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#694511 - 12/10/04 08:06 AM So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Toadvine Offline
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I have been thinking lately about this great sim and how it really needs to be resurrected by Sierra or who ever owns it these days. Are they going to let it languish forever?

Wouldn't RB3D be a great foundation to build a modern WW1 sim on? Wouldn't it be better than starting from scratch? Would it be possible to build on the existing Campaign bringing the graphics up to date, increasing the detail and maybe adding things like troop movements, 3D trenches more planes and weather?

I don't really understand why Sierra is just sitting on the sim. Why don't they start upgrading the game and release at least some add ons like IL2 does? If they don't think there is a market for a new upgraded RB3D why don't they sell it? What are they going to do, wait until the 100th anniversary of the great war before doing something with this sim?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#694512 - 12/10/04 11:22 AM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Ivor H Offline
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A few of us have said to Shockwave, who have got the rights to Rowan's BoB and MPS's B17 to do just this kind of makeover, that they should do the same for RB3d. The response has been some interest but nothing firm. There has to be some real commercial potential in adding a newer graphics engine to the sim with an unbeatable campaign engine. Hopefully Schockwave will do well with their present plans and they or someone will turn to RB3d.

Personally, thanks fo HASP, FCJ and WFP, and its excellent basic qualities, I still rate RB3d as the best propsim playable now and don't see that changing soon given that improvements tend to concentrate on graphics and do little in the departments where RB still shines. The new Dawn Patrol expansion for CFS3 looks like being really excellent but CFS3's campaign system, assuming it can be adapted well to WW1, is still strictly middling, so i'l still be playing RB as well as CFS3-WW1.


When you soar into the air in a Sopwith scout
And you're scrapping with a Hun and your gun cuts out
Well, you stuff down your nose till your plugs fall out
'Cos you haven't got a hope in the morning!
#694513 - 12/10/04 12:05 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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I must admit i was so disappointed in CFS3 that i gave my copy away and have never gone back, i have never even checked it out at with any of the current addons such as firepower etc. I played it out of the box, hated it and gave it away, lol. Pity cos i love CFS1 and 2.

#694514 - 12/10/04 02:38 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  

**DONOTDELETE**
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the biggest issues I see with a new WWI sim are...

1. Lack of interest... outside the RB community. Let's put it this way...little Johnny with his Xbox wants to fly Spiderman, not a Fokker Dr.1. Most households have console systems, not PC for gaming. Proof is the pathetic let down of a beautiful sim called Wings of War. Even if there is a plan, folks love the muscle and power of WW2 warbirds over the grace and paitence of canvas and wood.

2. Lack of knowledge. This is a huge issue. WWI in the sky was a lot bigger than we have seen. WFP gives a taste as to the level of detail needed. Over 100 planes at least to make it somewhat real. Other than that, they'll get stuck in a year or two of limited allocations and call it historic. We know that's not what we want again. Let's say... 'Airwar 1918', or 'WWI:1917', and that's all you'll see. WWI is huge, a lot bigger than WW2. Bold statement, I know, but technology grew so fast in that time period that is was status quo to remove planes after only 3 months service.

3. Poor support. Unfortunately for us, no-one outside our community, let alone in others, really knows anything about the history and beauty of WWI avaiation. Ask a WW2 simmer... name 2 pilots from WWI... Richthofen and Rickenbacker. Done. That's a huge problem. But like most have found out flying our patches... MAN! WWI was amazing!!

There are other reasons, but I believe these to be the main core of the issue.

I'm not being un-optomistic, if not pessimistic, but I do hope there will be a new WWI sim with today's technology that offer realism as well as historically accurate information.

Brgds!

