baron II". Knowing the limitations of the Il-2 engine I somehow doubt that \:\(
Posted By: Dolph

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 08:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dolph:
Well...will it actually be interesting?
I mean, is any of you enjoying flying IL2's biplanes?

Personally, I don't think I'll be interested, though you never know what will come \:D
Heh. The day a decent WWI comes out I'm backing to strapping on a Spad or DH-2 and I'm done with these high faluting aircraft with their raised landing gear and closed cockpits.

Real men flew the Re-8. I mean only real men would fly and aircraft with only 5mph difference between max speed and stall speed right?
hehehehehe, maybe you are right guys, but if the modelling is like it should be (slow planes), then I'm not so sure that I'll be so excited. As I told above: is any of you enjoying flying P.11 in IL2? Is any of you flying it on 1x1 for example? And this is fast compared to WWI planes LOL

Anyway, as I already said: you never know what will come. Maybe I'll be more thrilled than you in the end \:D

BTW, any news on 1C's BoB?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 08:41 AM

Oh Happy Day! I'm ready...
Posted By: WTE_Phantom

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 08:44 AM

Well this was annouced some time ago and like most things I thought it had died a long death.
Well done we need a decent WW1 Sim WAW is fun but we need a serious one.

I am onboard for sure



Posted By: Brigstock

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dolph:
hehehehehe, maybe you are right guys, but if the modelling is like it should be (slow planes), then I'm not so sure that I'll be so excited. As I told above: is any of you enjoying flying P.11 in IL2? Is any of you flying it on 1x1 for example? And this is fast compared to WWI planes LOL

Anyway, as I already said: you never know what will come. Maybe I'll be more thrilled than you in the end \:D
Dolph I think you underestimate the numbers of ex RB types here. Lowengrin of DCG fame was once more famous for his excellent 3rd party Aircraft he created for RB3D.
I'm dead excited, this is what I've been waiting for, a 21 century WWI flight sim.
My old RFC uniform is out of mothballs and waiting for me. Just get me a Camel and this war will be over by Christmas.

and, LOL, if you think the flame wars here are bad, anyone remember the "Climb like a monkey" war on the Delphi board...where's Von Helton \:D

This is going to be great!!
Posted By: Petter Böckman

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 11:16 AM

Oh man, this is something I've been waiting for! I love the biplanes IL2 allready have, and I'm constantly making WWI missions for them, but Gladiator and U2's won't beat the real thing.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 11:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dolph:
hehehehehe, maybe you are right guys, but if the modelling is like it should be (slow planes), then I'm not so sure that I'll be so excited. As I told above: is any of you enjoying flying P.11 in IL2? Is any of you flying it on 1x1 for example? And this is fast compared to WWI planes LOL
Well, the airbases were usually about ten-twenty kilometers apart on either side of the trenches, and the air battles took place at low altitudes, so there shouldn't be much waiting and traversing empty space, as compared to Il-2 et al.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dolph:
the modelling is like it should be (slow planes), then I'm not so sure that I'll be so excited. As I told above: is any of you enjoying flying P.11 in IL2? Is any of you flying it on 1x1 for example? And this is fast compared to WWI planes LOL, BTW, any news on 1C's BoB?
I've always felt that because the aircraft of WW1 operate at airspeeds so much lower than the WW2 variety, the game engine could use much more of its power to due "other" things.

The level of detail for the a/c and ground objects could make PF look like RBII \:D , and the ground action could be a very active, integral part of the sim. Fancy sound effects eat up a fair bit of power, but again this could be emphasized in the game.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Flyfinn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 01:06 PM

Hi.. \:D


http://www.airwar.ru/enc_e/fww1/camel.html

Look at the Sopwith Camels armament..

4 11,3 kilos bombs... ;\)

looking forward to this sim..been flying Ians hungary missions with Fiat cr42..good fun..

Booom..!!!
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 01:25 PM

Where were all the modelers and interst 2 years ago when we tried to do it then? All we needed then was more modelers and it would have been free. I guess it is the real world and folks want to get paid and do what they want,and timing is everything. All of the sudden we go from no recent WWI sim to 3. There is the Over Flanders Field mod (looking good if you ask me), the Thirdwire sim and now this. Good to have choices, but will this make it out of the Russian market? Last I recall that was an UbI decesssion.
Posted By: IceFire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 01:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dolph:
Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dolph:
Well...will it actually be interesting?
I mean, is any of you enjoying flying IL2's biplanes?

Personally, I don't think I'll be interested, though you never know what will come \:D
Heh. The day a decent WWI comes out I'm backing to strapping on a Spad or DH-2 and I'm done with these high faluting aircraft with their raised landing gear and closed cockpits.

Real men flew the Re-8. I mean only real men would fly and aircraft with only 5mph difference between max speed and stall speed right?
hehehehehe, maybe you are right guys, but if the modelling is like it should be (slow planes), then I'm not so sure that I'll be so excited. As I told above: is any of you enjoying flying P.11 in IL2? Is any of you flying it on 1x1 for example? And this is fast compared to WWI planes LOL

Anyway, as I already said: you never know what will come. Maybe I'll be more thrilled than you in the end \:D

BTW, any news on 1C's BoB?
The answer is yes...the P.11, the Cr.42 and the Gladiator (J8A) are a blast to fly, they are flown in some places on some servers, and they are a boatload of fun.

Its sometimes nice to slow down and appreciate things in a different perspective. You focus alot more on co-ordinating your turns, loops, and other aerobatic moves more than you would in a FW190 where you want to avoid aerobatic sillyness \:\)
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 02:03 PM

Make no mistake WWI combat is still very much about energy.
Posted By: VF-2 John Banks

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 02:11 PM

I hope it wont face the same fate as KOE.
If it is based on the IL2 engine, it will probably have the same weird FM and DM anomalies as PF? These WW1 planes had heavy torque and where tricky to fly...definitely not the strong point of this engine.
Posted By: csThor

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 02:14 PM

Since the game is probably a standalone I don't see the same problem as with FB/PF - it won't have too many planes to display with the current FM matrix (which is the problem with FB/PF according to Oleg).
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 02:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by VF-2 John Banks:
If it is based on the IL2 engine, it will probably have the same weird FM and DM anomalies as PF? These WW1 planes had heavy torque and where tricky to fly...definitely not the strong point of this engine.
Compared to which other (infinitely better, I guess) engine?
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 02:39 PM

VIKS, here's a thread where we discussed a WWI sim last year:

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=007040#000011

My first posting in that thread....

---------

Verdammt! - I vant a World War 1 Sim Oleg-style and I want it NOW! Ja!

posted February 03, 2004 20:53

Why oh why has he said he doesn't want to make it?

No FM data?

Oleg! - No FM data = NO TROUBLE for you!!

You will be able to fine-tune the planes to (almost) your liking and make an eminently playable sim if you want. Nobody will be banging you on the head with roll-rate this and cockpit bar that. Just give us some nice FM's that enable historical tactics and get us as close as possible to the anecdotic evidence from WWI.
- Your bet will be as good as ours as for FM, so no need for patches and all that jazz.

I'm no good at Boom and Zoom and I find it rather boring as well... "Come back, I want to fight, don't fly away..." - No, turn and Burn is what I know and that's what WWI will be all about!

Also, the planes are incredible beautiful, just imagine making skins for WWI! - no matter how gaudy, it won't be out of place in the Richthofen Zirkus!

The fighting will be UP and CLOSE. All the wires and bracing and wheels and scared gunners with scarves and goggles will look amazing through a gunsight. We NOW have the computers for the incredible visual experience of 20-50 m. dogfight distances.

Damage modelling. Don't get me started! - Planes catching fire and smoking, yes, we have that in WWII as well, but just imagine what more we will have in WWI. Planes CRUMPLING! And not just crumpling, but shredding, disintegrating, with canvas buffeting and blood spurting from severed jugulars, all in glorious close-up!

Dynamic Campaign? - Ha! No need for it, the fronts were as static as they could be. One problem less.

But, talking about the fronts. - Amazing visuals again! - A scar across the landscape: Mud, trenches and barbed wire. Artillery barrages, gas attacks, fires and explosions and poor little grunts that we can fly high above, we, the Knights of the Sky! It'll be amazing to fly over the WWI frontlines and there will be no boring long missions, just dogfights a few km. away from home base.

Engine management, prop pitch, fuel mixture? - Well, I'll happily live without it, and that's what I'll do in a WWI sim. Pure fighting and no fiddling. - Nice, should be attractive to the masses!

And then all the extras. Long-range Gothas over London, Zeppelins (!) and the first carrier take-offs of the Royal Navy. Ilya Mourometz and strange Capronis and a host of other bizarre and wonderful planes.

(Well, if London is too complicated to model, then no sweat, the trenches of WWI were mostly far away from big cities, one problem less there)

Finally there's just the GLORY of WWI air fighting. No terrible ideologies (except for your widely held, run-of-the-mill imperialism), no national markings that we CAN'T put in, no carpet bombing and firestorms, just heroic jousts in the heavens where the best man may win.

(No wimpy chutes either...) ;\)

OK, if anybody should doubt it: I REALLY want Oleg to make a WWI flight sim!

P-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-lease!! \:\)

Whaddaya guys think? - Have I convinced you, or were you already converts?

- Freycinet
Posted By: WWSandMan

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 02:49 PM

Sure hope this one makes it to the store shelves...
Posted By: Barkhorn1x

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 03:01 PM

This is good news!!

And the don't forget about the Third Wire effort that should comr out early next year.

Here are some of the latest dev. shots:




Barkhorn.
Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 03:16 PM

To those thinking that a lack of FM data means no arguments....ROFL! The FM debates in RB2/3D and other WW1 efforts make the FM debates in WW2 sims look like children pretending to argue. On the contrary, when there is little data the emotional ties to perceptions are about a million times stronger than any ones ties to WW2 charts.

Hehe, sorry, just makes me chuckle. No, the upcoming FM debates on a WWI sim will make all previous debates sim like nothing more than minor differences of opinion on insignificant items.

Hell, I remember a long heated debate on Delphi of nearly 700 posts just srguing over the shade of color on a DVII lozenge!

Someone asked if I fly the slow bi-planes in IL2. Absolutely! Every chance I get. WW2 has always, and will always be a temporary fix for my virtual combat flying jones until a good WWI sim comes along.

I quit flying RB3D because I simply kept running into too many technical issues and lack of server options to hold my interest for online play, but I still have on my system and still roll out on a sortie or two offline using a Glide emulator and the Full Canvas Jacket patch.

Had Sierra/Dynamix come out with an Red Baron 4 with it's campaign system and updated, modern graphics and more aircraft I never would have bothered even trying the demo of IL2.

Give you any indication of where my interest lies? \:\)
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 03:20 PM

Yeah, Sensei, but there is less of a problem for the sim programmers if no-one can come up with performance data, but just anecdotical evidence.

Got to say that those screenies from the Third Wire effort aren't too impressive. Anyway, they are development screenies, I know.

On the Fokker Dr.1 model of the Gennadich team, the thickness of the rear control surfaces looks exaggerated. I mean, they should basically taper to a fine rear edge, shouldn't they?
http://www.gennadich.com/img/dev/scr7+.jpg ??
http://www.gennadich.com/img/dev/scr3.jpg ??
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 03:51 PM

I'm more excited about the OFF mod for CFS3 than the thirdwire. No good track ir support in the TW version.

Some OFF shots:

http://off.oldbrowndog.net/




Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 04:28 PM

Freycinet, no most control surfaces in WWI did not taper to a fine edge. \:\) Remember they were dealing with wood and canvas, not metal...
Posted By: Polovski

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 05:46 PM

The more WW1 sims we have the better in my book

Here's more recent shots of over Flanders Fields mod..


edited for size woops sorry

more...

http://www.polovski.com/off/Nov_update/Off-Nov12th.html
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 05:48 PM

auch, could you guys re-size those pics, hard to read anything in here...
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 06:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ArgonV:
Freycinet, no most control surfaces in WWI did not taper to a fine edge. \:\) Remember they were dealing with wood and canvas, not metal...
Many of the trailing edges were wire. That is why you see scalloped trailing edges.
Posted By: Lowengrin

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 06:39 PM

The CFS3 mod and the Third Wire game will be nice additions to the WW1 arena but neither have the on-line capabilities that IL-2 FB has. So I'll be putting my money on the FB sequel.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 06:55 PM

Not just on-line capabilities but:

1) damage modelling

2) FM modelling

3) Stability of code

... - Let's face it: the Il-2FB code kicks @ss when it comes to combat flightsimming.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ArgonV:
Freycinet, no most control surfaces in WWI did not taper to a fine edge. \:\) Remember they were dealing with wood and canvas, not metal...
OK, I didn't think it was necessary to corroborate this with photos, but here goes:

http://www.collectors-edition.com/f-t-s_zeichnungen_drI_titelbild.gif

http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww1/technika/repules/tipusok/fokker_dr1_6.jpg

http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww1/technika/repules/tipusok/fokker_dr1_1.jpg

http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww1/technika/repules/tipusok/fokker_dr1_4.jpg

http://www.aviation-militaire.com/Galerie/Paris_Elysees_98/018_01P.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Fokker_Dr1_on_the_ground.jpg

- the Fokker Dr. 1 definitely did NOT have big fat control surfaces. They tapered to a fine point, and were nothing like that Gennadich 3D-model.
Posted By: LE Heureux

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 07:09 PM

This board definitely isn't like the ones frequented by us Red Baron 3d junkies...but I bet you'd like flying the old planes in the Great Air War. Great dog fights and closing speeds that permit you to see your adversary.

No 105 dit: >>At least 2 promising wwI cfs since the days of RB3D never saw the light of day. I hope this one makes it.>>

My thoughts exactly.

Au revoir en l'air,
LE~Heureux~sLt
Esc124
"Lafayette"
Posted By: Ronbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 07:16 PM

thanks Sensei, you put it more to the point about
debates on FMs. i just didnt want to go there.. at least here it seems the FM debates are more cordial, espcially now. Never really happened with RB.

as for the 'climbs like a monkey', that wasnt just von helton..

I agree with Low, Il2 would be a better platform to bridge between ww1 of Rb3 and todays technology.

as to Olegs(?) comment on not worrying about dynamic campaign, that isnt true! the lines were static for alot of the war, but having flights generated and not scripted is the best way to enjoy the air war and keep people interested for years to come. that is why Rb3d has endured, plus projects like Full Canvas Jacket to give it new life. Im sure the Old Rb3D community, if Il2/ww1 is done correctly, will come and make it flourish.
Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 07:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
[QB] Yeah, Sensei, but there is less of a problem for the sim programmers if no-one can come up with performance data, but just anecdotical evidence.
Been there, done that with my own efforts at a WWI sim. Having only anecdotal evidence leads to far more arguments than having facts sheets. I admire the effort being done here but to think having no data makes it easier, trust me, it does the exact opposite. Lacking hard evidence doesn't make them argue less. It makes them argue more.

No matter what approach a developer takes they will almost certainly tee-off a vocal portion of the community and there is little to no evidence to prove them wrong or you right. I've seen happen in every attempt so far.

Oleg was right to be cautious of this era of flight. The FM debates in IL2 will be thought of as a cake walk in comparison.
Posted By: Paajtor

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 08:19 PM

"As close as it gets" is good enough for me. \:D
Posted By: gambit_168

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 09:58 PM

Hey that DR1 looks So good that it made me fire up Wings of war, for a quick Fix , but i just lov that game, with all the mods in it, its a hoot, i will fly my own barons DR1, until theres comes out
http://server2.uploadit.org/files/gambit168-baron.jpg
Posted By: IceFire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 10:01 PM

Just incase anyone else wanted some reference on these aircraft...I found a good site!

http://www.theaerodrome.com/

It seems to have all the major types of WWI fighters and bombers plus some statistics.

I think as far as making FM's go...you find out how much horsepower, the power and wingloading, weight, and a bunch of other things and plug them in and see where you get. Some anecdotal evidence ontop of that and you're probably good to go.

The one advantage is that fewer people know about reputations of WWI aircraft...none of them are really as iconic as the Spitfire and 109 (although the Sopwith Camel and Fokker Dr.I seem to be close).

The other thing being that I've seen a few of these types in the air and recently! The Brantford Ontario WWI Flying Club (not sure if thats the full official name) maintains and flies replica WWI aircraft (I forget which ones). There must be enough documents for them to get off the ground and fly the bloody things...

I think its not going to be a huge problem.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:
Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
[QB] Yeah, Sensei, but there is less of a problem for the sim programmers if no-one can come up with performance data, but just anecdotical evidence.
Been there, done that with my own efforts at a WWI sim. Having only anecdotal evidence leads to far more arguments than having facts sheets. I admire the effort being done here but to think having no data makes it easier, trust me, it does the exact opposite. Lacking hard evidence doesn't make them argue less. It makes them argue more.

No matter what approach a developer takes they will almost certainly tee-off a vocal portion of the community and there is little to no evidence to prove them wrong or you right. I've seen happen in every attempt so far.

Oleg was right to be cautious of this era of flight. The FM debates in IL2 will be thought of as a cake walk in comparison.
I'm sure there will be debates: my point is that FM's won't have to be changed incessantly, because the developers' guesstimate will be as good as that of the various fan groups...
Posted By: RocketDog

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 10:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
- the Fokker Dr. 1 definitely did NOT have big fat control surfaces. They tapered to a fine point, and were nothing like that Gennadich 3D-model. [/QB]
Freycinet is quite correct. Aircraft like the Dr. I used a wire trailing edge attached to wooden ribs. Under the tension of the doped fabric covering, the wire was pulled in a bit which gave the classic scalloped trailing edge of Fokker (and some other) aircraft of this Period.

Cheers,

RocketDog.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 10:56 PM

The Fokker Triplane looks great, and we'll keep our eyes open for the weekly updates to come! \:\)

Oh btw, the Fokker Dr.I's rudder frame was made from 12mm rounded steel tubing, while the the horizontal stabilizer was from 15mm stock, and elevator's outline came from 10mm diameter tubing.

The Fokker triplane's tailplane was not wire-edged.
Posted By: RocketDog

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 11:01 PM

Fast work FlyX! - you added that before I could edit in a note to say that the tail surfaces didn't use a wire trailing edge, only the main wings.

Somewhere I have a stack of Windsock profiles of all sorts of interesting WWI a/c. I'll try to dig some out and scan them. Fascinating machines.

Cheers,

RocketDog.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketDog:

Fascinating machines.
Indeed!

Paul Leaman's book Fokker Dr.I Triplane: A World War One Legend is probably the best, though the Windsocks are good too, especially for line drawings and paint schemes.

Here's an airframe photo from Achim Engel's Fokker Dr.I In Detail CD:

Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/12/05 11:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
I'm sure there will be debates: my point is that FM's won't have to be changed incessantly, because the developers' guesstimate will be as good as that of the various fan groups...
Just look to the RB3D world and you might understand how you couldn't be more wrong. Dynamix changed the FM significantly in every patch until they finally walked away from the project.

The FM has been changed and tweaked so many times due to so many opinions it isn't uncommon for people to have several versions installed with different FMs.

One of the last utilities to be written was one that made swapping out FMs easier to do.

As I said, been there and done that. If you really believe lack of data is going to make the problem easier all I can say is you are ignoring nearly 10 years of sim history.

Quote:
I think as far as making FM's go...you find out how much horsepower, the power and wingloading, weight, and a bunch of other things and plug them in and see where you get. Some anecdotal evidence ontop of that and you're probably good to go.
Yeah, right. That approach has worked great in squelching all the FM debate in IL2 right? Let's start with the first two most well known WWI aircraft--The Triplane and the Camel. Just on the variables you mentioned there are sources that differ on each one of those factors by as much as 50 percent. Sorry, but just look at ANY flight sim where the data is much better and that naive approach has done ZERO to squelch the debates and whining and forcing of a developer to cave in to someone.

I hope these guys do well as I very much want to see a WWI sim. But thinking it's going to be easy and lack of data make the FM wars go away is just being extremly naive and short sighted. There is a much larger fan base for these aircraft--with their own opinions--than you think.
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 12:02 AM

This product will NEVER see the light of day.
Posted By: Ronbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 12:05 AM

The aerodrome is a very good site, no doubt about it. but for different reasons. there is more to developing FM's than just wieghts and wing area. the aerodrome is more for general coverage of ww1 flight. the forum there is the real meat as many ww1 historians frequent there. answering and posing questions of a wide variety of topics.

even if that site had all the variables we needed, there are other sources that will state differently. that has been proven time and again for discussions on ww1 crates.

if the developers of the next ww1 sim could spend time calculating and verifying the handling, speed and climb rates of the current replica aircraft, much of the debate would stop. but, that hasnt happened yet.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 01:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:

I hope these guys do well as I very much want to see a WWI sim. But thinking it's going to be easy and lack of data make the FM wars go away is just being extremly naive and short sighted. There is a much larger fan base for these aircraft--with their own opinions--than you think.
The Il-2 series has managed to keep the FM programming secret. It's quite unheard of in sim history, but the Il-2 series has actually not had anybody crack the FM code and make their own.

I know about the old history you refer to, but given the history of the Il-2 series, I think we won't see a fragmented community, FM-wise, with this new WWI sim.

I don't see FM improvements as a bad thing when they're imposed across-the-board with all users who download the latest patch, the problem is a fractured fan base, and that I think we can avoid, based on the Il-2 engine history.

In the il-2 update history I don't see the developers swinging around according to the whims of a majority of users. Rather, they've just corrected proven errors and added features to the FM.

There will be a lot less "proven errors" in a WWI sim, just because hard data is so much more difficult to come by, so I think there will be less discussions involving the developers, but of course there will be huge discussions among fans, that's a given when it comes to these sims.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 01:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
This product will NEVER see the light of day.
Wauw, you're just exuding positive energy, aren't you? :rolleyes:
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 01:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:

Here's an airframe photo from Achim Engel's Fokker Dr.I In Detail CD:

Great photo, showing that the rudder edge diameter is nothing like that shown in the Gennadich 3D-model.
Posted By: Hawkw1nd

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 01:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
This product will NEVER see the light of day.
Wauw, you're just exuding positive energy, aren't you? :rolleyes:
\:D
Posted By: IceFire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 01:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:
Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
I'm sure there will be debates: my point is that FM's won't have to be changed incessantly, because the developers' guesstimate will be as good as that of the various fan groups...
Just look to the RB3D world and you might understand how you couldn't be more wrong. Dynamix changed the FM significantly in every patch until they finally walked away from the project.

The FM has been changed and tweaked so many times due to so many opinions it isn't uncommon for people to have several versions installed with different FMs.

One of the last utilities to be written was one that made swapping out FMs easier to do.

As I said, been there and done that. If you really believe lack of data is going to make the problem easier all I can say is you are ignoring nearly 10 years of sim history.

Quote:
I think as far as making FM's go...you find out how much horsepower, the power and wingloading, weight, and a bunch of other things and plug them in and see where you get. Some anecdotal evidence ontop of that and you're probably good to go.
Yeah, right. That approach has worked great in squelching all the FM debate in IL2 right? Let's start with the first two most well known WWI aircraft--The Triplane and the Camel. Just on the variables you mentioned there are sources that differ on each one of those factors by as much as 50 percent. Sorry, but just look at ANY flight sim where the data is much better and that naive approach has done ZERO to squelch the debates and whining and forcing of a developer to cave in to someone.

I hope these guys do well as I very much want to see a WWI sim. But thinking it's going to be easy and lack of data make the FM wars go away is just being extremly naive and short sighted. There is a much larger fan base for these aircraft--with their own opinions--than you think.
My point is ...who cares what everyone is going to whine about. There are several constants:

1) People will complain
2) No matter how well documented, even if its ironclad, written in stone, people will whine
3) People will whine, complain, and bicker

There are few times where I will get myself into a FM debate. Most of the time, the issues in question are subjective and part of the limitations of PC sim modeling. While I know a thing or two about a Spitfire or a FW190 in how they perform...I cannot say much the same about the early WWI aircraft other than a vague generality.

We'll see what happens but I don't think this would detract from the fantastic notion of a updated, modern, and complex FM WWI biplane sim.
Posted By: No105_Ogdens

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 02:15 AM

We'll see this one in 2009...one year after the release of Olegs BoB! \:\)
Posted By: Badsight

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 04:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
This product will NEVER see the light of day.
you honestly think that Tolwyn ?
Posted By: Badsight

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 05:01 AM

i havent kept up with the modding of the PC version of "Wings of War"

ive only played the Xbox version & even that on just the Xbox is a super fun game with fantastic scenery

those CFS3 WW1 mod screenshots have such fantastic clouds , & some look to have great ground scenery as well , like this one :
http://off.oldbrowndog.net/images/0205/OFFWeather12.JPG
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 05:49 AM

Unfortunately yes.
I'd bet GOOD money on it.


Quote:
Originally posted by Badsight:
Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
This product will NEVER see the light of day.
you honestly think that Tolwyn ?
Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 05:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
Unfortunately yes.
I'd bet GOOD money on it.


Quote:
Originally posted by Badsight:
Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
This product will NEVER see the light of day.
you honestly think that Tolwyn ?
I'll take that bet.

If it dosn't come out I'll never post at SimHQ again.

If it does come out You never post at SimHQ again.

Deal?
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 06:00 AM

Crop, I'd give you $100 US right now if you'd stop humping my leg.

FACT.
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 06:01 AM

I'll THEN give you $100 if it comes out. You give me $100 when it's cancelled.

My ONLY stipulation: It has to be distributed in western markets. Meaning the US (in addition to any other market).

Deal? Print this.
Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 06:07 AM

No.

Put your money where your mouth is.

Nice edit addon stipulation btw.
Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 06:34 AM

Besides why would they bother with an english develpment site/fourm along with their Russian site/forum if it wasn't going to be released in the west?
Posted By: Dantes

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 07:28 AM

All I have to say is: YES!!!!!! ;\)

S!
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 07:53 AM

Put my money where YOUR mouth is, you mean.

I'll bet you $100 US that it won't see the light of day in the US market. You backing out, Ottawa Joe?
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 07:55 AM

I'm from the US, by the way, so the assumption is I MEAN the US markets. That such a stretch, Crop?
Posted By: Hawkw1nd

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 08:03 AM

Posted By: Frankenstein

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 08:44 AM

I have a deep interest in WW2 aviation, but I'm a WW1 junkie at heart...

If they put it out, I'll buy it!
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 09:20 AM

How about you two, CD and tolwyn, just agree to not adress each other or reply to each other? You'd ruin less threads with your b!tchin'.

Anyway, I dearly hope it will come out in the Western market, but let's see. This is the best shot at a WWI combat sim I've seen so far, in recent times, so I really hope to be able to buy it.

That the development team chooses to do the Western Front also seems to indicate that they have an ambition to put it out in the West. Guess they were inspired by Ilya and his Pacific Fighters, so that probably means that he did indeed make some money on it... ;\) (OK, speculating here...)

Just imagine if this sim becomes a succes and spawns add-ons like the Eastern Front (Russian 4-engine bombers!) and the Southern front, with Austrian and Italian planes (Caproni bombers, the US bought those!) struggling over the Alps to fight each other. That would be wonderful! "Forgotten Battles of WWI"! \:\)
Posted By: Abledog

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
"Forgotten Battles of WWI"!
Posted By: Kamikuza

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 12:21 PM

5 pages in a few days ... had to be an argument \:\)
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 12:24 PM

Why debate the undetermined future........join the GT forums (and lend some positive energy to the process):

GT\'s World War I: Knights Of The Sky forum

Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 02:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronbo:
if the developers of the next ww1 sim could spend time calculating and verifying the handling, speed and climb rates of the current replica aircraft, much of the debate would stop. but, that hasnt happened yet.
I'm really not sure that you can tell that much from the performance of replica's, especially of WW1 aircraft.

Rather than spending all their time tweaking flight models that the numbers crowd will never agree on anyway, I'd rather the dev's spend time on the campaign engine, weather and terrain gfx. I wan't to fly my Se5 in a believeable world.

As IL2 and Lock On show, realistic flight models are only part of the package. I don't like the current trend towards sterile purely technical simulations, we need a teturn to gameplay.
Posted By: Slap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 02:26 PM

Fantastic news!

WW1 flying is just what my psychiatrist has prescribed.

Good luck and God speed!

S!ap
Posted By: Ronbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 02:40 PM

I disagree completely. the replicas are far and above more accurate than anyone plugging in numbers from a wide variety of sources. the planes are, for the most part, accurate representations of the original.
there are enough replicas of each of the major types than with enough source material, the rest 'should' get close.
FMs are not the only thing a sim has to offer. as i eluded to by using the Il2 engine and dynamic vs canned missions, the whole package has to be considered in order for the sim to stay alive years beyond others. more fun for us, and more profit for the designers/owners.
although, at this stage, if the planes fly like planes, recieve damage and give damage realistically and 'feel' close, plus the gameplay, ill support it!
Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 03:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
How about you two, CD and tolwyn, just agree to not adress each other or reply to each other? You'd ruin less threads with your b!tchin'.

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
This product will NEVER see the light of day.
Wauw, you're just exuding positive energy, aren't you? :rolleyes:
Posted By: Slap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 03:39 PM

Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 06:43 PM

So discussion is growing

As about:
- yes, Freycinet is right - control surface edges must be much thinner than on the screenshots, and they will be, the model on screenshot is aint finished yet and its just a try for what the game engine can;
- as about FM, cant say nothing about how it will look like or tell about realism of it, but the man who work over GT sim FM now, is the same one who made AFM for LockOn`s Su25/25T, and no doubt - he know what he doin

S!
Posted By: commorange

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 06:51 PM

Please Lock this thread. We cant even agree on FM's and DM's for aircraft of the relatively recent WW2 ,
and we hope to have accurate planes for WW1 ??
This idea needs to be scrapped before too many precious resources are lost.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 07:38 PM

Gee FW, why don't you just quit reading and posting here so that those of us that LOVE the idea can hope and dream in peace. \:D

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Li'lJugs

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 08:11 PM

Hi!
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 09:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
So discussion is growing

As about:
- yes, Freycinet is right - control surface edges must be much thinner than on the screenshots, and they will be, the model on screenshot is aint finished yet and its just a try for what the game engine can;
- as about FM, cant say nothing about how it will look like or tell about realism of it, but the man who work over GT sim FM now, is the same one who made AFM for LockOn`s Su25/25T, and no doubt - he know what he doin

S!
OK, sounds good re: the model. That will be the first of many complaints from overzealous fans, just get ready for it! \:\)

BTW, the model looks truly gorgeous, fantastic skin job there, much better than what we've seen from other WWI sims that people work on at the moment. I have no doubt that the Gennadich sim will blow the competition out of the water, given your Il-2 pedigree. (So, expectations are high too! ;\) )

Regarding the damage model, I think it is very important to have quite a significant change from Il-2, namely that the planes will not just fall apart in many pieces, but will be able to crumple. I don't know how it should be done, but WWI planes were made of wire and lacquered textiles, so the damage model should reflect this, i.e. have some crumpling (wings folding up and staying attached to the plane, etc). I guess it will be a b!tch to program, though... But crumpling is a must, also since WWI planes very often suffered structural failure and just fell out of the sky. Also burning should eat away at the structure...

Regarding the guy who will work on the FM...
- Wauw, that sounds pretty good!
Posted By: Ronbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/13/05 11:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
[qb]
Regarding the damage model, I think it is very important to have quite a significant change from Il-2, namely that the planes will not just fall apart in many pieces, but will be able to crumple. I don't know how it should be done, but WWI planes were made of wire and lacquered textiles, so the damage model should reflect this, i.e. have some crumpling (wings folding up and staying attached to the plane, etc). I guess it will be a b!tch to program, though... But crumpling is a must, also since WWI planes very often suffered structural failure and just fell out of the sky.
Wooden planes covered in canvas dont 'crumple'. That effect was done on RB2/3D.
Canvas would rip away if shot up enough, splinters etc. Mostly, no effect unless a spar, control cables/pulleys, engine, pilot, etc were hit. 'Crumpling' is not a must.
WW1 planes just didnt suffer structral failure as a whole. Depends on the plane. spads, Fokker D7, Se5as could dive close to 200mph and still hold together. Nieports and albatros fighter could warp the lower wings and break is true, but many stories have them diving at a good clip before failure.
Posted By: Double_Tap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 12:16 AM

Wow, this is the best news I have heard in ages. A marriage of the IL-2 engine and WW1 is bound to be a great success.
I still refuse to get excited till I see the bloodied sheet in the morning. WW1 has been left blubering at the alter too many times.

=FB=VikS and Co. I wish you every success. Try not to please everyone. If you listen carefully you can hear the wind being sucked in while people draw breath to announce their 'must have' inclusions. Hell knows I have my list ready to fire. Stay focused. Remember Aesop's fable of the men and the donkey. ;\)
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 03:05 AM

The ONLY reason I posted that is if I don't believe in it... it will come true. If I get all excited about it, I'll be disappointed.

Self-inflicted reverse psychology. But then crop started humping my leg. Must have had too many drinks.
Posted By: Lemon

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 03:13 AM

No chance of a new campaign engine?
Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 06:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
The ONLY reason I posted that is if I don't believe in it... it will come true. If I get all excited about it, I'll be disappointed.

Self-inflicted reverse psychology. But then crop started humping my leg. Must have had too many drinks.
Weak.

Very weak.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?"
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 07:20 AM

See?
He's on my leg again.
The guy can't leave me alone. Seriously... Crop. Why do you attach yourself to people? Why do you cling so tightly? Let go. Leave us alone. Seriously. I should be charging you for this.
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 07:21 AM

By the way. The $100 bet still stands. You taking it or are you all hump—talk and no real action?
Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 07:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
By the way. The $100 bet still stands. You taking it or are you all hump—talk and no real action?
Your not that important or worth $100 you weak troll.
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 07:37 AM

Oh no!
Crop has doth called me a troll!

I put forth an opinion, and Crop must slash it down! Oh crop. what shall I do? Ottowa Joe, please spare me.

Normally, this is the response you'd expect from someone that has run out of ammunition to debate with.

Kinda typical playbook style, eh, Crop?

Get off my leg, man. Either play ball or get off the field.
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 07:41 AM

I'm REALLY tired of dealing with people like you... on all forums.

You get banned from just about every forum you attempt to join... and it's ALWAYS for the same reasons. It's sort of entertaining at first, but after a while it just becomes really really tiresome. I mean the physical kind of tiresome. Where one makes themselves dizzy shaking their head at the antics.

Pepole call your bluff, and you just kind of back away. Why is that, Croppy? $100 is yours to grasp. You started this by your response.

I'm going to get in the habit of responding to replies put forth by you. The constant "backing away" I hope establishes the pattern.

Right or wrong, I will always respond to people like you.
Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 07:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
This product will NEVER see the light of day.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
I'm REALLY tired of dealing with people like you... on all forums.

All people are fed up with dealing with people with the likes of YOU!

Go look at your original post in this thread. A one line zinger with no point or or reason for your comment.

Then you post this payola troll

Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
Unfortunately yes.
I'd bet GOOD money on it.
Again you post a comment with no reason or point

And I called your bluff on it

Then you repost with conditions on your bet

Get lost loser troll.

SimHQ is NOT CWoS.

BTW your preformance in this thread shows all what you really are....

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=144;t=001612;p=7
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 10:47 AM

If it is anywhere near the quality of IL2 series I will buy it.....there is little competition in the WWI flight sim area. A WWI mod of CFS3 should be out long before then but I'm thinking it may be as buggy as the original....hope not.
Posted By: Hawkw1nd

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 11:23 AM

Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 04:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tAA_Double_Tap:
Wow, this is the best news I have heard in ages. A marriage of the IL-2 engine and WW1 is bound to be a great success.
I still refuse to get excited till I see the bloodied sheet in the morning. WW1 has been left blubering at the alter too many times.

=FB=VikS and Co. I wish you every success. Try not to please everyone. If you listen carefully you can hear the wind being sucked in while people draw breath to announce their 'must have' inclusions. Hell knows I have my list ready to fire. Stay focused. Remember Aesop's fable of the men and the donkey. ;\)
Let's just ignore the last couple of postings, before izan's...

Double-tap, those are wise words indeed: it is very true that the development team should stick to their ideas and aspirations. That is definitely the basis for getting a product out of the door.

As for the campaign system. I don't think the WWI scenario really begs for moving frontlines, etc. Of course some progress in a pilot career, etc, but I don't see that drastic improvements over Il-2FB are needed in this aspect.

There are other subtle ways to improve immersion; music, cut scenes, etc, but I really want a great flying sim, not an interactive movie. My imagination takes well care of that! \:\)
Posted By: Manuc

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 04:06 PM

Fokker Dr.I can outturn everything !

...and I want a Junkers J1 for ground attack !
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 04:36 PM

I'm sorry to hear that the sim-date planned for start is 1916 - I was looking forward to aiming my Webley with the mouse \:D - if you can score a PK, you are HOT stuff !

Eindekkers would have been nice, but I'll greedily take any WWI fix that comes my way - and based on IL2 means it will be starting from a baseline of "very very good".
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 04:57 PM

It makes sense to begin with 1916-18, since the yanks will be there and the planes will have higher performance. With pre-1916 planes, some people might be shocked to have to nurse early-war planes around the sky in feeble turns and dives, to keep them from falling apart (which they did!).
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 05:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
It makes sense to begin with 1916-18, since the yanks will be there and the planes will have higher performance. With pre-1916 planes, some people might be shocked to have to nurse early-war planes around the sky in feeble turns and dives, to keep them from falling apart (which they did!).
I think people will be shocked anyways. Try flying the biplanes we now have around the sky at ~100mph.

The Camel with the Clerget 140hp motor took 8.5 minutes to reach 10,000ft and 15.75 minutes to reach 15,000ft.

The above from Chaz Boyer's Sopwith Camel - King of Combat. ISBN 0-946627-49-5
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 05:05 PM

No conditions, Crop.
Just location-centric. I'm from the US. It will never see the light of day in the US. Much like the possibility the russian addons will not see the light of day... in the US.

Not a condition, just being a bit more specific. If THAT is what you're holding on to for dear life, I'm sad for you.

If you'd like to have the bet without the condition, that's fine. \:\) I'll offer it. NOW are you interested?

PS: Light of day means as a bona fide product. Not a tech demo or something equally mundane.

I'm not bluffing. I've offered now 3 times for you to take my friendly wager, and you won't. And my first post you assigned the tone to it, would it have helped if I put in a smiley?

You do know what sarcasm paired with cynicism and reverse psychology mean, right?

\:D
Posted By: Papa_K

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 05:21 PM

The purity of it (WWI flying) is the biggest attraction for me.

It's already been said, but WWI aircraft are probably more suited to computer gaming (IMO).

Lower closing velocities = more time between seeing just a dot and getting to a merge - Being able to see the other guy's aspect earlier to maneuver against him.

Hope it's got full Track IR support too.

I'd guess skipping 1915 is also to avoid the Eindecker - the whining from the other side might be non-stop during the Fokker Scourge.

\:D Papa_K
Posted By: Redwolf2

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 05:30 PM

Well, besides the WWI sim being discussed here, Over Flanders Field mod ( http://www.off.oldbrowndog.net/index.htm ), and TK's effort ( http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2003 ), there is also this one in the works too: http://www.d-strict.com/

Looks like some great WWI goodness ahead! \:D
Posted By: DoubleUgly

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 07:42 PM

LMAO at Slap!

Dude, have you noticed that you are the only one that is nekid?

OK, somebody else get nekid to make Slap feel better ... OK, thanks for helping Ming.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 08:07 PM

'kay, I'm in!
Posted By: dude163

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/14/05 09:46 PM

Tolwyn, Crop

knock it off, or take it to PMs please
Posted By: Ricob

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 02:48 AM

With OFF, Third Wire and GT all in the WW1 game I'm feeling pretty good about one, some, or all making it to the finish line. If they all do... I will support them all. Still one of my most memorable moments in computer gaming was the first time I played RB. There is just something about the up close and personal dance of WW1 dogfight
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 04:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
Also, the flyable SPAD XIII should come in very handy, plane-wise.
Man, I can hear it from the t&b'ers already... "oh sure, run away b&z woosies... why not come back and turn fight me like a real man" ;\)

Still... can't wait.
Posted By: Dart

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 04:45 AM

I'm in.

All the fun of WWI with the FM fidelity of the IL-2 series? Yeah, baby!

Not being a serious FM sort of fellow, so long as the Camel has wicked torque, a blipping engine, the Snipe good maneuverability (but not a lot of power) and the DH-2 lives up to it's name as the "whirling incenerator" I'm happy.

Red Baron was the first sim that really, really interested me, and Red Bareon 3D (RB3D) completely captured me for a couple of years, especially since online play became reasonable right about the time it hit it's prime.

The upsides of RB3D were the online play, the fun of WWI, and - above all else - the online community that came with it. Indeed, I flew the sim for the last six months not because it was fun so much as I didn't want to let go of the great friends I made there. Indeed, the BA in my nick here is from those days when I was an RFC 101 "Black Adder."

The downsides was the open FM/DM, and the technology getting away from Glide. I'm not disparaging the fine work done by the community one bit, but I suffered greatly from FM confusion towards the end, which sucked the joy out of flying for me. Am I flying NFM (Normal Flight Model), Flanders in Flames (FiF), or the Great War flight model? Add in that every tourney tended to have an improved FM/DM, and one could find oneself flying a new sim every six months or so (or flying multiple FM's simultaneously).

Add in the 'hit box' DM (which was very cool for the time the sim was made), and I found myself trying to "sim the sim." Indeed, more than one RB3D'er that tried IL-2 out was shocked to find that I, the worst virtual pilot in WWI (validated, as I was dead last in the individual rankings of a major tournament two years running), could shoot them down, while they shot at my wingtips where the hit boxes would "normally" be and got bupkiss.

I can't stress enough how the failings were mine, not the community's (or even the sim's), as it is still around and kicking.

I had a whale of a good time with RB3D, and would love to fly the WWI skies again in a more modern simulation.
Posted By: Hentzau

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 04:46 AM

Looking forward to a WWI sim on the IL2 engine. I only buy hardware for WWI flight sims. Without RB3D, I'd have never bothered with EAW, WW2Fighters, Rowan's BoB, etc. So by giving me WWI, you just might sell a copy of Oleg's BoB too! \:D

I'd rather not have Starforce on the CD though. ;\)
Posted By: Frankenstein

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 05:18 AM

Dart!

Good to see ya mate! You may remember me as RAC Frankenstein back in the day...

I agree fully with your post, it's the online community that kept me playing RB3D for as long as I did. Bringing a new WW1 flightsim onto the market (if done right) could revitalize that...

Here's hoping.
Posted By: JG1Hautz_J10

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 05:22 AM

Wow,

Sure would be nice to get back in the air with some wood and canvas again!

Hautz
Posted By: Manuc

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 08:37 AM

Besides eye candy I hope that the developers create a dynamic immersive campaign like it was in the old "Red Baron". Otherwise I fear that it will turn into another Fokker vs. Camel shooter game
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 10:49 AM

Quote:
Not being a serious FM sort of fellow, so long as the Camel has wicked torque, a blipping engine, the Snipe good maneuverability (but not a lot of power)
Dart,

The Snipe was the replacement for the Camel. It was powered by a Bentley BR2 engine of 230hp. The most powerful engine fitted to the Camel was a Clerget 9H of 185hp. Most of the ~5600 F.1 Camels were powered by Clerget motors of 130-140hp.

For those that want some pilot notes on flying the Camel get Chaz Bowyer's Sopwith Camel - The King of Combat.

It was a Snipe that Barker was flying when he had his famous combat that earned him his VC.
Posted By: Redwolf2

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 04:28 PM

From Winding Man, "OFF PHASE1 will be released on the 18th December."



http://www.off.oldbrowndog.net/index.htm

Going to be a great Christmas!! \:D \:D \:D
Posted By: Lowengrin

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 05:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JG1Hautz_J10:
Wow,

Sure would be nice to get back in the air with some wood and canvas again!

Hautz
Here's to the days of wood and canvas!

~Salute!~
Lo. (JG1Lowengrin_J10)
Posted By: PatWilson

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 05:58 PM

Very good news. Hope this actually comes to pass.
Posted By: PatWilson

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 06:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by KraziKanuK:
The Snipe was the replacement for the Camel. It was powered by a Bentley BR2 engine of 230hp. The most powerful engine fitted to the Camel was a Clerget 9H of 185hp. Most of the ~5600 F.1 Camels were powered by Clerget motors of 130-140hp.

For those that want some pilot notes on flying the Camel get Chaz Bowyer's Sopwith Camel - The King of Combat.

It was a Snipe that Barker was flying when he had his famous combat that earned him his VC.
The Snipe was also much heavier and "draggier" than the Camel (2 bay configuration with lots of wires). It was somewhat faster than the Camel, but not as much as the extra HP would imply. It may have been a step forward but it really wasn't a leap.

On the bright side, it didn't kill more of its pilots than enemy \:\) .
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/15/05 08:25 PM

Quote:
On the bright side, it didn't kill more of its pilots than enemy
Man you huns never stop with the propaganda do you... :rolleyes:

By the way, the Snipe had a much better acceleration than the Camel, and had far better performance at higher altitudes. It`s top speed was nearly 20 mph faster.
Posted By: 150GCT_Veltro

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 08:53 AM

They are searching for info, please read here:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1520
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 09:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GAVeltro:
They are searching for info, please read here:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1520
They should contact Albatros Productions in the UK. These are the people who produce the Windsock Datafiles and Windsock International magazine. They specialize in WW1 a/c.

This is their website, http://www.windsockdatafilespecials.com/
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 10:32 AM



Bumping this one, check the links above...

Thanks all for such good info!

Ming
Posted By: Nift

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 11:15 AM

Great news!!

About time someone did this properly.

The only thing that will keep me from buying it is the use of StarForce as a copy protection.

Let's hope that reason will prevail.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 12:19 PM

There's still plenty of players online with Red Baron 3d, and the sims been going for years. Every one of us have stuck with Rb or soon come back to it after disappointment with other WW1 sim attempts.

I certainly wish these guys the best of luck and look forward to it with great anticipation.
Posted By: Kennel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 01:15 PM

Does anybody in Australia know where any copies of a WW1 flightsim is available, I havnt been able to locate one. I used to play Red Barron on my amiga 500 about 12 years ago & loved it, looking forward to this new WW1 sim
Posted By: Billy Pryce

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 01:19 PM

I am really looking forward to this. Ever since Flying Corps I've been watching and waiting for a new, good quality WW1 flight sim. Im crossing everything until it's released.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 02:15 PM

Wings of War das. Arcadey but not in the arcade sense (I'm on 53 million points so it can't be) \:\) and really fun and the WW1 world is very rich with superbly rendered terrains and planes. Fabulous graphics, air you can breathe almost. The screaming of pilots jumping over the side is a big bonus \:\)

Don't listen to people moaning it's not a sim. So what's your point ask em - or tell them "Cricket's not a sport it's a game" and see what happens. Be wearing a box btw \:\)

Ming
Posted By: LE Heureux

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 04:46 PM

Dasreich, you can get Red Baron 3d at wings-of-valor. SP and MMP games and many patches available.
Hex
Posted By: PatWilson

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 04:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by *Buzzsaw*:
Quote:
On the bright side, it didn't kill more of its pilots than enemy
Man you huns never stop with the propaganda do you... :rolleyes:

By the way, the Snipe had a much better acceleration than the Camel, and had far better performance at higher altitudes. It`s top speed was nearly 20 mph faster.
True on the acceleration and true on the high alt performance, but 20 MPH faster?

I have top sea level speeds of 118 for the Camel and about 127 for the Snipe, for what it's worth. And to be blunt, what it's worth isn't a hell of a lot.

In the end I really don't give a damn. I know well in adveance that you will be howling about the performance of Allied planes no matter what it is. You will then proceed to cherry pick facts to support your forgone conclusion and back said facts with all manneer of interesting graphs :rolleyes: .

All the while you will ignore the most important fact of all: there is no definitive answer as to what the performance of these planes really was. WWI aircraft had wildly different performance ranges within a specific type depending on the age and condition of the airframe, age and condition of the engine, field mods, etc. etc. etc. Further, many commonly quoted figures on performance are based on wildly different test conditions. Finally, we don't have any originals left that can or would be flown the way that they were 85 years ago.

If I get a game where the SPAD is fast, the DRI can climb, and the D.VII is excellent but not the in all parameters and easy to fly then I'll be happy from a performance PoV. If the game further captures some of the quirks of these planes then while imparting some illusion of flight then I will be very happy.

And people will post chart after chart trying to support their unsupportable positions.
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 04:57 PM

For those that want some colorful RFC a/c check out this site.

http://www2.gol.com/users/ransell/index.html

Check out those 2 ckeckered SE5As, one in blue and the other in red.

Also the Bristol F2B. http://www2.gol.com/users/ransell/PageMill_Resources/1.48.F2BCrocodile.gif
Posted By: Col. Douglas King

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 05:11 PM

Here I retouched a screen appeared at the official site some times ago, to make it look as my SPAD...
Added the number and the eagle.
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/2834/king00004bn.jpg
Posted By: dude163

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 05:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by KraziKanuK:
For those that want some colorful RFC a/c check out this site.

http://www2.gol.com/users/ransell/index.html

Check out those 2 ckeckered SE5As, one in blue and the other in red.

