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#738645 - 03/10/01 08:17 AM I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,223
Silverswift Offline
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Silverswift  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,223
Milwaukee WI
I have a P3 1000 w/512RAM, and a GeForce Ultra 64. I loved Empire, and their razor egded stand on the ultimate in simulation, always respected ALL of their sims since 1996 (starting w/GS's Hornet & Flying Corps), but I have to stand to protest; this BoB is all wrong, and all bad! I'll start by saying all is not lost, a big patch will make this sim king, but as it stands now, it's not even worthy of it's own topic. Seriously, how many people got this sim to install correctly from the CD the first time? How many crashes are acceptable in when you try to exit the game? I mean, it's ridicolous. "Paint Ball" extreme, made for about $15,000 had less CTDs. And all the while, CFS2 (BTW, I'm definately not a cheerleadr for MS) gets average and below average reviews. Well, it never crashed on me once, and I don't think anyone can say that graphically, or physics-wise for that matter, it's inferior to BoB. But, everyone hates it! Why, just because MS made it! This BoB really needs to be addressed. I bought it from the UK when it first came out, and have'nt heard a peep about a patch. BoB SUCKS! (right now at least).


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#738646 - 03/10/01 01:33 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 850
Borton Offline
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Borton  Offline
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Posts: 850
Wiltshire, England
Sorry, I can't agree with you!
I've never really had any problem with it, apart from the fact that I'm just not good enough.
Mind you, I am fortunate to have a spare PC which I can devote entirely to combat sims. I did have trouble when I upgraded it because I had omitted to update all the various drivers and DirectX. Try doing this and things may improve.
By the way, if you have a screensaver running, turn the bally thing off! Same applies to a virus checker.

------------------
Wizard prang!
Biggles


Biggles

#738647 - 03/10/01 02:06 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 267
Katabatic Mike Offline
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Katabatic Mike  Offline
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Rose Hill, Iowa, USA
I haven't had any problems with the program either, Silverswift. I haven't seen any CTDs and the installation was fine. There haven't been many other complaints regarding mission exit crashes so I wonder if it is something within your system? Try Borton's suggestions and make sure everything is up to date. I will say that once BoB is installed it will take a while to get it optimized to run, there are a LOT of tweaking possibilities in the game's configuration.

I think people were disappointed in MS's CFS2 for a variety of reasons. The game had poor AI ( which it's predecessor also suffered ), the gun damage to objects within the game are overblown....i.e.- you can sink a large ship with a short burst of MG fire, the mission structure is strange and the way some missions complete their objectives were highly unrealistic, and so on. I'm not going to list all my grips with the game, but it had many issues that were lessened it's gameplay value.

I'm not even touching a comparison to "Paint Ball"......if CTDs are your primary problem it isn't within the game. Many players are running it just fine.

------------------
Katabatic Mike


Katabatic Mike
#738648 - 03/10/01 02:44 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,341
maususer Offline
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maususer  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,341
Detroit
I too had no problems with BoB install or CTD's (athlon 1gig, 320 RAM, V5). I initially got the cd rom error after mission completion, but that was fixed quickly by setting desktop to 1024x768. The stutter had me upset, but after turning off FSAA and running in 1024x864 w/32 bit it runs fine now.

I own alot of sims and enjoy each of them for different reasons. I fly CFS2 for eyecandy and Pacific planes, carrier ops, etc., but it's campaign is lacking for me, and I feel that it's too easy to shoot down enemys (even with realistic flight and ace AI). In fact, after 7 missions of CFS2, I have 20 aircombat kills. I guess I'd be the top ace in the Pacific, while my wingmen struggle to get 1 kill. I'm not bashing CFS2, it has it's pros and cons, just as BoB or any other sim for that matter. BoB is also not the valhalla of flight sims, but I think Rowan focused alot on the campaign and perhaps not enough attention to some other issues. In order to get 200+ aircraft dogfights, they probably had to sacrifice some graphics. I'd hate to see my fps in CFS2 with that many planes in the air. People have different tastes, so some people just prefer CFS2 over BoB and vice versa. We are all waiting for that elusive valhalla flight sim, which will runs on all machines, no bugs or CTD's, dynamic campaign, great graphics, great damage model, great AI, great physics model, customizable with a wealth of tweakable settings, etc. It's a tall order for any software company.

#738649 - 03/10/01 04:59 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 735
DanW Offline
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DanW  Offline
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Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 735
Austin, TX
I just picked up this game and it's awesome..