OvS

#694515 - 12/10/04 04:07 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Good points here, but there are traces of what we in the flight sim hobby must be careful of.
What I mean is that we get too focused on some small area and demand that it is reproduced to the fullest degree, or the sim isn't authentic enough.!
OVS makes a good point in his para #1. He falls into the trap in para#2. If we want a new WW 1 sim we cannot demand of the dev that he produces at least 100 planes \:\) Or all theatres at once, etc !
Come on, we are asking other simmers to join us in WW1, so that the hobby grows;we should make sure that it is a sim which will attract them, not the Simon Sharmas of WW1. It is maybe something you would like OvS, but that's all it is - it isn't necessary for a good sim.
Dev's costs are of paramount importance.I suspect that is why KOE didn't get taken up, and why the potential of WOW wasn't fulfilled.
To make a WW1 sim of the depth of RB with new graphics terrains etc would probably be prohibitive from scratch- But a makeover is more than possible and viable, IMHO.
Shockwave are doing it with BOB and B17, a market, ( WW11, that is), frankly, over populated with sims. In my view, the canvas and wood era would be a bigger selling place.
It would be a better place for devs and the flight sim genre, for an important reason, not too often spoken of.
How many got to grips with flight sims by diving in with Falcon 4 or other sims with a steep learning curve.? I suppose a lot dipped into them but soon gave up. Fortunately for me i started with FCG and so it wasn't too hard to "crack it" , and the rest is history, as they say.
WW1 sims are easy to learn and will retain their buyers better- Something the market boys should consider!.
So, Come on Shockwave, go to work on RB3d, get trackir involved fully for up to date realism.
The 100 planes, areas and specialist interests can be offered as later add ons, so that the sim builds in modules. It will work BUT only if the basic, makeover, first effort is truly outstanding in terrain, FMs, AI.
And you do have your work cut out to make the latter two better than RB3d's present ones.
A wonderful sim which could be made glorious!


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#694516 - 12/10/04 10:26 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  

**DONOTDELETE**
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I know, so to appese the public, it would be

20 planes - flyable. The usual culprits. Ho-hum. Wake me when it gets good. Kind like Wings of War.

Personally, I was REFERENCING WFP, not suggesting it should be exactly like it. There should definately be more history involved, with more aces, and more depth. If it can be done in IL2:FB, and PF, why not in a new WWI flight sim. The reason that makes RB such a winner, and always will is the level of depth it tosses you in (once patched). You're a target low on the deck, and high in the clouds.

But as we have seen with so many previous WWI games... let's see... Wings of Glory, Wings, Kinghts of the Sky, Red Baron I, The Ancient Art Of War in the Skies (terrible), Dawn Patrol (the series) and Blue Max, it's always the same thing, same planes. Hence the boredom factor.

What if a sim came out with flyable 2-seaters, that you can ride in the MG position. I just finished Call of Duty: United Offensive and they had just that. You flew IN a B-17 as the gunner, running back and forth between the gunner positions. It was awesome!

Also, why not the Sieman's Shukerts (bad spelling, I know), and Aviatik Bergs. Why not all the other planes that have NEVER been seen in a sim, other than us modding them to add them in. It's what would mnke the game sellable. Even to a novice, to experiance WWI in a modern sim, you need the Pfalz E.I AND the Fokker E.I, you need to feel the difference between a 150HP Spad VII and the 180HP versions.

Todays gamers (simmers) demand more, not less. Look at all the modders out there that boost every game into a new version. Why not make something that is already complete? Honestly, we got lucky with RB3D as it was left wide open to mod without too much tinkering. You can't go back to the 'old style' and expect good reception from the public. The 'old style' was a small game, not much detail and based on graphics. it's time for something new and vast.

I'm on track. I've done the mod, I've asked the questions, and I know what people want. They're sick of the 'almost' sims when it comes to WWI, they want more. Even HASP doesn't do enough. I wanted to add 10 more planes, but it was just too difficult for my low-level programming skills. But if I could have, I would have.

So WFP is a model for the next WWI sim. Any company that doesn't see that is nuts, and again looking for the fast buck. I paid my $20 for the eye-candy of WOW, and now it's far from wow, it's deleted and shelved.

OvS

#694517 - 12/11/04 01:11 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Cas141 Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by OvS:
you need to feel the difference between a 150HP Spad VII and the 180HP versions.

OvS
No wonder flight sim's devs don't want to make sims.
How are we going to attract more into this hobby, when you think sims makers need to consider such sentiments a priority?

I too have recognized that WOW's potential has not been realized and now I do not fly it. I fly RB3d more than any other sim I have, because of its depth, yes, but more because of its FMs, AI, and easy- to- get- into-and-fly game play.
You do not need to be a flight sim expert to fly, fight (and survive). And so I quickly come to handle it , then enjoy it.
And from such a base, a newbie, having some success in simple missions where he really can pretend he is "flying" WW1 planes, will then go on to explore the sim.
But before he can explore the sim, he needs to be caught by it and "hooked"- That's what the realistic graphics, sounds, FM, DM gameplay, etc does. If he doesn't get hooked by this then it won't make a jot of difference that this plane or that plane is missing, or the engine is the wrong size!, or ultra specialist stuff like that.
That can come in add ons offered, as his interest grows. And he will foster that interest in the direction he wants to go, not the direction you want him to go.
I imagine i have as much interest as you in flight sims,( though you do more for the community than I do), but our emphases are different. I couldn't care much if a particular plane is not available for me to fly in a particular era - you do. Fine.
But don't make the mistake of thinking that it is important for everyone to have that belief. And unless they do, the sim won't succeed.