Also the Bristol F2B. http://www2.gol.com/users/ransell/PageMill_Resources/1.48.F2BCrocodile.gif
cool site!

was that you on 334th server last night?
playing with vmf214_Knobhead
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 05:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PatWilson:
Quote:
Originally posted by *Buzzsaw*:
Quote:
On the bright side, it didn't kill more of its pilots than enemy
Man you huns never stop with the propaganda do you... :rolleyes:

By the way, the Snipe had a much better acceleration than the Camel, and had far better performance at higher altitudes. It`s top speed was nearly 20 mph faster.
True on the acceleration and true on the high alt performance, but 20 MPH faster?

I have top sea level speeds of 118 for the Camel and about 127 for the Snipe, for what it's worth. And to be blunt, what it's worth isn't a hell of a lot.

In the end I really don't give a damn. I know well in adveance that you will be howling about the performance of Allied planes no matter what it is. You will then proceed to cherry pick facts to support your forgone conclusion and back said facts with all manneer of interesting graphs :rolleyes: .

All the while you will ignore the most important fact of all: there is no definitive answer as to what the performance of these planes really was. WWI aircraft had wildly different performance ranges within a specific type depending on the age and condition of the airframe, age and condition of the engine, field mods, etc. etc. etc. Further, many commonly quoted figures on performance are based on wildly different test conditions. Finally, we don't have any originals left that can or would be flown the way that they were 85 years ago.

If I get a game where the SPAD is fast, the DRI can climb, and the D.VII is excellent but not the in all parameters and easy to fly then I'll be happy from a performance PoV. If the game further captures some of the quirks of these planes then while imparting some illusion of flight then I will be very happy.

And people will post chart after chart trying to support their unsupportable positions.
WWSensei, I salute your powers of prediction. This is alreasy starting to look ugly... \:\(
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/16/05 08:12 PM

Salute Pat

The 127 mph figure often quoted for the Snipe is not its maximum speed, only the speed for that listed altitude.

The Snipe topped out close to 140 mph.

Even Wolfgang in his FLANDERS IN FLAMES flight model for the Snipe had it topping out at 134 mph. (which was still low, but not the speed you mention)

As far as your claim about 'cherry picking', I'll be happy to submit my sources to the scrutiny of the FM designers. ;\)

In any case, unless there is a change, the Snipe is not slated for inclusion in this Sim.

As far as planes killing their own pilots, don't lets forget the Albatros series, with their folding wings, which killed more than a few. Von Richtofen was lucky to escape one incident. Or the Dr1, which initially had a number of crashes, as a result of poor manufacturing standards of the wing. Lt Gontermanns, one of the leading German Aces, was killed in a Dr1 crash.

Von Richtofen also had a crash in one of these early DR1's.

¨

The fact is, aircraft design in the Great War was in its infancy, and there were many things which engineers did not understand. Engine failure, structural failure and overall lack of reliability were factors which pilots had to deal with on a regular basis.
Posted By: II/JG1_Schpam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 01:13 AM

It begins. And the friggin' sim isn't even out yet. :rolleyes: There isn't even a demo to complain about.

Well I'm looking forward to it as is the rest of JG1. RB3D is what got me into flight sims and it was a hoot. WW1 based on the IL2 engine will be just as fun.

Beware the Hun in the Sun!
Posted By: Dart

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 01:55 AM

Whoops. I meant to write Pup, not Snipe - and started a FM debate!

The Snipe was one of my favorites in RB3D, but I tended to steer away from it, as it didn't fly very much over France, the bulk of the small numbers held back for Home Defense.
Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 02:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
WWSensei, I salute your powers of prediction. This is alreasy starting to look ugly... \:\(
Not prediction. History. Watched it happen for years in the WWI community and suffered many of the same arguments when we were going to do "17 Hours".
Posted By: Ronbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 03:48 AM

Yep,
Predictable history. (LOL) And i would like to know the source of the 140mph Snipe? production version, not the Dragonfly engine. it did do 140mph at 15k ft. the Bentley powered was the most common. 121mph or so. 113 at 15k ft. depends on which book a person uses.
Failures did happen, but so did they because of quick designs or shoddy production. early BF109f comes to mind as well...
Posted By: Typhoon27

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 05:26 AM

Oh, it would be nice to fly real planes and see what the world should be. I do appologise for that, but I hate "suckers" and the "push button, helmet flameout" era. Speed has its' limits so if it is war...let it be in a fashion that is "nose to nose". I would sooner fly "hoppycopters" and get close than the stand-off intruder of current choice.
With respect,
Typhoon27
Posted By: Lowengrin

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 05:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:
Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
WWSensei, I salute your powers of prediction. This is alreasy starting to look ugly... \:\(
Not prediction. History. Watched it happen for years in the WWI community and suffered many of the same arguments when we were going to do "17 Hours".
History is known to repeat itself. ;\)

~Salute!~
Lo.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 11:09 AM

The trick is to learn from it.
Posted By: SaQSoN

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 02:07 PM

Check out the GT forum for the new dev.update.

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500
Posted By: Barkhorn1x

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 02:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SaQSoN:
Check out the GT forum for the new dev.update.

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500
Nice stuff - the models are excellent.

Barkhorn.
Posted By: Dumbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 04:01 PM

It's good to see a lot of my old RB3D friends in this thread \:\) .

You all know me as LWulffe_Dumbo (originally LWulffe_Herr Mac). ;\)

And, no, I haven't actually changed squadrons...the Lone Wulffe have granted me a "leave of absence" to fly FB+AEP+PF co-op missions with my new friends in the Arctic Knights squadron (a bunch of old Falcon and LO:MAC pilots...no RB3D guys to my knowledge).

Once a Lone Wulffe, always a Lone Wulffe!

Just point me to my DRI...
Posted By: DaidalosTeam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 04:10 PM

Barkhorn, maybe you think so. But I think the models are ok and textures are rather average. I have seen better looking models with 3000 polys in the patches for FB/PF than I see here with the new WW1 models (with 5000+polys). I understand it's WIP, but I also hope they will aim for some higher standard. Flame me if you want, but I know what I am talking about, but on the other hand I am also a spoiled brat who demands only the best. \:D
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 05:11 PM

I think the models are really cool, do they use texture baking you think? - They have this slightly cartoonish feel which is really good, I think. I don't know what makes for it, but I think it must be the textures, because all the dimensions seem correct. Maybe it is the rather heavy wide-angle employed for the renders...
Posted By: PatWilson

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 05:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
WWSensei, I salute your powers of prediction. This is alreasy starting to look ugly... \:\(
lol - well, for better or for worse my point is that WWI aircraft performance was so variable that it is pointless to talk about precise numbers. I have seen more stuff from people who claim to Know than I can shake a stick at. I would simply like to see folks admit that the the available data was not collected under pristine, uniform test conditions and therefore anything that we claim to know about these planes amounts to little more than a reasonable estimate and not a hard truth. We know general characteristics, let them get kind of close and let's leave it at that.

I am very happy to have a hope of getting a WWI sim. If the relative performance is reasonable, if it imparts a feeling of flight, if it has a good campaign engine, if it has decent AI it will be a very good thing.

Now, as to modeling the quirks like the sesquiplane's weak lower wing in a dive, that's the sort of thing that IMHO makes a WWI sim come alive. RB did a vague handwave at the issue of durability but they implemented a one size fits allformulat that did not model the specific quirks of a type. I.e. an Albatros and N17 would fail the same way as a Fokker D.VII and SPAD. It was just a matter of when.

Complex engine management should be fun \:\)
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 05:36 PM

Btw if to speak about "FM flamewar" - if you have any interesting info about WWI planes - please send it to viks(at)gennadich.com ;\)
Posted By: tater

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 06:16 PM

In the engine means they can resuse things liek buildings and artillery units that belong in ww1. Some new things will be REQUIRED for a ww1 sim, notably TRENCHES. Any chance some ww1 stuff might migrate into an Il-2 product at some point?

tater
Posted By: DaidalosTeam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 06:19 PM

Yes Freycinet, I also see the textures somewhat blurry, simple and cartoonish. But that's me. I like the realistic/detailed (photo similar) look much better. I hope the Gennadich guys will take this as a constructive criticism.
Posted By: Dumbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PatWilson:
I have seen more stuff from people who claim to Know than I can shake a stick at.
I have a confession to make.

I'm actually the world's oldest surviving WWI aviator and I'm really well-preserved! Even though I only recently celebrated my 108th birthday, I'm still sharp as a tack and agile as a cat!

I was born in Heidelberg, Germany in 1897 and flew for the Kaiser for a little over two years before defecting to France in late 1916...where I got to fly some of their planes for about a year or so. Then, having grown tired of the French cuisine, I defected to England on a midnight boat out of Dunkirk and enlisted in the RFC where I finished up the war.

I therefore have a WIDE RANGE of experience flying aircraft from BOTH SIDES OF THE TRENCHES!

ASK ME ANYTHING!

;\)
Posted By: Lowengrin

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 08:44 PM

Quote:
I would simply like to see folks admit that the the available data was not collected under pristine, uniform test conditions and therefore anything that we claim to know about these planes amounts to little more than a reasonable estimate and not a hard truth. We know general characteristics, let them get kind of close and let's leave it at that.
Just the variability of performance between planes (even within the same squadron) is one thing I'd really like to see in a WW1 sim. Then available data could be viewed as a performance range rather than a definative number.
Posted By: Barkhorn1x

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 08:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Martin:
Barkhorn, maybe you think so. But I think the models are ok and textures are rather average. I have seen better looking models with 3000 polys in the patches for FB/PF than I see here with the new WW1 models (with 5000+polys). I understand it's WIP, but I also hope they will aim for some higher standard. Flame me if you want, but I know what I am talking about, but on the other hand I am also a spoiled brat who demands only the best. \:D
Gee, I guess you are just more demanding than I am. Oh well, I'm sure the devs. will reskin them for you.

\:D

Barkhorn
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 08:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Martin:
Yes Freycinet, I also see the textures somewhat blurry, simple and cartoonish. But that's me. I like the realistic/detailed (photo similar) look much better. I hope the Gennadich guys will take this as a constructive criticism.
Ehhh, I didn't say blurry and simple, I think they are really, really good! The Il-2 engine is not about photo-realism, like Lock-On, if we look at the landscapes. It's more of a representation of 3D-space made with a certain verve and artistic ability. I think these planes and their skins fit very well in that "world".
Posted By: Barkhorn1x

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 09:01 PM

...and BTW, the Thirdwire effort will probably be out "early next year" according to the dev., TK.

Barkhorn.
Posted By: J18_Weed

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 09:30 PM

http://www.cagesworld.com/RedBaron2/rb2squads.htm


Hopefully we will see a lot of our old red baron squads brought back to life if and when it comes out ...ill put il2 to bed for good......red baron 3d was the best online comunity ever....
Posted By: J18_Weed

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 09:36 PM

http://forums.delphiforums.com/flight2004

For all you former members of delphi flightsim forms lets see if we can breath some life back into it ...
Posted By: Lowengrin

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 09:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by J18_Weed:
http://www.cagesworld.com/RedBaron2/rb2squads.htm


Hopefully we will see a lot of our old red baron squads brought back to life if and when it comes out ...ill put il2 to bed for good......red baron 3d was the best online comunity ever....
Brought back to life??? Many have never died!
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 09:45 PM

Quote:

I'm actually the world's oldest surviving WWI aviator. I was born in Heidelberg, Germany in 1897.
It's actually an interesting question whether there are any world war one aviators still alive.

In France there are now six (6) surviving world war one veterans. Their age is between 106 and 110, meaning the oldest one was born in 1895! I assume the figures are about the same in the other countries.
Posted By: PatWilson

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 09:52 PM

I was reading on "the aerodrome" where the last British aviator pased just recently. Assuming that 17 was the minumum age for air service, even the youngest would have to be 104 years old now.
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 09:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by J18_Weed:
http://www.cagesworld.com/RedBaron2/rb2squads.htm


Hopefully we will see a lot of our old red baron squads brought back to life if and when it comes out ...ill put il2 to bed for good......red baron 3d was the best online comunity ever....
Cagesworld, LOL I haven't seen that site in years.
Nice one Weed \:D
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 11:31 PM

Salute

There are only five WWI veterans left alive in Canada, out of the over six hundred thousand who served. Not sure if any are aviators. Probably the same percentage for the other combatant nations.

Even the numbers of WWII veterans are getting thin. Most still alive are in their 80's, and are they are rapidly passing.

We need to get their accounts committed to text, sound or video soon or they will be lost forever.
Posted By: Dart

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/17/05 11:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lowengrin:
Quote:
I would simply like to see folks admit that the the available data was not collected under pristine, uniform test conditions and therefore anything that we claim to know about these planes amounts to little more than a reasonable estimate and not a hard truth. We know general characteristics, let them get kind of close and let's leave it at that.
Just the variability of performance between planes (even within the same squadron) is one thing I'd really like to see in a WW1 sim. Then available data could be viewed as a performance range rather than a definative number.
OMG, that's the solution! Imagine that the Pup has an FM range that is plus or minus a little bit that is plane dependant and randomly selected at spawn. You might get a "hot" plane or an "average" one, or one that's a "dog" on the low end of the perameters. Since IL-2 doesn't use tables, it could even be broken down further.

For instance, my Pup may not have the high end RPM's of another, but be better at higher altitudes, as it's been set overly lean....or that one is slightly faster owing to tighter canvas...or whatever.

If the plane carries from mission to mission in a campaign, it could be very fun! "My old Sally, she's not the fastest Pup out there, but her guns hardly jam and her engine never dies."
Posted By: Jarvis

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/18/05 12:24 AM

What a nice trip down memory lane this is! Just adding my voice to the crowd looking forward to this new sim coming to fruition.


(Once known as BA_Luca in a previous life before a wife and family...)
Posted By: II/JG1_Schpam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/18/05 02:34 AM

This is a web site with a list of the NACA reports http://www.cesos.ntnu.no/~kong/links_files/NACA%20Digital%20Library.htm

There are quite a few about WW1. Take a look at them and you'll realize the uncertain nature of airplane design and understanding. This one is interesting http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/report.php?NID=138
I like the parts about testing airplanes. Read page 7 or 8. "Speed was not measured regularly. To accomplish the latter, steady, horizontal flights are a requisite, and even trained pilots cannot always accomplish this accurately."

Based on this report PatWilson is right. Absolute performance quoting is pointless. Get it about right and about right relative to the other planes (probably the most important) and you'll have a successful WW1 sim when it comes to the flight model.
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/18/05 05:57 AM

Salute

Quote:
Get it about right and about right relative to the other planes...
One can only "get it about right", when one has a historically measured baseline to compare the virtual model to.

And to suggest that historical tests are irrelevant or unworthy of quoting simply because they are not 100% consistent is the height of scientific folly.

Any scientist will do an experiment multiple times because they know there will be variation in the results.

One arrives at a conclusion after studying and averaging all the tests.

The RAF did careful flight testing of all its aircraft, with speeds noted at various predetermined altitudes.

Those results were compared with other similar tests of the same aircraft.

To make the ridiculous comment that because results may vary slightly, that one can disregard them is complete nonsense.
Posted By: TexasTwister

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/18/05 07:31 AM

Wow, been waiting for this for years. WW1 is so much more fun than WW2 combat flight simulation IMO.

With all the familiar names in this thread from Red Baron 3D, I had to register and say hi. If this sim comes to life it will bring me back online, no question.

FKA US103 TexasTwister and Escadrille 48 LeBlanc from the fun RB3D days.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/18/05 10:17 AM

I defected to England on a midnight boat out of Dunkirk

Yes I remember you young man. Pasty-faced and heaving on the midnight steam packet to Dover. This is long before official gender re-assignment channels and you had your reasons I'm sure, one draws the veil

Did you ever learn to pronounce sausages correctly Mitzi?

See what the boys in the backroom will have and tell them I'm having the same altogether now sew-sedges no go again mate

Ming
Posted By: JG1_RiverRat

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/18/05 02:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TexasTwister:
Wow, been waiting for this for years. WW1 is so much more fun than WW2 combat flight simulation IMO.

With all the familiar names in this thread from Red Baron 3D, I had to register and say hi. If this sim comes to life it will bring me back online, no question.

FKA US103 TexasTwister and Escadrille 48 LeBlanc from the fun RB3D days.
Dang Tex, you are still alive?? The rumors were not true I guess!! \:o )
How are ya boy?

AKA: JG1_RivRat_J11
Posted By: Kat

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/18/05 03:39 PM

Quote:
Brought back to life??? Many have never died!
S! Lo, you are so right.

Okay, if we are going to have another WWI FM debate I'm going to need to really stock up on the popcorn. Probably going to need some help with the popcorn distribution as well.

Lo, Sensei, any one care to bet how lomg it takes for the first "climbs like a monkey" quote to be used while discussing the DR1 FM?

Ooohhh man I love these threads. :p

I wish the developers luck, I hope it does see the light of day. I look forward to it.

Goober! where you hide me googles?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/18/05 06:14 PM

Was that a South American or an African monkey? ;\)

Let's face it... just how many monkeys had the Baron seen climb?
Posted By: II/JG1_Schpam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 12:59 AM

Yes, yes I forgot how much of a scientist you are. And yes of course the RAF was so much better. I know, I know. How dare I forget?

Point being aviation was in it's infancy and they didn't have the capabilities to truly measure things and that any quotes cannot be supported the way things can be and were in WW2 and since. So again get it about right and that's going to be good enough.

Or do you have some scientific analysis to provide? Quotes from books don't count.
Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 01:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don E. Brooke:
Was that a South American or an African monkey? ;\)

Let's face it... just how many monkeys had the Baron seen climb?
Well, not sure what he saw but this film:

http://www.toxichazard.com/movie.php?a=info&i=164

Clearly shows that the Monkey clearly had the advantage in the vertical maneuvering department versus his adversary's greater speed and armament.

Truly a Boom and Zoomer if there ever was one...
Posted By: Hawkw1nd

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 01:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by II/JG1_Schpam:
Yes, yes I forgot how much of a scientist you are. And yes of course the RAF was so much better. I know, I know. How dare I forget?

Point being aviation was in it's infancy and they didn't have the capabilities to truly measure things and that any quotes cannot be supported the way things can be and were in WW2 and since. So again get it about right and that's going to be good enough.

Or do you have some scientific analysis to provide? Quotes from books don't count.
Schpam, he's not worth it. Simply ignore him ;\) ...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 02:55 AM

So true, Sensei. So true. LOL!

Don E.
Posted By: Dart

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 05:52 AM

Quote:
Quotes from books don't count.
Um, are we supposed to go to the website the RFC was running in 1915, or what?

Okay, seriously, there were some tests done, and while they didn't involve computer sensors, the guys who built and tested aircraft weren't exactly cave men beating rocks together.

Mass production means quality control. Every plane that came out of the construction hangar was tested, which means there was some quantification of each model made.

Heck, there are enough flying versions of the major aircraft of WWI (well, maybe not the Eindecker or the DH-2) around today with original engines to get a darned close idea of how they performed.
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 06:17 AM

Quote:
And yes of course the RAF was so much better
Who said anything about the RAF being better? Why do you think the Germans went to all the trouble to set up their testing facility, and to bring leading pilots to it to try out the aircraft?

As far as scientific analysis, I'd prefer to rely on people who were trained and equipped to do that task, and who actually got their hands on these aircraft.
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 12:24 PM

Just to make people aware, if you visit the dev's web site they are asking for info sources.

The new 3D models look excellent. Nice and only 5000 polys on the aircraft. Hopefully that should keep the gfx load down so some uber terrain can be added \:D
Posted By: Kupper

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 01:46 PM

I'm just wieghing in to add my name to the ranks of those hoping that this may actually be completed and released! Like many, "Red Baron" was my first exposure to the world of flight simming. Funny...but it seems as though ,over the years, when WWI enthusiasts would express a desire for a new WWI sim, folks would say..."sure, It'd be nice, but there's just not enough interest...". Well, here we are, 8 pages into this thread...I don't post much, as you can see...but this one has me excited!! I can't wait....
Posted By: II/JG1_Schpam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 03:16 PM

The problem with some books, not all, is that they quote other books and so on and so forth. What was the original source? Just because 10 books all same the same thing doesn't mean much if they all used the same book as their source.

And even if you find some original source sometimes they leave off critical information like exactly what engine was used was it X or the improved X.

Again my point is that there is a lot of variability in numbers. Why? Again because testing aircraft was as young as the aviation industry itself. Add in the expediency of war and it is so hard to actually tell exactly what was what.

Tell me how do you do a speed test at 3000m in a WW1 crate? Read the report. A NACA report the ones that some of us quote and take carte blanche. Look at all the early reports. These are the experts. Look at the basic things we all take for granted now being discussed and researched.

And no we can't just accept what some book says. There needs to be some knowledgeable critical thinking to determine if the source is decent or not. Face it. We know a lot more about airplanes and how they perform now than then. And there is absolutely no reason what so ever that we shouldn't try to apply critical thought and updated knowledge.

So again get it about right. Use some benchmark airplanes and get them close and make the other planes relative to them. Don't worry if the sim plane is slightly slower or faster. Use a late Spad, a Camel, an Albatros III, and a Fokker DVII. And probably a Nieuport, too. Do your best reseach and modeling on those then make the others performance relative to those in terms of speed, climb, and turn.

And we all need to accept that just because you have a source that a Alb DVa could go 120 mph and the one in the sim goes 115 mph then don't get your panties in a bunch because there was so much variability then that they both may be right. What matters is not only the absolute sim performance but also the relative performance of that Alb DVa to its counterparts, predecessors, and descendants.
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 06:54 PM

Quote:
Do your best reseach and modeling on those then make the others performance relative to those in terms of speed, climb, and turn.
How are you going to know what the relation between the different aircraft is in terms of speed and climb unless you look at the performance data for ALL of them?

Or are you going to go with the myths which have been created around different aircraft?

There is a wealth of data out there, and it should be used.
Posted By: II/JG1_Schpam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 07:45 PM

Yes look at them all of course. But try to get certain ones as close as you can and then make the others relative to those benchmarks, using common aero performance sense. I think PF has most certainly shown you can't get everything right everywhere for every plane and that is with a lot of original source test reports, etc. Precious little of that remains from WW1 planes. Also, I think given the variablity in WW1 numbers it is pointless to try to get everything on-spec since you can't even tell what spec is for everything for every plane.

Let's take the Albatross series. All are basically the same but with different engines. Make an effort to get one of them like the DIII as close to whatever is decided is "spec" then make the DII and DV/Va relative to the DIII, a little slower or faster in top speed and climb. But don't make a huge effort to try to get them all on spec since you'll get all wrapped up in what spec is when all that really matters is the one that is a little faster in reality is a little faster in the sim. Who cares if in reality some source says is was 5 mph faster and the sim gives 3 or 7 mph? I'd much rather that the relative performance is correct and that it is all in the right direction than having something on spec in one or two parameters but all hosed up somewhere else just to satisfy some misguided thinking.

I'd love to see this wealth of data since I think it doesn't exist because if it did then RB3D wouldn't have turned into the stupid FM forum fights and the multitude of 3rd party FMs all of which were based on some data but each was very different.
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 08:47 PM

Salute

RED BARON turned into what it did because:

a) the designers inflated the performance figures for some aircraft (in particular the Albatros climbrates) while at the same time, they completely undermodelled the performance of others, (such as the climbrate for the Dr1 and N17 series)

b) the engine couldn't handle the complexities of flight, and engine performance

c) the damage code had a large bug in it which warped artificially the flight performance of certain aircraft when they took wing damage

The IL-2 engine is much more capable of handling the details than RED BARON, and for example, it should be able to model the wingloss problem which affected the Sesqui-plane aircraft such as the Nieuport and Albatros.
Posted By: Ronbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/19/05 09:00 PM

Back to my original statement, take the time to record all the particulars for the replica aircraft, still flying , out there. Adjust if need be to fill in the blanks. Dr1s, camel, albatros DV, SPAD 13, Nieport 17 (11?), Fokker D7, Eindekker E3 (might be 3/4 scale, cant remember) and a few others are all out there and flying. Some have original engines, most dont i believe. That is the best benchmark to go with and collate documented books and then pilot reports to finish the job.
Of course, it will all mean diddly squat if the campaign, etc is not up to par.

We had all the above except for replica aircraft.
when certain people were listened to by Sierra who had very little clue other than 'climbs like a monkey' for instance, things went awry. That and the code couldnt handle what we wanted for the little quirks everyone wanted in each and every plane.
Posted By: MM1965

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/20/05 01:24 AM

Far better than RB for sure, but will it have the immersive atmosphere RB had?? If you flew an offline campaign in RB, you felt like you were really a fighter piot in 1917!! Complete with church bells as you flew over villages...Now that type of stuff was great. One thing the whole IL2 series has lacked
has been a superb immersiveness as far as Dgen or DCG offline campaigns go.
Posted By: PatWilson

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/20/05 02:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by *Buzzsaw*:
Salute

RED BARON turned into what it did because:

a) the designers inflated the performance figures for some aircraft (in particular the Albatros climbrates) while at the same time, they completely undermodelled the performance of others, (such as the climbrate for the Dr1 and N17 series)

b) the engine couldn't handle the complexities of flight, and engine performance

c) the damage code had a large bug in it which warped artificially the flight performance of certain aircraft when they took wing damage

The IL-2 engine is much more capable of handling the details than RED BARON, and for example, it should be able to model the wingloss problem which affected the Sesqui-plane aircraft such as the Nieuport and Albatros.
The RB FM code is actually alot better than it is generally given credit for, or so I am told by the various FM builders. Not IL2, but not bad either. The problems mostly centered around the garbage numbers that they used. Subsequent FM developers like Wolf, Panama Red, Greybeard, Royce, etc. have done a pretty job with the old nag.

I do very much look forward to seeing what can be done with the IL2 engine.
Posted By: Badsight

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/20/05 07:27 AM

the sort of combat that makes FB so much fun . . . . .

is 10x more furious in a WW1 sim!

this deserves to get released : )

(please dont let this go the way of 2003's Knights over Europe!)
Posted By: CrazySchmidt

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/20/05 08:05 AM

Damn, 8 pages deep and I have only just seen this!!!

I would definitely buy this. A WWI Sim in this environment would simply be superb!

I very much hope this actually makes it's way to market.

Cheers, CrazySchmidt. \:\)
Posted By: =69.GIAP=TOOZ

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/20/05 08:27 AM

My real hope is that this will not just be a "Furball Over The Trenches" game, but will have a good spectrum of mission types, and have real depth to the scenarios possible.

I have this very niggly feeling that it is going to be geared entirely towards the fighter boys among us, and the furballers extreme, and the actual idea of simulation WWI air warfare is going to go down the tubes.

The conception of air power, and the use of aircraft in WWI was not based on the same principles as today, or in WWII, for that matter. Aircraft were seen as a tool for the ground forces to utilise, and in so doing make their war more successful.

Air combat in WWI arose as a secondary concern when it was realised shooting an observation aircraft would make the other side's shelling less effective/accurate. And then there was the realisation that if you protected your observation aircraft, your side's shelling would be more effective or accurate. Same goes for reconnaissance. And so air to air combat was realised as a direct result from the concerns of ground combat.

A WWI sim, in my opinion, MUST be constructed with these basic principles in mind. You cannot construct this sim with modern ideas of how aircraft are used in warfare, it must be taken from within the context of the conflict being depicted.

I would love to see forms of gameplay where you can actually direct your artillery, and you actually SEE a particular section of trench system get annihilated, or a set of machine gun posts obliterated, or a rear supply area destroyed, and all because of your direct instructions to the artillery batteries to correct their fire!

And then, as a direct result of you being in the air, a flight of scouts comes over and chases you away, or shoots you down because you've just been the cause for the laying to waste of some part of their forces.

And then, as a direct result of the enemy chasing you, a flight of your side's scouts comes over and bounces the enemy to allow you to escape, or to continue your work directing the batteries.

Otherwise, all you get is air combat for air combat's sake, i.e. furballs over the trenches.

Unfortunately, online, because that type of play is the norm for about 90-odd% of you lot, I severely doubt anything like what I propose is being considered, then I fear (apart from the odd sortie in a Gotha) it's gonna be nothing but Spads and Camels against Dr.Is and Albatrosses over no-man's land.

One can only hope!
Posted By: JAS Gripen

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/20/05 12:44 PM

"Wait and see" is the feeling I have about this. Pretty models...well, Aspectsimulations' Knights Over Europe had them too
and what became of that game?

Don't get me wrong, I loved RB2, warts and all, and wish the best for this sim but one has to remember that when this baby *really* comes out Oleg's BoB is likely out too and as a new generation product will appeal better to flightsim/propfans, particularly if Oleg has improved the sterile offline experience (pardon, but that is the the truth) of IL2-PF.

So the remaining selling point will be WWI. I can understand why Ubi et al. would have doubts about investing in a boxed product on the Western shelves. Perhaps distribution though a website would then be the answer. I'd wager that the majority of the people who are interested in this product are, um, more mature (bar FM discussions \:D ) persons and already have The Sign of The Beast...er, a credit card. Still, one can find "products" on gamestore shelves that make one wonder why and who publishes such inane cr@p that also cannot possibly sell. In view of that, proposing the promotion of this quality sim by regular boxed distribution should be no career suicide to any Ubi(for example) suit.


We all have wishes and dreams about the definite WWI sim, but I hope the developers do not try to implement them all but instead stick to their own vision with minor modifications based on our suggestions&feedback. Otherwise I fear that delays and fudging will eventually endanger the whole project.

FM? Scr€w the FM, give us athmosphere! I did not like RB because it had bi-planes, I loved it because of its' athmosphere that made me forget its' rather obvious flaws (and by the gods the initial release had them plenty!). Oh, the developers must work within the IL2 framework? Well, now you understand better why I have this "wait and see" attitude.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/21/05 02:34 PM

Sheesh, some old and familiar names here.

And some of the same old and familiar discussions! lol!

Droops
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/21/05 04:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
It makes sense to begin with 1916-18, since the yanks will be there and the planes will have higher performance. With pre-1916 planes, some people might be shocked to have to nurse early-war planes around the sky in feeble turns and dives, to keep them from falling apart (which they did!).
Actually, July of 1915 would be a better starting date. However, a lot of those earlier aircraft would present unique problems and I'm not sure if a developer would want to tackle those.

Droops
Posted By: Frankyboy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/21/05 04:39 PM

as best they would concentrate on the year 1917 !

Albatros D.III & V
Fokker Dr.I
Halberstadt CL.II
DFW C.V
Gotha G.IV or V

Spad 7 & 13
Nieuport 17
Sopwith Pup
Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter
Sopwith Camel
SE.5a
Bristol Fighter F.2B
D.H. 4
Handley Page O/400

would make a usefull flyable planeset on Dogfight servers. in COOP and offline than would be additional AI planes.

and if they want go to 1918 they can ad
Fokker D.VII
&
Sopwith Camel "late" (with Bentley BR.1 engine)
as flyable.
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/21/05 04:48 PM

Salute

Getting data and cockpit details for the earlier WWI aircraft is a real problem.

There are a few remaining originals, like the Fokker E3, which exist in museums, but the majority of the aircraft of that era are long gone. This is especially the case for the German side.

Planes like the Roland CII, which would be crucial for 1916, AFAIK, do not exist in museums and the cockpit photos available are insufficient to make them flyable. Ball, the early war British Ace, considered the Roland the toughest opposition he had, (even though it was a two seater) up till September of 1916.

Other planes like the Fokker DI or DII also do not exist, and data is very limited.
Posted By: 150GCT_Veltro

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/21/05 05:25 PM

The models are really amazing!

I really hope to have also the Fokker DVII...and some recon aircrafts as flyable.

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500











Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/21/05 05:53 PM

I have posted this before in many places, but will do so again here.

When I was doing work for 17 Hours, I did research on all of the types of aircraft flown during the war. My research indicated that, for the entire war, on all fronts, and including trainers, there were over 700 different aircraft types used.

This number seems huge, but if you're just talking about the western front it reduces the number a bit. Throw out planes from 1914 and early 1915, and examples of only one or two aircraft flown, and it reduces it even more. If you assume at least ten of a type showing up on the front western front, and exclude trainers, then the number gets down to just over 100.

This does not include seaplanes, which, IMO, would need to be included in a proper WWI aviation sim.

At any rate, you can pare the list down to 100 types and have a well-rounded WWI Western Front aviation sim from the middle of 1915 to the end of the war. You can reduce that number, but after awhile you will begin to exclude aircraft that were more common. Red Baron excludes a number of 'common' types that were seen extensively on the front.

Building a WWI sim can be daunting if your realism goal is high.

This should be fun. \:\)

Droops
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/21/05 06:50 PM

I hope Gennadich et al will get the third party modelling scene up and going, and ORGANISE it well. It didn't work too well in FB and PF, seemingly there was a lot of issues regarding who should do which planes and payment, etc... - Still we got a lot of marvellous third party planes from hardworking modellers like Gibbage, etc.

Modelling planes to BoB standards excludes all but a very small elite of 3DMax geniuses, but planes with 5000 polys are more doable. If they could get a third party modelling crowd going, and maybe do some excellent textures like those in these screenies themselves, then we could have many many planes we wouldn't see otherwise. A big part of the flavour and joy of flying in FB/AEP/PF is the variety of planes you get to shoot out of the sky!

Given the dearth of FM info from WWI, I'd say that the inclusion of new planes would be easier than it has been in the Il-2 series, since the FM work ought to be less contested.

Maybe the organisation of something like this would be a job for Saqson? \:\) - Or are you already working on it?
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/21/05 08:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
I hope Gennadich et al will get the third party modelling scene up and going, and ORGANISE it well. It didn't work too well in FB and PF, seemingly there was a lot of issues regarding who should do which planes and payment, etc... - Still we got a lot of marvellous third party planes from hardworking modellers like Gibbage, etc.

Modelling planes to BoB standards excludes all but a very small elite of 3DMax geniuses, but planes with 5000 polys are more doable. If they could get a third party modelling crowd going, and maybe do some excellent textures like those in these screenies themselves, then we could have many many planes we wouldn't see otherwise. A big part of the flavour and joy of flying in FB/AEP/PF is the variety of planes you get to shoot out of the sky!

Given the dearth of FM info from WWI, I'd say that the inclusion of new planes would be easier than it has been in the Il-2 series, since the FM work ought to be less contested.

Maybe the organisation of something like this would be a job for Saqson? \:\) - Or are you already working on it?
This was tried 2 years ago. No one wanted to do it. Whether it wasn't cool enough I don't know but most folks wanted to do WWII stuff and you couldn't force them. Mossie did a great job organizing the stuff and I have even seen his site linked in the thread. I still am skeptical of this making its way to the West. I was told Ubi had extensive rights to what was done with the Il2 engine outside Russia and that they would really need to be convienced it would make them a profit. This meant no competition and the numbers to justify. Not trying to be negative just relating that we may not see it here like the Russian market may not see the Thirdwire effort. Sad as we get caught in the middle and I certainly hope I am wrong and that the info I was given has changed. Perhaps they can take the route the Eagle Dynamics folks took and make it an unoffical addon.
Posted By: =69.GIAP=TOOZ

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/21/05 10:07 PM

It's my understanding (correct me if I am wrong - I probably am!) that GT are developing this game as an entirely independant venture from 1C: Maddox Games. Apart from being given permission to revamp the game engine from FB, it will be their own game. And this would lead me to believe that who distributes the product in the west is an open question as Ubi has the rights over distrubution of any Maddox Games sim, but not on products produced by annother developer.

Unless there is some kind of stipulation that software originating from Maddox Games productions are also controlled by Ubi for distribution (i.e. PT Boats: KOTS uses stuff from 1C:MG).

I dunno, but whatever it is, I am 100% sure there will be/is a very large market for this product. The very fact it is a Western Front WWI sim will attract most people right off the bat!
Posted By: Smithcorp

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/22/05 09:13 AM

Droops - great to see you posting here. Sorry 17 hours didn't work out.
Posted By: Consumer Services

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/22/05 04:17 PM

All of this talking of WWI makes me want to replay History Line again. Where did I put that CD?
Posted By: Undo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/22/05 05:31 PM

Did anyone watch the Discovery Times documentary a month or so ago on the camel vs. the Dr.1? Quite interesting. They flew around the the Rhinebeck aircraft quite a bit. One of the illuminating observations was about the visibility from the Dr.1 being quite bad, particularly to the front below. Aparently, when the Germans went to copy the Sopwith Triplane they didn't realize that the goal of Sopwith's efforts was actually to IMPROVE visibility by using more wings with a narrower cord...

Great documentary.

I can't wait for this sim!
Posted By: SaQSoN

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/23/05 12:31 AM

Quote:
It's my understanding (correct me if I am wrong - I probably am!) that GT are developing this game as an entirely independant venture from 1C: Maddox Games. Apart from being given permission to revamp the game engine from FB, it will be their own game. And this would lead me to believe that who distributes the product in the west is an open question as Ubi has the rights over distrubution of any Maddox Games sim, but not on products produced by annother developer.
Yes, GT is independent company, but their publisher in the Russia is 1C, that is a part of engine licensing agreement, as far as I know.
So, much probably, their worldwide publisher will work with them via 1C either. However, it doesn't neccessary means, it will be Ubi.
Posted By: No105_Ogdens

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/23/05 12:34 AM

Quote:
FM? Scr€w the FM, give us athmosphere!
Anyone who gets off on an FM discussion on these old planes will never find immersion. Unfortunately those guys have the loudest voice!
Posted By: JAS Gripen

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/23/05 06:01 AM

Bah, technocratic approach by aviation engineer Oleg gave us the initial IL-2 that had excellent FM for its time but not even customizable skins.

If Dynamix hadn't folded depriving IL2 of serious competition IL2 would most likely be just a footnote in simhistory today.

Since then we have got the custom skins (with the important exception of defaults) and campaing generators have bravely but ultimately (IMO) unsuccessfully added life to the off-line experience.

All the while we have also got some half-dozen "most accurate ever" FM's, proving that it's a lot easier to adress FM/DM issues later than to add life and athmosphere to sim lacking them.

Very few people will notice that something is amiss when a British SPAD 7 performs as well as a Frech one, but everyone including the reviewers will notice if the campaing is lifeless.

So, where initial priorities should lie is pretty clear.
Posted By: notam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/23/05 04:24 PM

Just to chime in to show interest and support in the project.....

I will buy it. WWI makes for way more fun online. No need for silly icons at all since the combat distances are closer. That was the best thing about the old "Flying Circus" online game, which I flew while it was around.

IEN's Dawn of Aces was great too, although the company let that one rot on the vine. But I had great fun with it for a couple years.

As long as there is comparable performance derived from as much trusted research as possible and an interesting offline campaign it will be welcomed.

Think I'll go fly another sortie in my current French campaign in RB3d. What a great game! Still flying it (on a Voodoo2 none-the-less) after all these years.

Salute!
notam
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/23/05 04:26 PM

A post made in 2003 about plane numbers. FYI

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=100;t=000035;p=1#000000
Posted By: JonP01_dup1

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/23/05 10:05 PM

I would just like to add my support and enthusiasm to this IL2-based WWI project. I hardly ever post here, but felt I needed to voice my support for it. With Knights Over Europe fairly fresh in my mind, I won't get my hopes up, but I do get the feeling this project has a very good chance of succeeding.

It has been a dream of mine that a "proper" WWI sim be created based on the Forgotten Battles engine, since - for me at least - Oleg's base simulation has all the strong points required: excellent, smooth performance, incredibly advanced damage and flight modelling and a surprisingly efficient terrain engine.

As I fly those low level missions in Il2 over those small towns in the morning mist, I often just wish I was in a WWI figher instead.

I think this new sim could be an enormous commercial success and the first truly worthy successor to RB3D. Chances are too, that any computer currently capable of running FB/PF well, should be able to run this sim well too. Or at least I hope so...
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/24/05 12:00 AM

Very true words JonP01, well said, now put yourself on the map in the SimHQ community thread in the top of this forum! \:\)
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/24/05 12:19 AM

Salute

Immersion is also about FM accuracy, but not to the detriment of that extra chrome which gets people excited.

Accuracy in flight modelling is a Nieuport or Albatros Sesquiplane wing aircraft, which displays the wingflutter they had historically.

Immersion is when that fluttering is the noticeable drumming vibration which shakes the plane. It is also when you report to afternoon briefing, (something which is lacking in IL-2) and your C/O tells you your trusted wingman has been lost due to wing failure.
Posted By: Mangrove

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/24/05 07:54 PM

New Developers Update announced!

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500

Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/24/05 09:19 PM

what a beast, let's see planes tho!
Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/24/05 11:46 PM

^^that thing will never fly^^ \:\)

Nice DH.4 pics!!
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/25/05 11:19 AM

Exquisite paintwork on that tank, BTW, it really brings out a lot of detail that.... isn't there! (in 3D that is).
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/25/05 12:31 PM

Agreed the skin on that tank is fantastic.

I'd like to see some updated terrain shots, if this is going to be released next year then they should have something.

I hope this sim isn't pointed towards the online experience the way IL2 is and I suspect BOB will be. I'm not holding my breath though, dev's seem to have forgotten how to make a sim with a decent offline experience. I want atmosphere, RPG style squad management and varied missions. I suspect that what we'll get are nice gfx and technically well modelled aircraft and nothing else, similar to the situation with IL2 and Lock On.
Posted By: Cas141

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/27/05 10:51 AM

Well gents, there is no one more enthusiastic than i am to see a good WW1 sim. My first sim was FCG and my dream would be that sim with modern graphics. Everything else was OK.
However, most of these posts here seem to be unaware that there is a good WW1 sim about to emerge on 18 December 2005. It is called Over Flanders Field and it is a free add on to CFS 3.
Do a search and go to the website for info, screenies etc. You will be pleasantly surprised.

Also, if you want to fly an Albatross 111 -One of the best planes I;ve had in a sim, with a wonderful FM - do a search for Stuart Green who has made such a plane for FS2004. OK, so you are not shooting anyone :)but just try this plane. The VC is the best VC of any plane i have ever flown. You can see the individual tappetts of the engine going up and down.Wonderful!!
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/27/05 12:04 PM

Cas,
did you mean Albatros III? Is this the B.III, C.III or D.III?
Posted By: =69.GIAP=TOOZ

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/27/05 12:39 PM

A lot of people are aware of the OFF add on, but the problem is, it's a CFS3 add on. That's the turn off for me, and for many others I believe.
Posted By: bzhyoyo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/27/05 12:47 PM

Tooz, if you mean by that that your rig won't be able to cope, don't worry if you have a rig that is able to cope with PF with good settings. We've spent some time to optimize things so it isn't as jerky as stock cfs3 is.
If you mean online play is your priority, then you're right to some extent : our focus was the offline campaign.
If you mean the flight models : they're better than the original cfs3, but no miracle if you dislike table flight models.
If you mean DM : they're improved compared to the original cfs3 but not as precise as FB.

It seems this FB engine-based sim will be best for those who enjoy online, and that OFF will be a good one for those who want to customize things to their hearts-content and play offline. And it's free. Pear and apples...
Posted By: Consumer Services

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/27/05 01:39 PM

The big problems I for one have with CFS3 are:
a) The game is very, very unstable for me. Lots of crashes to desktop before I fired it into the corner.
b) It's from MS, which kinda implicates a), but that's another story.

So I don't think I'd get OFF if the game engine underneath is as unstable as plain old CFS3. But that's just my opinion, and noone is taking it from me. Get your own \:\)
Posted By: bzhyoyo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/27/05 02:06 PM

Consumer service, if you still have cfs3 and want to try OFF, get to SOH cfs3 forums : you'll get sorted in no time - all the bugs have been ironed out, and the community knows how to deal with them.
Posted By: PVT_Roger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/27/05 03:13 PM

Have they made multiplay better in CFS3 than it was out of the box?
Posted By: bzhyoyo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/27/05 03:27 PM

We haven't changed anything about multiplayer as I said in a former post.
Posted By: WWCephas

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/27/05 05:28 PM

Looking forward to this sim but...

Tanks are neat, but I can't see putting to much into them as the airplanes will be nearly powerless against them. If they are just there for eye candy rolling across the battlefield great. The bomb loadouts are miniscule on that era of planes and if the tanks are made to half scale like they are in IL2 than they become incredibly hard to hit also. Also I can not say with absolute assurance, but I highly doubt bomb delay fuzes were used in WW1, so flying down right on top of the tank to hit it with a 20 kilo bomb would not be realistic. (Hopefully bomb delays are left out, they are massively abused and overused in IL2.. IMO ) Personally I would I would LOVE to see trucks and artillery battalions and infantry running around to strafe. (yes I know in some countries this makes me a sick puppy) In IL2 it is so cool when strafing a truck column to see the people running away, its just a shame they disappear. Jane's WW2 Fighters had infantry in limited amounts, it would be awesome to see a whole wave of infantry making a charge across the front lines from above.

Not that my opinion has any import whatsoever on what the dev wants to do, just thought I would drop my 2 cents.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/28/05 04:51 AM

How about compare it to RB3D?

I had the original CFS till I gave it away and it did have I think it was a Spad and a Sopwith and a DrI that wasn't porked. That didn't fly so terribly bad compared to riding the cracks in the RB3D corp FM. The planes did have a slick feel though and a sideslip didn't lose much speed.
Posted By: Heini von Seppel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/28/05 08:13 AM

Tanks were not that sophisticated at the time.

There are several instances of aircraft disabling tanks noted in books (ie von Greim with a buddy, Udet).
On rare occasions even infantry machine guns could at least stop them.
I liked the way Flying Corps handled it. You would attack the tank from above several times with your machine guns till finally its tracks broke or maybe some bullets went through the softened up roof and it started to lightly smoke.

I hope this new sim to be a success, can't understand why there was no successful new commercial ww1 sim since 1998...

And I dearly hope for a german two seater, the Hannover CLIII or the Halberstadt CLII to have a aircraft for ground attack missions and a Schlasta campaign where you can man the back seat!
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/29/05 01:01 PM

Heini,

You're a man after my own heart! ;\)

I've been "pushing" for the inclusion of a German Battle Planes component on Third Wire's "WWI" forum for some time now, as the Schlastas were the true offensive fighter arm of the Luftstreitkrafte. If anyone wants to do IL-2 or Strike Fighters WWI, it's the Battle Flights that performed the valuable offensive and defensive ops directly above the trenches:

http://www.brushfirewars.org/weapons/aircraft_armament/wwi_german/ww1_german_aircraft_armament_1.htm

Ground attack tactics and infantry coordination was pioneered by the Germans in WWI, and was to be an even more essential factor in future war planning (of all the warring nations), had the war continued into 1919:

http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v2/v2n1/1919.html

A WWI sim that enables the highly interactive role of a 1st-person shooter (as a Hannover's CL.IIIa rear gunner engaging ground and aerial targets with MG and grenades would be), could open up a whole new avenue for high-fidelity flight simming.........ground attack/defense "Above The Trenches".



Artwork by Stan Stokes.
Posted By: Nikko

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/29/05 01:31 PM

I just hope they don't forget the french army, which was the most modern one at the end of WWI
Posted By: Cas141

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/29/05 03:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by KraziKanuK:
Cas,
did you mean Albatros III? Is this the B.III, C.III or D.III?
Blimey!! haven't got a clue, I'm afraid.You could go and see for yourself and let us know which it is \:\)
cheers
Posted By: Barkhorn1x

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/29/05 04:06 PM

Yes, immersion is key. And the FM’s should exhibit fidelity to what is generally known – and accepted - about WWI crates.

But there is MUCH more to immersion than a nice a/c modeling, a great FM and good DM and SFx. One of the reasons people still play RB3D is definitely the dynamic campaign w/ its “anything can happen at any time” feel – and the menus that add additional flavor, log books, kill boards, portrait choices, nationality appropriate cut scenes for medal awards, capture, crashes, death! These are the kinds of things that really add to my sense of immersion and exactly the kinds of things that are lacking in IL-2FB***

To me, flying around in a high fidelity reproduction of a combat a/c is pointless if I’m not doing something historically appropriate w/ it - and can immerse myself in the period(I NEVER could understand the appeal of MS Flight Simulator for just that reason). I just hope that these items are not an afterthought w/ this new sim – as they clearly where w/ IL-2 FB.


***Yes, I know IL-2 FB has a log, pilot portraits and medals. But compare them to the RB3D versions and you must admit that it is apples to oranges – and I LIKE oranges.

Barkhorn.
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/29/05 04:20 PM

Florida oranges?
Posted By: Sturmovik_Shots

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/29/05 07:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WWCephas:
... if the tanks are made to half scale like they are in IL2 ...
Not true.
Many of the buildings are too small, but as far as I know, vehicles in IL-2 have the correct size. Which tanks are made to half scale, in your experience?
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/29/05 08:11 PM

IL2 engine has hooks for campaign engine though it could use more functions.

The community can and I'm sure will supply 3rd party engines if only the access specs are published. Things like FBDaemon and Lowengrins DCG are examples of what kind of thing is possible. Just what exactly can be done though is really not completely known.

The missing part to my view is the ability of the game to pass execution or just screen view to an engine and then start back up running from whatever mission that engine has made -- given that the engine handles all the immersion scenes, screens and sounds.