Sure, the GFX sux and the frame rate is kinda choppy, but it's very immersive to fly.

Only complaint I had is my game didn't come with a keyboard commands card..but it's going back to EB till I get one that has the card

It locked up on me once..but no crashes to desktop.


Hook'em Horns
#738650 - 03/10/01 05:09 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,223
Silverswift Offline
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Silverswift  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,223
Milwaukee WI
You guys sure are nice around here! I did try it on my friends system for a bit, and it apparently had the same trouble I am having. BTW, I have a Kenwood True X 72 speed CD. Sometimes, however, I do think that thing spins way too fast for it's own good. But, before I got the Ultra, I was getting the ALT-X CTD one in maybe five times. With the Ultra (also went from 256RAM to 512RAM), it crashes every single time, whether it's in the campaign engine, or single missions. So, while I have'nt quite giving up on BoB, it definatley is a sore spot. I would have actually returned it and spent the $15 S&H to send BoB back to Britain (the last flight sim I returned was "Joint Strike Fighter"), if it had not been for the previous good reputation Empire has had with me, along with speedy & efficent patches. But this, if I brought it locally, I would have definately returned it. And that's very unusual for me.


Quad 9650 *
2 WD 160GB SATA, Raid 0 *
Two GTX 295, in quad *
*all water cooled by Koolance
8GB Corsair DDR3 @1600mhz
ASUS Striker 790i NSE
28" HannsG LCD
Audigy X Fi Fatal1ty Edition
1000kw Enermax PSU
Klipsch 5.1 Ultra
#738651 - 03/10/01 05:13 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 582
Jensen Offline
Neilist
Jensen  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 582
Give,Denmark
Silverswift, a few weeks ago I posted almost identically, lather removed it, out of
pure embarrassment. I agree compared to CFS2 BoB needs a lot of tweaking, I had a few CTD´s that can ruin the joy of playing this sim.
This is one huge mother of a sim, therefore it has its share of bugs some worse than others. Don´t give up on it, I´m sure most of it will be fixed. Hang on, this just might be the best sim I ever tried (tried most of them). The level of details are just astonishing.


------------------
Jensen.
"Stop that polish chit-chat, and steer 2-3-0!"


Jensen aka EAF331_Jens
"Stop that polish chatter, and steer 2-3-0!"

#738652 - 03/10/01 05:14 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 582
Jensen Offline
Neilist
Jensen  Offline
Neilist
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Posts: 582
Give,Denmark
Silverswift, a few weeks ago I posted almost identically, later removed it, out of
pure embarrassment. I agree compared to CFS2 BoB needs a lot of tweaking, I had a few CTD´s that can ruin the joy of playing this sim.
This is one huge mother of a sim, therefore it has its share of bugs some worse than others. Don´t give up on it, I´m sure most of it will be fixed. Hang on, this just might be the best sim I ever tried (tried most of them). The level of details are just astonishing.


------------------
Jensen.
"Stop that polish chit-chat, and steer 2-3-0!"


Jensen aka EAF331_Jens
"Stop that polish chatter, and steer 2-3-0!"

#738653 - 03/10/01 06:42 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, I think that CFS2 would´ve needed a bit of tweaking too. Of course BoB is not perfect. It has been rushed out too early, its framerates are too slow for what the game offers in the way of graphics (wouldn´t have happened with T&L support maybe) and the controls are not configured perfectly either (not to mention that the program doesn´t allow you to remap the keys). But in the respect of flight modelling (IMO), AI (including wingman behaviour), mission and campaign design it literally blasts CFS2 out of the sky. At the first glance it is an ugly duckling, but a swan at the second (or third at least).

#738654 - 03/10/01 07:01 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,031
Bader Offline
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Bader  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,031
Bletchingley, Surrey, UK
I may appear on some posts to be a Rowan plant, but I guess I love this game because I really wanted it to work.

OK, it didnt CTD or stutter for me, but finding CTFJ3, remapping my joystick keys (can be done on MSFFPro at least) and upgrading graphics cards could be thought of as pretty significant mods.

This game is so deep and challenging that I have forgiven the rough edges. Just watch the film BoB and then see which sim comes closest to the overall FEEL of July-September 1940...(not just the action sequences, but the effects of desperate struggle (RAF) /overwhelming self-confidence(Luftwaffe))

Silverswift, if you really are interested in getting this running, then there are a lot of friendly people on this forum who can offer help.


"Ah yes, Michael (Parkinson)," Bader replied, "But these Fockers were Messerschmitts..."