I think that the depth of RB3d is more than enough. If it was re-vamped in modern sim capabilities , it would be a best seller- no doubt.
And in closing, I really do think that the terrain, particularly no-mans-land in RB (Promised Land ) is better than WOWs terrain.

cheers


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#694518 - 12/11/04 01:29 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Ivor H Offline
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CFS3-WW1 has a very serious prospect of becoming a sim that wil rival RB3d. CFS3 supports flying as gunner and bombing. OK its campaign system is poor compared to RB3d's (aren't most?) and there will probably be some limitations eg I doubt balloons will be winched down under attack.

But it's open architecture will mean that it will take off rapidly. Many new planes are liable to be built for it. Single missions and campaigns of single missions are certainly possible, as will be "dynamic" campaigns using the CFS3 system. You want authentic FMs reflecting the diff between a 150hp and a 180HP Hispano-suiza? Well, look at the work of the 1% team with WW2 planes, they have a Swordfish flying and reckon the AI will cope fine with their FMs for WW1 planes.

Sure it won't have some of the stuff that makes RB3d great but it will doubtless have some good features of its own like flyable and gun-able 2-seaters. And outstanding graphics of both planes and environment.

I don't see me giving up RB3d but the new "Dawn Patrol" will be the next best thing, and a top notch "new" WW1 sim. Thanks to the efforts of Winding Man, Davo and the others who are there now or will contribute once this gets airborne in the next few months.


When you soar into the air in a Sopwith scout
And you're scrapping with a Hun and your gun cuts out
Well, you stuff down your nose till your plugs fall out
'Cos you haven't got a hope in the morning!
#694519 - 12/12/04 07:25 AM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Jagdpanzer Offline
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Comical that you guys post this, when the tiny WOW community is trying everthing we can by hook or crook to recruit some bright minds into helping us tweak WOW.

RB3D is on its last legs visually speaking, and all WOW needs is some of you GURUS to pitch in and lend a hand and make it what we are all looking for. Yeah, the campaign engine might not be a easy conversion, but if we can find a few more of you script experts we can without a doubt have custom missions, and therefore user made campaigns. Why beat a dead horse like RB3D( I love it but its true \:\( ) when WOW has a lot of possibility and the cutting edge graphics all us WWI sim fans want?

You want Siemens Schuckerts? You want Sopwith Dolphins? You want to fly an Aviatik? You can in WOW. Where the hell are you guys?




#694520 - 12/12/04 12:00 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Cas141 Offline
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Cas141  Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jagdpanzer:
Comical that you guys post this, when the tiny WOW community is trying everthing we can by hook or crook to recruit some bright minds into helping us tweak WOW.

Afraid I cannot help. I have no computing ability re what is required. Although I had initial enthusiasm, it is too far from a WW1 sim in too many respects. DM is good, but FM arecompletely portked and the mods on the FM have got it all wrong re stalls, positive G etc. etc

RB3D is on its last legs visually speaking,
Can't agree- The terrain looks more like the "vasty fields of France" than the so called Ypres etc of WOW. Nothing like the WW1 theatre. I see nothing wrong with RB No-Mans-Land area compared with WOW's

Yeah, the campaign engine might not be a easy conversion, but if we can find a few more of you script experts we can without a doubt have custom missions, and therefore user made campaigns.

Unfortunately, I see no progress on this , nor any mention of how near to being achieved. Wheras RBs missions , creation and editing of such is almost limitless

Why beat a dead horse like RB3D( I love it but its true \:\( ) when WOW has a lot of possibility and the cutting edge graphics all us WWI sim fans want?

But it is cutting edge graphics used wrongly. WOW is a game using lovely modelled WW1 aircraft put in topography that has no bearing on the WW1 theatre, as already said.- That is counter productive.

You want Siemens Schuckerts? You want Sopwith Dolphins? You want to fly an Aviatik? You can in WOW.
Not really important if the basics aren't right

Where the hell are you guys?