Really, I think that may also be entirely possible now and since the series started but no one who can do the graphical end has tried... maybe. Graphics do get painted by devicelink programs. The log does pass info to those engines. IL2 does stop to wait for user input. It'd be cleaner and easier if the game would run a program named in the ini (and reliquishing screen/sound/input control) and pick up when that task ended, but perhaps not neccessary or perhaps already doable.

I'd love to see a campaign engine that would utilize player templates done in html for the actual immersive between mission displays. I feel that such a thing would allow a massive amount of material to be made.

Think of the game itself as a tool. A tool we would all want to buy because of all the growing number of things we can do with it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/29/05 09:52 PM

I've enjoyed reading many books about WWI flying, but I would not look forward to a realistic/"sim" game of it. Most WWI planes were dogs, they barely had enough power to keep them in the air. Dogfights usually were two or three brief turns, after which both planes were out of energy and scraping the ground. The only way a WWI game would be fun is if it was NOT too realistic when it comes to how much power the planes have.

As I recall, the original Red Baron PC game actually attempted to simulate this correctly. You would have to fly in a straight and level slow climb for quite a long time just to get some altitude/energy that would take only seconds to fritter away in a turning encounter with an enemy plane. Then it's back to another slow climb, and hope the enemy is just vulnerable. Not fun. It was a pretty game for it's time though -- one of the first games to have really nice-looking 3-D plane models.
Posted By: TooCool_12f

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/29/05 11:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WWCephas:
... if the tanks are made to half scale like they are in IL2 ...
I thought that too... and then came across the military museum in Belgrade... there, I saw a couple of WWI and WWII tanks and was amazed at how small these things are (you can see some photos in my gallery, in signature below). barely bigger than a Jeep Cherokee (only maybe somewhat wider), and definitely having less space inside...
Posted By: Ian Boys

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/29/05 11:31 PM

Marc, you've got some great aviation shots in your gallery! Enjoyed looking through them ...
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/30/05 02:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by herk_jockey

You would have to fly in a straight and level slow climb for quite a long time just to get some altitude/energy that would take only seconds to fritter away in a turning encounter with an enemy plane. Then it's back to another slow climb, and hope the enemy is just vulnerable.
(I think you've characterized the essence of WWI dogfighting limitations rather well here) \:\)

From the words of veteran Camel pilot Captain Arthur H. Cobby RFC/AFC:

Of course, in this early kind of fighting, the man who wins is just the better of a couple of very dud fighters. You fly all possible ways except the right, jerking the machine about, yanking it here and there, and so on. Later when one has become accustomed to the enemy tactics, and has had perhaps a dozen combats, and been in a good many dog-fights, he deliberates, and never goes into a scrap unless he has the Hun where he wants him. When an experienced pilot is out waiting for single enemy machines, the hostile pilot he is stalking is as good as dead before even a shot is fired, and it just requires that final impetus to send him under - to such a fine art has his aerial fighting been reduced.

To read the full text of this excellent article on WWI combat tactics check here:

http://www.australianflyingcorps.org/story/2005/2/24/95913/4564

What was never achieved by Red Baron, or by any other WWI flight sim of the past, is the ability to actually hunt within the game's limited combat arena, this because of the lack of high-fidelity environmental effects, and the inabilty of our PC's and older game engines to render sighting visuals at realistic ranges. Essentially Red Baron, and all other WWI flight sims from the 90's modeled WWI combat as fighting within a "fish bowl". For this reason, simulated engagements often only recreated (or degenerated) into close-in dogfighting, because the true hunting and maneuvering to contact that epitomized WWI aerial combat in its most advance form was impossible to achieve......the games simply could not recreate the visual fidelity of skies full of realistic clouds, or sun glare effects, or the spotting of enemy flights at extended ranges that allowed for experienced leaders to maneuver for advantage before the attack (or not). ;\)

Although we can read about, and understand WWI aerial tactics, we've truly never been able to wholly simulate these tactics in our favorite sims of the past. But now, with the higher quality visuals allowed by sims like IL-2/FB, and in other advance-rendering sims like CFS3, we're starting to see what can be achieved in this arena with preparing the aerial battlefield to enable combat maneuvering (before we're forced into "lock-down" type dogfighting).

Actually, although Herk Jockey is perfectly correct in his understanding of the dynamics of the dogfight, and the consequences of losing energy in a turning engagement, we've not had a chance to experience the hunting aspect of WWI aerial warfare, because we've not had a WWI flight sim actually recreate the high-fidelity environment needed for us to experience anything but myopic in-fighting (no pun intended). \:D

With the smaller differentials in performance displayed by WWI aircraft, and the smaller rates for closing and extending from combat, often once a pilot committed to the dogfight, much was left to luck........and afterall, experienced pilots and leaders tried to minimize what was left to chance.

I for one look forward to experiencing what I consider a truer test of simulated aerial combat in WWI, the "hunt" and the "maneuvering" that occurred while pilots and flights were spotted (at range), and undertook the effort to effect advantage.......before any guns started chattering away.

As Cobby intimated in with his "dicta".....Later when one has become accustomed to the enemy tactics, and has had perhaps a dozen combats, and been in a good many dog-fights, he deliberates, and never goes into a scrap unless he has the Hun where he wants him.....to such a fine art has his aerial fighting been reduced.

Just some of my opinion on comparing history to sims.......or sims to history.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/30/05 04:47 AM

I think that some people should read more on WWI fighters and the great span of development that was achieved between 1915 and 1918. Perhaps check out the changes in not only top speeds but also in climb rates. Top rated fighters 1917-1918 sere certainly more than able to get out of their own way and to run flat circles. Losing alt was certain when trying to pull more than sustainable G's but anyone able to extend could make it up quickly enough.

Those planes were good enough that the basic rules as laid out by Boelcke still apply today. Please don't characterize all WWI fighters by the standards of 1914-1915.
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/30/05 05:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TooCool_12f:
I thought that too... and then came across the military museum in Belgrade... there, I saw a couple of WWI and WWII tanks and was amazed at how small these things are (you can see some photos in my gallery, in signature below). barely bigger than a Jeep Cherokee (only maybe somewhat wider), and definitely having less space inside...
Specs on the German tank posted earlier

Specifications
Crew 18
Weight 73,700 lbs
Length 26' 3"
Width 10' .5"
Height 10' 10"

Range 25 miles
Armor 0.39 - 1.18"
Armament 57mm, 6 x MG
Engine 2 x 100hp
Performance 8 mph

The British MK V

Specifications Crew 8
Weight 29 tons (Male) 28 tons (Female)
33 tons (Male*) 32 tons (Female*)
35 tons (Male**) 34 tons (Female **)
Height 8.68'
Length 26.5'
32.4' (Star)
Width 12.84' (Male) 10.5' (Female)

Range 45 miles
Armor 6 - 12mm
Armament 2 x 6pdr, 4 x MG (Male) 6 x MG (Female)
Engine Ricardo gasoline 150hp
Ricardo gasoline 225hp (V*)
Performance 4.6 mph

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/

Not exactly small.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/30/05 10:43 AM

The established principles of gaining height advantage in aerial combat, so as to dive on one's opponent...and then to zoom away to regain position, reflects the basic tenet of aerial combat tactics and maneuver. Extended dogfighting not only erodes airspeed, but it also disadvantages the combatants through their loss of situational awareness, and the inevitable loss of energy as any turning dogfight will extract from those involved (it's the qualitative difference between choosing to maneuver in the horizontal, or the vertical planes).

Boelke's dicta did not emphasize "turn and burn" dogfights, but well calculated slashing attacks on a disadvantaged (or totally unsuspecting opponent), followed by maneuver to regain position and therefore advantage.

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/comment/dicta-b.html

Unstable agility fighters rarely possessed the top airspeeds achieved by the inline stability fighters, but the inherent difference (and disadvantage) in airspeed differentials was regained in the dive, MvR knew this, and Cobby knew this, as did all experienced air fighters.

The advantage in WWI aerial comabt lay in mastering the hunt, and employing the slashing attack......and whenever possible.
Posted By: TooCool_12f

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/30/05 06:03 PM

KK, I never said that all tanks were small, but that I came across several of them that were definitely small vehicles


There were also some big ones... the one with a screenshot was definitely one of them... the french had also at least one big model, but they used much more of these:



or something like this:



for these two, and others I was simply standing in front, on a bit lower ground... and I could, basically, see the top of them and for this one:



PzIIIsomething (the name was not completely readable) the overall size was also something like a "standard" pick-up
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/30/05 06:03 PM

Probably the "hunt' aspect of the whole thing was reason for the Red Barons great success.

He was a lifelong hunter and user of firearms and put both skills to great use.

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of his victims where oblivious to thier fate until it was waaaay too late to do anything about it.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/30/05 08:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TooCool_12f:
KK, I never said that all tanks were small, but that I came across several of them that were definitely small vehicles
OK,

The last pic is a StuG III Ausf F.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/30/05 09:48 PM

MvR was an excellent marksman and made many kills from far away from the target. Probably a target who felt safe.

He also was a master of team tactics and known for getting assited kills. According to his brother Lothar, Manfred was a butcher.

The Germans had a system where ground units would notify air units of the presence of enemy planes by firing shells off to the side of the German flights. How many bursts and the direction told how many enemy planes and the direction of them.

Since each sides' shells had different color smoke (IIRC German was black smoke, Allied was white) the fliers could tell whose guns were firing. If you saw a lot of flak in the distance the color of your side then that would alert to enemy planes. RB2 and RB3D also used church bells as tips, at least if you were over your own side of the lines.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 11/30/05 09:54 PM

The Brit tanks and even the French FT's at least had a decent chance of crossing shelled terrain. Those Schneiders and IIRC there was a big French one just did not due to superstructure overhanging the treads.

6 pdr is right about 57mm.

There were quite a few armored cars from then, some were not too bad as long as they didn't hit rough or soft ground. Or too much hill. Or.....

Oh, and from post-war military books the really big important factor on the use of tanks is using them in large groups. The Brits pulled it off once of twice but only enough to demonstrate the principle. That's why I rate the terrain crossing ability so highly, and the mechanical reliability. It's also a surprise to find out how many Panzers did not make it to the start areas in the Battle of France, broke down on the 250 mile drive.

The book I had (never lend your references!) went so far as to list the ones that didn't make it to the start area and how far the ones that did got, account by account. Circa 1930, the book is "The Fighting Tanks" IIRC and has a reccomendation from then-Major Patton.
Posted By: TooCool_12f

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 12:29 AM

thanks for info KK ;\)


as for that last tank, here's another view of it:



I'm standing beside it, and I'm about 6ft tall...
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 02:08 AM

Great pics Too_Cool!

KK is completely correct, in that the casement vehicle above is a WW2 era German Sturmgeschutz III Ausf F, mounting the 7.5 cm Sturmkannone 40 L/48 (and is probably a late variant because it mounts the additional 30mm bolted on frontal armor of the F/8).

Anyway, the StuG III was termed an "assault gun", and although originally conceived as an infantry support vehicle capable of assisting the German Infantry Divisions in their offensive (and defensive) operations, was increasingly employed more as a "Jagdpanzer" (armored anti-tank destroyer). Basically mounting the assault gun version of the PaK40 antitank gun, the latter Stugs had advantages in the anti-armor role because they saved weight by not mounting a tank turret (and it's traversing mechanism), thus allowing heavier armor to be affix compared to the contemporary battle tank variant on the same chassis, the PzKpfw. III series (and this also streamlined production capability too).

The Sturmgeschutz concept was one of the most successful modifications of existing tank designs undertaken during the war years by the Germans, in that it's lower profile, good armor, armament, and mobility made it an excellent defensive weapon, that was still capable of performing it's original role of infantry support.

Many artillery crews of the Sturmgechutzen Brigades and Battalions earned decorations for valor (a number of Knights Crosses being awarded) for their exploits in combat, especially on the Eastern Front!

Again nice pics ToolCool, and the vehicle sports accurate-looking 3-color camo too.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 04:25 AM

The German Tank Ace Michael Wittman started out and made his name in the East Front commanding Stugs. He didn't use them defensively either. He hunted and killed Russian AT guns in his.

And then they gave him Tigers.

==============================================

But -- this thread is about WWI.

The Schneider, the St. Charmond, the Brit Marks...

And nobody had a good AT plane, did they?
Unless you count recon planes coupled with arty?
Posted By: Heini von Seppel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 08:15 AM

To the Sturmgeschütz topic:

They were highly rated by the few infantry veterans I had been able to speak to. Not many of them at all had seen german tanks in combat but Sturmgeschütze they all knew.

In attack they would come up and disable machine gun nests and strongpoints, in defence they were used as mobile and effective tank hunters as the usual anti armor cannons, the PAKs, were "suicide assignments" and often did not last long.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 11:49 AM

Well, to a certain degree our discussion here about the WW2 German Sturmgeschutzen has a connection to WWI, in that the later assault gun concept more closely resembled the Schneider, St. Chamond, Vicker's Mks, or the A7 designs of the Great War (with their limited weapon traversing), than the turreted tank concept reflected by FT17/18 design, which eventually defined what a "tank" or "main battle tank" was to become in later years.

The debate over the utility of maintaining inventories of casemate-type AFVs, alongside required MBTs, eventually ended with the former designs being dropped as the combat requirements of the two vehicles merged, and because of the neccessity to rationalize post-WW2 production budgets. Of course the Swedish S tank was somewhat of an anomaly in modern arsenals, but then Sweden's military doctrine doesn't neccessarily envision fighting offensive operations, where casemate-type vehicles are poor substitutes for turreted tanks, because of their limited traversing armament, and the requirement to maneuever the chassis in order to acquire targets beyond the vehicle's limited forward arc of fire.

But we'll all call the early WWI AFV's "tanks", considering that's what the Brits called them out of their original desire to keep their development clandestine to the enemy anyway. ;\)

Btw, nice observations Heini......I think American infantry troops during WW2 were also more likely to see the TD's assigned to their support (especially when in defensive deployment), as they were to see the Shermans from the independent tank battalions attached during their offensive operations.
Posted By: Ian Boys

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 11:58 AM

My grandfather was a StuG III battery commander and if you have Close Combat III there's a video of him awarding the EK2 to his sergeant.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 01:35 PM

Now that is very cool IB!!!

I don't have the game, but somebody should copy and host a frame from it for all of us to see. \:\)
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 01:36 PM

In the book "Under the guns of the Red Baron" - Norman Franks et al, MvR's combat reports are all listed ( retranslated ) and he often describes getting to within 50 and even 20 (!) yards before firing.

OTOH, a survivor of one of his kills also says how amazingly accurate he was in a diving attack - so even though he WAS a very good shot, he nevertheless did not fire from long distance unless he had to.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 01:49 PM

How far were the long shots he made?
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 03:28 PM

Just a bit of "color-commentary" here:

A number of authors have written that the Red Baron suffered not only physical trauma from his wounding in combat on July 6th, 1917, but as result of this near-death experience he was finally forced to realize that even through disciplined observance of the "rules" of combat, no man could ever wholly guard against the eventual day when luck turned against him. In the heady days of his ascension in combat, Richthofen at times felt comfortable to deride the fact that some of his "gentlemen" opponents in the Brit "barges" dared to fire at him from ranges he considered too far to be effective, this to the Baron reflected the nervous action of a rookie gunner, and foolishly signaled the inexperience of his quarry. To a degree, the arrogance of his well-earned knowledge and fame came to a stark collision with a head-grazing .303, and forced-realization that no man is invunerable despite what his intellect might lead him to believe!

Many contempoary's of MvR, and experts about the man's life, say he never fully recovered from the physical and psychological effects of an errant bullet fired from too far away to be of concern.

MvR did observed and teach Boelcke's rules of closing up on the enemy before firing, even though by all accounts he was a superb shot as was Guynemer and Fonck. At times he would fire at longer ranges hoping to cause a faster opponent to begin evasive maneuvering prematurely (not against 2-seaters though), but as a tactic of closing the distance on his target.

Generally, I think most would agree that long-range firing in WWI was discouraged by the experienced air fighters, but even the experts could fall a-foul of the seemingly most improbable of odds (and the laws of nature). ;\)
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 03:40 PM

Salute

One thing which is crucial that they incorporate in this WWI sim, and that is the effects of G maneuvering on the rear gunner.

If we have the type of AI gunner accuracy we see in IL-2 FB/PF, in this new Sim, then for a pilot flying a single seater, to attack a two seater will be akin to a deathwish. At the ranges nessesary to hit, ie. under 100 meters, the current modelling of the AI gunners is such that they can riddle an attacking aircraft almost every time. At the much slower speeds of the WWI birds, the attacking fighters will be so many clay pidgeons to be blasted out of the sky. Especially since these aircraft are so much more fragile, with no armour protection for the pilots at, ie. no 50mm glass windshield, no seat armour, no self sealing tanks, in most cases nothing but a doped canvas, (highly flammable) covered frame, and a sheet metal fuel tank which will gush out gas with the slightest hit.

In fact, a rear gunner in a maneuvering two seater was subjected to such forces, and thrown about so forcefully, that they were unable to even man the guns, let alone fire accurately.
Posted By: BusySilent

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 03:44 PM

An updated is posted here with new DM



"Some comments to the Fokker damage model (DM).
WWI planes damage model will have alot of difference to original IL2 damage model. Due to different construction and weapons, WWI plane construction where very hard to split in pieces, cause of tubes/beem construction which strapped by some extencive wiring. So actually there will be lack of fallen parts but alot of "smashed basket" effect. DM will have some number of DM parts wich will be able to rotate/move along each other, so we will be able to construct a different types of crashes/destructions/battle damage. Also, due to fabric covering on the planes, we add some interrior details of plane structure and you can see some details of it on the screenshots."
Posted By: Frankyboy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 03:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by *Buzzsaw*:
Salute

One thing which is crucial that they incorporate in this WWI sim, and that is the effects of G maneuvering on the rear gunner.

If we have the type of AI gunner accuracy we see in IL-2 FB/PF, in this new Sim, then for a pilot flying a single seater, to attack a two seater will be akin to a deathwish. At the ranges nessesary to hit, ie. under 100 meters, the current modelling of the AI gunners is such that they can riddle an attacking aircraft almost every time. At the much slower speeds of the WWI birds, the attacking fighters will be so many clay pidgeons to be blasted out of the sky. Especially since these aircraft are so much more fragile, with no armour protection for the pilots at, ie. no 50mm glass windshield, no seat armour, no self sealing tanks, in most cases nothing but a doped canvas, (highly flammable) covered frame, and a sheet metal fuel tank which will gush out gas with the slightest hit.

In fact, a rear gunner in a maneuvering two seater was subjected to such forces, and thrown about so forcefully, that they were unable to even man the guns, let alone fire accurately.
thats realy an important point to think about in this new sim.
because the reargunners , IF leaving like they are now in PF , will destroy the whole game.

try to attack an IL2 fieldmod ore just an U-2 with a Ki-43 ;\)

also very important is here the notice"bubble" of the AI , if you can realy sneak below and behind and enemy - not possible in the moment , at 200m distance they are aware of you.
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 03:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
How far were the long shots he made?
Will have to check tonight and post in morning ( home PC dead ).

Regarding gunners - MvR also talks about closing to between 50 and 100 yards, hitting the engine, plane goes down with "observer firing all the time" - guess they really were pretty innacurate as per above posts.
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 03:59 PM

Yes, I wish AI pilots had a Sky-scanning algorithm ( frequency and coverage determined by skill level ) with a "notice-arc".

That would let you sneak up effectively AND accurately penalise planes with ... regretful rear views.

Even WWI 2-seaters could be snuck up on if they were taking photos, directing artillery etc. - it was a labour-intensive process.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 05:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BusySilent:
An updated is posted here with new DM


Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:

Regarding the damage model, I think it is very important to have quite a significant change from Il-2, namely that the planes will not just fall apart in many pieces, but will be able to crumple. I don't know how it should be done, but WWI planes were made of wire and lacquered textiles, so the damage model should reflect this, i.e. have some crumpling (wings folding up and staying attached to the plane, etc). I guess it will be a b!tch to program, though... But crumpling is a must, also since WWI planes very often suffered structural failure and just fell out of the sky. Also burning should eat away at the structure...
HOT DAMN'!!!! - Look at that damage screenie!!

This is just what I hoped for! (see above quote)

The damage model outlined is just exactly what it should be: KUDOS to the programmers!
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 05:16 PM

Salute

Couple comments about Manfred Von Richtofen and the effects of his injury:

MvR was the son of a Prussian aristocrat, (albeit not a particularly wealthy one) and he grew up with the concept of war as a big game. He was also an avid hunter, who liked nothing better than to gain trophies. His original regiment was mounted, (hence his ranks were cavalry ranks, ie. "Ritter", instead of Hauptmann) and he didn't see a lot of the horrible trench warfare combat which the infantry were subjected to.

When he transferred to the German Air Service, he arrived in single seaters at exactly the right time, ie. when the Germans were on the technological upswing, with total superiourity. The Albatros DII and DIII were considerably better than most of their opposition. Plus most of the British aircraft MvR encountered were nearly defenceless two seaters. If you look at the list of the aircraft he shot down between his debut in the fall of 1916, and the time of his wounding in the spring of 1917, most are BE-2's or RE-8's. In the case of the BE-2, this was an aircraft which could barely do 65 mph, had the gunner position in the forward seat, where operator had a very limited field of fire, and was notable for being extremely unmaneuverable. (the British 1913 design team which created the aircraft were using a set of criteria from the RFC which emphasised stability and easy operation, to the point that the BE took forever to roll into a bank) Rarely he encountered Allied fighters with competent pilots, even when that happened as with his fight with Major Lanoe Hawker, his opponent was flying an obsolete DH-2, which was 40 kph slower than his Albatros, with a significantly inferior climb.

So it is understandable that he treated aerial as nothing more than a more interesting version of a hunting party, with trophies to be collected, (for a while he took something from every aircraft he shot down) and awarding himself a silver engraved cup for each victory, with the type and date carefully inscripted.

But as 1917 wore on, his opponents gradually became more difficult, he encountered the Sopwith Triplanes, which were clearly superior to the Alb DIII, (although in very small numbers, most of the British fighters were Nieuport 17's which were inferior to the Albatros's over 10,000 ft) he nearly died when a wing of his Albatros DIII partially collapsed, and finally he was hit in the combat with the FE-2E's.

By the way, the hit was not as much of an accident as might be expected. The FE-2E was actually quite a doughty opponent, the same Squadron which wounded MvR had shot down an killed another German Ace earlier. When the FE's formed a defensive circle, with each aircraft following the other's tail, the gunners had a stable platform to fire from, with multiple gunners able to focus on the lead attacking aircraft. (MvR invariably led the attacks)

And if a German fighter was silly enough to slow down and dogfight an FE, he often got a real surprise, since, while slow, they had a very tight turning circle.

MvR was lucky enough that the combat occurred on the German side of the lines, (as they most often did during this period due to RFC commander "Boom" Trenchard's orders for his airmen to be aggressive) or his career would have ended at that point.

Although MvR was definitely seriously affected by his injury, and re-entered the aerial ring much chastened, I do not agree that he was severely psychologically impaired.

He certainly put aside much of his earlier boyishness, but the changes were also positive.

He directed his energies to improving the lot of the German Air Service, focusing on improving training, getting high quality aircraft, and generally acting as the senior Jagdflieger should. It was due to his efforts that the Fokker DVII was picked as the replacement for the Alb DVa and DR1.

He was not in a hurry to get back to combat, but his time away was not wasted, and the administrative work he did was invaluable.

However, when he came back, he was faced with a much different enviroment.

The Germans no longer had technological superiority, the Alb DVa was inferior to the Spad XIII, Camel and SE5a, and the DR1, although a superb dogfighter, was too slow. (the DVII only arrived a few days before he was killed, and he didn't fly it in combat)

Plus he was now expected to lead the Jagdgeschwader in an offensive role, flying over the enemy side of the lines, in support of the German Spring 1918 offensive. Which meant supporting the ground attack aircraft, flying at low levels with all the dangers that entailed, ie. AAA, plus the potential of being bounced by Allied Squadrons entering the fray from a superior altitude. (as was the case with MvR's last combat when Brown's Camel Flight attacked from a superior alt)

MvR was definitely suffering from headaches and tired more easily, so that he would retire to his cabin immediately after a combat to rest, but he was scoring at a very high rate, and showing no impairment of his extraordinary gunnery skills. (he was also a very fine pilot as well, but quite rightly emphasised gunnery as the most important aspect of combat flying) If you look at his kills during this period, they were the most dangerous enemy aircraft types.

His luck ran out with the lucky AAA MG round which hit him, (if it was AAA) but in any case, having a Camel on your tail on the enemy side of the lines is not a recipe for longevity.

By that stage, he was clearly expecting to die, (simple mathematics told him he would be unlikely to survive) but it was not a fearful anticipation on his part. He was clearly determined to do his duty to the best of his abilities, and to present an example to his fellow German pilots.

If there is a stage of MvR's career that is the most admirable, it would be this period, AFTER his injury, when he focused on his responsibilities, improved the lot of the G.A.S. Pilots, and continued to fly and fight in an extraordinarily effective fashion.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 05:44 PM

Re: the damage screenie, and just to be nitpicking a lot... - The pulled-off strips of wing canvas could do with slightly more ragged edges, they look a bit too cleanly ripped-off now... Also a sprinkling of bullet holes would be nice.

Fabulous British and French tank models in the screenies!
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 05:47 PM

I'm noticing that the ripped-off pieces of canvas appear semi-transparent in the render, both on the wings and on the fuselage (where the Balkankreuz is). I'm guessing this could mean that the canvas might be rendered in a different of way there, maybe even FLAPPING! That would indeed invalidate my above remark... Well, stunning-looking render in any case.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 06:14 PM

Sorry if it sounded like I indicated MvR lost his nerve after his head injury, as he did not!

Quote:
Originally posted by *Buzzsaw*:

By that stage, he was clearly expecting to die, (simple mathematics told him he would be unlikely to survive) but it was not a fearful anticipation on his part. He was clearly determined to do his duty to the best of his abilities, and to present an example to his fellow German pilots.
Although von Richthofen soldier on, taking on greater command responsibilites for JG 1 in fact, I ascribe to many author's opinions that his wounding in the summer of '17 did in fact change his demeanor, with the almost inevitable result of anyone who considered his approach to air combat as more science than art, and that his near-death experience would have caused a man of his temperment to certainly reconsider what the chances of his surviving the conflict had become.

Also Buzz:

Quote:
By the way, the hit was not as much of an accident as might be expected. The FE-2E was actually quite a doughty opponent, the same Squadron which wounded MvR had shot down an killed another German Ace earlier. When the FE's formed a defensive circle, with each aircraft following the other's tail, the gunners had a stable platform to fire from, with multiple gunners able to focus on the lead attacking aircraft. (MvR invariably led the attacks)
There's was no way for Richthofen to had known the experience of 2nd/Lieutenant A.E.Woodbridge, the F.E.'s gunner, but engaging with a Lewis Gun in aerial combat at a range of 300 yards was considered too distant for accurate fire, and to this extent even Woodbridge himself did not feel justified to put in a claim for Richthofen's out of control aircraft, because of the improbabilty that he had indeed scored a telling hit on this diving red Albatros.

Most experience fighter pilots considered engaging the aircrews of multi-seater aircraft more challenging than tackling single-seaters, this is why maneuver and tactics was so important to the suucessful hunting of the army cooperation aircraft. If one attempted to engage an aware mult-seater crew, which possessed an active and efficient defensive armament, the use of feint attacks and numbers was advised, otherwise fighter pilot were instructed to avoid the enemy until advantage was secured.

Again, if a sim doesn't create the conditions (read: visuals) that enable the "hunt", you'll not have a combat arena where true wartime tactics can be deployed, but rather something artificial-like and insular only to the simulated game environment itself.
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 06:33 PM

Anyone have the design and colors used by late war Jastas?

For example, some I know of:

Jasta 27 had a yellow stab/elevator with a black anchor and a yellow cowl

Jasta 19 had a yellow stab/elevator with a single wide black stripe set at an angle on each side and a white cowl

Jasta 15 had black(3) and white(2) stripes set at an angle of the leading edge of the stab/elevator.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 06:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
- The pulled-off strips of wing canvas could do with slightly more ragged edges, they look a bit too cleanly ripped-off now... Also a sprinkling of bullet holes would be nice.
at the moment we are workin over alfa-textures on the main skin (its about ripped edgges and bullet holes) so the actual screenshot skin shows, lets say, an example of cutaway with damaged parts desposition ;\)
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 07:17 PM

yes, I guessed it was so VikS! - Looking forward to more renders!

buzzsaw, thx a lot for your interesting posting on v. richthofen.
Posted By: TooCool_12f

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 10:50 PM

Considering distances at which they used to shoot at each other, you should notice that these planes turned extremely tightly...

for those not too far from paris, you should visit the ferté alais airfield where, usually on first weekend of june (3&4 june 2006 is the next one), you have a meeting with a bunch of WWI birds... and you can believe me, when they turn around each other, even if they are collection aircraft (and therefore, note pushed too much) they really turn like nothing else I've seen before... what's more, their maximum speeds are barely superior to take off speeds of WWII warbirds...

from there on, I guess that, to have any chance of hitting another aircraft, they really needed to be very close, say 50 yards maximum (at bigger distances, it was more matter of luck than marksmanship... considering how much these planes "move" in flight
Posted By: Ronbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/01/05 11:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
Quote:
Regarding the damage model, I think it is very important to have quite a significant change from Il-2, namely that the planes will not just fall apart in many pieces, but will be able to crumple. I don't know how it should be done, but WWI planes were made of wire and lacquered textiles, so the damage model should reflect this, i.e. have some crumpling (wings folding up and staying attached to the plane, etc). I guess it will be a b!tch to program, though... But crumpling is a must, also since WWI planes very often suffered structural failure and just fell out of the sky. Also burning should eat away at the structure...
HOT DAMN'!!!! - Look at that damage screenie!!

This is just what I hoped for! (see above quote)

The damage model outlined is just exactly what it should be: KUDOS to the programmers! [/QB]
That screen is very good, especially if they add the bullet holes and flapping canvas.

but the planes should not 'crumple' if shot. only if structural failure happens by approaching VNE. that shot shows the plane crashed, as the wing is bent and the fuse broken.

they have the proper concept, which is very good.
Posted By: ishbu

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 12:13 AM

any mention of trackir support? 6dof??
Posted By: TooCool_12f

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 07:35 AM

since it's based in IL2 engine, no 6dof support IMO
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 07:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronbo:

but the planes should not 'crumple' if shot. only if structural failure happens by approaching VNE. that shot shows the plane crashed, as the wing is bent and the fuse broken.

they have the proper concept, which is very good.
Well, if some of the struts and wires are shot out, then I definitely think there should be crumpling, if a plane tries to do a tight turn in a structurally weakened state. I don't think there was much structural redundancy in those light-weight fighters. But, you're right, it should mainly be reserved for planes that fly too fast and then pull out. The other cases should be rare... - but the more spectacular they will be then!

Interesting question about 6DOF, I'd like to know as well!
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 10:14 AM

I hate to ask but are there shots of the terrain anywhere?

Bit over-excited sorry but do you blame me \:\)

Flapping-canvas sound effect

You can nick the sound of the flapping flag in BF2. I never said that btw.

Ming
Posted By: Cas141

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TooCool_12f:
since it's based in IL2 engine, no 6dof support IMO
I think that will need a rethink, especially as to what the "norm" will be at the time of release.
Not necessary i know, but it would be a lost opportunity.
If you have FS9 and 6DOF, download and add Stuart Greens Albatross lll and fly that. You will see 6DOF in all its glory. Infcat, it's almost essential to take off in a straight line \:\)
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 12:55 PM

6DoF is not in FB becasue the pits would need to be redone. SInce these will be new I'm sure they will make this an option. Giving everyone the ability to lean would help everyone not just the track ir folks.
Posted By: Feathered_IV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 01:19 PM

Very nice.

I really hope that Red is not the hard-wired default skin for the Fokker. We can't all be Richthofen at the same time.
Posted By: BusySilent

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 01:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ishbu:
any mention of trackir support? 6dof??
I asked developers the same question on Gennadich English Forum and here what Viks said: "We cant say it now, but we will try."
Posted By: Ronbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 01:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
[/qb]
Well, if some of the struts and wires are shot out, then I definitely think there should be crumpling, if a plane tries to do a tight turn in a structurally weakened state. I don't think there was much structural redundancy in those light-weight fighters. But, you're right, it should mainly be reserved for planes that fly too fast and then pull out. The other cases should be rare... - but the more spectacular they will be then!
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Not sure what you mean by structural redundancy. the construction of the ww1 crates is virtually the same as todays light cessna size aircraft. main spars, aft spars, ribs etc. just the materials were wood, canvas and steel tube vs todays all metal/composite contruction. some more than others. IE, DR1 vs the Albatros with its all wood monocoque fuselage. Similiar to the Hurricane and Mosquito.
But i expect if a strut were hit, it should weaken. if the pilot now over G's the plane, the wing could suffer structural failure at a lower G setting.
I hope that an emphasis on the shooting of control cables and flying wires is less likely than the shooting of the struts. Just about all kills were achieved by killing the pilot/observers or tank fire. rounds then werent as explosive on impact as WW2 rounds to hit wires that were 1/4 in diameter or less, much less when vibrating back and forth.
The designers should have alot to consider if they wish this to be the next definative WW1 sim. Something that will last as long or longer than Rb3D and satisfy most requirements at least.
One can only hope...
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 01:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
But, you're right, it should mainly be reserved for planes that fly too fast and then pull out. The other cases should be rare... - but the more spectacular they will be then![/QB]
I agree with all but the other rare cases part. The spars were made of wood, weren't they?(98% anyway!). I would think that a couple of 30 cal/7mm rounds passing through the spar would, of course, cause them to fail quickly under the g forces of a hard turn.

Just the effect of flying in a stabilized manner generates a heck of a load though, and the wings are under a significant load from the taut covering and the support wires as well.

Seen more than a few pics of WW1 planes that appeared to have "folded up" and fell straight down to crash in a heap. Come to think of it, the majority of the crash scenes that I've seen looked to be in a pile rather than scattered about a larger area.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 02:17 PM

Were not bracing/flying wires flatened rods not 'wire'.

Is tail trim going to be implimented on a/c that had it? The SE5a did and I think the Camel/Snipe.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 03:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronbo:
Not sure what you mean by structural redundancy. the construction of the ww1 crates is virtually the same as todays light cessna size aircraft. main spars, aft spars, ribs etc. just the materials were wood, canvas and steel tube vs todays all metal/composite contruction.
Very few WWI aircraft were built using cantilever wing construction, as was incorporated in the Fokker Dr.I, D.VII, and D.VIII, and only because these types had wings which allowed room for internal self-supporting construction (because of their "fatter" airfoil sections).

Most WWI aircraft required flying wires, landing wires, bracing wires, and drag wires to maintain the wing cellule's integrity. If enough bracing support was lost, the wings could collapse (or simply break away in flight).

Of course, we're talking specifically on the forum here about screenshots showing damage modelling on the Fokker triplane, which had cantilever wings, but most WWI aircraft did not. On top of all this, the early wing-warping mononplanes (and biplanes) had wing structures that allowed for some internal movement to fascillitate rolling, and the wings of these aircraft were even less robust than those of later wartime aircraft.

Same goes to fuselage construction, as Fokker later used the technique of welded tube construction, while Junkers and Breguet used duralumin internally), still, most manufacters during the war used internal wire-braced wooden construction.

Doing simulated battle damage on WWI aircraft can be lots more complex than doing it for WW2 or modern airframes.
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 04:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
Doing simulated battle damage on WWI aircraft can be lots more complex than doing it for WW2 or modern airframes.
Yeah, but with a lot less "other" things to model, there should be plenty of scope for much more complex damage.

( and thinking about it, it may be that difficulty in modelling "wing-warping" planes in the IL2 engine is the reason for choosing the 1916-18 period rather than the whole war )
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 04:51 PM

Yeah!

Well WWI aircraft models are pretty complex 3D creations too, with lots of wings, struts, externally exposed armament, along with all shorts of draggy appendages and bumps here and there.

Certainly things like complex engine management, and lots of cockpit instruments don't need to be modeled, but then WWI aircraft coud have some pretty complex (in a primitive short of way) operations to perform too, like having to close off the fuel taps in order to perform some maneuvers, or having to monitor the fuel tank pressure and charging it up periodically with a cockpit air pump in order to prevent "lean cut", making sure to twist-in the engine greaser every now and then to lubricate the water pump on the inlines, or making the requisite adjustments to the air/fuel mixture levers on a rotary engine every couple of hundred feet of altitude, or worse, having to do these critical engine adjustments in the middle of transitioning in your Camel right after take-off, all the while compensating for gyroscopic precession and engine torque from a spinning Clerget or Bentely up front (the reason why so many pilots died in training).

Some of this WWI stuff might be "too real" in fact.

What's going to be interesting to see, are what things GT judges it needs to leave out of the sim.......to make it playable! ;\)
Posted By: Subedai

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 09:16 PM

Judging by FB experience, if FMs end up too hardcore it will end up turning a lot of people off. User friendly is not a term you could use with the average WWI scout. As long as the FMs are plausible, I think most people will be happy.

I also hope that the flyable planes list gets expanded a little. A WWI sim without a flyable S.E.5.a or a Pfalz D.III or D.XII. Even without them this is looking like a must buy. Almost tempts me to reinstall Red Baron 3d to tide me over until it comes out.

S!
Fred.
Posted By: ishbu

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 11:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BusySilent:
Quote:
Originally posted by ishbu:
any mention of trackir support? 6dof??
I asked developers the same question on Gennadich English Forum and here what Viks said: "We cant say it now, but we will try."
Well I certainly hope so,Just got my trackir 4 pro and have been flying the jenny and tigermoth and Stearman in FS9 with 6dof and it ROCKS!
Would love to see it implemented here. Getting a hardon just thinking about it.
Posted By: Heini von Seppel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/02/05 11:26 PM

Yes Fred, at least one Pfalz is a must for a sim like that.
I love the beauty of the DIII/DIIIa. It would als be nice as balloon buster and to have a well diving german machine.

And the SE should be flyable too. The RFC need an inline engine machine, too.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 12:27 AM

I agree Fred, but others may think they really want the real deal.

One thing I've always tried to bring up during the opening ceremonies of the latest WWI sim project, is that simmers really don't want to fly WWI "full real". Like you've suggested above Fred, the FMs need to be plausible, and have that authentic-like feel, but not "full real" for sure! As an explanation, let me just mention a few general characteristics attributed to flying aircraft of this era (again these are just general attributes, not meant to encompass every aircraft's handling characteristics during the war).

Anyway, there were a host of pilot control issues that the average civilian and military pilot of today never dreamed of, as these flight problems were worked out of aeronautical design through deliberate testing and research programs instituted following WWI, and long before any of us chanced to fly a Cessna.

First, there were the "ergonomic" issues of flying the era's aeroplanes, such as the lacking of balanced and/or harmonized controls. WWI pilots struggled with widely divergent strength and deflection requirements needed for coordinated flying (one reason for those multi-grip joysticks of the day). Design efforts to boost and harmonize piloting loads brought about the incorporation of horn-balancing of control surfaces. Still, if the controls worked well (as with the Fokker D.VII and SE5a for example), planes were often rigged "tail heavy", requiring a pilot to apply constant forward stick pressure until the inevitable weight shift occurred as full tanks drained dry.

Having learned to overcome these piloting deficiencies, airmen needed to compensate for ailerons that inparted adverse yaw (opposite yaw to the direction of the roll input), and gyroscopic precession (caused by propellor and rotary engines), which applied an additional pitching force 90 degrees from the intended change in flight (advanced in the direction of the rotating mass). As if this all weren't enough to handle, airframe designs that incorporated full-floating rudders and elevators required constant flight corrections as these unstabilized surfaces "hunted" for equilibrium.

Without having to go into the work load required to manage the often tempermental nature of early power plants (which I touched a little on above without mentioning the technique taught to master the coupe switch....for rotary ignition blipping). We've not mentioned the ground handling issues of taxying without brakes, or trying to maneuver on the ground against a non-castering tail skid designed to track straight against the onset of engine torque as full take-off power is applied.

I'm hoping some sort of scenario might be emerging here that present a rather daunting picture of what "full real" simming in the Great War might encompass, one which I don't think can, nor even should be fully attempted. Even if accomplished, and given the opportunity for us all to try, the first thing most simmers will think is...........gee, I must need to recalibrate or dial-in my joystick settings, because this game's planes fly like crap! ;\)
Posted By: Redwolf2

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 06:20 AM

A preview video of OFF: http://www.polovski.com/off/Movies/OFF-MOVIE1.wmv

\:D
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 09:58 AM

Break a couple of the wrong frame members on a stick and wire section and there'd be no wait for extra G's to see that section roll in on itself. Them wires was kept tight!

I can see that Gennadich will need at least 3 different kinds of modes for damage just to do a regular set of planes and more than one mode on some.

Albatross monocoque was not all just wood, IIRC, and known for making a very resilient to damage fuselage although heavy.

I also don't expect 6dof simply because adding that to the IL2 engine as capability presents a lot of work to do on code that was announced long ago as extremely hard to add features to. AKA spagetti, aka opening a can of worms, aka not in the original design. Doing so would take up a lot of budget.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 02:15 PM

I'm pretty sure that the fuse of the Albatross series was sheeted with what would now be known as plywood.

I'm not sure if this was where the concept and first application of plywood was developed and put to practical use.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 02:28 PM

Redwolf, I just watched your promo-all I can say is holy crap!!!

It made me realize how badly I want to fly a WW1 sim again. I threw out CFS3 long ago-I may have to pick up a "used" disk to try Flanders Field.

When I think back to how fast CFS3 was on my old computer-it'd smoke on the AMD64 3500 and 6800GT I have now.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Ronbo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 02:31 PM

FlyXwire

I stand/sit corrected for the most part. i was away this week and focused on the DR1 in the screen. still, most airplanes had the basics there, ribs, a main and aft spar, and basic bulkheads. internal wire bracing in wings was of course more prevelant on most planes vs the DR1 shown. but the basics contruction is still there.
not much different than todays homebuilt or light aircraft. just subsitute aluminum/composite skins, bulkheads etc which add more strength than steel tube canvas and wood.

Tho, i still stand that taking out control wires would be very rare, and the struts would be more likely. spars and ribs, yes would weaken the frame. most kills would be flamers or pilot/observer kills. Bullets would simply go through the open bays of the planes, causing holes only. perhaps I am still stuck on the visual cue RB2/3D had when it came to modeling damage when 'crumpling' is mentioned.

I see the sim is in good hands if you have input into the particulars.

one note: some(most?) fuel tanks were located in front of the pilot, therefore the CG would not change, except perhaps more rearward if at all. on those that did have them aft of the pilot (camel) it probably did, making matters worse for the pilot in a very manouverable plane to begin with. some pilots rigged their planes for tail heavy so they could easly manouver around vs a nose heavy, more 'stable' platform. not desired in a fighter.
couple that with the undercambered airfoils which produced alot of lift and thus, depending on plane, causing it to pitch up constantly.

when we flew the Advanced FM in RB3d, we constantly had to input changes to keep the plane level. tho, perhaps it was very mild compared to the real deal. for the old timers, it wont be much of a stretch. but for those new, it could be very frustrating and tiring..

I agree, with the differences in planes and their various ways to control engine, fuel, oil mixtures (lets not forget radiator equipped A/C) the pilot can have alot of unusual (new) things to take care of vs the 'modern' WW2 aircraft. August 1998 Flight Journal has an excellent description of the flying characteristics of the Sopwith Camel repro. Much of the intricacies of flying a WW1 fighter you had mentioned earlier are there.
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 03:35 PM

I would still like to know if tail trim will be modelled on a/c that had it, like the SE5a.
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 03:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by copterdrvr:
I'm pretty sure that the fuse of the Albatross series was sheeted with what would now be known as plywood.

I'm not sure if this was where the concept and first application of plywood was developed and put to practical use.

Copterdrvr
Section view taken from the Smithsonian book on their restoration of an Albatros D.Va.



and the plan views of the frames



I would recommend getting this book. Loads of info on the restoration and the D.Va.

The a/c, http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/albatros.htm
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 04:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
One thing I've always tried to bring up during the opening ceremonies of the latest WWI sim project,
Hey FlyXwire, it has been very interesting to read your latest postings, you're obviously very knowledgeable when it comes to these old crates!

I didn't quite understand it, are you affiliated with this Gennadich venture?

I don't see a problem at all with a hi-fidelity simulation. Of course you will be able to turn all the difficult stuff off, just as we can now with FB/PF. Very many people fly with unlimited ammo, simple engine management, wonder-woman view, etc, I think we hard-core simmers at SimHQ tend to forget that.
Posted By: Fenrir

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 04:30 PM

Have to say FlyXwire, after reading ur post on ww1 a/c handling characteristics, then gimme the works man! Can u imagine the satisfaction in actually gaining a kill, or even simply just mastering such tricky aeroplanes? I'd relish it!

Got to be accessible for all tho, I know...
Posted By: tater

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/03/05 05:20 PM

How will they do throttle control on rotaries? Cylinder selection and kill button?

tater
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/04/05 01:33 AM

Here's an image assembly showing German airframe details (from authentic replica builds) that I photographed at the WWI Fly-in at Dayton, Ohio in 2003.



Now I'm not a member of the Gennadich Team, just an avid WWI flight sim fan like lots of you guys here!

I have been a development member for three WWI mods (FS-WWI, Richthofen Skies, and Over Flanders Fields), besides doing research and resourcing for a number of failed commercial efforts of the past, but unfortunately we've seen announced retail projects come and go, while waiting for the torch to be passed one day from the last significant commercial success of this era, the venerable Red Baron of nearly a decade ago!

Currently we have advance information on two promising WWI sim's under development (Third Wire's, and "Knights" from the Gennadich Team), along with a third project from Russia. In addition to these, the soon to be released WWI mod to CFS3 (Over Flanders Fields) promises to raise the bar of excellence close to what we might expect from a commercial venture. Still, many of us have lived through the demise of 17-Hours, Birds of Prey, and Knights Over Europe, so we know the road to final completion is a long one. In the meantime, the simming community can play a positive role in helping to encourage these promising new projects forward, through the process of active particpation in discussions like these, and by helping in resourcing too.

I think we're all encouraged by the fact that WWI simming may finally be coming in from the cold, and just wanted to reflect a bit on the part each of us may be able to play in helping, what is ultimately, in our own best interest.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/04/05 02:32 AM

Btw, Ronbo mentioned engine management requirements for the water-cooled types, things like manually adjusting the radiator's air flow to maintain proper operating temperature.

Here's a few different views for the shutters on the SE5a:



LOL.....makes me shudder all over just thinking of the possibilities! \:D
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/04/05 12:36 PM

Hey, is anyone here into leather? ;\)



Well nice airframe, but she'll cost you a cool 1.5 million on e-bay.....($).....



I don't think too many of us can handle that!

Besides, I hear she's pretty high-strung, very high maintenance, and all business...... \:D



Guys,

You'll really want to check out this website on the Sopwith Camel, it's got sections on Camel history, details on the featured restoration job (actually, some experts say it's closer to a replica), and a nice picture viewer:

http://www.1917sopwithcamel.com/
Posted By: Sinbad 2

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/04/05 03:41 PM

I'm certain to log on at least every 15 minutes on 18 December. Santa can stay home. All I want is OFF!!

sinbad
Posted By: DaidalosTeam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 12:27 PM

Update:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500&sid=591fb9e7ca8774d46118aff68a8e2580
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 12:43 PM

Hehe Flyxwire, I see you are all over these projects.

Look like your patience and perseverance are about to pay off, which once again proves the old saying of "keep trying". \:\)
Posted By: Sinbad 2

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 03:26 PM

Track IR and 6DOF support will really make a difference. Since MCFS3 already has it, it is expected in OFF and any sim released without it will be obsolescent out of the box.

sinbad
Posted By: DaidalosTeam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 03:52 PM

I am not sure if the developer of this new WW1 sim comes here and reads our comments and seeks feedback, but fPLEASE CONSIDER REWORKING SOME TEXTURES (if they are still WIP)! There is no use of having higher polygon models when you guys can't get some basic things right.

JUST LIKE THE BULLET HOLE TEXTURES. What was the skinner thinking when he made them so perfectly round??? ALL OF THEM??? A bullet entering a fuselage from the plane's 6 o'clock would definitely inflict a much different pattern.

I do hope you listen to our constructive criticism because this is simply WRONG:

Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 04:59 PM

Wauw, another bunch of amazing renders, thanks a lot guys! - I love the disabled German tank, with the very realistic damage of just fire marks and a track that has come off. Exactly the damage one would expect from an attack with puny airborne bombs.

Martin, you talk about constructive criticism, but I think that your criticism is not a good example. All your words in CAPITAL letters amount to SHOUTING, your personal attack is over the top ("you guys can't get some basic things right") and you don't even say one appreciative word. Don't know how you usually talk to people, but the way you do it here is not at all agreeable.

As for the question about bullet holes and whether they should be round or not. Well, the Il-2 engine allows for "general" damage textures to be applied progressively during a dogfight, not specialised textures for every bullet hole in an exact place.