BDG BoB Developers Group: Eleven! years of passion for historical recreation of the Battle of Britain.
#738655 - 03/10/01 08:01 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,248
Tailspin Offline
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Tailspin  Offline
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Posts: 2,248
Metropolis,Ill USA
Silverswift...You are correct in your evaluation in many ways. Actually BoB the Sim doesn't really suck. It is by no means the masterpiece many suggest it is either. Beyond the software problems there are some issues with the basic flight model,the "heart" of any prop sim,and several gameplay bugs(NOT a big issue as bugs aren't uncommon in flightsims). Now...BoB the software has PROBLEMS. I wont go into them here as if you "shop around" on this forum you will find them all in detail. It all boils down,I think,to how much effort one is willing to spend "tweaking" to get BoB to run. I am a "middle of the roader" when it comes to this. I certainly don't fault anyone who believes a product should at least install and run as it is supposed to out of the box. After all we gave up the DOS-days long ago!
Now for CFS 2. All I can say is what many say about BoB...If you gave up on CFS 2 early on,then you have really missed out on a great sim also. It does what it "does" better and with fewer problems than BoB accomplishes "doing what its supposed to do".



------------------
Joke 'em if they can't take a ....


Joke em if they can't take a....
#738656 - 03/10/01 08:28 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,774
Cas141 Offline
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Cas141  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,774
Northern hemisphere
Silverswift.
If you are stuck with this sim and can't take it back then all you can hope for is a patch that will address these issues of CTD and stutter. Same as you can also hope for a jackpot win on the national lottery, judging
by a recent reply from "Rowan " when I asked about a patch.
If you can take it back, then I advise you may want to and await IL-2 which will, IMHO, obliterate this sim in every dept, except of course, if you want Spits , Hurris etc.
What Rowan don't seem to realise ( or care about?) is that a lot of people with high end systems, as yours (and mine ) is, are not committing themselves to BOB till the patch is out addressing the many problems shown on this forum. And if it isn't out before the time Il-2 Sturmovik is, then it will be too late.
IMHO, this BOB will go down in sim history as the one with most potential missed for want of some decent back up by the manufacturer/publisher

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Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#738657 - 03/10/01 10:01 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32
vonManstein Offline
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vonManstein  Offline
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Posts: 32
Portugal
Notepad never crashes, exits correctly, runs well on the most minimum of specs, so it must rock eh?

Well, gameplay is very important, not just stability.

Although BoB has been rock solid for me.

Oops, forgot the obligitory

[This message has been edited by vonManstein (edited March 10, 2001).]

#738658 - 03/11/01 12:56 AM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Bader:

Silverswift, if you really are interested in getting this running, then there are a lot of friendly people on this forum who can offer help.


*I'm* really interested in getting it to run, so let me ask again:

Is there any way of getting this sim to run without ridiculous stuttering on a

Duron 650
192Mb RAM
GeForce 2 GTS 32Mb

???

Short of buying $600 worth of new hardware and/or turning all graphics details to below EAW level, of course

Misha

#738659 - 03/11/01 01:40 AM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Switch off VSYNC using NvMax Geforce TNT tweak util (you can get it from 3dfiles.com)and set RENDER to 1 frame ahead. This removed the last bit of stutter from BOB for me, this fix has already been mentioned in another post on this forum.

#738660 - 03/11/01 04:22 AM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Try the 1050 detonator drivers. They gave me relatively stutter free performance in 32 bit colour. Other "fixes" that worked for me include running FRAPS, turning on cockpit reflections, disabling AGP fastwrites and disabling vertical sync.

I have a 64 meg Geforce 2 GTS.

#738661 - 03/11/01 09:51 AM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 831
rootango Offline
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rootango  Offline
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Posts: 831
everywhere
silverswift,

your complaint is ligitimate.

Rowan released an incomplete sim that "could have been a contender"

the main problems are,
- the stutter bug
- self repairing planes
- time/space hopping planes
- individual flightmodel problems with specific planes
- various grafix glitches with specific cards

but,

- a company like rowan makes a deliberate ruthless financial calculation, they knew/thought that enough people would buy it to provide a financial profit to them.
- they feel no urgency to fix the main bugs, and they might even have cornered themselves with buggy code, so that it would require a major rewrite to solve those issues (= they probably will never address them)

remember, they never solved the multiplayer bugs in mig alley either ( even if that was claimed to be a feature on the game box)

how to solve this ?
- obtain the source code and fix it ourselves
- promote some form of direct action against rowan
- publicise the problems, so others wont give rowan their money
- promote pirated versions of this product, so it reduces rowans profit
- go to the rowan office and ask for your money back ( since most software sellers dont allow you to return it)

remember, this product was released in nov-dec 2000, and it is now mid march 2001, there is not even official recognition by rowan that there is even a problem. and various splutters of (indirect)positive news is only aimed at reducing the heat of the critisism.

now walk over to your nearest window, open it, and yell out " I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANY LONGER"


------------------
i have seen the enemy,
and them is us.