As I have said on other threads, if I had the ability to make "realistic" missions/campaign for WOW, I would. I thought there were guys there who could- but it seems not. Mind you, as long as the FMs and AI are as bad as they are, it is pointless, unless there is progress on those fronts as well. I like the wonderful FPS of the game and that TrackIR works with it. It is such a pity that it has those basic flaws.
And the fact that the devs don't attempt a "sim "version along the lines discussed may indicate that it can't be done?
Whatever, I wish you guys that are going to stick with it, the best of luck, I really do. Me? I'm hoping Shockwave or someone does a makeover on RB3d. But if it doesn't happen, it won'tbe a major setback. I have such wonderful immersion already



Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#694521 - 12/12/04 12:05 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Red Baron 3d isnt on its last legs, many have been saying that for years, its the sim that refuses to die.

The modding has no end in sight, one of the latest patches released last week has all new ways to elevate terrain, aka the Alps patch.

I can understand why WoW needs\wants modders, but the arcade feel to it may never go away. Sure Rb3d is arcade in some respects also, but gun upgrades? :rolleyes:

With the game selling as an arcade shooter with pretty grahpics, its likely many simmers will not even bother to look into the modding potential.

The WoW community will grow however, Im about to start flying it come x-mas. All I need is a DVD-Rom, but I know when I do start playing WoW I won't soon shelve RB away.

Once mods like a possible mission editor, talked about often on the WoW boards or new planes to replace the A-10 and F-22 slots are offered, I think too many will be drawn to other sims for greater immersion.

Hopefully WoW will get greater support in the months ahead.

#694522 - 12/12/04 02:42 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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LE Heureux Offline
Red Baron ESC 124
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NE Colorado USA
I agree that RB is by no means dead. The SP campaign is far and above superior to any other. One has the unmistakable impression there are air operations all along the front whether one is there to see them or nor. Exit upon being killed and fly the same mission repeatedly and it's different each time. I've never seen that anywhere else. And that's just SP.

MMP has plenty going on if you are in a squad and participate in any of the constantly in-progress tournaments.

The game engine may be dated, but there is such a thing as "good enough". The many upgrades available (most free) are good enough...


Au revoir en l'air...S!
Hex
#694523 - 12/13/04 06:35 AM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  

**DONOTDELETE**
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RB will never die. I say this with confidence as I know how deep the game is. When I started making Hell's Angels, it was just a homebrew I concocted because I was sick of adding in each plane, then the skins, then the effects...etc..etc.etc. But it was then I realized just how deep the detail is in RB. It is truthfully just about limitless. I changed so many things using UOP4.5 as a base to get me started. It was amazing. The doors were wide open to add as many historical aspects as I could find. As HA grew, the desire to better it did as well. Folks asked me if I could add this, and add that, and could we see some of this and some of that... and I could do it with RB's format. With more skins, more squadrons, more attention to detail and more variety. Once Shredward jumped on board, we really ran the train at full speed. HA boasts the most variety per aircraft type than ANY WWI sim or game ever made. There are over 17 diferent wing styles for the Alb D.Va alone! That is what makes RB so deep. I was able to make seperate wing skins for aces, Jastas, squadrons...etc. It was great. Add-in the point that Cas made about missions, campaigns and all the rest and you have one hellouva lot of stuff to play with. \:\)

To this day, this aspect alone has not been duplicated. It's only drawback to the skin mapping was the lack of a right-side fuselage assignment, and that couls have been corrected on the SWWISA as we see with BvH's designs. Other than that, the combinations are nearly unlimited.

I'm not boasting HA, but more of what you can do with the RB format. I know a lot of modders out there of sims can do alot, but how much of it involves 4 areas, and as many squadron, plane assignments, time frames...etc that RB uses. None. Not with the detail that we are fortunate enough to enjoy with this remarkable SIM... not game... SIM. I still see a future for RB. Programmers know about it, and have got to consider it when looking for new ideas for a future WWI sim. Maybe someday, we'll see something new, but honestly... graphically better yes.... but gameplay... that will be tough to beat.

Brgds!

OvS

BTW... the only sim I know that can be modded with the depth that RB can be is Panzer Elite. Those guys really did a fantastic job on that sim.

#694524 - 12/13/04 06:41 AM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Toadvine Offline
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RB3D dead? Point me to the sim that killed it, because I would love to fly that one! Until there is a WW1 combat sim that can begin to approach the Baron in scope and realism, it will never die. The more I see what kind of sims are released these days, and the more I play RB3D, the more I believe that the sim will never be surpassed. At least not in the forseeable future.