Since we don't have an exact graphical rendering of what goes on in the physics engine, there has to be some general rendering of whatever damage might be suffered by a plane, it can't be too specific. Otherwise we'd have players always complaining about how the planes are always damaged in the exact same, highly memorable way.

So, the same bullet-hole textures have to cater for both high-deflection shots and rear-quarter shots. The Il-2 DM engine accounts for hits, but not their angle, AFAIK. You could say that it will be more probable with hits from the rear than from the side, but if we get elongated bullet holes from a side shot that might look more weird than round holes from a rear shot?

It is a question of understanding what can be done with the sim engine, rather than a question of comparing what you see here with real-world reality.

Also, the real-life holes might actually be more round than anything else. A grazing bullet would push in the canvas until it goes so deep that it effectuates a sudden penetration. That might just make for a rounded hole, more than a long gash.

In any case, the same damage texture has to cover all possibilities of hits from all angles, and furthermore can't be too specific. That's something you have to remember, it is a limitation of the Il-2 engine (we'll hopefully see something better in the BoB engine). Don't forget, if you don't like that limitation, that it is imposed by computer power, making all this work together is a question of juggling priorities: would you rather like perfect damage-textures or a refined flight model or good AI? - you have to weigh it all together.

I think the bullet holes are a fine compromise and are beautifully done, as all the textures we have seen so far.

When it comes to the rest of the damage model on that plane, I can just say WAUW. The texture even shows the rippling canvas, no longer taut, next to the upper-wing damage. Great job!
Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 05:47 PM

That is some of the sweetest damage modeling I've ever seen! Martin, it looks perfectly acceptable to me! \:D
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 05:48 PM

Actually I have to disagree with you Freycinet. Talking about limitations from your part, or angle of attack from Martin is irrelevant. Wood or canavas does not leave perfecty drawn circles when hit by a bullet. This is not a compromise or so, with all due respect, its simply bad. Just check any random damage skin made for FB so far and you will see what Im talking about. Metal is more likely having a roundy (but not a perfect circle for Christ sake \:\) ) hit mark, wood and canavas wont. Not to mention they made the bulletholes a bit bumping outwards, which makes it look like some chunk of butter been shot.
You can also check any random first person shooter. Go and have a shot into a wooden door. It will be far, far from a circle. Or just go shot a piece of wood yourself, you will see \:\)
Posted By: LukeFF

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 07:32 PM

Gotta agree with Jutocsa and Martin on this. While the ripped and torn canvas looks good, the bullet hole textures do need reworking. But hey, that's part of the reason why the devs post screenshots. \:\)
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 07:45 PM

New offering from Russia.

Screw the Flight Model, let's make a bullet hole simulator!

Because THAT is what we'll be looking at!

Spleeee!
Posted By: DaidalosTeam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 07:57 PM

Just hush Tolwyn. Nobody is saying we are not thankful for a new WW1 sim. We are directly commenting their development update they just posted. I am not gonna lick anyone's behind when I see something wrong (just like these acne looking holes). I can't judge and never will judge FM (since I have no clue about that), but when I see a wrong texture, I will open my mouth. It doesn't take much to fix simple things like this in the sim. I wish someone had yelled at Oleg's Bf 109 or Mig-3 DM texturer 4 years ago... :rolleyes:
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 10:42 PM

I definitely have nothing against criticism of the developers, but let's try to keep it good-natured and pleasant and positive. I agree that the bulging-out shouldn't be there!
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 10:46 PM

Oh, and by the way, =FB=LOFT wrote that:

"A couple of comments. Our western users asked us to demonstrate not only damage physics but also textures. So here goes. Last 4 shots are Fokker cockpit. All pits are full 3d so that later we could add 6dof TrackIR support. With six degrees of freedom one could both turn and shift his/her head from side to side, back, forth, up and down. In next DevUp, we will present a pit with textures, and also give some details on the changes we have made so far to AI, maps, etc. Some people also ask us about in-game shots. While these are rather easy to post, but we guess we should better wait until new terrain is ready. So, instead of posting nothing at all, we feel it may be interesting for you guys to watch our progress. We will continue posting some parts of our work every week, but don't expect to recieve everything in one chunk, or you might get disinterested :p "

- Great to see those renders of the cockpit and to hear they'll be fully 6DOF compatible!!! - They look fabulous, and I think Naturalpoint should send a few bucks to the Gennadich team, 'cos they just sold another TIR4 for you!
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 10:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tolwyn:
New offering from Russia.

Screw the Flight Model, let's make a bullet hole simulator!

Because THAT is what we'll be looking at!

Spleeee!
It takes the same amount of working hour (minute actually) to make a decent looking bullet hole, as a round thing. So...I dont really understand your rant but you surely have the reason for it. I, as a graphic artist, like nice things. If you think something should be uglier than in FB, thats your right :p \:\)
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 11:20 PM

Agree on the wrong bulletholes, and we will make em with more ripped shape. But actually we are tryin to figure out how much time it will take to make a model, with different types of different stuff, so dont be shy to post any criticism, cause its aint to late to change anything:)

btw: maybe someone have a good examples of such a wooden costruction bullet penetration from different angles?
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/09/05 11:45 PM

well, it should definitely be different for wood and canvas, so better find out what goes where... - Let's see if we can't dig up period photos!
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/10/05 12:25 AM

I don't know what weapons you guys are shooting and what you're shooting them at but I've seen round holes ALWAYS---unless the shot strikes the target at an oblique angle \:D . I have shot thousands and thousands of rounds of pistol and high power rifle at paper, cardboard and wood targets and they make round holes when striking the target when within 30 degrees of being perpendicular to the target face.

You will start to see consistant tearing of the target when the strike angle is less than 30 degrees of being parallel to the face of the target.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/10/05 01:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
so dont be shy to post any criticism, cause its aint to late to change anything:)
Amen to that \:\)
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/10/05 01:17 PM

Hi Guderian, great to see you here too!

(I didn't see this WWI project coming at all......been too target fixated I guess) ;\)

Hey guys, I think a bit more bullet hole elongation would be nice, to simulate entry from a grazing 6-o'clock position (which is a good angle to do fixed damage texturing from).

Also, canvas tearing would occur in the direction of the slipstream (so any elongation would generally occur from "front to back").

At present the DH4's bullet holes look a bit "pimpled", or puckered outward towards our viewpoint, because of the highlight shading on the upper half of the impact area (might want to dispense with that effect).

Here's some battle damage I textured for FS-WWI a few years ago for the mod's Pfalz D.III (rendered in 2D only):

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WQAAAOscq...406191393207922[/img]

Here's some photos of actual battle damage and repairs (finding pics of real damage is hard to come by.........hmmmm ;\) ):

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UACJAvAY!...419450149957903[/img]

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UgDvAuMZn...419503677228598[/img]

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0VgCFAuEbG...419505259690210[/img]

There's no reason one can't interject an opinion about a WIP, especially so since VikS and his Team are working so hard to try and get things correct, right out of the box for us. \:\)
Posted By: tmac

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/11/05 11:46 AM




tmac
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/16/05 10:22 AM

The latest Great War entry to emerge from the GT studios, the nimble Nieuport 17:





Check out the latest update, and the design team's future plans here:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/16/05 10:31 AM

oh man, that sound really makes it come alive!
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/16/05 12:27 PM

I can't stand this-when the hell is this sim supposed to be ready?

Hurry up already!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/16/05 12:36 PM

I like the looks of this but we are seeing far too much tanks and far too little infantry and horses.

I know it's hard to do infantry in a game, but some of these tanks were used on an extremely small scale (e.g. only around 20 A7Vs were built). Il-2 can do little men on the ground, even if it's just been truckdrivers and AA crews in the world war two version.
Posted By: Fenrir

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/16/05 12:37 PM

Patience is the virtue of Saints old boy...

...whoops, my Halo's slipping...!
Posted By: msalama

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/16/05 01:59 PM



A must buy, this one. Be sure.
Posted By: Ivan Putski

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/16/05 08:44 PM

looks like it`s coming along nicely. \:\)
Posted By: Dantes

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/17/05 11:04 AM

I love the progress pics. While I love the Fokker sound, am I the only one finding it strange this is supposed to be coming from a rotary?

Can't wait till they open the official site.

S!
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/17/05 12:04 PM

Kev,

Get on the GT forum!

Btw, have sent VikS some MP3s of the Le Rhone and Gnome engine sounds. ;\)
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/17/05 01:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by guderian ente:
I like the looks of this but we are seeing far too much tanks and far too little infantry and horses.

I know it's hard to do infantry in a game, but some of these tanks were used on an extremely small scale (e.g. only around 20 A7Vs were built). Il-2 can do little men on the ground, even if it's just been truckdrivers and AA crews in the world war two version.
Detailed ground forces including visible infantry are a must for any future WW1 sim. More significant than the shape of the bullet holes in the canvas for instance......
Posted By: Dantes

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/17/05 05:00 PM

Quote:
Kev,

Get on the GT forum!
Ah, I see that you've got your finger on the button over there...or is that blip? ;\)

Nice to see the devs are eager for input. I do hope they contact Memorial Flight.

S!
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/17/05 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dantes:
Ah, I see that you've got your finger on the button over there...or is that blip? ;\)
Keeping her firing on all cylinders Kev.

(do you have a new e-mail addy)
Posted By: Snacky

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/17/05 11:08 PM

Speed of Smell? what the hell. \:\)
Posted By: Dantes

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/18/05 01:16 AM

Dave, e-mail sent.
Posted By: Tchaika.

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/19/05 11:18 AM

Posted By: Hawkman

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/19/05 06:24 PM

Oh boy - this is looking good!!

A more than worthy successor to the venerable 'Red Baron 3D'.

I can't wait!!
Posted By: Stonewall Jackson

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/19/05 06:38 PM

I spent countless hours playing "Red Baron" on my Amiga 3000 - and I think this is a SIM I can't wait to buy !
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/21/05 01:26 PM

In case the developers still stop by-----

I recently picked up a copy of "The Illustrated Directory of Fighters" by Mike Spick printed 2002.

The book lists the performance figures for all of the proposed aircraft to include:

horsepower
empty wt.
takeoff wt.
wing area
wing loading
power to weight ratio
maximum speed at specified altitude
time to climb
service ceiling

I would assume that those brainy computer dudes could do some pretty slick computatin' and put together a fairly representative "flight model" from these numbers.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: II./JG1_Pritzl

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/21/05 02:03 PM

Looking at the DH-4 model something important struck me: if this sim uses the same uber AI gunnery model for rear gunners, we're in deep doo-doo. Unlike WWII crates, you can't make slashing attacks on the bombers - they are almost as fast as the fighters and the puny MG's will take some time to down them so saddling up is unavoidable.
Posted By: Mahoney

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/21/05 02:26 PM

Saddling up to 2 seaters was suicidal in WWI; just about all the aces agreed attacking 2 seaters was really more dangerous than dogfighting other scouts, because mobile rear-facing guns made them so lethal. Planes like the FE2b and Bristol Fighter were dangerous enemies.

My recollection is that a standard tactic was to swoop up underneath a 2 seater. That or stalk them and take them unawares.
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/21/05 06:12 PM

Just found out that the Over Flanders Fields mod has little people on the ground.

Take a look at this and this !
Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/21/05 06:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mahoney:
Saddling up to 2 seaters was suicidal in WWI; just about all the aces agreed attacking 2 seaters was really more dangerous than dogfighting other scouts, because mobile rear-facing guns made them so lethal. Planes like the FE2b and Bristol Fighter were dangerous enemies.

My recollection is that a standard tactic was to swoop up underneath a 2 seater. That or stalk them and take them unawares.
Attacking 2 seaters was, indeed, dangerous. The Red Baron was severly wounded attacking one. It's arguable that his pain and headaches he sufferred from that injury led to his poor decision making that got him killed.

Luftberry was killed by a 2 seater. While the D7 was considered the best fighter of the war it was one of the British 2 seaters (the name escapes me at the moment) that was used for several years after the war.

UPDATE: It was the Bristol F2 mentioned earlier that was kept in production until 1932.

I thank my RB3D experience in dealing with 2 seaters for my ability to attack bombers in IL2 without sweating gunners that much. It's been my experience in several servers flying the Me110 or SBD that sniper rear gunner AI aren't needed as 99% of pilots will idiotically park on your 6 about 100 meters back and 10 meters and let you shoot them to your heart's content.

Oh, and Pritzl, it's a fallacy to think WWI couldn't use energy tactics and slashing attacks. Just read up on Rickenbacher's use of the Vrille and Cuban Eight to attack multiple 2 seaters. He used to demonstrate to fellow squadron members over his aerodrome going after recons.

He once took on 7 by himself, blowing 2 of them up on the first pass and using classic BnZ tactics to down one more and chase off the rest. While the guns aren't as powerful the speeds are slower so more shots can be placed. Hit meat, metal or fuel and you could bring one down in a relatively quick amount of time.
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/21/05 07:57 PM

Production of the F.2B continued until 1920. It was retired from RAF service in 1932.

The Cuban Eight name was originated by Len Povey, an American who commanded the Cuban AF. He performed it the Miami air races in 1936.
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/21/05 09:29 PM

Salute

This proposed Sim MUST have human figures in it.

At the speeds these planes are travelling at, quite often 60 mph or lower, (stalling speeds were around 45 mph) there must be humans in the game to give it the realistic feel it needs.

These should include the following:

-Aircraft maintenance personnel, attached to parked aircraft and in working poses.

-Troops manning weapons, in the form of MG Gunners, (both AAA and regular) Artillery gunners, and drivers for vehicles.

-Stationary soldiers, preferably a pair or Squad, in crouching position.

-Ideally the game should include moving soldiers, preferably a pair or a Squad. This is more difficult but would pay big dividends in a realistic feel.

All of these should react to being strafed by aircraft or hit by AI MG's or Artillery by falling to prone position. They can dissapear after a while if nessesary. AAA Gunners should move with their weapon as it tracks.

Only having vehicles in the Sim is a huge mistake and completely ahistorical.

For example, the German tank shown in the screenshots, although historically accurate, was produced in TINY numbers. Less than 30 if memory serves. Even the Allied tanks, were numerically not as important as ground troops or artillery, and were only seen in areas where offensives were happening.

I can understand not including horses, they are difficult to model, and by 1917, the starting period for the game, they were being replaced by vehicles.

Perhaps some stationary horses, cows or sheep would work.

But to miss out on humans would be a big mistake.

Hopefully the designers already understand this and are working on these elements. \:\)
Posted By: SeaWulfe

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/21/05 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by *Buzzsaw*:
At the speeds these planes are travelling at, quite often 60 mph or lower, (stalling speeds were around 45 mph) there must be humans in the game to give it the realistic feel it needs.
Above 100MPH for the scouts being modelled as player controllable. 115 MPH for Camel, 103MPH for Dr1, Fokker D7 127MPH, etc. Give or take about 5 to 10MPH depending on sources.
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/21/05 09:44 PM

Salute Seawulfe

The speeds you are quoting are MAXIMUM speeds.

How often are you at maximum speed for the aircraft in IL-2????

The stalling speed for the Camel was 45 mph, for the DR-1, even lower.

A low speed turnfight would see aircraft maneuvering at 60-70 mph.
Posted By: SeaWulfe

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/21/05 10:04 PM

Well, top speed in level flight, but these planes travelled pretty close to their top speed due to lack of throttles on many (except SPADs AFAIK).
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/22/05 04:40 AM

Salute

The only engines with no throttles were the Rotaries. All the inlines had throttles, which includes the Albatroses, the Fokker DVII's, SE-5's, Spads, and most of the two seaters.

These aircraft bled speed pretty quickly in turns too, with the small engines, and thus they would not be travelling at max. speed, unless they were dropping alt.
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/22/05 12:29 PM

Quote:

These should include the following:

-Aircraft maintenance personnel, attached to parked aircraft and in working poses.

-Troops manning weapons, in the form of MG Gunners, (both AAA and regular) Artillery gunners, and drivers for vehicles.

-Stationary soldiers, preferably a pair or Squad, in crouching position.

-Ideally the game should include moving soldiers, preferably a pair or a Squad. This is more difficult but would pay big dividends in a realistic feel.
Agreed, and the same goes for Oleg's BoB or any other new sim in development. The days of empty, machine-inhabited sim worlds ought to be over by now.

Yes, it's a performance issue but it matters umpteen times more than getting the stall speed of the [insert aircraft] 99 instead of 98 percent correct.

To the above list of essentials I would also add horse-drawn carriages (both civilian and military) and troops marching in column.
Posted By: toms

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/22/05 05:24 PM

it´s thursday - here we go:

and you complain about the gunsight in the FW-190? ;\)







Posted By: II./JG1_Pritzl

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/22/05 06:03 PM

Thanks Mahoney and Sensei. I guess my complete ignorance of WWI is showing - last WWI sim I played was a 2D simulator flown from external views only! \:D
Posted By: RocketDog

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/22/05 06:21 PM

Gorgeous cockpit for the Dr I !

Cheers,

RocketDog.
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/22/05 07:18 PM

I wonder if you'll be able to pick up the pistol and use it?
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/22/05 08:59 PM

Nice pit, and huge bonus points for the pistol. Of course we should be able to use it in the air! It will be the ultimate sim/FPS crossover.

Surprised to see they had telescopic sights. I thought they just used the iron ones on the guns.
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/22/05 09:56 PM

There is a pic of an ALbatros Dva (I believe) with a reflector gun site installed. It was a prototype at the time ....I think.
Posted By: Flatlander

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/22/05 11:03 PM

OK, I'm hooked.

~Flatlander
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 12:17 AM

I'm pretty sure (like in positive!)that's a flare gun.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: BFawlty

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 01:08 AM

I'm liking this baby.

BF
Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 01:52 AM

Indeed that is a flare gun. \:\)
Posted By: Dantes

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 02:13 AM

Oh those update shots are looking sweet. Happy to see they are going for the weathered look in the textures.

The 3D detail on the DR1 stick blows me away.

The flares will be an interesting touch if the aerodrome reacts and puts the gas cans out. Flame on!

S!
Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 02:46 AM

I'm lovin those Maxim machine guns! \:D
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 09:42 AM

Uhhh, it will be annoying to fly with such a strange cardboard tube in front of you... Did all Dr.I's really have those telescopic sights, or whatever it is?

I thought we'd have just a ring and bead sight, to be used when leaning left or right over one of the machine guns (as we do in the 109 when we lean to center the gunsight).

I think this is an area where an absolutely faithful rendering of the sighting method could probably clash with what is practicable and do-able in a flightsim.

Great-looking cockpit btw! And a very Merry Christmas to the Gennadich Team: I look forward to more exciting updates in the new year, from the backlog of developments you haven't told us about yet!
Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 10:02 AM

Most of the Dr.1's had the sight removed when in use in combat. Pilots found them very dangerous when crash landing and very obstructive. In fact, the Dr.1 had no other center site! So you had to either use the ones at the end of the Maxim barrels or make reference as to where the bullets went in correlation with the cross bracing wires. \:\)

I hope we will have the site as a loadout option and can remove it if needed...
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 11:10 AM

I hope they model as many tubular optical sights as possible....the Aldis, the Chretien, and the Oigee.......and I'll use them! \:D

Hope the rear-view mirror works too! ;\)
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 01:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketDog:
Gorgeous cockpit for the Dr I !

Cheers,

RocketDog.
The attention to detail brings the model to life but the textures could do with being a bit sharper. I don't fancy staring at the blurry textures on that gun for ages for instance.

It would be nice to be able to use the gun/flare pistol in flight, very immersive. I'm not sure what it would have been used for though, marking targets for artillery maybe?

The dev's seem to be cracking on with the 3D stuff, I'm enjoying these weekly updates. Got to say that I'm now officially excited about this one \:D
Posted By: CAF

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 02:45 PM

It would be good if in the finished product you could actually use the flare gun to signal other members of your flight.


CAF
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 10:44 PM

The flare was used as both an air to air and air to ground signal device.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/23/05 10:53 PM

What blurry textures on the gun? Those are the best Maxim gun textures I've seen thus far in any WWI sim! \:D
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/24/05 05:41 AM

Use the flare gun to burn your plane if you soft land on the wrong side?
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/24/05 09:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ArgonV:
What blurry textures on the gun? Those are the best Maxim gun textures I've seen thus far in any WWI sim! \:D
Agreed Argon, this looks near perfect to me

Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/24/05 09:29 AM

I wonder if the bullets will animate when firing? \:D
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/24/05 02:15 PM

Merry Cristmas & Happy New Year everyone!

PS:
- the telescopic gunsights will be optional (kind of loadout option or so);
- cant say nothig about flare gun to be able to grab and shoot:) it can be too complicated to do, cause such things as: shoot in the your own plane (damage from flare hits? \:\) ) and... hmm maybe some kind of incidents by shootin yourself? \:D and so on and so on.
- as about runnin ammunition belt animation - now we are tryin out some things with animation with IL2 engine.
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/24/05 02:22 PM

Merry Christmas to you too. VikS, are those cockpit textures final btw or wips ? They look fine so far, but a bit too cartoonish and clean. Keep in mind, what made Star Wars so real was that everything was weathered, worn and dirty, not fresh out of factory \:\) And frankly even if all the others will flame me to death I say, the leather parts need more work.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/24/05 03:36 PM

Quote:
VikS, are those cockpit textures final btw or wips ? They look fine so far, but a bit too cartoonish and clean. Keep in mind, what made Star Wars so real was that everything was weathered, worn and dirty, not fresh out of factory \:\) And frankly even if all the others will flame me to death I say, the leather parts need more work. [/QB]
Everything is WIP at the moment;)
so keep post any thoughts about what we do - im checkin everything (at least im tryin \:\) )
Posted By: Boandlgramer

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/24/05 04:07 PM

very nice, viks, very nice.
glad someone is working on a ww1 sim, beside the OFF guys.
Posted By: Heini von Seppel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/24/05 04:40 PM

Just a minor thought, no criticism:
Several envious german pilots in 1918 remarked that there were brass parts in allied cockpits and that such nice metals no longer existed in german pits later in the war.

So maybe its more appropiate for late german machines to use just white metal for switches etc.

Don't take that wrong, the cockpit as now is delightful in my opinion and I can hardly wait for this project to see the shops.
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/24/05 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EAF92_Brigstock:
Quote:
Originally posted by ArgonV:
What blurry textures on the gun? Those are the best Maxim gun textures I've seen thus far in any WWI sim! \:D
Agreed Argon, this looks near perfect to me

I mean the texures on the pistol/flare gun on the right and the leather round the cockpit as well as the vertical spars. close to, where your going to spend most of your time, it looks blurry. I'm just comparing the ones in the screenie to the texures I've seen used in current games. They could be better. I do realise this is the IL2 engine so maybe things can only be pushed so far, although the current IL2 cockpits use higher res textures than some of these. I just don't want this product to look old on release, nice screenies mean more sales.

I hope they shift the telescope sight as well. Its going to be next to useless in a simulation and just get on peoples tits.
Posted By: DaidalosTeam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/25/05 01:01 AM

Ooooooooh Jutocsa, you hypocrat. \:D Why don't you show one of your leather seat texture you have made recently? \:\) I think it's top notch! I don't want to post it without your permission.
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/25/05 08:09 PM

And please dont \:\) It would be OT here, plus the time is not appropriate, maybe it never will be :p
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/25/05 10:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jutocsa:
what made Star Wars so real
:p


Quote:
Originally posted by Jutocsa:
was that everything was weathered, worn and dirty, not fresh out of factory \:\) And frankly even if all the others will flame me to death I say, the leather parts need more work.
Hmmm, how long did a WWI fighter plane "live" and fly? - Most often a question of weeks or maybe a few months, I guess. Either they went obsolete in half a year, but most often they were destroyed much earlier, I'd say.

Mud spattering yes, certainly, but I don't know about wear and tear of long use...

Viks, great to hear about the optional telescope!
Posted By: PatWilson

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/26/05 02:22 AM

Flying off of dirt fields they could get pretty rough looking pretty quickly. The rotaries in particular, spewing castor oil, got real nasty looking around the engine area. Good picture of a Fokker rotary (D.II?) showed a good section of paint and dope peeled away from the cowling and behind. Other photos show planes that appear to be in pretty good shape.

British aircraft started off anywhere from very dark green to chocolate brown, and weathered unevenly to reddish brown to olive. It all depended on the composition of the PC 10 that was used.

For myself I like a bit of a worn look.
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/26/05 08:26 AM

I dont know for how long a plane was in use generally (but oh well, you dont know it either :p ), still Im pretty sure they did not look like this. What you say could be true for all WW2 planes too, still every cockpit is weathered in Il-2, I guess for a reason. And they look nice that way.
Posted By: J18_Weed

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/26/05 05:32 PM

The seat looks fine just as it is....who in the world is going to be looking at the seat anyway....nit pick it to death and its not even out yet..
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/26/05 06:29 PM

Funny you all call it nitpicking, but luckily VikS agreed so far and thats what matters :p
Not to mention I prefer pointing out errors before release not whining afterwards
Posted By: DaidalosTeam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/26/05 08:26 PM

Yep, better to say it now then never. \:\) I am very picky about my seat too. \:D You should really show your seat Viktor.
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/26/05 10:04 PM

The bottom line is that screenie shows a cockpit that isn't as good texture wise as the current IL2 cockpits. If its released as is I could live with it, but with the capabilities of current ( and next years) video cards I just expected better.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/26/05 10:31 PM

- what is less good?

We shouldn't forget that this sim will be made with the Il-2FB engine. Also, if they want to implement true 6DOF we can't have the fancy fake-3D textures that we have in some of the never FB-AEP-cockpits.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/26/05 10:33 PM

BTW, I'm just thinking: switching from in-cockpit view to exteriour views is going to be more awkward here than with Il-2, with no pilot in the 'pit in the in-cockpit view. I really like the animated arms and legs in flight sims like Condor (in the in-cockpit view).
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/26/05 10:42 PM

Naturally there cant be baking. But thats totally irrelevant to the textures present in tha pit. Also dont forget they are using larger textures than in FB and some of the textures look worse than in FB. Also dont forget its a very simple pit, that means fewer things to map, thus it allows far larger texture space for everything. Plus...they said themselves its a wip, still everyone keep saying its the best they have seen \:D
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/26/05 11:28 PM

Best WWI 'pit we've seen, of course!

- The BoB Spitfire still takes the prize...
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 07:36 AM

For comparsion, here are some cockpit pics from Third Wire's world war one sim (also WIP):

Fokker D.VII pit

SPAD pit
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 08:21 AM

password required, other links?
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 08:42 AM

Try this:

Fokker

SPAD
Posted By: Manuc

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 08:43 AM

For me it is more important to get a good (= realistic) flight and damage model than a more ore less used looking texture.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by guderian ente:
Try this:

Fokker

SPAD
Thx!

The Spad looks very nice, the Fokker not so, IMHO. It has pretty rough-looking textures and a somewhat jarring colour choice. I personally think the Gennadich views of the Dr.I look a bit more polished, but of course with room for improvements.

(Fancy radar for the Fokker in the upper right-hand corner, btw! \:\) )
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Martin:
Yep, better to say it now then never. \:\) I am very picky about my seat too. \:D You should really show your seat Viktor.
LOL!
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Manuc:
For me it is more important to get a good (= realistic) flight and damage model than a more ore less used looking texture.
I think its getting to the stage where people accept that gfx in sims are an important part of immersion.

Current games have large environments with textures and lighting that make a scene look close to photo real. The smoke and haze effects in COD2 added greatly to the experience, I want to see these sort of effects applied to my flight sims, i'm tired of the sterile environments that current flight sims have. I want to feel that I'm flying in a living world.

In this COD2 shot look at the textures on the glove, fingers and the gun. I want to see this sort of stuff in my flightsims. Modern gfx cards can process these sort of high res textures with hardly any additional CPU load.



TBH I'm happy wth the level of flight modelling in IL2, any more detail would be wasted on me and I suspect 99% of people who buy simulations. If the FM convinces me I'm flying and the aircraft perform reasonably close to how they should from old reports I'm happy. I'd rather dev time be spent on improving immersive elements, campaigns and yes gfx (especially terrain and cockpit gfx) than on small technical details.
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 12:22 PM

Yup, the textures on that Ppsh are very nice. I hope to see something like that in flight sims soon (compare with the fairly poor metal and wood textures in the cockpit pics above).
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 01:27 PM

Your looking at shaders and things like bump mapping on that gun. Flight Sims are way behind in this area. Another thing is that a WWI cockpit is much more organic than a metal WWII. Pit. It is tough to do leather and wood, with the way it is done in il2 (2d texture). You rely on the artist to make the material look real. With the proper use of shaders and bump mapping you get realistic textures with less load for the artist but someonehas to create the shaders. Ofcourse this makes it more of a resource hog but in my opinion flight sims generally skip on this part citing poor performance from rendering all that stuff. It needs to get better if you want to attrack players who at first only care about the way it looks and the explosions. Lure them in with great graphics then make them appreciate the FM.
Posted By: II./JG1_Pritzl

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 01:29 PM

Any chance we can have a higher seat position in those planes? I'm not talking towering above the pit, but high enough that we don't feel like we're in babies in a crib. Yes, I know visibility wasn't so good on these planes anyway. but then again, we can't lean for a better view in IL-2 yet. (or can we...?)
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by killdevil:
Your looking at shaders and things like bump mapping on that gun. Flight Sims are way behind in this area. Another thing is that a WWI cockpit is much more organic than a metal WWII. Pit. It is tough to do leather and wood, with the way it is done in il2 (2d texture). You rely on the artist to make the material look real. With the proper use of shaders and bump mapping you get realistic textures with less load for the artist but someonehas to create the shaders. Ofcourse this makes it more of a resource hog but in my opinion flight sims generally skip on this part citing poor performance from rendering all that stuff. It needs to get better if you want to attrack players who at first only care about the way it looks and the explosions. Lure them in with great graphics then make them appreciate the FM.
Actually you are looking at a nice texture, a specular map and a bump/normal map on that ppsh. That doesnt mean less workload on the artist at all, since usually both spec and bump maps are made from the layered template of the main texture. Naturally these arent used in Il-2 engine, so all these details (bumps, highlights) have to be done on the main texture. Its not any harder than making them separate, naturally the result wont be as nice. Not to mention the higher poly count (CoD2 guns are around 3500 poly - the same as the older Il-2 pits) But still..you can add a lot more detail to the cockpit textures above.
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 01:49 PM

Quote:

It is tough to do leather and wood, with the way it is done in Il2 (2d texture). You rely on the artist to make the material look real. With the proper use of shaders and bump mapping you get realistic textures with less load for the artist...
Ok, that makes sense and it also explains why the quality of the pits in Il-2 varies so much.

Quote:

Any chance we can have a higher seat position in those planes? I'm not talking towering above the pit, but high enough that we don't feel like we're in babies in a crib.
Yes, that's a perennial problem in flight sims. The standard explanation is that most simmers want a forward view that also shows the instruments, but with 3D pits I think we should get the option for a higher and (according to every real pilots I've seen comment on it) more realistic view.

It matters a lot for deflection shooting, and therefore influences how we play the game (like the difficulty of snapshooting in Full Real mode and how that affects planes like the FW-190 and P-47).
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 02:41 PM

It is much easier to have someones graphics card do the lighting and create the depth in the textures as oppossed to having the 2d artist fake it. A very simple texture can be made to look good with good normals and bump maps. Much easier to create these than fake it in my opinion.
Posted By: SeaWulfe

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 02:54 PM

Pretty graphics put more load on the CPU. All graphics are passed by the CPU to the GPU. This takes up more cycles. These cycles that would be used for flight modelling, damage modelling, or ballistics modelling. All of these put high demand on the CPU.

That's why most of the games with great eye candy have limited physics modelling.

With flight sims there's a trade off, in the next few years that trade off may become very little, but right now it's still fairly significant.
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 04:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by killdevil:
It is much easier to have someones graphics card do the lighting and create the depth in the textures as oppossed to having the 2d artist fake it. A very simple texture can be made to look good with good normals and bump maps. Much easier to create these than fake it in my opinion.
Thing is, your craphic card does the lighning only if you do the proper textures for it. Its the 2D artists job in both cases. Needs the same thinking in most cases, I mean you have to know which parts should have bump, which parts need highlights. No card will calculate that for you, not to mention that would need zillion polygons to make it real. So you have to tell the card with a texture where to do it. Or you fake it onto the diffuse map. Same story, personally i find the first approach a lot more fun, naturally the latter gives nicer result.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 05:14 PM

Moggy Il-2 was amazing when other sims were less than amazing, he had Gouraud shading etc in there years ago when it was fairly cutting edge. That solution to the forests and hardware TnL. He's already given us SM3.0 I think but he's had to work it into the code. Brave lad \:\)

Oleg knows about shaders don't worry mate it'll all be in there and btw Oleg please show us a screenshot from an early build sometime soon we're gagging for it mate \:\)

Ming
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 06:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jutocsa:
Quote:
Originally posted by killdevil:
It is much easier to have someones graphics card do the lighting and create the depth in the textures as oppossed to having the 2d artist fake it. A very simple texture can be made to look good with good normals and bump maps. Much easier to create these than fake it in my opinion.
Thing is, your craphic card does the lighning only if you do the proper textures for it. Its the 2D artists job in both cases. Needs the same thinking in most cases, I mean you have to know which parts should have bump, which parts need highlights. No card will calculate that for you, not to mention that would need zillion polygons to make it real. So you have to tell the card with a texture where to do it. Or you fake it onto the diffuse map. Same story, personally i find the first approach a lot more fun, naturally the latter gives nicer result.
I've seen your work mate and you are a true artist. \:\) It is a tough pill for the pure artist ,I know but honestly digital art for games is starting to morph. Now you have folks like me producing good work when I am not an artist. Graphics for games are differnt than true painting in my opinion (apples and oranges). Much of the overall product can be produced with the shader these days (diffuse and specular lighting, shades, reflection, surface texture etc). Take rendermonkey for example. I can take a generic shader and just add my normal, bump etc to the model and I'm off to the races. It is only more work in that you have more at your disposal as an artist. Downside is that you have to learn how to get the most from the shaders and that takes time. To create the same result with just 2d textures in some cases would be impossible. You can't simulate the reflection of surrounding light on a piece of metal or glass with a 2d texture. Well you could, but a shader makes the reflection dynamic.
Posted By: Cat

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 06:55 PM

In an aircraft like the Dr I one would think that the seat could be modeled a bit higher. There aren't *any* instruments, really, from the screenshots (I've never seen a real Dr I cockpit). That's pretty minimal, eh?

Personally, I'm a Nieuport 17 gal, myself. One Lewis .303 over the top wing-or didn't some have one single Vickers on the fuselage? With the Lewis, you better be careful changing drums lest you fall out! Reckon they'll model the actual 110 hp or so Gnome and LeRhone rotaries, that had like no throttle and you have to blip 'em on and off to slow down for landing \:D ?? I've always read that the N11 and 17 could turn witjin their own length or something equallyamazing, as long as you didn't rip the top wing off.

For the AEF pilots of 1917, a Nieuport 22 (?) would be needed, wouldn't it? That and the Spad 13?

Miao, Cat
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 07:02 PM

Oh well, I guess you are right Killdevil. But luckily there will always be a need for someone who paints the diffuse map. Hmm..unless you use procedural maps only \:D
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 10:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ming_EAF19:
Moggy Il-2 was amazing when other sims were less than amazing, he had Gouraud shading etc in there years ago when it was fairly cutting edge. That solution to the forests and hardware TnL. He's already given us SM3.0 I think but he's had to work it into the code. Brave lad \:\)

Oleg knows about shaders don't worry mate it'll all be in there and btw Oleg please show us a screenshot from an early build sometime soon we're gagging for it mate \:\)

Ming
Agreed, I can't wait for the first in engine BOB screens, hopefully it'll be as big a step forward as Il2 was originally.

Maybe its time for BOB beta leak
Posted By: Dart

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 10:26 PM

Let's all recall that when IL-2 was coded, things like 6DOF weren't around - therefore, using a 2D cockpit panel made sense for optimization.

Having a fully 3D cockpit that would never be looked at would be wasteful.

We also know that the IL-2 engine allows for such things - 6DOF is possible, but rejected as the 1C:Maddox team didn't want to re-do all of the cockpits.

Likewise, opening cockpits, adjustable seats, etc. weren't part of the IL-2 code, and only made an appearance in PF, and only with new aircraft.

It's not that 3D cockpits aren't possible, just that they weren't done at the time.

Would I like to see 6DOF and adjustable seat heights? Yepper, I sure would!

Of course, we'll all have to get ready for the "TIR is cheating because it gives people with the hardware an unfair edge."

But we've already gotten used to it, so I guess it's no big deal.

I came to IL-2 because RB3D had outlived it's limitations; WWI is still my favorite era of aviation, and I'll be one of the first ot embrace a nice Sopwith Pup or DH-2...

Here's a question: are they going to implement high altitude effects on the pilot? WWI scout pilots went on up to 10,000 feet largely without hesistation - will we get some blackouts for going to high, or maybe some blurring of the screen to simulate the effects of not enough oxygen?
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/27/05 11:25 PM

Dart, that's not the 2d we are talking about. Look at the pic of the gun above that was not accomplished with just a 2d texture. The old way is to paint effects like scratches on in your 2d map.
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/28/05 07:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cat:

For the AEF pilots of 1917, a Nieuport 22 (?) would be needed, wouldn't it? That and the Spad 13?

Miao, Cat
Nieuports for Cat.

http://mars.ark.com/~mdf/Nprofiles.html
Posted By: pauldun170

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/28/05 03:18 PM

Lose the crosshairs....

Makes things interesting
Posted By: PatWilson

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/28/05 05:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cat:
In an aircraft like the Dr I one would think that the seat could be modeled a bit higher. There aren't *any* instruments, really, from the screenshots (I've never seen a real Dr I cockpit). That's pretty minimal, eh?

Personally, I'm a Nieuport 17 gal, myself. One Lewis .303 over the top wing-or didn't some have one single Vickers on the fuselage? With the Lewis, you better be careful changing drums lest you fall out! Reckon they'll model the actual 110 hp or so Gnome and LeRhone rotaries, that had like no throttle and you have to blip 'em on and off to slow down for landing \:D ?? I've always read that the N11 and 17 could turn witjin their own length or something equallyamazing, as long as you didn't rip the top wing off.

For the AEF pilots of 1917, a Nieuport 22 (?) would be needed, wouldn't it? That and the Spad 13?

Miao, Cat
Nieuport 11s had the top wing Lewis gun. French N17s had a single deck mounted Vickers (no Lewis) while British N17s maintained the wing mounted Lewis (no Vickers). Some later Nieuport sesquiplanes (N24 and N27) could mount both deck and wing mounted guns but generally did not, sticking with a single gun.

The Nieuport that the AEF flew was the N28. Two Vickers in kind of an odd configuration, one on the deck offset left and the other on the left side of the fuselage.

It will be interesting to see how ambitious they get for the first release. It would not be an unreasonable design decision to start with the air war between Britain and Germany from mid 1917 - 1918. They could then then introduce the French front. After that the early years. From there you could go to the Austrian/Italian front or the Russian front. Or they could just model it all \:D .
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/29/05 03:20 AM

I don't give a rats behind what airplanes are available or what time frame it covers, just give me the GAME! Everything posted so far exceeds my wildest dreams \:D

Copterdrvr
Posted By: uberweng

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/29/05 08:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by copterdrvr:
I don't give a rats behind what airplanes are available or what time frame it covers, just give me the GAME! Everything posted so far exceeds my wildest dreams \:D

Copterdrvr
Nicely said Copterdrvr. I have been blown away by each new update and can't wait to play this game.

On the graphics front, that FPS screen shot is amazing but doesn't the flight sim have to dedicate more power to non-graphics related tasks like the more complex physics models? How much performance hit would this be expected to create?
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/29/05 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by copterdrvr:

I don't give a rats behind what airplanes are available or what time frame it covers, just give me the GAME! Everything posted so far exceeds my wildest dreams \:D

Copterdrvr
Absolutely Copterdrvr......getting it IS the important part!

(and doing nicely with that)
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/29/05 11:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by uberweng:
Quote:
Originally posted by copterdrvr:
I don't give a rats behind what airplanes are available or what time frame it covers, just give me the GAME! Everything posted so far exceeds my wildest dreams \:D

Copterdrvr
Nicely said Copterdrvr. I have been blown away by each new update and can't wait to play this game.

On the graphics front, that FPS screen shot is amazing but doesn't the flight sim have to dedicate more power to non-graphics related tasks like the more complex physics models? How much performance hit would this be expected to create?
Correct, FPS's and flight sims are different.

I posted the shot as an example of the level of detail and sort of textures and lighting that modern cards can handle and still give high framerates. They do this if games are coded to use their features, most (all?) current flightsims lag well behind current games using old code for gfx elements. I can't wait to see a new flight sim that's been built from he ground up to use these sorts of gfx features, I suspect there's only BOB on the horizon for that though.

I agree that shipping the game without bugs and on time is most important. At least we'll have a new flightsim product on the shelves, that's bit of a novelty at the moment unfortunately
Posted By: SaQSoN

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/29/05 02:31 PM

Quote:
but doesn't the flight sim have to dedicate more power to non-graphics related tasks
Flightsim also have to dedicate more power (then an FPS) to a grapichs _related_ calculations. It is obvious, if you can recall, how large visibility range is in any FPS. Max 500m in FPS vs 5-10 km in a flightsim. So, in many cases an average flightsim may have more polygons in the scene, then an average FPS of the same age.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/30/05 12:59 AM

As if life wasn't hard enough for us poor fighter pilots trying to shoot down bombers, here's the dreaded fuselage rear-and-downwards shooting tunnel for the machine gunner of the Gotha bomber:

http://www.gennadich.com/img/dev/scr13f.jpg

- Too bad we wont be able to do long-range missions over London... - but then again, might be a bit boring to fly so far at 200 kmph!

Will this monster be flyable?

I'd love a later expansion with the Imperial Russian Ilya Mourometz bombers! Ever since I saw the Bolshoi Baltiskiy in photos I've thought that russian bombers should really appear in combat sims. Oh, and the Staaken. And Capronis. And the Handley Page...

Did any such wondrous war planes ever grace the sky later?
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/30/05 06:53 AM

200 kph? If it dived all the way maybe.
Or do you mean TAS?
Posted By: KraziKanuK

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/30/05 11:43 AM

The Gotha G.V. had a top speed of 140kph.
Posted By: PatWilson

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/30/05 05:23 PM

Gothas and HPs were mostly used as night bombers. I wonder if a home defense campaign will be included for British pilots. Taking to the air in a Camel trying to bring down a Gotha. That could be a challenge \:\) .
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/30/05 08:25 PM

I thought they ran 2 seaters for that kind of duty.
At least that's what they used in Hell's Angels.
It lets the rear gunner get all kinds of shots even from below.
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 12/30/05 08:46 PM

Quote:

Gothas and HPs were mostly used as night bombers.
I thought both were used mostly as day bombers, even if the Gotha switched to night ops later on.

Quote:

It lets the rear gunner get all kinds of shots even from below.
This was the idea behind the infamous Defiant. When it worked it worked really well, like when the rear gunner in one Defiant massacred a Stuka flight in a matter of seconds. But the problem was of course the enemy fighters...
Posted By: Trink_Afri-Cola

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/03/06 02:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
Use the flare gun to burn your plane if you soft land on the wrong side?
Good idea.
Posted By: Ben131IAP

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/03/06 11:19 AM

Well if true all this is very good news.
I am surprised that no one has made a WW1 sim before to any quality.
It is a must for me as such a sim is what flying is all about.
Ben.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/12/06 03:14 PM

Hey, apparently when we've all been horsing around....



....GT has been considering their next WWI update preview....



....tanks a lot!!!



(check it out)

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500
Posted By: Kennel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/12/06 03:52 PM

Well I really hope this gets an Australian release
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/12/06 04:01 PM

Yiiiii-haaaaaaa!
Posted By: Heini von Seppel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/12/06 04:43 PM

Triple wow !

Horse drawn artillery, the Brisfit, the crappy Schneider tank ... drool.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/12/06 05:09 PM

'Cowboys Of World War One'

Thanks Flyby looking good!

Horse-drawn artillery pieces really? Wow.

Please do not allow the horses to be injured mate or the English will not relish the fight. We love horses.

The French will relish the horses though. They also love horses but not in the same way. In sandwiches. With the aforementioned relish \:\)

Ming
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/12/06 11:14 PM

The horses are precisely what I wanted to see. Now if we can only have riders to go with them... Please, Gennadich, please?

We need more horses and fewer tanks in all pre-1945 sims. And this one just moved up the realism ladder.
Posted By: Flatlander

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/12/06 11:48 PM

I'm sold already! Whats the target date for this product?

~Flatlander
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/13/06 12:09 AM

But, I guess the horses will just stand still...

And how does their damage model look? - could get yucky. Well, I guess it will just be a horse lying down, splayed-out legs.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/13/06 09:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by guderian ente:
The horses are precisely what I wanted to see. Now if we can only have riders to go with them... Please, Gennadich, please?
you mean cavalary? its already planned as unit ;\)
cants say how it will look and act like, but it will present somehow \:\)

Quote:
Originally posted by Flatlander:
I'm sold already! Whats the target date for this product?
~Flatlander
the plan is for the end of 2006

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
But, I guess the horses will just stand still...

And how does their damage model look? - could get yucky. Well, I guess it will just be a horse lying down, splayed-out legs.
we still discuss/workin over it
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/13/06 12:24 PM

I think you should have something with intestines spilling out... :p
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/13/06 12:33 PM

Hey, lets face it-war is a, er, a, yucky. ;\)

Copterdrvr
Posted By: DaidalosTeam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/13/06 12:52 PM

Hey Viks. Great to see horses in the game!

One idea:

Would you consider making the horse skin less red and more brown? It seems a bit too Irish now (no offense to Irishmen). \:\) Even better would be to have couple different skins for horses for more diversity. Maybe black and brown?
Posted By: Guderian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/13/06 01:35 PM

For comparison, here is a pic of a horse from Rome Total War. I think the Gennadich horses look pretty good for a flight sim!

Quote:

You mean cavalry? It's already planned as unit.
Great! I guess that means infantry and gun crews are in too?

Quote:

Can't say how it will look and act like, but it will present somehow.
I know you guys want to hedge your bets, but I think we have a pretty good idea of what cavalry will look like. \:\)

Quote:

Would you consider making the horse skin less red and more brown?
Stop flogging that dead....... \:\)
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/13/06 07:52 PM

I really like the textures on the vehicles. Proir to these sets of screenies I knew nothing about WW1 armoured vehicles. As an update comes out with another weird looking metal tracked thingy I keep searching for info about them. I just hope they can devise some way of tweaking the IL2 engine so it copes better with mobile ground units.

Can't wait for the in engine gameplay shots and videos \:\)
Posted By: ic13

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 02:50 PM


Its thursday again and our friends in Moscow have favored us with some lovely images of SPADS
Posted By: II./JG1_Pritzl

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 03:05 PM

I wonder if this will be another mergable add-on like PF?
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 03:15 PM

Fokkers and Camels and Spads-oh my! \:\)

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 03:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by II./JG1_Pritzl:
I wonder if this will be another mergable add-on like PF?
This game has nothing to do with 1C or Il-2 series. Only that its based on il-2 engine..so its a standalone separate one.
Posted By: uberweng

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 04:14 PM

Wow, those Spads textures are amazing. This game is going to make for some great screen shots.
Posted By: SeaWulfe

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 04:37 PM

Wonder if the planes will cast shadows on themselves. Don't know if the Il2 engine could do it though.
Posted By: LukeFF

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 04:48 PM

Quote:
new flyght model mathematics are almost close to final, so it looks like all thing goin right, at least we hope so :rolleyes:
hmmmm.... \:D
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jutocsa:
This game has nothing to do with 1C or Il-2 series. Only that its based on il-2 engine..so its a standalone separate one.
Actually 1C is our publisher ;\)
As about IL2 - its based on IL2 engine but its not addon for IL2 - its stand alone product.
Posted By: bzhyoyo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 05:53 PM

about the spad VII : the weathering is overdone IMO (having the excellent 4T publication book about the spad VII as a reference).
Other than that, mouth watering shots \:\)
Posted By: Dantes

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 07:18 PM

Love the repair work textures on the wings. It looks like it has seen a few muddy fields. ;\)

I'm liking the worn, sun-faded look. It's interesting and the texture artist's work appears thankfully consistent with that theme. Since we will usually be seeing these planes from a distance, having more defined textures will be helpful to convey the details of one's opponenet. Clean might look too bland when seen from the cockpit. There are allot of amazing artists out there so I'm sure people will develop and find skins that suits their tastes.

Perhaps in a campaign mode, one's plane could start out fresh and clean and the weathering would become progressive as time passes and seasons change. Swapping out textures or having multi-layered weathering alphas being applied could be quite fun to see. the longer you survive the campaign, the more weathered and personal one's plane could appear.

The ability to add custom items similar to Red Baron 3D would be nice as bonuses. A much more satisflying way to show progress than just a kill tally board.