Be advised, we got zips in the wire
#738662 - 03/11/01 05:13 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,336
CRASH - SimHQ Offline
Senior Member
CRASH - SimHQ  Offline
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Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,336
Antioch, CA
Just a note ... promoting piracy of anything on these boards will get you banned with no second chance.

------------------
Dan "CRASH" Crenshaw
President, SimHQ.com
crash@SimHQ.com
Author of "How to Live and Die in the Virtual Sky"
http://www.flightsimcentral.com/fsc/howtolivandd.html


Dan "CRASH" Crenshaw
Author of \"How to Live and Die in the Virtual Sky\"

100th AFW Buddy Boys
"We land on the fantail and drive to the wires"
#738663 - 03/11/01 07:38 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,223
Silverswift Offline
Member
Silverswift  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,223
Milwaukee WI
IMO, I think in many & worst ways, BoB suffers from what Jane's F-18 does; a game written on top of another game. Alot of companies, to save time and money with a sequel, just adds code to the existing engine, leaving the old game fairly intact underneath it. Sometimes it works, CFS2, (but again, I'm not a cheerleader for MS), and sometimes it doesn't, Janes F-18. C'mon! Is there anything really in that game that should make it run @ 1/4 the performance of F-15 on a given system? Now, I consider my self a loyal customer to a company that have proven it's loyalty to it's audience, such as Rowan (I was even loyal to Interactive Magic, right up to the end. Bought iF-22, War INC, that WW2 tank sim, and tried iF-18, all were completely terrible!). So, I really don't want to bash Empire/Rowan too much, but, of course they are completely responsible for the mess that is currently BoB. They say the minimum requirements a 233. At what, 640X480? You can't even read the gauges at that resolution. I didn't bother to list the many bugs I have found in my, say 12 hours of playing BoB (before the 100% ALT-X CTDs). But when dogfighting behind a fighter, I too have seen it appear to stop in mid air, pivot 30 degrees or so, and go in a 'nurther direction. At first I thought, "Man! That cat can really fly!" But after closer observation, I'm thinking the plane came straight from Area 51. What it is, of course, is a cheating AI to make up for flat spots in the AI code. MiG Alley had the best dogfighting AI I have ever seen, w/EAW second. I mean, even F4s AI cheats a little, but it doesn't completely ignore peoples ability to use common sense. I'm not saying that CFS2 is the see all be all of sims. A campaign of separate missions definitely doesn't work any more. But, the AI, IMO, doesn't cheat, and the physics are dead nuts. At least according to several WW2 pilots. The only pilot I ever heard of, and I was very skeptical of this, was here, and mentioned via a third party. The guy stated the guy said, who was a F-51 driver in Korea, BoB feels very realistic. I have all the settings at realistic, including the joystick thingie to sim. Well, in BoB, I never once encounter a spin, compressibility, a stall in the horizontal, or adverse reactions when switching off one engine, maxxing out the other, and doing rudder turns with opposite bank, in the 110; I could regain control very easily. Try it yourself.

Now, there's something wrong with that.


Quad 9650 *
2 WD 160GB SATA, Raid 0 *
Two GTX 295, in quad *
*all water cooled by Koolance
8GB Corsair DDR3 @1600mhz
ASUS Striker 790i NSE
28" HannsG LCD
Audigy X Fi Fatal1ty Edition
1000kw Enermax PSU
Klipsch 5.1 Ultra
#738664 - 03/11/01 08:15 PM Re: I came here to flame, and that's exactly what I'm doing!  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 735
DanW Offline
Member
DanW  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 735
Austin, TX
You fail to realize that it costs a tremendous amout of money to make a game. Flight sims do not sell well enough to justify the cost to make them. A good development team costs anywhere from 90k - 110k a month to keep staffed.

Games are built on top of other games because in some cases, that is the only way they will ever see the light of day.

You can't keep re-inventing the wheel each time you make a game....if you do, you won't wind up making very many games.


Hook'em Horns
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