That is why I would like to see the owners of RB3D cut loose with the code, or mod it and expand it themselves, or sell the rights to the game, or something. I don't see anyone building a sim like the Baron from scratch. Concerning WW1 combat sims, the game is one in a million.

#694525 - 12/13/04 11:00 AM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Cas141 Offline
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Cas141  Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Toadvine:


That is why I would like to see the owners of RB3D cut loose with the code, or mod it and expand it themselves, or sell the rights to the game, or something. I don't see anyone building a sim like the Baron from scratch. Concerning WW1 combat sims, the game is one in a million.
Well said, and I hope the right people read this ;\) .
Just as a shameless plug, there is a possibility of a great expansion for RB3d. See the thread about trackIR progress.
Also, right click on the link below and save as Target. (It won't run by streaming ) It is a video showing a biplane with the new trackir viewing system. Imagine this in Red Baron!
With enough push by us, we might be able to achieve this.

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~hotdognz/Files/fs96DOF.wmv

cheers


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#694526 - 12/13/04 06:42 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Anonymous
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I think there will be a few guys that will always play this, as for me I will remember this game untill 2001 when I didnt play it as much as I changed from a voodoo card, I have tried a few months back with all the mods terrain, and it just isnt the same, at least online, the fm,s are terrible and for me now, online is the most important thing.

#694527 - 12/14/04 09:42 AM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Cas141 Offline
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Cas141  Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RizzBird1_123uk:
the fm,s are terrible


What WW1 sim do you fly where the FMs are OK?

To me one of the best features of RB
are the FMs!


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#694528 - 12/14/04 12:00 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Double_Tap Offline
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Double_Tap  Offline
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Cas, I came to this thread to post a link to the video of the Moth in action and see that you have beaten me to it. It is truly awesome to think of this being implemented in a WW1 sim. I think the first one to do so will reap the benefits.

As sims develop, they become very complex. You need to outlay a lot of money and time to get the best out of a sim like IL-2 or Falcon 4 with HOTAS, pedals and TrackIR.

The beauty of WW1 is its simplicity. Combined with a TrackIR with 6DOF you could fly a WW1 sim with the simplest of joysticks and be just as good as someone with a complex HOTAS/pedals system.
The learning curve is easier as well.

This video has given me great hope that developers will see the possibilities that WW1 has to offer and will be more inclined to make the commitment to give us something special.

~E!~
D_T


Gigabyte GA-Z77X UDH-3, i7 2600K, 16GB Corsair Dominator DDR3, GeForce GTX 680 2GB.
Saitek Rudder Pedals
Cougar Hotas #08970 U2 #20
Thrustmaster Warthog
TrackIr 4 Pro
Windows 7 64 bit
#694529 - 12/14/04 02:19 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  

**DONOTDELETE**
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We tried, several times to get the code from Sierra Dynamix. For whatever reason, they simply denied it, thinking about roylaties or whatever greed factor was involved. Now that S/D is effectively gone, we'll most likely never see it.

There were a lot of things taken out of RB3D that were in RBII, that alone angered folks when they upgraded to the 3D version. For YEARS we tried to get an inside contact to slip it out the back, then we went for the forward approach...etc...etc... no luck.

If you look at KOE, you will see the similarities between RB and KOE. Apparently, some (1 or 2) of the original developers that were on the RB3D team were a part of that mod. So that was our last hope in seeing a new RB format.

We did the best we could, but alas, the doors were always shut. Not sure why, but that's the way it goes. What would be great is to have someone that can thoroughly understand machine language reverse engineer the code of RB3D... but that could take an eternity.

Brgds!

OvS

#694530 - 12/14/04 04:59 PM Re: So, what will become of Red Baron 3D?  
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Toadvine Offline
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Someone somewhere owns the right to the old sim. That means someone, somewhere has the power to make some kind of move in some direction regarding the sim. How does anyone profit from sitting on it? I can understand not wanting to give it away, but I don't understand just storing it in a vault where it is doing no one any good at all. Maybe they think it will increase in value like a stock.

It is almost like the sim has been forgotten and anyone who was ever associated with it has drifted off leaving it unattended. Where are old games generally kept when they are stored, on a hard drive? RB3D is on some ancient mainframe computer stored in an abandon building somewhere out on the Microsoft campus. Once a year when MS takes inventory the old building is unlocked, the lights turned on and some intern with a clipboard walks through making note of the serial numbers on all these old computers. When he's done he turns the light off, locks the door and leaves...

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