Good luck with the flight model. Glad to hear the work is being revised and hopefully improved upon for the quirks of rotaries, etc. =FB=VikS, when you do present a promotional movie, it would be most helpful to see some examples of bad flying rather than planes gliding along to convey what might be in store for if a player stalls out. Seeing planes carefully flown around is nice but I'm interested in what happens if mistakes are made.

Can't wait to see them in action. That beautiful sun glare in the IL2 engine should be perfect for stalking tactics.

S!
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/19/06 11:41 PM

All I know......I just want to reach out a touch it! \:D \:D \:D

Posted By: Flatlander

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/20/06 05:08 PM

Wow.


Keep up the good work.
~Flatlander
Posted By: Undo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/20/06 08:07 PM

This...is...amazing...
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/20/06 09:23 PM

Please in the LOD models do not have a plane get bigger as it goes away from you?

I hate that immersion killer in the FB planes

Really gorgeous shots thanks!

In BoB we might have self-shadowing

I'm desperately trying not to ask when VikS?



Nope - couldn't help myself sorry mate \:\)

Ming
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/20/06 09:33 PM

LOL Ming!!! \:\)

(I think we share your excitement about this offering for sure)

One of the most significant things I've read so far....."Actually 1C is our publisher".....

WWI sims actually making it to market is not a subject we enjoy revisiting.

So glad to hear you've got a publisher already VikS, and that it's 1C too.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/20/06 11:12 PM

The pics shown so far are just too beautiful to accurately describe in words.

They are individual masterpieces of art.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Ivan Putski

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/20/06 11:23 PM

I`ll second what copterdvr said, the attention to detail in the models shown is just fantastic, be a winner for sure.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/24/06 12:05 PM

Lest we forget "the war to end all wars"

More update pics please!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/24/06 10:30 PM

I've got to agree with bzhyoyo. The weathering on that Spad does look a bit extreme. It looks like its been outside in the sun/rain for 50 years or so. Although I don't really like overly weathered skins unless there's historical pics to back up the look, maybe its a matter of taste. Lovely detail though.

Come on then lets have some more pics \:D
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/24/06 10:40 PM

I'm not so sure - they may have flown from "airfields", but there would have been plenty of mud around.

I'm sure the weathering on WWI planes would have been a bit more extreme than what we're familiar with in our WWII environment.

Then again, I'm sure the fantastic skinners will pull out all the stops on these aircraft.

Oh he11, I'm drooling again. ;\)
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/25/06 03:24 AM

First off the plane is covered with fabric which probably didn't hold the paint well, and the second point is that obviously the paints used "back then" didn't have the qualities of the paints available for use during WW2.

I'd be willing to bet that they looked like crap pretty quickly in the miserable environment they operated in.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: bzhyoyo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/25/06 06:19 AM

I based my comment on the pics I've seen of spads. But I could well be wrong as I suppose the photographers didn't choose the most battered planes on the airfield.

However, even with mud, I think that most planes were well attended and so not as dirty as some skinners and simmers like them to be. That goes true for WWII too.

Weathering is really the art of subtlety IMO.
Anyway, overdone or not, the Gennadich team has some very talented texturers and modelers in their team.
Posted By: choxaway

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/25/06 04:02 PM

Since this game looks really exciting, couldn't we have a new forum dedicated to it?
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/25/06 04:29 PM

Salute

There was wear and tear on the aircraft. Often condition depended on how new the plane was.

Some shots of Georges Guynemer's Spad VII's :



Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 12:54 AM

The first picture of Capitaine(sp?) Guynemer's plane that he's standing in front of with his "dress blue's and tennis shoes" on, as we used to say, looks pretty clean.

The second photo posted looks like a plane that he flew in combat and it looks kinda ratty to me. ;\)

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Dantes

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 12:37 PM

Remember also when considering photos: Most are of high ranking aces like Georges Guynemer. I figure figures like him would have thier planes kept in the best care possible: And it still looks worn.

Of course, one could argue that only the vets would have a worn looking plane. The new fliers with nice shiny machines would not last long enough to dirty them up!

Take your pick I guess. ;\)

Anything from the tail end of the war on the Central Powers side must have been looking pretty banged up when their resources became very scarce.

Probably just the artist having fun with baking textures. At least they will fit in well with the rather depressing look of the front lines.

According to the devs on the forum, allot of these planes will have parts that move and flex realistically. Looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

S!
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 03:08 PM

Those engines were known for belching smoke, water, grease and oil, they certainly messed up the fuselages quite quickly.
Posted By: bzhyoyo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 04:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dantes:
Remember also when considering photos: Most are of high ranking aces like Georges Guynemer. I figure figures like him would have thier planes kept in the best care possible: And it still looks worn.

Of course, one could argue that only the vets would have a worn looking plane. The new fliers with nice shiny machines would not last long enough to dirty them up!

Take your pick I guess. ;\)
Exactly the points I wanted to make. Thanks for the pics Buzzsaw, the second one especially.
Boils down to a choice then, as both options seem realistic.
Posted By: *Buzzsaw*

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 04:27 PM

Salute

Something which I wanted to mention:

Most of these aircraft were covered in fabric. (Exceptions: German aircraft such as the Albatros D III/V and Pfalz DIII had their fuselages made from laminated woods, which was heated and shaped to fit the design, and certain other aircraft such as the Breguet two seater had a lot of aluminum sheeting covering the fuselage. All aircraft, with the exception of the Junkers monoplane, had wings covered in fabric)

The fabric was stretched across the wings and fuselage during manufacture, and then was painted with a doping compound, which dried to a somewhat shiny finish. (essentially this compound was like our furniture resins) This resin coating gave some protection against the weather, and could be cleaned to a certain extent.

It also was highly inflammable, one of the reasons why WWI aircraft tended to catch fire very easily.

Anyway, the point I am making is that certainly the doped fabric would tend to get dirty. But it would not degrade too much because of the resin protection.
Posted By: LukeFF

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 04:51 PM

A new dev update has been posted!

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500

Quote:
Hello everyone!. Skinned Bristol F2B Fighter and 3D of Pfalz D.XII. And a demo sample of SPAD engine http://www.gennadich.com/img/dev/demo_spad.mp3
Posted By: ic13

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 04:54 PM

This weeks offerings don't look quite as weathered.

There seems to be more weathering from the underside.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 05:40 PM

Great-looking gunner position on the Bristol! I wonder if we can play gunner?
Posted By: Heini von Seppel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 06:01 PM

Good question !

Will the gunner positions be mannable?

And will there be a flyable Halberstadt CLII to roam the allied trenches, please?
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 07:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Heini von Seppel:
Good question !

Will the gunner positions be mannable?
yes

Quote:

And will there be a flyable Halberstadt CLII to roam the allied trenches, please?
cant say at the moment, lets say - maybe \:\)
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 07:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ic13:
This weeks offerings don't look quite as weathered.
-----------------
There seems to be more weathering from the underside.
As about difference between up and underside
the thing is that (as example from life): - what is the difference between white car, which will run thru the dirt bath, and the dark painted one?
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 08:02 PM

Looks good to me Viks, not dissimilar to the one I've seen at Duxford. Which I have a photo of somewhere. I'll dig it out later.
Quick Q...Will, like IL2, user skins be able to be imported into the game?
Posted By: II./JG1_Pritzl

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 08:07 PM

Viks, when you get the chance/if you are allowed, please elaborate on any planned gameplay improvements.
Posted By: GOZR

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 08:14 PM

Great Viks ! Now train to fly a bit, we need to fight again.. ;\)

Site moved ( Prowar now became I.O.C.L )
http://www.gozr.net/iocl
Posted By: DaidalosTeam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 09:34 PM

Nice update. But all I can suggest again is please to reconsider the texture. I believe less quite often means more. In this case it's the wing ribs. I believe it's way overdone (both upper and bottom). To me they look like 5cm thick steel sheets on the model, giving a very cartoonish look. Please reconsider and take a look here:




Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/26/06 09:44 PM

I agree on the wing ribs: definitely overdone on the Bristol.

Great to hear we'll be able to man the rear gun!!!
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 12:38 AM

Would those ribs outlines be graphics of the ribs in the 3D model? Is pixel size making them look wider?
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 03:15 AM

Come on guys, they will be skinnable planes I am sure. How many of you still fly around in the default FB skins and after all they are still WIP and being renderd outside of the game. Just consider it battlefield patination.
Posted By: DaidalosTeam

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 06:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by killdevil:
Come on guys, they will be skinnable planes I am sure. How many of you still fly around in the default FB skins and after all they are still WIP and being renderd outside of the game. Just consider it battlefield patination.
Not really true. Especially online people use default skins most of the time for better performance. I know they are WIPs and therefore could be still improved, therefore I am bothering to point it out.
Posted By: Slap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 06:58 AM

Just had to watch the "Blue Max" again...Great film and, along with this thread, makes one yearn to get up flying close and personal.

"I will fly with Stachel"

=)
Posted By: Billy Pryce

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 09:58 AM

Oh man this really is the best news, Brisfit looks nice, can't wait.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 10:26 AM

One thing that needs to be eliminated on the Biff's skin are the white outlines around the lower wing roundels, besides this we all have to remember that skins are artwork too!

Computers come in a poor second when rendering the visual sensations of real life.

I for one think the GT skins will look especially good (dare I say dramatic) at in-game combat ranges. Sure, if we're walking around the aircraft on the ground looking at details as if in an art museum we might feel the critic, but getting up in the air, and peering out over our wings where those ribs now look much more dramatic, as well as seeing those of the enemy's as he just flashed by guns ablazing......

Gotta realize guys, some skinning conventions are meant to compensate for the limitations of our PC rendering experience, where a bit of exaggeration goes a long way to ramp up immersion. A "historically-exacting" skin often looks flat and dull when in the air, where subtle details are of no use.

Better to give these GT skins another look where we'll be enjoying them the most, in-game, and at combat visual ranges, then some of you will be praising the detail. ;\)
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Slap:
Just had to watch the "Blue Max" again...Great film and, along with this thread, makes one yearn to get up flying close and personal.
Yeah, up close and personal, especially with Ursula Andress!
Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 12:03 PM

Also realize that the Bristol at Duxford may use a more modern fabric... ;\)
Posted By: Heini von Seppel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 12:48 PM

FlyXwire has a poimt.

When looking at moving aircraft at range ingame subtle colour shifts are usually not seen at all.

So for the best dramatic impression this might actually look best, maybe a bit toned down.

For the view on your own wings from the cockpit however you may prefer something slightly more subtle.

As a scale figure molder I do the same as other scale modelers. I paint lights and shadows onto the surface to get something transported to the viewer. Sometimes with more, sometimes with less success. My sample is 54mm high.



It's kind of like theather makeup which has to work over a distance and looks overdone close up.
Some young women are guilty of this too \:\)
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 12:56 PM

Yes, those are very good points. I think it is what is called texture baking, isn't it?
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 06:43 PM

Quote:
Quick Q...Will, like IL2, user skins be able to be imported into the game?
sure they will ;\)
Posted By: Double_Tap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 07:37 PM

Think of it like stage makeup. ;\)
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 08:56 PM

Excellent work Heini!!!

As a wargaming figure painter for around thirty years (before I got into computer skinning), I had to learn that exacting attention to "scale" detail didn't always get the best results.

As an example, when painting wargaming figurines in 15mm and 25mm scale, more dramatic use of colors and shading can/should be used to demonstrate perceived depth in the model's detail (like Heini has done nicely with his 54mm Pouli above, but to a larger extent, because the surfaces are even smaller to work with in order convey dimension and depth on the little miniatures). Even though I won awards for my painting, on the miniature table-top, where the wargames figures were actually used (rather than at finger-length viewing range), the fine details were lost to the naked eye. More dramatic affect was achieved by exaggerating the use of colors and shading to give a greater impression of depth in the folds of a figurine's molded uniforms for example, or to highlight layers of accoutrements that were cast in the sculpted figures.

I've also learned that this technique (exaggeration of detail, shading, or adding texture), also works well in a simulated environment too! Here's two versions of the same basic skin.....this first version of James McCudden's SE5a for OFF, is without "canvas" texturing enhancement:



The second version has an exaggerated "weave" look to the canvas:



Which works better for you?

I actually like the second version, even though the detail is way out of scale....as you couldn't really see the canvas "weave" at the viewing range the screenshot reflects, but it conveys the property of the 3D model's skin, giving the impression of fabric, and speaking to the viewers mind (through his eyes) that he's looking at a canvas-covered surface. It's actually a totally out of scale and exaggerated effect, but the desired affect works (in my mind.....and most of your's too). ;\)

Now wing ribs that look too "detailed" at a distance (as perhaps some feel is the case with GT's Bristol F2b skin), will look great at close viewing range (from the cockpit), where we would expect to see the detailed lacing of wing-tape attached to rib in all its glory. The real solution to some of these skinning anomalies would be to have "virtual skins" of great detail for when viewing a plane's wings and fuselage decking from the cockpit, and then to have another "distance skin" kick in for viewing at longer ranges (for rendering effect with depth exaggeration with colors and shadowing)......kinda like what virtual cockpits and "2D" cockpits do, but for an aircraft's skin too. But this kind of graphic refinement is probably years from implementation in our simulations.

At this time, our simulated skins will have to reflect compromises in claritity of detail at close range, as opposed to desired immersive effects seen at longer viewing distances in-game.
Posted By: Barkhorn1x

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/27/06 08:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
Quote:
Quick Q...Will, like IL2, user skins be able to be imported into the game?
sure they will ;\)
Thanks - and of course they will - as it would be nothing short of a tradegy to not be able to include all those user skins that will be made for air warfare's most colorful era.

Barkhorn.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 01/28/06 12:34 AM

These planes are just so beautiful. The waiting is killing me!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/02/06 04:43 PM

Ok guys, try not to wet yourselves!

Check out these latest developement shots from GT:

(Sopwith Snipe snout)



(Nieuport 17 perfection)



Look here for this week's goodies:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500

Btw, is it just me, or do these previews look as if directional lighting is now enabled?
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/02/06 05:25 PM

Oh my, that is a nice looking Nieuport!
Posted By: 'Wee' Mac

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/02/06 05:28 PM

Nah, its the camel without the death wish tendencies that gets my vote
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/02/06 06:06 PM

"and we hope post "in game"screens already at March , with the the new landscape and FX engine."

WOOOOT!!!!


Regarding the cartoonish, somewhat exaggerated skin effects. Yup, I agree they have a place in a sim such as this, based on the il-2 engine, which is not as realistic as Lock-On, for instance.

The il-2 world calls for skins like these (I think I already wrote that back in the early pages of this thread). Still, the ribbing on those wings seems a bit overdone to me, even when going along with the slightly cartoonish look.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/02/06 09:51 PM

They'll probably seem really nice when you look upwards from your cockpit. \:\)



(or when you catch an enemy in your sights....***screenshot modification above***)

We'll have to wait till the lighting effects are fully impemented too.
Posted By: Undo

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/02/06 09:53 PM

When is this masterwork going to be in my sweaty little palms, that's my question?
Posted By: Dantes

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/03/06 08:12 AM

And so the quality continues. ;\)

S!
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/03/06 09:28 AM

Mahogany prop?

Was Burma delivering?

Ming
CEO
Covert Bumpage Inc

Is it just me or is this absolutely beautiful?
Someone photoshop in background scenery
You'll all be flying this one in 1600x1200 \:\)
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/03/06 11:40 AM

Agreed, apart from the Spad the textures/skins in the screens from GT have been fantastic.

When's this out again?
Posted By: Mahoney

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/03/06 12:47 PM

Heh, the Snipe - I can hear a certain Vampire muttering "experimental" to himself now...

Please may this one get to release. Looks absolutely wonderful. I will start simming again for the first time in a couple of years.
Posted By: CAF

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/03/06 02:30 PM

The Nieuport 17 looks fantastic, lets hope this detail extends to the all pilots and the rear observer/gunner's that we will be seeing a lot of.

CAF
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/03/06 02:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mahoney:

Please may this one get to release. Looks absolutely wonderful. I will start simming again for the first time in a couple of years.
Are we finally seeing above the true heir to our beloved, but still-born Birds of Prey!!!



(remember this one guys) ;\)
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/03/06 02:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mahoney:

Please may this one get to release. Looks absolutely wonderful. I will start simming again for the first time in a couple of years.
I think there's a lot of people just waiting for something new to get their teeth into. Not that the IL2 series isn't fantastic but sometimes you need a change.

Flight sims as a genre are so close to death that the docs have got the defib out
Posted By: Mr. Lucky

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/03/06 11:57 PM

I absolutely love flying in Il2/FB/PF but if they're using the old IL2 engine, then it won't support Track IR's 6dof. Also, IL2's campaigns and immersion does leave a bit to be desired. I can't wait to see what they bring to the table, but these guys have given them an awfully high bar to shoot for.
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/04/06 01:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Lucky:
I absolutely love flying in Il2/FB/PF but if they're using the old IL2 engine, then it won't support Track IR's 6dof. Also, IL2's campaigns and immersion does leave a bit to be desired. I can't wait to see what they bring to the table, but these guys have given them an awfully high bar to shoot for.
I think you'll find they are working from the source code of IL2. In which case modifacations to the code are possible and if I've read this project right, then they are given it a polish and 6DOF is very possible. Didn't Viks hint further up this thread that they were looking into full TIR support?
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/04/06 01:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mahoney:
Please may this one get to release. Looks absolutely wonderful. I will start simming again for the first time in a couple of years.
It'd be good to see you back in a Camel Mahoney. \:D
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/04/06 02:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EAF92_Brigstock:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Lucky:
I absolutely love flying in Il2/FB/PF but if they're using the old IL2 engine, then it won't support Track IR's 6dof. Also, IL2's campaigns and immersion does leave a bit to be desired. I can't wait to see what they bring to the table, but these guys have given them an awfully high bar to shoot for.
I think you'll find they are working from the source code of IL2. In which case modifacations to the code are possible and if I've read this project right, then they are given it a polish and 6DOF is very possible. Didn't Viks hint further up this thread that they were looking into full TIR support?
From what's been posted by people in the know 6DOF is possible in the IL2 engine. It would need the total re-build of every 3D model though, so it isn't going to happen.
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/04/06 02:44 PM

Only the cockpit 3Ds as there are no collision surfaces built in to the standard models we have already. Oleg was unwilling to proceed because of the time and money involved in going over every existing flyable. I expect 6DOF in BoB and with anyluck in the gennadich project also.
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/04/06 02:48 PM

I think its been confirmed as a go by GT. I'd class 6DOF as being a given for any serious flightsim now.
Posted By: Jarvis

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/04/06 04:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EAF92_Brigstock:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mahoney:
Please may this one get to release. Looks absolutely wonderful. I will start simming again for the first time in a couple of years.
It'd be good to see you back in a Camel Mahoney. \:D
I'll second that
Posted By: fearlesslds

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/05/06 12:05 AM

When is this due out . And what other sims are being developed for WW1
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/05/06 12:49 AM

go back in this thread, the gennadich team alreadsy pronounced itself on 6DOF...
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 02:55 PM

It's Happy Thursday again!

New update screenshots for GT's "Knights".

The Sopwith Pup model makes its lovely appearance:



Guns or butter.......well guns of course!!! ;\)



Fantastic cockpit modeling for the Nieuport 17:



You know the addy:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500

(some interesting "insider" info onsite too)
Posted By: Barkhorn1x

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 03:15 PM

Yummy!

Barkhorn.
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 03:38 PM

Ooohhh god, droooooool.

Posted By: Frankyboy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 03:39 PM

yes,the 3D modell work looks amazing !

lets wait for the game \:\)
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 03:51 PM

AUCH! - Is that the forward view? This will make the 190-whining seem like nothing! :-)

BTW, it is "features" LOFT, not "futures". Thx a lot for the update!

Posted By: CHDT

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 04:01 PM

This is the problem of the geometrically correct 3d modeling which should nevertheless be slighty adapted because of the lack of binocular vision in a sim.
Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 04:03 PM

TrackIR 3dof please! \:D Those look fantastic!

BTW WWI aircraft were known for their horrible cockpit views. Obviously some were better than others! ;\)
Posted By: CHDT

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 04:03 PM

This is why I never fly biplanes in PF. Waiting for the Bristol M2 \:\)
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 04:07 PM

Well, when I went up in the Tiger Moth at Duxford, the forward view was unbelievably cr@p ! \:D
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 06:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
AUCH! - Is that the forward view? This will make the 190-whining seem like nothing! :-)
its actually made a litle lower to show some inside details, so actual gunsight view will be around the eyes on the edge of windshield/little bit lower of it.

Quote:

BTW, it is "features" LOFT, not "futures". Thx a lot for the update!
fixed \:D
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 06:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
AUCH! - Is that the forward view? This will make the 190-whining seem like nothing! :-)
That's no problem Freycinet, because there's no whining allowed in WWI.....no one could hear the complaints anyway. ;\)
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 06:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ArgonV:

BTW WWI aircraft were known for their horrible cockpit views. Obviously some were better than others! ;\)
Just part of the charm!
Posted By: Dantes

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 07:12 PM

Indeed. Anyone who opened their mouth received a castor oil digestive. Ugh... ;\)

Loving the update piccies!

Any idea when the official web site will be up and running?

I was surprised to hear that Eugeniy Karpov is working with you. It is fantastic news but also leaves me wondering... Has there been a merger of the D-Strict and Grennadich team? If so, I think it was a masterful move on both parts to collaborate.

If it is just one of the members, does that mean the "Sikorsky" project is dead in the water? If so, I feel sorry for the other two individuals involved. I thank them for trying their hand at WW1 while it lasted.

S!
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dantes:
Indeed. Anyone who opened their mouth received a castor oil digestive. Ugh... ;\)

Loving the update piccies!

Any idea when the official web site will be up and running?
we plan it for middle of spring or so

Quote:

I was surprised to hear that Eugeniy Karpov is working with you. It is fantastic news but also leaves me wondering... Has there been a merger of the D-Strict and Grennadich team? If so, I think it was a masterful move on both parts to collaborate.

If it is just one of the members, does that mean the "Sikorsky" project is dead in the water? If so, I feel sorry for the other two individuals involved. I thank them for trying their hand at WW1 while it lasted.

S!
there shouldnt be any wonders cause:
- Eugeny was lookin for job, we invite him, so he is with us now;
- we have a contact with all "Sikorsky" members before that, and we have it now, but i cant say any more cause everything can happen, and we cant speak for "Sikorsky".

So to conclude it in simple words - now we (GT) have a new member, and soon you will be able to see his creations for "Knights" too.

S!
Posted By: Mahoney

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/09/06 09:11 PM

Hi Brigstock and Jarvis - hope all is well with both of you.

Pup - fantastic. Always was my favourite plane.
Posted By: ic13

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 03:16 PM

Thursday is now my favorite day of the week. Here's why...


Plenty of great looking Pfalz and Sopwith Pup screenies at Gennadich Team's update site. (available at the top of this Thread)
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 03:36 PM

Mine too ic13. \:\)

The Pfalz D.XII texturing is simply fantastic!

GT's quality of appearance is almost at the level of Mark Miller's wonderful 3D artwork.....and these previews show builds for a limited-poly flight sim environment.......very impressive!!!

Posted By: Slap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 03:44 PM

Bloody fantastic!

S!
Posted By: Obi_Kwiet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 04:22 PM

Dang! That some crazy AA there! What's it at, 16X?
Posted By: Ivan Putski

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 06:55 PM

Both the Sopwith Pup, and Pfalz XII, are fantastic.
Posted By: ic13

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 07:01 PM

There is a great site for WWI aviation information at http://www.theaerodrome.com/
It is a great place to find performance specifications on the planes that Gennadich is posting screenshots of each Thursday. There is also a tremendous amount of information about the aces of WWI from all nations. Precise info about their victories is included. It is the best site I've seen for background information on WWI aviation. It should be very useful for acquiring info on units, pilots and planes when building missions and campaigns for the new sim. I guess I'm getting ahead of myself there but,hey, I'm eager for this new sim. Besides the wealth of info at the aerodrome can help pass the time while we wait.
Posted By: RocketDog

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 09:12 PM

Pfaltz XII !!!!

Oh hurraaah!

This is looking better and better.

Cheers,

RocketDog.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 09:51 PM

Those planes are just so beautiful, I can't stand it.

Get this sim finished already!!! \:D

Copterdrvr
Posted By: BusySilent

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 10:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by copterdrvr:
Those planes are just so beautiful, I can't stand it.

Get this sim finished already!!! \:D

Copterdrvr
....also add 3D cockpit with TIR Vector support, detailed ground action and who needs IL2/FB/PF after all (just kidding).
Posted By: CHDT

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 10:20 PM

Arg, you are modeling all these beauties on steroids. Beware of the doping control \:D
Posted By: BFawlty

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 10:34 PM

Man those are looking good!

BF
Posted By: Capt Haddock

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 10:54 PM

Beautiful models! And the cockpits being 6DOF-compatible makes me jump like a kid waiting for a lollipop.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 11:35 PM

Fantastic models and especially textures, just completely drool-inducing.

I wonder whether the metallic shine on the Pup cowling will be painted on (as in the il-2FB engine) or real-time rendered (as in FS2004).
Posted By: gn728

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/16/06 11:52 PM

I hadn't looked at their pages in a while - these guys are serious.
Posted By: Tchaika.

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/17/06 12:48 AM

Fantastic work
Posted By: Graf

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/17/06 03:19 AM

Damn I'm ready for this baby. When is the release date again?
Posted By: =69.GIAP=TOOZ

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/17/06 03:37 AM

Just makes me want to replay the Blue Max over and over again every time I see a new aircraft rendered here!!
Posted By: Lignite

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/17/06 05:44 AM

Talk about POTENTIAL! Really fine effort GT team, this is going to be fun (another sale \:\) ).
Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/17/06 05:52 AM

Wait!

Livestock!

NOW were getting some where!

Posted By: Crop-Duster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/17/06 05:54 AM

And of course the prereguisete lozange camo
Posted By: fearlesslds

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/21/06 10:22 PM

Is there a site for this sim besides the Russian one . Or another thread ????
Posted By: piper

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/21/06 11:37 PM

They actually modelled a horse's ass. Hmm.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 02:35 AM

What a beautiful camo job!

Can you imagine the sight looking left and right from your cockpit and seeing six or seven beautifully painted birds of prey flying in a close, line abreast formation, the pilots eyes glued on your every movement, waiting for your hand signal to signify the attack on the lumbering bombers a thousand feet below.

Wow!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: wingstrut

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 03:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Col. Douglas King:
I´m definitely interested!

And can anticipate wich will be my favourite plane for it:


\:D
Dear Douglas,

I will refrain from using fowl language. Its not my style. But you sir are dishonest to say the least. You have stolen my artwork and have the nerve to sign your name and claim copyright. That's fraud. Please cease and decist from stealing artwork and claiming it as your own. Although I work for a law firm I will not engage in threats of lawsuit as I would presume you are honorable enough to remove your post and claimed copyright from any images. However,if I find you have submitted any artwork for publication that stance may change. I don't feel I need to explain every detail here as you are well aware of your actions and they were done so with intent.

Specifically if appears you took my image of a Spad 13, cut and past, to get your image above.

Spads

My artwork has appeared in publication before in a number of Cross & Cockade and Over the Front Journals.

You don't need to offer explanations or excuses. Just remove it and post that you will not engage in activity such as this again so I won't need to bother following up with this sort of stuff.

Thanks
Posted By: Flatlander

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 05:22 AM



Great work there guys! Cant wait!
~Flatlander
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 11:59 AM

Whoa, that's pretty low by "Col. Douglas King". He made some small changes to your profile, blurs it slightly so it won't show and then smacks on a new copyright notice. Jeezus...

Great, measured reply wingstrut, I'd be more angry than that, but yours is the good approach.

You should know that Col. Douglas King is known for, let's say, inflating his real-life persona, and also for a somewhat strange merge of his own identity and those of his on-line avatars.

(BTW, Col. Douglas King's original posting is way back on page 1 of this thread.)
Posted By: Jutocsa

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 12:18 PM

Thats very low indeed...
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 01:11 PM

Ouch

Good to hear from the original and talented artist though- so we can tell him that we admire his beautiful artwork very much!

Ming
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 01:47 PM

To go back on topic, I wonder whether the metal sheen seen on engines and fuselages is painted on, or whether it will be rendered live in the sim, dependent on the position of the planes. The sheen looks great in screenies of planes that fly level, but real-time it really looks fake.

Examples:
http://www.gennadich.com/img/dev/scr8l.jpg
http://www.gennadich.com/img/dev/scr3l.jpg

I know the FB engine doesn't do real-time rendering of this, but will it be in the WWI sim?
Posted By: shyrsio

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 01:59 PM

i don't think that the IL-2 engine can do that(real time metalic shade randering), but i've post it as a wish for BOB.
Posted By: killdevil

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 02:26 PM

Sure, it probably can for example we have those fancy vertex and PS3 shaders for the water. They could also code in what they needed. It looks like they have done that to me and it does look great!

Wingstrut, I'd use watermarks for your online content. You seem to have problems with this. There are also ways to keep folks from copying images from websites as well as hotlinking.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 02:52 PM

real time metalic shade randering

Environment mapping (reflectivity map) I think you mean here shyrsio, PF does not have that I think or we could see real reflections even on the fuselages

http://www.jawa9000.com/technical/norays/environment_mapping.htm#figure02

http://guru3d.com/review/msi/agphantom/bubble.jpg

Classically chrome \:\)

And our monocle will show us looking in the mirror rather haughtily as we admire our duelling scars \:\)

We will have this in BoB for sure. We may even see our faces in the mirror. Maybe not so good then for immersion I will look like Father Christmas in a Spitfire yuk - please send me a mugshot of Douglas Bader someone \:\)

Ming
Posted By: LukeFF

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 02:54 PM

Methinks a long "vacation" is in order for Mr. King...

:rolleyes:
Posted By: BusySilent

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 04:43 PM

I can't believe this was not posted yet:
Balloon=Juicy Target

Posted By: Mahoney

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 05:04 PM

Juicy target surrounded by more archie than you'd believe possible and with half the German Air Service prowling around above them... very dangerous occupation, balloon busting.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 06:37 PM

Yup, it was for a reason that a balloon counted as much as a plane kill in WWI.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 06:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BusySilent:
I can't believe this was not posted yet:
Balloon=Juicy Target
Hey, for a reason Busysilent: it was posted only today! - thanks for the heads-up!

Fantastic Rumpler and especially... SPAD!
Posted By: CHDT

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 06:52 PM

So, Le Prieur rockets is a must have \:D



Btw, look here, not only Nieuport Bébé were fitted with Le Prieur rockets, but also Pups and Camels:

http://images.google.com/images?client=o...f-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Posted By: CHDT

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 06:56 PM

Doesn't it look übercool?




Btw, it seems that Spads could also be fitted with Le Prieur rockets:

Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 08:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
Yup, it was for a reason that a balloon counted as much as a plane kill in WWI.
Well I suppose they were the WW1 equivalent of AWACS \:D
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/23/06 08:52 PM

lol
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/24/06 02:01 PM

I'll bet that part of the pilots setup in preparation for lighting off one of those suicide sticks was to scrunch down in the cockpit as far as he could, and duck his head just as he lets it fly.

I wonder how often those things went off(as in detonated) when they were launched?

Jeez, those guys had GUTS!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: shyrsio

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/24/06 03:21 PM

Quote:
real time metalic shade randering

Environment mapping (reflectivity map) I think you mean here shyrsio, PF does not have that I think or we could see real reflections even on the fuselages

http://www.jawa9000.com/technical/norays/environment_mapping.htm#figure02

http://guru3d.com/review/msi/agphantom/bubble.jpg

Classically chrome \:\)

And our monocle will show us looking in the mirror rather haughtily as we admire our duelling scars \:\)

We will have this in BoB for sure. We may even see our faces in the mirror. Maybe not so good then for immersion I will look like Father Christmas in a Spitfire yuk - please send me a mugshot of Douglas Bader someone \:\)

Ming
I'm not an expert in 3D language but at least you got what i ment right? \:D

THANK YOU FOR THE LINKS Ming!!
Posted By: Stearman

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/26/06 11:29 PM

I´m proud to tell you that our original Daimler DIIIa sounds (Fokker DVII) will be used in this great Addon

More Daimler sounds at:
http://www.biplanes.de/sounds.shtml

Have fun \:\)
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/26/06 11:50 PM

CHDT... the plane firing rocket from ground.....

Was that test of anti-balloon or was it test of new WWI highly mobile Katayushka! ;-) Shhh, secret weapon! We make bigger rockets next! LOL!

Really though at airspeed there wouldn't be any big cloud of smoke and the head won't blow till the rocket is done burning will it? Or did the heads even blow? All it had to do was pierce the balloon with that trail of burning sparks coming out the back. Why make em range-specific with a timed det?
Posted By: AlexanderV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/28/06 09:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
To go back on topic, I wonder whether the metal sheen seen on engines and fuselages is painted on, or whether it will be rendered live in the sim, dependent on the position of the planes. The sheen looks great in screenies of planes that fly level, but real-time it really looks fake.
I wouldn't rely on the shown screens to judge about the quality of the graphics of the sim. The reason is simple...the screens are obviously rendered in the program that was used to create the models. Therefore, especially the lighting will be completely different in the sim engine (worse than in the rendering program).

Alexander
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/28/06 10:04 AM

Yup, I know that Alexander, but good point. I guess the shading will be the same that we know in Il-2.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/28/06 11:23 AM

Oleg is using 'synthesised sounds' for the engines I think Stearman

Are you saying that the WW1 project Forgotten Housebricks will be using wavefiles or some sort of real recordings of the planes' engines?

Very happy to hear that if so, thanks!

Ming
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/28/06 11:36 AM

Ming, some pages back in this thread the Gennadich crew put up a few of their engine sound files you can listen to. VERY different from il-2fb sounds!
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/28/06 12:05 PM

Thanks Freycinet

Why can't we have the proper Merlin sound then one is extremely tempted to ask we were told it's impossible be sure \:\)

Cheers mate will have a listen when I get to a computer with a soundcard installed. ATCO has much to answer for \:\)

http://www.abbeygardensales.co.uk/subprod/atco-petrol-0001143.aspx

Ming
Posted By: AlexanderV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/28/06 02:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
Yup, I know that Alexander, but good point. I guess the shading will be the same that we know in Il-2.
If they don't change anything to the graphics engine I think we will basically see what we saw with IL2.

Alexander
Posted By: Yeatsie

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/28/06 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ming_EAF19:
Thanks Freycinet

Why can't we have the proper Merlin sound then one is extremely tempted to ask we were told it's impossible be sure \:\)

Cheers mate will have a listen when I get to a computer with a soundcard installed. ATCO has much to answer for \:\)

http://www.abbeygardensales.co.uk/subprod/atco-petrol-0001143.aspx

Ming
Probably because we have ten squillion flyables and most PC's would expire at the thought of rendering unique sounds for each of them where as this little foray into WWI would have far less flyables and hence more room for the authenticities.
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/28/06 07:46 PM

I really don't see how the number of flyables has anything to do with the engine sounds.

There's a lot of slightly different flyables with the same or similar engines, how many 190's do we have with C or D BMW 801's, how many IL2's with AM38's. I'd rather have a single decent generic Merlin Spit recording for all models of Merlin Spits. It doesn't have to be the exact model of Merlin, a single real recording would be 1000x better than the synthesised crap we have now. For lots of the flyable aircraft we have engine recordings are readilly available.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 02/28/06 10:21 PM

What's he on about

There's only one Merlin mate and we've all heard it

That's it exactly Moggy one decent engine sound it's not too much to ask for is it Oleg. Yep \:\)

I refuse to buy BoB if the engine sounds are wimpy. Believe that and you'll believe anything. Look there's no way to exert consumer pressure when they've got us over a barrel someone do something I'm getting worried about the BoB engine sounds now who started this thread anyway \:\)

Ming
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/01/06 03:12 AM

How else than sampled MIDI? How to change rpm in the sound? Each game engine could use effects on more than a single voice using unique samples and you have full sounds and range without collosal resource usage. MIDI samples are the sounds and MIDI lets you modify them. With 3 or 4 voices you could get all kinds of rock and knock in there, even change for specific damage. It'd be real neat to have a digital sound-sperator though, to get the bits from real runnings.
Posted By: II./JG1_Pritzl

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/01/06 03:40 AM

Am I the only one who prefers the synthesized sounds? Authentic wave files are all fine and dandy for nostalgia's sake, but I find the doppler effect in the IL-2 engine, the true 3D'dness of the sound and the attenuated external sounds while in cockpit far more immersive.
Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/01/06 03:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by II./JG1_Pritzl:
Am I the only one who prefers the synthesized sounds? Authentic wave files are all fine and dandy for nostalgia's sake, but I find the doppler effect in the IL-2 engine, the true 3D'dness of the sound and the attenuated external sounds while in cockpit far more immersive.
Frankly, I can't STAND the sound in this game. The "3Dness" of the sound loses it for me when I start hearing some bomber's gunner firing all the way across the map. The engines dampening when you fire the guns etc just scream "ARCADE!". Compared to games from even 5 years ago the sound in this game sucks...

For all the high quality work done elsewhere in this sim I find the sound engine to be several orders of magnitude of lesser quality than the rest of the game.

I do a lot of video and audio editing and have played with tons of different sound generators of various kinds. The IL2 engine is simply one of the worst I've ever come across in any context.
Posted By: Sulky Boy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/01/06 03:56 AM

Agree with that, Sensei
Theres MMOG flight sims with better sound.
Once we're in WW1 without airspeed indicaters, in some 'kites', sound, such as engine and wind in wires, assumes a whole new importance.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/01/06 12:00 PM

doppler effect in the IL-2 engine

Is simply two engine sounds slightly out of phase. That's a doddle for wavefiles too...

(quite right though mate! I love the engines' phasing too)

MIDI samples are samples, wavefiles. The word MIDI here is a digital decoy \:\)

The 'synthesised sounds' are presumably mixed-down software-generated sinewaves/sawtooths/triangles etc - so that all computers are equal, no need to cater for esoteric audio hardware. TB Pinnacle Pro owners take a bow. A bow out when the PCI bus came in \:\)

Ming
Posted By: BusySilent

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 04:29 PM

See below the quote from today's update.

"At the moment we are working over game code and other parts, and today we want to introduce to you two new features of our own game engine technology.
It is not yet completed, so that is not everything that we show at the moment, soon - there will be more features

- Fresnel-based reflection ( lacquered surfaces and glass )
- Dynamic soft shadows, its workin in a real time and make 3D models come alive and more cool looking.
Now in new render we have two different types of shadows - "soft" and "hard" shadows to make more effective looking picture.

By following link you can download *.rar archive (39.5 mb). Extract it and you will find an *.exe - simply run it to view movie in bink video format

[url=http://www.gennadich.com/img/dev/GT_promo1.rar"]http://www.gennadich.com/img/dev/GT_promo1.rar"[/url]
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 04:56 PM

That's a very funky effect.

I don't want to see everything looking too shiny though, its an issue I have with a lot of modern games. Current gfx tech seems to make everything look shiny, even textures such as cloth which wouldn't reflect light. The uniforms in COD2 are a good example of this.
Posted By: tankeriv

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 04:59 PM

Looks superb.

What company will do the publishing btw?

UBI? EA?
Posted By: Tolwyn

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 05:04 PM

Hopefully you're sharing techniques with 1C/Maddox for an inclusion/engine update to IL2!
Posted By: Heini von Seppel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 05:43 PM

Joy of joys the Halberstadt CLII !

Will this be flyable, please?
Posted By: Capt Haddock

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 08:17 PM

Is that real-time ambient occlussion? Blimey... now that would be trully impressive.

Looks simply gorgeous. Good to see a game developer carefully looking at lighting for a change. Far more important than raw polycounts.

For those who are wondering, Fresnel reflections won't make everthing shiny all the time. The polys only become reflective at very steep angles, as it happens in real life. Next time you drive just look at the car in front: The roof will almost be a perfect mirror, reflecting the sky with great detail, while the back of the car will be just slightly shiny. Same metal material, just different angles.

Top job!
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 08:52 PM

As the GT team say complex lighting does bring models to life.

Didn't they say at one point that they were stuck with the limitations of IL2 lighting as it was, I wonder if Oleg has provided some updates. Maybe this is Beta BOB code.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 09:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Heini von Seppel:
Joy of joys the Halberstadt CLII !

Will this be flyable, please?
at the moment its planned as non flyable, but who knows ;\)

Quote:
Originally posted by Capitaine Haddock:
Is that real-time ambient occlussion? Blimey... now that would be trully impressive.
yes it real time on new render

Quote:
Originally posted by Mogster:
As the GT team say complex lighting does bring models to life.

Didn't they say at one point that they were stuck with the limitations of IL2 lighting as it was, I wonder if Oleg has provided some updates. Maybe this is Beta BOB code.
We have some limitations for sure, but we havent say anything detailed about what and where \:\)
Also, this code have noting related to BOB - its wrote from scratch by GT programmers for Knights project.
Posted By: tankeriv

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 10:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tankeriv:
Looks superb.

What company will do the publishing btw?

UBI? EA?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 10:58 PM

Hmmm, you know, I was expecting self shadowing, must have misread that bit. As for the reflections, all very nice in the right places, but with skins that are designed to look like they haven't been cleaned for a few months how much are they really going to reflect? It just looks plain wrong to me.

Dano.
Posted By: IceFire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mogster:
As the GT team say complex lighting does bring models to life.

Didn't they say at one point that they were stuck with the limitations of IL2 lighting as it was, I wonder if Oleg has provided some updates. Maybe this is Beta BOB code.
Are we sure that they are using the IL-2 engine. The development shots we're been shown seem to have much more in commmon with Battle of Britain's engine than with IL-2's. I guess we'll see when the screen shots come along.

I suspect that either way we're in for a vastly improved experience visually over the current generation. Thats pretty cool I must say.
Posted By: IceFire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/02/06 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by II./JG1_Pritzl:
Am I the only one who prefers the synthesized sounds? Authentic wave files are all fine and dandy for nostalgia's sake, but I find the doppler effect in the IL-2 engine, the true 3D'dness of the sound and the attenuated external sounds while in cockpit far more immersive.
I mostly agree with you. I think there is some promise is continuing with the synth sounds...but they need to be alot better and far more authentic. I think they used to be better than they are now...I guess like the FM its being stretched with all of the different types of engines and aircraft and that sort of thing.

But none of the aircraft sound much at all like their real life counter parts. They conform to sound physics but they don't sound real. The step will be to blur the two so most people don't notice.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 07:53 AM

Nobody regularly wiped and cleaned those planes?

Please! That's part of maintenance.
Posted By: II./JG1_Pritzl

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 09:05 AM

Sensei, I value your opinion, but on this one I think we'll have to differ. Perhaps because I rarely get sound idiosyncracies such as you describe? (though they are very annoying when they do occur)

I also recall Oleg giving some sound-cynic a chance to play the game at Maddox HQ and, according to the cynic, the sound was much better there. Wonder what settings/hardware Oleg was using?
Posted By: II./JG1_Pritzl

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 09:11 AM

@Icefire, glad I'm not the only one who thinks synthesized sounds are a step in the right direction. Yes, the quality can be improved, particularly the occasional bugs with, as Sensei put it, hearing MG fire from across the map. OTOH, when the current system works, I find it much more 'alive' than your average pre-packaged wave files.

For example, run a flak mission and note the variance in flak noise depending on proximity and whether shrapnel hits you or not. I find it bloody amazing to see but not hear the distant puffs, delay-hear the closer ones and half-jump out of my seat when one hits too close for comfort.

Similarly, while not picture-perfect, (read: needs a lot more work) I find the variation in the sound of your engines as you turn your head in the cockpit very interesting and a great aid to immersion.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 10:25 AM

...this code have noting related to BOB - its wrote from scratch by GT programmers for Knights project

Very interesting VikS thanks for the tech demo

Very beautiful work and the shadowing is hyper-realistic and sympathetic, chiaroscuro molto bene, premier cru. Your graphics programmer is the El Greco of er, Spain? \:\)

I am looking forward very much to seeing your terrain and weather system. The objects are important players in the drama but the main player is the world in there. Or the planes look like the models not the planes...

Imagine these objects in Microsoft-space I mean. Blurry textures, pizza down there. I think it will be ok though if building on Maddox work \:\)

More chrome! \:\)

Ming
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 01:21 PM

Whoa, I guess all my yadda-yadda about reflections and surface textures etc. was playing right into this new up-date, wasn't it? ;\)

Chiaroscuro eh Ming? Oh you impress me evermore for each day... I personally hope for a Bruegel the elder snow landscape look of the sim terrain, something like http://www.oldmasterpiece.com/painting-en_2007.html

True that the wing surfaces seem a bit too slippery, but that is just a question of tweaking effects, i guess. I really like the "live" play of light and reflections along the body, when viewed from behind, that will make it so much more realistic to be on someone's six o'clock.
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 02:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by IceFire:
Quote:
Originally posted by II./JG1_Pritzl:
Am I the only one who prefers the synthesized sounds? Authentic wave files are all fine and dandy for nostalgia's sake, but I find the doppler effect in the IL-2 engine, the true 3D'dness of the sound and the attenuated external sounds while in cockpit far more immersive.
I mostly agree with you. I think there is some promise is continuing with the synth sounds...but they need to be alot better and far more authentic. I think they used to be better than they are now...I guess like the FM its being stretched with all of the different types of engines and aircraft and that sort of thing.

But none of the aircraft sound much at all like their real life counter parts. They conform to sound physics but they don't sound real. The step will be to blur the two so most people don't notice.
Yes, the problem is that they don't sound like the real aircraft. When you compare real recordings to Olegs synth sounds they have no 'soul' Surely making your sound engine correct physics wise is pointless if the resulting audio doesn't sound anything like the real aircraft. So my Merlin engined Hurricane sounds like a lawnmower, but its OK as the lawnmower sound follows the laws of sound physics in an enclosed space very precisely :rolleyes:

If anyones interested I have an Audigy 2 with Logi Z5300 speakers. All other games sound fantastic, Il2 sounds as carp now as it did in the early beta stage. Oleg must do better for BOB.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 06:58 PM

Hey, did nobody see that movie?? - It really thrilled me to see an Il-2FB-quality WWI fighter in gorgeous 3D! - Can't wait to see them fly over a real terrain!

Tell me VIKS, are you able to import these models into the FB game engine? Have you flown a bit yet?
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 07:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:

Tell me VIKS, are you able to import these models into the FB game engine? Have you flown a bit yet?
negative, cause we dont need to do it, it will took our time, time which one is a lack for us at the moment.
And dont forget - we will have our own new FM to fly these birds ;\)
Posted By: F19_Klunk

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 07:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
Chiaroscuro eh Ming? Oh you impress me evermore for each day... I personally hope for a Bruegel the elder snow landscape look of the sim terrain, something like http://www.oldmasterpiece.com/painting-en_2007.html
[/QB]
Well I too really hope for a "dirty look" with snow rot (Maybe just a Swedish expression?) that is snow with a lot of melted water and dirt in making it look brownish/greyish...
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 08:16 PM

You know the Eskimos have 16 words for snow, including rotten snow and maybe yellow snow too.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 08:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by II./JG1_Pritzl:
Am I the only one who prefers the synthesized sounds? Authentic wave files are all fine and dandy for nostalgia's sake, but I find the doppler effect in the IL-2 engine, the true 3D'dness of the sound and the attenuated external sounds while in cockpit far more immersive.
We do have people who expect inside the cockpit to sound like standing outside the cockpit.

Something in the sound engine does seem to lose track of where other external objects are. Hearing guns close when there are none close is an immersion killer often from spawn onwards.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 08:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
Chiaroscuro eh Ming? Oh you impress me evermore for each day... I personally hope for a Bruegel the elder snow landscape look of the sim terrain, something like http://www.oldmasterpiece.com/painting-en_2007.html
Well I too really hope for a "dirty look" with snow rot (Maybe just a Swedish expression?) that is snow with a lot of melted water and dirt in making it look brownish/greyish... [/QB]
Yup, that is the look I'd like over the trenches. Il-2FB looks a bit too crisp, clean and dandy down below, it would be fantastic to have a more gritty, muddy messy front line and landscape.

VIKS, thx for your heads-up, I'm sure you guys are busy! And I'm grateful for that!

I so much hope for a big succes for this sim and i will do what I can to make it happen! (I do flight-sim reviews in Denmark's biggest aviation magazine, and have done my bit to promote this genre, hope I will get the chance to do it for you too, your effort certainly seems worth it!)
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 08:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
VIKS, thx for your heads-up, I'm sure you guys are busy! And grateful! I so much hope for a big succes for this sim and i will do what I can to make it happen! (I do flight-sim reviews in Denmark's biggest aviation magazine, and have done my bit to peromote this genre, hope I will get the chance to do it for you too, your effort certainly seems worth it!)
rgr, its kinda too early to make articles (cause we arent sure enough yet about all futures to included into release) but just drop me an e-mail if you will need a better resolution pictures (if you will make this article) \:\)
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/03/06 09:01 PM

I'll do an article - a review - when the sim comes out, nothing before then...
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/04/06 12:26 AM

We do have people who expect inside the cockpit to sound like standing outside the cockpit

My name is Ming. No it's not. Yes it is. Hang about I'm having a crisis of identity I knew I should have called myself Charlton. Chuck. Spartacus hmmm \:\)

Yes Neal I have to own up to wanting to hear the Merlin as if I was hearing it from somewhere close to the plane - rather than have the current and correct 'engine sound heard through a flying helmet'

Or a choice even?

'Authentic simulation of sounds heard by the human ear when the human ear is enveloped by a flying helmet and earplugs. All these materials have been cleared for extensive human use by the Safety Committee of the European Economic Community including the rubber bung'

or-

'Full-on Merlin as used by Cecil B De Mille in those really good war movies where the whole cinema shakes and the ice-cream girl starts giving you funny looks. Real sub-woofer scrotum-tightening throbbing bass notes down to 20Hz. Check that flyby in tracks. Hurts doesn't it...'

Hmm what to pick \:\)

It's not too difficult to implement for a programmer, just take off the FlyingHelmet filter and bingo. You run out of helmets \:\)

One can have too much realism mate. This is called gameplay.

Do you honestly think that a real WW2 warbird pilot would not prefer to hear his engine as we could if Oleg removes his digit-al filters? (might get away with it) \:\)

Or would he maybe like us choose a more Godlike perspective so he or she could extract the maximum goodness from her throaty roar and grumbles? Get Miss Shilling in someone \:\)

No one wants to hear a jet engine for real we'd have severe hearing loss after one minute and maybe the Concorde flight desk would have just a hiss - but these warbird engines and their truly glorious sounds should be there for us. We are here for them after all...

Ming
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/04/06 07:31 PM

Agreed Ming.

There's a few areas of flight sims where 100% realism isn't desirable, sound is one of them. This issue also got turned over in the development of Lock On. Apparently in a modern jet fighter once you've got your helmet on and the cockpits closed your own engine is barely audible. The dev's decided to add engine noise. Its not 100% realistic but flying along in a PC sim without any sound isn't very immersive.

Sound is one area where I actually prefer the CFS series to IL2, a bit of Hollywood isn't always a bad thing. When I'm pretending to fly Mr Mitchell's masterpiece I want to hear big beefy sounds thundering from my speakers, sounds that stir my soul, sounds so beautiful that I'm almost moved to tears. Nothing else will do.
Posted By: Sulky Boy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/05/06 01:55 AM

I love a Double Wasp or Merlin, in the morning, and can enjoy that drowning out all other bar radio. Thats reality.
In a flight sim, however, sound has to deliver all tactile inputs (vibrations, impacts, stick n rudder feel etc). IMHO its an area where full realism detracts.
Surely the synth can sample a real Merlin or Thor's Anvil, though. I hope thats the route Vik and Co are following. Got my fingers crossed.
Posted By: Stearman

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/05/06 11:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ming_EAF19:
Oleg is using 'synthesised sounds' for the engines I think Stearman

Are you saying that the WW1 project Forgotten Housebricks will be using wavefiles or some sort of real recordings of the planes' engines?

Very happy to hear that if so, thanks!

Ming
Those sounds are not synthesised!! We´ve recorded some original Daimler DIIIa sounds! This engine was build 25.11.1917! And we recorded its sound 87 years after its first run in 1917. \:D

http://www.biplanes.de/show_sonstige_fokker_d7_uebersicht.shtml

Stearman
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/06/06 01:05 AM

fascinating stuff Stearman, what a funky old sound!
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/06/06 05:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ming_EAF19:

Do you honestly think that a real WW2 warbird pilot would not prefer to hear his engine as we could if Oleg removes his digit-al filters? (might get away with it) \:\)

Ming [/QB]
I can tell that you haven't spent hours sitting behind the engine and prop of a small plane, at least without the headphones on.

Really. After a while it gets old, tired, and very annoying hearing all that noise. Maybe that first hour you can keep up the sheer wonderful feeling but man-oh-man 800 miles in a car with an unfixable squeak (we think it's somewhere around the back seat but nothing we do stops it...) is serenity compared!

For gaming purposes though I think two words can put the whole thing right.

Realism Toggle.

Just because the realism toggle is on, btw, don't mean 100% real. Just more real.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/06/06 09:37 AM

Yeah, thanks to Jens (Stearman? \:\) ) that he let us to use his recordings as base for our Mersedes family engine sounds!
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/06/06 11:03 AM

Do you honestly think that a real WW2 warbird pilot would not prefer to hear his engine as we could

...is what I actually said Neal

I can tell that you haven't spent hours sitting behind the engine and prop of a small plane, at least without the headphones on

You said this and you are right but you reply as if I suggested that we turn our amplifiers up until we're deafened. I said quite the opposite of what you skimmed mate \:\)

Really. After a while it gets old, tired, and very annoying hearing all that noise

Pardon \:\)

You're saying that in a real plane I would prefer to wear the earplugs and headphones

Well of course I would mate. Fairly obvious \:\)

"[a WW2 pilot would] prefer to hear his engine as we could..." I said

In an armchair with beer and a fantastic sound system and a volume control? Course they would.

Ming
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/06/06 11:47 AM

This is game. Being a game we can have the best of both worlds, the good stuff without the irritation.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be for GT WW1, I don't like dragging it off topic like this.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/06/06 12:27 PM

Hey, what did you think of the Oscars Mogster? ;\)
Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/06/06 02:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by II./JG1_Pritzl:
Sensei, I value your opinion, but on this one I think we'll have to differ. Perhaps because I rarely get sound idiosyncracies such as you describe? (though they are very annoying when they do occur)

I also recall Oleg giving some sound-cynic a chance to play the game at Maddox HQ and, according to the cynic, the sound was much better there. Wonder what settings/hardware Oleg was using?
I don't know what they use either (most likely Creative/Audigy and a bad implemntation of EAX support), but I often use my sound equipment for recording and editing anything from studio music to natural anumals (do video editing as well at times). The sound cards in my computer only have one upgrade and that would require a Mac G5 and about another $5K in equipment (and most likely having to build my own sound studio to house it.)

The bugs are annoying but the immersion killers are the supposed features. Specifically:

1) In multi-engine aircraft the dual sound of the engines is often merged into one distinct sound, muted especially at the bass level. Until you select the individual engines and adjust throttle, then the bass levels kick in. It isn't a sound card or driver issue as the game isn't producing that sound until the throttles are adjusted.

2) The 3D engine will render some sounds lower when it thinks other sounds should override. Most glaring examples are firing the guns...the engine sound is turned down. That's wrong. It's arcadish. I've actually flown a B-25, nothing overrides the sound of those engines. the artificial dampening is just that, artificial and I'm willing to bet it's because the sound engine can't render primary sounds simultaneously.

3) 3D positional sound (in reference to your amazement at the flak bursts) have been done very well--and better--in many games. B-17 the Mighty Eighth, IMHO, did it much better soundwise. Microsoft's FS9 renders sound so much better and richer than IL2.

In fact, I do believe their sound engine gets the Doppler effect wrong. It's right to a point and then suddenly shoots off the scale to either nothing or some abmormally high value. I'm almost willing to bet the variable they are using to hold the value is being overflowed and a high value integer is getting its sign reversed when they exceed it's value.

4) You can still hear other aircraft around you, even in pit with 2000HP engine screaming in front of you. If he fires his guns you hear them too--not the sound of bullets hitting you--but the actual gunfire. Everytime I hear that the whole immersion illusion just collapses for me.

5) The single biggest frame rate killer in the game is sound, well, maybe the new water settings might win out, but sound is still a major player. Try setting up a mission with 8 aircraft on a carrier top and watch fps. Run it a few seconds as they start their engines. Do it again with sound off and watch the difference.

It's even worse if you happen to have other aircraft flying above and behind you out of visual range but within the idiotic range the sound engine thinks you should be able to hear them--which you shouldn't once your engine starts. It's just bad design and coding. I've never had a game of any genre have sound drag down a system so much. Sound usually has it's own hardware to run on (on board excluded here) and should not impact performance at all much less to the the extent it does in this game. Why is it most people have to turn DirectX sound down to get crashes, lockups and stuttering diminshed? That's just wrong.

It's almost as if their engine thinks that at any point on the map you have some possibility of hearing a sound and then tries to do all the calculations to determine how little or how much you should hear if you were standing there. That may be true IF I were standing on a quiet meadow in the country. I'm not, I'm generally parked right behind or in between two huge, loud, engines. Anything beyond my wingtips is pretty much drowned out. They could save processing power by limiting the calculations needed (it's bugs in these calculations that I think account for the odd hearing of gunfire from across the map.)

I find the sound in this game, like a lot of the canned missions it ships with, to be poor, empty, lifeless, souless and lacking. It's cold and unimaginative.

Comparison for you. I have Rowans' BoB II. It sucks. Crashes all the time on me so as to be unplayable. Sound is mediocre. I prefer the sound in it over the sound in IL2. Hands down.

The only modern game I found to be worse in terms of aircraft engine sound is (before Starforce decided to begin erroring out and rendering it a useless coaster) Silent Hunter III. The aircraft sounds in there are abysmal.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/06/06 04:26 PM

Possibly your #1 is a try at simulating the prop beat frequency? In the prop planes I've been in so far, the prop has always been louder than the engine itself at least from inside. And multi's are the worst due to the prop sound waves interference patterns, the beat frequency you try to adjust down cause you'll never get rid of it totally.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/06/06 04:37 PM

Sorry Ming but I was thinking of it from the pilots perspective, not game players. Yes, WE can turn things down. Also I am sure that even the most ear weary pilot wants to hear the engine very much as opposed to no sound for the single obvious reason that no sound means engine has stopped. he even wants to hear the sound of the engine to detect any changes that might mean trouble before the actual trouble. But no way that racket you hear outside is desireable inside except with lots of muting.

It's the same way I like little kids but the noise alone just burns me out.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/09/06 04:34 PM

Time to tighten the goggles and flight cap on real tight for this update guys.........



We're talking "back to the future" with this excellence!!!



These cockpit details are magnifcent.....check out the exactitude of the air/fuel mixture quadrant, and the oil pulsator, to mention just a few of the pit's goodies!

Textures are now reflecting actual scans of wood and the like......bravo GT!!!
Posted By: PE_Tigar

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/09/06 05:04 PM

I read that as "back to furniture" \:D --the time when a good lacquer was essential for flying!
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/09/06 05:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PE_Tigar:
I read that as "back to furniture" \:D --the time when a good lacquer was essential for flying!
Nothing better than a good butt...er....buff shine! \:D
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/09/06 06:07 PM

As a service to the community, here's the link to the new update:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1906&sid=c3325db7788643a6b6054618d0873e99

Looking just fabulous, but the tension is rising: will there be a wicker seat in another cockpit? ta-da-da-dahhhh, ta-da-da-daahhhh...
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/09/06 06:09 PM

BTW, with all those bracing wires and struts and whatnot, I think 6DOF will really be essential to this sim. I guess I'll have to splurge on that, when the time comes...
Posted By: Double_Tap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/09/06 09:42 PM

No comfy cushions?...**GASP!***.... War is hell!
Posted By: II./JG1_Pritzl

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/09/06 10:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:
1) In multi-engine aircraft the dual sound of the engines is often merged into one distinct sound, muted especially at the bass level. Until you select the individual engines and adjust throttle, then the bass levels kick in. It isn't a sound card or driver issue as the game isn't producing that sound until the throttles are adjusted.
Never experienced that...
Quote:
2) The 3D engine will render some sounds lower when it thinks other sounds should override. Most glaring examples are firing the guns...the engine sound is turned down. That's wrong. It's arcadish. I've actually flown a B-25, nothing overrides the sound of those engines. the artificial dampening is just that, artificial and I'm willing to bet it's because the sound engine can't render primary sounds simultaneously.
nor this...
Quote:
4) You can still hear other aircraft around you, even in pit with 2000HP engine screaming in front of you. If he fires his guns you hear them too--not the sound of bullets hitting you--but the actual gunfire. Everytime I hear that the whole immersion illusion just collapses for me.
and I don't have this - any more.
Quote:
5) The single biggest frame rate killer in the game is sound, well, maybe the new water settings might win out, but sound is still a major player. Try setting up a mission with 8 aircraft on a carrier top and watch fps. Run it a few seconds as they start their engines. Do it again with sound off and watch the difference.
This may be true, but the game is still playable on my antiquated rig so I'm not too concerned.

Now, I actually have a low end Audigy MP3+ card, EAX turned off. When it's on I get really weird happenings like my microphone automatically getting reduced in volume, TS getting reverb and a 'tinniness' to the in-game sounds. The only issue that remains for me is the occasional from-across-the-map gunfire sounds.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 02:29 AM

Those planes are just so, sniff, give me a second-beautiful, I can't, I mean, no I can't talk about it.

I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE !!!

WHEN DO WE GET TO FLY THESE CRATES!!!



Copterdrvr
Posted By: ArgonV

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 03:04 AM

Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 12:15 PM

From the discussion in the Camel vid thread It seems that WW1 rotary engined aircraft didn't have a true throttle just an on off magneto switch. Will this feature of old rotaries be modelled in KOTS? It could be a difficultly option I suppose.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 12:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mogster:
From the discussion in the Camel vid thread It seems that WW1 rotary engined aircraft didn't have a true throttle just an on off magneto switch. Will this feature of old rotaries be modelled in KOTS? It could be a difficultly option I suppose.
Actually it is not quite true.

On such rotaryes as Crerget, LeRhone (Oberursel) Bentley - there was throttle (air flow into carburettor) and mixture (fuel flow into carburettor) levers.

BUT there also was Gnome engine, wich had NO carburettor at all, imagine that \:\)
It had spray-tube inside air tube, so fuel-air mass mas mixed "as is" and sucked into the engine. Gnome actually had "fixed" position throttle - reostat, which one where setted up to interrup magnetto in the way to 25%-50%-75%-100%, so actually at the position 25% there was only 2x cylinders have ignition on them (i can be incorrect in the number of cylinders - cant remember it at the moment).
The fuel control was only on and off.

Both of types have blip button - ignition interrupter. It was implemented due to high idle RPM`s of rotaryes ~600-700 of 1100-1300 max (~50% of power/thrust) to make easyer such stages as taxing/landing to put lower thrust by ignition interrupt.

Cant say for 100% about how we will make it at the moment, but we will try to;) no promisses
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 12:33 PM

Mogster,

I'm going to paste here part of a posting I wrote recently about rotary engine "myths" in a reply to a similar question about this engine-type on the WWI Aerodrome fan forum (starts with gyroscopic precession and moves to engine management):

"First, all reciprocating engines that rotate a crankshaft/flywheel/and/or their outer casing (as with inline and rotary aircraft engines) produce "torque". You car engine produces torque, an electric motor produces torque, even the rubber band power for a balsa model airplane produces torque, however, torque is not the same as gyroscopic precession.

Therefore there are specific and different forces involved when talk turns to engine "torque", and when people start to talk of what was called "rotary torque" during WWI (that earlier term is a poor and confusing description, and probably why prolonged confusion continues). Rotary torque describes gyroscopic precession, which is a force that is encountered (felt) when a spinning mass is rotating in one plane, and an external force attempts to move it out of it's rotating axis of motion (outside it present rotating plane). Torque is a constant force when motive power is spinning, but gyroscopic precession is only experienced when changes in direction of its axis of rotation are changed, otherwise it's generally not even perceived.

Secondly, except for a few rotary engine types (primarily of the Gnome design), there were rotary engine controls that allowed for a degree of speed modulation, and this was done through the fuel/air mixture lever(s). Many (most) rotary engines could reduce their output rpms to from 50-75% of maximum by adjusting the mixture control levers, and this was neccessary for maintaining formation in multi-aircraft flights during WWI. Now of course the blip (coupe) button was used for quick ignition cut-off for temporary speed modulation (usually for no more than around 5 seconds max. at a time), but for sustained speed adjustments when rotary-powered aircraft were trying to maintain station in formation (for example), the mixture levers were used.

Therefore, to be authentic to the rotary-powered engined aircraft, GT will have to model not only the blip button, but also the mixture adjustment levers. On top of that, mixture had to be adjusted with altitiude change (when air density changed). So although the rotary power plants were more "tractable" that many think, there were other complications that required constant pilot attention. Who knows if all these engine management issues will be part of GT's sim, but as a baseline for understanding, lets throw out this term "rotary torque", and speak in terms of what the force is called: "gyroscopic precession".

Btw, props also produce gyroscopic precession, as do lots of spinning engine parts, and even in inline engines do too, it's just that the degree of force is not generally noticed by a pilot (as it was with the spinning mass on a rotary-powered aircraft engine)."

Hopefully, that ought to help Mogster with understanding some of the peculiar engine issues (and myths) surrounding the rotary's management and flignt effects. \:\)
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 12:35 PM

Damn VikS, beat me by a minute to post! \:D
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 12:50 PM

The rotary engine on the Camel represented about 1/3 of the total weight, so that is quite a big percentage of aircraft weight to have rotating quickly!
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 01:07 PM

Thanks for the reply's XW and Viks \:\)

So there was a way of controlling the power output to some degree.

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
The rotary engine on the Camel represented about 1/3 of the total weight, so that is quite a big percentage of aircraft weight to have rotating quickly!
You can see that in the vid that someone posted yesterday. When the pilot throttles the engine after startup the aircraft bounces quite visibly.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 01:30 PM

Yes, "rocking in the chocks" is caused by engine torque, the same thing that can cause "sway" on take-off for any prop-powered aircraft.

Gyroscopic precession is a force that expresses itself 90 degrees along the direction of the engine/prop's rotation from an intended (inputted) control change.

Gyro is what the rotary engine's weight/mass imparted to the Camel's handling characteristics when a change of direction was intended, otherwise the rotary engine is just sitting there spinning smoothly at the plane's end. It's when the pilot of a rotary-powered aircraft inputs a direction change that the effects of gyroscopic precession are encountered. \:\)
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 01:52 PM

Btw, =FB=LOFT just posted an "old WIP render" of the Nieuport's cockpit on the GT forum showing some of the shadowing effects they've been working with:

Posted By: Ivan Putski

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 05:54 PM

The level of detail in these photos is just fantastic, this will be a must have sim.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 07:00 PM

FB_Loft mentioned on the gennadich forum that they thought they'd be ready to show in-game screenies by March... - looking forward to them!
Posted By: Rudi Jaeger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 07:23 PM

Those screens are just awesome! Wonderful to have this sim on the horizon. Many thanks to the developers for their continuing efforts. Cheers!
Posted By: shyrsio

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 08:29 PM

I've no dubts on the detail of the models i see but i want to see some IL-2 engine rendered shots not only 3D max renders. those would give us a better idea of what the game would look like.
Anyway, hell of a goods job boys!!
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 10:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
FB_Loft mentioned on the gennadich forum that they thought they'd be ready to show in-game screenies by March... - looking forward to them!
not in-game but on game-engine ;\)

Quote:
Originally posted by shyrsio:
I've no dubts on the detail of the models i see but i want to see some IL-2 engine rendered shots not only 3D max renders. those would give us a better idea of what the game would look like.
Anyway, hell of a goods job boys!!
have you guys saw our promo movie1?
and also - it shows our own render - not IL2`s ;\)
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/10/06 10:38 PM

Gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme a flying demo-please!!!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 12:46 AM

Self-shadowing and soft shadows that is so wonderful if it is really like this in the sim VikS. It will be very big step forward in realtime rendering. I will believe it when I see it- but I am already half-convinced. I want to believe it very much, this helps maintain the fantasy. Or not \:\)

What copter said yes but I'll settle for a small ingame-rendered movie \:\)

6DOF and all that? Crikey.

Ming
Posted By: Kamikuza

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 01:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by copterdrvr:
Gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme a flying demo-please!!!

Copterdrvr
Ditto \:\)
Posted By: FltLt HardBall

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 03:06 AM

Is that a trim wheel in the Nieuport, or is that where they put le hamsteurs?
Posted By: fearlesslds

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 03:48 AM

When does this game come out. Is there an English langauge website for this.
Posted By: fearlesslds

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 04:08 AM

Found Gen in english but couldn't find in game screens mentioned above.
Posted By: Double_Tap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 05:13 AM

Quote:
Is that a trim wheel in the Nieuport, or is that where they put le hamsteurs?
Yes, it is an early form of WEP. When you want to engage it you release a male hamster behind the female. Unfortunately it is one-use only.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 09:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FltLt HardBall:
Is that a trim wheel in the Nieuport, or is that where they put le hamsteurs?
It's le ammo belt take-up spool (where the spent web belt winds up after you've shot up all le hamsteurs). \:D \:D \:D

Try this link fearlesslds to GT's "Knights" forum:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=37
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 11:23 AM

No trim on the fighters at least! No flaps, no retracting gear, no button - button - key - key - button - stagger - stagger - roll.

I'm trying to remember back to 1970-72 here so hey it's a question: wasn't part of the true Camel snap turn maneuver a change in engine power? Also to turn the other way it wasn't nearly so good, I remember that for sure.

I guess if the torque is in the ballpark then such things could be tested in the sim.

Viks! Please! Include tracks on the CD's and with patches to show the planes flown correctly and fought correctly. You must be able to get tracks from betas yes? When Oleg did that showing not only Gotha but attacks on bombers not getting shot up, I liked that very much. And just perhaps what is done in the tracks will speak volumes what can be done. What is the speed? Check the official track, there is the speed. Simple.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 12:04 PM

Neal, there were elevation trim wheels/levers mounted on a number of British aircraft.....for a version of the Sopwith Pup, on the Tripehound, the Snipe, the SE5A, the Biff, the Harry Tate, and the DH4 & 9 all come to mind.

Again, torque didn't give the Camel its rotary turn....gyroscopic precession did (read above).

Camel pilots maneuvered in combat at full power (usually). ;\)
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
Viks! Please! Include tracks on the CD's and with patches to show the planes flown correctly and fought correctly. You must be able to get tracks from betas yes? When Oleg did that showing not only Gotha but attacks on bombers not getting shot up, I liked that very much. And just perhaps what is done in the tracks will speak volumes what can be done. What is the speed? Check the official track, there is the speed. Simple.
Training course (tracks) for pilot is actually my direct part of job to be done ;\)
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 12:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
Neal, there were elevation trim wheels/levers mounted on a number of British aircraft.....for a version of the Sopwith Pup, on the Tripehound, the Snipe, the SE5A, the Biff, the Harry Tate, and the DH4 & 9 all come to mind.
PS: you forget about Breguet 14 automatic flaps (which actually where fitted on most B2 versions) \:\)
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
PS: you forget about Breguet 14 automatic flaps (which actually where fitted on most B2 versions) \:\)
That's too cool VikS!

Btw, can you tell us if the Breguet 14 A2/B2 will be included in the game?
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 03:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:

Btw, can you tell us if the Breguet 14 A2/B2 will be included in the game?
you know i cant, cause then more and more hamsters gonna suffer \:D
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 03:10 PM

Hampster Killer!!!
Posted By: Mangrove

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 04:13 PM

Oh, I would like to see this skin on Breguet 14. The plane belonged to Finnish Air Force and the photo was taken circa 1925.

Finnish Breguets took part of war against newly founded USSR in 1919.

Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:

Btw, can you tell us if the Breguet 14 A2/B2 will be included in the game?
you know i cant, cause then more and more hamsters gonna suffer \:D
Hey, you guys are carrying over stuff from the Gennadich forum, that's not allowed! ;\)
Posted By: Rama

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 08:42 PM

If you intend to model the Breguet XIV, I could provide as many pictures as needed... and some more information.

A replica was built by a member of my aeroclub (following original constructor plans, as much as possible, with some adaptation like break disks, in order to certify it for flying activities, meetings, etc...)

Here it is:


If you like, I can also interview the test pilot to have his flying experiment and his comments about the flight enveloppe.
Posted By: Mangrove

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 08:52 PM

Talking about pictures, I sent few months ago full set off cockpit photos to Viks from Finnish Breguet. Few examples:





Posted By: Rama

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 09:00 PM

Superb pictures Mangrove.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/11/06 09:34 PM

Looks like le Hampster is cornered now, and with this latest info from Mangrove and Rama.....well le Cat is out of the bag too! ;\)
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/12/06 01:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rama:
If you intend to model the Breguet XIV, I could provide as many pictures as needed... and some more information.

A replica was built by a member of my aeroclub (following original constructor plans, as much as possible, with some adaptation like break disks, in order to certify it for flying activities, meetings, etc...)

----------

If you like, I can also interview the test pilot to have his flying experiment and his comments about the flight enveloppe.
YES PLEASE!!! Pls check you PM.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/12/06 01:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mangrove:
Talking about pictures, I sent few months ago full set off cockpit photos to Viks from Finnish Breguet. Few examples:
[/IMG]
and i whanna say thank you again Martti for that!
Especially for the ones which you make for us with scale object on photo for instruments - its actually alreaddy helped not only for Breguet. ;\)
Posted By: fearlesslds

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/12/06 03:33 AM

Anyone have any word on the progress of this game?
Posted By: Double_Tap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/12/06 06:01 AM

Fearlesslds,

If you read this thread and check the dates you will get a good idea of the progress. I don't know when it will be released but it will be many months down the track.

Viks is giving us the good oil and I am sure we will have plenty of warning.

I see there is talk of a new forum at Sim HQ but I hope they don't do it till we approach beta, or we will just talk ourselves into a lather of sweat and get nowhere.

The best thing to do is check the updates every Thursday and take lots of valium. ;\)

~E!~
D_T
Posted By: Mangrove

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/12/06 07:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
Especially for the ones which you make for us with scale object on photo for instruments - its actually alreaddy helped not only for Breguet.
Good to hear that VikS!
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/12/06 01:46 PM

Can this topic be made sticky please, pretty please, maybe
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/12/06 02:12 PM

At least a sticky, but I'm really hoping for a dedicated forum.

The helicopter sim Wings over Vietnam has it's own forum and despite the fact that I'm very anxious to see WOV go gold, there is obviously more support for this WW1 sim.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/12/06 03:32 PM

A sticky's OK for now. Besides people will probably post in here about it anyhow, remember the seperate PF and FB forums.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/12/06 04:09 PM

Don't think a sticky is needed, with all the traffic this thread has proved to generate over the last months. It is always on page one or two.

All those stickies at the top annoy me a bit, they take up place for the main content of this forum, the threads.

(And yes mods, that is actually an invitation to "unstick" my stickie, which hasn't seen traffic for a long while!)
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/12/06 04:28 PM

I agree with Freycinet that we'll keep this thread active, and especially so since GT is so active with their weekly updates that we enjoy discussing here......and that VikS comes here specifically to answer our questions too!

There's always GT's forum for directing additional development questions and comments on also.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/13/06 02:59 PM

I don't like it when it's not on the first page so


there! \:\)

Copterdrvr
Posted By: jeanba

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/13/06 04:51 PM

If the Breguet is flyable, I will buy this flightsim as soon as available !!!
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/13/06 10:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
Viks! Please! Include tracks on the CD's and with patches to show the planes flown correctly and fought correctly. You must be able to get tracks from betas yes? When Oleg did that showing not only Gotha but attacks on bombers not getting shot up, I liked that very much. And just perhaps what is done in the tracks will speak volumes what can be done. What is the speed? Check the official track, there is the speed. Simple.
Training course (tracks) for pilot is actually my direct part of job to be done ;\)
Sweet!

I suggest tracks for each with full speed, best climb, turn, and all as a way to forestall some of the whining, guessing and player 'tests' done wrong and then turned into 3 ring circus threads.

Probably save you more headache than me, but we both benefit if less of that... yes I am on UBI forum and feel bad for mistreatment of team and Oleg. I feel because writing code for $ was a big part of my life and I've taken lots of that kind of abuse too. Nobody knows how hard or long these things take but the ones who never did it are the ones with the most to say.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/13/06 11:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
Neal, there were elevation trim wheels/levers mounted on a number of British aircraft.....for a version of the Sopwith Pup, on the Tripehound, the Snipe, the SE5A, the Biff, the Harry Tate, and the DH4 & 9 all come to mind.

Again, torque didn't give the Camel its rotary turn....gyroscopic precession did (read above).

Camel pilots maneuvered in combat at full power (usually). ;\)
Simply that the gyroscopic precession is a torque effect. Please whatever you are saying is for me and many just a matter of syntax. I both can and cannot appreciate the higher precision of the correct name of the effect itself but when you get down to it the only time to bring up the difference is when someone tries to pull wrong/bad results.
AFAICT you can't have one without the other, but you can have the other without the one... torque does not always mean precession, you have to swing the spin axis to get precession and like that which when it comes to labels is picking.
Now if you have people mixing up p-factor with gyro or torque effects then that's another kind of horse.

What did those WWI planes do for trim? There's a few ways I could guess at like actually vary the tension of the rigging to changing a pivot point in a control crank. I've never heard of trim tabs on those machines but then I don't know all the bits.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/13/06 11:13 PM

Very true!

Oleg would have saved himself so much grief, if he had just included tracks of flying the major planes correctly. A track with take off commented, correct climbing, commented changes of supercharger and mixture settings, commented WEP, etc. Just a few tracks with texts and voilà.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/14/06 01:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
AFAICT you can't have one without the other, but you can have the other without the one... torque does not always mean precession.....
Exactly right Neal! \:\)

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
What did those WWI planes do for trim?
Well pitch "trim" was accomplished by changing the horizontal stabilizer's angle of incidence by means of a cockpit wheel connected thru cables to a vertical "screw", or by a pilot lever connected by cables to a series of stabilizer pivot links.

Here's two examples, the first being for the Sopwith Triplane (typical Sopwith mechanism):



The second showing the Biff's mechanism (Bristol F.2B):



(hey, just tryin' to keep the thread on the front page......for Copterdrvr) ;\)
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/14/06 02:45 AM

Thanks Dude. ;\) But hey, great info-where did you find those cool illustrations?

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/14/06 05:58 AM

TKS FlyXwire. I like the diags. Could whole models be built from the whole set? If so then what's the source!

Just rigging those things was an art claimed lost once. At least I think that at Old Rhinebeck they do rig the planes?

And then the stick was trim in the earlies if you take wing warping as trim. Thing is, you hadta hold it there.

IMO it's purer flying them WWI planes.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/14/06 08:05 AM

Hi,
just to complete any confusion left ...

Precession is what the vertical axis of e.g. a spinning top or gyro or the earth does when the axis tumbles. The bigger the angle the bigger the precession.

If you want to overcome the inertia of a fast rotating body you need more force than for the inertia of a still one (inertia along certain directions rises with rotation). Since the rotating engines of WW1 planes are not very long (=short axis), a plane like the pup or Camel is still able to do quick course changes.

However this has not much to do with the Camel's behaviour to go down in right, and up in left turns. The latter one derives from the added gyroscopic effect to the inertia, and the resulting torque, not precession.
The clockwise turning engine (in direction of flight) simply assists the plane when doing a right turn, in turning the whole plane to the right along its axis. If you want to turn to the left, the engine does not only not assist you, but you have to additionally overcome the engines torque, resulting in a rise, or a long rising turn, if not countered. Astonishing enough this was better modelled in RB "1" and in MS's flight sim #4 than in any other sims i know of.
There are certainly other things to regard, like propwash etc., and on the ground the axis' angle is greater than 0 in relation to movement ...
Greetings,
Catfish
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/14/06 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Narsinha:
The clockwise turning engine (in direction of flight) simply assists the plane when doing a right turn, in turning the whole plane to the right along its axis. If you want to turn to the left, the engine does not only not assist you, but you have to additionally overcome the engines torque, resulting in a rise, or a long rising turn, if not countered.
Well that does complete the confusion, because torque is transmitted in the opposite direction of the engine's rotation, and so will roll the aircraft to the left and not to the right (viewed from along the direction of flight).

I think it's time for all of us to start preparing ourselves for our initial solo flight in "Knights", and so I've quoted this passage below that nicely sums up some of the discussion we've been having these past few days on video clips, rotary blipping, engine torque, gyroscopic precession, and even airframe rigging (it's from the 1918 flight manual "Practical Flying"):

Sometimes during the last few hundred feet the pupil may use his engine the better to gauge his distance. In switching on and off, or, as it is commonly called, " blipping " an engine, either on the ground or in the air, the pilot will notice that the lateral balance of the machine is temporarily upset and that one wing will rise and fall as the engine is switched on and off. This is due to what is called the torque of the propeller. If the propeller revolves in a clockwise direction, judged from the pilot's seat, it creates an opposite turning movement of the machine, which will tend to revolve about its longitudinal axis in an anti-clockwise direction. Unless due allowance were made for this the machine would fly left wing down. But to compensate for the torque of the propeller more lift is given the left wing by increasing the incidence, or giving it what is called a "wash in." The greater lift allows the machine to fly laterally level, despite the propeller torque. When the engine is switched off for descending, the torque decreases, and so the left wing with the greater lift will tend to rise momentarily. When an engine is being "blipped" on the ground, the same sideways rock of the wings will be noticed. When the engine is on, the wing will drop, to rise again level as soon as the switch is off.

Hey enjoy the book guys, because you can also access it online! \:\)

http://www.warillustrated.com/practicalflying/
Posted By: Harry-the-Ruskie

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/14/06 12:50 PM

Did Gennadich mention what kind of copy protection they plan to use for this WW1 sim ??
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/14/06 02:00 PM

And as someone mentioned(correctly)earlier, the effect of the force applied to the rotating mass is felt 90 degrees after the input.

Take a helo for example. To make the a/c move forward, the rotor disk must be tilted forward. The pilots input through the cyclic is made on the left side of the helo. The resultant action takes place on the aft portion of the rotor disk causing it to tilt forward.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/14/06 02:16 PM

Yes FlyXwire my understanding is that if the prop turns clockwise from the pilot's POV then rolling left uses engine torque for extra turning-goodness: while rolling right you're fighting against engine torque trying to roll the aircraft left. This works even in mid-air \:\)

Ming
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/14/06 03:24 PM

Hello,
look ... the engine (turning) is based on the crankshaft (fixed), so if you accelerate the engine it will brace itself (or stem itself?) against the crankshaft, pushing this in the other direction (and thus rolling the plane to the opposite), as well it will react counterwise during a rapid deceleration (e.g. blipping).

However this is true for drastic revolution changes. This is what is described in the flight manual (Good link b.t.w.!).

As long as the engine runs with a fixed speed there is no torque to feel, you only have to fight the inertia during course changes.

And if you roll to the right without de- or accelerating, the engine supports it, taking the plane with it, and lowering your right wing, so the plane will lower the right wing, and make a banked right turn lowering the nose.

If you roll to the left you roll the plane including the crankshaft against the motion of the engine, which needs more power and will force the plane to raise its nose.

You can assist the plane by cutting the engine during a right turn, this will result in a very tight turn. Additionally you can give full power which will assist turning the plane to the left.
I think that's the way it works ...

Greetings,
Catfish
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/14/06 04:57 PM

Hey Narsinha,

Read sections 19.9.1 to 19.9.2:

http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/motion.html#@default1757

Here's the general link to John Denker's excellent See How It Flies web-based pilot's resource (I think you'll like this link too) \:\) :

http://www.av8n.com/how/
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/15/06 07:33 AM

Hello,
whoa, well i had to work my way through this, and still am. But i think he only talks about propellor torque (?), a rotating engine does generate more force. Apoart from the earth's gravitation (or better acceleration) there's the earth's own rotation (coriolis) which adds to the forces. And just for the "bump" of it.
Greetings,
Narsinha
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/15/06 07:59 AM

LOL.....yes, must add in the earth's rotation, and the gravitational pull too......or as you say it "where the ocean meets the sky". ;\)
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/15/06 10:17 AM

i think he only talks about propellor torque (?), a rotating engine does generate more force

There is only engine torque turning the transmission Narsinha, the mobile axle \:\) which turns the prop one way and the plane (mounted solidly to the engine) the opposite way. The prop is not solidly mounted to the plane it's free to rotate in its little highly-greased world. But constrained to one axis that moves around a bit like Hancock's gravy

The engine turns the prop and the prop turns the work done into friction acting on the atmosphere, leverage. Which shoves the plane in a counterwise angular direction of rotation to the propshaft's direction of rotation. Leverage is the thing. The propshaft is the transmission device from engine to propellor and the propellor is the transmission device from engine to atmospheric-leveraging

Hmmm wait a minute where does this leave four-wheeled vehicles with two wheels turning one way and two turning the other way. How do ground vehicles move then lol. Ah the motive horse is pulling in the velocity vector direction the wheels do no work they are passive devices. That should be straight ahead I've been told to say \:\)

Ming
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/15/06 12:06 PM

Hello,
i understand what you all mean, and i can fly with it, however i wonder what really happens. Certainly forget gravitation and Coriolis effect lol.

"There is only engine torque turning the transmission Narsinha, the mobile axle \:\) which turns the prop one way and the plane (mounted solidly to the engine) the opposite way."

Which is somehow clear, but since the propellor has a tiny mass in relation to the rest of the plane, it certainly turns easier, and that's why the prop rotates, and not the plane. It does have an effect on the plane though, admitted.

"The prop is not solidly mounted to the plane it's free to rotate in its little highly-greased world."

I even understand that lol.

"But constrained to one axis that moves around a bit like Hancock's gravy"

Yeah right. It moves as soon as the plane does any course change. Or do you mean it would move if you'd let it free ? It would stabilize like a spin top then, which, in this case, is really based on the earth's gravitaion.

"The engine turns the prop and the prop turns the work done into friction acting on the atmosphere, leverage."

I can accept that, even with rotary engines the engine turns the prop, be it itself (rotary) or via a crankshaft (in line or v-shaped), ok.

"Which shoves the plane in a counterwise angular direction of rotation to the propshaft's direction of rotation. Leverage is the thing. The propshaft is the transmission device from engine to propellor and the propellor is the transmission device from engine to atmospheric-leveraging"

Yes but that's what i wrote (rotating engines): the engine has to stem itself against something when accelerating - a rotating engine will transfer its momentum to the fixed crankshaft, and tries to turn the plane in the anti-clockwise direction, especially when the engine is heavy, and has a lot of mass.
The mass of a rotating engine revving at a fixed rpm with say 1400 rpm with its fixed propellor will also stabilize level, or better straight flight, acting like a gyroscope.

Greetings,
Narsinha
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/15/06 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Narsinha:
However this has not much to do with the Camel's behaviour to go down in right, and up in left turns. The latter one derives from the added gyroscopic effect to the inertia, and the resulting torque, not precession.

The clockwise turning engine (in direction of flight) simply assists the plane when doing a right turn, in turning the whole plane to the right along its axis. If you want to turn to the left, the engine does not only not assist you, but you have to additionally overcome the engines torque, resulting in a rise, or a long rising turn, if not countered.
Narsinha, the above quote states your initial thinking (not the opposite).

Now please, there's nothing wrong with allowing oneself to think about a process from a different "angle", and as John Denker summarizes, our early thinking about torque or gyrocopic precession is often based on intuition:

For any normal object (such as a book) if you apply a force in a given direction, it will respond with motion in that direction. People are so accustomed to this behavior that they lose sight of the fact that force and motion are not exactly the same thing, and they don’t always go together

Further:

Quote:
Originally posted by Narsinha:
As long as the engine runs with a fixed speed there is no torque to feel, you only have to fight the inertia during course changes.
This is not correct, because torque is also a "reactive" force, and is present when the engine/prop is turning, and does affect flight direction unless compensated for (either by the pilot, or by the plane's design, or both).

On the otherhand, it is gyroscopic precession which occurs only at certain times during prop and/or rotary-engined flight, again Denker:

Gyroscopic effects only occur when the there is a change in the orientation of the gyro’s plane of rotation. You can take a gyro and transport it north/south, east/west, or up/down, without causing any precession, as long as the gyro’s plane of rotation remains parallel to the original plane of rotation. You can even roll an airplane without seeing gyroscopic effects due to engine rotation, since the roll leaves the engine’s plane of rotation undisturbed.

As I tried to impress in an earlier post:

"First, all reciprocating engines that rotate a crankshaft/flywheel/and/or their outer casing (as with inline and rotary aircraft engines) produce "torque". You car engine produces torque, an electric motor produces torque, even the rubber band power for a balsa model airplane produces torque, however, torque is not the same as gyroscopic precession.

Therefore there are specific and different forces involved when talk turns to engine "torque", and when people start to talk of what was called "rotary torque" during WWI (that earlier term is a poor and confusing description, and probably why prolonged confusion continues). Rotary torque describes gyroscopic precession, which is a force that is encountered (felt) when a spinning mass is rotating in one plane, and an external force attempts to move it out of it's rotating axis of motion (outside it present rotating plane). Torque is a constant force when motive power is spinning, but gyroscopic precession is only experienced when changes in direction of its axis of rotation are changed, otherwise it's generally not even perceived."

So in the final analysis, the Camel's turning ability was very much affected by precession, and by torque, and by CG, and by it's rigged instability, and, and..... \:\)

Hey, there's been no problem in keeping this thread "front and center" now these past days.......but I hope that's been a good thing. \:D
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/15/06 04:55 PM

an external force attempts to move it out of it's rotating axis of motion

In this case the external force is that of air friction always present pushing back on the propellor blades against the engine torque before any changes of direction leading to precession come into it

One thing that confused me early on was a lecturer explaining that there is a real force acting in the upward direction when you are standing still, pushing you up... couldn't understand that at all, big mystery. Once you twig that if you are stationary under gravity there MUST be an equal force 'pushing' you upwards against gravity. Or you'd be falling. Forces don't always have to be moving things around. Things can be in a state of balance just lying there but they're being pushed around lots really if you look carefully \:\)

Ming
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/15/06 07:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ming_EAF19:
In this case the external force is that of air friction always present pushing back on the propellor blades against the engine torque before any changes of direction leading to precession come into it
Exactly Ming......and as often happens in forum discussions, there were too many "points' being discussed at the same time. ;\)
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/15/06 07:11 PM

Planes made of wood and canvas flown by early-twentieth-century-fed pilots "I am NOT eating THAT!" plus half a gallon of two stroke and a service revolver. I'm expecting massive torque \:\)

Ming
Posted By: Papa_K

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/15/06 08:05 PM

Rather than the idealized and docile "Red Baron" flight mode, that WWI "knights of the sky" purity comes with a price: Temperamental beasties, with a narrow set of allowable flight parameters, always trying to find a way to kill you. Can't wait.

Papa_K
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 12:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ming_EAF19:
Once you twig that if you are stationary under gravity there MUST be an equal force 'pushing' you upwards against gravity. Or you'd be falling.
Naaaa, you brainy guys make this all too hard.

The answer is BONES. :p



Copterdrvr
Posted By: Double_Tap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 02:28 AM

Gravity sucks!
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 04:23 AM

BONES & VOODOO
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 08:12 AM

Just to further confuse.............

Coriolis can be discounted in handling effects. The speed of coriolis is the speed of earth turning, a Foucalt's Pendulum only turns 15 degrees in an hour not in seconds. In one second the turning is less than .005 degree.

Size of prop doesn't matter. What matters is force on the prop. Torque is measured in force at some distance away from center of the turning mass. Foot pounds torque is how many pounds at one foot lever from the spin center.

Torque alone will make the plane have to place uneven force on the air as it passes through to keep the plane from spinning. That torque is entirely from prop load which the engine meets.

The other torque is the inertia of the spinning masses and that is where you get precession and *only* by applying force to turn the spin axis
at an angle to itself. The precession is immediate with any motion of the spin axis and as much as it is free to, it will affect that motion. Yeah, the plane can direct some of that force with enough air over the frame and the right alignment and the right stick and rudder work.

You can also get changes to torque that will give rise to forces usable to change direction (with its own precession coupled) or change the forces you are already turning with just by changing the speed of the engine. And that is what I think I remember reading from way back, that cranking the engine of a Camel up or down was usable. Changing RPM while flying will certainly change the load on the prop. Just wish I could remember what was done.

Last of all is slipstream that at times should be more than the precession esp when going slow.

I am sure that the developers are on top of these things. Just like the really poor wings on most of those planes, from pre-stall to stall was very quick as there was no root twist, only rigging to make any difference from wing root to tip, and the airfoils themselves of most was too thin and wide. Add on the planes with no dihedral on at least one wing and oh yeah the gotcha places are much sooner than what we're used to. I just hope that the masses of "I can't fly it, there must be a bug." posts don't end up with FR tamed down.

Maybe it's time for gamers to realize they can't always expect to be the great gift in every sim they fly. Maybe just put names that they can swallow on grouped options settings, name them after pilots or battles or something? I'm at a loss here.....

Anyone remember RB2 1.44 from April 1998? Not as easy as RB3D and still missing gyro effects.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 08:44 AM

Question for Viks here.

In the Red Baron 2 and 3 games, Sierra/Dynamix used output from a windtunnel software to generate the data each plane would use in the flight engine. But that windtunnel software was made for monoplane only then they did whatever they did to make biplane and triplane some different or not, I am not sure just what they did but compared to sims before that there was more feel of flying.

So your team, they are doing it right? Extra wings modelled actively, run-time, with offset forces and inter-wing effects? Would there be enough difference between biplane and monoplane to tell? I feel it must be so but no experience, how do I know? Only from stories read over 30 years ago mostly and some 6-7 years ago.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 10:07 AM

The other torque is the inertia of the spinning masses

At some point Neal you'll wonder if I'm taking the mickey but this stuff is fascinating to me disclaimer

Torque is the work being done by the engine that grips the propshaft and forces it to turn in a constrained circle. The equal and opposite force that must be there (we don't fall through the ground) turns the rest of the aircraft in the opposite direction

The inertia of the flywheel at the front is doing work (leverage) at the propshaft but that energy came from the propshaft in the first place \:\)

You can't create energy from the inertia of a rotating flywheel that didn't come from the driveshaft in the first place it just gets shifted around. So there's only one place there's torque being generated: at the propshaft.

Ah I see what you're saying mate. If the engine shuts down then there is torque in the inertia of the prop yes of course- so there must be torque generated at the driveshaft while the prop's rotating. Bit tricky teasing out the fine points and contributions from the elements \:\) Ta mate

Ming
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
Would there be enough difference between biplane and monoplane to tell?
That would be where multi-wing interference comes into play Neal (as you mentioned), with the top wing of a biplane/triplane being the least affected by interference. In attempts to reduce wing interference, it was found that forward wing stagger and fairly large wing gaps worked best, and was the most practical solution for pilot visibility too (as with the Sopwith and Fokker triplanes), but multi-wing configurations could never be as efficient as monoplane designs. What the multi-wing designs did offer was the potential for greater combined wing area, shorter span (less rolling inertia), and structural/bracing strength.

It has often been said that the smaller lower wings of the initial sesquiplane designs contributed little to the plane's overall lift, but were intergral to the upper wing's bracing. Of course the lower wings on the Nieuport and Albatros fighters did add lift, but there smaller chord designs were largely meant to promote pilot visibilty over equal-chord designs.

As to Neal's question about GT's flight modeling depth, and whether wing interference will be modeled?

VikS.......we gonna have biplane bones, gyro, and other FM voodoo here?
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 04:00 PM

Hey, speaking of the Camel. \:\)





The Parseval-type kite balloon used by most nations, and by some through to 1918 pops onto the scene showing some amazing detailing.



The Germans had a term for the Parseval-type Drachen on the order of "gonads".....hmmm.....wonder why?

Here's the link to this Thursday's update:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1906
Posted By: ic13

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 05:38 PM

More awesome work from the Gennadich team! Those lads do not disappoint. From the post at their development site its sounds as if they're making steady progress. I'm really looking forward to this.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 06:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
VikS.......we gonna have biplane bones, gyro, and other FM voodoo here?
at least its planned so \:\)
Posted By: shyrsio

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 06:49 PM

Is there going to be a problem with all the polys in the "Balloon", or do you guys plan to reduce em when importing them in the game engine.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 06:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shyrsio:
Is there going to be a problem with all the polys in the "Balloon", or do you guys plan to reduce em when importing them in the game engine.
actually there is no problems, cause this balloon had ~7,5K pf pollys, so its just another plane to shoot in your sights \:\)
To be short - they will be imported with same polly amount as on screens.
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 06:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
The Germans had a term for the Parseval-type Drachen on the order of "gonads".....hmmm.....wonder why?
:D
Posted By: shyrsio

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 07:26 PM

Good to hear that =FB=Viks!
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 10:02 PM

FlyXwire, there's also the high wing lift is made above the center of mass, is on a kind of lever arm above though how that is in turns I want to feel, highwing monos have extra stability by position of force generating surfaces.

I've seen 30's biplanes that had the upper wing set back a good ways. From study of the newer theory of lift with circulation pattern, the air lifting before the wing reaches it, all of which may be part of a wind tunnel simulator.

Oh yeah, I'm REVVED. We see this in the west, Viks? We have been ready long time.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/16/06 10:16 PM

Ming, in a vaccuum where there is only engine and prop and let's say the plane is held on course by rockets in the absence of wind... the onlytime you would have torque is when you change engine/prop speed.

In air, the constant torque is due to work of the prop.

If my gyro top is precessing and I change the spin rate, the precession will also change.

If I cut rpm's on the moving plane with fixed prop then I also cut torque as the prop will be pushing less on the air very quickly, may even become pressed *by* the air (overall, fixed props have a twist that makes different parts bite the air at different speeds/rpm combos) and that would result in reversed torque until the plane slows down enough to re-reverse the situation.

And if I can increase rpm's while doing a maneuver that uses the precession then hey, more power to it!

Yeah, it's all one, mass and inertia. And you can place force on something and not get equal force back. That is when the thing pushed either breaks or bends and the physics gets interesting. You can't cut materials unless you can overcome the strength of them to push back.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 12:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
Quote:
Originally posted by shyrsio:
Is there going to be a problem with all the polys in the "Balloon", or do you guys plan to reduce em when importing them in the game engine.
actually there is no problems, cause this balloon had ~7,5K pf pollys, so its just another plane to shoot in your sights \:\)
To be short - they will be imported with same polly amount as on screens.
Usually these renderings have smoothened-out polys, so the actual model might be blockier than you see here. But then the texture will be able to hide that, if it is done well. The Gennadich team seem to do them well... ;\)

I am still not too happy with the overdone wing ribs seen on the models, though. I know the skins should have some exaggerated features to seem more real in a quick fly-by (like bigger rivets), but I still think those wing rib pockets should be toned down. A bit too cartoonish for my taste.

Apart from that, it is a wonderful Camel! - Can't wait to see one of them rock from side to side on the ground, when the engine is blipped! - Just like that clip with the Camel and the Spitfire flying in formation.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 12:13 AM

This statement by FB_LOFT in this update might be purely incidental, but I tend to think it is a sign of great humour, and a little wink to our Oleg... ;\)

"The scedule plan is almost ok (maybe ~2 week of delay or so)"
Posted By: Dart

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 04:17 AM

Neal wrote:

Quote:
Size of prop doesn't matter. What matters is force on the prop.
The same principle is true of trains and tunnels.

As a metaphor, that is.

;\)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 08:12 AM

Hello all,
thanks for the explanations, however they seem to differ a bit lol.

To Gennadich team and "Knights of the sky": This is phantastic, please keep the updates coming.

Neal, you wrote:
"Ming, in a vaccuum where there is only engine and prop and let's say the plane is held on course by rockets in the absence of wind... the onlytime you would have torque is when you change engine/prop speed."

That is what i meant - the torque of an engine, be it in-line or rotating, is only felt if you make a change in revolutions. I missed out the statement that there certainly still IS torque felt in level flight, but this is the propellor being slowed down by the atmosphere's friction and "stemming" against the prop- and crankshaft. If prop- and crankshaft have different axles this does not make it easier lol.

So if you make an abrupt "blip" the engine's torque will be felt violently in the Camel, as well as during accelerating. Cutting the engine will make the plane lower its right wing, in those cases the torque "helps" the pilot if he uses this for abrupt course changes to the right.

A propellor with a fixed pitch will have additional influence to what happens, pushing the plane even further to the right if its flanks are being pushed by the wind.

If you want to force the plane out of its path you have to overcome the mass inertia of the engine, added by the gyroscopic effect that tries to stabilize the flight path all the time.

Could it be i understand this now ?

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 10:04 AM

Sorry to hear that Dart sympathy mate and brave of you to own up yes I'm sure you're right if your only coupling is a coal tender but I'm boasting the 16-coach Orient Express here mate. With an observation car at the rear \:\)

Coupling how did that get in there. Metaphors can literally be a minefield can't they \:\)

Split infinitive and incorrect use of the word literally there so that's a total of two bonus points for you nutjobs counting \:\)

Ming
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 11:49 AM

Hi,
\:D \:D \:D
at least he did not talk of propshafts, or crankshafts, or OMG ... i did \:D
Greetings,
Narsinha
Posted By: Col. Douglas King

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 12:58 PM

S!

Dear Wingstrut!

The SPAD XIII profile that I have posted was indeed made by patching together and adding something from myself to your original artwork.

I apologize for the fact I added my name as an author, this was really my mistake. I have asked infos about the whole thing to a friend who is a lawyer, and he explained me in details the meaning of what is a "Copyright", and Art Property, and how they are regulated by Law.

Now I know properly what all this mean. I really have to apologize for my mistake.

Please believe me that no harm was intended.

Here the same profile (I hope you dont mind if I show it again, as I'm doing this for you to see that I have corrected the mistake by giving you the deserved credit.)corrected in the caption.



I have modified your work only to obtain what I would like "my" SPAD looks in the future sim that is the main topic of this discussion. No publishing planned, as I'm not a writer of Aeronautical Stuff. (I'm writing for my delight but never published a single row).

So if for you my sincere apologies are acceptable, I hope that the incident can be closed and we can go forward as good friends that have in common the passion and love for Airplanes.

BTW, your profiles are really great looking.

With Respect...
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 01:23 PM

As it should be Colonel (good thing you got around to it).

Alrighty, now to the mother of all quotes on torque, and P-factor, and gyroscopic precession, and on Camels too.......I tried to keep this simple, but! ;\)

Seriously though, here's a quote from Don Stackhouse of DJ Aerotech on prop plane aerodynamics.....save this for your reference file guys:

"Don discusses propeller effects in detail...
He flew the A-36, (Dive bomber version of the Allison engine, early P-51A).

From : Don Stackhouse

Yes, I'm familiar with it, there's one on display at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio, not too far from here. Its Allison engine performed very well at low altitudes, and was excellent for a ground attack aircraft. It's primary shortcoming was its supercharger, which couldn't quite get the job done at higher altitudes. The RR Merlin engine used in the fighter versions of the Mustang had a supercharger designed to provide extra boost that kicked in at about 16,000 feet, so power could be maintained at the higher altitudes where fighters did most of their work.

He took exception to your mention of ailerons and torque. When they handed in their P-40's in Italy for the A-36, they were taught to control the stronger take off torque with the rudder and not the aileron. In fact they often cheated and used a little brake as well.

Yes, rudder is typically required on takeoff and climb in most airplanes. The need for this is often attributed to "torque" by pilots, including instructors. However, this use of the term "torque" is incorrect. The tendency to yaw on takeoff and climb is due almost entirely to P-factor and slipstream effects. The only direct contribution that torque makes to yawing in the early part of takeoff roll is perhaps a slight increase in the rolling friction of one main wheel because the torque is causing it to carry more weight than the other wheel. Strictly speaking, torque applies a rolling moment to the plane, NOT a yawing moment.
Anyway--I pointed out to him that you were only making an illustration and I didn't think you were suggesting that pilots should correct low speed yaw with ailerons. People do tend to take things out of context and old WW-II pilots do get persnickety. In his defense, I guess he has seen too many R/C pilots try to horse a tricycle ship out of tall grass with insufficient flying speed and try to correct the inevitable "torque roll" with only ailerons.

Of course I'm not suggesting that yaw should be corrected with ailerons! Ailerons control roll, not yaw. I do maintain however, that torque is not normally the direct cause of yawing effects. The slipstream effects and P-factor are the culprits there, even though torque is often unfairly blamed for something it was not directly responsible for.
However, to be completely fair, the torque of the motor, applied to the air by the propeller, is what makes the air in the slipstream swirl, and that swirl is ultimately responsible for many of the slipstream effects. Without torque, there would be no swirl, but the torque itself is not directly responsible for the yawing.

Also, P-factor, one of the major contributors to yawing, is related to the angular difference between the inflow direction of the air and the axis of the prop shaft; torque is not related to P-factor.

v Just an aside, there are often some P-factor and slipstream effects in cruising flight, and it's not unusual on airplanes that don't have in-flight adjustable rudder trim, for the fin to be offset a little to counteract this. For example, the fin on the Aeronca 7AC "Champion" I used to fly was welded to the fuselage with the leading edge offset to the left (i.e.: so it acted like right rudder), about 1/2" if I remember correctly. The P-factor and slipstream effects were greater than this offset could counteract when the airplane was taking off and climbing, so some right rudder was necessary in that flight mode. The offset was just about right in cruise (the mode where the plane supposedly would spend most of its time), and the airplane would fly coordinated with essentially zero rudder. In a power-off glide, the P-factor and slipstream effects were much less, but the fin was still offset, so LEFT rudder was required to keep the airplane coordinated in a glide.

Would you be interested in doing a re-write to make it into a short article?? I would love to include it on our club web site-- http://www.andersonparkflyers.org Or better still, perhaps a link to a page on your web site.

Just so long as you don't insist that I say the yawing is the result of torque! ;-)
Seriously though, we've always extended a standing invitation to magazine columnists, club newsletter editors. club webmasters, etc., to use anything on our website, especially in "Ask Joe and Don", that they might find useful. All we ask is that: 1. You indicate where you found it. 2. You don't take anything so out of context that it changes the meaning, or "puts words in our mouths". If you need something re-worded to fit the context of where you plan to use it, let us know and we'll work with you.

Also, it's nice to send us a note if you decide to borrow something from there. Besides the pleasure of knowing that somebody is actually reading these dissertations, it also helps us get a feel for what sorts of information seem to be the most useful for all the readers out there.

There seems to be some confusion about prop effects floating around here again. I think it might be helpful to review some definitions and clarifications.

Torque is the twisting effect coming from the motor that makes the prop spin around. In accordance with Newton's third law (the one about action and reaction), when the motor (which is mounted to the airplane) applies a torque to the prop to make it spin, the prop reacts by applying an equal and opposite torque back onto the motor and airframe. A right-handed prop (i.e.: rotates clockwise when viewed from behind) will try to roll the airplane to the left.

Right-handed props follow the "right handed rule", just like right-handed screw threads. Make a fist with your right hand, then stick out your thumb like you're about to give a "thumbs up" sign. A right-handed prop, when rotated in the direction that your fingers are curled, will make thrust in the direction your thumb is pointing. Left-handed props follow a similar rule except you use your left hand. Most American engines (and therefore their props) tend to turn in a right-handed direction when mounted in a tractor (i.e.: prop on the front of the engine) installation. If you mount it as a pusher, you need to use a left-handed prop to make the propwash blow aft and the airplane fly forwards. Installing a prop backwards does not turn it into a pusher, it just makes it less efficient because the airfoils are now backwards and upside-down.

Props on tractor-mounted older British engines tend to be left-handed. The prop on the DeHavilland Chipmunk I took my aerobatics training in had a left-handed prop. On takeoff and climb it needed left rudder to fly straight (because of slipstream effects and P-factor, more on that in a minute), whereas the J-3 Cub that I'd flown for my primary training required right rudder on climbout, like most American designs. The Chipmunk felt a little strange at first, but I got used to it surprisingly quickly. BTW, the Chipmunk is a truly delightful airplane to fly, despite the prop's direction of rotation.

Screws follow similar rules, and are normally right-handed. This can be handy to know when you're working on a stubborn rusty bolt in an awkward orientation under your car and you want to be sure you're trying to turn it in the right direction.

Torque tries to roll the airplane. Theoretically you counteract it with some aileron, although for most airplanes the amount of aileron required to do this is almost too small to notice. In some cases the airplane may be rigged with a little more incidence on one wing relative to the other to help counteract torque, although this is rare (it tends to create some funny stall characteristics). Airplanes with way too much power and too little airplane, such as WW II fighters and some aerobatic airplanes are some exceptions.

One of the advanced training exercises in a P-51 was to take it up to a safe altitude (maybe about 20,000 feet!), extend the gear and flaps, slow the airplane down to final approach speed, then quickly apply full takeoff power. Even with the stick against the stops on the right side of the cockpit, the massive amount of torque would inexorably roll the airplane over to the left. Novice Mustang pilots quickly learned to respect all those ponies that resided inside that throttle, and to be very careful about waking up too many of them at once at the wrong time and place.

There are slipstream effects that may tend to roll the airplane as well as yaw the airplane. Some folks call this P-factor, although as I was taught, P-factor is something else (be patient, I'll get to P-factor in a moment). Rolling and yawing slipstream effects are due to the helical swirl that the prop imparts to the slipstream interacting with the various parts of the airplane behind it. The classic example is the slipstream of a right-handed prop swirling around the fuselage and then striking the left side of the fin and rudder. This tends to shove the tail to the right, which therefore yaws the airplane to the left. Slipstream effects are influenced by power and airspeed (these influence how much swirl the prop imparts to the airflow), but not very much by angle of attack.

P-factor is something else. Both it and slipstream effects tend to be constant, continuous forces at any given airspeed and power setting, but P-factor forces are generated directly within the prop disk by the interaction between the blades and the airflow. P-factor occurs when the prop disk is not exactly perpendicular to the incoming airflow. Power and airspeed are important, but (unlike slipstream effects) the airplane's attitude is a major determining factor.

For example, imagine a Piper J-3 Cub at full power and in a max-performance climb. The nose is high and the prop disk is therefore tilted up quite a bit. It's a right-handed prop, so the blade on the right side of the airplane is descending. The angle of attack of that descending blade on the right side is a function of the prop's pitch PLUS the angle of attack of the airplane, and the local airspeed that each location along the blade sees is a function of the rotational speed at that radius PLUS the component of the airplane's airspeed that acts in the plane of the prop disk.

Meanwhile the blade on the left side is rising. Its angle of attack is a function of the pitch angle MINUS the angle between the inflow and the propshaft. Its local airspeeds along the blade are a function of the rotational speed at each location MINUS the component of the inflow airspeed that acts in the plane of the disk.

If the airplane were flying with the propshaft parallel to the plane's flight path, there would be no differences in the blade angles of attack and the blade local airspeeds. There would still be swirl, so there would still be slipstream effects, but there would be no P-factor.

However, since the Cub is climbing with its nose high relative to the airflow, the descending blade on the right sees a bigger angle of attack AND a slightly higher airspeed than the rising blade on the left, and so the blade on the right makes more thrust than the blade on the left. This tends to yaw the airplane to the left.

There's another factor that arises from this same effect. Since the blade on the right is seeing both a higher airspeed and a higher angle of attack, it also makes more drag than the blade on the left. This results in a net upward force acting in the plane of the disk. In this case it's trying to pull the nose up. For a plane with the prop ahead of the C/G (such as a typical nose-mounted tractor), this is destabilizing in pitch. Likewise, if the plane yaws, you get a sideways force from the prop that tries to make the yaw worse.

On an aft-mounted prop (such as most pusher installations), these forces tend to fight a yaw or a pitch excursion, so a pusher prop tends to increase pitch and yaw stability (one of the very few good things about pusher props!). For example, when Northrop converted the propeller-driven XB-35 flying wing into the jet-powered YB-49, they had to add four little fins to replace the yaw-stabilizing effects of the props.

This effect is especially important on the V-22 Osprey. When the rotors are tilted down for cruise, the lift to support the airplane is made by the wings. When the rotors are tilted up for "helicopter mode" flight, the rotors provide the necessary lift. However, there is a regime of flight about halfway between those two modes where the combined lift of the half-tilted rotors plus the low-speed lift of the wing is still not enough to support the entire weight of the aircraft. The additional required lift comes from the lateral force in the plane of the rotor disks caused by the difference in drag between the rising and descending blades.

Note, P-factor and lateral forces are continuous. There's another force, gyroscopic precession, which folks sometimes get confused with P-factor. Gyroscopic precession occurs when the propeller disk is being yawed or pitched to a different position, and ONLY exists while the disk's position is changing. It's related to the spinning mass of the blades, and has nothing to do with aerodynamics. A propeller spinning in the near-vacuum of the moon (now there's a useless exercise in futility of ever there was one!) would have gyroscopic precession forces, but no P-factor or slipstream effects.

Precession forces happen whenever you try to change the tilt of a spinning mass. You've probably observed them if you've ever played with a gyroscope. When you try to tilt a gyroscope one way, it reacts by trying to tilt in a direction 90 degrees from the direction that you tried to tilt it. A spinning propeller works the same way.

v Imagine a right-handed prop on a tricycle-geared airplane on takeoff run. The airplane reaches rotation speed, and the pilot pulls back on the controls to raise the nose for liftoff. At that particular instant, lets assume that the plane's right handed 2-bladed (or in propeller industry lingo a "2-way") propeller is vertical. The blade at the top is headed toward the right, and the blade at the bottom is headed toward the left. When the airplane starts to rotate nose-up, the top blade has to accelerate aft, and the lower blade has to accelerate forwards. This means that by the time the blades are horizontal, the formerly top (now right) blade wants to be a little behind the original prop disk, and the formerly lower and now left blade wants to be a little further ahead. The net result is that the prop disk wants to momentarily yaw to the right, and take the plane with it.

Note, this is only happening while the plane is changing its pitch attitude, the effect stops as soon as the plane reaches the new pitch attitude and stops pitching up.

If we yaw the airplane, we get a pitch-up or pitch-down precession from the prop, depending on the direction of the yaw and the direction that the prop is spinning. This is probably one of the biggest culprits behind the somewhat checkered safety record of the Sopwith Camel.

The WW I Sopwith Camel, like many airplanes of that period, used a rotary engine. This rather bizarre variation of the radial engine (i.e.: the cylinders are arranged in a circle like the spokes on a bicycle wheel) had the prop bolted to the crankcase, and the crankshaft bolted to the firewall. The whole engine spun around with the prop! One of the biggest problems of engine design in those days was cooling, especially on the ground, and spinning the cylinders was a very effective way to deal with this problem. The power-to-weight ratios of the WW I vintage rotary engines would not be bettered by conventional non-spinning engines until many years after the war. However, this meant that those tiny and extremely lightweight airplanes had a spinning gyroscope of an engine in their noses that might weigh several hundred pounds. More importantly, the enormous mass of that spinning engine could create some extremely powerful gyroscopic precession effects. Which is part of the explanation as to why there were far more Camel pilots killed in training accidents than were lost due to combat.

The Camel had a relatively large and heavy Clerget rotary in the nose. In addition to its being a rotary, with all the quirks that go with that, it also had a little problem with its carburetor. About 200 feet of altitude after takeoff (just about the time the plane would be making its first turn after takeoff), it needed to have its fuel mixture adjusted a little, or else it would start to sputter and misfire.

Now imagine that you're a new Camel pilot, taking off for your first time. You're climbing out, at minimum airspeed and holding a whole bunch of rudder to counteract the P-factor. You reach the altitude for your first turn (about 200 feet above ground), the engine starts to sputter. Your attention is immediately drawn to the sparse instrument panel and the motor controls, and the sudden mental workload causes your leg muscles to relax on the rudder pedals (studies done for human-powered aircraft demonstrated that the work a human can do drops quite dramatically if they also have to think about something at the same time). The rudder deflection decreases a little and the airplane creeps into a slight yaw.

Meanwhile the plane is still turning, changing heading, which means there are gyroscopic precession moments being generated. It just so happens that you're turning in the direction that creates a nose-up precession effect, and you're already nose-high and at low airspeed due to the climb. The still-sputtering engine is losing power, and it plus the nose-up effects of the precession cause airspeed to decay, until the plane stalls. The nose drops suddenly, and the combination of precession, torque, P-factor, etc. causes the plane to stall one wing first, and the plane goes into a spin. However, you're so low that when you suddenly look up from the engine controls to see the ground coming up VERY fast, you don't see the spin's rotation. In a final moment of panic you instinctively yank back on the stick, sealing your fate (although from 200 feet you probably don't have room to recover anyway, even if you did everything correctly). The plane has time to do about a quarter turn before impacting the turf and turning you into another sad statistic. You probably don't even realize that it was a spin that ended your career, as well as everything else for you.

However, years later an astute reader looking at an old photo of your Camel's wreckage in a history book will see that it was a spin that resulted in your untimely demise. Clearly visible in the picture, one set of wings is wrapped slightly around the top of the fuselage and the other wrapped around the bottom, indicating that the whole airplane was rotating when it hit.

There are a number of other prop effects, but we'll leave those for another time.

In general, prop effects are not likely to be all that huge for our models, at least not in comparison to what's seen in full-scale aircraft. The can influence the plane's flight trim, but (as Ted alluded to) for low powered models such as the Pico Cub, other things such as warps in the wings and problems with the alignment and the other flying surfaces are likely to be just as important.


Don Stackhouse
DJ Aerotech"


Well there, that ought to kill the beast.....hey, anyone still awake after reading all that? \:D \:D \:D
Posted By: Papa_K

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 05:44 PM



OT, but related to the post above:

It has always seemed that in IL2/FB/AEP/PF versions, we get various amounts of yaw and not enough induced roll - in flight and during ground ops. At times, it's as if we're sitting on a frisbee.

(Pilot-speak vs aero-geek: Don't see a problem calling the game option "Torque" - could re-labeled it though.)
__________________________
People are going to start drooling if you keep waving those Camel shots around... \:D

Papa_K
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 07:18 PM

Hello FlyXwire,
that is a perfect description of what's happening (or so i think lol), thank you very much for posting this and making it clear. Please give my regards and thanks to Don Stackhouse (?) or whoever you contacted ... i'm sure he will appreciate some feedback.

Now a lot of things fall into place, e.g. when my father told me the fin of the Ju 52 3m having an offset of the vertical tail fin (he was an engineer at the Junkers works in Dessau from 1927 on), as well as a lot of other things regarding aerodynamics.

Took a long time to know for me - thanks a lot,
and greetings,
Narsinha
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 07:45 PM

Well certainly Narsinha, and you mentioned your father was an engineer at Junkers, well of course Junkers was far ahead of his time with experiments into the use of thick airfoils during WWI (mostly from a structural standpoint).

Hey, the previous information wasn't addressed to me directly from Don Stackhouse, but is available on the DJ Aerotech website. Here's another gem Don posted about the Camel's handling qualities:

Someone asked why the Sopwith Camel was so unstable?

From : Don Stackhouse

Actually, C/G is a BIG part of the answer, but there are a number of other factors as well. Like many WW I aircraft, the Camel was badly tailheavy, which resulted in a reduction in static pitch and yaw stability.

The effects of C/G on dynamic stability (the ability to damp out oscillations) are more complicated, but the Camel wasn't very good in that regard, either, mainly because the tail surfaces were too small. The additional moment of inertia about the pitch axis because of the biplane layout (having the weight of one wing down low and the other at quite a distance above it does the same thing to inertia about the pitch axis that having a lot of weight at the nose and tail, far from the C/G, would do) adds to the problem. In short, there's a lot of things that can keep an oscillation in pitch or yaw started, but not much tail authority to make the oscillations stop. The pathetically small fixed area on the fin/rudder made the problems in yaw even worse. A pilot generally doesn't hold the rudder pedals stiffly enough for the rudder to contribute very much to yaw stability. In full-scale design it comes up in the category of what we call "stick-fixed" vs. "stick-free" (or in this case, "rudder-free") stability. The Fokker Triplane was even worse in this regard, with no fixed vertical fin area at all and a huge aerodynamic counter-balance on the front of the rudder. The Triplane's almost total indifference to which way it was pointed in the yaw direction was legendary. The situation on R/C models is a bit better in this regard, since a servo with a good linkage can hold the rudder stiffly enough for the rudder to act like a fixed fin.

Then there's the gyroscopic precession you alluded to. When you try to make a gyroscope tilt in one plane that's parallel to its axis of rotation, it reacts by trying to tilt in another plane that's exactly 90 degrees further around its axis of rotation. In the case of the Camel, with approximately 400 pounds of gyroscope hanging on the nose, a turn to the left would cause a gyroscopic precession moment that would try to raise the nose. A turn to the right would shove the nose down. In a right turn this acts like down elevator. If you roll into a steep bank and shove in enough down, you will find yourself in knife-edge flight with no turn rate. OTOH, for a steep turn you normally need a pretty fair dose of "up", and the precession in a left turn would provide essentially the same thing. Pulling the nose up would cause a yaw to the right, and pushing the nose down would yaw the airplane to the left. If you stall, the rapid pitch-down at the stall break would cause a strong and rapid yaw to the left, just as if you had just stomped on the left rudder. And we all know what happens when you boot the rudder right at the stall break.

Thanks in large part to the studies of the Wright brothers, which were very meticulous but did not properly account for Reynolds number effects, the airfoils everyone back then (with the possible exception of A.Fokker and H.Junkers) believed were the best were thin and highly cambered. Besides condemning the airplanes of the time to biplanes with external bracing (the wings were too thin for cantilever spars), it also condemned them to poor stall characteristics. The airfoils that work best on models often don't work well for full-scale, just as full-scale airfoils usually don't work well on models. Add this to the gyroscopic effects and a spin was almost inevitable.

Then there's all the torque from that big, slow turning prop. Horsepower is a combination of RPM and torque. If the RPM is lower, then the torque must be higher in order to get the same horsepower. Those big, slow-turning props on those low RPM motors were relatively efficient (which is why replicas with modern high-RPM motors often don't perform nearly as well despite having greater installed horsepower), but the had gobs of torque. This torque tried to roll the Camel to the left, which made rolling into left turns easier and rolling into right turns more difficult. It also increased the necessary lift coefficient on the left wing, which set the stage for a magnificent left wing drop at the stall.

Perhaps the final nail in the beginning Camel-pilot's coffin was the carburation system on the Clerget engine. It had a little quirk that required the mixture to be re-adjusted at about 200 ft altitude after takeoff. Imagine that you're a first-time Camel pilot, with just a few hours in non-rotary, low power, worn-out Avros and Be-2's, up for your first flight in a Camel. You take off, start a normal climb (nose well up, airspeed low, power at max), and just as you start into that standard 90 degree left turn after takeoff, the engine begins to sputter, instantly drawing your attention away from the horizon and into the cockpit. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to the pilot (whose head is in the cockpit, and who has never experienced a plane that automatically tries to change its pitch attitude dramatically whenever it turns) the left turn plus the gyroscopic effects starts inexorably pulling the nose up. The airplane's nearly non-existent pitch stability (due to the aft C/G) doesn't put up much resistance to this. The more nose-up attitude adds to the already decaying airspeed (caused by the loss of power from the sputtering engine), and sure enough, the airflow lets go from those thin wings and the plane stalls violently. The pilot, suddenly attentive but completely disoriented, looks up (far too late to do anything about the situation) just in time to see the nose yaw violently to the left as it falls through in the stall break. In this era long before the relationship between stall, angle of attack and airspeed was properly understood, our neophite pilot reacts (naturally) by pulling the stick back the rest of the way, and probably adding full right aileron as well. With utterly no chance for a recovery at this point, the airplane does about a quarter turn before smiting itself against terra-firma. The rotation is slight enough that his buddies on the ground don't recognize that it was indeed a spin, perpetuating the mystery and the myth, and delaying any meaningful insight into solving the problem. Today, however, we can recognize from the photos that it was indeed a spin that added our hapless hero to the Camel's list of statistics. Clearly visible in the photo is that fact that one set of wings are wrapped around the nose, and the other set are wrapped around the tail, indicating that the plane was rotating when it hit.

If I remember correctly, the Brits lost about 1100 Camels in combat, and about 1700 in training accidents.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/17/06 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
Well certainly Narsinha, and you mentioned your father was an engineer at Junkers, well of course Junkers was far ahead of his time with experiments into the use of thick airfoils during WWI (mostly from a structural standpoint).[/i] [/b]
The Junkers F 13 (first flight 1919) was incredibly far ahead of anything else seen in airplane construction and aerodynamics. It flew all over the world, and was an example emulated by airplane manufacturers all over the world as well. - Usually ten-fifteen years after the F 13 though...

http://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstell/meister/e_ju.htm
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/18/06 05:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Narsinha:
Hello all,
thanks for the explanations, however they seem to differ a bit lol.

To Gennadich team and "Knights of the sky": This is phantastic, please keep the updates coming.

Neal, you wrote:
"Ming, in a vaccuum where there is only engine and prop and let's say the plane is held on course by rockets in the absence of wind... the onlytime you would have torque is when you change engine/prop speed."

That is what i meant - the torque of an engine, be it in-line or rotating, is only felt if you make a change in revolutions. I missed out the statement that there certainly still IS torque felt in level flight, but this is the propellor being slowed down by the atmosphere's friction and "stemming" against the prop- and crankshaft. If prop- and crankshaft have different axles this does not make it easier lol.

So if you make an abrupt "blip" the engine's torque will be felt violently in the Camel, as well as during accelerating. Cutting the engine will make the plane lower its right wing, in those cases the torque "helps" the pilot if he uses this for abrupt course changes to the right.

A propellor with a fixed pitch will have additional influence to what happens, pushing the plane even further to the right if its flanks are being pushed by the wind.

If you want to force the plane out of its path you have to overcome the mass inertia of the engine, added by the gyroscopic effect that tries to stabilize the flight path all the time.

Could it be i understand this now ?

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish
We are not flying in vaccuum and the torque is not mostly due to air friction on the prop but rather the lift generated by the section of the prop making thrust. The torque must be equal or more to the thrust. It is considerable during climb and high speed and thrust-accelerated flight.

Yeah, you blip that off and suddenly the air is driving the prop and engine, the torque gets completely reversed and unless you are in a steep dive the whole mill slows down... things will change.

I can dig the p-factor FlyX but it only applies with difference between flight path and pitch which during climb and maneuver can yes be most or much of the time. Let's add 'during turns, esp hard turns as well as loops' to the list. ;^)

Slipstream goes down with speed but we will be having planes with much narrower speed envelopes than WWII.

Hope the difference between Gottingen wings of DrI and DVII from,,, others,,, will be well noticeable. NACA numbers showing WWI wings were floating around in 1998 on Delphi with comparison to Clark-Y of 10 years (or nearly?) later that changed aviation. The Gottingen wings that Fokker used were close all the way to the Clark-Y.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/18/06 05:40 AM

IIRC the training losses as percentage were higher for SPADs.

Funny how with trained pilots that collection of bad traits known as the Camel was one of the more maneuverable planes of the war. They musta flown em different somehow. I've heard it said that if you can fly a Sopwith Camel, you can fly -anything-. But that quote is older than helicopters.
Posted By: Oilburner

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/18/06 07:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
IIRC the training losses as percentage were higher for SPADs.

Funny how with trained pilots that collection of bad traits known as the Camel was one of the more maneuverable planes of the war. They musta flown em different somehow. I've heard it said that if you can fly a Sopwith Camel, you can fly -anything-. But that quote is older than helicopters.
I think a lot of that may be due to the crazy amount of forces generated by the engine, especially the 160 gnome and the on/off throttle.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/18/06 08:50 AM

Funny to think that, if we are actually getting a truly hi-fi simualtion here, then a skill-set that was lost almost 80 years ago - how to handle the temperamental Camel in the air - will be "virtually" re-learned!

Yes, yes, I know, only a simulation, but still....
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/18/06 12:21 PM

Without the physical feedback available in rl controlling the extreme forces that are actually present will be extremely difficult. With just your PC monitor there's next to nothing to tell you what your aircraft is doing.

I actually think that the current 4xx flight model in IL2 is a good balance betwen real and what can reasonably be controlled with the available visual feedback.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/18/06 01:19 PM

Excellent point by Mogster, as related to WWI FMs!!!
Quote:
Originally posted by Mogster:
Without the physical feedback available in rl controlling the extreme forces that are actually present will be extremely difficult. With just your PC monitor there's next to nothing to tell you what your aircraft is doing.

I actually think that the current 4xx flight model in IL2 is a good balance betwen real and what can reasonably be controlled with the available visual feedback.
As was often the case with flying/fighting WWI aircraft, it was not always the aerodynamic qualities of the plane which proved its usefulness for combat, but the control-ability of the pilot to push an aircraft to its performance limits that made the plane a stand-out. Early aviation aircraft often exhibited a total lack for pilot ergonomics, with poorly harmonized controls often requiring large differentials in stick/pedal movements and the input pressures required. Some aircraft required a throw of 2 feet to traverse the ailerons to their opposite direction, and ailerons were often very stiff to operate while rudder movements remained sensitive in response but with little control feedback.

When we read that a certain plane was difficult to fly, while another was nimble in comparison, this often expressed a difference in control-ability, as evidenced by the aircraft's state of control harmony, and doesn't always speaks to the inherent aerodynamic qualities of the airframe (as if they could be separated from one another somehow). Of course having an aircraft that displayed good handling qualities as well as fine aerodynamic potential could prove to be a real "war-winner", as the Fokker D.VII was seen to be, and the difference between flying a Fokker D.VII with horn-balnced control surfaces as opposed to a twitchy Camel, helps personify as Mogster mentioned above, the difference between flying our PC's offering no authentic-like flying feedback, and doing the flying in the real thing.

We're not going to get the real feel of flying WWI aircraft in any retail flight sim, but we can get facsimiles that detail most of the important flying parameters of the era's great planes, and that will be fantastic in itself! \:\)
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/19/06 11:13 PM

Bump-o-rama.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/20/06 01:18 AM

Should have saved the bump-here's a real question.

The comments regarding new pilots trying to fly the Camel have intrigued me.

As someone who's spent the better part of the last 25 years instructing both military and civilian pilots, it'd be a gas to see an example of the ground and flight syllabus used to train the fighter pilots of WWI.

Haven't had much luck surfin',-anyone have any info?

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Dart

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/20/06 06:31 AM

I'll look about.

I know that at Rinebeck Aerodrome in New York, they have an Albatross and a Camel they fly.

The Alby comes out - just beautiful, a real work of craftmanship, with lines flowing around a round fuselage. It just comes to life smoothly and says:

"Ja, I am za svan of za air! I vill duel with ze skill und ze grace!"

And then the Camel comes out - all boxy and blunt, and the engine just roars and blows castor oil all over the place, literally twisting the plane on the ground, saying:

"Oi! I'll rip yer friggin' head off, you bloody wanker!"

\:\)
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/20/06 11:43 AM

Hi Copterdvr,

I did in-depth research into the American pilot training program used at their sprawling Issoudun center in France during WWI, in preparation for the below "BFM" article I posted last year, and would recommend the following links for more information on the US (French) system:

http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/issodun.htm
http://www.worldwar1.com/tgwscontr/johnwheat1.htm
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj88/durden.html

For the the British, the last section of the British 1918 flight instruction manual "Practical Flying", has a suggested chronology for a general "certificate" training program (Flying Instruction Notes In Brief......starting page 118):

http://www.warillustrated.com/practicalflying/

For more detail on British and German pilot instruction, there's numerous WWI "Cross & Cockade" journal articles which describe the various training programs for those respective air services.

Anyway, here's the brief article I did on the advanced training in aerial maneuvers that American pilots received in France, prior to their combat squadron assignments:

In June of 1917, Lieuntenant Albert Louis Deullin of the Aviation Militaire wrote down the principles he had learned from combat fighting as a chasse pilot and leader in his "Pursuit Work in a Single-Seater". These ideas were adopted by the United States Army Air Service, and Deullin's doctrine became a part of the "French System" of instruction that American pilots received at their training fields in France. In the matters of airmanship, Deullin's monograph had the following to say about mastering the techniques of aerobatic maneuver:

As a pilot, he should be, before everything else, skillful in maneuvering. He can never practice too much aerial acrobatics; the short turn without change of height, climbing and descending spirals, nose spins, renversements," "retournements," looping the loop, short climbs at a very steep angle (What is known as a "chandelle" in French is the maneuver executed, when a plane has acquired an excessive speed in a dive, by pulling the plane into an angle greater than the best climbing angle. By using full motor a very steep ascent may thus be made until the machine begins to lose its speed, when a more normal angle is adopted. The height which can be gained in this manner will of course depend upon the machine and the amount of excess speed at the beginning of the ascent), dives and so on are the beginning of his period of instruction. He will only be ready for the "chasse" when he can execute them with precision relative to an adversary who manoeuvres likewise.

When Lieutenant-Colonel Hiram Bingham (renowned explorer of S. America, and eventual U.S. Senator) assumed command of the Third Aviation Instruction Center at Issoudun, France in the spring of 1918, the training of American airmen at the sprawling complex had been under way for many months. Although some streamlining of the "French System" of training was to take place, the American Air Service largely maintained the syllabus as originally set forth, and in his book An Explorer in the Air Service, Bingham described the daily routine that pilots experienced in their effort to qualify as single-seater or two-seater airmen at Issoudun. Much of the following details on aerobatic maneuver comes from Bingham's book and drawings, and his references as to the manner of service instruction conducted at the Center's various airfields was invaluable in preparing this article.

One of the first advanced maneuvers that American airmen trained on, was how to initiate and recover from a spin, or as the French called it the Vrille. For reasons that became obvious as the war progress, it was deemed imperative that pilots learned how to master the spin as part of their basic training, before more advanced instruction continued. In letters home, Lt. Waldo Heinrichs describes doing a Vrille as chronicled in the book First To The Front, by Charles Woolley:

The first thing on the program was the Vrille, where you pitch with your wings spinning around the fuselage as an axis, very spectacular, but pretty easy so long as you don't lose your head. I climbed up to a thousand meters, cut the engine and after waiting a few seconds to lose speed, I yanked the stick into one comer and kicked the rudder over to the same side. The sensation is more or less like falling over a cliff in a bad dream. You rear up in the air, go over on your back and then start spinning round in a dive. To come out, you straighten your rudder, move the stick back to the center and push it slightly forward until you come out in a dive, when you can pull up the plane, put on the motor again, only it seems as if the earth were still spinning around underneath you.

Here's what Bingham wrote about the spin:

The spin or vrille was executed by throttling down the motor, holding up the nose of the plane until its flying speed as almost lost, then kicking the right rudder violently over and pulling the stick sharply back and to the right. This caused the plane to fall immediately into a vrille or "spinning nose dive." In order to come out of the spin, the rudder is at first placed exactly in neutral, then the stick is brought into the neutral position and pushed slowly forward. This causes the plane to stop spinning and start a straight nose dive. After flying speed has been attained by the nose dive, the plane is gradually pulled up to a level flying position and the throttle opened.

The chief danger is that the student in his excitement will over-control and send the plane into a reverse spin or else will push the stick too far forward and turn a somersault, coming out of the spin on his back. Consequently, it was very important to see that the student went up high enough so that he had plenty of room to come out of any positions into which he might get before falling too close to the ground.




Once proficiency at spirals, and in entering and recovering from a spin was demonstrated by the student pilot, additional instruction in aerobatics continued at Issoudun, with increasingly tighter turns at greater degrees of bank being taught. Next for the budding American pusuit pilots to learn was the Immelmann Turn, or what was encompassed in the French repertoire known as Virages. Called a "Vertical Virage" because the required bank exceeded 45 degrees, Bingham describes the technique for executing the WWI version of this maneuver:

After satisfying the instructor of his ability to do tight spirals, the pilot was next taught to do vertical banks or virages, beginning at an elevation of about five thousand feet. The movements of the controls in this manoeuvre are the same as those in tight spirals, except that the plane is banked over to 90° and the speed is increased to a point where dizziness is brought on very rapidly.



With the French monitors satisfied with the progress of their American charges, the student pilots advanced to Fields 5 & 6 at Issoudun, to learn the final two aerobatic maneuvers of their training program, and to fly these in the single-seat Nieuports of 15 Meter wing area, such as the Nieuport 21.

Bingham continues with his description of the Split-S:

After this the pilot learned the renversement, the quickest method of doing an aerial "about-face." This manoeuvre is performed by first pulling smartly on the stick and then turning the plane over on its back with a sharp, quick kick on the right rudder, at the same time throttling the motor. Just as the plane comes over on its back, the rudder is kicked sharply back into a neutral position and the stick pulled back into the seat, which causes the plane to come out into a normal glide.

In letters written to home, 1st Lieutenant William Muir Russel described his mastering of the Renversement during his training days at the Center:

The third, which is really beautiful and looks really difficult, but is not, is what the French call a "renversement." This is also very valuable in fighting, as it is the quickest way to turn when being pursued by an enemy. While flying along level you suddenly pull up the nose, let her slip to one side over on her back, then nose her down to the ground and come out going in the opposite direction. All these movements in five seconds. Many beginning to learn this stunt get into the vrille, or tail spin, the first couple of times they try it! It is pretty to watch, and remarkable because no altitude is lost in the maneuver.



Greatest excitement for Russel, as well as for most other pilots, was reserved for mastering the vertical Side-Slip maneuver, and perhaps understandably so:

In my letter of some time ago, I described the acrobatics which are compulsory for each chasse pilot to take. Our machines have been strengthened to stand the extra strain. All of the sensations are pleasant except the side-slip, where you fall off to one side perpendicularly. This is the worst I have yet encountered, and you may be sure that one does it only when he is ordered to. You are actually torn away from your seat, and your life belt is all that holds you in the machine. At the same time, your stomach rests in your mouth. You can probably understand why the rain is such a friend in need after you have worked for a week endeavoring to perfect such stunts. After satisfying certain French monitors that these maneuvers have been mastered, we were assigned to another field to perfect our squadron flying. This is most interesting work, but a little tedious, as you have to do almost too much flying.

Commander Bingham described in his book this final requisite maneuver that aspiring pursuit pilots were to display their proficiency at:

The course of instruction at Field 5 was completed by learning what are known as "wing slips." When once in a wing slip, the plane falls very rapidly sideways and is controlled by a slight pressure on the stick and rudder. To get it into the wing slip, our pilots were taught to bank the plane over slowly, reducing the motor gradually and putting on reverse rudder so as to prevent the plane from diving, and at the same time pushing the stick slightly forward in order to overcome any tendency to spiral. To come out of the wing slip, it is necessary to push the rudder down so as to cause the plane to dive, and pull in the stick as though coming out of a spiral.

To follow all these instructions in detail in the single seater Nieuport when they knew that some of their friends had already been killed in attempting to execute these manoeuvres, involved an amount of courage that is not understood by the average soldier on the ground. At the same time it was absolutely necessary for the flyer who wished to become a good pursuit pilot to do exactly as he was told and carry out his instructions to the letter.




With the schooling on "stunting" over, successful pilots were advanced to take formation, gunnery, navigation, and training in tactics with eventual assignment to a pursuit squadron planned. As interesting as this additional instruction at Issoudun was to be, these final phases of aviation instruction are beyond the planned coverage of this brief article.

Hopefully readers will have found this information as much fun to read as I have had in presenting it here.

Suggested readings and sources:

A Happy Warrior: Letters Of William Muir Russel, An American Aviator In The Great War, 1917-1918, by Henry Russel
An Explorer in the Air Service, by Hiram Bingham
First To The Front, THe Adventures of 1st Lt. Waldo Heinrichs and the 95th Aero Squadron, 1917-1918, by Charles Woolley
Over The Front Journal, Volume 12, Number 3, Fall 1997
Practical Flying, by Flight-Commander W.G. McMinnies, R.N.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/20/06 12:24 PM

Thanks guys.

FXW-great stuff and interesting links.

Gave it a quick read at the breakfast table this morn.-spend more time tonight.

During the quick read didn't notice any mention of flight time-any ideas?

Thanks,



Copterdrvr
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/23/06 02:18 PM

Ok, who's into leather........because the textures on the new Spad 13's cockpit are saying "squeeze me"! \:D



Hey, can you tell the Spad was a "vegetable" fighter......check out the wood grain in that office:



Sure the gauge faces are great, but damn, look at the different shapes for the needles too, and there's a mallet on the floorboard for clearing the guns!

Ok, I'm not going to ruin all the fun here, so go see this French master over at GT's website yourselves:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1906
Posted By: Ciprian

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/23/06 03:10 PM

Superb work, i only hope all the aspects of the game are treated whit such acuracy.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/23/06 03:21 PM

VIKS, I just noticed you're online at SimHQ: Could these be helpful to the team, you think?

http://www.german-trench-maps.com/
http://www.great-war-trench-maps.com/
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/23/06 06:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
VIKS, I just noticed you're online at SimHQ: Could these be helpful to the team, you think?

http://www.german-trench-maps.com/
http://www.great-war-trench-maps.com/
rgr, we already got some CD`s from that serie ;\)
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/23/06 06:47 PM

I wonder how you'll use the telescopic gunsights in game? I can't think of a way apart from toggling between full screen gunsight view and cockpit view.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/23/06 09:09 PM

I guess it will be like the telescopic gunsight view on the early japanese planes we already have in PF.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/23/06 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
I guess it will be like the telescopic gunsight view on the early japanese planes we already have in PF.
we have some other ideas to make it better to use, no promises - but we will try to do it ;\)
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/23/06 10:24 PM

What's interesting about the French Chreiten and the British Aldis sights is that they didn't magnify the target image, but were designed to align the image no matter what the position of the pilot's viewpoint.

The projected view directly ahead of the sight appeared the same to the pilot, whether the pilot's eyepoint was off a few degrees or not, which greater facilitated aiming when maneuevering in the air.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/24/06 07:44 AM

Forerunners of the revi/reflector sights or were they reflector sight?

S! Viks, please keep some data HUD as game view angle is restricted. In real you could see guages on one side and still where you are going but not with possible in-game view angles.

Can you make a string and weight tied inside the cockpit work? Old time pilot thing still used by some.
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/24/06 09:26 AM

I wonder how many pilots looked at that string and weight hanging reassuringly straight down, while their plane was spiralling downward inside a cloud?

Where's there some more info on those gunsights, I would like to know more.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/24/06 09:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:

Can you make a string and weight tied inside the cockpit work? Old time pilot thing still used by some.
hmm - any photos/pictures maybe?
Posted By: Mahoney

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/24/06 09:52 AM

Viks - something to look out for. For Flying Corps Rowan used British trench maps to make their landscape; unfortunately they didn't realise that on British trench maps they showed the whole Gerrman trench sustem but only the British front line trenches, so that the map would be no use to the enemy if captured. Which resulted in the Flying Corps terrain having a full system of front line, second, third and suport trenches with communication trenches, and the Brits just having a single trench! You've probably taken this into account, but just in case...
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/24/06 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mahoney:
Viks - something to look out for. For Flying Corps Rowan used British trench maps to make their landscape; unfortunately they didn't realise that on British trench maps they showed the whole Gerrman trench sustem but only the British front line trenches, so that the map would be no use to the enemy if captured. Which resulted in the Flying Corps terrain having a full system of front line, second, third and suport trenches with communication trenches, and the Brits just having a single trench! You've probably taken this into account, but just in case...
rgr Mahoney, but in this case we used an kind of "military trick" - we ordered an captired german trench maps too \:D
Posted By: F19_Klunk

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/24/06 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by =FB=VikS:
Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
I guess it will be like the telescopic gunsight view on the early japanese planes we already have in PF.
we have some other ideas to make it better to use, no promises - but we will try to do it ;\)
I would love if you used it the same way as used in Red Orchestra. The way you use the scope in IL2 you really loose your peripheral eyesight. That is why I avoid Ki 43 for example, I can't stand it.. or rather..I can't handle it

In a sim like this peripheral eyesight is ESSENTIAL when you are involved in tight dogfights..

Here is what I mean/suggest:

http://freldar.filecloud.com/img/sized/00/00/21/00002159.jpg


compare it with this:

http://www.pacific-fighters.com/ss/Ki-43-I_gun.jpg


A suggestion to make this "doable" (to be able you move your head up, down, back and forward, and to the sides while "scoping" would be too much to ask for, maybe even un-realistic and would also make it inprecise) is to make a command just like scope view in il2, but with the view like in RO, your position is still fixed close up to the scope, you can't move your head but is still able to see what is going on around the scope.....

And then if you want to look in another direction, either by mouse or with TIR you have to flick off the "scope-command" again.. just as you really do in real life.. while aiming down a scope sight you can still see what is going on directly "outside" the scopeview by keeping both eyes open, but not to the sides. To look to the left you have to "disengage" from tha sight... ergo.."scope view"
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/24/06 12:55 PM

Here's how the Aldis sight looks on the FS-WWI SE5a (as a modeled object with a viewable lens):



Here's how the Aldis sight looks in OFF (also as a modeled object with a viewable lens):



Both sim platforms for these WWI mods (SDOE & CFS3) allow cockpit zooming, so that the
pilot's viewpoint can move closer to the sight. Here's a view showing a moderate zoom:



Finally, here's a sight look sitting in a real Sopwith Camel (w/rubber eyepiece attached):



Without magnification, the Le Chretien and Aldis collimate the viewpoint and superimpose a
ring scale and dot onto the target, without causing the pilot to loose his spatial awareness.
(almost like having a "bore-sight" to use in one's frontal view)

Freycinet, the best two books I know of on WWI armament are:

Early Aircraft Armament by Harry Woodman
Flying Guns World War I by Anthony G. Williams & Dr. Emmanuel Gustin

Both books have information on tubular sights, with Woodman having the most. \:\)
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/24/06 01:21 PM

Well, I was more interested in some on-line info... \:D

but thx!
Posted By: Sulky Boy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/24/06 01:28 PM

The Aldis has no magnification (preceding Heath sight was X3) and entered combat with a small circle for aimpoint and a larger circle set for a fighter wingspan at a crossing speed of 100mph. Later models the outer circle gave a Gotha wingspan at 200yards.
German pilots sought the Aldis' from RAF crashes and later Oigee made a copy.
Aldis issued to selected squadrons in mid 1916 for trial. By 1917 became the British standard model for fixed guns. Chretien introduced in 1918 and Oigee followed.
Wallace-Vol 1 and Vol 2.
If I can help, just ask.
Sulk'
Posted By: fearlesslds

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/25/06 03:25 AM

Any news on the production of this sim or any others . Thanks
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/25/06 08:54 AM

Ehhh, yes, the thread is full of news!
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/25/06 11:03 AM

So if I can look through the thing so easily from off positions then why the rubber eye cup? Why can't I see but a dot of light through the sight if it was so head position flexible?

Let's see more pics of real ones like that other one.
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/25/06 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sulky Boy:
The Aldis has no magnification (preceding Heath sight was X3) and entered combat with a small circle for aimpoint and a larger circle set for a fighter wingspan at a crossing speed of 100mph. Later models the outer circle gave a Gotha wingspan at 200yards.
German pilots sought the Aldis' from RAF crashes and later Oigee made a copy.
Aldis issued to selected squadrons in mid 1916 for trial. By 1917 became the British standard model for fixed guns. Chretien introduced in 1918 and Oigee followed.
Wallace-Vol 1 and Vol 2.
If I can help, just ask.
Sulk'
is there detailed plans/photos of sights? The mostly interesting is Le Chretien sight.
Posted By: Sulky Boy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/25/06 11:35 AM

VikS
Some pics and diagrams are available. I'm expecting a new scanner next week, so could send you what I have then.

Neal,
The ideal head position was with the eye 5 inches from the sight. A reasonable amount of lateral movement was possable but not unlimited.
It had a front cap to protect from all that castor oil being thrown about. The rear fitting was to limit breakage of glass goggle lenses caused by unintentional collision. Turbulance etc.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/25/06 01:46 PM

Thanks for forwarding these additional details Dave!

Looks like the Aldis will be "spot on". \:\)
Posted By: Trip

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/26/06 02:41 AM

can't wait 2 get this s.o.b.!! \:D
Posted By: =FB=VikS

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/26/06 11:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sulky Boy:
VikS
Some pics and diagrams are available. I'm expecting a new scanner next week, so could send you what I have then.
rgr!
Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/26/06 01:18 PM

Just posting to clarify a couple of things. I've gotten some PMs regarding a few comments I made earlier in this thread about flight model debates and another discussion on sound with Pritzl.

1) No, I'm not in a feud with Pritzl. I consider him to be a great guy and fun to fly with and against. We might disagree on some things, but jeez, it ain't no "feud". There a lot of things we agree on too.

2) My comments about FM debates were GENERAL comments about the some people thinking there would be no debate. It had nothing to do with Viks' team or their product. If anything, it was just a heads up warning to him to expect debate. Having once started a similar effort I somewhat knew what to expect. I have no ill will toward Viks and their effort. In fact, just the opposite concerning their project. I wish them the best of luck because I am a HUGE fan of WWI and anxiously await a good WWI sim.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/26/06 04:35 PM

Related to Sensei's comments (but in a generic sense only), my take on WWI FM's......we can expect no more, and we can expect no less (the process in the end comes down to intention and beliefs).

Allow me to characterize beforehand discussions on WWI flight modeling, and frame any future debate with a question.....how insistent can we be when talking of "vegetable" aeroplanes made of wood and linen, and powered as they were by the era's tempermental engines. I look foward to hard "rules" being forwarded about the "organic" nature of things.

As personal as people's likes can be, discussing WWI flight models in anything but a "generic" sense is ultimately an execise in assumptions, that one organic example is the same as another.

The whole process of discussing WWI flight models is framed on the assumption that each variant's example is the same as the next......impossible to maintain, but ultimately the only position for moving forward in crafting "WWI flight models".

(what we can expect is no more, and what we can expect is no less) ;\)
Posted By: Sulky Boy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/27/06 12:48 PM

One of the most revealing parts of those pilot training links for me was the amount of maintanence they were expected to do.
If that translates to a pilot's individual aircraft in front line squadrons, I can envisage a progressive adjustment to suit a pilot's liking. Two pilots with varying styles could result in quite a difference.
I'd considered manufacture variations before and crew chief's skills but this was a new thought to me.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/27/06 02:28 PM

Dave,

Your points are well taken!

As a adjunct to my FM "variations" post above, are the issues of riggers skill and pilot preferences (and the bracing accuracy possible in regards to the art of ground-crew maintenance), and/or the state of quality control during the manufacturing process, and also the effects of inclement weather on airframes in the field.

There's the often told story of the Pfalz D.III which was found to have a bag of iron-filings under the pilot's seat as the factory's means of balancing CG on this particular aircraft, and also of the prevalence of the Pfalz's beautifully tapered fuselage to warp under wet conditions and time, imparting interesting aerodynamic qualities to the aircraft.

On the topic of airframe rigging, most ground crews followed the manufacturers instructions for bracing up a plane (with some squadrons/pilots being allowed changes), but how exacting could this overall process be? As an example view the figures on one of my favorite WWI aircraft, the Hannover CL.III, for setting up the incidence, diherdral, and stagger angles for its wings and horizontal stabilizers (typical):



How many specific bracing figures can someone note here?

This is why anecdotal "evidence" of WWI flying characteristics is, while being interesting to note, not totally productive when envisioning a process for actually coding "WWI flight models" for a sim........the very nature of the process requires a certain "generalized-exactitude".

(what we can expect is no more, and what we can expect is no less) ;\)
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/27/06 03:08 PM

Mass production from assembly lines was only just getting into its stride during WWI. Most of these planes were very much made in workshops, with all the individual differences in fittings and bracings that that would entail.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/27/06 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
Mass production from assembly lines was only just getting into its stride during WWI. Most of these planes were very much made in workshops, with all the individual differences in fittings and bracings that that would entail.
A most helpful point for starting any discussion having to do with "WWI flight modeling".
Posted By: fearlesslds

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 12:57 AM

Would like to see shells ejecting from guns like in Blue Max. Is this possible or too much stress on computers.
Posted By: Dart

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 01:54 AM

Naw, we have that in IL-2!

I want an animation of beating on the guns with a hammer!
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 01:56 AM

That would be a good one Dart.......and the Spad 13 has a hammer too! ;\)

Hey Scott,

I would imagine you'll see ammo belts moving during firing, magazine drums rotating, synchronization mechanisms and MGs cycling, and belts, links, and shells ejecting, along with a bit of gunsmoke perhaps to set off the whole sequence nicely. \:\)

The curse of building greater modeling accuracy into sims means that you've got to do something with all the detail when it's made. Along with more simulation accuracy comes the neccessity of animating the objects that have been created.

I'm sure VikS will clarify what's in store for "Knights", but would be surprised if GT is not already working on the issue of gun firing animation.

Btw, have you seen the early developement shots of the Nieuport 17's cockpit? Check out the aileron linkage mechanism in this pic.....not only will the pilot's cockpit controls have to move, but the linkage that transfers the input motion to the control surfaces, and is in view, will need to move also:



Note the large bellcranks in the top wing above the cockpit, these were rotated by linked movement from the control stick, and rotated each aileron through a connected torque tube.....yep, they'll have to move too! \:\)
Posted By: Sulky Boy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 08:13 AM

Yep, our flight sims are about to step up another level, IMO. All that flight sims are a dead end stuff is being swept away by the overall users' computer spec increase.
Elipsoid atmospherics are about to enter our combat world, amongst other things, that'll fascilitate wind shear and other localised wind effects. I'm really excited by the possabilities. Upwind n downwind legs are going to be a real challenge in WW1 period kites. WW2 bombers are going to have a real turbulance behind the stream.
I've seen the future and its really rather nice, with large portions of imersive animations. Now all we'll want is a hot castor oil and cordite aroma dispenser.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 09:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freycinet:
Mass production from assembly lines was only just getting into its stride during WWI. Most of these planes were very much made in workshops, with all the individual differences in fittings and bracings that that would entail.
It's not as bad as you might think or at least with the technology of the times it didn't have to be.

When mass producing even back before 1850 there was use of jigs which were either made at the home factory or detailed drawings sent, the first task would be the toolmakers building jigs. A jig is a frame with places to hold the workpiece and to place tools against to make the cuts. Properly even on things as large as WWI aircraft frames the use of jigs should keep errors to perhaps a centimeter or less. Certainly frame parts from the same same lines fit together, had they not then a jig would have been changed or remade.

Improperly though and in practice as sometimes happened, people didn't follow plans so well and nobody cross checked with dismal results. It was not common but did happen, more in some places where 'craft' was held in a bit too much esteem in some shops. Example is that LMG the French dumped on the US troops who wished they'd brought their own.

Look at how interchangeable so much of pistol and rifle parts were from mid-1800's on. Or steam engine parts. The technology certainly existed in WWI. Even cars, trucks and motorcycles were made for part interchangeability.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sulky Boy:
Elipsoid atmospherics are about to enter our combat world, amongst other things, that'll fascilitate wind shear and other localised wind effects. I'm really excited by the possabilities. Upwind n downwind legs are going to be a real challenge in WW1 period kites.
That sounds fascinating Dave!

One of my greatest flying enjoyments was experiencing convection currents rise off the highways near the end of the grass airfield I flew ultralights out of back in the eighties. The roadbed was elevated at the end of the strip, and when you "cleared the hedge", you could feel the "bump" of the rising air when you traversed over the highway. Plowed dry fields also gave the same effect if you were low enough......it made one feel connected to the world, and at the same time liberated from it........ \:\)

There's a classic WWI-era film clip showing Camels flying in tight formation from a 3/4 frontal view, and they're each pitching up and down as if rising over ocean waves. It'll be nice someday to see our simulated "dead" airspace replaced by a more active element. As you mentioned, vortex currents from wingtips and props also need to be considered someday. In a WWI sim, being able to blast the tail feathers with a burst from the engine would certainly make ground handling more effective (and realistic).

Sulky Boy, are you talkin' here about active air effects for FS X perhaps, and do tell us more about their inclusion into future combat flight sims (if you will).
Posted By: Freycinet

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 01:48 PM

Don't forget that this sim is not properly speaking a "new generation" sim, but is a sim based on the revised Il-2FB engine. I don't expect it too look VERY different from Il-2FB, and don't expect it to have dramatically new features.

If it sells really well, then I'm sure the team will be ready to move into something like BoB-sim territory...
Posted By: Sensei

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 03:23 PM

The key Frey, is that it doesn't have to better than IL2....it pretty much just has to be better than RB3D... ;-)
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 04:59 PM

I agree that we shuldn't set our sights too high.

WW1 action tends to play into the IL2 engine's strngths though, low altitude is where it looks best.
Posted By: tascaso

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 05:36 PM

Exciting stuff and a welcome respite from the current fodder we are all flying. How about the wine and cheese? Is that included! Yum!
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 06:14 PM

Why yes it is Willi......vintage nineteen hundred and three.....but you'll find hard to get!!! \:D \:D \:D
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 06:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:
The key Frey, is that it doesn't have to better than IL2....it pretty much just has to be better than RB3D... ;-)
Absolutely what he said !!

And from flying some biplanes and ( god help me, the P11 ), we already know it WILL.

( Sturm drools some more )
Posted By: Ivor H

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 07:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:
The key Frey, is that it doesn't have to better than IL2....it pretty much just has to be better than RB3D... ;-)
Absolutely what he said !!

And from flying some biplanes and ( god help me, the P11 ), we already know it WILL.

( Sturm drools some more )
No it won't be, unless it has a campaign system that is substantially better than IL2FB/PF.

RB3d's campaign system is still one of the best there is. OFF's bolted-on campaign system for CFS3 looks like it could come close, and it already has very good graphics. I hope the new sim's makers won't forget that sims need more than good FMs, DMs and graphics, and that an immersive campaign system is at least as desirable.
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/28/06 09:53 PM

Ok, point. And as it's based on IL2, there's not a lot can be done about that.

But it's still going to be great !
Posted By: Dart

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 12:16 AM

While I'm not one to write bad about RB3D (after all, the "BA" is for the RFC101 "Black Adders" in my handle there), to make me really happy it only has to slightly better than RB3D.

One can't really talk about RB3D without putting it into the context in which it was made, and the longevity it (still) enjoys.

Yes, I was one of the guys that bought two grand of computer for a forty dollar sim. I remember it fondly, a P90 with a Voodoo Banshee card and other rediculously over the top specs for the time.

And it was worth every penny, though in hindsight I don't think I'll ever upgrade a system for a sim that isn't quite released yet. But such was my passion. And my youth.

When Glide came around the whole thing just dazzled me with the graphics goodness that matched the flight. I missed the little guys running across the front, though.

Then came online flying - wow, I was definately hooked!

The shortfalls of the technological constraints began to show, however. Hitboxes, "ubering" of aircraft when slightly damaged, the solving of AFM with NFM (which had it's own problems) made things a bit distressing at times.

The first time I flew IL-2 and the tracers that came close - but did not hit - my wingtips didn't mean I was headed for the dirt had me leaving the old girl of WWI behind.

Of course by then I figured out that the best part of RB3D was the online community that came with it. I was overjoyed when many RB3D squadrons came over to IL-2.

I must admit the whole dynamic campaign thing was lost on me, even though I flew it offline exclusively for years. Perhaps it's a measure of how well it was done that I never paid much attention to it - I just flew the missions and tried to survive.

The best was fighters scrambling if one got too close to their airdromes. And hearing the church bell if one flew down to it.

At any rate, I'll be buying this WWI sim....
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 01:25 AM

I'm thinking that there is room for the IL2 engine to grow with this sim as things will be happening much more slowly-what with the much slower speeds of the aircraft and all.

On my trip down memory lane, I remember taking some of the money I made from selling a motorcycle and buying a 3Dfx Voodoo V5500 to play RB3D. Man it was heaven-for a while.

I hated the fact that Glide was the only game in town for RB3D, and it hurt to have to upgrade to a card that didn't have the capability.

Yeah, I know they made a Glide wrapper but I'd moved on by then.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Ugly_Kid

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 06:56 AM

Partly it should serve that IL-2 FM is more suited for WW I sim like that - the real shortcomings: high alt and high Mach figure are no conserns of WW I sim. Hopefully, they pay attention to an improved slow speed handling in this regard version 4.xx FM is way ahead of the predecessors where stalling seemed to be more triggered by elevator handling rather than actual angle of attack. That is to say focus is in a different area and the IL-2 FM will actually be relatively better suited. Hope they add really complex engine management, overrevving props and stuff so that life won't become too easy.

As for offline - I was let down with IL-2 and for the reason put it aside pretty quick. Half a year later or more I got a modem connection broke my leg and had more time and started experimenting online - that was that. Wouldn't mind a proper campaign though - it is time a new sim came up with one...For me more important would be elements that enable good online coops and war - bombers being essential, perhaps ground troops. If only troops could be modeled so that one could mix strafing - infantry attack and stuff but I recon it's still too much.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 08:21 AM

IL2 engine is well suited to better campaign than even RB gave. No! Really!

Especially if this new sim will release the screen and inputs to 3rd party generators which is NOT a big step. If users can not only generate the missions but also the presentation then these things are not only possible but they can change and grow over time long after the game is released. Players can choose which they want. Online wars can become more and more sophisticated with NO WORK BY GENNADICH required.

Alternate without releasing control, if the between flyings parts (briefing, debriefing, other imaginables) is presented through web browser as html +and+ 3rd party generator is allowed then 3rd party generator does not have to deal with graphics on different hardware but only to make 'safe' html file able to use prepared graphics and sound as well as generate the mission files and again the things made will in time easily surpass what a budget will allow created. Far surpass, the game becomes more attractive, more sellable. Only problem is to convince publisher but do it once and they should see the worth.
This HTML is perhaps the better way since by html links one presentation can link to others already made and allow many to contribute much more easily.

Please Viks, those are the kinds of elements that have kept otherwise dead sims fresh and sellable for years. If you make that part open it will not affect fidelity of the planes and the makers of generators (I can see team efforts) will have an easier time of it than how it is with say EAW (plugging in values to warp what is there) with results much cleaner and appealing. If later efforts by you allow the same way to work then all the generators will be quickly adaptable to your next product. Consider it as plus value to both game and company reputation.

------------------------------------------------

The biggie for me though would be DF allowing AI planes with mission profiles added during operation. The line between coop and DF erased with programs like FBdaemon in control. We are ready but is it possible?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 09:02 AM

Hello,
some posts above FlyXWire wrote:
"Why yes it is Willi......vintage nineteen hundred and three.....but you'll find hard to get!!!"
Somehow reminds me of the Blue max, was on TV yesterday ;-).
I just stumbled across a newspaper article, someone has rebuilt Karl Jahto's plane from 1903 (rare vintage) and intends to fly it. According to witnesses Jahto made a 60 meter "flight" in 1903 with it. Mr. Lohmann, the constructor who rebuilt it however states he will not believe this crate flies until he's really in the air with it. I can post a picture at photobucket if anyone's interested.
Lohmann intends to fly in september 2006 at Hannover airport - did i say i'll be there ?

Regarding the knights sim from Gennadich i pray for a good immersive campaign and better on-the-ground-graphics than in IL2, maybe à la OFF style ?

Greetings,
Narsinha
Posted By: Mahoney

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 09:03 AM

Quick request for Viks - it would be much appreciated if you could accomodate native support for the Z800 reviewed here:
http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_080a.html

Need to be able to do 800x600 resolution and support the Z800's head tracking API.

I've been waiting for a WWI sim with a 6DOF head mounted display for more than a decade!
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 09:13 AM

Heh heh, if Gennadich are smart, they'll create an object like the air-raid siren ... only it'll only be placed on maps at a church ... and it'll make a noise like a churchbell when you dive on it.

It'll bring tears of joy to old simmers eyes ;\)
Posted By: commorange

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 09:31 AM

its going to be funny when this sim gets canned. I love to read all those hilarious threads about 'Wah I bought a completely nw system for this game' \:D \:D
Posted By: Mahoney

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 09:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by flakwagon:
its going to be funny when this sim gets canned. I love to read all those hilarious threads about 'Wah I bought a completely nw system for this game' \:D \:D
I've never yet seen anyone buy a new system for an unpublished WWI flight sim, and goodness knows I've followed a few.

Shame to be so twisted that this is the only comment you feel like making.
Posted By: Sturm_Williger

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 10:42 AM

I upgraded my rig for BoB.

The fact that it will run the new WWI sim like a greased pig down a bobsleigh run is just icing !
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/29/06 11:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mahoney:
I've never yet seen anyone buy a new system for an unpublished WWI flight sim, and goodness knows I've followed a few.

Shame to be so twisted that this is the only comment you feel like making.
LOL Mahoney......hey, we've replaced a few during the wait......that counts, right?
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/30/06 01:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by flakwagon:
its going to be funny when this sim gets canned. I love to read all those hilarious threads about 'Wah I bought a completely nw system for this game' \:D \:D
Don't know whatcher personal problem is but I wish you wouldn't 'share'.

Not enough love or too little discipline maybe... why else the _delight_ in screwing with others that ain't done you harm?
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/30/06 02:36 PM

BIG GT update today!

The Sopwith Dolphin (certainly one of the best and most overlooked fighters of the war):



The beautiful but combat-limited Nieuport 28:



And last but certainly not least, the WIP on the cockpit of the Fokker D.VII:



(hey, is that a high-altitude oxygen cannister I see there just below the pilot's seat)

Btw, =FB=LOFT says this will be the last forum update.......next week will see the updates on GT's company website.

Today's update here:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1906

Next week's update here:

http://www.gennadich.com
Posted By: Trip

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/30/06 02:50 PM

:coooool:
Posted By: Barkhorn1x

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/30/06 02:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
Quote:
Originally posted by flakwagon:
its going to be funny when this sim gets canned. I love to read all those hilarious threads about 'Wah I bought a completely nw system for this game' \:D \:D
Don't know whatcher personal problem is but I wish you wouldn't 'share'.

Not enough love or too little discipline maybe... why else the _delight_ in screwing with others that ain't done you harm?
DFTT

Barkhorn.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/30/06 03:06 PM

Hey, for you guys looking forward to clearing those gun stoppages.....get a grip....



....on those babies! \:D
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/30/06 03:55 PM

Sopwith Dolphin

Wow RAF No. 19 Squadron's bread and butter plane nice one \:\)

Ming
Posted By: Heini von Seppel

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/30/06 05:55 PM

Man those are beautiful !

Will there be a Albatros fighter of some kind ?
How about a Pfalz DIII, I know theres a DXII already?
Posted By: Lowengrin

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/30/06 08:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:
...it doesn't have to better than IL2....it pretty much just has to be better than RB3D... ;-)
Ain't that the truth.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/31/06 02:22 AM

Those images are too beautiful to describe!

I

CAN'T

WAIT!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Mahoney

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/31/06 07:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mahoney:
I've never yet seen anyone buy a new system for an unpublished WWI flight sim, and goodness knows I've followed a few.

Shame to be so twisted that this is the only comment you feel like making.
LOL Mahoney......hey, we've replaced a few during the wait......that counts, right?
Actually, I've just bought my first new computer since 2000! They have come on a bit from my old Athlon 1Ghz with Voodoo 5500 card. Looking forward to buying the Il-2 all-in-one and seeing what flight-sims look like in the modern age.

And I have to say I have a better feeling about this than any of the previous efforts. Wings with Wires were always on a no-win trying to do it in their spare time as a hobby. But here, working with a tried and proven engine and kicking out reular updates, and with the benefit of working somewhere where the cost of living makes it more practical - I think they have a very real chance of getting this one to market.
Posted By: Mahoney

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/31/06 07:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lowengrin:
Quote:
Originally posted by WWSensei:
...it doesn't have to better than IL2....it pretty much just has to be better than RB3D... ;-)
Ain't that the truth.
They could use the Il-2 enginee as is with new models, maps and campaigns and I'd be pretty happy. It's been so long...
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 03/31/06 12:09 PM

Hey, seeing all these "well-worn" previews over and over again gives me a good feeling about this one. \:D

*paint chips* *mars* *oil residue*

(GT seems just fine with taking the extra time required for adding such embellishments). ;\)
Posted By: jeanba

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/03/06 09:36 AM

A slightly Off topic question :
DFo you know a good historical WWI forum ?

Thank you in advance
Posted By: Mangrove

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/03/06 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jeanba:

DFo you know a good historical WWI forum ?
For aviation part of WW1, Aerodrome is the best.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/
Posted By: jeanba

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/03/06 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mangrove:
Quote:
Originally posted by jeanba:

DFo you know a good historical WWI forum ?
For aviation part of WW1, Aerodrome is the best.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/
Thank you, I will have a look, before playing ...
Posted By: Mahoney

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/03/06 02:53 PM

Just did a quick look through. At present Gennadich have shown us these planes:

Allied Scouts
Nieuport 17 *!
Nieuport 28 *!
Sopwith Camel F.1 *!
Sopwith Dolphin I
Sopwith Pup *!
Sopwith 7F.1 Snipe *
SPAD VII.C1 *
SPAD XIII C.1 *!

Allied Multi-seat planes
Airco DH4 *
Airco DH9 !
Bristol F.2b *!

German Scouts
Fokker D.VII *!
Fokker DrI *!
Pfalz D.XII *


German Multi-seat planes
DFWC 5
GOTHA *
Halberstadt CL.2 *!
Rumpler C.IV *

* present in Red Baron II/3D
! present in Flying Corps

Which leaves these planes which were present in either RB or FC:

Allied Scouts
Airco DH2
Morane Bullet
Nieuport 11
Nieuport 24
SE5a
Sompith Triplane

Allied Multi-seat planes
BE2
Breguet 14
FE2b
Handley-Page
RE8
Salmson 2a2
Sopwith 1.5 Strutter

German Scouts
Albatros DII
Albatros DIII
Albatros DVa
Fokker E.III
Halberstadt DII
Pfalz DIII

German Multi-seat planes
Albatros CIII
Aviatik C.I
Hannover CLII
Roland CII

I imagine the SE5a and the Albatros DIII and DVa are almost definitely on the list to be modelled; probably the Sopwith Triplane too. Interesting to see what we do wnd up with; to the best of my knowledge the Dolphin is a first appearance in a commercial sim.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/03/06 05:44 PM

I can sooooooo live with pay-for addons!
Even more than with IL2/FB which I have all of!

Perhaps addons can be through Steam?
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/04/06 03:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
I can sooooooo live with pay-for addons!
Even more than with IL2/FB which I have all of!
Me too Neal......it's a scheme I've been trying to impress upon both Third Wire and GT's designers recently.....and one I promoted on the SimHQ forum here for Aspect's now defunct Knights Over Europe effort way back when. ;\)

Incorporating the add-on (modular) build concept into a sim's original design and marketing plans makes so much sense today.

First, considering a build process that can span multiple expansion modules, acknowledges the complexities and market forces that make it difficult to get a combat flight sim from the designer's drawing board to the retailer's product shelves these days. Obviously, if a project fails to meet it's required development deadlines, it is in jeopardy of ever being released. We've seen many promising sims come and go (for the WWI era especially), and much of this legacy of failure has occurred because design teams were too small to the task, or the original concept was too unmanageble in size and scope to be sensibly realized.

I remember harping on the KOE forum years ago that "less is more", and that when a design team entertains the idea of making a high-fidelity simulation, they should at first think about their "survival"......that is, being able to sustain the quality and intergrity of their build-process over time, and being able to deliver a product at the end of that process. With this imperative in mind, delivering a high-quality, marketable product in a timely manner becomes the most important objective.....without delivery, all else is failure.

In this same vein then, careful consideration should be made of how to deliver on the desired end-goal with the resources available, while minimizing the difficulties that threaten that goal. In this regards, designers and customers need to allow themselves the latitude to realize success, by making the goal attainable from the onset, and by keeping the on-going process practical. In this regard "doing less is more" becomes the imperative, in that keeping the build process targeted, promotes the attainment of the ultimate objective.....delivering a high-quality product at the end of the process. So from the beginning of the process, when analysing what sim package can be practically designed should occur, the ultimate goal of final delivery must be weighed against what the market will support. This is where customer expectations enter into the equation of whether a product, once delivered, is ultimately successful.......what ultimately are those most important customer expectations that must be fulfilled!

This is the area I reserve my criticism for not only a sim's designers, but for us simmers too, in that designers must have the discipline to realize that they can't deliver on each customer's personal expectations, but that they must try to satisfy their ultimate objective of finally delivering that marketable product that most cutomers will want to buy. As simmers and potential customers, we also have a responsibility in allowing designers to reach their goals of final delivery, and that once realized, that the end-product is something that will satisfy our expectations. As an example, would it be practical for us simmers to expect the inclusion of one hundred high-quality aircraft in an equally high-quality, high-fidelity sim today, before we would consider buying it? Should WWI simmers demand up-front that the whole land mass of Flanders & England should be modeled, and with requisite detail, before we would consider buying that either? Demanding delivery, and maintaining expectations that are impractical to realize, and ultimately unrealistic to hold, does neither sim designers or us customers any good. In the end, maintaining impossible expectations can mean the failure of both designers and customers to realize their mutual goal......having a product delivered to the marketplace in the end.

With these factors in mind, the process of building a sim's content over a series of mutually complimentary releases, would seem like a way to assure delivery of both. The modular "add-on" concept allows the designer's time to accomplish their goals in a timely manner, while allowing simmers to receive continued support on their original investment. The add-on scheme allows for a mutually supporting and beneficial "system" to coexist between the producer of a product and the users of the product, in that it inherently recognizes that both sides of the marketplace need each other to survive!

In summation (finally), I think most simmers recognize we depend on the survival of game designers to be able to get the products we desire to buy, and without their staying in business we have little chance of seeing our hobby continuing on into the future. For this reason we must mutally support each other, and both get something out of our relationship together. Like many consumers nowadays, I have high expectations over the products I'm willing to buy, but I also realize that what I buy expresses what I value too. In the end I'm casting a vote for what I individually value, want, and need. I think most us here on this SimHQ forum want to allow GT to be successful at giving us something we're wanting, and are hoping the relationship results in our mutual benefit. I'm also hoping GT will be around to continue their support of this and maybe other products, so that this hobby of ours continues to grow and prosper into the future........those are my greatest expectations (and desires). ;\)
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/04/06 05:39 PM

Very well written. The nail has truly been hit precisely on the head.

I'm willing to start off with a basic core selection of aircraft operating in a relatively confined area-especially if I'm assured that bigger and better things are to come in the near future.

If it looks real purdy and they fly real good, I can live wid it for a bit. ;\)

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/04/06 06:12 PM

I can see that the addon model might need some things:

1) All addons should not be required to play online. What maps and planes are used should be by the server.

2) Same for offline, the mission sets the needs.

3) The sim engine should be set in concrete, new version means new game. It will make addons not needing updates and always the same standard for addon makers, see #5.

4) Distribution of addons... avoid stores and go direct online? This part is MOST difficult to beat piracy. However below I try to show a way to do this.

5) Gennadich able to have outside parties make planes, maps, whatever, with approval on a percentage fee basis.

Piracy limit strategy:
Game purchased must be registered and given a unique registration number to play. Addon purchase would require the registration. Addon would be keyed to only that registration.

Not perfect by any means as one person could still make copies for friends but one sale being made into 1000's of game copies becomes less feasable when the addons those people want must also be provided by the same a-hole that made the copies. A few questions in register, not just what is your number and copies floating around do get known by the makers who flag that registration for no more addons. Since addons come out over time there is time to kill the pirate copies.
Not perfect but compare to copy protection on disk that gets broken quickly and limits legitimate sales.

Just some ideas. I am sure that marketing and business people can improve on or point out the fatal flaws in them.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/04/06 10:29 PM

Neal,

I think I agree with with your points 1 & 2, if you're expressing that adding content such as maps, planes, and mission packs should remain a choice, and by electing to add or not add content should not cause an online server to loose functionality, or for a person's game to become obsolete (no one is wanting anyone to be forced to buy add-on content if they don't want too). This is why I see "patches" and "add-ons" as performing different functions, with patches aimed at upgrading a sim's core code (and this upgrading should remain free as has been the gaming industry practice), while add-on modules would allow for the expansion of the sim's coverage, with new models and any needed maps and missions included, and these modules would be purchased for a fee. Still, any code changes needed to enable new add-on content to function, or to upgrade the basic sim's operation should remain available for anyone wanting to patch their installation for free.

The boon to a designer-driven add-on scheme, is that it would represent the "official" means of expanding a sim's core content. Having the originators of the sim involved in its on-going expansion would go a long way towards promoting the quality of new add-on content, and control it's availability, while assuring its compatability when installed, as well as any on-going support needed.

Another bonus to an officially-sanctioned (and promoted) add-on concept, could be the greater frequency that new content could become available, and the modest per unit charge needed to cover the production and profit costs to market these new modules. With more nominal pricing being possible with this scheme of more frequent expansion availabilty, some might even feel less inclined to pirate new content, because it would be so relatively inexpensive to buy in the first place!

Now let me to link some artwork that I previewed on GT's forum awhile back, showing just some ideas of what these add-on packs could cover (we're not talking big "title-like" expansions here, but contained and "themematic" content):





Allowing each of us to select which modules we choose to include in our sim's expansion, giving us the option to "grow our own sim" over time.......to custom tailor our sim's content to the periods and plane's which we most want to try. I have a feeling that most of us in the end will want to get them all.....especially if it's an affordable process to do so.....which should be a hallmark of the whole concept anyway (as conceived from the start). ;\)

Hey, let me also thank Copterdrvr for his comments and input into the conversation here, as well as those ideas that Neal is expanding on......besides talkin' about this stuff comes easy, but in some small way maybe it could result in some tangible, and positive results......who knows! \:\)
Posted By: Oilburner

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/04/06 10:37 PM

!!ENGLANDGESCHWADER!!

I think I'm looking forward to GT's sim more than BOB.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/04/06 10:46 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention that the above expansion "themes" were grafted onto artwork by Stan Stokes (which I took off an advertising website), and they represent hypothetical ideas about add-on modules for GT's upcoming WWI sim.

"!!ENGLANDGESCHWADER!!"

I like that one too Oilburner. \:\)
Posted By: Sulky Boy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/05/06 04:13 AM

Gilman Louie showed the way ahead with his very sucessful Falcon3.
The base sim was followed by Mig-29 and F-18 addons and additional campaign locations. Each spread the work load and maintained sales of the base sim well past the normal first wave.
The addons had the cash flow equivalent of a new sim going out the door every six months. That suported and maintained an enthusiastic team for several years.
The same was intended with Falcon4 but we can see the result when Gilman sold and the new management abandoned the base strategy.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/05/06 09:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sulky Boy:
The addons had the cash flow equivalent of a new sim going out the door every six months. That suported and maintained an enthusiastic team for several years.
That's what we're talkin' about.....maintaining enthusiasm (and support) for both the design team, as well as for the sim's fan-base, with more frequent content releases.

Hey a bit off the present subject, but related to Oilburner's enthusiastic post above, here's a good link to a bit of history on the Englandgeschwader:

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/tgenth/gotha/GothaGIVe.htm#p2e
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/05/06 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
Hey a bit off the present subject, but related to Oilburner's enthusiastic post above, here's a good link to a bit of history on the Englandgeschwader:

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/tgenth/gotha/GothaGIVe.htm#p2e [/QB]
Quote:
instead of a radio - pigeons were used for communications
:D

Actually I seem to remember reading that pigeons were carried by long range flying boats on patrol in WW2.
Posted By: Double_Tap

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/05/06 11:51 AM

http://www.gennadich.com/

It's very quiet in here.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/05/06 12:03 PM

DEATH FROM ABOVE! ;\)

Just had to take these pics of "Stumpy", on displayed at the USAF Museum:





(hoping his story will be legible here) \:D
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/05/06 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tAA_Double_Tap:
http://www.gennadich.com/

It's very quiet in here.
Looks like they're in the process of upgrading their website today, for the announced transfer of the WWI updates to the front page.

Maybe GT will change the appearance of their homepage too, with a sporting new WWI-theme look? \:\)
Posted By: PE_Tigar

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/05/06 02:50 PM

Just one comment on the subject of online distribution--I've bought HL2 with Steam a while ago just to see how it works, and I must say that the concept is truly great. Implementation is a bit iffy, having in mind that at least in Europe loading a game can take hours, if not days. However, there's one other thing that's crucial and hasn't been mentioned here: online distribution puts the developer back into the saddle. Online distro guys take thir hefty share of revenu, that's true, but it's like 4x less than the traditional publishers do (as I hear from friends in game development industry). So for me, that would be a no-brainer. Add to that constant and immediate feed of updates, news etc...
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/05/06 03:59 PM

Absolutely Tigar....design teams should be receiving more return on their work! Not only could online distribution transform the established publisher/designer business relationship, but the smaller add-ons could be sold "factory-direct", being more easily downloaded than complete sims/games can be. With the core simulation working to establish the title's market, the follow-up modules could be sold direct to the customer, allowing the designers to bypass the traditional distribution system.

Hey btw, I noticed there's been some changes to GT's website today:

http://www.gennadich.com/lang/en/id/69/
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/05/06 04:16 PM

Any chance of an early build ingame screenshot to see the terrain and sky? It's in the title.

I like the shots of the 3D models but I remember pizza.

Will the terrain be as good as Wings of War's? Better is ok.

Ming
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/05/06 07:25 PM

I understand that Gennadich is expected to release a DEMO at the E3......

FXW, a completed engine will let Gennadich pursue the next sim engine with one part of the team while the others both work on in-house addons and get 3rd party people to speed on more addons for a cut of those profits. Effectively they expand their employee base and the number of planes, maps and other models becomes large quicker.

Why no changes to the engine? Because most every such change ends up with every plane needing to be reworked in FM, DM or some other. It creates a work backlog that we see with IL2 series is not caught up with. That is bad when one company makes it all but worse when you have 3rd party planes which is not just 3D models but FM and all.

It is much harder to code for a moving target, not worth it very soon and red ink right after. Being able to give the assurance of no such changes would be part of the business end of getting others to make the pay-for addons. Also addon makers can see the base product and know this is what is, not hear about what is supposed to be and guess how long before they can work to that.

We also get something that we don't have to relearn every few months.

Perhaps first there has to be teething time before the addons can be possible but face it, the IL2 engine part is mature already.

And then, play this for however long while watching for addons and the next level that... if it could somehow use the same addons then the sales would be incredible.

Why you don't like the register and piracy limiting part?
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/06/06 12:18 AM

It'd be great if they could incorporate the AGEIA PHYSX card into the mix. They could really get knarly with the low level graphics!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/06/06 01:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
I understand that Gennadich is expected to release a DEMO at the E3......
Well that would be fantastic.....if only to see these great models in motion, and maybe with some knarly low level graphics too!!! \:D

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal:
Why you don't like the register and piracy limiting part?
It's just that I really don't have much of an opinion on that Neal.

You guys can tell me, but is piracy of flight sims a major issue in the market these days?

In regards to the add-on scheme, the focus behind the concept is to allow each fan to customize his own sim's content to reflect his individual taste, by adding only the expansion modules each simmer most wants to fly, and that these additions would be supported and seen as "standard options available". Having official add-ons makes the whole issue of multiplayer compatability more manageable, and with a little imagining here, I could see in the future someone's "Knights" server being listed online as "Bob's BOB server" for example, where players could connect to fly missions in that 'first' Battle of Britian, of course if they had the Zeppelin "Raiders" module and the "Englandgeschwader" module installed on their systems.....(hypothetically speaking here of course). Still, at the same time, there could/would be other online servers hosting the base sim with maybe the "Kaiserschlacht" aircraft pack for instance, and these servers would be for fans wanting to fly ground attack missions mostly.

I don't see many pitfalls with the add-on concept for fans who wish mostly to fly single-player missions and campaigns, but it's with multiplayer that problems could arise due to too many options, and variables. This is where having official module releases would help keep the whole process of expanding content more manageable, and at the same time accommodate the varied interest of the simming community at large. There could be Knights furball servers, bomber mission servers, ground attack servers, coastal patrol servers, late-war servers, Italian Front servers, etc., all enabled by an on-going process of building on the sim's original format. This type of add-on process would embrace the fact that our playing interest do vary and change over time, and utilize that interest by allowing the game's form to evolve over time too.

Couldn't you just imagine sitting down some evening in the not too distant future, and firing up your Knights install....hmmmm you ask yourself, what do I feel like flying tonight? Do I want to try some more armored Junkers J.I missions in Kaiserschlacht again, nah, did that Monday. Hey I know, I'm going to connect up again with Copterdrvr's AEF Eagles group, and fly one of those late-war missions to the German frontier that were so fun on his server last month.......man, I love the DH4!

Just some imagining of course, but with greater variety, and options, comes the potential for more complexity and the issues that can occur with having lots of choice. This is why I could see a scheme of official add-ons.....or perhaps officially sanctioned second-party content as helping to keep everything tidy.

At least that's some thinking of how to keep any future "Kaiserschlacht" of ours manageable. \:\)
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/06/06 11:00 AM

It would be best if stuff could be added while retaining MP compatibility, that's probably not feasible though.
Posted By: PE_Tigar

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/06/06 02:02 PM

There's one easy solution to that--sell the flyable planes, and other can download ground models and non-flyable planes for free. In MP those without the update have to fly the stuff they paid for=can't choose the new stuff to fly but can fly against it. I bet you most people would buy all updates then anyway, but those on constrained budget or simply not interested in the new stuff could opt out.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/06/06 07:40 PM

Hey Guys,

Apparently GT is having a few problems implementing their new website updates this week, so =FB=LOFT has continued with their forum previews. Today's screenshots are of buildings and habitat objects (some of that knarly low level stuff Copterdrvr was lookin' for). \:\)

Here's a pic of one of the busiest houses in any wartime French village......



......and the brothel's.....um, house's courtyard on laundry day. \:D



Check out the latest in WWI-era French architecture here:

http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1906
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/06/06 11:39 PM

Wow, I wonder if we'll be able to fly through some laundry like was done in "Those Magnificent Men in thier Flying Machines"! \:D

THAT is some knarly detailing Dude!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 01:06 AM

I can see people buying addons as they can afford them at prices that will pay the model makers better. In time all the real fans will buy every addon anyway, I Am Sure.

Addons should be able to plug in but how many different ones in the same time? How much RAM will be needed, even just on the video cards to accomodate textures? I remember my RB3D machine being brought to its knees over 1998-1999 when at an online meet the card I had was overwhelmed with custom paints. Every new player with status for one that joined dropped my FR another couple frames till I saw 2 FPS and finally had a collision with another plane a good 50m off to the left and dropped the connect. That was my last event as JG/I as my life took a bad turn itself.

I do hope that this sim will not require massive upgrades to play.
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 01:12 AM

Ageia physics card? Please not!

It is new technology by one maker with no industry standard yet. To tie an upcoming sim line to that is a crap shoot.

Wait for the dust to settle and remember your voodoo cards (I had 3 different ones, all given away) and Beta VCR.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 01:54 AM

Easy there big fella! I'm sure that the Ageia card and the associated software could be implemented in such a manner that it'd be a benefit for those who had it installed, and not at the expense of those that don't. ;\)

I know that if it would allow me to fly over the front and witness thousands of troops leaping out of thier miserable trenches and make the desperate dash across No-Mans Land, I'm for it.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: PC777

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 02:16 AM

Hi been following this thread with great interest & anticipation.

Hi to FlyXwire S~

So when is this Flight Sim going to get it's own forum in the Air Combat Zone section??

PC
Posted By: HammFist

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by copterdrvr:
I know that if it would allow me to fly over the front and witness thousands of troops leaping out of thier miserable trenches and make the desperate dash across No-Mans Land, I'm for it.
We had that in the Original Red Baron -- on a 286. When they went "3D" we lost the little guys.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HammFist:
We had that in the Original Red Baron -- on a 286. When they went "3D" we lost the little guys.
I remember it well. I would cruise the front for what seemed like hours to find an attack taking place. Then it was my turn!

And I want it back!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 12:52 PM

Do they need to be 3D? Surely 2D would be enough, like the guys that jump out of the enemy trucks in IL2. The IL2 running truckers don't seem to cause any framerate problem at all. Looking out of the side of the cockpit from at least a few hundred feet and 100mph or so absolute detail isn't important.
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 01:06 PM

It is new technology by one maker with no industry standard yet. To tie an upcoming sim line to that is a crap shoot

You skimmed my 'hooks into Aegeia' slightly-info post Neal please give it up mate or I'll start again \:\)

Ming
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 04:30 PM

No-no! Start again!

A sim that's supposed to do both ways and work on a wide range of PC's would have to have that from the foundation.

2D ground troops? What happens when you get low?

EAW has the little men but only squad and crew numbers.

I do imagine that some version of a vehicle type object could look like troops. There would have to be multiple versions if they needed to be animated. And more, trench version as well as charging attack and cut down dead versions.
It would take something like that that can be plugged into a display system without regard for where the ground is perhaps rolling or broken. But hey, if half the little man is in the ground that is no biggie. It is the ones who would be walking on air that would be the problems.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 06:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PC777:

Hi to FlyXwire S~
Hi Paul!!! \:\)

Hey, maybe it's time you linked your Omaka Aerodrome photos here:



Won't be long and we'll all be getting into one of these.......virtually!
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/07/06 07:52 PM

Man, those guys had B@LLS!

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Neal

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/08/06 12:08 AM

I'me tring to remember who were the #'s 1 & 2 French Aces at the time of one story.

In the bar the then #1 stood up, announced he is the top ace of France and also has the biggest schlong which he then pulls out and lays on the table to back his talk up. So the #2 ace gets up, says he is 2nd best, pulls his out and notes his hairs are more neatly trimmed.

Very Gallic; No Fear! Modesty is for pansies.
Posted By: PC777

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/08/06 08:04 AM

OK - If anyone is interested, here are some photo's from Easter last year At Omaka in New Zealand.

Let me know if you would like an original full size copy of any of them, they are about 2 Mb in size.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v640/pc777/Classis%20FIghters%202005/WW1/

You can find out more about this bi-annual airshow from here:

http://www.classicfighters.co.nz/

Regards

PC
Posted By: Brigstock

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/08/06 09:34 AM

Superb shots you got there PC777...Thanks for sharing
Posted By: Ming_EAF19

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/08/06 11:44 AM

It is the ones who would be walking on air that would be the problems

I hereby assert my right to the Hovercraft trademark.

Ming
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/08/06 12:05 PM

Awesome pics!

Any history on the place? How the heck did they come up with so many awesome aircraft?

Copterdrvr
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/08/06 12:57 PM

Copterdrvr,

Here's a page from the Classic Fighters 2005 Souvenir Handbook
(which btw features a few of PC777 photos in it), and gives a
bit of the Omaka Aerodrome history:



I don't think the guys from Classic Fighters will mind me including this above scan,
and again, to access their excellent online website link here:

http://www.classicfighters.co.nz
Posted By: Sulky Boy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/08/06 01:01 PM

Having a couple of multi-millionaires helps. Add a couple of syndicates and bobs your uncle.
Lousy typos - CA-19! , harumph
Posted By: Aeronautico

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/08/06 01:05 PM

It'd be nice to have a couple of those buildings available in IL-2's FMB...
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/08/06 09:26 PM

I must be missing something here. Are all of the a/c replicas or just the Bristol?

Copterdrvr
Posted By: Dart

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/09/06 12:20 AM

The WWI Mecca still has to be Rhinebeck, New York.

It is worth the journey to see an Alby D.V.a and a Sopwith Camel in a mock dogfight....

http://www.oldrhinebeck.org/collection_airplane.htm
Posted By: Sulky Boy

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/09/06 03:17 AM

Copterdrvr,
"For the 2005 airshow we are expecting ten to twelve full-size World War One replica aircraft to take part in the flying display and dogfight sequences. These include the syndicate owned Fokker Dr.1 Triplane built and operated by Stuart Tantrum"

Seems the 5 triplanes are replicas. So that leaves 5 other replicas amongst the roll call.
Posted By: PC777

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/09/06 07:27 AM

There are no known surviving original Fokker Dr.1 Triplanes in the world today.

See this excellent site on Dr.1’s.

http://www.fokkerdr1.com/

There are very few original WW1 survivors anywhere still kept flying.
The Sopwith Camel at Omaka has many original parts including the engine, however it is also a replica.

I was also wondering which one of you guys bid on this?

http://www.vintageaerofabrics.com/auction/index.htm

Also although I can’t find the original eBay entry, here is an article relating to an Original Sopwith Camel that came on the market recently.

http://www.bornrich.org/entry/original-sopwith-camel-up-for-sale-on-ebay

Here is an add for it:

http://www.vintageaviation.net/Original%20Sopwith%20Camel.htm

I have a link somewhere with more detailed information about it, I will post it if I can find it soon.

Now I wonder how long before we can get a USB caster oil blowing device for the PC to get that extra realism from this upcoming sim….

Old Rhinbeck sure is something, I think considering the population of NZ they have not done a bad effort.

PC
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/09/06 12:44 PM

I want that DR.I replica....$82,00(1) would be a steal!!!

Here's the "original" Sopwith Camel eBay advert (I just had to save this one to my Photobucket album when I saw it)!



There really wasn't much left of the original Camel to start the restoration process from, but they did have the airframe's serial plate.

(so it's claimed as an original restoration and not called a replica)



Hey, the USAF has hosted WWI Fly-ins at Wright-Patterson airfield in Dayton, Ohio every two years recently......

http://www.pigstompers.net/fly-in/fly-in.htm

Here's some I took in 2003:

Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/10/06 02:29 PM

Gee, I guess this will shoot the "we don't have any idea about the real FM for this era" guys right in the nads.

Looks to me they'll have a crapload of "real" performance numbers to start with.

Copterdrvr
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/10/06 04:22 PM

Well nobody much pushes a replica or restored aircraft like their life depended on it as in real combat.........largely because of those "real" numbers displayed above ($$).

Researching WWI "FMs" takes you all the way back "to the beginning". If you understand them, you'll understand anything that comes along later.
Posted By: Mogster

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/10/06 06:00 PM

Besides these are all complete replicas made using modern materials.

Beautifull though they are there's very little of the original about these aircraft. You couldn't really use them for valid performance data, they may be similar but there not the same.
Posted By: FlyXwire

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/10/06 06:42 PM

Well.....take the Fokker DR.Is and the Fokker D.VII in those Dayton pictures of mine above, they are exact replicas using the same materials, or as close to the same materials as the originals were constructed of. They use welded steel tubing in their airframes as Fokker did, and the wings are made of wood with the same airfoils as on the originals......along with being linen fabric covered and varnished doped. They all use original WWI powerplants, of appropriate horespower (albeit French Le Rhones for the rotaries), and therefore they swing the big coarse-pitch props optimized for their low rpm powerplants. Other features such as the MGs, fuel tankage, instruments, etc. are originals or copies of originals, so weight and distribution is near historical. The Fokker D.VII even has the vertical stablizer incidence adjustor, to position the surface's fixed angle to counteract torque in the air.....they are very exacting duplicates.

However, no one is going to push these planes to their limits in mock air combats testing their aerodynamic or structural limits, they're too valuable, and what would be the purpose today to risk the chance of damage or worse by pushing the envelope? Some flight impressions of replicas are very valuable, even to learning about stall characteristics, but many details of razor-edge maneuvering will have to come from the historical accounts. This is one thing that will be fascinating about GT's attempt to "update" the IL-2 engine for early aviation flight.....there will be much discovery in store, as the flight models of these legendary warbirds are "reverse-engineered" back to life.

No one should ever expect a sim engine to recreate an aeroplane's complex flight characteristics, but we should see some very authentic-like fascimilies, and that ought to be exciting enough in itself! \:\)
Posted By: Oilburner

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced - 04/10/06 10:05 PM

I don't think many pilots would enjoy flying a true replica of any of the rotary engined planes with the magneto interrupt "throttle". I saw the video of the Sopwith Camel (with the spitfire) and that thing just looked a little to dangerous to be fun. You have to be in utter amazement though of the people who designed them and those that flew them.
Posted By: Copterdrvr

Re: WWI sim, based on the IL-2 en